Cap or Iron Man?

[Bobster777]

Okay, let's forget about what sides they stand for a moment. What I want to know is, if you had to chose one to be your leader, who would you chose?

Iron Man has the powerful suit, incredible intellect and wealth, and connections to some of the most powerful people in the world.

Cap is the greatest military mind there is, his presence is inspirational, and he'll never let you down.

Who do you follow?

[Den]

Captain America

Don't get me wrong, Tony is a hero as well, but he can be a manipulator when it means getting his way, and I'd rather be inspired than manipulated.

[Ravenheart]

Captain America for all the reasons you stated.He can inspire people just by making an appearance.

[SpartanX]

Steve. For me he is an Icon for the US, so he is an inspiration.

[USAgent]

How bout CAP in his armor... Hehe, well this is a difficult one for me. I mean look CAP is a Super military mind but I would rather have a Great military mind like my namesake USAgent and all the money of Iron Man. With shell head as back-up. There is no way CAP could win.

[Locue]

Look, Iron Man is just a guy with a mech warrior suit and Cap is an über-hardcore (no pun intended) super soldier.

Anyone can be Iron Man but it takes a lot to walk around in red, white and blue tights with little white wings on your eartips and STILL LOOK INCREDIBLY COOL! I'm with Cap, no matter what.

[USAgent]

Look, Iron Man is just a guy with a mech warrior suit and Cap is an über-hardcore (no pun intended) super soldier.

Anyone can be Iron Man but it takes a lot to walk around in red, white and blue tights with little white wings on your eartips and STILL LOOK INCREDIBLY COOL! I'm with Cap, no matter what.

OK WE ARE GONNA FIGHT NOW!!! Just kidding :). But USAgent looks better in his tights and wings!!! Wait a minute, why are we talking about men in tights... uhh Storm and Elektra and Psylock and Jean Grey looks good in tights... yeah thats the ticket.

[LordEd1976]

Cap all the way.

[Serik]

Cap is the single best leader in the Marvel U. I'd pick him any day.

But I'm sure Tony could hook you up with anything you want...a condo in Manhattan, a sports car, maybe a private jet.

[Ironspider]

cap because tony a druck

[USAgent]

Or an army full of SUper Soldiers fliying around in Iron Man or War Machine Armor though...

[mrc1214]

Captain America for the same reasons as posted above.

[Rahul]

Going Against the Grain: IRON MAN!

I like to follow someone who follows his mind than his heart, and thus prevent from making mistakes that arise from emotional decisions.

Of course, this has nothing to do with Civil War, just a general thing.

[USAgent]

Going Against the Grain: IRON MAN!

I like to follow someone who follows his mind than his heart, and thus prevent from making mistakes that arise from emotional decisions.

Of course, this has nothing to do with Civil War, just a general thing.

Good point, its almost like a "just business" thing. No attatchments.

[Ultimate Scorpion]

Cap is the single best leader in the Marvel U. I'd pick him any day.

But I'm sure Tony could hook you up with anything you want...a condo in Manhattan, a sports car, maybe a private jet.

I beg to differ. He is not the best leader in the MU... That is stretching it a little. All he does is where th Red White and Blue kicks ass and takes names. There are plenty of other that have proven themselves. What about Prof X or Apocolypse or Galactus even...

[Disc13]

Anyone can be Iron Man

Uhh what? So you're saying the suit makes the hero? I thought I was reading about Tony Stark as Iron Man throughout the years. Any bum in the suit doesn't make a hero anymore than another man with super soldier serum running through their veins or a guy bitten by a radioactive spider. We read about them because Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Peter Parker are interesting characters, not just because of the powers they posses.

[Modi]

Id go for cap's site, because Iron man is working with hill and they are both manipulators.

[Ultimate Scorpion]

Id go for cap's site, because Iron man is working with hill and they are both manipulators.

Where in Civil War have you seen Hill with Stark. But manipulators are sometimes the best leaders.

[Locue]

Uhh what? So you're saying the suit makes the hero? I thought I was reading about Tony Stark as Iron Man throughout the years. Any bum in the suit doesn't make a hero anymore than another man with super soldier serum running through their veins or a guy bitten by a radioactive spider. We read about them because Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Peter Parker are interesting characters, not just because of the powers they posses.
The suit is the sole thing what makes Tony Stark anything like a hero. Otherwise he's just your average business man alcoholic with the best facial hair comics has to offer. He basically went thinking some time ago something like this: "Man, I wanna be a hero! Where did I put my screwdriver?" Tony is an interesting character, but would he be interesting without the suit?

And wouldn't a bum in the Iron Man suit be just as interesting to read about?

Edit: That said, obviously this goes for any super hero, really. Except for Punisher, of course. :)

[Bobster777]

The suit is the sole thing what makes Tony Stark anything like a hero. Otherwise he's just your average business man alcoholic with the best facial hair comics has to offer. He basically went thinking some time ago something like this: "Man, I wanna be a hero! Where did I put my screwdriver?" Tony is an interesting character, but would he be interesting without the suit?

And wouldn't a bum in the Iron Man suit be just as interesting to read about?

Edit: That said, obviously this goes for any super hero, really. Except for Punisher, of course. :)
If I remember correctly, the reason Tony built the armor in the first place was at the request of a bunch of terrorists. The guy is a billionaire. He doesn't have to be saving peoples' lives. He can just be living the life in his ivory tower and laughing at how pathetic everyone else is. Instead, he goes out there everyday trying to save lives. That to me is what makes him a hero. Call him an alcoholic (which he is) or whatever else. Other people wouldn't do what he did.

You also asked would Tony be interesting character without the suit. I don't think this is a fair question. The suit is an extention of the guy's genius. His genius is basically his power. A bum couldn't do what he does because a bum wouldn't be as smart as him. Also, would Cap be interesting without the super soldier serum?

[Aztec Ace]

If I remember correctly, the reason Tony built the armor in the first place was at the request of a bunch of terrorists.


Just the facts.

While on a visit to Vietnam to see how his new mini-transistors could assist the American war effort, Stark is caught in a booby trap. Captured by a Vietnamese warlord named Wong Chu, and dying from a piece of shrapnel lodged in his heart from the booby trap, Stark is pressed into building weapons for Wong Chu, along with a fellow prisoner, the famed physicist Yin Sen (later called Ho Yinsen). However, Stark and Yin Sen use the workshop to secretly design and construct a suit of powered armor — an iron exoskeleton that gives Stark tremendous strength as well as other abilities — that will not only keep Stark's heart beating, but also allow him to escape. Yin Sen sacrifices himself to buy Stark time to charge the bulky suit of armor, and as Iron Man, Stark makes short work of Wong Chu and his men. On the way back, Iron Man encounters a wounded American Air Force helicopter pilot, Jim Rhodes. Introducing himself as Stark's bodyguard, Iron Man and Rhodes manage to defend themselves

[tonearcher]

Iron Man because he grew up in my time. Captain America was frozen, and thrown into this world. Look at Encino Man, it always ends in tragedy.

[Disc13]

Edit: That said, obviously this goes for any super hero, really. Except for Punisher, of course. :)

Heh so you pretty much proved my point. Without being bit by a radioactive spider, Peter Parker would just be a nerdy lab rat (probably a succesful scientist at this point). Without super soldier serum, Captain America would be a skinny army reject. But these characters combined with the gifts they were given (or made in Tony's case) make them the super heroes we want to read about.

[Will.S]

Who saved Cap's ass from a freefall in Avengers Annual #6? Who also shielded Cap and the NA from a full on blast from a S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier? Who helped stave off She-Hulk in Disassembled and supported the Avengers financially?

Iron Man dammit!

[Bromoc]

Neither, they both don't adequently stand for what i stand for. Only thing that makes a good leader is the ability to delegate and make sure those you delegate get it done. Beyond that i belive you should choose your leaders based on how similar their ideals mesh with yours.

That being said, tactically I'd follow Cap. Strategcly i'll follow Iron Man. Ideally neither.

[Sparda]

I'd rather join Professor X. Come on without him to begin with the age of apocalypse would have happend and neither cap or iron man prevented it.

Xavior is financially good, Former soldier, pacifist, and hell a good strategist (considering he's a telepath)

[Lonewalker]

Cap. Either way, I'm not a fan of Tinman...

[Will.S]

Just the facts.

While on a visit to Vietnam to see how his new mini-transistors could assist the American war effort, Stark is caught in a booby trap. Captured by a Vietnamese warlord named Wong Chu, and dying from a piece of shrapnel lodged in his heart from the booby trap, Stark is pressed into building weapons for Wong Chu, along with a fellow prisoner, the famed physicist Yin Sen (later called Ho Yinsen). However, Stark and Yin Sen use the workshop to secretly design and construct a suit of powered armor — an iron exoskeleton that gives Stark tremendous strength as well as other abilities — that will not only keep Stark's heart beating, but also allow him to escape. Yin Sen sacrifices himself to buy Stark time to charge the bulky suit of armor, and as Iron Man, Stark makes short work of Wong Chu and his men. On the way back, Iron Man encounters a wounded American Air Force helicopter pilot, Jim Rhodes. Introducing himself as Stark's bodyguard, Iron Man and Rhodes manage to defend themselves I think he's referring to the updated origin from the more recent Ellis run.

[Serik]

Who saved Cap's ass from a freefall in Avengers Annual #6? Who also shielded Cap and the NA from a full on blast from a S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier? Who helped stave off She-Hulk in Disassembled and supported the Avengers financially?

Iron Man dammit!

Didn't you get the memo, Will? IM is supposed to be a jerk that people start hating - not some kind of superhero! :p

[Young Avenger]

Iron Man all the way. Sure Captain America is great leader but Iron Man can supply resources and get the job done without having his feeling getting in the way of what needs to be done.

[xtreme680]

Iron Man. I thought extremis made it clear that the man made the suit, not the other way around, but I guess I'll extrapolate.

Tony Stark is a genius, in science, in business, and continually renews and improves himself. He's a generous man as well, with strong morals and a dedication to those morals. I don't know where people see Tony as this terrible guy. He strongly believes in his ideals as much as Cap does.

While Tony is taking the hard stance, the one he sees as right, regardless of whether or not his friends agree, Captain America is taking the easy stance, running away when his country needs him most. Tony's hand has been forced. No one is above the law. Not even Cap.

[Loestal]

Iron Man. I thought extremis made it clear that the man made the suit, not the other way around, but I guess I'll extrapolate.

Tony Stark is a genius, in science, in business, and continually renews and improves himself. He's a generous man as well, with strong morals and a dedication to those morals. I don't know where people see Tony as this terrible guy. He strongly believes in his ideals as much as Cap does.

While Tony is taking the hard stance, the one he sees as right, regardless of whether or not his friends agree, Captain America is taking the easy stance, running away when his country needs him most. Tony's hand has been forced. No one is above the law. Not even Cap.


But when the law in unjust, do you suggest just rolling over and taking it? If that is what's what you want, you're on a road to a dictatorship where freedoms are trampled on. Cap isn't a mindless drone of the government despite his name. He stands for the ideals behind the US, not the actual reality of it because, even in real life, the reality of the US is ugly.

[xtreme680]

But when the law in unjust, do you suggest just rolling over and taking it? If that is what's what you want, you're on a road to a dictatorship where freedoms are trampled on. Cap isn't a mindless drone of the government despite his name. He stands for the ideals behind the US, not the actual reality of it because, even in real life, the reality of the US is ugly.

Of course not. But I've never considered the law unjust, and I don't think Captain America does either. He's opposed to fighting his friends. And I think that is a critical difference. Cap and Tony both like the concept of registering heroes, but Cap doesn't want to fight other heroes. Iron Man knows that's what has to happen if these heroes are to be held accountable for their actions, responsible for civilian casualties, as well as mistakes.

Cap obviously isn't a drone of the government, but consider it from this perspective. Cap is supposed to be for the people of the United States, correct? Well 700 of them were just killed because the New Warriors didn't have the proper handle on the situation. They weren't ready to fight Nitro. Obviously, the solution is to make sure that people who user their powers to fight crime are ready to use them, that way we don't have Joe Superhero blowing up a power plant because he didn't realize that along with flight, he had the ability to shoot explosives from his wrists. How can this be part of an ideal America? One of the ideals of America is the rule of law, and Cap can't go against it just because he's afraid to stand up to his friends.

[Serik]

I still don't understand how some people see superhuman registration as a road to dictatorship. After all, the majority of people want these superhumans to register with the government - democracy in action. And it's not like any Constitutionally-protected rights would be infringed by doing this.

The only argument the anti side really has is that SHIELD can't be trusted to manage the registered superhumans because the agency is corrupt. I think the pro side might win over more supporters if they focused on reforming SHIELD...

[xtreme680]

I still don't understand how some people see superhuman registration as a road to dictatorship. After all, the majority of people want these superhumans to register with the government - democracy in action. And it's not like any Constitutionally-protected rights would be infringed by doing this.

The only argument the anti side really has is that SHIELD can't be trusted to manage the registered superhumans because the agency is corrupt. I think the pro side might win over more supporters if they focused on reforming SHIELD...

I completely agree. This corrupt SHIELD is hurting what is, I think, a morally correct side. God how I hate Hill.

[BYC]

I think the knee-jerk reaction is to pick Cap, but Iron Man is overall the better person to have in most situations.

He runs a billion dollar corporation. He can deal with people. He can play the business game, or the direct approach via conflict. He has technology on his side. Tony certainly isn't at Cap's level when it comes to battle tactics, but he's good enough most of the time.

Iron Man is better except in combat.

[Bobster777]

I think the knee-jerk reaction is to pick Cap, but Iron Man is overall the better person to have in most situations.

He runs a billion dollar corporation. He can deal with people. He can play the business game, or the direct approach via conflict. He has technology on his side. Tony certainly isn't at Cap's level when it comes to battle tactics, but he's good enough most of the time.

Iron Man is better except in combat.

Hmm, I guess that another good question that BYC has just posed. Who would be better in a combat situation? Cap, a super soldier who is probably the best tactician in the world, or Iron Man, a bonified genius wielding a suit of power?

[Calybos]

Ordinarily, I'd steer clear of following a solider and prefer a smart man instead.

But Cap is also driven by IDEALS rather than pragmatism; that's what I respect about him, much more than his ability to kick butt and his talent for command.

[Mainline]

Tony was an... interesting... Sec. of Defense... but not necessarily a good one. I'd rather follow Steve.

[Sado]

Iron man...o yeah, please kill off Hill.

[Haunt]

Iron man...o yeah, please kill off Hill.


but she's so cute!

Ordinarily, I'd steer clear of following a solider and prefer a smart man instead.

But Cap is also driven by IDEALS rather than pragmatism; that's what I respect about him, much more than his ability to kick butt and his talent for command.


yikes. maybe it's just me but i'd rather follow the guy who doesn't expect me to give up my life just to protect my identity.

[Bobster777]

Iron man...o yeah, please kill off Hill.
Ha ha, that's kind of harsh. The lady isn't evil or anything. She's just trying to do her job. Unfortunately, she just isn't getting it done the way Nick Fury used to get things done.

[USAgent]

Ordinarily, I'd steer clear of following a solider and prefer a smart man instead.

But Cap is also driven by IDEALS rather than pragmatism; that's what I respect about him, much more than his ability to kick butt and his talent for command.

OK, a Soldier will keep you alive when it counts. A smart man wouldnt put that Soldier in the position where the Soldier needs to keep you alive. I'd follow the Soldier any day. So where does that put us.. in my opinion Iron Man is the better choice because he is a "Soldier" but can also be the smart man. So you have the best of both worlds. Lets hope the "smart" part of Iron Man can bring all of this together and bring the Marvel Universe back to one big happy family... A registered family. Before the "Soldier" part of him takes Cap and the "rebels" down. Because in the end thats what they are rebels. The people have spoken... (in the marvel-verse.)

[Calybos]

No, I'm saying Cap is better than just a soldier. He's an idealist, which is more worthwhile.

And Tony's an arrogant jerk, despite his genius.

[Bobster777]

No, I'm saying Cap is better than just a soldier. He's an idealist, which is more worthwhile.

And Tony's an arrogant jerk, despite his genius.
Ha ha, so I'm guessing arrogant jerk is not a quality you look for in a leader? :D

[Brandon McKinnis]

Idealism isn't always the greatest thing in the world, if your ideals are flawed and you follow them through how is that any better. People are essentially missing this point when defending the rebels, by not registering, this conflict can only escalate. Cap's blind idealism is just as much at fault for this conflict as SHIELD's heavy handedness. If Cap really wanted to stop this, he would be working with Stark and SHIELD to improve the literature of the act, as opposed to being a reactionary.

[Haunt]

Ha ha, so I'm guessing arrogant jerk is not a quality you look for in a leader? :D


*walks away without handing out 'vote for haunt' buttons* :(

[xtreme680]

I've never saw Captain America as an idealist in this sense. He just got upset because he would have to fight heroes, and started justifying it to himself as part of his values. He was never like "No way civil liberties and blah blah blah!" He was worried about the practical measures of the act, splitting superheroes into two opposing factions. Then, Hill told him about how he would have to hunt heroes down, and that irked him.

I don't know why Tony can't be an idealist as well. If an idealist is someone who followers ideals, then Tony is an idealist because this is one of his ideals and something he feels strongly about in a moral way. He doesn't want to fight heroes, but his hand has been forced, and he has to live in the real world and deal with the realities of his ideals.

[Bobster777]

I've never saw Captain America as an idealist in this sense. He just got upset because he would have to fight heroes, and started justifying it to himself as part of his values. He was never like "No way civil liberties and blah blah blah!" He was worried about the practical measures of the act, splitting superheroes into two opposing factions. Then, Hill told him about how he would have to hunt heroes down, and that irked him.

I don't know why Tony can't be an idealist as well. If an idealist is someone who followers ideals, then Tony is an idealist because this is one of his ideals and something he feels strongly about in a moral way. He doesn't want to fight heroes, but his hand has been forced, and he has to live in the real world and deal with the realities of his ideals.
If you are an idealist, you put your ideals over what is practical. Thus, Iron Man is not an idealist. He sees that it isn't practical to fight the law, so, he is going against his ideals. Cap on the other hand will always be a defender of civil liberties no matter what the consequences are. Thus, Cap is truly an idealist.

[xtreme680]

If you are an idealist, you put your ideals over what is practical. Thus, Iron Man is not an idealist. He sees that it isn't practical to fight the law, so, he is going against his ideals. Cap on the other hand will always be a defender of civil liberties no matter what the consequences are. Thus, Cap is truly an idealist.

See I just don't see why this is necessarily true. Cap was never all gung ho about the civil liberties deal. He just didn't see the practical nature of starting up a war between heroes, and then he was really disturbed that he was going to have to hunt them down. He then started talking about civil liberties later as some sort of justification for his personal issues about fighting other heroes.

Meanwhile, Tony sees the SHRA as an ideal, a means by which accountability and safety will be brought to the profession. He didn't just say, oh well, this is gonna pass anyway, I might as well go along. He was behind it all the way and even went the extra step and revealed his identity. He always saw it as a great moral victory and a standard to live up to. When told he had to fight heroes, he was able to do it, because his ideals meant more to him than the practical nature of having to enforce them.

But it's another one of those things about the civil war. You can't classify it as idealists vs realists, or liberals vs conservatives. Both sides can be justifiable under any of those viewpoints. Wolverine said, if I can remember the quote correctly, "The world ain't so nice outside your ivory tower." I think he is one of the anti reg realists, who see it as a dangerous overstep of government power that will only lead to bad things, and he sees the pro reg people as idealists in a negative light.

Of course, I'm a huge Iron Man fanboy, so you may not want to listen to me at all. :)

[USAgent]

Idealism isn't always the greatest thing in the world, if your ideals are flawed and you follow them through how is that any better. People are essentially missing this point when defending the rebels, by not registering, this conflict can only escalate. Cap's blind idealism is just as much at fault for this conflict as SHIELD's heavy handedness. If Cap really wanted to stop this, he would be working with Stark and SHIELD to improve the literature of the act, as opposed to being a reactionary.

Good point.

[armyE2]

As a soldier in the United States Army. It is my duty to follow my Higher ups. So i will go with the Cap

[Haunt]

As a soldier in the United States Army. It is my duty to follow my Higher ups. So i will go with the Cap

Carol Danvers was a major in the air force. and Tony used to be Secretary of Defense.

[Green Arrow Jr.]

Captain America,he is the man.Tony Stark is the Secret Society type of guy who manipulated Spiderman and conspired with George Bush,and Mr. Fantastic to start this registration act in the first place.

[Bobster777]

Captain America,he is the man.Tony Stark is the Secret Society type of guy who manipulated Spiderman and conspired with George Bush,and Mr. Fantastic to start this registration act in the first place.
Umm, that's far from the truth. Tony was never for the SHRA. He only jumped on board when it was for sure it was going to pass.

[Mainline]

Idealism isn't always the greatest thing in the world, if your ideals are flawed and you follow them through how is that any better. People are essentially missing this point when defending the rebels, by not registering, this conflict can only escalate. Cap's blind idealism is just as much at fault for this conflict as SHIELD's heavy handedness. If Cap really wanted to stop this, he would be working with Stark and SHIELD to improve the literature of the act, as opposed to being a reactionary.It's only blind if there's nothing to back it up. They don't live in our world, they live in theirs which has 70+ years of historical precedent and 1000 incidents of defied reality as we know it on a daily basis. Cap's idealism is based on fact, whereas Tony's "pragmatism" is based on paranoia.

They live in a world of spandex... if there wasn't historical precedent backing up their optimism no super-heroine would dare wear anything like what they do for fear of all the "pragmatic" and real consequences that would follow in our world.

[Bobster777]

It's only blind if there's nothing to back it up. They don't live in our world, they live in theirs which has 70+ years of historical precedent and 1000 incidents of defied reality as we know it on a daily basis. Cap's idealism is based on fact, whereas Tony's "pragmatism" is based on paranoia.

They live in a world of spandex... if there wasn't historical precedent backing up their optimism no super-heroine would dare wear anything like what they do for fear of all the "pragmatic" and real consequences that would follow in our world.
Actually, in the Marvel U, heroes have only been around for two decades or so. Also, it's not just about paranoia. People have turned a blind eye because of their love affair with heroes. For the most part, heroes have acted responsibly so the public has accepted what they do. However, because they turned a blind eye, Stamford happened. It's illogical to continue not acting when something like Stamford has occurred. Asking for accountability is not a major thing. Basically, the heores have been able to do what they want up to this point without much intervention. It's about time that they compromised a bit.

[Mainline]

Two decades... brother, what's Captain America, the very one being discussed? Not to mention Namor and the Human Torch that proceeded him. It PURELY paranoia. The same type of mentality that thinks keeping nail clippers off airplanes is going to prevent the next 9/11.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Two decades... brother, what's Captain America, the very one being discussed? Not to mention Namor and the Human Torch that proceeded him. It PURELY paranoia. The same type of mentality that thinks keeping nail clippers off airplanes is going to prevent the next 9/11.

By not working with stark and hill to improve the act Cap is just as responsible for this coming war, It isn't about standing for the rights of others, he's planning for it.

[Bobster777]

Two decades... brother, what's Captain America, the very one being discussed? Not to mention Namor and the Human Torch that proceeded him. It PURELY paranoia. The same type of mentality that thinks keeping nail clippers off airplanes is going to prevent the next 9/11.
You see, I never understood why people where so peeved about that. I mean, the airport can't have a list of what is safe and isn't safe. Plus, are nail clippers so important that it has to be brought onto the plane?

Well, I meant in terms of what we are seeing now, it has only been two decades. In Cap's time, it was still pretty rare to see a super hero.

Also, yes, there is a point in saying that it is paranoia. But what is wrong with having a little bit of paranoia. For years, Americans have just been laissez faire about protecting important instillations. Everyone could basically just walk into a nuclear power plant. It's not purely paranoia to realize that these places can be easily compromised if we don't put more security. In terms of wire tapping everyone though, I think that's a little too much.

The same thing can be said in the Marvel U. For years, people have been laissez faire about super heroes doing their thing because nothing completely wreckless has happened. The result of that was, Stamford. So, there is nothing wrong with trying to rectify that mistake by trying to bring more accountability into super hero work. The only problem is, the law has been handled so poorly.

[Brandon McKinnis]

I know the rebels are supposed to come off as "The Black Panther Party For Defense", but the way it's being written I have more sympathy for Tony's side than Cap's (Luke Cage or not)

[Brandon McKinnis]

I've never saw Captain America as an idealist in this sense. He just got upset because he would have to fight heroes, and started justifying it to himself as part of his values. He was never like "No way civil liberties and blah blah blah!" He was worried about the practical measures of the act, splitting superheroes into two opposing factions. Then, Hill told him about how he would have to hunt heroes down, and that irked him.

I don't know why Tony can't be an idealist as well. If an idealist is someone who followers ideals, then Tony is an idealist because this is one of his ideals and something he feels strongly about in a moral way. He doesn't want to fight heroes, but his hand has been forced, and he has to live in the real world and deal with the realities of his ideals.


Iowa City is awesome.

[Mainline]

By not working with stark and hill to improve the act Cap is just as responsible for this coming war, It isn't about standing for the rights of others, he's planning for it.Not really. Cap stands for the status quo, which makes Stark the instigator. And largely, this is the massive flaw in reasoning for any pro-Reg person. Sanctioning reactionaries versus instigators. Compromising the effectiveness of heroes rather than optimizing anti-villain response.

You see, I never understood why people where so peeved about that. I mean, the airport can't have a list of what is safe and isn't safe. Plus, are nail clippers so important that it has to be brought onto the plane?Therein lies the mentality that'll never let you understand Cap.

[USAgent]

As a soldier in the United States Army. It is my duty to follow my Higher ups. So i will go with the Cap

Bad example.

Uhh... if you look, the higher ups did tell Cap to do something and he failed to obey a lawful order.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Bad example.

Uhh... if you look, the higher ups did tell Cap to do something and he failed to obey a lawful order.


Yea, Cap's AWOL right now and leading a rebellion, that's high treason brotha, Cap could get executed.

[Mainline]

Yea, Cap's AWOL right now and leading a rebellion, that's high treason brotha, Cap could get executed.Unlikely. The law, though fast-tracked by a pandering legislature, under even the most loose interpretations of the Constitution is unlawful and all but garanteed to be overturned by a superior court. The very purpose of the court is to check and balance a legislature prone to the manipulations of the mob. At such a time, even if Cap was held and tried for treason, he would be released and likely lauded for his part in opposing an unConstitutional law.

If the law wasn't blatantly broken and illegally executed, then you might have a point, but as it stands you don't... it's akin to claiming a Vietnam vet would get tried for treason while refusing a superiors orders to launch an artillery assault on another allied division. Or, simply put, ridiculous.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Unlikely. The law, though fast-tracked by a pandering legislature, under even the most loose interpretations of the Constitution is unlawful and all but garanteed to be overturned by a superior court. The very purpose of the court is to check and balance a legislature prone to the manipulations of the mob. At such a time, even if Cap was held and tried for treason, he would be released and likely lauded for his part in opposing an unConstitutional law.

If the law wasn't blatantly broken and illegally executed, then you might have a point, but as it stands you don't... it's akin to claiming a Vietnam vet would get tried for treason while refusing a superiors orders to launch an artillery assault on another allied division. Or, simply put, ridiculous.

What you're claiming is if someone breaks a law and fights against the police who are attempting to apprehend them, they should be able to react however to get away even if it means violence.

Cap is an active combatant though (Shown CW #2), he's not only refusing orders but attacking out right. He has started a rebellion and is actively fighting against his higher ups (Not only idealogical mind you but physically), I'd say these are pretty blatant breaches of the law as it is.

Also the law has passed, it's in effect, and presumably the supreme court has allowed it. If we got to see the inner workings of the marvel legislative process you may be able to argue how this would have worked in the marvelverse and have had a point, but as it stands you don't...

[Bobster777]

Therein lies the mentality that'll never let you understand Cap.
Well, not really. I understand Cap completely. The reason why he became a hero in the first place was his deep desire to defend the fundamental rights of this country. Thus, while I understand what he is saying, doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

[xtreme680]

Iowa City is awesome.

Isn't it? I just finished up my first year and am home for summer, and I can't wait until the end of July so that I can go back. Nice to see others are around here.

As far as the other stuff on this thread, I guess I'm confused why no one is considering what I'm saying, that maybe Iron Man is truly trying to "do the right thing" and Cap is the pragmatic one, but that's cool.

[Locue]

Heh so you pretty much proved my point. Without being bit by a radioactive spider, Peter Parker would just be a nerdy lab rat (probably a succesful scientist at this point). Without super soldier serum, Captain America would be a skinny army reject. But these characters combined with the gifts they were given (or made in Tony's case) make them the super heroes we want to read about.
Absolutely.

All these characters got these personalities we all think are so damn kick ass at the same moment they got their powers. Sure, Pete was a brilliant science wiz kid before, but being Spider-Man boosted all that up to a new level. Same with Tony Stark, really.

So in the Marvel Universe "powers" obviously equals "personality".

[Mainline]

If we got to see the inner workings of the marvel legislative process you may be able to argue how this would have worked in the marvelverse and have had a point, but as it stands you don't...
Wow, you realize you completely undermined your argument with this right? Your same claims of treason and rebellion only apply if we know the inner workings of the legislative process. As it stands, we've seen REPEATEDLY, heroes clearing their own names by defying the law and arrest, and by contrast NEVER seen Captain America executed for treason for past rebellions.

You don't even have a leg to stand on!

[Mainline]

Well, not really. I understand Cap completely. The reason why he became a hero in the first place was his deep desire to defend the fundamental rights of this country. Thus, while I understand what he is saying, doesn't mean I have to agree with him.Nothing so nebulous, it comes down to a society that runs on trust as opposed to paranoia. You don't drive an armored tank and you don't live in constant fear of the cars in the opposite lane swerving randomly into yours.

[Bobster777]

Nothing so nebulous, it comes down to a society that runs on trust as opposed to paranoia. You don't drive an armored tank and you don't live in constant fear of the cars in the opposite lane swerving randomly into yours.
I don't see this as a paranoia issue. Stamford wasn't just some little incident. Hundreds of people died. Why is it wrong for people to react to that? Do many of those incidents have to happen before people should do something? I'm not saying the law is perfect, as we have seen so far. However, there is nothing wrong with the public wanting some accountability.

[Mainline]

There's nothing wrong with wanting security either, but execution is the issue... does one go about raising taxes to put concrete barriers between all car lanes because of the inevitable head on collisions that happen with more frequency and to greater death toll (than Stamford) for the sake of said security?

The approach taken is rather ridiculous for the ends desired... much like a nail-clipper ban.

[Bobster777]

There's nothing wrong with wanting security either, but execution is the issue... does one go about raising taxes to put concrete barriers between all car lanes because of the inevitable head on collisions that happen with more frequency and to greater death toll (than Stamford) for the sake of said security?

The approach taken is rather ridiculous for the ends desired... much like a nail-clipper ban.
You have to start somewhere. If later on, they find that there are flaws in the law, it will be modified. In this case, I think there will be a compromise before everything is said and done. I have no problem with the law because it was passed the right way, through lobbying and protest. But like you said, the way the law has been executed has been inefficient.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Wow, you realize you completely undermined your argument with this right? Your same claims of treason and rebellion only apply if we know the inner workings of the legislative process. As it stands, we've seen REPEATEDLY, heroes clearing their own names by defying the law and arrest, and by contrast NEVER seen Captain America executed for treason for past rebellions.

You don't even have a leg to stand on!

Point. However,

trea·son ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trzn)
n.

Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

Cap works for the US government, military specifically, he is not a private citizen. These other people evading law to clear themselves prior to civil war, were not enemy combatants, they would simply be vigilantee's, whose legality in the marvelverse previously was not in question. In this case, there is no chance he can clear his name, he is actively participating in open rebellion against his government..that is treason. Peace Sign.

[Jamescush]

Well after all of the New York Time leaks I'm changing to Caps view.:o

[StoneGold]

Cap works for the US government, military specifically, he is not a private citizen.
No he doesn't. That's what Gruenwald's whole Captain arc was about. The closest Cap comes to working for the government is a freelance contract with SHIELD. Which isn't the government. Maybe. And before anyone complains again, the lines have never been straight on that.

In any case, Cap hasn't had any government ties since the late 80s.

[Brandon McKinnis]

No he doesn't. That's what Gruenwald's whole Captain arc was about. The closest Cap comes to working for the government is a freelance contract with SHIELD. Which isn't the government. Maybe. And before anyone complains again, the lines have never been straight on that.

In any case, Cap hasn't had any government ties since the late 80s.


Ok, then, that I actually can't argue.

[Loestal]

No he doesn't. That's what Gruenwald's whole Captain arc was about. The closest Cap comes to working for the government is a freelance contract with SHIELD. Which isn't the government. Maybe. And before anyone complains again, the lines have never been straight on that.

In any case, Cap hasn't had any government ties since the late 80s.


SHIELD is UN funded and is their military so-to-speak isn't it?

[Bobster777]

SHIELD is UN funded and is their military so-to-speak isn't it?
Huh, this is the big question. It's weird that SHIELD is the premeire U.S. military force if it is funded by the UN. On a side note, if SHIELD is a UN institution, then they were right in confiscating the crystals from the Inhumans since it presented a security risk for the entire world (well, that can be their reasoning if they ever had to defend the action).

[Mainline]

Huh, this is the big question. It's weird that SHIELD is the premeire U.S. military force if it is funded by the UN. On a side note, if SHIELD is a UN institution, then they were right in confiscating the crystals from the Inhumans since it presented a security risk for the entire world (well, that can be their reasoning if they ever had to defend the action).

My understanding is that SHIELD is purely American... they were once International when the acronym stood for: Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division

But now it's an American run division standing for: Strategic Hazard Intervention, Espionage and Logistics Directorate

As such, they do NOT get United Nations funding, however, because the USA is part of the UN, they are required to assist in UN interests at times... but again, the United Nations has no more authority over SHIELD than it has over the USA indirectly.

[Iron-boy]

Even tough i love Iron Man and his comic book, i have to go with Captain America.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Normally, I would side with Cap, but I haven't seen the Pro side pull any war atrocities yet, if things get out of hand and we see Tony torture people, then well...i'll flip-flop.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Cap is an active combatant though (Shown CW #2), he's not only refusing orders but attacking out right. He has started a rebellion and is actively fighting against his higher ups (Not only idealogical mind you but physically), I'd say these are pretty blatant breaches of the law as it is.


You messed up. He didn't attack those SHIELD agents as an act of war, he did it to save the Young Avengers. It was a rescue mission, a defensive approach. If they had destroyed a few SHIELD buildings or something, then I would agree, but that is not the case.

[Brandon McKinnis]

You messed up. He didn't attack those SHIELD agents as an act of war, he did it to save the Young Avengers. It was a rescue mission, a defensive approach. If they had destroyed a few SHIELD buildings or something, then I would agree, but that is not the case.

I understand his motives, however, the young avengers were in breach of the law. Cap and Falcon are both fugitives, this was essentially a jail break.

One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist right?

I'm not calling Cap a terrorist mind you, it's just a saying, but I still think he's guilty of treason. I've essentially been playing devil's advocate most of this thread. Look at my quote's(Signatures), I'm not exactly overflowing with american spirit. I do understand what Cap is trying to do, however, I also understand how it would be viewed by the publlic. That is my point.

[blackdragon6]

it seems to me that captain and iron man would be on the opposite sides of this conflict but...eh whater i'll go with captain america.

[Conn Seanery]

Just a reminder to folks, since their Civil War actions seem to be affecting some people's choices:

Okay, let's forget about what sides they stand for a moment. What I want to know is, if you had to chose one to be your leader, who would you chose?

Iron Man has the powerful suit, incredible intellect and wealth, and connections to some of the most powerful people in the world.

Cap is the greatest military mind there is, his presence is inspirational, and he'll never let you down.

Who do you follow?

[Brandon McKinnis]

Just a reminder to folks, since their Civil War actions seem to be affecting some people's choices:

In that context, Cap obviously.

[Sandy Hausler]

Okay, let's forget about what sides they stand for a moment. What I want to know is, if you had to chose one to be your leader, who would you chose?

Iron Man has the powerful suit, incredible intellect and wealth, and connections to some of the most powerful people in the world.

Cap is the greatest military mind there is, his presence is inspirational, and he'll never let you down.

Who do you follow?

Cap or the alcoholic? No contest.

Sandy Hausler

[Bobster777]

Cap or the alcoholic? No contest.

Sandy Hausler
That's kind of unfair isn't it. You take out the alcoholic thing, Iron Man is a very effective leader, both on the field and from the background. I mean, look at how he was able to round up some of the greatest minds for CW. I think Tony has the edge on charisma, but Steve definately is the more inspirational one.

[Haunt]

Cap or the alcoholic? No contest.

Sandy Hausler


Tony or the guy who was sleeping with Scarlet Witch during Disassembled?

[Jeff-E]

I'm actually going to go with Tony on this one. He has done a great job in leading the Soprano family for years now, and lets face it T, Crissy, and Sal would hand Cap his rear.

Seriously though I really would go with Ironman, but thats just because I think registration makes sense. Cap IMO has been written more and more fanatical in recent CW issues.

[Haunt]

I'm actually going to go with Tony on this one. He has done a great job in leading the Soprano family for years now, and lets face it T, Crissy, and Sal would hand Cap his rear.

Seriously though I really would go with Ironman, but thats just because I think registration makes sense. Cap IMO has been written more and more fanatical in recent CW issues.

no Vito or Big Pu&&y?

[Brandon McKinnis]

Seriously though I really would go with Ironman, but thats just because I think registration makes sense. Cap IMO has been written more and more fanatical in recent CW issues.

Exactly how I feel, I've just caught up on all of the tie-ins to Civil War and, and while IM is being extremely manipulative, I understand the logic behind his actions. Cap however, seems concerned only with maintaining stat quo, regardless of repercussions.

[Dustin]

I'd have to say Captain America. I like his opinion over the law. There is no point in having superheroes if the stupid government gets to command them. They weren't ment for that.

[Bobster777]

I'd have to say Captain America. I like his opinion over the law. There is no point in having superheroes if the stupid government gets to command them. They weren't ment for that.
I don't think it is there so the gov can command them persay. Basically, heroes will function like cops. If something is going on, they can handle the situation without really having to talk to the higher ups (they don't even have to call for back up if they don't want to). However, they'll have to answer to the gov if what they do is negligent. It's more official when it is put in writing.

[Dustin]

I don't think it is there so the gov can command them persay. Basically, heroes will function like cops. If something is going on, they can handle the situation without really having to talk to the higher ups (they don't even have to call for back up if they don't want to). However, they'll have to answer to the gov if what they do is negligent. It's more official when it is put in writing.
Whoops sorry. I guess I just kind of understood what was going on, a little differently.:o

[Bobster777]

Whoops sorry. I guess I just kind of understood what was going on, a little differently.:o
It's all Marvel's fault. I don't know why they had to be all vague about the parameters of the SHRA. I think it is just causing more of frustration than really good debate.

[Dustin]

I really wish the S.H.I.E.L.D would be a little more calm about the situation. I really don't think what happenbed should have to effect the other superheroes that had nothing to do with it.

[Bobster777]

I really wish the S.H.I.E.L.D would be a little more calm about the situation. I really don't think what happenbed should have to effect the other superheroes that had nothing to do with it.
What do you mean by calm? The American public lobbied for a law to pass, and it passed. What is SHIELD suppposed to do? Defy the will of the people? What would be the point of trying to get laws passed then? Let's just tell the gov to decide what is legal or not or for that fact, the heroes.

[Shyft]

oh Captain my Captain!

[Slade.]

cap even led the JLA!

nuff said!!

[amorn]

Strip down the iron suit and took out the super soldier serum

tony - one of the smartest guy on the planet
roger - a big buff soldier captain

sure roger will beat tony up in a fist fight, but tony is like batman he uses his brain to get ahead.

So i'm gonna go with smart guy as my leader.

[Markavian]

Captain America was Right in the Armor Wars Tony was Wrong..The Goverment needed the Lessor Versains of the Iron Man Armor to defend The Vault and Project Peguses Etc Yet Tony allowed his Ego to over come his Common Sense..Fast Forward 18 years later and Roles have been reversed: Tony is trying to protect Society and aid the Goverment in protecting society from super rampages While Cap is becoming the Outlaw:eek: so Iron man cause he is right at Least NOW he is

[spyridona]

Captain America so far in CW; he hasn’t pressured a choice from people when he’s felt the need to ask them. Iron Man sort of has.

[Bobster777]

Captain America so far in CW; he hasn’t pressured a choice from people when he’s felt the need to ask them. Iron Man sort of has.
Well, he did threaten to beat down Falcon if he didn't take off his mask. ha ha, I know he did get attacked and all before that, but he did make Falcon do something at the duress of a beat down.

[chrismileslord]

Captain America, only because Tony will use you for what he wants, and then put you on the back burner....just look at what's happening to Spider Man.

[Sandy Hausler]

Captain America was Right in the Armor Wars Tony was Wrong..The Goverment needed the Lessor Versains of the Iron Man Armor to defend The Vault and Project Peguses Etc Yet Tony allowed his Ego to over come his Common Sense..Fast Forward 18 years later and Roles have been reversed: Tony is trying to protect Society and aid the Goverment in protecting society from super rampages While Cap is becoming the Outlaw:eek: so Iron man cause he is right at Least NOW he is

I guess Tony Stark does not have a patent on the armor. He would have to file the specs at the Patent Office, so I'd say he had no legal rights to keep anyone from using versions of his armor. On the other hand, I can see why he'd be pissed . . . and worried about such a weapon falling into the wrong hands.

Sandy Hausler

[Erazmus]

The Cap, all the way baby!

[gideon]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere (if so apologies, lots to read through here), but for me, this is who Iron Man is. I was re-reading some older Iron Man's, and in the later issues of the last run, where SE was in trouble because of the dealings of Stane when they absorbed them, Iron Man was attacked by the New Warriors and Thunderstrike. Afterwards, in a talk with Cap at a resteraunt, he lamented on the state of the new hero's, and talked about how the power they have was to vast, but they lacked the understanding, control or training to use it properly and for good. Now with Civil War going on, when I read that, it was amazing to me. I know they didn't intend it then, but it really drives home that this isn't a new process for Stark, he's had these concerns for quite sometime.

[Mainline]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere (if so apologies, lots to read through here), but for me, this is who Iron Man is. I was re-reading some older Iron Man's, and in the later issues of the last run, where SE was in trouble because of the dealings of Stane when they absorbed them, Iron Man was attacked by the New Warriors and Thunderstrike. Afterwards, in a talk with Cap at a resteraunt, he lamented on the state of the new hero's, and talked about how the power they have was to vast, but they lacked the understanding, control or training to use it properly and for good. Now with Civil War going on, when I read that, it was amazing to me. I know they didn't intend it then, but it really drives home that this isn't a new process for Stark, he's had these concerns for quite sometime.Maybe. Let's not forget that Cap started out extremely young and also had a kid sidekick who died in a way that caused him to lament the youthful and the untrained. He tried to train Spider-Man in martial arts and he was deadset against the Young Avengers becoming a revisiting of the Bucky tragedy... it's not like these concerns are alien to either side, the difference is Cap felt it could be handled in-house without legislation or Big Brother stepping in. Spider-Man himself has mentored- however briefly- many a young hero starting out. Cable's lead the New Mutants and the youthful X-Force and worked at Xavier's. etc. etc.

I'm simply saying it's not the case that only Tony sees the potential problem, but the execution is where it's at. Getting back to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. Like what happened in the Fantastic Four's custody case... the spirit of protecting the children was preserved rather than the letter of the law that demanded removal from their parents' custody (the missile proved nothing except the fact THAT house was unsecure... the children could still potentially be taken away to a more secure site in observation of the letter of the law).

Fundamentally, whether a society will be one that trusts its people and expects responsibility vs. a soceity that mistrusts each other and somehow believes the government- made of those same untrustworthy people- is impervious to the same corruption.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Looking at the personalities involved:

Tony is a brilliant, brilliant guy. He's one of the best inventors in the world. He's an outstanding businessman, having used a magnificent strategic mind to build one of the biggest and most important companies in the world. He's fearless, and his armor is an astonishingly effective weapon system. He's generous and just to his friends and underlings. Unless Reed Richards or Victor von Doom is sitting at the same table, Tony is the smartest guy in the room, seeing three or four steps ahead of almost anyone else in the world. The down side of that is that he's very manipulative and can sometimes see other people as assets or pawns instead or equals and allies. He's also got the booze problem.

Steve is an amazing tactician, maybe the finest in the world, who could probably lead a troop of paraplegic Girl Scouts to victory over the Shi'ar Guard. His moral compass has been shown to be unerring, almost as though he's incapable of making an immoral decision or taking an immoral act. He's an inspirational leader like no one else in the Marvel Universe, the one guy to whom pretty much every other hero willingly cedes leadership when they work together. He never gives up, ever -- when he thinks he's right he sinks his teeth and sill stand or die defending his position. His drawbacks are that he doesn't always see the big picture in that he won't compromise his moral position to achieve a practical end (which, unpleasant as it is, you pretty much have to at some point) and his basic intellectual and moral reactions were formed fighting the Nazis -- which doesn't necessarily prepare one for success in the shades-of-gray, frequently morally ambiguous Marvel Universe.

So, which would I choose?

Cap. As he's been portrayed, it would be incredibly difficult to have Captain America tell you something and not believe it. He is inspiring, he is honest and you know that he'd have your back. He would see his troops as individual human beings, rather than the pawns Iron Man sometimes (not always) sees, and thus he would be far less likely to sacrifice you needlessly. But the biggest reason is that the Marvel Universe has shown us again and again that if you and Cap are on different sides of an argument, well, you're pretty much wrong. He is the moral center of the Marvel Universe, just like Peter Parker is its heart, and if I found myself disagreeing with Captain America on an issue of any importance, I'd be forced to reexamine my position very, very carefully to discover the inevitable error of my ways. Although Iron Man would make a worthy leader, you go against Cap at your own peril.

The brilliance of Civil War is in pitting two such paragons against each other and making you confront the biases you have. Huge kudos to Marvel for sparking this discussion.

[trojanrabbit]

What it all comes down to... A moral compass vs a prognosticator...logically I would choose to follow Iron Man.

[Dustin]

Captain America so far in CW; he hasn’t pressured a choice from people when he’s felt the need to ask them. Iron Man sort of has.
Sort of? You mean he has super-pressured them!;)

[Cavalry Tanker]

Both Cap and Iron Man are being dumb. I think, as a political allagory, we are all looking at this the wrong way.

Iron Man has one solution, Register or go to jail. Cap has one solution, don't Register, or be a government lacky.

Think about it for a second. Think about how divided our country has become, even after the British terrorist arrest, Democrats still find something wrong with the War on Terror. Meanwhile, Republicans claim Democrats are weak on the War.

It's a situation of extemes. Either with us, or the other guy. You dont have the option of being in the middle, its us or them (you saw it in FF). A or B. No none of the above.

I know Marvel is presenting a more liberal/democrat view of the war on terror, but I think a hidden position is there, even if the writers don't realize it.

Unity.

[BigBoss]

I always liked iron man. but I would probally rather have cap as my leader.

[The Golden Age Flash]

I'll go with Cap too. Heck, we're both holdovers from WWII.

Go Cap!

[jackolover]

The only argument the anti side really has is that SHIELD can't be trusted to manage the registered superhumans because the agency is corrupt. I think the pro side might win over more supporters if they focused on reforming SHIELD...

Quotes - ..another step towards government control - CA 22
Quotes - ..contradicts everything this country stands for - HFH 2

Cap made these statements above in defending his position on the registration act.

Isn't cap just out of step with the times? His mindset (1940's) makes him look like he's not one of us. I know he has his suporters like Cage, and Danny Rand, but there are others in his group who are only there because they have been isolated, and fled to cap. I wonder if cap's ideas are out of time, because of his archaic history - he cut his teeth in the second world war, and gained his values from those times. Cap is just one guy, with one opinion, on a subject too big for his sensibilities.

Unless cap can illucidate what is so wrong with a law, that has been conceived by the representatives of the people, I can't see him gaining any support. Unless cap were to find a specific corruption in government that is using the SHRA to ferment chaos, to advantage the corrupt elements, then cap has no place to go.

It's starting to look like cap and the anti-regs are just grumblers, who behave as though they are spoiled kids, because they weren't consulted about the SHRA. While IM's side is moving along, quite positively, towards the goal of the Initiative. The anti-regs are only just an annoying hiccup to registration, because cap is not trying to sabotage the SHRA.

[kidpernicious]

Think about it for a second. Think about how divided our country has become, even after the British terrorist arrest, Democrats still find something wrong with the War on Terror. Meanwhile, Republicans claim Democrats are weak on the War.
Obviously this wasn't the focus of your comment, but I do want to make it clear, it may be somewhat misleading and ambiguous to say Democrats find something wrong with the War on Terror. Dems don't outright oppose the War on Terror, they're opposed to how the War on Terror is being fought by the current administration.

A difference Republicans tend to gloss over in constantly portraying the Dems, as you've said, weak on the War. Very annoying.

Edit: Looking over this, I'm seriously splitting hairs and doing so off-topic.

Oops.

[BigDuke]

Cap has values that he lives by. He believes in something bigger than himself and that everyone is important in some way.

IM has situation values. His values change to suit the situation he is in to his advantage. Giving me a car my be to his advantage today to get me on his side. Throwing me in the Neg Zone might be to his advantage tomorrow.

Give me Cap every day of the week and twice on Wednesday (when comics come out)!

[Agent Helix]

Cap.

Because what it all comes down to is the fact that he'll go up against Godzilla while wearing pirate boots and little wings on his head.

That's gumption.

[jackolover]

Cap has values that he lives by. He believes in something bigger than himself and that everyone is important in some way.

IM has situation values. His values change to suit the situation he is in to his advantage. Giving me a car my be to his advantage today to get me on his side. Throwing me in the Neg Zone might be to his advantage tomorrow.

Give me Cap every day of the week and twice on Wednesday (when comics come out)!

Cap has this iconic presence but he's a man nevertheless. And any man's views can be tempered with error. I look at caps views as just being scepticism. The Registration isn't a war because there is no enemy, just an ideal.

I don't think Tony Stark does any of this (SHRA and the Initiative) to gain himself advantage. I say it is within character for a man protected in an iron suit to behave in a protective manner for himself, but he never went into the SHRA to get power for powers sake. You can see from the self doubts that Tony is not behaving like Kang or Doctor Doom. He genuinely feels this act is good for the superhero community.

So I would still follow Iron Man.

[LongTimeReaderBR]

Normally, I would side with Cap, but I haven't seen the Pro side pull any war atrocities yet, if things get out of hand and we see Tony torture people, then well...i'll flip-flop.

I may be mistaken, but in Ms. Marvel 8 we have some pretty sad scenes with a captured hero (Max Coleridge) done by Tony´s team. I don´t know if you´d call that torture, but it appeared that way to me.

[Alan2099]

I don't think Tony Stark does any of this (SHRA and the Initiative) to gain himself advantage. I say it is within character for a man protected in an iron suit to behave in a protective manner for himself, but he never went into the SHRA to get power for powers sake. You can see from the self doubts that Tony is not behaving like Kang or Doctor Doom. He genuinely feels this act is good for the superhero community.

So I would still follow Iron Man.
Bad example. Dr. Doom does what he does because the genuinely thinks the world would be better off with him ruling it.

Ironman is pushing towards an idea that he suposedly thought up years ago and isn't willing to change that idea even when both he and the world around him has.

[jackolover]

Bad example. Dr. Doom does what he does because the genuinely thinks the world would be better off with him ruling it.

Granted. Self delusionment can cloud your judgement, so Victors certainty that what he does is good for everyone, may have some component in Tonys certainty, also. I would have difficulty trying to argue Tony's conviction for the SHRA is more ethical that Victors conviction. But I suppose it's horses for courses. Doom rules after an Apocalypse. Iron Man rules after a revision. You don't need an Iron fist for the CW, just a good administration.

Ironman is pushing towards an idea that he suposedly thought up years ago and isn't willing to change that idea even when both he and the world around him has.

I don't think the world has changed, from when he had the idea to start with, and Tony's essential character is still the same, despite the foibles of Extremis. I still think the idea of the SHRA is very current, considering Tony didn't thrust it on the community. The government forced it on the SH's, but Tony just worked with it. If you're talking about the Initiative, then I have to have an open mind, till it falls apart.

[Haunt]

Tony's for real change. he's proactive. he's the people's champ. give me Tony Stark!

[bulbasteve]

Ironman is pushing towards an idea that he suposedly thought up years ago and isn't willing to change that idea even when both he and the world around him has.

His idea from the Illuminati days is nowhere close to what the FSI is, heck it didn't even have anything to do with the government at all.

I'm not really sure what you mean by Iron Man changing his mind and still pusing for the idea. Since again the strategy changed, he is obviously still not pushing for the system in Illuminati...since...he isn't shown doing that ever.

And the world around him woke up and went WITH his idea, the people aren't at odds with Iron Man at all.

[Haunt]

Captain America has no plan! that is all.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Captain America has no plan! that is all.

Exactly...if cap were to win then what? He would have to defeat all the pro-reg heroes, SHIELD, and topple the US gov't....is he becoming Captain Amerikkka post Civil War?