Beechen interview

[elias_A]

From an Beechen interview at wizarduniverse.com:

" I understand that people are shocked by the change in Batgirl, and I totally sympathize with that.(...)
He's still Robin. Most of the changes that affected him through "One Year Later" happened with the Batgirl story. Now that that's over with, we get to have more fun playing him as a 17-year-old and playing him as a realistic kid. "


Sounds to me like Cass will not be appearing in Robin anymore, which would destroy the theory she was turned evil to create a (lame) villain for Robin.

My speculation is that Cass will appear in Morrison's Batman, maybe with twists like the Xorn/Magneto thing in New X-men.

[OverMaster]

My speculation is that Cass will appear in Morrison's Batman, maybe with twists like the Xorn/Magneto thing in New X-men.

My speculation is she'll be kicked down to limbo now and maybe be killed off in one year or two. Yay DC. :rolleyes:

I don't see Morrison being interested on writing this mangled version of Cassandra.

[Damo]

From an Beechen interview at wizarduniverse.com:

" I understand that people are shocked by the change in Batgirl, and I totally sympathize with that.(...)
He's still Robin. Most of the changes that affected him through "One Year Later" happened with the Batgirl story. Now that that's over with, we get to have more fun playing him as a 17-year-old and playing him as a realistic kid. "


Sounds to me like Cass will not be appearing in Robin anymore, which would destroy the theory she was turned evil to create a (lame) villain for Robin.

My speculation is that Cass will appear in Morrison's Batman, maybe with twists like the Xorn/Magneto thing in New X-men.

Is that all that he said? If so... wow. Way to fail to address the issue.

[Nick Kal]

Ahaha... He's awesome.

[Jeff F]

My speculation is she'll be kicked down to limbo now and maybe be killed off in one year or two. Yay DC. :rolleyes:


Or she'll be featured in Teen Titans...

Let's see which one of us is right:)

[Damo]

Ahaha... He's awesome.

So you've basically gone from politely having a difference of opinion with the pro-Cass crowd to derisive laughter. Interesting progression Nickie.

[Sizzle]

I would guess he was only doing what he was told with Cass, probably was not his decision to make her bad.

It would seem she may show up in Morrison's run as it deals with thing's relating to Ra's and his family. However, she could just be out right ignored by Morrison. I'm of the feeling that Morrison will be brining Ra's back though.

[Damo]

I would guess he was only doing what he was told with Cass, probably was not his decision to make her bad.


A big part of people's beef with Cass's turn has to do with how it was done. A lot of people defend him, going "I really hate this story, but I guess it might be DC editorial's fault". But come on, the worst parts of this were things that there's just no way they ordered him to do. Bludhaven, the place filled with everyone she cared about, got blown up, so a lot of people expected her to turn into a villain killer. Now DC might have given him a memo that said "Make Batgirl head of the League of Assassins".

But there's no way they sent him a memo that said:

1) Have an unarmed Robin beat up and hogtie David Cain, with nothing but sheer kungfu badassness.

2) Ignore that story that ended one month ago, where she knew she had "siblings" and didn't care. There was a scene where she was protecting a mass murderer from one of those siblings, and Cass ended up dying at the hands of that sibling because she refused to use lethal force. We basically want you to have her act in a way that completely contradicts that, for no real reason.

3) For that matter, ignore the destruction of Bludhaven one month ago. Make her turn evil because she's so jealous that Cain trained another kid. Don't have Cass or Tim mention the destruction of Budhaven, even though the last time they saw one another they working side by side to save the people in that city. When Cass starts talking about killing villains, don't have Master Detective Tim ask if it has anything to do with Bludhaven, that would make too much sense. Just don't mention that city at all.

4) When she tries to convince Tim to join her, she should totally use lines like "Batman is happy Spoiler and your dad are dead. It makes it easier to control you." Try to completely destroy any sympathy the reader may have for her.

5) Oh, and all those stories about her not being able to read or write, and her having trouble talking... could you retcon them away? Say that she knew how to read and write, and Batman taught her navajo too.

6) And her whole quiet shy speach pattern. It's not working for us. Have her make her give long speaches, all that stuff with her having trouble talking was annoying. We want lots of drama queen gesturing too. That should about do it Adam, good luck with your new book!



Come on. DC might deserve the blame for the idea of Cassandra being a killer, but there's no way they told Beechen to do all the things that made this story unredeemably stupid.

[jerrymcl89]

What I take from the interview is that DC has already realized that what they did with Cass was a failure, and they are going to back away from it, and we won't see her for quite a while.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So you've basically gone from politely having a difference of opinion with the pro-Cass crowd to derisive laughter. Interesting progression Nickie.

Ignore Nick, he´s just trolling.


I am really sorry to see the blatant disregard with which Cass´fans were treated in this matter.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What I take from the interview is that DC has already realized that what they did with Cass was a failure, and they are going to back away from it, and we won't see her for quite a while.

Oh, i´m sure of that, throw Cass into neverwhere, gotta make room for Lesbat.

[Jeff F]

Oh, i´m sure of that, throw Cass into neverwhere, gotta make room for Lesbat.

Except for that upcoming Teen Titans story.

I'm excited!

Johns' Titans has been hot OYL!

[Leslie Lee III]

So you've basically gone from politely having a difference of opinion with the pro-Cass crowd to derisive laughter. Interesting progression Nickie.

Climb down off that cross sometime. Beechen did have an amusing line:

WU: Now, we have to talk Robin, which everyone on staff has really been enjoying.

BEECHEN: It's good to hear you say that. I am the man who ruined Batgirl for the entire world apparently. [Laughs]

[Nick Kal]

Agreed, Leslie.

I also love how there are numerous Cassandr Cain fans who are so upset that they've decided Batwoman will be a terrible character before anything has been done with her and have even felt titles like "Lesbat" are appropriate. Good job, guys!

[jerrymcl89]

I don't really care one way or another about Batwoman. At the moment, all I really know about her is that she's a lesbian, and yet another Batperson. Neither of those things is much of a positive or a negative, imo ('yet another Batperson' being more of a negative). If she's a worthless character or the best character in DC history, neither will make Cass's story any better.

[Damo]

I'm reserving judgement on Batwoman until I see more of her. It's very early in the game. But I won't pretend I'm optimistic. The first official word on her was basically just "there's a new Batwoman, and she's a lipstick lesbian". That does not inspire confidence that they will take the high road with the character over time. But, like I said, it's too early to know what the character will be like.

And I'm sure you have a lovely view of my cross from that high horse of yours, Leslie. Get any nosebleeds up there?

[Nick Kal]

From the interview that DiDio gave on Batwoman, I have faith they'll do right by her.

[Constantine Drakon]

Climb down off that cross sometime. Beechen did have an amusing line:

*Adjusts glasses.* I'm definitely one of the people that don't like what Beechen did to Cass, and I definitely put more blame on him than DC editorial. As people have said, the story sucked thanks largely to what looked like a blatant lack of research into Cassandra.

But I'm not so seething with fury that I can't look at the interview objectively. And looking at the interview objectively, no, he wasn't funny. He made the kinds of knee-jerk quips that get politicians mocked on The Daily Show. Bad attempts to brush away problems with jokes that aren't funny. "I am the man who ruined Batgirl for the entire world apparently." Not funny. And I don't say that as an insulted fan. He just didn't seem like a funny man at all in the interview. He actually seemed really boring, which is strange for a guy whose previous work experience seems to be all along the lines of "Fairly Odd Parents" novelizations and "Justice League Unlimited" comics.

[Leslie Lee III]

He made the kinds of knee-jerk quips that get politicians mocked on The Daily Show. Bad attempts to brush away problems with jokes that aren't funny.

Comparing a comic book writer to people who run the most powerful nation in the world? This forum is a constant lesson on the importance of perspective. If George W. Bush just wrote screenplays then the Daily Show would be a pathetic and pointless waste of time.

[Nick Kal]

*Adjusts glasses.* I'm definitely one of the people that don't like what Beechen did to Cass, and I definitely put more blame on him than DC editorial. As people have said, the story sucked thanks largely to what looked like a blatant lack of research into Cassandra.

But I'm not so seething with fury that I can't look at the interview objectively. And looking at the interview objectively, no, he wasn't funny. He made the kinds of knee-jerk quips that get politicians mocked on The Daily Show. Bad attempts to brush away problems with jokes that aren't funny. "I am the man who ruined Batgirl for the entire world apparently." Not funny. And I don't say that as an insulted fan. He just didn't seem like a funny man at all in the interview. He actually seemed really boring, which is strange for a guy whose previous work experience seems to be all along the lines of "Fairly Odd Parents" novelizations and "Justice League Unlimited" comics.

Oh please... :rolleyes:

Not only has Beechen ruined Batgirl, and not only is he not funny in the least, but he might also be a Satan worshipper. Let's make sure that we criticize everything he does and hate him!!!

Batgirl 4 EVAR!!!1!!111!

[elias_A]

I don't see Morrison being interested on writing this mangled version of Cassandra.

I suspect the evil Cass was Morrison's idea from the start. Doesn't he have editorial powers now?

On second thoughts: I realise that's an really ugly accusation. Benefit of doubt and all that...
Please, Mr. Morrison, I did not want to start a rumor that you were capable of such a horrible thing! :)

[Damo]

Oh please... :rolleyes:

Not only has Beechen ruined Batgirl, and not only is he not funny in the least, but he might also be a Satan worshipper. Let's make sure that we criticize everything he does and hate him!!!

Batgirl 4 EVAR!!!1!!111!

Nickie, I'm looking back, and I don't see anyone knocking "everything he does". Nobody's knocked his previous stuff. Obviously he was pretty good at Teen Titans Go and Fairly Oddparents if they entrusted Robin with him. All that's been said is that his Robin arc was bad, and his interview wasn't funny and didn't shed any new light on what happened with Batgirl. That's all.

And Leslie, while I wouldn't have chosen to use it as an analogy myself, the Daily Show has never limited itself to mocking important politicians, the folks running the show are quite happy mocking any idiot they spot. But all Drakon said was that Beechen's joke was the sort of lame joke politicians make. It's not how I would put it, but I see the similarities there.

[Leslie Lee III]

And Leslie, while I wouldn't have chosen to use it as an analogy myself, the Daily Show has never limited itself to mocking important politicians, the folks running the show are quite happy mocking any idiot they spot. But all Drakon said was that Beechen's joke was the sort of lame joke politicians make. It's not how I would put it, but I see the similarities there.

I think the analogy got at the heart of the matter. The comments from politicians deserve to be mocked on the Daily Show because they don't address the seriousness of the actual issue. Comparing Beechen's comment to it shows that people think that their complaints about Batgirl are as important and serious a cause as war, AIDS, world hunger, abortion, gay marriage, civil rights, seperation of church and state, and everything else that actually matters.

He's well within his rights to laugh you off (and many other writers would more inclined to tell you off). Politicians shouldn't be laughing off the things Jon Stewart rubs his eyes at and the fact that people don't understand the massive difference in scope is pretty hilarious in its own right. You think the Daily Show wouldn't mock a crusade to "save" a fictional comic book character?

[Constantine Drakon]

...I just meant it was a really lame joke. He wasn't funny, that's all I was saying. Bad analogy, but a bad joke too.

[OverMaster]

Oh please... :rolleyes:

Not only has Beechen ruined Batgirl, and not only is he not funny in the least, but he might also be a Satan worshipper. Let's make sure that we criticize everything he does and hate him!!!

Batgirl 4 EVAR!!!1!!111!

I take my hat off to your awesomely mature level of debating. :rolleyes:

[Leslie Lee III]

2) Ignore that story that ended one month ago, where she knew she had "siblings" and didn't care. There was a scene where she was protecting a mass murderer from one of those siblings, and Cass ended up dying at the hands of that sibling because she refused to use lethal force. We basically want you to have her act in a way that completely contradicts that, for no real reason.

If stuff like this is part of your crusade against Beechen, then I need to sort you out. You know James Robinson? Continuity freak who handled JSA and Starman (which were rich with history), well he just wrote the "Face the Face" storyarc running through Batman and Detective. Well at the end of that story Batman asks to adopt Tim, and TIm responds by breaking down and crying in his arms. Okay, let's ignore the fact that Tim is 17 years old and him accepting Bruce's request (especially in that way) makes little sense on any real world level. Let's look at the fact that just recently in "Robin" Bruce made the same request and Robin went to ridiculious lengths to prevent it from being a possibility (he invented a fake Uncle to take custody of him). Was this mentioned in "Face the Face"? Not that I noticed, they acted like it was the first time Bruce had asked.

Now does this mean I should go around insulting Robinson's intelligence and accusing him of not caring? Or is this obviously something that DC probably handed down at the top? Given this, does it make sense for you to attack Beechen as a writer for this when it's quite likely it wasn't his decision at all?

[elias_A]

If stuff like this is part of your crusade against Beechen, then I need to sort you out. You know James Robinson? Continuity freak who handled JSA and Starman (which were rich with history), well he just wrote the "Face the Face" storyarc running through Batman and Detective. Well at the end of that story Batman asks to adopt Tim, and TIm responds by breaking down and crying in his arms. Okay, let's ignore the fact that Tim is 17 years old and him accepting Bruce's request (especially in that way) makes little sense on any real world level. Let's look at the fact that just recently in "Robin" Bruce made the same request and Robin went to ridiculious lengths to prevent it from being a possibility (he invented a fake Uncle to take custody of him). Was this mentioned in "Face the Face"? Not that I noticed, they acted like it was the first time Bruce had asked.

Now does this mean I should go around insulting Robinson's intelligence and accusing him of not caring? Or is this obviously something that DC probably handed down at the top? Given this, does it make sense for you to attack Beechen as a writer for this when it's quite likely it wasn't his decision at all?


You really think this is on a similar level of ignoring continuity? The adoption of Tim didn't really change the relationship of Bruce and Tim that much, and certainly did not change their characters. On the other hand, it is a rather extreme difference, in my opinion, if Cass protects human lives at any cost or kills people out of petty motives.

Maybe it would have been better if Robinson had made Bruce say something like "I know I already proposed this last year, but things have changed, and you had time to think...", but I don't blame him for not doing it, you cannot expect perfect continuity, and constant references to the past would become more and more confusing and make stories unreadable.

But I expect an acknowledgement of continuity when a character whose own series ended just a few months ago, who certainly had not disappeared into obscurity, is changed so much it becomes unrecognisable. Or at least they could have said frankly, sorry, we chose to ignore the last issues of Batgirl (or all of them, more correctly).

Do I blame Beechen or the editors for this? I don't know. If Beechen just got the order "turn Batgirl into a killer" he certainly did a terrible job. But I honestly cannot imagine him not reading at least the last few issues of Batgirl, or not realising his characterisation of Cass does neither respect her backstory nor her fans.

So I (totally optimistically) see this as small evidence for the mind-control/ evil twin theories.

About Beechen's joke: If you know you did ruin Batgirl, and don't feel really guilty, how else would you react than with a joke like this?
I, for my part, thought him offering sympathy to us Batgirl fans was a small but kind gesture.

[jerrymcl89]

If stuff like this is part of your crusade against Beechen, then I need to sort you out. You know James Robinson? Continuity freak who handled JSA and Starman (which were rich with history), well he just wrote the "Face the Face" storyarc running through Batman and Detective. Well at the end of that story Batman asks to adopt Tim, and TIm responds by breaking down and crying in his arms. Okay, let's ignore the fact that Tim is 17 years old and him accepting Bruce's request (especially in that way) makes little sense on any real world level. Let's look at the fact that just recently in "Robin" Bruce made the same request and Robin went to ridiculious lengths to prevent it from being a possibility (he invented a fake Uncle to take custody of him). Was this mentioned in "Face the Face"? Not that I noticed, they acted like it was the first time Bruce had asked.


"Face the Face" didn't do a very good job of explaining why Tim's reaction was different this time (or, as you say, even acknowledging that this was not the first time), but in the larger picture of what is going on with Tim, I think it can be reasonably extrapolated. Bruce's first offer came very shortly after Jack Drake's death, and Tim likely didn't feel comfortable simply choosing a "new Dad". And since then, he's been through the death of Conner, his best friend, the destruction of his home in Bludhaven, and the near-disollution of the Titans. It's not very hard to fill in the blanks as to why he'd be more accepting of a new family life.

Filling in the blanks of how Cass gets from point A to point B is, well, a challenge. :(

[Jeff F]

"Face the Face" didn't do a very good job of explaining why Tim's reaction was different this time (or, as you say, even acknowledging that this was not the first time), but in the larger picture of what is going on with Tim, I think it can be reasonably extrapolated. Bruce's first offer came very shortly after Jack Drake's death, and Tim likely didn't feel comfortable simply choosing a "new Dad". And since then, he's been through the death of Conner, his best friend, the destruction of his home in Bludhaven, and the near-disollution of the Titans. It's not very hard to fill in the blanks as to why he'd be more accepting of a new family life.

Filling in the blanks of how Cass gets from point A to point B is, well, a challenge. :(

Not really. It all depends on whether or not you like the change.

Obviously, the change made to Cass is much larger than the Adopton of Tim scene, but it still ignores past continuity.

[Jeff F]

Now does this mean I should go around insulting Robinson's intelligence and accusing him of not caring? Or is this obviously something that DC probably handed down at the top? Given this, does it make sense for you to attack Beechen as a writer for this when it's quite likely it wasn't his decision at all?

I believe the point being made by others is that they don't like the way that the whole affair was handled. Such is their right. And of course Beechen is to blame for his writing, he did write it.

[Leslie Lee III]

You really think this is on a similar level of ignoring continuity? The adoption of Tim didn't really change the relationship of Bruce and Tim that much, and certainly did not change their characters.

They just did a story where Bruce asks to adopt Tim. Tim goes through great lengths to prevent this from even being an option.

Now we have a story where Batman asks to adopt Tim and he acts like he was desperate for it to happen.

I can't believe anyone would even attempt to argue against that not ignoring continuity.

you cannot expect perfect continuity, and constant references to the past would become more and more confusing and make stories unreadable.

I agree, but it's completely irrelevant to my point. You can't sit there and call Beechen an idiot who doesn't read the past comics when you have an example of Robinson doing the same thing and we know he's a continuity buff.

I believe the point being made by others is that they don't like the way that the whole affair was handled. Such is their right. And of course Beechen is to blame for his writing, he did write it.

Again, you're missing the point that it might not have been his decision to write it or how it was written. People certainly have less room to personally attack him and accuse of not knowing anything about Batgirl, when there's another example of DC blatantly ignoring recent stories in order for OYL changes.

[PersonaDark]

You know, I never understood why people act like following continuty isn't important, Writers and editors either kissing your ass to your face while stabbing you in the back or making like being a fan is the same as being "Fanboy" which has somehow become a curse word. And what really irks me is when writers go on a soap box avoiding responiblity for turning out crappy work and making it someone else fault, practically saying "Screw you for not liking what I wrote, you're just a fanboy and Fanboys are never happy no matter what is written. But buy more of my stuff please."

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I feel like a writer should have such pride and intergity in their work that they would refuse to throw out something that makes you look like a hack. That you should research and discuss your project with others to make sure you have details right before you turn in a final draft. I also think Editors should be the Quality control they are meant to be, not acting like wannabe Emperors trying to force the writer to write THEIR view or fantasy. Especially if it lets them be lazy and ignore facts or retcon something just to get their way.

[Sean Whitmore]

They just did a story where Bruce asks to adopt Tim. Tim goes through great lengths to prevent this from even being an option.


And that was one year ago. Right there on the cover. :)


Again, you're missing the point that it might not have been his decision to write it or how it was written.


Let's just say none of it was Breechen's decision, just for the sake of argument. Who gets the blame? We can't blame the editors for the very same reason, we don't know how much of it was their doing.

Readers want someone to vent at. The story didn't just congeal from out of the collective unconsciousness.


SEAN

[Leslie Lee III]

Readers want someone to vent at.

Readers want lots of things, and many of them are as illogical and assinine as this. If you don't know who to blame, blame no one. I know, not within the realm of traditional fandom logic but it could work. It's better than smearing the name of a guy who could have just been following orders just like all you fanlings would if you had even half a shot at writing for DC or Marvel.

Again, I'm saying this against people attacking him as a writer for not following this or that continuity point. If you actually have some legitimate beef with his writing technique, go ahead and criticize that but I haven't seen much of that.

[Sean Whitmore]

If you don't know who to blame, blame no one.


Yeah, but they WANT to. So they're GOING to, regardless of your views on it.

Breechen's name is on the thing, so he gets that blame.

And you're free to defend his work just as much as others decry it. Just realize that nobody's going to knock it off because there's an infinitesimal chance that Breechen had nothing to do with anything and the story was completely written by editors.

Otherwise, nobody should ever badmouth a singer, director, novelist, whatever, because maybe it was the fault of their producer or publisher.


SEAN

[PersonaDark]

Readers want lots of things, and many of them are as illogical and assinine as this. If you don't know who to blame, blame no one. I know, not within the realm of traditional fandom logic but it could work. It's better than smearing the name of a guy who could have just been following orders just like all you fanlings would if you had even half a shot at writing for DC or Marvel.

Again, I'm saying this against people attacking him as a writer for not following this or that continuity point. If you actually have some legitimate beef with his writing technique, go ahead and criticize that but I haven't seen much of that.

Why blame no one? Wouldn't it be worse to congradulate him by blindly buying anything put out? And if he had done a good job, no one would smear him without sounding like they were just don't like change.

And personally? If I was writing for Marvel or DC and the Editor said to do something that I knew was either stupid or insulted the fans of said character, I'd refuse even at the threat of firing or losing the issue to someone else. Not only out of intergity, but you'll be more respected by the fans because it shows you give a damn about the character.

[Leslie Lee III]

Yeah, but they WANT to. So they're GOING to, regardless of your views on it.

I'm sure most will. I'm just saying it's unjustified and giving reasons why.

Otherwise, nobody should ever badmouth a singer, director, novelist, whatever, because maybe it was the fault of their producer or publisher.

I think things are a little more concrete here. We know DC is using OYL to set up the universe how they see fit right now, whatever came before be damned. This seems like a higher up decision than Beechen.

[Sean Whitmore]

I think things are a little more concrete here. We know DC is using OYL to set up the universe how they see fit right now, whatever came before be damned. This seems like a higher up decision than Beechen.


I agree that editorial is nudging things the way they want to go. But from what I've read, everyone's accepting that the idea was theirs, and blaming Breechen for how he portryed it.


SEAN

[elias_A]

They just did a story where Bruce asks to adopt Tim. Tim goes through great lengths to prevent this from even being an option.

Now we have a story where Batman asks to adopt Tim and he acts like he was desperate for it to happen.

I can't believe anyone would even attempt to argue against that not ignoring continuity.



I agree, but it's completely irrelevant to my point. You can't sit there and call Beechen an idiot who doesn't read the past comics when you have an example of Robinson doing the same thing and we know he's a continuity buff.



Again, you're missing the point that it might not have been his decision to write it or how it was written. People certainly have less room to personally attack him and accuse of not knowing anything about Batgirl, when there's another example of DC blatantly ignoring recent stories in order for OYL changes.


First, I did not call him an idiot. I think we should stay polite, whatever we think of the story. And it is the quality of the STORY I want to discuss.

What I tried to say is that in minor cases (like Tim's adoption) it is OK not to reference small continuity problems;
but the BIG problems like Cass turning evil are a different thing, because they totally change the way readers will view a character, they even make huge problems for readers who want to enjoy reading the OLD stories again without forcing themselves to forget the new continuity.

Do you assume Robinson was forced not to reference the first offer of adoption? I think he probably decided himself not to do this to keep the story simpler.

We all know that Beechen had editorial orders, but I think we certainly can speculate if that included details like Cass' crazy motivation. In any case, the author of a story can not expect to shrug off all criticism by saying "I was forced to do it". But of course we should not insult him.

And as I said above, I suspect the one really to blame is Morrison. :)

[Nick Kal]

I take my hat off to your awesomely mature level of debating. :rolleyes:

Haha.. screw mature when you have fanboys and damo whining about this shit non stop... like in 7 threads. Thanks.

[Sean Whitmore]

Haha.. screw mature when you have fanboys and damo whining about this shit non stop... like in 7 threads. Thanks.


Yeah, you've got the moral highground here. Sure.


SEAN

[Damo]

Haha.. screw mature when you have fanboys and damo whining about this shit non stop... like in 7 threads. Thanks.

I could have sworn I whined in more than 7 threads. Still, good point there Nickie, I guess we'd better tone it down a notch. Wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression, like that this is the Batman board and she was a major member of Batman's cast that just underwent a huge change.

Anyway, back to the interview, because the parts about Cass really were the tiniest part of it.



WIZARD: Looking at the stories coming up, it looks like there are some tales utilizing other DC characters. After spending so much time on a non-continuity book, are you raring to get into the main DCU?

BEECHEN: Yes, and let me tell you why. Having other characters from the DCU in the book give me even more of a chance to explore Robin. I get to see how Robin relates to those characters and how he interacts with heroes his own age in the case of the Teen Titans and heroes that are a generation ahead of him like Batman or Superman. In seeing how he reacts to those characters, I learn more about Tim. So having Captain Boomerang show up in Robin, gives me a chance to explore Robin's perspective on what Nightwing is doing at any given time and what he feels about Nightwing's teammates [in the Outsiders] and choice of methods. Having Klarion the Witchboy showing up gives me a chance to explore Robin's attitude towards the idea of witchcraft and mysticism in the DCU, because he deals so much with the streets of Gotham. So in that respect, having the chance to bring in more characters from the DCU makes me very excited.


So it sounds like Klarion is a go. I'd heard the name as a rumor, but this seems pretty much like confirmation. Of course it's possible I missed a solicit and this is old news...

[Damo]

tch, double post.

[Nick Kal]

Yeah, you've got the moral highground here. Sure.


SEAN

Like I care...

[Babylon23]

You know, I lot of people are attacking Beechum, but if you read the interview, you'll find the following:

We feel that Tim has been an awfully grim character for a long time." Which is true. He's had an awful lot of bad things happen to him. Then they said, "And by the way, in the first storyline his good friend turns evil."

Now this to me says that the idea of turning Cassandra evil came from editorial, and Beechum ran with it. I can understand that people are upset that one of their favourite characters suddenly became a bad guy (I experienced the same thing with the Scarlet Witch), but I'm not sure that Beechum is to blame for the decision

[Sean Whitmore]

Now this to me says that the idea of turning Cassandra evil came from editorial, and Beechum ran with it. I can understand that people are upset that one of their favourite characters suddenly became a bad guy (I experienced the same thing with the Scarlet Witch), but I'm not sure that Beechum is to blame for the decision


To be fair, the majority of the people are just blaming Beechen for how he handled the story, not for the idea to make Cass evil to begin with.


SEAN

[Babylon23]

To be fair, the majority of the people are just blaming Beechen for how he handled the story, not for the idea to make Cass evil to begin with.


SEAN

My mistake. I thought people were upset specifically because she'd been turned into a villain.

[OverMaster]

Like I care...

Well, in a public debate board you sure should care about Internet etiquette and proper discussion level.

The opposite is called trolling.

[jerrymcl89]

My mistake. I thought people were upset specifically because she'd been turned into a villain.

I think it is both the fact that she was turned into a villian, and the fact that Beechen did so in a manner which showed no comprehension of her character. Gabych had concluded his run in a way that left a reasonable framework for Cass to become, if not exactly a villian, at least a "hero who kills", a la, say, Black Adam. If Beechen had chosen to build on that foundation, I'm sure there would still be people who didn't like it, but I doubt the degree of unhappiness would be what it is.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, in a public debate board you sure should care about Internet etiquette and proper discussion level.

The opposite is called trolling.

And this is why Nick is the only person on my ignore list. He's not interested in anything but trolling.

Ignore the troll, and it shall insult to its heart's content...and bother nobody.

[literally exaggerated]

Yeah, two AWESOME potential storylines that could have effectively taken Cass out of the primary Batfamily picture to make room for Batwoman without wrecking her character were completely ignored.

One, the "villain who kills villains" type thing that was already being set up. Not pure evil, but dark as hell and directly at odds with the rest of the Batfamily. It would make sense with what had previously been set up for Cassie, and it would leave open the possiblity of eventual redemption if Batwoman didn't work out. She could even work with the league of assasins as someone who tries to turn evil against itself, using assassins to kill evil despots and whatnot.

two, the Gail Simone "Angel of the Bat" idea. Total opposite direction, with the same overall effect. Cassie converts to Christianity, and works as a helper and healer and peaceful guardian. She disassociates herself from the Batfamily, not because she's too dark, but because they are, she no longer agrees with the whole "dark avenger" angle or using fear as a tool.

Either would respect the character and take her in a new direction, away from the main batfamily and making room for Batwoman, that would allow for a great deal of complexity.

[Jeff F]

One, the "villain who kills villains" type thing that was already being set up. Not pure evil, but dark as hell and directly at odds with the rest of the Batfamily. It would make sense with what had previously been set up for Cassie, and it would leave open the possiblity of eventual redemption if Batwoman didn't work out. She could even work with the league of assasins as someone who tries to turn evil against itself, using assassins to kill evil despots and whatnot.


I'm confused.

I took over the league so we could start bringing the world some justice... our way! Killing those who really deserve it, you and me, together... and the job starts right here, right now.

Aren't you talking about what just happened in Robin?

[Constantine Drakon]

I'm confused.



Aren't you talking about what just happened in Robin?

If I remember right, your take is that the thing that Cassandra says motivated her isn't really what motivated her, and you can't trust what she says because she's crazy.

Well, from that point of view you're still not getting the character he's describing. He's talking about a character that logically looked at all the death caused by villains, and decided that killing killers was the way to save the most people. He's basically talking about someone that's sane and that has good intentions, but whose methods are completely at odds with Batman's. As you interpret it, she's insane, so that's automatically not the case.

Of course, a lot of us are annoyed because we feel that the way this has been handled has ruined the idea in other ways. Having her be motivated to turn to killing by the vain and petty desire to be the only one Cain trained, and not out of a desire to protect people like she failed to protect Bludhaven... I feel that pretty much makes a bad joke out of what could have been an interesting story. As people have been saying, that character doesn't come off as Cassandra Cain, now willing to kill. She comes of as a completely new and unlikable character. Plus, having her be willing to kil innocent bystanders (like she did with Nyssa's car bomb) again ruins the entire idea of having a Cassandra Cain that's willing to kill villains. Having her be willing to kill innocents as well doesn't make her a character with noble intentions but a willingness to kill. It just makes her a pathetic murderer.

[elias_A]

I'm confused.


Aren't you talking about what just happened in Robin?

If this is a serious question...
we discussed all this already here:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=131459

Short version: This is the only time she talks about justice, instead of whining that daddy didn't love her, that Batman didn't love her, that Tim should love her, that she doesn't love to have siblings...

And her car bomb for Nyssa could have killed a lot of innocents.

[mattx110]

i really don't care about batgirlllll........
but wtf, they blew up bludhaven? what was the point of that? it was nightwing's city to protect and try to bring up to only gotham level of corruption.
then they sent all the non-batman batpeople to bludhaven, which was silly.
now they blew it up? what was the point? to annoy chuck dixon even more after killing off 80% of the characters he created.
is that irish chinese girl still alive at least? this is insane... who cares about cassandra, she's only been around a couple years and is subject to change, after this dick grayson is probably gonna need about 25 years of therapy to be able to walk outside his house.

anyway, complain a little, but hold off and wait and see. i don't see 'tec under paul dini being bad, and most people have faith in grant morrison. idk about robin, but it's worth a try. maybe the reason you all think the story is weak is because it isn't the one beechen wanted to tell, and now he'll move on to stuff he's more interested in and we'll wind up with a better comic for it. the great thing is, if a novel sucks, it sucks, but in the serial format, things(in art/writing) can get better within the same story.:D

edit: i wrote beecher instead of beechen...... oops

[Jeff F]

If I remember right, your take is that the thing that Cassandra says motivated her isn't really what motivated her, and you can't trust what she says because she's crazy.


Close. I don't think she's insane. That's a bit of a harsh word. I'd say she has an extreme cass of stress. I'm not sure if she truley knows herself anymore.


Well, from that point of view you're still not getting the character he's describing. He's talking about a character that logically looked at all the death caused by villains, and decided that killing killers was the way to save the most people. He's basically talking about someone that's sane and that has good intentions, but whose methods are completely at odds with Batman's. As you interpret it, she's insane, so that's automatically not the case.


If I don't think Cass is insane, I fail to see the difference. Which is why I fail to see the difference.


She comes of as a completely new and unlikable character. Plus, having her be willing to kil innocent bystanders (like she did with Nyssa's car bomb) again ruins the entire idea of having a Cassandra Cain that's willing to kill villains. Having her be willing to kill innocents as well doesn't make her a character with noble intentions but a willingness to kill. It just makes her a pathetic murderer.

She killed innocents? Willing to? I don't see anyone but Nyssa, the chaufer, and those two dudes in the panels. And we get a decent of the street.

[Jeff F]

If this is a serious question...
we discussed all this already here:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=131459

Short version: This is the only time she talks about justice, instead of whining that daddy didn't love her, that Batman didn't love her, that Tim should love her, that she doesn't love to have siblings...

And her car bomb for Nyssa could have killed a lot of innocents.

It's a serious question.

She never asks for Tim's love... I don't get the whole seductress part.

We don't know if the car bomb killed bystanders. There weren't any in the panel, so I'm not sure why we would assume they were there.

[elias_A]

It's a serious question.

She never asks for Tim's love... I don't get the whole seductress part.

We don't know if the car bomb killed bystanders. There weren't any in the panel, so I'm not sure why we would assume they were there.

The point is that the bomb COULD have killed innocents - a risk that a Cass still with the chief motivation to save lives would never take. Anyway, why should she use a bomb at all? She's one of the world's best martial artists.

Maybe the seductress thing can be disputed, but:

- Her criticism of Batman doesn't make sense. She has never had any problems with the fact that fighting crime means risking your live, and she knows Bruce is haunted by Jason's and Spoiler's deaths because she can read his body language.

- Why should she be bothered by the existence of Annalea? She knows Cain cares for her (he went to prison for her after the fugitive crossover), her problem with him is that he kills, not that she supposedly was not "special" to him.

- She doesn't even mention Bludhaven, which should be her biggest motivation to kill villains.

- She says something like you cannot change what you were born to be. But even as an anti-hero that wouldn't make sense, because she would still value human live, not be a assassin-for-hire like her dad intended her to be.


But I don't want to type all this arguments (there are a lot more) again and again. Please look at the link I gave, or at any of the threads about Robin 151.

[Nick Kal]

Well, in a public debate board you sure should care about Internet etiquette and proper discussion level.

The opposite is called trolling.

Hey, I'm not the several posters who created almost 8 threads to find another place to whine continually about 4 issues of a comic book. I can laugh if I want just like you can complain about Batgirl, the most important comic character to ever grace the pages of print in the DC Universe!:)

[Nick Kal]

And this is why Nick is the only person on my ignore list. He's not interested in anything but trolling.

Ignore the troll, and it shall insult to its heart's content...and bother nobody.

I'm flattered.

[Constantine Drakon]

Close. I don't think she's insane. That's a bit of a harsh word. I'd say she has an extreme cass of stress. I'm not sure if she truley knows herself anymore.



If I don't think Cass is insane, I fail to see the difference. Which is why I fail to see the difference.

I don't know what to tell you here. I was on board for the idea of Cassandra being willing to kill bad guys, and I look at how that was executed and all I can think is "F.U.B.A.R." She talks differently, looks differently, acts differently, and gives petty reasons for why she's doing this. Even if you want to excuse those petty reasons away by saying she's "stressed", I still think having her say them at all makes this story beyond ridiculous, and the fact that nobody ever mentioned Bludhaven is insultingly stupid. If your position is that she's so "stressed" that she's talking funny and saying she's been motivated to kill for reasons that aren't her real motivations... well, okay. That's your right. Even if a book was put out tomorrow where someone flat out says that your theory is correct, and that's what's been going on, I think that's an embarassingly terrible way to have gone with this story. She just plain looks ludicrous to me, walking around making crazy gestures, giving long rants about how much her being unique meant to her, and how Batman was using them all... yeah, sure, it could be all due to stress. I don't think that's the case, but even if it was the case it would be a laughably bad way to approach what should have been a serious story. I was ready to accept Cassandra Cain willing to kill to save innocents. All the other stuff about her sister, and being unique, and wanting Tim at her side, and hating Batman, and making elaborate kidnapping schemes, and framing Tim, and going on long rambling rants, and arranging to meet up with the person she wants to meet by planting a clue he might not have found if it wasn't for luck... stress or no stress, all that extra baggage ruined what could have been a great story: Cass is willing to kill bad guys now, and she goes up to Tim and tries to show him why her way is better. That's all that was needed, and all the extra junk added in ruined the story for me.


She killed innocents? Willing to? I don't see anyone but Nyssa, the chaufer, and those two dudes in the panels. And we get a decent of the street.

Newspaper in Robin 149: 1 dead, 12 wounded. It was a car bomb, not exactly the weapon you should use if you want no potential civilian casualties. We know people other than Nyssa were hurt, we just don't know how badly wounded they were. But they were hurt by a car bomb's exploding, presumably by the shrapnel that went flying, and it doesn't take much of that at all to kill someone. Your millage may vary, but that told me that the new ruthless Cassandra was willing to endanger people out for a walk, or at least didn't give much thought to their safety. And honestly, Nyssa? Was she really that bad? I never got to know her very well, but she seemed to be basically someone willing to kill in order to achieve good in the end. I'm not saying a "Villain killer" wouldn't target her, I'm just saying the writer could have picked a much better victim to show us what Cassandra was like these days, or at least could have showed Nyssa as being more villainous than her last few fairly ambiguous appearances.

[Jaye]

Enough with the name calling, insults, and snarky remarks.
That goes for this thread and any other on this forum.

Consider this a warning, next offenses result in bans.
This goes for everyone, not just Nick Kal and Damo.

My advice is to ignore posters you are unable to converse with in a respectful manner.
There is an ignore function in each user profile.