What are some good crime/noir books?

[Predator]

I've been meaning to read a few this summer, can anybody give me some suggestions? I was thinking of something by Raymond Chandler or Greg Rucka, but I'll take any suggestions.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Only recently got my introduction to noir books, Dashiell Hammett's The Continental Op which is a great collection of short stories. It took a while for me to get comfortable with the style it is written in, but by the third story I didn't want to put the thing down.

[Shem the Penman]

Chandler's always good. If you've got the time, check out James Ellroy's L.A. Quartet -- The Black Dahlia, The Big Nowhere, L.A. Confidential, White Jazz.

You might also want to try Jim Thompson, whose specialty was very dark noir.

[sheets]

I've been meaning to read a few this summer, can anybody give me some suggestions? I was thinking of something by Raymond Chandler or Greg Rucka, but I'll take any suggestions.

If you're trying to get into reading hard-boiled crime fiction, the "Big 3" authors to start with are Chandler, Hammett, and James Cain. These guys are to crime fiction what Tolkien and Robert E. Howard are to fantasy and Asimov and Heinlein are to sci-fi. For Chandler, I would recommend starting with The Big Sleep; for Hammett, either The Maltese Falcon or Red Harvest; and for Cain, read either The Postman Always Rings Twice or Double Indemnity.

For more modern authors, Elmore Leonard is very good, especially his older, Detroit period writing, like City Primeval. James Ellroy is another major writer...The Black Dahlia is a good starting point for him.

Other major authors: Jim Thompson (The Killer Inside Me, The Grifters), Chester Himes (Cotton Comes to Harlem), Richard Stark (The Hunter/Payback), John D. MacDonald (Travis McGee series, Cape Fear), David Goodis (Nightfall, Down There), Patricia Highsmith (The Talented Mr. Ripley), Cornell Woolrich (Phantom Lady, I Married a Dead Man). If you want something a little more over the top, try Mickey Spillane's I, the Jury (first Mike Hammer book).

Otherwise, pick up *anything* from the Hard Case Crime imprint. They've got a great mix of new and old stuff.

[Matt Linton]

Chandler is amazing. Rucka's great. I'll throw in the Matthew Scudder novels by Lawerence Block, Caught Stealing and Six Bad Things by Charlie Huston, and the Elvis Cole novels by Robert Crais. They start out kind of light, but they're addictive, and each novel takes some really dark turns. The first novel is The Monkey's Raincoat, but on his website Crais says he usually recommends new readers start with LA Requiem or The Last Detective (I'd say in that order).

[FroggieBKT]

I'll ditto a lot of what people have already suggested. Chandler and Hammett are really sort of givens. They both sort of set the standard. John D. MacDonald is my personal favorite. Robert Crais is good. Lawrence Block's Scudder books are fantastic. Dennis Lehane is top notch too.

[Subotai]

I'd start with Lawrence Block's early Matt Scudder novels: The Sins of the Fathers, A Time to Murder and Create, In the Midst of Death, A Stab in the Dark, Eight Million Ways to Die. Really some of the best in modern hard-core detective fiction.

A brother in spirit to Matt Scudder is Ken Bruen's Jack Taylor: the Guards, The Killing of the Tinkers, The Magdalen Martyrs, The Dramatist and Priest .

Block and Taylor are two guys who have experienced life from the dirt up. Not guys who hung out at an AA meeting to get the alcoholic miasma. And not for the faint of heart.

Another fella who is still going strong is James Crumley, who wrote the classic The Last Good Kiss thirty years ago and which is a good place to start. James Lee Burke is another member of the Old Guard; his Dave Robicheaux series is heartbreaking, and the most recent, Pegasus Descending, is just out in trade paperback.

Charles Willeford's wonderful creation, a worn-down Miami detective named Hoke Moseley, stars in what may be the finest police series ever. The first novel in the series, Miami Blues, was filmed with Fred Ward and Alec Baldwin.

I'd just like to finish by strongly recommending a couple of fellas: First, Kent Anderson, who is in the middle of a series starting his magnificent character, Hanson, Vietnam-vet turned cop. His Night Dogs is probably the best crime novel I've ever read. Sympathy for the Devil is about Hanson's experiences in Vietnam and is also top-shelf.

As well, Adrian McKinty, whose Dead I Well May Be is a drop-dead fierce novel about an Irish expatriate set up in a drug deal who ends up in a Mexican prison. The guy can just plain write.

Eh, one more: Anyone who has the first Preacher trade has read the intro from Joe Lansdale. Lansdale (Who also wrote Bubba Ho-Tep) has a series starring two mis-matched friends, Hap and Leonard, starting with Savage Season and the most recent entry, Captains Outrageous. Truly violent and funny.

Whew! I'll shut up now.

[Dustin]

Any book by Harlan Coben is an incredible type of crime book. Trust me. The best one by him -in my opinion- is called, No Second Chance

[Shellhead]

Eh, one more: Anyone who has the first Preacher trade has read the intro from Joe Lansdale. Lansdale (Who also wrote Bubba Ho-Tep) has a series starring two mis-matched friends, Hap and Leonard, starting with Savage Season and the most recent entry, Captains Outrageous. Truly violent and funny.


The adventures of Hap Collins and Leonard Pine are awesome, but I'm not sure if they are noir... I suppose they are if the subgenre is portable enough to move from gritty urban streets to small redneck towns and trailer parks. Lansdale's East Texas is definitely a rough and tough place, and the real work East Texas looks pretty grim from the highway. And at one point in Rumble Tumble, there is a paragraph that nicely summarizes H.P. Lovecraft's bleak view of reality without even naming him. At any rate, I highly recommend these books, noir or not. Start with Savage Season and go from there.

[sheets]

The adventures of Hap Collins and Leonard Pine are awesome, but I'm not sure if they are noir... I suppose they are if the subgenre is portable enough to move from gritty urban streets to small redneck towns and trailer parks.

I think they count. They're funny books but the humor is used as a cover for some really nasty settings and characters.

To be honest, I've kind of grown to hate the term "noir". It only really works as an extremely vague catch-all term and it breaks down very quickly if you try to get even slightly specific. I can't count the number of discussions I've seen online of people who start talking "noir" only for the thread to turn into a very long, repetitive argument over just what hell noir is, while the actual books and movies get left behind :)

[Shellhead]

I'm currently reading "Noir" by K.W. Jeter. It falls far short of his excellent "Infernal Devices", but then that can be said about most Jeter books. This is a bleak cyberpunk dystopia, with savage social criticism of corporate America. It has some interesting ideas and an unusually small cast of characters for such a long book. I'm not sure if I actually enjoy it, but I'm still reading, so it definitely doesn't suck.

[Slam_Bradley]

Good coverage here, fellers. The only major omission that I noticed was Graham Greene.

[Subotai]

To be honest, I've kind of grown to hate the term "noir". It only really works as an extremely vague catch-all term and it breaks down very quickly if you try to get even slightly specific. I can't count the number of discussions I've seen online of people who start talking "noir" only for the thread to turn into a very long, repetitive argument over just what hell noir is, while the actual books and movies get left behind :)


I hear what you're saying. Generally - present company excluded, of course (;) ) - whenever I take part in a discussion of 'noir' things have a tendency to become a little pretentious; I know guys like Cain, Woolrich, Thompson, etc. have the patent on darker stories with the non-traditional protagonist; but I think that sort of limits our discussion. 'Hard-boiled' probably suits our purposes better. I've read some great discussions and suggestions here.

[Magneto_X]

The series of books by Larry Millett about Sherlock Holmes are excellent. There's about five or six of them. Not sure if they are still continuing, though.

[Web of Fear]

I'd recommend the Malcolm Pryce "Aberystwyth" series of books. Hard boiled noir, set against the 24 hour whelk bars and the rock factories that belch pink smoke into the sky

[CaptainAwesome]

Chandler's always good. If you've got the time, check out James Ellroy's L.A. Quartet -- The Black Dahlia, The Big Nowhere, L.A. Confidential, White Jazz.


Second on Ellroy. Ive only read The Black Dahlia, but it left quite an impression on me. LA Confidential is one of my favorite movies, but I guess that doesnt help you much.

[howyadoin]

Not really "noir", but definitely in the crime genre:

- most of Elmore Leonard's books
- Ian Rankin's Inspector Rebus books
- most of Stephen Hunter's books, including Dirty White Boys
- Steve Hamilton's Alex McKnight novels
- Ed McBain's 87th Precinct novels

[berk]

Among contemporary writers, I'd suggest Andrew Vacchs. Start with his first novel, Flood. It pretty much gives an idea of his style and introduces his main characters.

[Matt Linton]

Just realized no one's mentioned Walter Mosley's Easy Rawlins novels. Great stuff.

[Matt Linton]

Quick question: Are there any hard-boiled/noir novels with female protagonists?

[FroggieBKT]

Quick question: Are there any hard-boiled/noir novels with female protagonists?

Sara Paretsky's V.I. Warshawski series features a female protagonist. That's the only one that leaps readily to mind though...

[Subotai]

Check out S.J. Rozan's Lydia Chin/Bill Smith series. Not too dark, but excellent characters, and a great depiction of New York. Lydia Chin is maybe my favourite literary character right now.

For female protagonists, there's Carol O'Connell's popular Mallory, a semi-sociopathic NYPD detective; and the excellent novels based on the Prime Suspect series.

Mosley's Easy Rawlins is a terrific series - but my favourite novel of his is 'Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned' which was adapted by HBO. Definitely worth checking out.

The Alex McKnight novels are also great; Hamilton deserves all his accolades, and it's a realistic depiction of life in that part of the country.

[sheets]

Quick question: Are there any hard-boiled/noir novels with female protagonists?

Joe Lansdale's Sunset and Sawdust.
Branded Woman, by Wade Miller.
Stark House is reprinting some of Vin Packer's old lesbian-themed crime novels.

[Kaiju]

Check out Charlie Huston's Caught Stealing and Six Bad Things.

[Shellhead]

I finished reading "Noir" (the book by K.W. Jeter) recently. About halfway through the book, it gets very interesting and really ugly at the same time. Though written way back in 1998, Jeter has some truly savage thoughts to share about both sides of the intellectual property debate. His critique of corporate america turns to sheer loathing, and he also takes a few potshots at the healthcare and insurance industries.

More on topic, Jeter also has a couple of insights into the sub-genre of noir. My favorite is when one of his characters comments that having a lengthy conversation at gunpoint is a very noir thing to do.

[Kaiju]

Has anyone read Edward Bunker's novels? Dog Eat Dog is a really nasty piece of crime fiction.

[Roquefort Raider]

I doubt the genre will ever get truly better than what it was under the pen of its early writers, but I did enjoy the more recent Joe Kurtz trio of books by Dan Simmons: Hard case, Hard freeze and Hard as nails. They're at the limit of being a parody, but good fun in the Sin city sense.

[Kaiju]

I doubt the genre will ever get truly better than what it was under the pen of its early writers, but I did enjoy the more recent Joe Kurtz trio of books by Dan Simmons: Hard case, Hard freeze and Hard as nails. They're at the limit of being a parody, but good fun in the Sin city sense.

I really enjoyed the Joe Kurtz books but some folks hate them with a passion. I wish Simmons would continue the series but for now it's on indefinite hiatus.

[Subotai]

Has anyone read Edward Bunker's novels? Dog Eat Dog is a really nasty piece of crime fiction.

Yeah, he's a legend. Fans of Eddie Bunker should check out the flick 'Animal Factory', directed by Steve Buscemi based on Bunker's novel. Bunker and Danny Trejo do a hilarious, bang-on commentary.

[Subotai]

I doubt the genre will ever get truly better than what it was under the pen of its early writers, but I did enjoy the more recent Joe Kurtz trio of books by Dan Simmons: Hard case, Hard freeze and Hard as nails. They're at the limit of being a parody, but good fun in the Sin city sense.

I think Simmons is a very good writer, but the same qualities which make him such a strong horror/sci-fi writer work against him as a crime writer. I struggled through the first couple, but no more.

[Delephynite]

James Pattersons’ Alex Cross novels. His books are quite possibly the best crime novels I have read in a long time. He certainly knows how to keep readers intrigued and develops his characters very well. I will stop kissing his arse now, but seriously. He’s good.

Also Tess Gerritsen, I’m not a fan of hers, but my mother is. In which case you may want to avoid her books thinking about that.

[Lee Kaye]

George P Pelecanos. Can't recommend him enough. His Washington DC Quartet is superb. King Suckerman and Sweet Forever being the highlights. About half his books link together with family ties and friendships so they create a small universe which I really enjoy too. :)

[Roquefort Raider]

I think Simmons is a very good writer, but the same qualities which make him such a strong horror/sci-fi writer work against him as a crime writer. I struggled through the first couple, but no more.

I'm curious as to why that would be. Is it because he lays it on so thick? I know that I had a hard time taking Kurtz seriously; he's just too much like Marv in Sin city. Like a Mike Hammer on steroids. I mean, it's okay for a crime novel protagonist to act tough, but you can only go so far before suspension of disbelief goes out the window: a clear case of this is in "Hannibal', when whatshisname gets to eat his own brains... that was so over the top that it ceased being scary and became downright funny.

I wonder if that was Simmons' intent to make Kurtz a caricature, or if he just tried to stretch credibility as far as it would go.

So, Subotai, why did you dislike Hard case?

[Shellhead]

I'm curious as to why that would be. Is it because he lays it on so thick? I know that I had a hard time taking Kurtz seriously; he's just too much like Marv in Sin city. Like a Mike Hammer on steroids. I mean, it's okay for a crime novel protagonist to act tough, but you can only go so far before suspension of disbelief goes out the window: a clear case of this is in "Hannibal', when whatshisname gets to eat his own brains... that was so over the top that it ceased being scary and became downright funny.

I wonder if that was Simmons' intent to make Kurtz a caricature, or if he just tried to stretch credibility as far as it would go.


I loved Simmons' science-fiction and horror works, especially the Hyperion/Endymion books. Then I read his sequel to Summer of Night, where the now-adult narrator basically denies most of the events of that first book. Then I read a short story collection. I can't remember the names of either of these books now, but they left me with the impression that Simmons has spent the last several years listening to conservative hate-radio and has abandoned the viewpoints which permitted him to write so well earlier in his career. I expect him to join a militia or some kind of survivalist group any day now, and I won't read anything he writes from now on. Simmons is the caricature, not Kurtz.

[Roquefort Raider]

Simmons is the caricature, not Kurtz.

Ouch!

My one gripe about Simmons, not having read the books you mention, is that he refers to himself as a writer who sometimes writes science-fiction.

Given that his most successful pieces were SF and horror, I think that's a little conceited as well as a little ungrateful to the SF crowd. As if it was shameful for a writer to specialize in genre fiction.

[Subotai]

I'm curious as to why that would be. Is it because he lays it on so thick? I know that I had a hard time taking Kurtz seriously; he's just too much like Marv in Sin city. Like a Mike Hammer on steroids. I mean, it's okay for a crime novel protagonist to act tough, but you can only go so far before suspension of disbelief goes out the window: a clear case of this is in "Hannibal', when whatshisname gets to eat his own brains... that was so over the top that it ceased being scary and became downright funny.

I wonder if that was Simmons' intent to make Kurtz a caricature, or if he just tried to stretch credibility as far as it would go.

So, Subotai, why did you dislike Hard case?

I don't know if Simmons intended to make Kurtz a parody or not, but he was certainly presented as the real deal. And the end product was laughable. We had lines like "in the end, the detective's shield was no shield at all." that one was burned into my brain. The Kurtz novels were well-researched but really, really contrived. Buffalo, the hotbed of organized crime. Compared to real hard-boiled characters like Matt Scudder, Kurtz was impossible to swallow. Especially when the Kurtz novels were sandwiched around a superior Simmons novel, "A Winter Haunting".

As for Hannibal - God, I'm still trying to forget that debacle. Starling and Lecter get married and move to South America? And now we have the Chronicles of Hannibal or some shit coming up. Ah, well, Harris was a good writer, once upon a time.

[Subotai]

I loved Simmons' science-fiction and horror works, especially the Hyperion/Endymion books. Then I read his sequel to Summer of Night, where the now-adult narrator basically denies most of the events of that first book. Then I read a short story collection. I can't remember the names of either of these books now, but they left me with the impression that Simmons has spent the last several years listening to conservative hate-radio and has abandoned the viewpoints which permitted him to write so well earlier in his career. I expect him to join a militia or some kind of survivalist group any day now, and I won't read anything he writes from now on. Simmons is the caricature, not Kurtz.

Speaking of that, I remember a short story Simmons recently posted on his website about the dangers of radical Islam. I hate the Taliban as much as the next guy, but it wasn't very impressive.

I'm not sure about the sequel to Summer of Night, though. Is it that Dale denies the events, or that he can't remember them?

[Subotai]

Double Post.

[Shellhead]

Speaking of that, I remember a short story Simmons recently posted on his website about the dangers of radical Islam. I hate the Taliban as much as the next guy, but it wasn't very impressive.

I'm not sure about the sequel to Summer of Night, though. Is it that Dale denies the events, or that he can't remember them?

Given the extreme nature of the events of Summer of Night, forgetting would be nearly impossible. The main threats in A Winter Haunting were pretty mundane, and it felt like Simmons himself was denying the supernatural events of Summer of Night, turning it into the forgotten fantasies of a young mind. Though the book has gotten great reviews from the critics, I found it sour, drab, and forgettable, and it tarnished the impact of the excellent first book.

[Subotai]

Given the extreme nature of the events of Summer of Night, forgetting would be nearly impossible. The main threats in A Winter Haunting were pretty mundane, and it felt like Simmons himself was denying the supernatural events of Summer of Night, turning it into the forgotten fantasies of a young mind. Though the book has gotten great reviews from the critics, I found it sour, drab, and forgettable, and it tarnished the impact of the excellent first book.

I admit it's been a while since I read it (and it's hardly a major point) but IIRC at the end of Summer of Night Simmons mentions the kids gradually losing their memory of the events of that summer...and the same thing in Darwin's Blade, where it's mentioned that Dale's little brother Lawrence had a traumatic youth which he has lost memory of. Sort of like at the end of Stephen King's It. But I could well be wrong.

In any case, I prowled around Simmons' official website, and have come to the conclusion, having read several of his eye-widening posts on the forum, the man's a bit of a loon. I won't go into the politics of it here, but perhaps the more-than-healthy dose of paranoia he seems to have been infected with is actually to the better of his writing. Of course, I'm one of those stuffy Canucks he complains about, so I suppose I'm biased.

In any case, I'll be looking forward to his next horror novel, which seems similar to Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness (another flawed author) next winter. On the whole, the Elm Haven series has been a mixed bag for me; Summer of Night the winner, the vampire book w/ Mike O'Rourke and A Winter Haunting mixed positives, and the Hawaii novel w/ Cordie & Darwin's Blade mostly negative.

[Kaiju]

I admit it's been a while since I read it (and it's hardly a major point) but IIRC at the end of Summer of Night Simmons mentions the kids gradually losing their memory of the events of that summer...and the same thing in Darwin's Blade, where it's mentioned that Dale's little brother Lawrence had a traumatic youth which he has lost memory of. Sort of like at the end of Stephen King's It. But I could well be wrong.

In any case, I prowled around Simmons' official website, and have come to the conclusion, having read several of his eye-widening posts on the forum, the man's a bit of a loon. I won't go into the politics of it here, but perhaps the more-than-healthy dose of paranoia he seems to have been infected with is actually to the better of his writing. Of course, I'm one of those stuffy Canucks he complains about, so I suppose I'm biased.

In any case, I'll be looking forward to his next horror novel, which seems similar to Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness (another flawed author) next winter. On the whole, the Elm Haven series has been a mixed bag for me; Summer of Night the winner, the vampire book w/ Mike O'Rourke and A Winter Haunting mixed positives, and the Hawaii novel w/ Cordie & Darwin's Blade mostly negative.

I guess I'm the only person that enjoyed Fires Of Eden and Darwin's Blade.

[Shellhead]

I guess I'm the only person that enjoyed Fires Of Eden and Darwin's Blade.

I enjoyed Fires of Eden and have not read Darwin's Blade.

[howyadoin]

I've just recently discovered Donald Harstad's work. He's an ex-cop, and I guess you'd call his work police procedurals. So far I've read three of his Carl Houseman books (Eleven Days, Known Dead, and The Big Thaw), and I'm quite impressed. The stories are compelling, the characterization is nicely done, and they just seem smart.

[Matthew E]

There are a couple of names that I'm surprised to find have been left out, and surprisingly they have something in common.

Ross Macdonald is another of the all-time great hardboiled detective writers; he wrote many books about his detective Lew Archer.

For female protagonists, Sue Grafton's Kinsey Millhone novels are also kind of hardboiled, and for an extra bonus she sets her stories in the same fictional town Ross Macdonald used: Santa Teresa, California. (At least I think it's fictional.)

Oh, and there's also Robert B. Parker's Spenser novels. They're getting kind of lightweight now, but the early ones are good.

[Subotai]

Actually, I'd have to say Parker last couple of Spenser novels, School Days and Hundred-Dollar Baby, are a little stronger than the dozen or so that preceeded them going back to the mid-80s.

But Don WInslow's The Winter of Frankie Machine - terrific.

[RickDangerous]

W.R. Burnett is the best crime writer, hands down. Old school film noir style.
I would reccomend Asphalt Jungle and Little Caesar.

Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest is the most intriguing crime/detective story I have ever read. Maltese Falcon comes in second.

Richard Stark novels are a lot of fun as well. Just make sure to pick up something with Parker and Grofield, his two best characters.

Your local library probably has most of these.

[Kaiju]

I highly recommend The Wheelman by Duane Swierczynski. It's an adrenalized, bareknuckled piece of crime fiction.

Charlie Huston finished his trilogy with A Dangerous Man. It wasn't quite as good as Caught Stealing or Six Bad Things but it ended the series with a bang.

Has anyone read any of Victor Gischler's stuff? I liked Gun Monkeys and Suicide Squeeze quite a bit.

[Doc Shannara]

In my opinion, both currently and all-time, Robert B. Parker is the fucking master.

I could suggest three dozen others...

But do yourself a favor and start with the absolute fucking best of all time.

[Subotai]

Picked up a good one - L.A. Rex, a twisted cop novel.

A cop on the L.A.P.D. circa the last days of Daryl Gates - with some shades of Night Dogs (the best cop book out there).

The author is currently on the job with the LAPD - it takes some balls to come out with a novel like this.

Real good read.

[Shem the Penman]

Richard Stark novels are a lot of fun as well. Just make sure to pick up something with Parker and Grofield, his two best characters.

Richard Stark, as you probably know, is Donald E. Westlake under a pen name. The Parker novels and Westlake's own Dortmunder novels (The Hot Rock etc.) are similar in that they're both about criminals plotting capers; the difference is that the Parker books are grimmer in tone and Parker's plans usually work, but the Dortmunder books are comedies, and Dortmunder's plans tend to run into ... unusual complications. They're both very good in their own ways.

[Rocket13]

Put me down as a backer of the Scudder novels by Block with my favorite being one I read not too long ago, called Everybody Dies. I also greatly enjoy the Spenser novels by Parker. Good quick reads and lots of witty dialogue.

[Expletive Deleted]

Derek Raymond's "Factory" series. It's extremely dark hardboiled British noir. The first book is HE DIED WITH HIS EYES OPEN. They're just coming back into print this year, I think.

[batturtle]

Joe R. Lansdale writes some great stuff.

And there's a line of pocketbooks published under the banner of 'Hard Case Crime' that look really promising. I've only read one of them so far, Stephen King's 'The Colorado Kid'...other writers contributing to the series include the likes of Max Allen Collins and Ed McBain.

[RickDangerous]

Richard Stark, as you probably know, is Donald E. Westlake under a pen name. The Parker novels and Westlake's own Dortmunder novels (The Hot Rock etc.) are similar in that they're both about criminals plotting capers; the difference is that the Parker books are grimmer in tone and Parker's plans usually work, but the Dortmunder books are comedies, and Dortmunder's plans tend to run into ... unusual complications. They're both very good in their own ways.

I knew it was Westlake's pen name, but I never read any of his novels aside from the ones he's published under the STark name.

Which would you recommend from the Dortmunder series, or even from Westlake as a whole?

[JeffreyWKramer]

It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned Andrew Vachss, and most specifically his Burke books. Well, I'll correct that oversight.

Vachss writes urban crime books. Essentially, they involve criminals with some sense of honor going against those with no sense of honor - most often child molesters, serial murderers and other predators. The main character is Burke, an intriguing, flawed character with a bad past and a lot of stored-up anger that he takes out on those who would inflict horrors on the innocent. The books get sort of repetitive over the course of the many novels, but they are definitely worth a try. The first several - FLOOD, STREGA, BLUE BELLE and HARD CANDY - hit hard as a sackfull of bricks. The next several are pretty good, but more variable in quality, and the repetitiveness starts setting in. Since DEAD AND GONE, though, the series has been revitalized, and that one and every one since has hit a home run.

Comics fans are likely to particularly appreciate the Burke books because Burke has a group of friends he works with - fellow criminals - that are screwed-up versions of various comic/action archetypes (the wise mentor, the martial arts master, the crazy scientist, etc.). Back when Vachss first hit the scene, Frank Miller praised his stuff a lot. Dave Gibbons and Geoff Darrow are also reportedly fans.

[Matthew E]

Which would you recommend from the Dortmunder series, or even from Westlake as a whole?

You have come to the right place.

Here are the books in the Dortmunder series, in order. You can read them out of order without really ruining anything. There are no bad Dortmunder books.

The Hot Rock (good, but they get better)
Bank Shot (good, but they get better)
Jimmy the Kid (good, but they get better)
Nobody's Perfect (getting better)
Why Me? (even better)
Good Behavior (even better than that)
Drowned Hopes (about as good as 'Good Behavior')
Don't Ask (really good)
What's the Worst That Could Happen? (not quite as good as the previous few)
Bad News (about as good as the previous one)
The Road to Ruin (not quite that good, but still good)
Thieves' Dozen (collected short stories. Good, but don't start here)
Watch Your Back (better than 'The Road to Ruin')
Walking Around Money (novella in Ed McBain's collection 'Transgressions')
What's So Funny? (upcoming)

So there's that.

My favourite Westlake book is 'Dancing Aztecs'; it's brilliant and hilarious and one of my all-time favourites. 'Kahawa' is intentionally not that funny but it is excellent. I like 'Smoke' and 'Money for Nothing' and 'Put a Lid On It'. I didn't like 'Two Much' or 'Enough'.

If you look in the front of most Westlake books you'll find a page that lists his other stuff, in categories. Dortmunder has his own section, and there's also a 'comic crime' section. The comic crime stuff is the best. Some of it's kind of inconsequential, though.

His regular novels tend to get a little more serious than I like from him, but there are some good ones there too. I like 'A Likely Story' and 'Up Your Banners' in particular.

[Subotai]

It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned Andrew Vachss, and most specifically his Burke books. Well, I'll correct that oversight.

Vachss writes urban crime books. Essentially, they involve criminals with some sense of honor going against those with no sense of honor - most often child molesters, serial murderers and other predators. The main character is Burke, an intriguing, flawed character with a bad past and a lot of stored-up anger that he takes out on those who would inflict horrors on the innocent. The books get sort of repetitive over the course of the many novels, but they are definitely worth a try. The first several - FLOOD, STREGA, BLUE BELLE and HARD CANDY - hit hard as a sackfull of bricks. The next several are pretty good, but more variable in quality, and the repetitiveness starts setting in. Since DEAD AND GONE, though, the series has been revitalized, and that one and every one since has hit a home run.

Comics fans are likely to particularly appreciate the Burke books because Burke has a group of friends he works with - fellow criminals - that are screwed-up versions of various comic/action archetypes (the wise mentor, the martial arts master, the crazy scientist, etc.). Back when Vachss first hit the scene, Frank Miller praised his stuff a lot. Dave Gibbons and Geoff Darrow are also reportedly fans.

Darrow illustrated a book on child abuse Vachss wrote called Another Chance To Get It Right. Top-shelf work obviously written by someone who knows the topic. Probably available at most of the better comic stores. I still have a tape of the show he did with Oprah (!) to promote the book some 10 years ago. Some of those stories will make you cry.

He also did a serious stand-alone novel recently, 'Two Trains Running'. Another good read, although nothing touches those early Burke books.

[JeffreyWKramer]

nothing touches those early Burke books.

I think I've read BLUE BELLE maybe 5 times, and the ending hits just as hard every single time.

I'm surprised nobody has tried adapting the Burke novels as movies.

[Nate C.]

Anything by Lawerence Block.

His Scudder books, Rodenbahr books (msp), or his short stories.

Fantastic crime fiction writer.

[berk]

Good call on the Vachss books, JWK. My opinion is pretty close to yours - the first three, Flood, Strega, and especially Blue Belle, were outstanding, after which the series fell off a little for a time, but has enjoyed a resurgence over the last few years. I think Choice of Evil is the best of the more recent books. The entire series is an odd but effective mixture of very heavy realism and pulp-fiction elements that verge on the fantastic. You wouldn't think it could work, but Vachss pulls it off somehow.

Of the non-Burke novels, I really liked Shella; the new one, Two Trains Running, looks good as well, but I haven't found time to read it yet.

[Subotai]

I think I've read BLUE BELLE maybe 5 times, and the ending hits just as hard every single time.

I'm surprised nobody has tried adapting the Burke novels as movies.

It was an idea at one point. I read some article which mentioned Vachss' choice of producer for the films. See if I can find the name.

[howyadoin]

Anything by Lawerence Block.

His Scudder books, Rodenbahr books (msp), or his short stories.

Fantastic crime fiction writer.Nate, I just wanted to say thanks for the Jack Reacher recommendation. I finished my fourth one tonight.

Hard to believe Lee Child is a former TV writer, and not a former cop.

[Lee Kaye]

Nate, I just wanted to say thanks for the Jack Reacher recommendation. I finished my fourth one tonight.

Hard to believe Lee Child is a former TV writer, and not a former cop.


He's English isn't he? I heard him interviewed recently on BBC Radio 4 and I have been meaning to check his stuff out.

[Nate C.]

Nate, I just wanted to say thanks for the Jack Reacher recommendation. I finished my fourth one tonight.

Hard to believe Lee Child is a former TV writer, and not a former cop.

Hey, Allright! I just felt like you would enjoy those.

There's another series by a different author about a mass murderer who hunts down other mass murderers. Bear with me, cause I've only read one, but it was creepy brilliant fun. Dexter is his name, and I think it's in the title (and I think they are making a tv show about it). I need to do more research on this one, but might pique your interest.

[jessecuster3]

I love Elmore Leonard, I have read almost every one of his books since he stopped writing westerns. They are about as much noir as Pulp Fiction was. His last few books have been really good, I really liked Pagan Babies.

[Slam_Bradley]

I love Elmore Leonard, I have read almost every one of his books since he stopped writing westerns. They are about as much noir as Pulp Fiction was. His last few books have been really good, I really liked Pagan Babies.


You should try his westerns. They're good.

[Kaiju]

Good call on the Vachss books, JWK. My opinion is pretty close to yours - the first three, Flood, Strega, and especially Blue Belle, were outstanding, after which the series fell off a little for a time, but has enjoyed a resurgence over the last few years. I think Choice of Evil is the best of the more recent books. The entire series is an odd but effective mixture of very heavy realism and pulp-fiction elements that verge on the fantastic. You wouldn't think it could work, but Vachss pulls it off somehow.

Of the non-Burke novels, I really liked Shella; the new one, Two Trains Running, looks good as well, but I haven't found time to read it yet.

Two Trains Running is very, very good. The ending seemed a bit rushed but other than that I have no complaints.

I agree on the Burke books. Blue Belle is one of my favorite books of all time. Does anyone like the Cross short stories? I'd love to see Vachss do something else with that crew.

[berk]

Two Trains Running is very, very good. The ending seemed a bit rushed but other than that I have no complaints.

I agree on the Burke books. Blue Belle is one of my favorite books of all time. Does anyone like the Cross short stories? I'd love to see Vachss do something else with that crew.I haven't read the Cross stories; what are they like and which book(s) are they in?

[Subotai]

Not one of the short stories, and hard to find, but worth it:

http://www.vachss.com/av_books/comics/cross.html

[Joe Rice]

Gun, With Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem was a great noir-y sci-fi book I read years ago. Like Philip Dick mixed with Chandler.

I've heard this one is pretty good, too (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781411696167&itm=1).

[Kaiju]

Double Post

[Kaiju]

I haven't read the Cross stories; what are they like and which book(s) are they in?

Cross and Co. are like Burke and his crew but without the moral center or the whole children of the secret stuff. They are good but I'd love to see him write a Cross novel.

I think all of the Cross stories were included in Born Bad and Everybody Pays.

http://www.amazon.com/Born-Bad-Collected-Andrew-Vachss/dp/0679753362/sr=8-1/qid=1170341842/ref=sr_1_1/105-6402338-1618007?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Tobias March]

I'm reading Motherless Brooklyn at the moment by Jonothan Lethem, which has an amateur private eye suffering from Tourettes :D

[Rabid Trekkie]

I've been on a noir movie kick recently (watched Farewell My Lovely with Robert Mitchum over Christmas) and found Kiss Me Deadly. Well after watching it I had to find something by Spillane. It took me going through two Barnes and Nobles and two used book stores to finally find two. I picked up a copy of Black Alley which is a Mike Hammer novel (could have gotten a Tiger Mann one but I couldn't get past that name) and I'm already in love and I'm not four chapters in.

[Matt K]

Not sure if it counts but the Dresden Files has a sort of Noir feel to it (in my opinion). It combines magic and Chicago dective work although the more recent books also include a bit of political stuff involving the wizard counsel. Its a good pulpish series that I recomend.

[Subotai]

Dresden's a fun read. Probably more fantasy than crime, but I'm very glad to see it a success on Sci-Fi.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Not sure if it counts but the Dresden Files has a sort of Noir feel to it (in my opinion). It combines magic and Chicago dective work although the more recent books also include a bit of political stuff involving the wizard counsel. Its a good pulpish series that I recomend.

Well if Dresden counts then I may as well plug the Tales from the Nightside series. Those books are awesome.

[Fish Sauce]

Killing Floor is probably my favourite Lee Child due to the first person perspective. I love the way it's written.

Not sure if it's really noir, but Power of the Dog by Don Winslow is great.

[Subotai]

Fantastic. If you liked TPOTD, check out his latest, The Winter of Frankie Machine. DeNiro's optioned the novel - he'd be great for it.

[Fish Sauce]

Yeah, I was thinking about grabbing that when I saw it in the shop but is was more than $30 so I decided I'd wait, especially since I was on a DVD buying spree and all the ones I wanted seemed to be around ten bucks each!

Hopefully I'll get it soon, interesting to hear about DeNiro.

[bluetyson]

Well if Dresden counts then I may as well plug the Tales from the Nightside series. Those books are awesome.

I came across that while looking up Deathstalker info a couple of weeks ago, what happens in those books?

[Subotai]

Yeah, I was thinking about grabbing that when I saw it in the shop but is was more than $30 so I decided I'd wait, especially since I was on a DVD buying spree and all the ones I wanted seemed to be around ten bucks each!

Hopefully I'll get it soon, interesting to hear about DeNiro.

There's also The Death and Life of Bobby Z, written by Winslow a few years back, about an ex-marine who goes undercover as a presumedly deceased drug lord - movie version starring Paul Walker and Laurence Fishburne is supposed to come out soon, but IIRC Winslow has no knowledge of the film, which is bad news, and it'll probably go DTV. The book is pretty good though.

[Mike Steckler]

Has anyone read Allan Guthrie's Two-Way Split or one of my favorite books in recent memory Jame Sallis's Drive. Also a couple of fun reads were David Bowker's The Death You Deserve and I Love My Smith And Wesson. They introduce Rawhead, who is a Manchester hitman.

I'm reading Adrian McKinty's second Michael Forsythe novel The Dead Yard. The guy can flat out write.

Mike

[Subotai]

I'm reading Adrian McKinty's second Michael Forsythe novel The Dead Yard. The guy can flat out write.


Mike


"You know how much damage your skull will do to my gun if I pull this trigger at point-blank range?" he asks one inept crew leader. The answer: "None at all."

And the conclusion to the trilogy, The Bloomsday Dead, comes out in just a couple of weeks. A great run, almost completely under the radar. But that's the great thing about books - it's almost never too late to catch up (unless they go OOP, of course). Jump on the Michael Forsythe Express.


http://www.amazon.com/Bloomsday-Dead-Novel-Adrian-McKinty/dp/0743266447/sr=8-1/qid=1172148967/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2656457-8122364?ie=UTF8&s=books

[oddieson]

I seen Elroy in person: "my goal in life is to live long enough to write about that scumbag Clinton" I paraphrase from memory

[Subotai]

He also wrote a preface to one of Bill O'Reilly's books.

[FanboyStranger]

A brother in spirit to Matt Scudder is Ken Bruen's Jack Taylor: the Guards, The Killing of the Tinkers, The Magdalen Martyrs, The Dramatist and Priest .

Block and Taylor are two guys who have experienced life from the dirt up. Not guys who hung out at an AA meeting to get the alcoholic miasma. And not for the faint of heart.

.

I can't recommend Bruen's Jack Taylor novels highly enough. They are the very definition of tragicomedy-- humor, pathos, and visceral beatings (plus, lots of pints) all in one. Plus, Taylor's such a fan of crime fiction that the character himself will put you on the track of the good stuff. Just don't expect him to solve any of his cases, or remember half the stuff he does.

Start with The Guards. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Also, I picked up Bruen's American Skin at Christmas, but haven't had a chance to start it since I picked up Pynchon's Against the Day at the same time. (Finally finished that beast on Tuesday night. My biceps have finally gotten huge from lugging a book around.) I was wondering if anyone had read it (American Skin, that is), what they thought of it, and how it compares to the Jack Taylor stuff?

[Mike Steckler]

I can't recommend Bruen's Jack Taylor novels highly enough. They are the very definition of tragicomedy-- humor, pathos, and visceral beatings (plus, lots of pints) all in one. Plus, Taylor's such a fan of crime fiction that the character himself will put you on the track of the good stuff. Just don't expect him to solve any of his cases, or remember half the stuff he does.

Start with The Guards. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Also, I picked up Bruen's American Skin at Christmas, but haven't had a chance to start it since I picked up Pynchon's Against the Day at the same time. (Finally finished that beast on Tuesday night. My biceps have finally gotten huge from lugging a book around.) I was wondering if anyone had read it (American Skin, that is), what they thought of it, and how it compares to the Jack Taylor stuff?

Couldn't agree with you more about the Jack Taylor books. And that last chapter in The Dramatist was like a sucker punch. Jesus, that was brutal.

I wasn't thrilled with the ending of American Skin, but that being said, I still enjoyed it. It's Bruen so it's got great characters and plot. Gritty as hell.

For my birthday I got a couple Bruen books. Rilke on Black and Her Last Call to Louis MacNeice. Read Rilke and loved it. Last Call I'll probably get to in the next week or two. Which will only leave 2 of his books left to get a hold of. A Fifth of Bruen and Dispatching Baudelaire.

Mike

[Mike Steckler]

And the conclusion to the trilogy, The Bloomsday Dead, comes out in just a couple of weeks. A great run, almost completely under the radar. But that's the great thing about books - it's almost never too late to catch up (unless they go OOP, of course). Jump on the Michael Forsythe Express.


http://www.amazon.com/Bloomsday-Dead-Novel-Adrian-McKinty/dp/0743266447/sr=8-1/qid=1172148967/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2656457-8122364?ie=UTF8&s=books

I think I still have some Birthday money left, so I'll be treating myself. Happy Birthday to me. I've basically stopped picking up hardcovers because it became to expensive, so I'd check the new books out of the library if I couldn't wait for the paperbacks to come out. Adrian McKinty rates at the top, along with Pelecanos, Bruen, Stark and Stephen Hunter. Also, Victor Gischler, but his last book Shotgun Opera came out direct to paperback. There are several others as well, but I'm drawing a blank right now.

Mike

[Subotai]

Ever read anything on Bruen's personal life? Jesus, he's gone through some shit. Really nice guy in person, though, if you ever get the chance to go to Bouchercon or the like, don't pass it up.

[Mike Steckler]

Ever read anything on Bruen's personal life? Jesus, he's gone through some shit. Really nice guy in person, though, if you ever get the chance to go to Bouchercon or the like, don't pass it up.

No, I'll have to read his bio. Bouchercon looks like a real cool time.

I attended alot of Comic Conventions, so I haven't met alot of crime authors, except at last years New York Comic Con I ran into Charlie Huston. A really nice guy. And a couple of years ago, at a mystery book store that was only a couple of blocks from my house, I met Donald Westlake who was reading from Nobody Runs Forever. What an absoultely great guy. Couldn't have been nicer. Unfortunatly the store closed about six months later.

Mike

[Subotai]

Damn, that's awesome. Westlake.

Bookstores are dropping like flies, these days, alas. There is some evidence that the speciality bookstore, in the right location, can flourish, but it's pretty much all online these days. Tough to argue with Alibris and Amazon.

We've been lucky to have the last few Bourchercon's in pretty central locations - Toronto, Chicago, Wisconsin - but this year it's up in Alaska, IIRC.

[Shellhead]

George Alec Effinger wrote an excellent trilogy of noir-style books, only the setting is pretty exotic. Otherwise, it has several very strong noir elements. The protagonist is a tough and flippant private investigator. His enemies include a corrupt cop and a local crimelord. His friends and acquaintances are mostly bartenders, strippers. and hustlers. His cases include the stereotypical murder and missing persons work.

What lifts this series far above both its noir and cyberpunk roots is the setting: a rough urban neighborhood in a nameless country in the Mideast, set at least a century in the future. The main characters are mostly a decadent lot, and yet they are mostly muslims, of varying degrees of faith. The tension between the uneasy contrast of lifestyle and faith permeates the series, especially when the protagonist is pushed to become more serious about Islam. The resulting character development is unusual for both the noir and cyberpunk genres, and impressive. Everybody should at least try When Gravity Fails, the first book of the trilogy.

[Mike Steckler]

And the conclusion to the trilogy, The Bloomsday Dead, comes out in just a couple of weeks. A great run, almost completely under the radar. But that's the great thing about books - it's almost never too late to catch up (unless they go OOP, of course). Jump on the Michael Forsythe Express.


http://www.amazon.com/Bloomsday-Dead-Novel-Adrian-McKinty/dp/0743266447/sr=8-1/qid=1172148967/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2656457-8122364?ie=UTF8&s=books

This past weekend, on a mini vacation, finished The Dead Yard. Great book and what an ending.

Plus, managed to get in Charlie Huston's second Joe Pitt novel, No Dominion. Fun read, I'm really enjoying this series. I really liked the Hank Thompson trilogy, and I think the Joe Pitt series is going to be at least five books, so that'll be something to look forward to the next couple of years. Plus he's got a stand alone crime novel coming out later this year.

Mike

[Subotai]

Glad you liked The Dead Yard. Bloomsday comes out this week.

Picked up some Huston today, I think I'll dig it.

Also: A new Joe R. Lansdale! Lost Echoes, this one took me by surprise. I haven't been to his terrific website for a while, and Lansdale uses small press publishers, so they sometimes come out of left field.

Pretty much any Lansdale is worth reading, but this one looks especially good, much like the sublime The Bottoms a few years back.

[Mike Steckler]

Glad you liked The Dead Yard. Bloomsday comes out this week.

Picked up some Huston today, I think I'll dig it.

Also: A new Joe R. Lansdale! Lost Echoes, this one took me by surprise. I haven't been to his terrific website for a while, and Lansdale uses small press publishers, so they sometimes come out of left field.

Pretty much any Lansdale is worth reading, but this one looks especially good, much like the sublime The Bottoms a few years back.

I liked the ending of Dead Yard more than the ending of Dead I Well May Be. I found the writing just as good, but I just found the ending more explosive, I don't even know if that's the right terminology for it or not, but it left me more breathless than the first book. I'm about half-way through Bloomsday, and man, it's the best of the three at the half way point.

Have you read Hidden River? I have that on my pile, but I'm thinking of saving that for awhile because I don't know how long I'll have to wait for a new McKinty.

I don't think you're going to be disappointed at all with Charlie Huston. If you've got either the Hank Thompson books (which are a trilogy) or the Joe Pitt Casebooks (only two so far) the should be read in order. I know he's got a stand alone novel coming out later on the year as well.

I haven't read any Lansdale, but I'll have to give it a whirl. Have you tried Victor Gischler? His first book Gun Monkeys is great stuff.

Mike

[Mike Steckler]

Finished The Bloomsday Dead and Ken Bruin's Priest.

Bloomsday was a great read, and brings the trilogy to a very satisfying conclusion.

Priest. Man, you don't even need a mystery to read these Jack Taylor books to enjoy them.

I'm about half way through Declan Hughes' The Wrong Kind Of Blood. So far so good. An Irish mystery/thriller.

Mike

[Subotai]

I read both the McKinty and the Bruen in the past week - won't do better all year.

Dead - McKinty had to pull out the stops, and my God, he pulled it off. Completely unexpected, brutal ending. Forsythe has to be one of my favourite literary protagonists, ever.

Priest - Great Bruen. One thing he and McKinty share is their attitudes towards violence and its effects.

I have read Hidden River, but it's sort of lesser McKinty in my book. Doesn't rank up there with his Forsythe novels, but well worth the read.

Here's a pretty interesting interview with McKinty done for Colorado radio - very interesting listen.

http://www.kcfr.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=94&Itemid=234&target_pg=com_day&date=05/8/2005

[Rabid Trekkie]

I came across that while looking up Deathstalker info a couple of weeks ago, what happens in those books?

A supernatural detective, with a real private eye, solves mysteries in the secret and dark heart of London where you can indulge all of your vices for a price. He also investigates who his Mom is. Really awesome series.

[Mike Steckler]

I read both the McKinty and the Bruen in the past week - won't do better all year.

Dead - McKinty had to pull out the stops, and my God, he pulled it off. Completely unexpected, brutal ending. Forsythe has to be one of my favourite literary protagonists, ever.

Priest - Great Bruen. One thing he and McKinty share is their attitudes towards violence and its effects.

I have read Hidden River, but it's sort of lesser McKinty in my book. Doesn't rank up there with his Forsythe novels, but well worth the read.

Here's a pretty interesting interview with McKinty done for Colorado radio - very interesting listen.

http://www.kcfr.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=94&Itemid=234&target_pg=com_day&date=05/8/2005

Very good interview. Thanks. He seems like such a down to earth guy that really likes to take his characters to extremes. I think I'm going to hold off on Hidden River for one of those "rainy days".

Just finished the first two J.D. Rhoades Jackson Keller novels. Highly recommend them. Keller is a Desert Storm vet with massive amounts of baggage. There is an underlying violence than seems to be bubbling under the surface that suddenly and unexpectedly rears it's ugly head.

Just started Walking Money, the first James O Born novel. Very good read so far.

Mike

[Subotai]

Born is an interesting guy. A real-life cop who worked as a technical consultant on the Karen Cisco, the TV adaptation of Our of Sight. I've seen him speak at a couple of book cons.

The guy has all the tools; what I'd like to see, and it's not fair to expect this right away, but what I'd like to see is him moving beyond the standard cop thriller and getting a little deeper into the relationship of law enforcement to society, the way the great cop writers a la Joseph Wambaugh and Roderick Thorp do. Even Stephen J. Cannell, a writer I wrote off when he first appeared on the scene, has been making some steps in that direction.

I read & enjoyed the first Keller novel, didn't know there was a second. Have to check that out.

[Mike Steckler]

Finished "Walking Money" and enjoyed it alot. Nice, fast paced story. Look forward to reading his next couple of books. I think "Shock Wave" is next.

I'd been hearing alot about Cormac McCarthy's "The Road", it's even got it's own thread here, but when I went to the library it was all gone, so I tried "No Country For Old Men".

All I can say is, Jesus. What a great read. My god, I couldn't believe how sparse and uncompromising it was. I had never read any of his stuff before, and although there were a few spots throughout that I wasn't quite sure what was going on in terms of a time line, this book just blew me away. A definite keeper.

Just started "Nam-A-Rama" by Phillip Jennings, which is a Veitnam War satire that although not a crime/noir book, looks like it's going to be a fun read. We'll see.

Mike