Redeeming Cyclops [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

mattbib

07-02-2006, 12:29 PM

Offense #1
After missing the birth of his child while on a mission with the X-Men, a team he had already left, Cyclops sought to regain leadership, despite objections by Storm that his responsiblities were now elsewhere.

Offense #2
In X-Factor #1, in a burst of "inspired" writing and editorial direction, Scott Summers left his wife Madelyne alone in Alaska with their child after receiving a call from his old teammate, Warren Worthington, telling him that his love, Jean Grey, was alive. Scott didn't explain to Madelyne why he was leaving.

While Scott did call soon (X-Factor #2) to check on her, only to find the number had been disconnected, it wasn't until after Jean learned the truth about Scott's marriage and confronted him about it that Scott returned to Anchorage to find his house empty, his wife and child gone, and all record of them erased (X-Factor #13, 18).

The pairing of Jean and Scott set in stone at this point, it was left to Chris Claremont to resolve the situation. Seeing no way to salvage the character of Madelyne without harming that of Scott any further, he turned her into a demon-empowered clone of Jean and eventually had her killed.

Offense #3
Cyclops carried a heavy flirtation with his teammate Psylocke while he was still in a committed relationship with Jean.

Offense #4
Unable to deal with the essence of Apoclaypse that tainted him, and his wife's continued transformation into Phoenix, Scott confided in Emma Frost, and had a psionic affair with her.

Where do we go from here?
While each of these situations eventually resolved itself, we're still left with the fact that Scott's actions were often selfish and off-character. Additionally, his bad decisions and lack of communication led to Madelyne becoming the Goblyn Queen, Sinister's taking of baby Nathan, and much turmoil with the teams.

So, what already has beendone to redeem the character? Surely there are some storylines that have been written to help redeem Scott's failures (I immediately think of X-Men: The End). And what else could be done to make up for his unfaithfulness to his two wives?

Mikl C

07-02-2006, 12:34 PM

I'm just gonna give reasons why these were not Scott's fault and therefore he needs no redemption :P

Offense #1
After missing the birth of his child while on a mission with the X-Men, a team he had already left, Cyclops sought to regain leadership, despite objections by Storm that his responsiblities were now elsewhere.

He legitimately thought he could lead the x-men better than a powerless Storm. True, he owed his time to Maddy but it wasnt out of jealousy that he challenged Storm- he thought it was for the best.

Offense #2
In X-Factor #1, in a burst of "inspired" writing and editorial direction, Scott Summers left his wife Madelyne alone in Alaska with their child after receiving a call from his old teammate, Warren Worthington, telling him that his love, Jean Grey, was alive. Scott didn't explain to Madelyne why he was leaving.

While Scott did call soon (X-Factor #2) to check on her, only to find the number had been disconnected, it wasn't until after Jean learned the truth about Scott's marriage and confronted him about it that Scott returned to Anchorage to find his house empty, his wife and child gone, and all record of them erased (X-Factor #13, 18).

The pairing of Jean and Scott set in stone at this point, it was left to Chris Claremont to resolve the situation. Seeing no way to salvage the character of Madelyne without harming that of Scott any further, he turned her into a demon-empowered clone of Jean and eventually had her killed.

Erm... I'm finding it hard to come up with an excuse here... Let's say Sinister's fault.

Offense #3
Cyclops carried a heavy flirtation with his teammate Psylocke while he was still in a committed relationship with Jean.

Kwannon's fault :D

Offense #4
Unable to deal with the essence of Apoclaypse that tainted him, and his wife's continued transformation into Phoenix, Scott confided in Emma Frost, and had a psionic affair with her.

Emma's fault :D

CyCl0pz r0x!!1!!1

Tobias March

07-02-2006, 12:42 PM

While I would never argue that any of the examples you've listed are good character moments, the Maddie/Jean stuff is a mess, whenver a crack of humanity appears in Scott I'm tempted to applaud. His psychic affair with Emma (and his inability to relate to Jean during) I thought was the best handled, mainly because it focused directly on how much pressure he puts upon himself to be the perfect leader and inevitably fails. I've always been annoyed that AoA did not try to explore a different Summers. After all his visor stems from the fact that he is essentially brain-damaged from the fall that resulted from his parents' abduction. Were that not to have happened, he would have complete control over his abilities, presumably, and also have been a far more confident and secure individual.

mattbib

07-02-2006, 12:45 PM

I'm just gonna give reasons why these were not Scott's fault and therefore he needs no redemption :PMaking up excuses or laying blame elsewhere does't redeem a character. Scott willfully made the decision to ignore Maddie's requests to leave the X-Men, to leave his wife and child, to carry on a flirtation with another woman, and to confide in and carry on a mental affair with a woman other than his wife.

What has been done, or can be done, to salvage the character? To make up for these past mistakes?

spoon_jenkins

07-02-2006, 12:51 PM

I was going to start a thread about "Offense #2", but I guess I'll address it here. I think the whole leaving Maddie and joining X-Factor soured a number of fans and Chris Claremont on Cyclops.

It was a really awkward situation caused by the desire to bring Jean back and create a book around the Original 5. Really there's no 100% perfectly clean solution to it. But I actually think the solution that was created was good. I'm satisfied with it.

It's not just the Inferno Maddie as a clone thing. I think Louise Simonson did a good job at pulling Scott through that. To me, it works. I really like Jean and Scott together in X-Factor.

It's no more implausible or uncomfortable than any number of things in comics. Wolverine fine with killing and maiming folks for much of his career. But then he eviscerates Rachel for trying to kill Selene. Yet Claremont is okay with Wolverine as being a good guy. (Frankly, I don't buy the notion that Wolverine has had to kill and maim every bad guy he's faced to the extent that he has. All the time heroes put people out of commission by less serious means. So Wolvie was doing all the damage because it was absolutely necessary, but because it was convenient and fun.) So if we can get over the hypocrisy of Wolverine (or stuff like that), I've think we can get over Cyke's actions in the beginning of X-Factor.

Claremont has said he doesn't dislike Cyclops. Honestly, I don't believe him. I wish he'd accepted that Cyke can be considered redeemed rather than punishing him forever. I think CC may channel his disdain towards editorial for taking his character and forcing alterations in his stories (e.g. Scott and Madelyne happily ever after) in the creation of X-Factor and thus take it out on Cyclops.

Brian M.

07-02-2006, 12:53 PM

Making up excuses or laying blame elsewhere does't redeem a character. Scott willfully made the decision to ignore Maddie's requests to leave the X-Men, to leave his wife and child, to carry on a flirtation with another woman, and to confide in and carry on a mental affair with a woman other than his wife.

What has been done, or can be done, to salvage the character? To make up for these past mistakes?

I think he just needs to have years of good decisions. I mean after Inferno was all cleared up and pretty much right up until Emma came into the picture Cyclops was a very good man. He was good to Jean, he swayed once or twice about commitment but still every man does in a serious relationship. The biggest test will be when Jean comes back and Emma's still there. What to do.

Sentinel K

07-02-2006, 12:53 PM

Making up excuses or laying blame elsewhere does't redeem a character. Scott willfully made the decision to ignore Maddie's requests to leave the X-Men, to leave his wife and child, to carry on a flirtation with another woman, and to confide in and carry on a mental affair with a woman other than his wife.

What has been done, or can be done, to salvage the character? To make up for these past mistakes?

You have to put yourself in Scott's position though.

You're married to someone who is essentially, an inferior substitute to your SOUL MATE (at the time anyway :p).

Your soul mate then comes back. The person you loved more than life itself.

That is gonna F***ing rock your world. You are gonna make some crazy ass decisions that might not always be the RIGHT decision.

Yeah, he was selfish in regard to ditching Maddie, but he was thinking with his heart, not his head, and I think most people would have done the same.

Yeah you can call him a bastard for leaving his wife, but what would YOU have done?

HUH!?

Hi-Fi

07-02-2006, 12:54 PM

I can't see any excuses for him abandoning Madelyne. He didn't even called her when she gave birth, as Maddy herself says to Storm.

Hi-Fi

07-02-2006, 12:58 PM

You have to put yourself in Scott's position though.

You're married to someone who is essentially, an inferior substitute to your SOUL MATE (at the time anyway :p).

Your soul mate then comes back. The person you loved more than life itself.

That is gonna F***ing rock your world. You are gonna make some crazy ass decisions that might not always be the RIGHT decision.

Yeah, he was selfish in regard to ditching Maddie, but he was thinking with his heart, not his head, and I think most people would have done the same.

Yeah you can call him a bastard for leaving his wife, but what would YOU have done?

HUH!?

He abandoned his wife AND son. He didn't even bother to keep track of them. That's why Madelyne was almost killed by the Marauders. Only after that, Scott tried to track them down.

Foley

07-02-2006, 12:59 PM

Any start to Cyke's redemption needs to start with him acting like he has a daughter. He's gotta man up and deal with Rachel regardless of how she or Emma react. I want to see him away from Emma and Jean (for now). He needs to remember he's a good leader and needs to learn to be a good father

Sentinel K

07-02-2006, 01:01 PM

He abandoned his wife AND son. He didn't even bother to keep track of them. That's why Madelyne was almost killed by the Marauders. Only after that, Scott tried to track them down.

Now i haven't read all those issues of X-Factor, but he did return to Maddie after not long yes?

And he frantically searched for any trace of them before he gave up?

Stop me if i'm wrong.

mattbib

07-02-2006, 01:03 PM

Now i haven't read all those issues of X-Factor, but he did return to Maddie after not long yes?

And he frantically searched for any trace of them before he gave up?

Stop me if i'm wrong.He had told her he was going to NYC to see Warren for a few days, and that he couldn't NOT go.

Then in Issue #2 he called her and the phone was disconnected.

It wasn't until about Issue #13 or so that Jean found out he was married and demanded he check on his wife and kid, and that's when he returned to Alaska to find the house empty, them gone, and all record of them erased.

Hi-Fi

07-02-2006, 01:05 PM

He had told her he was going to NYC to see Warren for a few days, and that he couldn't NOT go.

Then in Issue #2 he called her and the phone was disconnected.

It wasn't until about Issue #13 or so that Jean found out he was married and demanded he check on his wife and kid, and that's when he returned to Alaska to find the house empty, them gone, and all record of them erased.

Meanwhile Madelyne was in the run, being chased my the Marauders. She was rescued by the X-Men after nearly getting killed.

Brian M.

07-02-2006, 01:05 PM

He had told her he was going to NYC to see Warren for a few days, and that he couldn't NOT go.

Then in Issue #2 he called her and the phone was disconnected.

It wasn't until about Issue #13 or so that Jean found out he was married and demanded he check on his wife and kid, and that's when he returned to Alaska to find the house empty, them gone, and all record of them erased.

Issue #7 I believe. Or #8. The boys let it slip out that he's married and she confronts him in some tunnels about it. He shows her the picture of Nathan and the picture of Maddy and tells her it should have been her. Awesome scene.

mattbib

07-02-2006, 01:08 PM

Meanwhile Madelyne was in the run, being chased my the Marauders. She was rescued by the X-Men after nearly getting killed.Right, but that's beside the point. That has no real bearing on the fact that Scott DID try to contact and find her.

IF he hadn't left, then yeah, that wouldn't have necessarily happened, but at least Scott DID regain some sense of responsibility in the end.

Hi-Fi

07-02-2006, 01:11 PM

Right, but that's beside the point. That has no real bearing on the fact that Scott DID try to contact and find her.

IF he hadn't left, then yeah, that wouldn't have necessarily happened, but at least Scott DID regain some sense of responsibility in the end.

But that was just because he got busted by Jean. If he wasn't confronted by her, he wouldn't start looking for Madelyne.

I mean, I can see and even understand a man that doesn't want anything more with his wife, but did he forget he had a son?? That's what bugs me. He was ready to re-start his life with Jean as if Nathan and Madelyne never existed.

Sentinel K

07-02-2006, 01:13 PM

So, guys, if the love of your life was suddenly no longer dead, would you NOT rush off to see her?

I bloody would. And I'd probably lie to my wife too, no matter how much i loved HER too. Doesn't mean I wouldn't feel BAD about it though. In fact I'd feel pretty shitty doing it but i'd do it all the same.

Brian Cronin

07-02-2006, 01:17 PM

What I liked about Scott/Emma that I think was botched with Scott/Jean/Maddie is that Morrison didn't try to have his cake and eat it, which is what editorial seemed to want with the Scott/Jean/Maddie situation.

They wanted Maddie gone but they also didn't want Scott to have to be seen as a "bad guy." But the more they avoided talking about it, the worse it made Scott look, so by the time they finally addressed it, it had been well over a year, which just looks weird.

Morrison didn't care what people thought of Scott. He didn't think Scott was a "bad guy" and he didn't care if people disagreed. So he just plowed ahead with the storyline.

The way they set up the Maddie plot, it looked like they really WANTED some way to "redeem" Scott. Morrison didn't seem to view Scott as NEEDING redemption.

I like that approach better.

-Brian

mattbib

07-02-2006, 11:27 PM

What I liked about Scott/Emma that I think was botched with Scott/Jean/Maddie is that Morrison didn't try to have his cake and eat it, which is what editorial seemed to want with the Scott/Jean/Maddie situation.

They wanted Maddie gone but they also didn't want Scott to have to be seen as a "bad guy." But the more they avoided talking about it, the worse it made Scott look, so by the time they finally addressed it, it had been well over a year, which just looks weird.

The way they set up the Maddie plot, it looked like they really WANTED some way to "redeem" Scott. Morrison didn't seem to view Scott as NEEDING redemption.

I like that approach better.Great point. So, is Cyclops even in need of redemption for his actions?

Brian M.

07-03-2006, 01:05 AM

Great point. So, is Cyclops even in need of redemption for his actions?

When it comes to his actions w/ Emma...no. When it comes to what he's done w/ Nathan...no. Leaving Maddie...yes. He needs to.

Marty4Magik

07-03-2006, 05:25 AM

Offense #1
After missing the birth of his child while on a mission with the X-Men, a team he had already left, Cyclops sought to regain leadership, despite objections by Storm that his responsiblities were now elsewhere.

Let's not forget, that when the X-men returned from Asgard, ALL the X-men called Maddie to ask how she was doing......except Scott...:mad:

Leaving your wife for your former love of your life, sure, shit happens...but leaving your SON?????
Un-for-give-able.

Tre Styles

07-03-2006, 09:11 AM

So, when/if Jean returns, will he leave Emma? I think that Mr. Summers has his priorities screwed up at times.

Anodyne

07-03-2006, 09:09 PM

Now i haven't read all those issues of X-Factor, but he did return to Maddie after not long yes?

And he frantically searched for any trace of them before he gave up?

Stop me if i'm wrong.
As soon as Scott saw a corpse that could pass for Madelyne, he promptly assumed his son was also dead. He made no further effort to find his baby till he saw his wife on TV. Some parents have spent years searching for a lost child; Scott just wrote his kid off. And he devoted :rolleyes: all of--what? half an hour? ten minutes?--to tracking his wife and son's supposed murderers.
He had told her he was going to NYC to see Warren for a few days, and that he couldn't NOT go.
He didn't say *why* seeing Warren was suddenly more important than working on their marital problems. Taking off right after assuring Maddie that "things will work out" was bad timing, to say the least. If there had been a real emergency in New York, he could have said so. The very fact that he didn't unthinkingly blurt out, "Jean's alive!" suggests to to me that, even then, part of him was ashamed to admit what he was doing.
Meanwhile Madelyne was in the run, being chased my the Marauders. She was rescued by the X-Men after nearly getting killed.
Right, but that's beside the point. That has no real bearing on the fact that Scott DID try to contact and find her.
He delayed over two weeks before trying to call home. One panel in X-Factor #1 takes place "two weeks later" than the previous panel; then there was the time spent on X-Factor's first mission. Mr. Sinister had plenty of time and opportunity, as Madelyne's new boss, to send her into the Marauder's ambush.
So, guys, if the love of your life was suddenly no longer dead, would you NOT rush off to see her?

I bloody would. And I'd probably lie to my wife too, no matter how much i loved HER too. Doesn't mean I wouldn't feel BAD about it though. In fact I'd feel pretty shitty doing it but i'd do it all the same.
Agreed, Scott's reaction was very human. But as Archy the cockroach said, "That's only an explanation, not an excuse."
Let's not forget, that when the X-men returned from Asgard, ALL the X-men called Maddie to ask how she was doing......except Scott...:mad:
It got worse. Going through the files at the Anchorage hospital, Scott thought, "My son was born in this hospital. How can thay have no record of it?" He didn't even care enough to remember that his wife had given birth on the X-mansion's kitchen floor, alone and thousands of miles from home.

Kaos

07-03-2006, 09:31 PM

anybody notice how he got pissed at his pop for being a bad father.....runs in the family...just wait cables gonna have a kid then disappear into the amazon...dunno why..but he will

xakko

07-03-2006, 09:34 PM

If we're really going to redeem him, we need to come up with something for the Maddie situation. We all know- well, those of use who like the character or believe Claremont or Simonson- that it seemed out of character for him to just abandon Maddy to the wolves like that.

The only way to retcon this and absolve Scott of some of the blame is to use Sinister. Sinister wanted the offspring of Scott Summers and Jean Grey. He had long term access to Scott, and enough access to Jean to be able to clone her. Would one of the preeminent long term manipulators really allow the possibility that he would not be able to wrest the child from two rather powerful mutants? Or would he perhaps have, in the process of conditioning Scott, laid the groundwork for Cyke to not form the proper emotional connection to his child? Maybe Mr. S even put some things into Maddie's programming to react with Scott's after a child is on the way? This could explain all the emotional distance and eventual abandonment that started the moment that Maddy announced she was preggers in X-Men/Alpha Flight (or rather, Xavier announced it for her), such as not calling after the birth.

It's a load of crap, but we're not given a lot to work with.

Meanwhile, over in Astonishing, Whedon has laid the groundwork to make the whole Scott-Emma thing a matter of Emma using her influence, either psychologically or psychically. That Scott remains with Emma is a product of Jean's "push" and his own mind rationalizing the feelings she manipulated in him were his own.

I think it was stated that there was influence involved with Psylocke, wasn't there?

Chiasm

07-03-2006, 09:38 PM

How to partially redeem Scott.

Reveal that Emma has been mind controlling him all along. She is in love with him but he didn't feel the same. So she controlled his mind to make him love her. Or if you don't want Emma to be the bad guy have it be Cassandra Nova who drove Scott to Emma in order to sow discord amongst the team. Regardless Scott is no longer to blame for cheating on Jean and can thus freely get back with her when she returns again.

Not much you can do to redeem him as far as Maddie goes. He was utterly wrong in what he did here. But he can gain partial redemption by becoming closer to Cable. Maybe by bonding with their son he can redeem himself as much as is possible with the mother of his child.

And he never actually cheated with Psylocke / Kwannon did he? I try to forget the 90's as much as possible so I can't remember for sure. You can't blame a guy for looking as long as he doesn't touch.

Hi-Fi

07-03-2006, 09:39 PM

And he never actually cheated with Psylocke / Kwannon did he? I try to forget the 90's as much as possible so I can't remember for sure. You can't blame a guy for looking as long as he doesn't touch.

She licked his face and they kissed. No, seriously.

xgeek52

07-03-2006, 09:55 PM

xakko

07-03-2006, 10:09 PM

*sigh* kinda fgigured this would happen during cyclops week...

for those who are just tuning in, i've been a part of this since the begining...it is not about redemption...it's about being human...

ask yourself, the love of your life returns and things in the back of your mind tells you something is not right with the one that you with...then you find out there's a son...

scott summers stepped up to the plate...

everyone looks at the surface of who scott summers is when it come to relationships...relationships are messy...the end of a relationship are even messier...

scott summers has stepped up to the plate...his relationships have sucked but he has always stuck by them...

point...everyone talks about him and maddie and him and emma...giant size xmen one -- the beginning of the second generation...it was jean who walked away...

nuf said..:cool:
jean left the x-men, not scott. at least, given the way they were shown getting together for Christmas in Uncanny 98...

whatever you may think about the love of your life returning, it is still an unforgivable and darn near inhuman action to just toss aside your wife and son. the point being, he didn't return to New York to start up his relationship with Jean again- just to verify that she was back.

His reaction to that might be written off as temporary insanity- going to Jamaica Bay for several days, cutting off contact with everyone, isn't the healthiest of situations. but had Warren not intervened in X-factor #1, Jean would've found out about Maddy immediately. I think she would've understood- she was dead, Scott moved on. Although i feel that would've been the death knell for Scott and Maddy, because everyone who sees Scott and Jean in a room together knows they want to be with one another.

Christopher O

07-03-2006, 10:24 PM

The only way to retcon this and absolve Scott of some of the blame is to use Sinister. Sinister wanted the offspring of Scott Summers and Jean Grey. He had long term access to Scott, and enough access to Jean to be able to clone her. Would one of the preeminent long term manipulators really allow the possibility that he would not be able to wrest the child from two rather powerful mutants? Or would he perhaps have, in the process of conditioning Scott, laid the groundwork for Cyke to not form the proper emotional connection to his child? Maybe Mr. S even put some things into Maddie's programming to react with Scott's after a child is on the way? This could explain all the emotional distance and eventual abandonment that started the moment that Maddy announced she was preggers in X-Men/Alpha Flight (or rather, Xavier announced it for her), such as not calling after the birth.

Reveal that Emma has been mind controlling him all along. She is in love with him but he didn't feel the same. So she controlled his mind to make him love her. Or if you don't want Emma to be the bad guy have it be Cassandra Nova who drove Scott to Emma in order to sow discord amongst the team. Regardless Scott is no longer to blame for cheating on Jean and can thus freely get back with her when she returns again.

With all due respect, these things would ruin Cyclops for me. I hate when characters are relieved of responsibility for their actions (ahem, Jean/Dark Phoenix). It cheapens the story, and it takes some of the humanity away from the characters. The best thing about a serial medium is that these characters can make amends for past mistakes (or not), which is a more interesting journey than having them magically absolved of guilt.

Nick Kal

07-04-2006, 01:02 AM

Offense #1
After missing the birth of his child while on a mission with the X-Men, a team he had already left, Cyclops sought to regain leadership, despite objections by Storm that his responsiblities were now elsewhere.

Offense #2
In X-Factor #1, in a burst of "inspired" writing and editorial direction, Scott Summers left his wife Madelyne alone in Alaska with their child after receiving a call from his old teammate, Warren Worthington, telling him that his love, Jean Grey, was alive. Scott didn't explain to Madelyne why he was leaving.

While Scott did call soon (X-Factor #2) to check on her, only to find the number had been disconnected, it wasn't until after Jean learned the truth about Scott's marriage and confronted him about it that Scott returned to Anchorage to find his house empty, his wife and child gone, and all record of them erased (X-Factor #13, 18).

The pairing of Jean and Scott set in stone at this point, it was left to Chris Claremont to resolve the situation. Seeing no way to salvage the character of Madelyne without harming that of Scott any further, he turned her into a demon-empowered clone of Jean and eventually had her killed.

Offense #3
Cyclops carried a heavy flirtation with his teammate Psylocke while he was still in a committed relationship with Jean.

Offense #4
Unable to deal with the essence of Apoclaypse that tainted him, and his wife's continued transformation into Phoenix, Scott confided in Emma Frost, and had a psionic affair with her.

Where do we go from here?
While each of these situations eventually resolved itself, we're still left with the fact that Scott's actions were often selfish and off-character. Additionally, his bad decisions and lack of communication led to Madelyne becoming the Goblyn Queen, Sinister's taking of baby Nathan, and much turmoil with the teams.

So, what already has beendone to redeem the character? Surely there are some storylines that have been written to help redeem Scott's failures (I immediately think of X-Men: The End). And what else could be done to make up for his unfaithfulness to his two wives?

Out of character is soooo subjective... people do things that we wouldn't normally suspect them of all the time. Why should fictional characters be any different?

CMBMOOL

07-04-2006, 05:58 AM

HE also kick out many of his former allies out of the mansion, even Xaiver when he gave him the job in the first place. :mad:

Don't tell me that offensive to many of his former students and to X-men fans. :mad:

Roquefort Raider

07-04-2006, 09:15 AM

Offense #1
After missing the birth of his child while on a mission with the X-Men, a team he had already left, Cyclops sought to regain leadership, despite objections by Storm that his responsiblities were now elsewhere.

I don't view that as an offense. Scott clearly had emotional issues with retiring from the hero biz, and wanted to retake the job he had given up in becoming a family man. How many star athletes want to make a come-back? Okay, so Scott's motivation may not have been that unselfish... but it was quite understandable. Furthermore, he himself knew he was in the wrong. As Wolvie mentioned at the time: "his heart isn't in it".

Offense #2
In X-Factor #1, in a burst of "inspired" writing and editorial direction, Scott Summers left his wife Madelyne alone in Alaska with their child after receiving a call from his old teammate, Warren Worthington, telling him that his love, Jean Grey, was alive. Scott didn't explain to Madelyne why he was leaving.

That was an incredibly clumsy piece of writing, totally out of character, and the blame should be put squarely at the feet of the editors who allowed such an atrocity. Scott, who had been written as the white starched longjohn type for decades, suddenly abandons his family? Come on. That mess was addressed (poorly) by different writers since, first by Louise Simonson who didn't "get" Scott at all (making him a mentally imbalanced whiner instead of a but somewhat socially inept introvert), and then by Chris Claremont who just turned Maddie into a monster (as if that made evrything right). None of these takes did any good to Cyclops' character.

The only way out of this mess I can see is to imagine that X-Factor 1-13 occured not over months, but over a week and a half and that Scott intended to tell Jean the truth right from the start and return home, but got slightly sidetracked.

Offense #3
Cyclops carried a heavy flirtation with his teammate Psylocke while he was still in a committed relationship with Jean.

That was actually okay with me, because Betsy was indeed a stunning looking woman. The main point here is that Scott got tempted (as happens in real life) but ultimately resisted. I mean, Jean herself is troubled by her attraction to Logan.

Offense #4
Unable to deal with the essence of Apoclaypse that tainted him, and his wife's continued transformation into Phoenix, Scott confided in Emma Frost, and had a psionic affair with her.[/b]

The problem I have with the affair is that Morrison couldn't convince me that Scott really cared for Emma. In fact, when Scott said at the end of "Planet X" that he had made his choice between the two women, I was convinced that he had chosen Jean... and only ended up with Emma because of the emotional shove that Phoenix gave him to prevent the "here comes tomorrow" timeline.

If the current storyline establishes that Scott was manipulated into being with Emma, I wouldn't be particularly upset.

Where do we go from here?
While each of these situations eventually resolved itself, we're still left with the fact that Scott's actions were often selfish and off-character.

I would avoid rehashing past failings that were due to stupid editorial decisions more than to actual problems with Scott's character. I'd have him resume his role as the institute's mainstay, Xavier's successor groomed from day one, and a guy everyone can look up to. He can stay distant, as he's always been that... but he should stop doubting himself every five minutes. He never used to doubt himself before the mid-eighties; at worst he'd worry about hurting people with his optic blast.

I'd also address something about him that hasn't been stressed enough: Scott's main quality as a team leader is his discipline. He's not the smartest person on the team, nor a particularly amazing strategist. He's not the strongest, nor the most agile, nor the best scrapper, nor the most powerful. What he's got is that he doesn't stop pushing himself. He's basically always on the job.

What he needs for his redemption is to be shown doing the right thing for a while, and blow a few more sentinels to smithereens.

Sentinel K

07-04-2006, 09:24 AM

The only way out of this mess I can see is to imagine that X-Factor 1-13 occured not over months, but over a week and a half and that Scott intended to tell Jean the truth right from the start and return home, but got slightly sidetracked.

Scott was actually about to tell Jean in X-Factor #3.

Before they are interrupted by Warren on the intercom, telling them to get to the med-lab.

Scott clearly intended to tell her. Things just kept getting in the way.

When is a good time to tell the woman who you love, and who loves you, that you're married and have a kid on the way?

tunasammiches

07-04-2006, 02:12 PM

Well since had a long history of selfish acts, I'd have to say that THAT IS his character. He's flawed. That's ok. It could be so easy for him to be written as a boring one-dimensional character. His flaws are kinda what saves him from being 100% waste of space.

xakko

07-04-2006, 02:14 PM

Out of character is soooo subjective... people do things that we wouldn't normally suspect them of all the time. Why should fictional characters be any different?
well, i'll go with the opinion of the guy who had been writing him for a decade or so at the time, who stated that it was terribly out of character.

but that's just me.

Micro

07-04-2006, 06:21 PM

What i would like to happen to redeem Cyclops:

*I would have Emma secretely trying to take over the X-men since the Grant Morrison run, and she sees Cyclops as the best way to do this.
*When Jean Grey died, she moved her mind into Emma's, similar to how she did this in way back in Uncanny X-men 281-283 I believe it was. However because she is within Emma's mind, Emma is in control. I would have Emma keeping Jean within her trapped inside her mind, unable to return to her real body. Furthermore, Emma is using Jean's mental link with Scott, and purposely manipulating him by using Jean's mind to help. I would have Scott finally figure all this out, and have to face the choice of killing Emma to save Jean or allow her to live with Jean trapped inside her head. Cyclops would confront Emma, asking her why she didn't tell him, and why she is keeping Jean trapped. Emma would tell him she can't help it, and its beyond her control. Cyclops would say "no more lies" and blast her down. She would cry out "don't you love me"... and Cyclops would say "you made me think I did". Then he would give her one final chance to release Jean, and out of desperation, Emma would try to kill Jean within her mind. Scott would sense this, and then put an end to her life, freeing Jean.

Jasoncountdown

07-04-2006, 07:36 PM

On Scott/Emma: In the last issue of The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix Rachel says something like "Apocalypse took our family away but today we've taken it back" after they've defeated him. So maybe 'lypse, in an act of vengeance against the family that has given him such a headache over the years, planted subliminal thoughts in Scott's head that would cause him to act coldly to Jean and betray her. Scott says a couple of times in Morrisson's run that he knows he'll let Jean down and that he "can't help it" like he's been pre-programmed to betray her. Or maybe Apocalypse simply just extinguished Scott's love for Jean.

Either way, i'd prefer that to the Emma-psychically-manipulated-me thing, despite that being in-character for Emma (zebra can't change it's stripes overnight). Jean would've been able to tell if there was any tampering going on anyway from her rampage through Emma's mind.

atoningunifex

07-04-2006, 07:53 PM

Scott Summers is basically a child. He can only truly cope with situations that are clear-cut, black and white. This is why he is an excellent tactician. If you give him an enemy he can utilize every asset he has to defeat the enemy. He can fight the bad guy and win. But if you give him a complex personal situation he falls apart. He has no ability to navigate human emotion. He has no ability to deal with the complexities of life. When life becomes too complicated for him he runs, lashes out, or screws around.

He doesn't need to redeem himself. He needs to grow up. And as long as he's with the X-Men he won't be able to. As long as he's with the X-Men he will be able to make his life about the good vs. evil, the dualistic worldview.

As long as there is a Cyclops, there will never be an adult Scott Summers.

xgeek52

07-04-2006, 08:18 PM

*whips head in a double take*

A CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*calms down*

scott summers is a lot of things but a child he is not...he sees black and white because he has had be more of an adult than any of teen...how would you deal with the fact that you had a power that you couldn't control...he was already an orphan, an introvert -- then the powers came...

what would do if you were already repressed...

over the last 40 plus years, scott summers had battled duty and repsonsibility over what he wanted in his life...he has faced his responsibility as best he could, like all of us have...

atonigunifex says as long as there is a cyclops there 'will never be a scott summers'...but cyclops exists and has since he was a teen...he has accepted the responsibility as leader of the xmen from the beginning -- and he was barely seventeen (i'm guessing here)....

to borrow a phrase -- with great power comes great responsibility...scott summers, with all the characters flaws has faced that responsibility...

it is the mark of an adult, not a child...

and notice in all my post i call him scott summers...

'nuf said...:cool:

Syzygy

07-04-2006, 08:42 PM

Are we only talking about Scott's personal failures?

What about Cyclops' professional failures?

Such as allowing the O.N.E. to turn the Xavier estate into a concentration camp, or stupidly getting 42 children blown up?

Really...loading 42 children on board an unarmored bus, with no accompanying escort? Is this really the best he can do? He knows, for example, that villains like Exodus have tried to kill every kid in the mansion before (during Austin's run). Didn't he run even one tactical simulation, saying, "OK, what if we've got these kids on the bus, and they drive off, and Exodus shows up to kill them out of pure, unadulterated malice. Gee, maybe Rogue and Psylocke should stay with them?"

After the school bus debacle, shouldn't he and Frost step down as headmasters? This seems like a rather severe failure to me....

Anybody can mess up their personal life. IMO, none of us are professionals when it comes to life relationships.

But I thought Cyclops was a pro tactician. No more.

Nick Kal

07-04-2006, 09:22 PM

well, i'll go with the opinion of the guy who had been writing him for a decade or so at the time, who stated that it was terribly out of character.

but that's just me.

Who would that be? Claremont? Cause his writing at this point stinks... so I don't think his opinion is too reliable on current day X-Stories... unless he wants to kill Dazzler some more or write some X-Dino stories...

xakko

07-04-2006, 09:28 PM

Who would that be? Claremont? Cause his writing at this point stinks... so I don't think his opinion is too reliable on current day X-Stories... unless he wants to kill Dazzler some more or write some X-Dino stories...
i'm talking about Chris Claremont, yes. Claremont around the time of the decision to bring back Jean and break up Scott and Maddie.

whatever you may think of his recent work, if you don't think the man could write then, that he didn't understand the X-universe better than anyone alive, well, that's your mistake.

Nick Kal

07-04-2006, 11:23 PM

i'm talking about Chris Claremont, yes. Claremont around the time of the decision to bring back Jean and break up Scott and Maddie.

whatever you may think of his recent work, if you don't think the man could write then, that he didn't understand the X-universe better than anyone alive, well, that's your mistake.

His stuff is classic, true, but his opinion is not the be all, end all.

mattbib

07-05-2006, 12:22 AM

When is a good time to tell the woman who you love, and who loves you, that you're married and have a kid on the way?The kid had already been born...

Majinlex

07-05-2006, 05:14 AM

anybody notice how he got pissed at his pop for being a bad father.....runs in the family...just wait cables gonna have a kid then disappear into the amazon...dunno why..but he will
lol, do you know who Genesis is? :D

HE also kick out many of his former allies out of the mansion, even Xaiver when he gave him the job in the first place. :mad:

Don't tell me that offensive to many of his former students and to X-men fans. :mad:
Yeah, but Xavier was being a dick. I think he mostly kicked him out, not only becuase he wasn't a mutant anymore, but because he had lied to and manipulated them. That's something "Saint" Xavier said he'd never do. I think Cyclops was totally justified in kicking him out (and it was pretty bad-ass too)
I can totally understand if he was leaving Maddy just to see Jean and then come back, but it seems he just outright abandoned her. That was harsh.
I'm not crazy about the whole Emma thing but I was never crazy about anything to do with Morrisons run (I hated it)
And as for Psylocke, who wouldn't want to hit that? :D

Roquefort Raider

07-05-2006, 06:21 AM

His stuff is classic, true, but his opinion is not the be all, end all.

I think xakko refers to Claremont's opinion at the time, back when he was basically the only writer to have handled Scott for the previous ten years or so. In that regard, I would agree that if he deemed the way Scott was pictured in the new X-factor book was out of character, then his opinion should have carried a lot of weight.

The same would be true if Doug Moench said that Shang-Chi was written out of character in his "Journey into mystery" brief stint, or if, say, John Byrne said that most Alpha Flight members were written out of character by Bill Mantlo.

Chris' opinion today is less relevant, I agree, but back then he was the guy who had made Cyclops into the character that he was. Accordingly, his work should have been paid more respect by whoever decided to write Scott as if he was a jerk.

Cheers!

- Ben

Sentinel K

07-05-2006, 06:41 AM

The kid had already been born...

Really?

My memory is fuzzy. I need to re-read those issues. :confused:

shaunyc56

07-05-2006, 07:26 AM

Cyclops is my favorite Xman, no doubt about it. The guy is by no means perfect. The Maddie stuff, I gotta admit, the guy let his emotions get the better of him and he ran off to see his newly resurrected soul mate. It wasn't perfect, it was human.

The cheating on Jean stuff.... Blegh... How many times are we subjected to Jean losing control and finding herself in the arms of everyone's favorite hair bag dwarf. So Scott had an affair of his own, So what.

Scott has always been shown as a great tactician, nobodies perfect, tactical fire team leadership is incredibly difficult. It doesn't help that half your team is second guessing the crap out of you all the time because that makes them feel "cool".

I don't think he needs to do anything but maybe have an issue where he looks at his life, expresses some sorrow for his mistakes and aknowledges them. No mind control, no clone nonsense.

I do think he should look for more of a relaitionship w/ Cable and Pheonix. Their his kids, and its never too late to strengthen those relationships.

Arilou

07-05-2006, 07:39 AM

Scott likes the ladies, seems simple as that.

cyclops2500

07-05-2006, 10:30 AM

Scott Summers is a good man with two weaknesses: The X-Men and the ladies.

He uses his team and his lover to define him, so they tend to dwarf all his other concerns.

There's no redemption for Scott's past mistakes. Abandoning your wife and child to go muck around with your ex is wrong. All the extenuating circumstances do not allow him to forget his responsibilities. Maddie's eventual turn excuses nothing. She was not aware of SInister or his plans. She did not intentionally try to hurt Scott, she simply allowed herself to succumb to her demons. Same as Scott.

What does this mean for my favortie comic book character? It means he's human. Let him be.

mattbib

07-07-2006, 08:32 AM

There's no redemption for Scott's past mistakes. Abandoning your wife and child to go muck around with your ex is wrong.I don't think anyone's beyond redemption. It seems that if this was a real man people would be a lot more forgiving; this sort of stuff happens all the time in real life. And while the ex and kids might hold resentment outside parties are hardly ever outraged like those who've lambasted Scott over the past twenty years.

Zero Hunter

07-07-2006, 10:56 AM

How about keeping your only child in a situtation where he was in constant danger? Even once he got baby Nate back he still kept on playing super hero which resulted in Nate being infected with the TO virus by Apocolypse. You would have thought after losing him and Maddy once he would have left the adventuring with his son and tried to bring him up in a safer way.

Kinda says unfit parent to me.

Omega Alpha

08-20-2006, 11:23 PM

Effect

08-23-2006, 10:52 AM

I have to agree, that Offense #1 isn't really an offense. Just bad thinking on his part.

Offense #2 can never be forgiven I think. The damage that resulted out of it is just to great and has had to much of a lasting affect. The damage to the character as well can't be forgotten I think. The only way to redeem this I feel (especially due to the very bad writing and planning of this) is for reality to be redone (in universe) in such a way that none of these events ever happen and it's made completely clear to readers and characters those events never happen but something else did and that becomes the truth and doesn't change again. That results though in undoing a LOT of events for a lot of characters. That just isn't possible I feel. This one is going to stick to Scott until the character is dead and even then after that.

Offense #3 I agree shouldn't be held against him. He was tempted and came back. Jean has had her problems with her feelings for Logan (she has more to redeem in this regard then Scott I think).

Offense #4 Now I don't see this is at the level of #2. There are a good number of in-universe situations that can be used to explain this away or allow him to redeem himself from this. Several have been stated already. I know people get tired of mind control but it really fits in this situation. Anyway, this can be redeem or at least on it's way by having it shown and said that while Emma did love Scott (I don't mind this), she or someone else used their powers to push him toward her. That while attracted to her (this is understand due to how she looks) he never had romantic feelings toward and those are kinda forced.

The biggest problem though Scott faces that I think is on the level of #2 and maybe even above it is the handling of the school and allowing Emma the level of control she has. He has completely failed here and the only way to redeem him in this situation a number of things have to take place.

#1 I think he has to admit (he's been writen already as not liking what Emma is doing) that Emma has no business running this school or teaching young children (older teens and adults are fine but even older teens is risky) and remove her from her position in the school and keep her away from impressionable children and teens. Keep her an X-man but remove her from the school setting.

#2 He himself has to hand over control of the school to someone else and simply just lead the X-men teams. That's where his mind is and where he actually belongs based on past actions (what he has allowed to happen to the school, children dying to O.N.E turning the school into a prison, etc...).

#3 Control of the school should be handed to someone like Beast and someone normal looking (love Beast but you know...) to be the public figure and someone else students can relate to. They don't have to be really powerful either. They have to be an actual good teacher and have the ability to admin a school.

#4 Keep the control of the school and X-teams seperate. The leader of one should not be leading the other. There needs to be more focus on either by it's leaders, not split down the middle the way it is now. X-men teaching classes is fine. There are a lot of well educated (in various ways) people in the X-men but an active or semi-active X-man should not be leading or controlling the school. There needs to be a non-combatant in charge that will think of the safety of the students first and foremost. One that will go to the X-men about what can be done to protect the students and leave the X-men to find out ways.

When you do everything you overlook a lot of things and don't see certain dangers when they are right in front of you. When the X-men were first starting that could be done without much trouble. It was just 5 students and Xavier didn't have to split his attention in to many directions. The same thing can't work now and shouldn't be able to work.

Omega Alpha

08-23-2006, 12:51 PM

So your way of redeeming Cyclops is to make Emma Frost a rapist? He clearly chooses to be with her, has serious arguments with her more than once, and there's nothing that indicates that he's sexually attracted to her before NXM 131, when they begin the affair. You're all nuts!:mad:

Arilou

08-23-2006, 02:50 PM

Now I don't see this is at the level of #2. There are a good number of in-universe situations that can be used to explain this away or allow him to redeem himself from this. Several have been stated already. I know people get tired of mind control but it really fits in this situation. Anyway, this can be redeem or at least on it's way by having it shown and said that while Emma did love Scott (I don't mind this), she or someone else used their powers to push him toward her. That while attracted to her (this is understand due to how she looks) he never had romantic feelings toward and those are kinda forced.

Ah, but that's easy, because someone *did* "push" Scott towards Emma: Jean Grey.

Valen

08-23-2006, 03:31 PM

I don't think his character needs to be redeemed. The real world is full of leaders who have problems morally or bad past actions who make excellent leaders. I would pull President Clinton out as an example of this.

Cyclops made some really bad choices, but he has also saved many lives. I think both can exist at the same time.

Ghostman

08-23-2006, 06:40 PM

Here's what Cyke needs to do to redeem himself:

1. Drop Emma and have his character be defined on his own merits. They need to make him like Mark Millar's Cyclops, Claremont's Cyclops. A true leader.

2. Have him step up. Have him actually be a leader to the school. Actually have him makke the decisions. Have him be the rep for the X-Men in other books, not Emma. Dont have every X-Man verbally own him all the time.

Indigo Al

08-23-2006, 07:09 PM

Scott's always been a passive slut; he's never pursued anyone, it's always been these women who have thrown themselves at him, attracted to his "tightly wound" mystique.

He's already been redeemed in AXM#1, when he optic blast-f***ed Wolverine and essentially told him that yes, he's sleeping w Emma and no, he need not ever apologize nor be tortured about it.

Scott will surely evolve into an ethical slut soon.

Omega Alpha

08-23-2006, 10:05 PM

Babylon23

08-23-2006, 11:23 PM

Hey, Scott's a self-centred, selfish prick. Why bother redeeming him when he's much more interesting that way.

Hawkingbird82

08-24-2006, 12:51 AM

One day people will accept that a character can move on and have another relationship.

Leave Emma alone. I love that he's in love with her.

Effect

08-24-2006, 05:34 AM

It's not the point of having a character move on. That's all well and fine, it happens. What is the problem is how it's exactly done and if it makes any type of sense or not or follows any sort of logic. That's what the problem is and everything else spins out of that I feel.

theardri

08-24-2006, 12:30 PM

anybody notice how he got pissed at his pop for being a bad father.....runs in the family...just wait cables gonna have a kid then disappear into the amazon...dunno why..but he will
'
Cable HAD a Kid (Tyler), who got brainwashed by his "Uncle" Stryfe, then Logan did a major "repaint" on him when Tyler (Genesis) tried to put the metal back in him.

Cable I think tried to rescue his son on a number of occasions? Difference between Cable and Scott, is Cable is more a Grey than a Summers.

Omega Alpha

08-24-2006, 01:57 PM

'
Cable HAD a Kid (Tyler), who got brainwashed by his "Uncle" Stryfe, then Logan did a major "repaint" on him when Tyler (Genesis) tried to put the metal back in him.

Cable I think tried to rescue his son on a number of occasions? Difference between Cable and Scott, is Cable is more a Grey than a Summers.

Actually, Scott did raise Nathan: He and Jean went to the future and raised him together for twelve years, after that coming back to the present. It was all shown in The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix. And he was a good father on the issues they were together in X-factor.

One day people will accept that a character can move on and have another relationship.

Leave Emma alone. I love that he's in love with her.

The problem is that most people are too used to Scott&Jean to accept anything else. People who aren't following them for so long, don't like them together or is just more open-minded are mostly accepting them with no problem.

Omega Alpha

08-24-2006, 02:01 PM

Double post, sorry.

Valen

08-24-2006, 02:47 PM

Valen and Indigo Al are in the right path. You want all the characters to be Superman and Cap. America, perfect leaders and perfect persons, simbols of all that is good and nice in the world? Nah, i want my characters to be human beings, and many human beings cheat! Including many that are criticizing Scott Summers.
Definitely. I think without having some areas of grey within some characters makes the world of comics boring and unrealistic (relatively speaking when referring to people with optic blasts and diamond skin).

originalxmen

09-01-2006, 06:27 PM

It wasn't Scott's fault that some writers decided he would be somebody else as of issue #xyz. Many of us miss Scott, the real one.

TheDrizzt

09-01-2006, 09:13 PM

How to "redeem" Cyclops in light of his past actions?

My idea has always been to reveal that Sinister slightly altered his genes to... um, make him a serial fertilizer. Jumping from woman to woman gives Sinister a greater chance to examine the effects of the Summers bloodlines. Also, because it would be on a genetic, rather than mental, level, Xavier and Jean would never have detected the manipulation.

mattbib

09-01-2006, 09:17 PM

Christopher O

09-01-2006, 09:37 PM

Many of us miss Scott, the real one.
If by the "real one" you mean the annoyingly uptight boyscout with no distinguishable character flaws, then I hope you continue to miss him. I don't want him back.

Slung

09-01-2006, 10:04 PM

Offense #3 shouldn't be there. Betsy was the one flirting. He was heavily attracted to her, but wasn't really flirting. And when she kissed him, he said no, way more firmly than Jean ever said to Logan.
To be fair to Jean and Logan, the three or so times they kissed (other than Morrison's attempt at justifying Scott's affair) they were about to die. It wasn't like they were setting out to have make out or sneak around behind Scott's back. And, they weren't having a sexual relationship. Was it wrong, sure. Was it on the level of Scott leaving Maddie or cheating on Jean? Not by a long shot.

Offense #2: Madelyne was the one which said "Don't come back" kind of irrationaly considering that she didn't even know why he wanted to go to NY, but i agree, this is his worse. But still makes the character more human. This is Scott's Mutant Massacre, his Carol Danvers, his Vulcan, the great mistake of his life, the one whom, no matter how much he was a good father for Nathan in X-factor after Inferno, no matter how he and Cable have a good relationship, will always be there to haunt him, like even thought Remy, Rogue or Xavier work, they will always have this in their past.
I think his affair with Emma still gets the cake for worse decision. He left Maddie to see Jean, but he didn't actively pursue a relationship with her. It was insensitive and cruel, but it wasn't purely immoral.

It leaves #4, from which, if there's redemption (and if he needs it), there's only one: this relationship with Emma last, if not forever, for at least as much time or almost as it lasted with Jean, for them to actually love each other deeply, and that he learns from his mistakes, and be a better husband. Jean's fans can say whatever you want, but you know this it. Stop with the damn mind-control thing.
I think the only redemption for Scott is to break it off from Frost and try to work out his serious relationship issues. His rebound romance with her is very unhealthy and started out as a creepy therapist/patient relationship that spiraled out of control into an affair and culminated in making out on his deceased wife's grave. Not very good taste. And easily the worse thing Cyclops has ever done (regardless of a poor attempt at making it justified by having goddess-Jean bless the union). What happened to Maddie was unthinkably caddish. What happened to Jean trumps it on every level.

I find it strange that these threads always end up bashing either a)Jean or b) Emma. Jean certainly didn't deserve any heat from this situation - she is the victim. And, while Emma did her darnedest to seduce Scott, he certainly wasn't putting up too big of a fight.

And blaming Jean for what happened to Maddie is also a bit ridiculous - she didn't even know Maddie existed and when she did she sent Scott away.

Omega Alpha

09-01-2006, 10:08 PM

My idea has always been to reveal that Sinister slightly altered his genes to... um, make him a serial fertilizer. Jumping from woman to woman gives Sinister a greater chance to examine the effects of the Summers bloodlines. Also, because it would be on a genetic, rather than mental, level, Xavier and Jean would never have detected the manipulation.

Well, how many children Jean had (in this reality)? Yeah, worked pretty well...

If we have to make Sinister manipulate him, than it just makes more sense that Dr.Essex, knowing that he and Jean having a kid it would be ultrapowerful, programmed him to fall in love with Jean, the same way he programmed Maddy (he couldn't program Jean to fall for him because she was already with Xavier). After merging with Apocalypse, this programming was seriously damaged, and being with Emma was the thing that made him free. How's that sound?:D

Seriously, stop with those dumb ideas. The character did something you don't like. Live with it or stop reading.

originalxmen

09-03-2006, 03:29 AM

If by the "real one" you mean the annoyingly uptight boyscout with no distinguishable character flaws, then I hope you continue to miss him. I don't want him back.Glad to know you like him, because you've been reading about somebody else the last 40 years.

He's an orphan who can't express his feeligns due to the abuses suffered during his entire childhood. No family, no friends, no home. He's an outcast uncapable of opening his eyes without destroying everything around. He's lost the woman he loved and his son. And yet he's the most devoted X-Man and the one responsible of the entire team. True, he has no flaws.

Don't worry, if the book is selling pretty well, you must be right.

Christopher O

09-03-2006, 08:16 AM

Glad to know you like him, because you've been reading about somebody else the last 40 years.
Oh, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. Cyclops was one of my least favorite characters until Grant Morrison got his brilliant hands on him.

He's an orphan who can't express his feeligns due to the abuses suffered during his entire childhood. No family, no friends, no home. He's an outcast uncapable of opening his eyes without destroying everything around. He's lost the woman he loved and his son. And yet he's the most devoted X-Man and the one responsible of the entire team. True, he has no flaws.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Is that sarcasm?

Don't worry, if the book is selling pretty well, you must be right.
Who said anything about being right? I just don't want Cyclops to revert to the perfect little boyscout with his perfect little wife and his perfect little life. I prefer the direction Morrison and Whedon have gone with the character.

Omega Alpha

09-03-2006, 09:51 AM

Cyclops was never perfect, or never shown as a perfect character (i can't say the same about Jean, though). Ever since day one, he was shown as excessively shy and insecure,, often brooding, more than once after become the leader was shown as a control-freak, and when he found out that Jean was back, he didn't just go back to her, or stayed with Maddy, he was walking around the streets of NY for days or weeks without talking to anyone, and nearly had a mental breakdown because he couldn't cope with the situation, and for 25 issues was on the edge and close to lose his mind because he couldn't decide one way or the other, etc, how's that for perfect?

But i agree that after the marriage and until Morrison came, he didn't get any development, and the writers did not seem much interested in his flaws (or in him).

Mariah

09-03-2006, 09:56 AM

But i agree that after the marriage and until Morrison came, he didn't get any development, and the writers did not seem much interested in his flaws (or in him).
What other flaw, other than male slut, does he have?

Seriously, I've never hid my feelings on the summers men, and their migraine inducing treatment of women, but I think his flaws has always been hinted on, since day one. It's just people didnt' say "o, look, Grant Morrison is making him into a brooding, recluse, who has a hard time showing his feelings. Now that's kick ass!" Pfft. Douche's, one and all.

Christopher O

09-03-2006, 10:01 AM

Duche's, one and all.
Now, is that like "douche" or do you want me to pass it on the left hand side?

Mariah

09-03-2006, 10:10 AM

Now, is that like "douche" or do you want me to pass it on the left hand side?
I had a brain spasm, at the thought of people thinking Scott was interesting, no matter who gets their hands on him. but go ahead, share it by all means.

Christopher O

09-03-2006, 10:12 AM

but go ahead, share it by all means.
Oh, good! I was hoping you would say that. ;)

Omega Alpha

09-03-2006, 10:22 AM

What other flaw, other than male slut, does he have?

Excessively insecure, control-freak, has serious difficulties in express his feelings and to relax, somewhat of a workaholic, etc...

I had a brain spasm, at the thought of people thinking Scott was interesting

:rolleyes: :p

Mariah

09-03-2006, 10:23 AM

Oh, good! I was hoping you would say that. ;)
I hear the sounds of musical youth dancing through my head...
pass the douchie on the left hand side, you really really get em something something something.

Mariah

09-03-2006, 10:25 AM

:rolleyes: :p
*kicks alpha in the taint* roll your eyes again!:p

TheDrizzt

09-14-2006, 10:38 AM

Well, how many children Jean had (in this reality)? Yeah, worked pretty well...
About as well as Sinister's other plots.

Like staking out Havok and Polaris for the same reason. How many kids did they produce? And then giving up on the whole thing once PAD left X-Factor.

Seriously, stop with those dumb ideas. The character did something you don't like. Live with it or stop reading.
Seriously, stop with those dumb comments. I wrote something you don't like. Live with it or stop reading.

;)

Charles RB

09-14-2006, 12:22 PM

Jean certainly didn't deserve any heat from this situation - she is the victim.

Jean psychically entered Emma's mind and had her relieve memories like her brother going insane & threatened to have her relieve the death of all her dead students, in order to find out if Emma had slept with Scott (which, as Jean looking in Scott's mind showed, she hadn't).

Even though she had a right to be pissed off, that's overkill.

shaunyc56

09-14-2006, 01:01 PM

Omega Alpha

09-14-2006, 01:41 PM

You know what kills me about that, for some reason people believe that when a woman's feelings are hurt, that gives her the right to do whatever she wants in the name of romantic retribution. Scott might be cheating on me, better read his mind, 2 wrongs always make a right, and I'm gonna mind rape that blonde bitch to find out what I need, and cause I don't like her.

Has Scott been a douche, Si, the guy aint perfect, unless on the battlefield he usually f#$Ks it up w/ the ladies, like a lot of guys. Now Jean the matyr, she can drown her sorrows in furry troll kisses anytime she wants, no biggie.

And if Scott sleeps with another woman who was all over him, he's a bastard. But if Jean tries to kiss (and maybe do other things) another man (whom refused), she's just doing it because Scott is being a bad husband and that's understandable, after all just because he was sharing his mind with one of the greatest psychos on the planet, he has no right to become alienated.

shaunyc56

09-14-2006, 02:20 PM

And if Scott sleeps with another woman who was all over him, he's a bastard. But if Jean tries to kiss (and maybe do other things) another man (whom refused), she's just doing it because Scott is being a bad husband and that's understandable, after all just because he was sharing his mind with one of the greatest psychos on the planet, he has no right to become alienated.

Scott made mistakes, Jean made mistakes, they are a trainwreck, that's why I like them together, but for Scott to always be the villian and Jean always having a excuse why it's not her fault.... It just isn't right....

Arilou

09-14-2006, 03:33 PM

You know, it would be kind of fun if Jean came back and became Scott's crazy stalker. Now THAT would be a slightly different direction to take things :p

Slung

09-14-2006, 04:37 PM

Jean psychically entered Emma's mind and had her relieve memories like her brother going insane & threatened to have her relieve the death of all her dead students, in order to find out if Emma had slept with Scott (which, as Jean looking in Scott's mind showed, she hadn't).

Even though she had a right to be pissed off, that's overkill.

They are both telepaths. Thats how they would deal with the situation. Having a heated discussion inside the mind. Rachel and Emma did it too. Now, the difference was that Emma's memories began enveloping Jean. Jean wasn't forcing them out, they were pouring out of Emma. Emma had a lot of guilt and some serious emotional issues. Emma relived them yes, but it seemed more therapeutic in the end.

I really can't see how Jean going straight into Emma's mind (which is how two telepaths would confront each other) somehow makes her a terrible person. I mean, I wanted to see Jean telekinetically bitchslap Emma a few times too. I think this is another "poor Emma" moment that Emma fans use to justify adultery. It doesn't work. The text of the book itself doesn't allow it too.

And if Scott sleeps with another woman who was all over him, he's a bastard. But if Jean tries to kiss (and maybe do other things) another man (whom refused), she's just doing it because Scott is being a bad husband and that's understandable, after all just because he was sharing his mind with one of the greatest psychos on the planet, he has no right to become alienated.
Jean never tried to sleep with Logan and you know it. She didn't pursue him in that one Morrison issue. They both kissed each other. The art didn't show her pushing herself on him. Then they stopped and he said it wouldn't work. Period. She wasn't seducing him or coming on to him. It was wrong. Yeah.

Let's look at from this angle: What if Logan seduced Jean after she had been Phoenix and they slept together and Scott found out and confronted Logan and blasted him with his optic blast. Then all the fans blamed Scott for attacking Logan, said "poor Logan, Scott's a jerk for attacking him," and "Jean is a victim for having been Phoenix." And then they killed off Scott and Jean and Logan lived happily ever after. That would be a similar story - but I don't see Scott fans thinking that sounds very good.

Charles RB

09-14-2006, 05:52 PM

They are both telepaths. Thats how they would deal with the situation. Having a heated discussion inside the mind.

Heated discussion is one thing - rummaging around in people's personal stuff uninvited, deliberately forcing people to remember past traumas and threatening to show them the viciously murdered corpses of people they knew is another.

I really can't see how Jean going straight into Emma's mind (which is how two telepaths would confront each other) somehow makes her a terrible person.

Saying "do what I tell you or I'll make you look at dead children", THAT makes her a horrible person.

I think this is another "poor Emma" moment that Emma fans use to justify adultery.

If we're defining adultery as having sexual intercourse here, then there wasn't any adultery. Scott and Emma didn't have sex.

What if Logan seduced Jean after she had been Phoenix and they slept together and Scott found out

See above. Scott and Emma didn't sleep together.

DemonJack

09-14-2006, 06:25 PM

Slung

09-14-2006, 07:48 PM

Heated discussion is one thing - rummaging around in people's personal stuff uninvited, deliberately forcing people to remember past traumas and threatening to show them the viciously murdered corpses of people they knew is another.
Emma needed a push. The woman has murdered how many people? You think after all the people the lady has callously killed - reliving some deaths would make her all giddy inside. It isn't like she is some nice, innocent person who has dealt with death upon death of friends and students. She is a woman who used to telepathically murder (and blow up and hire assassins) people just for looking at her funny or thinking something she didn't appreciate. Not a nice lady.

I think that if your spouse was seduced by some hussy who at one time helped drive you insane (and was partially responsible for you killing people after she drove you mental), you probably wouldn't be playing nice with the kiddie gloves either. She was looking for answers and Emma's memories were enfolding into Jean's mind - Jean wasn't taking her there, Emma was subconsciously driving the little head trip. Jean had no idea where they were.

If we're defining adultery as having sexual intercourse here, then there wasn't any adultery. Scott and Emma didn't have sex.
What happens on the astral plane is reality. People get hurt there and they get hurt physically as well. It was adultery. Or is this one of those "I didn't have sex with that woman" moments. We are defining adultery as sexually cheating on one's spouse. This was sexually cheating: all the physical benefits of sex, without the physical mess or dangers.

I think what Scott did was cheap and selfish, what Emma did was twisted and just to piss Jean off and gain a foothold in the X-Men (originally) and what Jean did was bullying but at least partially justified and completely understandable.

Omega Alpha

09-14-2006, 08:37 PM

Jean never tried to sleep with Logan and you know it. She didn't pursue him in that one Morrison issue. They both kissed each other. The art didn't show her pushing herself on him. Then they stopped and he said it wouldn't work. Period. She wasn't seducing him or coming on to him. It was wrong. Yeah.

Read the conversation prior to that. Jean tried to kiss Logan by their own will, and you know it. It may have ended there, in a kiss, it may have gone somewhere else, but, yes, she tried to kiss him, period.

Let's look at from this angle: What if Logan seduced Jean after she had been Phoenix and they slept together and Scott found out and confronted Logan and blasted him with his optic blast. Then all the fans blamed Scott for attacking Logan, said "poor Logan, Scott's a jerk for attacking him," and "Jean is a victim for having been Phoenix." And then they killed off Scott and Jean and Logan lived happily ever after. That would be a similar story - but I don't see Scott fans thinking that sounds very good.

If Scott, whom, despite everything Jean could have done, and most of the affair being hers and Logan's fault, was not very supportinve of his wife after she was possessed by Apocalipse and shared her mind with him for more than 6 months (and if Jean wasn't a telepath, who is used to hearing the thoughts of others in her heads, while Scott had psionic powers), mind-raped Logan, forcing him to bring out several memories which were blocked because they cause pain for him, and afterwards became definitively a cosmic entity which can destroy the whole universe, and died for the 548th time, only to reborn and then die again for the 549th, then i could say it's the same thing. Otherwise, it's not.

What happens on the astral plane is reality. People get hurt there and they get hurt physically as well. It was adultery. Or is this one of those "I didn't have sex with that woman" moments. We are defining adultery as sexually cheating on one's spouse. This was sexually cheating: all the physical benefits of sex, without the physical mess or dangers.

I think what Scott did was cheap and selfish, what Emma did was twisted and just to piss Jean off and gain a foothold in the X-Men (originally) and what Jean did was bullying but at least partially justified and completely understandable.

I agree about what you said about their affair, it was adultery as much as any other, but Emma did not do it to piss off Jean or to gain anything with the X-men, Morrison made it very clear that she was interested in sleep with Scott only, and no, what Jean did is not justified, there is no justification at all, as much as there may have reasons, but no justification for Scott having an affair with her.

Slung

09-15-2006, 12:40 AM

Read the conversation prior to that. Jean tried to kiss Logan by their own will, and you know it. It may have ended there, in a kiss, it may have gone somewhere else, but, yes, she tried to kiss him, period.

She said "my head is hollow and I feel really lonely, Logan. And you're my friend. And I just wish he would hold me like he used to. I wish it didn't matter. I feel like an idiot." That is what she said. She didn't say, "kiss me fool." She just told him how she felt. When they do kiss, Logan is dipping her a little and holding her - like he initiated. It wasn't going anywhere else. She was talking and hoping Cyclops would hold her. Logan happened to be the only one listening and took his chance. And then he knew it wouldn't work and backed off. Re-read the scene. It wasn't like some dirty, kinky affair set up by the White Queen - it was a moment of weakness that wouldn't ever going anywhere and both characters knew that.

If Scott, whom, despite everything Jean could have done, and most of the affair being hers and Logan's fault, was not very supportinve of his wife after she was possessed by Apocalipse and shared her mind with him for more than 6 months (and if Jean wasn't a telepath, who is used to hearing the thoughts of others in her heads, while Scott had psionic powers), mind-raped Logan, forcing him to bring out several memories which were blocked because they cause pain for him, and afterwards became definitively a cosmic entity which can destroy the whole universe, and died for the 548th time, only to reborn and then die again for the 549th, then i could say it's the same thing. Otherwise, it's not.

You're not even trying to look at the situation from another point of view. If the shoe was on the other foot - I'm guessing you'd still be backing Cyclops. I understand, you dislike Jean and thats fine.

It isn't about changing characters powers, personalities and death tally to fit a different scenario - its about looking at the same situation and reversing the roles and seeing if you would still feel the same way about who was the victim and whose side you would take.

If roles had been reversed, I would have taken Scott's side, the victim of an affair who in a moment of anger lashed out with his powers and attacked Wolverine. I think the anger and lashing out is understandable - whether its Jean or Scott. I don't think a spouse who has been cheated on is expected to be completely rational in a situation. Especially characters who are superpowered. Wolverine wasn't going to die. Neither was Frosty. Both would deserve a swift kick in the head for seducing a married person.

Also, who says Jean wasn't supportive of Scott after Apocalypse. She tried to talk with him and he shut her out. She was the only one who believed he was alive. She went to the ends of the earth to find him. She was the one who exorcised Apocalypse. The woman would sacrifice anything to save him. How can you say she wasn't supportive? Because Scott wouldn't sleep with her? Or because he wouldn't talk to her? Or is it because she wouldn't telepathically force him to share what he was feeling? She wasn't going to coddle Scott or be some kind of enabler. She was there for him and tried to talk with him - he shut her out, remember?

And then, what happens when she dies? Does he not rest until he brings her back? Does he go to the ends of the earth for her? No, he sleeps with the X-Men femme fatale. When his wife comes back to life dealing with a cosmic possession, does he try to rescue her or hope against hope that he can free her? No, he does his best to justify his relationship with Frost and strategizes how best to kill his wife. Yeah, I can see how Jean is a terrible person now.

I agree about what you said about their affair, it was adultery as much as any other, but Emma did not do it to piss off Jean or to gain anything with the X-men, Morrison made it very clear that she was interested in sleep with Scott only, and no, what Jean did is not justified, there is no justification at all, as much as there may have reasons, but no justification for Scott having an affair with her.
I don't think Emma was interested in sleeping with Scott until after she began the affair. I thought that was pretty clear. She accidently fell in love with him. That was the way it always came across to me. But of course, I could be wrong.

shaunyc56

09-15-2006, 09:54 AM

You know, it would be kind of fun if Jean came back and became Scott's crazy stalker. Now THAT would be a slightly different direction to take things :p

I would totally dig that, crazier pheonix.

shaunyc56

09-15-2006, 09:59 AM

No reedeming. Everybody screws up at some point. Simple as that. He's not effing perfect no matter how hard he tries. And after all the things he's had to put up with it would be unrealistic if he had never made a bad decision in his life. Plus, people change and grow for better or worse, they have their highs and lows. Like I say you can only deal with pressure of leading the X-men and all the other things he's gone through for so long before it gets to you and you end up slipping. IMO.

I agree w/ you man, but when it comes to St. Jean, who is hella boring and probably a very pedestrian lay by now, everybody assumes Scott should be perfect. The guy has his own stress, incredible pressure of running the school, and when the going gets tough, all the cooler than thou Xmen look to the XMAN to call the plays battle and strategy wise. The guy f'd up, only the perfect people get to judge him. ** Stares at line of perfect people that never forms**

Charles RB

09-15-2006, 11:09 AM

Emma needed a push. The woman has murdered how many people?

Which is irrelevant, as Jean wasn't threatening to show her the corpses of all her students because of that - she was doing it because she wanted to force Emma into telling her something. Which is being an arsehole.

She was looking for answers

Which she could have got from Scott. Who was standing right there.

What happens on the astral plane is reality.

All we saw was Scott having some sahred psychic fantasies, which looks more like the psychic equivalent of phone sex.

We are defining adultery as sexually cheating on one's spouse.

And when Jean looked in Scott's mind, she found out he hadn't, remember.

what Emma did was twisted and just to piss Jean off and gain a foothold in the X-Men (originally)

She already had a foothold in the X-Men - she'd been working with them via Generation X for months and then joined the primary X-Men team and Xavier teaching staff post-Genosha. How much more of a foothold did she need when she was right there in the mansion?

what Jean did was bullying but at least partially justified

There is nothing justifiable about threatening to show a teacher dead children because she had an affair.

Omega Alpha

09-15-2006, 12:18 PM

She said "my head is hollow and I feel really lonely, Logan. And you're my friend. And I just wish he would hold me like he used to. I wish it didn't matter. I feel like an idiot." That is what she said. She didn't say, "kiss me fool." She just told him how she felt. When they do kiss, Logan is dipping her a little and holding her - like he initiated. It wasn't going anywhere else. She was talking and hoping Cyclops would hold her. Logan happened to be the only one listening and took his chance. And then he knew it wouldn't work and backed off. Re-read the scene. It wasn't like some dirty, kinky affair set up by the White Queen - it was a moment of weakness that wouldn't ever going anywhere and both characters knew that.

Issue summary of UncannyX-men.Net: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=465

In the woods near the Xavier Institute, Jean seeks Wolverine while he meditates. Wolverine tells her he needs to meditate after the damage he suffered from battling with Cassandra Nova, despite his healing factor. Wolverine spots a spaceship near the mansion, which Jean says belongs to Empress Lilandra. She says Professor Xavier plans on taking a vacation with Lilandra through the Shi’Ar Galaxy. Jean also tells Wolverine that she’s happy her telekinetic abilities have returned, but she feels lonely with the distance Cyclops puts in their marriage. She kisses Wolverine in the heat of passion, but he pushes her away, saying a relationship between them would never work.

You're not even trying to look at the situation from another point of view. If the shoe was on the other foot - I'm guessing you'd still be backing Cyclops. I understand, you dislike Jean and thats fine.

It isn't about changing characters powers, personalities and death tally to fit a different scenario - its about looking at the same situation and reversing the roles and seeing if you would still feel the same way about who was the victim and whose side you would take.

If roles had been reversed, I would have taken Scott's side, the victim of an affair who in a moment of anger lashed out with his powers and attacked Wolverine. I think the anger and lashing out is understandable - whether its Jean or Scott. I don't think a spouse who has been cheated on is expected to be completely rational in a situation. Especially characters who are superpowered. Wolverine wasn't going to die. Neither was Frosty. Both would deserve a swift kick in the head for seducing a married person.

You were trying to say that Scott and Emma was an affair that begun from nowhere, that Jean had nothing to do with their marital problems, and they were all Scott's fault, and to compare an optic blast onto someone with adamantium bones and a healing factor with forcing a woman relive her past for no reason but vengeance and threat to make this woman, a teacher, see her students die again, one by one, and talks like it's a normal thing.

I'm not saying that the affair isn't Scott and Emma's fault only, but the end of their relationship was not because Jean was a saint, but Scott behave as a bastard.

Also, who says Jean wasn't supportive of Scott after Apocalypse. She tried to talk with him and he shut her out. She was the only one who believed he was alive. She went to the ends of the earth to find him. She was the one who exorcised Apocalypse. The woman would sacrifice anything to save him. How can you say she wasn't supportive? Because Scott wouldn't sleep with her? Or because he wouldn't talk to her? Or is it because she wouldn't telepathically force him to share what he was feeling? She wasn't going to coddle Scott or be some kind of enabler. She was there for him and tried to talk with him - he shut her out, remember?

I'm not talking about what did she do to find him, i'm talking about what happen afterwards. He asked her repeatedly to just read his mind, like she did when they had the rapport, because he didn't wanted to talk about it, since it was unconfortable and painful for him. Sure the most healthy thing would be to express his feelings, but after all he had been through, she could just give him a brake, didn't she? Jean should know that it's not so easy for people who are not telepaths to hear the thoughts of someone else in their head, specially if it is a psychopath who is sharing your mind with you. Besides, she was most worried either with the school or with becoming a goddess.

And then, what happens when she dies? Does he not rest until he brings her back? Does he go to the ends of the earth for her? No, he sleeps with the X-Men femme fatale. When his wife comes back to life dealing with a cosmic possession, does he try to rescue her or hope against hope that he can free her? No, he does his best to justify his relationship with Frost and strategizes how best to kill his wife. Yeah, I can see how Jean is a terrible person now.

Did your read Here Comes Tomorrow? Because Jean's fans often seem to forget that, if it wasn't for her, Scott would not be with Emma, would not be with the X-men, he would have been so guilty that he would not even have will to live anymore, and Jean nudged him to be with Emma, to live.

And WTF do you do when Dark Phoenix or Galactus are around? Try to reason with them? There was a reason why the Jean-dupe commited suicide, you know?:rolleyes:

I don't think Emma was interested in sleeping with Scott until after she began the affair. I thought that was pretty clear. She accidently fell in love with him. That was the way it always came across to me. But of course, I could be wrong.

The 2001 annual shows as clear as possible that Emma wanted to sleep with Scott. I mean, she says that, if he keeps his celibacy, his poor wife's loss will be felt by all the women in the world, and at the annual she walks into his room at the middle of the night with a bottle of wine, doesn't get much more clear than that. And she was already a X-man, and had teached the Gen X. for sometime, she didn't need a foothold.

Scavenger

09-15-2006, 12:51 PM

About as well as Sinister's other plots.

Like staking out Havok and Polaris for the same reason. How many kids did they produce? And then giving up on the whole thing once PAD left X-Factor.

See, it's Sinister that needs Redeeming!

He shows up as the mysterious leader of the Maruaders. Has them wipe out the Morlocks for some unrevealed plan...that then never gets revealed.

It was awesome. Like he had this plan, told them, go kill all those sewer guys, and then while they when they got back, he realised, "Oh, I forgot to carry the two....guess I didn't need the Morlocks dead. Oh well." Throws away the plans and goes and does something else.

Then, years later, they just say he wanted to clean them up from the gene pool or something. ho hum.

From being super evil, to being Bill Murray in Caddyshack.

Charles RB

09-15-2006, 03:35 PM

See, it's Sinister that needs Redeeming!

Well, the first thing he needs to do is get an extreme makeover and change his name. He could call himself Fred and it'd be more menacing than Mister Sinister.

Slung

09-15-2006, 05:55 PM

Issue summary of UncannyX-men.Net: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=465

In the woods near the Xavier Institute, Jean seeks Wolverine while he meditates. Wolverine tells her he needs to meditate after the damage he suffered from battling with Cassandra Nova, despite his healing factor. Wolverine spots a spaceship near the mansion, which Jean says belongs to Empress Lilandra. She says Professor Xavier plans on taking a vacation with Lilandra through the Shi’Ar Galaxy. Jean also tells Wolverine that she’s happy her telekinetic abilities have returned, but she feels lonely with the distance Cyclops puts in their marriage. She kisses Wolverine in the heat of passion, but he pushes her away, saying a relationship between them would never work.
Okay, you base your opinion of the events off of an issue summary - I looked at the art and read it. It didn't happen like that. Uncannyxmen.net is a really great resource for all things X-Men, but I've always felt there were certain stories and characters they favor over others. Jean Grey is not a favorite at the site. And thats fine. Many of the New X-Men summaries are not sympathetic to Jean, while they are very sympathetic to Emma. I choose to read the stories and make my own judgements and not go by what a partisan fansite says. It isn't a big deal.

In the comic book itself, Logan is dipping Jean back and leaning into the kiss. Jean has one hand on Logan's neck and the other dropped to her side. Both of Logan's hands are pulling her into his body. This is not "Jean in a heat of passion." It's "Logan in a heat of passion." Yeah, then they break it off and Logan walks away.

You were trying to say that Scott and Emma was an affair that begun from nowhere, that Jean had nothing to do with their marital problems, and they were all Scott's fault, and to compare an optic blast onto someone with adamantium bones and a healing factor with forcing a woman relive her past for no reason but vengeance and threat to make this woman, a teacher, see her students die again, one by one, and talks like it's a normal thing.
I didn't say the affair began from no where. It began with Scott pulling away from Jean and then, instead of talking with his wife, going to Emma for "sex therapy." I could see how that could be Jean's fault. Or not.

As I said earlier, for someone who was once in the habit of coldly murdering her colleages and psychically torturing her students - seeing her dead proteges seems like just another day at the office for Ms. Frost. With that said, I agree, it was especially cruel of Jean, yes. Mean, bullying - whatever, not really in character at all. I don't even think this would be a discussion if it had been Emma Frost who did this to Jean (for instance, she did it to Scott a few issues ago, and no one is batting an eye). But it wasn't without reason - Jean wanted answers for what happened and, up until this psychic confrontation, Emma was all smirks, sneers and taunts. Shoving the affair in Jean's face with as much venom as she could muster. And Jean wasn't forcing most of the events that happened - Emma's thoughts were enfolding on Jean's mind - they were playing out from Emma.

I'm not saying that the affair isn't Scott and Emma's fault only, but the end of their relationship was not because Jean was a saint, but Scott behave as a bastard.
With "the death of 5 billion innocent asparagus people" being thrown out so often, I doubt anyone thinks of Jean as being a saint. She was, however, the victim in this particular situation. Her and Logan kissing was wrong. Not-so-saintly. Scott having an affair - not her fault. Her getting mad and smashing through Emma's brain - not-so-nice but not unexpected or unjustified (that red-headed temper of hers).

I'm not talking about what did she do to find him, i'm talking about what happen afterwards. He asked her repeatedly to just read his mind, like she did when they had the rapport, because he didn't wanted to talk about it, since it was unconfortable and painful for him.
You are inferring that Scott didn't want to talk about it because it was uncomfortable and painful. Maybe he didn't want to talk about it because his dark urges made him despise the goodness of his wife. Maybe Jean didn't want to read his mind because it would have hurt her to do so - or that the darkness could have overcome her. Who knows. What we know is that Scott went to someone else to deal with his problems. Not Jean. Not Xavier. Not his dearest friends. Maybe he felt comfortable with someone who was more or less a stranger. Who knows.

Sure the most healthy thing would be to express his feelings, but after all he had been through, she could just give him a brake, didn't she? Jean should know that it's not so easy for people who are not telepaths to hear the thoughts of someone else in their head, specially if it is a psychopath who is sharing your mind with you. Besides, she was most worried either with the school or with becoming a goddess.
I don't think she was really paying that much attention to being a "goddess." She was trying to put the school as a high priority. And of course, saving Xavier, stopping monstrous killing machines, protecting her students lives and saving her friends. Those don't seem like bad priorities to me. I wish she had pushed harder for her marriage, yeah. I guess she could have done what Cyclops did and made a different set of priorities: psychically cheat on spouse and attempt to cover it up. Runaway when things get difficult and shut out closest friends and confidantes.

Did your read Here Comes Tomorrow? Because Jean's fans often seem to forget that, if it wasn't for her, Scott would not be with Emma, would not be with the X-men, he would have been so guilty that he would not even have will to live anymore, and Jean nudged him to be with Emma, to live.
Yes, it is a convenient storytelling device to help justify Scott and Emma's pairing.

And WTF do you do when Dark Phoenix or Galactus are around? Try to reason with them?
Or you try something inventive and unique like when Jean saved Cyclops from Apocalypse...or you could just pretend like you could kill her. Cause that would work.

The 2001 annual shows as clear as possible that Emma wanted to sleep with Scott. I mean, she says that, if he keeps his celibacy, his poor wife's loss will be felt by all the women in the world, and at the annual she walks into his room at the middle of the night with a bottle of wine, doesn't get much more clear than that. And she was already a X-man, and had teached the Gen X. for sometime, she didn't need a foothold.
I never said she didn't want to sleep with him. She just wasn't doing it because she loved him or was attracted to him. She was doing it for selfish and possibly underhanded reasons. It seems Jean thinks (and I agree) that to some extent it was to purposely hurt her. In accordance with recent events in Astonishing and some of Morrisson's hints as well, she was trying to sleep with him to climb the ladder to the top of the world of the X - which makes her in charge of the most powerful group (politcally and physically) of mutants on the planet. She's gained more political and world power with this tactical move then she ever had as White Queen of the Hellfire Club.

This is about Scott though and redeeming him. With all the blame you've laid at Jean's feet though, maybe the question should be: How could someone redeem Jean?

Omega Alpha

09-15-2006, 09:16 PM

Okay, you base your opinion of the events off of an issue summary - I looked at the art and read it. It didn't happen like that. Uncannyxmen.net is a really great resource for all things X-Men, but I've always felt there were certain stories and characters they favor over others. Jean Grey is not a favorite at the site. And thats fine. Many of the New X-Men summaries are not sympathetic to Jean, while they are very sympathetic to Emma. I choose to read the stories and make my own judgements and not go by what a partisan fansite says. It isn't a big deal.

You're making excuses. I read the issue, and like pretty much anyone except you, i thought that. I only used the summary to show that i wasn't the only one.

I didn't say the affair began from no where. It began with Scott pulling away from Jean and then, instead of talking with his wife, going to Emma for "sex therapy." I could see how that could be Jean's fault. Or not.

Again, making Jean a saint...

As I said earlier, for someone who was once in the habit of coldly murdering her colleages and psychically torturing her students - seeing her dead proteges seems like just another day at the office for Ms. Frost. With that said, I agree, it was especially cruel of Jean, yes. Mean, bullying - whatever, not really in character at all. I don't even think this would be a discussion if it had been Emma Frost who did this to Jean (for instance, she did it to Scott a few issues ago, and no one is batting an eye). But it wasn't without reason - Jean wanted answers for what happened and, up until this psychic confrontation, Emma was all smirks, sneers and taunts. Shoving the affair in Jean's face with as much venom as she could muster. And Jean wasn't forcing most of the events that happened - Emma's thoughts were enfolding on Jean's mind - they were playing out from Emma.

Excuses again..

With "the death of 5 billion innocent asparagus people" being thrown out so often, I doubt anyone thinks of Jean as being a saint. She was, however, the victim in this particular situation. Her and Logan kissing was wrong. Not-so-saintly. Scott having an affair - not her fault. Her getting mad and smashing through Emma's brain - not-so-nice but not unexpected or unjustified (that red-headed temper of hers).

Killing people because a cosmic entity possessed you and that and outside manipulation made you crazy is not really a "flaw". If you're not in control of your own actions, you can't be blamed.

You are inferring that Scott didn't want to talk about it because it was uncomfortable and painful. Maybe he didn't want to talk about it because his dark urges made him despise the goodness of his wife. Maybe Jean didn't want to read his mind because it would have hurt her to do so - or that the darkness could have overcome her. Who knows. What we know is that Scott went to someone else to deal with his problems. Not Jean. Not Xavier. Not his dearest friends. Maybe he felt comfortable with someone who was more or less a stranger. Who knows.

Considering whom was the person which had the problems, if someone needed to do what the other asked was Jean. But i agree with your post actually.

I don't think she was really paying that much attention to being a "goddess." She was trying to put the school as a high priority. And of course, saving Xavier, stopping monstrous killing machines, protecting her students lives and saving her friends. Those don't seem like bad priorities to me. I wish she had pushed harder for her marriage, yeah. I guess she could have done what Cyclops did and made a different set of priorities: psychically cheat on spouse and attempt to cover it up. Runaway when things get difficult and shut out closest friends and confidantes.

I'm not saying that Cyclops did the right things, because he didn't at all, but Jean has a huge share of the blame for the end of the marriage too.

Yes, it is a convenient storytelling device to help justify Scott and Emma's pairing.

Of course that a Jean fan will only see it that way...

Or you try something inventive and unique like when Jean saved Cyclops from Apocalypse...or you could just pretend like you could kill her. Cause that would work.

Scott was sharing his mind with another mutant, he had no powers, he wasn't so much of a threat to anyone. Not even Galactus, the Living Tribunal, etc, could separate Jean and the Phoenix.

I never said she didn't want to sleep with him. She just wasn't doing it because she loved him or was attracted to him. She was doing it for selfish and possibly underhanded reasons. It seems Jean thinks (and I agree) that to some extent it was to purposely hurt her. In accordance with recent events in Astonishing and some of Morrisson's hints as well, she was trying to sleep with him to climb the ladder to the top of the world of the X - which makes her in charge of the most powerful group (politcally and physically) of mutants on the planet. She's gained more political and world power with this tactical move then she ever had as White Queen of the Hellfire Club.

Emma didn't even care about Jean before the affair, she had no reason to do so. And she didn't know that Xavier was leaving the Institute and obviously couldn't know that Jean was dying, and so the affair wouldn't bring any benefits for her. Actually, it would most likely even cause more problems, since she would not look well in the eyes of both Jean and Xavier. And she was not pushing for Scott to leave Jean for her, at least not before Jean found out, so even the advantage of being the leader's girl wouldn't be there.

This is about Scott though and redeeming him. With all the blame you've laid at Jean's feet though, maybe the question should be: How could someone redeem Jean?

Keep her dead.:D

But i don't think she needs redemption. Neither her nor Scott.

curefreak

09-15-2006, 10:50 PM

for all scotts flaws i still find him a sympathetic character somehow.

Omega Alpha

09-15-2006, 11:54 PM

for all scotts flaws i still find him a sympathetic character somehow.

If he didn't have flaws, i wouldn't find him sympathetic.

Slung

09-16-2006, 01:35 AM

You're making excuses. I read the issue, and like pretty much anyone except you, i thought that. I only used the summary to show that i wasn't the only one.
Go back now and look at the issue - seriously. Jean isn't coming on to Logan at all. He is slightly leaning her back and pulling her in. This isn't excuses - its just reading the comic book as presented.

http://www.parquegotico.com/images/notas/new_xmen/New-Xmen-4.jpg

Excuses again..
It's easier to debate someone when you just discount every point they make with a wave of a hand.

Of course that a Jean fan will only see it that way...
And a Scott/Emma fan will see it that way. Obviously, this isn't going anywhere.

I think I'm starting to use too much of my time with this debate. My statements are starting to be dismissed with a brush off and I'm pretty much to that point of doling out blanket "you're wrongs" too. So, I think I'm going to wrap up with a few closing remarks and call it quits. Thanks for stimulating ideas - I had fun :).

Closing remarks: I know that Jean was partially to blame for the distance in the marriage - but she should not be blamed for the sins of her husband and his mistress. Adultery cannot be justified because a spouse is being distant. A husband isn't given a green light to cheat because there is no physical intimacy being shared. Regardless of how a fansite portrays the Logan and Jean kiss, to me it is obvious from the picture that Logan initiated and then also initiated breaking it off. Jean wasn't the one who stopped it - but she wasn't the one who started it either (which fits more with her character). As for the highly debated "mind rape", I think Jean was being a bully and was slightly irrational in her actions, but was not totally offbase with her reaction: she was a victim of adultery and humiliation. No one is perfect - but in the case of this particular situation, Jean ended up being the victim. Fortunately for both Scott and Emma's characters and fans, Jean died leaving the morality of the situation much more grey. Even more fortunate was that Jean was able to give them her blessing from beyond the grave.

Defense rests.