Something I thought about Nightcrawler ?

[Leogam]

He was originally concieved as a demon by dave cockram for DC's Legionaires. But since that didnt work out and he ended up being a mutant (which I think is weird for a mutant to end up looking what we percieve to be a demon).So I thought it would be better if we got rid of the arrow head on his prehensile tail & the fangs. The only physical traits that I see serve a purpose are his pointed ears which give him enhanced hearing, his hands & feet let him stick to surfaces, his yellow eyes give him night vision, & his Dark blue skin lets him blend in dark shadows

[Beast]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.

[bounusball75]

good ole chuck austen....that was the closest thing he did to doing something right for x men. Yea changing one of the most popular charecters in x men history would be a very big mistake. We really don't like change.

[Cowlander]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.
This is the truth, execution is always the key....

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I would have loved to see the story Claremont was going to do when he was going to have Mystique be Nightcrawler's father and Destiny be his mother.

Perhaps now that Claremont is taking over Exiles we'll see a reality where Nightcrawler's parents were such.

[Doom Hammer]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.

Oh come on!

As a comic book community, we need to work together in ignoring Chuck Austen's stupid, stupid stupidity.

[Foley]

I would have loved to see the story Claremont was going to do when he was going to have Mystique be Nightcrawler's father and Destiny be his mother.

Perhaps now that Claremont is taking over Exiles we'll see a reality where Nightcrawler's parents were such.

That is disturbing on so many levels...

[Beast]

That is disturbing on so many levels...
How is it disturbing? Mystique shifts into a man, makes love to Destiny, and fathers a child. Nothing wrong with that in any way shape or form. :)

[Stephane Garrelie]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/PIRATE.jpg Yo ho ho :evilsmile :) w'ell I th'ink that zee Mist'ik as fath'r and Dest'ny as M'ther culd bee a wery guud idea.
If done by Claremont of course :) .

[Xany Kaos]

Is it sad that I find Mystique being Nightcrawler's father less disturbing than what Austen gave us?

Fangs serve a purpose in a fight and in survival (and I'll bet he never needs a can opener neither!). Granted, Kurt usually doesn't get that close, but if he ever did, he'd have at least one more weapon. And the spade-tip on his tail...I dunno, maybe it gives him a better grip on things?

[DDM]

I would have loved to see the story Claremont was going to do when he was going to have Mystique be Nightcrawler's father and Destiny be his mother.

Perhaps now that Claremont is taking over Exiles we'll see a reality where Nightcrawler's parents were such.

Ditto.

(character limit)

[david r]

I would have loved to see the story Claremont was going to do when he was going to have Mystique be Nightcrawler's father and Destiny be his mother.


And sadly, if Claremont had remained on the core books beyond 2000, we would have seen this Mystique/Nightcrawler connection finally see print. CC hinted that it "was in the works" during interviews in 2000.

[Mikl C]

I do NOT enjoy the destiny/mystique idea in the slightest. God leave his origin alone. What's wrong with "some nobleman"?

[Stephane Garrelie]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/PIRATE.jpg I'm not a fan of the 2000 revolution run (excepted for the crimson pirates arc and the "Charles/Moira youth love-story" issue after her death). For me (if you don't count "true friends") the real return of Claremont to the X-Men was X-Treme X-Men 1.
And there yes I would have loved to see more of the Raven/Destiny stuff, and the fact that they are the biological parents of Kurt reaveled:) That would have been cool.:)

[Alpha to Omega]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.

Except for the fact that that piece of nonsense doesn't fit into the Marvel Cosmology where there are actual demons and angels who have been messing with mankind since the stone-age.

[Zombienorthstar]

why cant he just be a mutant...its so much easier....

[Stephane Garrelie]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/PIRATE.jpg The sooner the Chuck Austen demonic origin will be retconned out of existence, the better it will be.:cool:

[DDM]

why cant he just be a mutant...its so much easier....

Nightcrawler is a mutant. But his original origin is so much better than either the Scott Lobdell origin which reveals Mystique is Kurt's mother & the Chuck Austen abomination story.

[Darkwave]

How is it disturbing? Mystique shifts into a man, makes love to Destiny, and fathers a child. Nothing wrong with that in any way shape or form. :)


I might be taking this too seriously, but I don't think it could happen. The child of Destiny and Mystique would have to be female.

Remember that women have two X chromosomes, while men have an X and a Y.

Mystique is originally female, and she doesn't alter her DNA when she shifts. Thus, she has two X chromosomes, whatever form she takes.

Destiny also had two X chromosomes.

Thus, each would by necessity contribute an X chromosome to the child, and so the child would have to have two XX chromosomes, and be female.

So basically, you'd need to do a REALLY BIG Nightcrawler ret-con to pull the Destiny-Mystique thing off... ;)

[Haunt]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.

so now you're backing an Austen story?

[Beast]

so now you're backing an Austen story?
No, but it's currently in continuity so best to accept it and move on. :)

[Beast]

I might be taking this too seriously, but I don't think it could happen. The child of Destiny and Mystique would have to be female.

Remember that women have two X chromosomes, while men have an X and a Y.

Mystique is originally female, and she doesn't alter her DNA when she shifts. Thus, she has two X chromosomes, whatever form she takes.

Destiny also had two X chromosomes.

Thus, each would by necessity contribute an X chromosome to the child, and so the child would have to have two XX chromosomes, and be female.

So basically, you'd need to do a REALLY BIG Nightcrawler ret-con to pull the Destiny-Mystique thing off... ;)
You're overthinking things, especially when you're forgetting we're talking about comic books with mutants, metahumans, magic, and monsters. Besides, all infants are originally female in the womb. They become male when a certain chemical process activates that makes them male. So it's not illogical. Especially when you consider that there are frogs that shift their sex in the real world. ;)

[Faded]

I don't really like the Chuck Austen theory. For me, a reason for Nightcrawler looking the way he does doesn't matter to me.

It doesn't have to be Claremont, but I'd be interested in reading about Mystique 'fathering' Kurt. :cool:

[Sentinel K]

Besides, all infants are originally female in the womb. They become male when a certain chemical process activates that makes them male. So it's not illogical. Especially when you consider that there are frogs that shift their sex in the real world. ;)

Bollocks.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking about Alligators or something.

The sex of a human foetus is determined straight away.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

For men, you know that line that goes down the bottom of your penis and down your scrotum? Thats where your fetal vagina closed up when your genes told ur body to make a penis instead of a clitoris.

So both of you are right. Your DNA always has already determined ur sex, but ur physically female for quite a while in the womb.

[fishtaco]

Oh come on!

As a comic book community, we need to work together in ignoring Chuck Austen's stupid, stupid stupidity.You said it for me.

Kurt looks like who he looks like, and it looks cool, so what's the point of ret-conning anything? Ret-cons create needless controversy, convolution, and a mess of a story that is often in the realm of heresy.

[Rachel Grey]

And the spade-tip on his tail...I dunno, maybe it gives him a better grip on things?


For her pleasure.

[Foley]

wow...i take it you're a fan of a rachel/nightcrawler hook up then. BTW, i can't wait to see Nocturne's reaction when she finds out her mom in this reality went batshit crazy :)

[Cowlander]

You're overthinking things, especially when you're forgetting we're talking about comic books with mutants, metahumans, magic, and monsters. Besides, all infants are originally female in the womb. They become male when a certain chemical process activates that makes them male. So it's not illogical. Especially when you consider that there are frogs that shift their sex in the real world. ;)
Actually all fetuses are whatever chosen sex from fertilization. WE simply cant tell til that hormone you mentioned is released and the boy bits start growing.

Remember Man XY Woman XX, for your scenario to work a woman would have to fertilize the egg herself get it growing in the womb, THEN the man comes along to simply add the boy bits.

On topic...sorta. Wondering how the Mys/Des thing would work biologically IS over thinking it since its a comic. I think the ideas stupid, but comic wise its definitely possible. If CC wasnt so seemingly profem/antimen in some of his writing this would definitely come off better. But with his track record it sorta seems like the ultimate triumph for him, conception without a man. Now the GREAT GODDESS WOMEN is truly shown as the greatest being in all of creation.

Seems wierd, its like imagine the reaction if Chuck Austen was writing Lost Girls instead of Moore? Because of his record you cant help but look for a less "on the side of the angels" interpretation to his work.

[widdershins]

For all we know,Mystique may have multiple (xxy) or different (ww,wz) sexual chromosomes as part of her mutation.In some animal races the male has two equal chromosomes while the female has different ones.
The most obvious answer,however,is that Mystique was a male at birth.She fell in love with Destiny as a confused changeling,had a child,and then opted for a definitive "sex change".It is an obvious parallel to the experience of many transsexuals.

[Jack]

Chuck Austen's retcon is actually much, much closer to Cockrum's original origin for Nightcrawler.

See, he was supposed to be an alien member of the Legion of Super-Heroes. His race were going to be aliens who inspired the legends of demons. And guess what - there are genuine demons and angels in the DCU too.

So, before you start bashing Austen for that, remember that you're also bashing the guy who created Nightcrawler.

[fishtaco]

No, but it's currently in continuity so best to accept it and move on. :)No, it's not that easy. No reason to accept it. It's only current continuity if you (the individual reader) choose to make it so.

[Zombienorthstar]

No, it's not that easy. No reason to accept it. It's only current continuity if you (the individual reader) choose to make it so.


Well yeah if you dont mind living in denial land. Its in continuity if Marvel (the publisher) chooses to publish it.

Can we campaign for them to change it? Hell yeah.

Until they change it is it changed? No.

[Beast]

No, it's not that easy. No reason to accept it. It's only current continuity if you (the individual reader) choose to make it so.
You like in a rich fantasy land. And De Nile isn't just a river in Egypt. ;)

[jarrod]

Yikes, I've always figured it was just a matter of time until someone retconned out the Draco as being Belasco or Margali or someone pulling one over on Kurt? Mystique confirming an imposter to be involved at least lends some credence to that idea... not that she's the most trust worthy source herself, but c'mon... what was even remotely sensical about the Draco?

[Mariah]

Yikes, I've always figured it was just a matter of time until someone retconned out the Draco as being Belasco or Margali or someone pulling one over on Kurt? Mystique confirming an imposter to be involved at least lends some credence to that idea... not that she's the most trust worthy source herself, but c'mon... what was even remotely sensical about the Draco?
Well, there was the...no, that doesn't work. Oh, wait, there was...no, crap. Um, it had crappy artwork? That's sensical.

[Beast]

Yikes, I've always figured it was just a matter of time until someone retconned out the Draco as being Belasco or Margali or someone pulling one over on Kurt? Mystique confirming an imposter to be involved at least lends some credence to that idea... not that she's the most trust worthy source herself, but c'mon... what was even remotely sensical about the Draco?
We're hoping that eventually it's retconned, but as long as it's never discussed again the easiest way is just to accept it and ignore it. You'll be a lot happier and not have to worry about the horrid story. :)

[fishtaco]

Well yeah if you dont mind living in denial land. Its in continuity if Marvel (the publisher) chooses to publish it.

Can we campaign for them to change it? Hell yeah.

Until they change it is it changed? No.It's a fictional world that can be interpreted any way the reader chooses to. People who have seen the movie Wizard of Oz can choose to believe that Dorothy's adventure really happened, or if it was just a dream. No one can dictate it either way. There's no wrong answer or solution. A lot of Origin fans claim that Dog is Sabretooth, even though nothing has been published by Marvel to verify this. So what? Is it denial? Sure. But if denial is what it takes to keep the books pure, then so be it. The choice is yours...and mine.

So can someone provide some more information about Cockrum's original pitch for Nightcrawler at DC? I'd like to write it down in my journal/collection of behind-the-scenes/original work and intentions, and the like. All I can say so far is that the editor who nixed the character made a big mistake. But things like that happen all the time. heh.

[Zombienorthstar]

. A lot of Origin fans claim that Dog is Sabretooth, even though nothing has been published by Marvel to verify this. So what? Is it denial? Sure. .

.


No its speculation...its not denying that something that obviously exsists...doesnt exsist.

[Dizzy D]

It's a fictional world that can be interpreted any way the reader chooses to. People who have seen the movie Wizard of Oz can choose to believe that Dorothy's adventure really happened, or if it was just a dream. No one can dictate it either way. There's no wrong answer or solution. A lot of Origin fans claim that Dog is Sabretooth, even though nothing has been published by Marvel to verify this. So what? Is it denial? Sure. But if denial is what it takes to keep the books pure, then so be it. The choice is yours...and mine.

So can someone provide some more information about Cockrum's original pitch for Nightcrawler at DC? I'd like to write it down in my journal/collection of behind-the-scenes/original work and intentions, and the like. All I can say so far is that the editor who nixed the character made a big mistake. But things like that happen all the time. heh.

I only know Cockrum's original plans pre-Legion of Superheroes: Nightcrawler was supposed to be a demon trapped on Earth and was the partner of a human hero who learned him about humanity. I don't the Legion-pitch had too much background yet, as he was rejected in the very early stages and Cockrum was showing DC several characters for Legion at that time.

[Beast]

It's a fictional world that can be interpreted any way the reader chooses to. People who have seen the movie Wizard of Oz can choose to believe that Dorothy's adventure really happened, or if it was just a dream. No one can dictate it either way. There's no wrong answer or solution. A lot of Origin fans claim that Dog is Sabretooth, even though nothing has been published by Marvel to verify this. So what? Is it denial? Sure. But if denial is what it takes to keep the books pure, then so be it. The choice is yours...and mine.
Your argument is flawed, because 'Wizard of Oz' was meant to be ambigious whether it happened or if it was all in her head. That's how the storyline was designed to play out, to leave it ambigious and make you make up your own mind. However, that's not how comics work... there's no ambiguity to the points you're arguing. They have happened, no matter whether you personally choose to try to ignore them or not. I don't like Beast as a feline, but I can't choose to ignore that it happened, because it's clear in the comics that it has happened. Do you see where your arguments are incredibly non-sensical and flawed?

[Beast]

As for the LoSH Nightcrawler, there's a piece of art in the back of the X-Men Omnibus that shows Nightcrawler with Legion of Superheroes from the initial pitch. :)

[Nightdreamer]

You are of course aware that Dave Cockrum had thought of making Nightmare Kurt's father...much better than the Draco arc...which was bleah! I wrote a story with Dave Cockrum's permission, since it was his idea, introducing Nightmare as Nightcrawler's father. I had an inspiration to check the Germanic origins of the word nightmare...and it is albtraum...which means elfdream. You are, of course aware how Kurt is constantly referred to as the fuzzy elf? Germanic lore also contains the idea of changelings in reference to elf lore, and Kurt was referred to as a changeling several times in early X-Men issues. I was completely surprised at how well it worked...and you know how Mystique tossed the infant Nightcrawler into the water...that is what you do to changelings, you know. Mystique's mutant/human DNA would be there and Nightmare's fsacinating ability to cross dimensions would account for Kurt's teleporting ability.

As for ever changing Kurt...NEIN! Keep him just the way he is...he's fine by me!

[Callisto]

Why change him now? He's been a popular character for over 30 years. Sure he looks like a demon, but they already explained why he looks like the classical interpretation of demons. Because he's decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical demons. Same as Angel is decendant of a race of mutants who were the inspiration for the biblical angels. Sure it was a crappy Chuck Austen story, but it makes sense. If only the writer would have done a better job with the concept.


oh god............

[Callisto]

And sadly, if Claremont had remained on the core books beyond 2000, we would have seen this Mystique/Nightcrawler connection finally see print. CC hinted that it "was in the works" during interviews in 2000.


what a shame.

[Beast]

oh god............
Hey, I didn't say it was a good story. But it's in canon for now until someone retcons it.

[Callisto]

On topic...sorta. Wondering how the Mys/Des thing would work biologically IS over thinking it since its a comic. I think the ideas stupid, but comic wise its definitely possible. If CC wasnt so seemingly profem/antimen in some of his writing this would definitely come off better. But with his track record it sorta seems like the ultimate triumph for him, conception without a man. Now the GREAT GODDESS WOMEN is truly shown as the greatest being in all of creation.

why would you think cc is antimen?

[Cowlander]

why would you think cc is antimen?
I dont think antimen is a good word for it, tho I cant come up with something more appropriate.

But basically with CC's constant downplaying of his male cast and his "chosen" females constant daring the impossible and accomplshing the unimaginable. It would seem to me to be another example of "oh look at the wondrous things women are capable of". I dont see anything wrong with it, except in CC's case it sorta seems like a subconcious reverse sexism.

Portrayals of women in earlier comic eras isnt the most praiseworthy thing. But it seems like hes trying so hard to not do that, he ends up doin it instead to the men. Except for Logan which someone better than me could make an argument that Logans just a "Gary Stu" for CC. Where all the usually female new and troubled chars go to for support.

Him making NC's parents Mys/Des wouldnt be original or thought provoking IMHO because hes shown a pattern of that type of downplaying men. I dont think its concious and I definitely dont thinks a intentially negative. I just think its there. Like his use of mind control, BDSM, team mate vs teammate etc etc.

Did that make sense?

[Stephane Garrelie]

You are of course aware that Dave Cockrum had thought of making Nightmare Kurt's father...much better than the Draco arc...which was bleah! I wrote a story with Dave Cockrum's permission, since it was his idea, introducing Nightmare as Nightcrawler's father. I had an inspiration to check the Germanic origins of the word nightmare...and it is albtraum...which means elfdream. You are, of course aware how Kurt is constantly referred to as the fuzzy elf? Germanic lore also contains the idea of changelings in reference to elf lore, and Kurt was referred to as a changeling several times in early X-Men issues. I was completely surprised at how well it worked...and you know how Mystique tossed the infant Nightcrawler into the water...that is what you do to changelings, you know. Mystique's mutant/human DNA would be there and Nightmare's fsacinating ability to cross dimensions would account for Kurt's teleporting ability.

As for ever changing Kurt...NEIN! Keep him just the way he is...he's fine by me!
Welcome on the CBR boards ;) :)
Yes, the Cockrum origin was ok, cause Nightmare isn't the Devil or a mutantwholooksevilandhaveinpsiredthebiblicaldevil. Nightmare is a demon, but he is at least original. And the nightmarish look of kurt perfecty fit with what nightmare is, with anything nightmarish. The Austen origin on the other hand... is so unoriginal! and doesn't work well for who and what kurt is. He may look like a demon but he is human.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/clare.jpg

[Cowlander]

Welcome on the CBR boards ;) :)
Yes, the Cockrum origin was ok, cause Nightmare isn't the Devil or a mutantwholooksevilandhaveinpsiredthebiblicaldevil. Nightmare is a demon, but he is at least original. And the nightmarish look of kurt perfecty fit with what nightmare is, with anything nightmarish. The Austen origin on the other hand... is so unoriginal! and doesn't work well for who and what kurt is. He may look like a demon but he is human.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/clare.jpg
good or bad being subjective and all. BUt how is CA's origin not original, but Cockrum's is?

[Stephane Garrelie]

good or bad being subjective and all. BUt how is CA's origin not original, but Cockrum's is?
The demonic aspect of Kurt linked to the essence of what Nightmare is. And Nightmare is a demon in Marvel's way and pantheon, not in a biblical way. He is not the devil.
Kurt soon of a mystical entity: interesting.:)
Kurt soon of the biblical devil or of the mutantwhoinspiredit: unoriginal.:( :mad:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/clare.jpg

[Cowlander]

The demonic aspect of Kurt linked to the essence of what Nightmare is. And Nightmare is a demon in Marvel's way and pantheon, not in a biblical way. He is not the devil.
Kurt soon of a mystical entity: interesting.:)
Kurt soon of the biblical devil or of the mutantwhoinspiredit: unoriginal.:( :mad:

[/IMG]
but he isnt the son of the biblical devil or of the mutantwhoinspiredit, hes the son of the mutantwholookslikepeoplesideaofthedevil :)

EDIT:: who thought there was actually a limit on smilies and images on here LOL

making him the literal son of a demon seems less original then CA or CC's idea. Whether it's better or executed in a satisfactory way is opinion. But the base idea seems more original then the generic, i look a demon and i'm actually the son of one.

[Stephane Garrelie]

but he isnt the son of the biblical devil or of the mutantwhoinspiredit, hes the son of the mutantwholookslikepeoplesideaofthedevil :)

EDIT:: who thought there was actually a limit on smilies and images on here LOL

making him the literal son of a demon seems less original then CA or CC's idea. Whether it's better or executed in a satisfactory way is opinion. But the base idea seems more original then the generic, i look a demon and i'm actually the son of one.
A demon according to the Mohotmu.
But Nightmare is more a mistycal entity than a demon. He is not demonic in a religious way. And he haven't a tail, forks feet and all that. The nightmarish aspect of Kurt linked to the entity that is the embodiment of nightmares makes sense.;)

But I agree, my favorite origine is the Claremont one.:)

[DDM]

A demon according to the Mohotmu.
But Nightmare is more a mistycal entity than a demon. He is not demonic in a religious way. And he haven't a tail, forks feet and all that. The nightmarish aspect of Kurt linked to the entity that is the embodiment of nightmares makes sense.;)

But I agree, my favorite origine is the Claremont one.:)

Nightmare is a demon of the order of Mephisto in power level. Nightmare's only true rival is Sorcerer Supreme, Doctor Strange.

In Uncanny X-Men Annual #4, Doctor Strange, using the all powerful Eye of Agamotto, determines, despite Nightcrawler's demonic appearance, he is human.

[becominAfanAgain]

That is disturbing on so many levels...

You are so right about that..It is disturbing that he would say that....true all so true.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Nightmare is a demon of the order of Mephisto in power level. Nightmare's only true rival is Sorcerer Supreme, Doctor Strange.

In Uncanny X-Men Annual #4, Doctor Strange, using the all powerful Eye of Agamotto, determines, despite Nightcrawler's demonic appearance, he is human.
yes, thats what i'm saying

[Alan2099]

I'm not found of typing Nightcrawler to any mystical being.

The bare facts make him intresting enough.

He's a religious man that was born looking like a demon. It works all by itself.

[fishtaco]

I'm not found of typing Nightcrawler to any mystical being.

The bare facts make him intresting enough.

He's a religious man that was born looking like a demon. It works all by itself.Exactly. That's the irony of the character. Despite having a demonic appearance, he is a devout Christian.

[Nightdreamer]

Nightmare is a demon of the order of Mephisto in power level. Nightmare's only true rival is Sorcerer Supreme, Doctor Strange.

In Uncanny X-Men Annual #4, Doctor Strange, using the all powerful Eye of Agamotto, determines, despite Nightcrawler's demonic appearance, he is human.

As I said, Cockrum wanted to do Nightmare as Kurt's father...it was Claremont who saw Dave's artwork of Mystique and said I want her...(as told to me by Paty Cockrum herself)! So the logic was...she is blue with yellow eyes, therefore, she must be Kurt's mother. It was purely an arbitrary decision because of the coloring factor to do Mystique as Kurt's mom. Claremont would have continued that thought of her being "father" because of the homosexual aspect of Mystique's relationship to Destiny. Mystique's shape-changing ability would have been stretched to allow her to mimic or actually have male...uh...accoutrements. This is a bit unfeasible for me as it means that Mystique becomes biologically what she is physically...a big stretch of imagination.

The etymology I discovered in studying the German roots of words makes things fit so well, and the fact that Nightmare IS a demon, which lends to Kurt's demonic appearance and ability to cross through the demonic realm when he teleports...everything fits too well. Cockrum was right on the money with his choice of Nightmare. The way I retconned Azazel was...and this is in the German as well...that the word elves ties in with a similar root that deals with incubus and succubus...and Azazel was an incubus. So Nightmare saw Mystique's desires and came to her in the form of Azazel.

Admit it, guys! Austin's Draco was badly written, badly drawn! Everyone, or almost everyone, agrees with that. And Azazel's insanity is DEFINITELY NOT part of Kurt's nature! He is as eloquent as Nightmare, and with as much savoir faire!

[Nightdreamer]

Exactly. That's the irony of the character. Despite having a demonic appearance, he is a devout Christian.

The religiousity was Claremont's contrivance, not Cockrum's, and Dave Cockrum created Nightcrawler. Claremont did that to add a moral byplay to his nature, an evident contrast to his appearance. Azazel is a madman...Kurt has no hint of insanity in his nature. Austin's characteriztion does not work...and Azazel is bleah!

Look at Roberto Aquirre-Sacasa's recent Nightcrawler series and the mystical that was brought out in Kurt's nature. The fact that he could bear the soulsword? His affilation with Margali, his foster mother, and Jimaine? Extrapolate, guys...there is a mystical side to Nightcrawler that cannot be denied. Roberto did not want to play with Austin's concepts or the religiousity...they stuck with Cockrum and Claremont's original ideas.

As a matter of fact, I think I can add a few more pages playing on Margali's knowledge of Kurt's true origins in my story...reinforcing the mystical!:D

[fishtaco]

The religiousity was Claremont's contrivance, not Cockrum's, and Dave Cockrum created Nightcrawler. Claremont did that to add a moral byplay to his nature, an evident contrast to his appearance. Azazel is a madman...Kurt has no hint of insanity in his nature. Austin's characteriztion does not work...and Azazel is bleah!

Look at Roberto Aquirre-Sacasa's recent Nightcrawler series and the mystical that was brought out in Kurt's nature. The fact that he could bear the soulsword? His affilation with Margali, his foster mother, and Jimaine? Extrapolate, guys...there is a mystical side to Nightcrawler that cannot be denied. Roberto did not want to play with Austin's concepts or the religiousity...they stuck with Cockrum and Claremont's original ideas.

As a matter of fact, I think I can add a few more pages playing on Margali's knowledge of Kurt's true origins in my story...reinforcing the mystical!:DI agree on all points except for the Soulsword. That sword belongs to no one else but Kitty...or Illyana (Excalibur 7, New Mutants 30, Uncanny X-Men 203, etc).

[Nightdreamer]

I agree on all points except for the Soulsword. That sword belongs to no one else but Kitty...or Illyana (Excalibur 7, New Mutants 30, Uncanny X-Men 203, etc).

Except...except...it is Nightcrawler's now thanks to the ending of Nightcrawler #12! Though I doubt that Brubaker will make use of it. Who knows, though? He might!

Also I freely acknowledge the scene in Nightcrawler's Inferno where Doctor Strange's Eye of Agamatto discerned that Kurt was human...that could be strictly his genetic inheritance from Mystique...also, Nightmare can take human form...his human name is Edvard Haberdash. He can also sire children. If Claremont can extrapolate that Mystique can have male sperm, then why can't Nightmare have human elements to his genetic makeup? I think I will reference the original origins of Nightmare and explore this further! ;)

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/nightmare/nightmare.html

[fishtaco]

Except...except...it is Nightcrawler's now thanks to the ending of Nightcrawler #12! Though I doubt that Brubaker will make use of it. Who knows, though? He might!

Also I freely acknowledge the scene in Nightcrawler's Infeerno where Doctor Strange's Eye of Agamatto discerned that Kurt was human...that could be strictly his genetic inheritance from Mystique...also, Nightmare can tak human form...his human name is Edvard Haberdash. He can also sire children. If Claremont can extrapolate that Mystique can have male sperm, then why can't Nightmare have human elements to his genetic makeup? I think I will reference the original origins of Nightmare and explore this further! ;)

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/nightmare/nightmare.htmlI know what happened in Nightcrawler's solo book, but I'm just saying that I feel like this was a mistake. Still, it's better than the Soulsword ending up with almost any other character, though. Kurt wielding the Soul Sword still makes sense, but Kitty is really what was always intended.

By the way, Nightmare is a DC character, right? I'm not familiar with much DC, so I wouldn't know. Did Cockrum intend for Nightmare to be Nightcrawler's father?

[Doom Hammer]

Nightmare is a Marvel character.

[Nightdreamer]

I know what happened in Nightcrawler's solo book, but I'm just saying that I feel like this was a mistake. Still, it's better than the Soulsword ending up with almost any other character, though. Kurt wielding the Soul Sword still makes sense, but Kitty is really what was always intended.

By the way, Nightmare is a DC character, right? I'm not familiar with much DC, so I wouldn't know. Did Cockrum intend for Nightmare to be Nightcrawler's father?

Doom Hammer answered that! Yes, Nightmare is a Marvel character, premiering in Strange Tales. It was an idea that Dave played with, and intended to use, but it got cast by the wayside. If you go to Nightscrawlers.com and go to Cockrum Corner, Dave answered that question. It has been my privilege to interact with the Cockrums for almost a year now! :D

[Callisto]

I dont think antimen is a good word for it, tho I cant come up with something more appropriate.

But basically with CC's constant downplaying of his male cast and his "chosen" females constant daring the impossible and accomplshing the unimaginable. It would seem to me to be another example of "oh look at the wondrous things women are capable of". I dont see anything wrong with it, except in CC's case it sorta seems like a subconcious reverse sexism.

Portrayals of women in earlier comic eras isnt the most praiseworthy thing. But it seems like hes trying so hard to not do that, he ends up doin it instead to the men. Except for Logan which someone better than me could make an argument that Logans just a "Gary Stu" for CC. Where all the usually female new and troubled chars go to for support.

Him making NC's parents Mys/Des wouldnt be original or thought provoking IMHO because hes shown a pattern of that type of downplaying men. I dont think its concious and I definitely dont thinks a intentially negative. I just think its there. Like his use of mind control, BDSM, team mate vs teammate etc etc.

Did that make sense?



ooooh i never noticed that before.

[Callisto]

As I said, Cockrum wanted to do Nightmare as Kurt's father...it was Claremont who saw Dave's artwork of Mystique and said I want her...(as told to me by Paty Cockrum herself)! So the logic was...she is blue with yellow eyes, therefore, she must be Kurt's mother. It was purely an arbitrary decision because of the coloring factor to do Mystique as Kurt's mom. Claremont would have continued that thought of her being "father" because of the homosexual aspect of Mystique's relationship to Destiny. Mystique's shape-changing ability would have been stretched to allow her to mimic or actually have male...uh...accoutrements. This is a bit unfeasible for me as it means that Mystique becomes biologically what she is physically...a big stretch of imagination.!

unless of course because of mystiques mutation shes naturally able to shift between male and female organs.

[DDM]

Except...except...it is Nightcrawler's now thanks to the ending of Nightcrawler #12! Though I doubt that Brubaker will make use of it. Who knows, though? He might!

Also I freely acknowledge the scene in Nightcrawler's Infeerno where Doctor Strange's Eye of Agamatto discerned that Kurt was human...that could be strictly his genetic inheritance from Mystique...also, Nightmare can tak human form...his human name is Edvard Haberdash. He can also sire children. If Claremont can extrapolate that Mystique can have male sperm, then why can't Nightmare have human elements to his genetic makeup? I think I will reference the original origins of Nightmare and explore this further! ;)

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/nightmare/nightmare.html


The power of the Eye of Agamotto is to strip away everything else to find the truth; therefore, the Sorcerer Supreme--wielding the Eye of Agamotto--does not make mistakes. Doctor Strange, using the Eye of Agamotto, discerns Kurt Wagner is human.

Regardless what was stated in Nightcrawler's attempt as an ongoing series can be put down as simply editorial ignorance. Marvel has plenty of ignorant editors working for them & plenty of mistakes see print that it should happen.

[Arilou]

ability to cross through the demonic realm when he teleports...

While Nightmare's realm is arguably *a* Demon Realm it isn't "the Demon Realm" it's the Nightmare Dimension. Though I like the idea of Nightmare being Nightcrawler's father...

[DDM]

While Nightmare's realm is arguably *a* Demon Realm it isn't "the Demon Realm" it's the Nightmare Dimension. Though I like the idea of Nightmare being Nightcrawler's father...

Nightmare already has a kid called the Dream Queen.

[Arilou]

Nightmare already has a kid called the Dream Queen.

I thought she was his sister?

[Beyond The Beyonder]

I skipped the Austen run, and the more I hear about it the more I realize I couldn't have made a better choice.

And of all the things I hear, I think his butchery of Kurt's origin is the worst.

Why don't we all write to Brubaker, catch him up on the backstory in case he doesn't know it, and ask whether he'll address it in his arc? He's a longtime X-fan, apparently, plus he's expressed interest in upholding Claremont's ideas. If he sees that people are interested in getting this cleared up, I'd say there's a good chance he'll do it.

Maybe he can retcon in completely and bring Kurt's origin back to where it was before Austen, or maybe he can do the Nightmare thing, or the Mystique-Destiny thing or something completely new, but anything would be better than the Austen origin.

So let's all get out our pens and papers, eh? Snail mail is more effective than e-mail, although that would be better than nothing.

[DDM]

I thought she was his sister?

Nope, the Dream Queen is his daughter.

[Geoff~]

We really don't like change.

Quoted for emphasis

-Geoff

[Nightdreamer]

Indeed, but no one liked Austen's change either! Early in the history of the X-Men they never had an origin for Kurt. It evolved as a story idea for the books thanks to the analogy with Mystique's coloration. You see, you guys may be a little on the young side and Austen is all you have ever known, but growing up with Cockrum, Byrne and Claremont, I recall a lot more origin. Thirty years have passed since the X-Men premiered, and I say "No!" to change as much as you do. But no to the changes that have been inflicted by Austen...giving Kurt a whacko mutant/demonic father. I would like to go thirty years back! (If I only could!!!!! :D)

[Cowlander]

Indeed, but no one liked Austen's change either! Early in the history of the X-Men they never had an origin for Kurt. It evolved as a story idea for the books thanks to the analogy with Mystique's coloration. You see, you guys may be a little on the young side and Austen is all you have ever known, but growing up with Cockrum, Byrne and Claremont, I recall a lot more origin. Thirty years have passed since the X-Men premiered, and I say "No!" to change as much as you do. But no to the changes that have been inflicted by Austen...giving Kurt a whacko mutant/demonic father. I would like to go thirty years back! (If I only could!!!!! :D)
I liked Austen run, and I like the Draco origin. It was executed badly I agree tho. BUt its nowhere near the train wreck "fans" like to make it out to be. I even think it provides the most amount of possible future storylines out of the 3 possible origins.

Now I just turned 30 earlier this month I've been reading the books since before I could read and all I could do was look at the pretty pictures. Now you might not have intended it this way, but everytime you pull the "you yound whippersnappers" or something like that it comes across as pretty condescending and seriously insulting. Youre not the first , and unfortunately you wont be the last but youve brought good points up to this point and thats always welcome here.

[Alan2099]

Just because something opens up story possibilities doesn't make it a good thing.

It's extremely hard to build good storys off a shakey idea.

[Beyond The Beyonder]

The Austen origin may raise all kinds of "story possibilities," and those kind of possibilities might work for another character. Somebody mysterious and dark and brooding. Someone who'd show up in WOLVERINE, an anti-hero from the '90s, or let's say, Damion Hellstrom. But for Kurt it's totally ridiculous. He's not that kind of story. He's a swashbuckler. He's a fuzzy elf! He's a German mystic and a playful charmer and he's not the frickin' Son of Satan, you know? Marvel already has one of those. And, I might add, he hasn't given us nearly as many interesting stories as Kurt has!

Kurt doesn't need a secret origin. He doesn't need new backstory. One of the central character elements that make him tick is that he's demonic in appearance only. Under that surface he's all faith, hope, love.

I think the Nightmare thing could've worked, even, if it had been done early on, but Kurt's such an established character, and we know him so well, it doesn't even really matter who his father is, because Kurt's Kurt. How would it change him if we knew Nightmare was his father? It would just be a one-storyline plot device at this point. And "Azazel" was over the top, absolutely senseless, only written to shake things up rather than to engender actual growth, and at the end of the day it's an embarrassment X-Men continuity.

And again, we could all be writing to Brubaker and inviting him to help remove this li'l stain.

[DDM]

The Austen origin may raise all kinds of "story possibilities," and those kind of possibilities might work for another character. Somebody mysterious and dark and brooding. Someone who'd show up in WOLVERINE, an anti-hero from the '90s, or let's say, Damion Hellstrom. But for Kurt it's totally ridiculous. He's not that kind of story. He's a swashbuckler. He's a fuzzy elf! He's a German mystic and a playful charmer and he's not the frickin' Son of Satan, you know? Marvel already has one of those. And, I might add, he hasn't given us nearly as many interesting stories as Kurt has!

Kurt doesn't need a secret origin. He doesn't need new backstory. One of the central character elements that make him tick is that he's demonic in appearance only. Under that surface he's all faith, hope, love.

I think the Nightmare thing could've worked, even, if it had been done early on, but Kurt's such an established character, and we know him so well, it doesn't even really matter who his father is, because Kurt's Kurt. How would it change him if we knew Nightmare was his father? It would just be a one-storyline plot device at this point. And "Azazel" was over the top, absolutely senseless, only written to shake things up rather than to engender actual growth, and at the end of the day it's an embarrassment X-Men continuity.

And again, we could all be writing to Brubaker and inviting him to help remove this li'l stain.


Chris Claremont strongly hinted a connection between Nightcrawler & Mystique in Uncanny X-Men #141-142; therefore, this set everything in motion. Mystique knows Nightcrawler's real name, Kurt Wagner, & his foster mother, the sorceress, Margali Szardos. Furthermore, in Uncanny X-Men #178, Mystique is training in Arcade's MurderWorld with robot X-Men. She killed all of them, including Rogue, yet she could not kill Nightcrawler. Why?

Why is Mystique so ashamed of Nightcrawler? Yet she is not ashamed of Rogue. The most logical explaination is Mystique is the father of Nightcrawler which disgusts her in some way because her true form is that of a woman.

[Nightdreamer]

I liked Austen run, and I like the Draco origin. It was executed badly I agree tho. BUt its nowhere near the train wreck "fans" like to make it out to be. I even think it provides the most amount of possible future storylines out of the 3 possible origins.

Now I just turned 30 earlier this month I've been reading the books since before I could read and all I could do was look at the pretty pictures. Now you might not have intended it this way, but everytime you pull the "you yound whippersnappers" or something like that it comes across as pretty condescending and seriously insulting. Youre not the first , and unfortunately you wont be the last but youve brought good points up to this point and thats always welcome here.


Thank you, and I apologize if I sounded insulting! Just feeling my age somedays...lol!