Folks that should never, ever be Avengers, ever

[JulianPerez]

SQUIRREL GIRL
As much as I like the character, she suffers from "Howard the Duck" syndrome: while I can accept on a theoretical level that she exists in the Marvel Universe along with the Cosmic Cube and Namor the Sub-Mariner, if you place a character from her surreal world side-by-side something as central to the Marvel Universe proper as the Avengers, and our brains just shut down. I can accept in her own humor book that Squirrel Girl can defeat Thanos, the Mandarin, Dr. Doom...but put her right beside Iron Man and the Black Widow and the two ideas can't coexist. Squirrel Girl belongs in the Avengers as well as Howard the Duck does.

DOCTOR STRANGE
This guy is a bad idea for Avengers membership for all sorts of reasons and I have zero idea why people keep pitching him for the team. For one thing, Doctor Strange has a lot more history with the dynamic of the Defenders, a "non-team" where a non-team player would be at home. Furthermore, the Avengers are not only a team, but also a team of superheroes. And the fact is, Doctor Strange is only a superhero by proximity to the Marvel Universe. Place him in any other context, he becomes a regular wizard or adventure character.

WOLVERINE
Yes, I know he already "is" an Avenger (bleh), but he was a bad choice then and a bad choice now. The fact of the matter is, the reason that was given for Wolverine being "begged" by Tony Stark to join the Avengers, just doesn't make any sense. They picked him because Wolverine is results-oriented. Here's the thing: there are plenty of other, more established Avengers that have history with the team that are results-oriented types with checkered, espionage centered backgrounds; there was no reason to pick Wolverine AT ALL. The Black Widow springs immediately to mind: hell, her first outing with the Avengers, didn't she threaten to kill a Ixar to release the team?

[Carlton Donaghe]

When I saw the topic, I immediately thought, "Wolverine."

I agree with your list. I do think they'd all make great Defenders, though (except, I have no idea who Squirrel Girl is. Howard I know).

I'd also add Spider-Man to the list. And Storm.

[Haunt]

DOCTOR STRANGE
This guy is a bad idea for Avengers membership for all sorts of reasons and I have zero idea why people keep pitching him for the team. For one thing, Doctor Strange has a lot more history with the dynamic of the Defenders, a "non-team" where a non-team player would be at home. Furthermore, the Avengers are not only a team, but also a team of superheroes. And the fact is, Doctor Strange is only a superhero by proximity to the Marvel Universe. Place him in any other context, he becomes a regular wizard or adventure character.


all that means is that he's more suited to be a reservist. he wouldn't be the first loner to join the team (or the first Defender, for that matter). Zatanna's a sorceress and does just fine when she's part of the JLA.

anyways, characters who i don't think would fit:

Cyclops
Punisher
any of the GLA
Ghost Rider

[The Shadow]

Cyclops
Punisher
any of the GLA
Ghost Rider
Dardevil as well.

As to the Spidey thing... he's got such an established history with the Avengers going waaaaaaay back to Avengers #11 to being a reserve member that his inclusion shouldn't have taken this long.

As for Wolverine... he's not the first mutant nor the first X-Man to join up... so I don't see the problem there. The whole "he's a killer" thing doesn't fly either as the Avengers have other guys that have killed (Captain America for instance) along with former terrorists, thieves and street thugs.

[Jake V]

Aside from guys who've attempted to commit genocide like Thanos or something, I don't think there should be any restrictions on who can be an Avenger, given that all they are is a group of Superheroes who team up to fight enemies that they couldn't handle on their own.

[Bobster777]

Yeah, I vote for Wolverine too. My feeling is, if your going to be an Avenger, you should want to be on the team. I remember after the whole Heroes Reborn thing and they were forming the new team, Justice wanted so bad to be an Avenger. However, the best he got was just back up member. The only reason why Wolverine is on the team is because of the money Tony is shelling out. That's why I never liked him being on the team.

[JulianPerez]

Aside from guys who've attempted to commit genocide like Thanos or something, I don't think there should be any restrictions on who can be an Avenger, given that all they are is a group of Superheroes who team up to fight enemies that they couldn't handle on their own.

With respect, I disagree. The Avengers have an identity and a group dynamic that transcends just "people teaming up." The Avengers are team-centered. If Hawkeye or the Wasp sees a problem their first instinct is to go behind a corner, hit the communicard and get help (unlike the Defenders or Justice League, whose first instinct would be to solve the problem themselves), and further and more importantly, the Avengers have a great, rich history that just can't be disregarded.

Why have Gilgamesh, for instance, on a team when someone with as much history and connections to the other characters as Wonder Man is available?

As for Wolverine... he's not the first mutant nor the first X-Man to join up... so I don't see the problem there. The whole "he's a killer" thing doesn't fly either as the Avengers have other guys that have killed (Captain America for instance) along with former terrorists, thieves and street thugs.

Ahhh, good old Shadow. Anyone disagreeing with Bendis, that's like flashing the Batsignal for you, isn't it?

That's precisely my point - other Avengers would have been a much more appropriate slot than (my God) Wolverine. If you want an athletic, pragmatic results-oriented character, how about Black Window? If you want a loner or an iconoclast, how about Hawkeye?

I think you're ignoring a few other things. The objection to Wolverine is NOT that he is a killer. There may be many good reasons why someone like Hawkeye, who has killed, or Black Widow, who has a killer instinct, would make great Avengers, which do NOT apply to Wolverine. For instance: history with the group, their relationships and connections to the other characters (Hawkeye's frienships with Wanda and Captain America, Black Widow's former love affair with Hawkeye).

[Jake V]

Why have Gilgamesh, for instance, on a team when someone with as much history and connections to the other characters as Wonder Man is available?
Maybe a story can be told with Gilgamesh that can't be told with Wonder Man.

This is why I never say never. I'm interested in what sorts of stories that can be told when Wolverine, for instance, is teamed with these other, very different characters. I'm not all that interested in things happening just for the sake of history.

[Jake V]

I think you're ignoring a few other things. The objection to Wolverine is NOT that he is a killer. There may be many good reasons why someone like Hawkeye, who has killed, or Black Widow, who has a killer instinct, would make great Avengers, which do NOT apply to Wolverine. For instance: history with the group, their relationships and connections to the other characters (Hawkeye's frienships with Wanda and Captain America, Black Widow's former love affair with Hawkeye).
Well, see, at one point, Hawkeye or Black Widow had NO history with the team. At what point did we decide to only play with the tools the past gave us instead of making our own new tools?

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, see, at one point, Hawkeye or Black Widow had NO history with the team. At what point did we decide to only play with the tools the past gave us instead of making our own new tools?


You, sir, win "quote of the day".

Your prize...a brand new car!

If it's not in your driveway next time you go outside, then somebody stole it.


SEAN

[DoubleShot]

The Avengers are supposed to be earths mightiest heroes. That being said I don't see why Wolverine can't be an Avenger except peoples hatred for him for showing up everywhere. Not a good enough excuse. If you compare him to other Avengers like, say, Triatholon I don't see how Wolverine is not better. And I don't care if they were forced to take Triatholon there are other Avengers you could name.

Doctor Strange would actually bring other types of threats to the Avengers book. The team hasn't had a mystical presense in a very long time and I don't think since Dr. Druid (Scarlet Witch doesn't count). I think it's long past time that everyone stops thinking of Doctor Strange ONLY being with the Defenders if he's part of a team.

Squirrel Girl I have no idea why she even is being brought up.

[Sean Whitmore]

Squirrel Girl I have no idea why she even is being brought up.


Running gag that's becoming dangerously close to taking on a life of its own.


SEAN

[Jack]

Hmmm, in the future, when I'm writing Avengers, I shall have a team with all of these people on it. Because.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Vixen, Gypsy, Steel, and Vibe.

[Young Avenger]

Knowing that D-Man was a former Avenger, I don't think it would be fair to said which characters are Avengers material or not. If someone as lame as D-Man can be an Avenger than I'll accept anyone as an Avenger.

[Sean Whitmore]

Vixen, Gypsy, Steel, and Vibe.


No love for Vive?

Por que......???!!!

:p


SEAN

[StoneGold]

No love for Vive?

Por que......???!!!

:p


SEAN
Apparently, not enough for you to copy edit your work...

[Sean Whitmore]

Apparently, not enough for you to copy edit your work...


That's...um...just what I call him. We're tight like that.


SEAN

[Edward J Cunningham]

SQUIRREL GIRL
WOLVERINE
Yes, I know he already "is" an Avenger (bleh), but he was a bad choice then and a bad choice now. The fact of the matter is, the reason that was given for Wolverine being "begged" by Tony Stark to join the Avengers, just doesn't make any sense. They picked him because Wolverine is results-oriented. Here's the thing: there are plenty of other, more established Avengers that have history with the team that are results-oriented types with checkered, espionage centered backgrounds; there was no reason to pick Wolverine AT ALL. The Black Widow springs immediately to mind: hell, her first outing with the Avengers, didn't she threaten to kill a Ixar to release the team?

Wolverine---despite how much certain fans hate him---is one of if not THE most popular character in the Marvel Universe. That's reason enough for him to be on the Avengers, and sales have borne this out.

Eddie Cunningham

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/eddiejc1/New_Fem_Four.gif (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/femfour/)

[Siddon]

Strange is such a rich character with so much potential and so sadly underused I would say making him an Avenger is second only to giving him a MAX book in the hall of good ideas.

[JulianPerez]

all that means is that he's more suited to be a reservist.

Well, absolutely - the Avengers ought to have a character like Doctor Strange on their speed-dial, but that's not quite the same thing as having him on the cover, right next to Thor and Wonder Man, shouting "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!"

This is why I never say never. I'm interested in what sorts of stories that can be told when Wolverine, for instance, is teamed with these other, very different characters. I'm not all that interested in things happening just for the sake of history.

You're missing my point. My point is that the Avengers have acquired their own identity as a superhero team based on group dynamic and on interconnectivity and friendships between the members. One does not tell a good Spider-Man story set in space, because that is not what Spider-Man's stories are about. Likewise, one does not tell a good Avengers story with loners or with inappropriate characters such as Wolverine or Doctor Strange.

Well, see, at one point, Hawkeye or Black Widow had NO history with the team. At what point did we decide to only play with the tools the past gave us instead of making our own new tools?

Because the Avengers are not just a team book with a blank history and rotating membership, an Outer Limits style superhero anthology. They have a definite "type" of story (the giant epic tale, e.g. the Thanos War, Celestial Madonna, Kree/Skrull Wars), they have a sense of gravitas, a gravitas given when history is used. This is why the Ultimate Universe will never be as interesting, immersive or detailed as the mainstream Marvel books: characters are the sum of their histories, not just costumes and codenames or a face slapped on a beach towel.

In other words, there IS right way and a wrong way to tell an Avengers story.

This is actually a fairly intriguing topic. Yes, at one point Hawkeye and Black Widow had no history with the team, BUT at the same time, there are other factors that they possess that Wolverine does not that make them good choices.

There is a point where the identities of characters and groups are flexible. After they have been established for years and years, this wiggle room is gone, because we KNOW who a character is, what they've done, and how they behave. For instance, if Gardner Fox wanted to establish that the Flash had a twin brother that was evil, he could certainly have done so in the 1950s-1960s...but this same thing could NOT be done in the 1990s without seriously stretching suspension of disbelief. Don Blake in one of his early appearances built a fully-functioning android - something that he could never do today. And so forth.

People that enjoy the presence of non-Avengers material like Wolverine and Spider-Man on the Avengers team are always the first to point out the team that came in the second or third year with Captain America, and three former reformed Super-Villains.

But the comparison between Cap's Qwartet and the Bendisvengers fails for several reasons. 1) it was done in the early days of the Avengers when the team's identity was more malleable, and 2) despite the fact the roster was different, the stories were still recognizably AVENGERS stories: Attuma showed up to battle them, there was an emphasis on escapes using loopholes in traps and little-known powers,

Knowing that D-Man was a former Avenger, I don't think it would be fair to said which characters are Avengers material or not. If someone as lame as D-Man can be an Avenger than I'll accept anyone as an Avenger.

If your point was to say that D-Man would make a lousy Avenger, and so it doesn't really matter what Avengers choices are made, you are enacting the "cookie jar" defense. You got your hand stuck in the cookie jar - but that doesn't matter, because BOBBY took cookies too!

And for the record, D-Man, despite the jokes, is a very sympathetic and heroic character, and was played as such when he was written by Kurt Busiek, where Jarvis remarked that with him, "heroism comes in all forms."

D-Man WAS Avengers material. He was a team player that wanted to be on the team, he was an ally and friend of Captain America (that's one connection there - not as many as, say, the Scarlet Witch undoubtedly has, but that's one more than Wolverine has), and he had a great sense of Avengers identity: during the battle in Morgan's World, he was one of the few with enough Avengers spirit to "awaken" during the second battle.

Wolverine---despite how much certain fans hate him---is one of if not THE most popular character in the Marvel Universe. That's reason enough for him to be on the Avengers, and sales have borne this out.

Where to begin on how wrong this argument is.

First: why does someone being popular mean that character is automatically entitled to being an Avenger? There have been characters that have been great for the team, that have been popular Avengers, and others that have been unpopular.

Second: how does something being popular make it any good in terms of quality? (HOW much money did ARMAGEDDON make at the box office?) How can something making money be pointed to as being "proof" it's a good creative decision?

Finally, I dispute the entire premise of this argument: Wolverine is popular? He's gotten hate mail since the Cockrum/Wein days and been a divisive figure in fandom. "Controversial" is a better term.

[Brian R]

Dardevil as well.

As to the Spidey thing... he's got such an established history with the Avengers going waaaaaaay back to Avengers #11 to being a reserve member that his inclusion shouldn't have taken this long.

As for Wolverine... he's not the first mutant nor the first X-Man to join up... so I don't see the problem there. The whole "he's a killer" thing doesn't fly either as the Avengers have other guys that have killed (Captain America for instance) along with former terrorists, thieves and street thugs.

My problem with Wolvie wasnt the whole "He's a killer" non-sense, its that I never bought the way he was bribed into joining the team. The X-Men are like family to Logan, but what do the Avengers mean to him? Nothing. And the BS about him caring about what the general public thinks of him is completely out of character in my opinion.

Still, its cool seeing him interact with the rest of the team, and he is a character that I like, so its not as bad as I had originally thought.

[Brian R]

Wolverine---despite how much certain fans hate him---is one of if not THE most popular character in the Marvel Universe. That's reason enough for him to be on the Avengers, and sales have borne this out.

Eddie Cunningham



Ok, but think of it this way: If you cant get a book with Cap, Iron Man, and Spidey to sell then you are doing something wrong. I mean, if the team was the same but sans-Logan, you really think the sales would drop dramatically? I dont think so, not as long as Bendis is writing it and top-notch artists are drawing it.

[Coolrush]

Aside from guys who've attempted to commit genocide like Thanos or something, I don't think there should be any restrictions on who can be an Avenger, given that all they are is a group of Superheroes who team up to fight enemies that they couldn't handle on their own.

I agree with this. History and Tradition shouldnt matter so much. All that should matter is getting a group of willing people who can work together and get the job done.

[Clint Barton]

Dick Cheney should never, ever be an Avenger.

[Alan2099]

I draw the line at including Carnage or The Living Tribunal as being Avengers.

Dr. Doom is okay though. To me, as long as you can tell an intresting story with the people, they have a place on the team.

Granted, Wolverine so far hasn't had an intresting story involving the team, but then again, there are plenty of other Avengers who haven't either.

[1WEBHEAD]

As much as I like Deadpool and Cable, they should never become Avengers. Same goes for Spidey,Logan and The Fantastic 4.

[Sean Whitmore]

Dick Cheney should never, ever be an Avenger.


Hey, the team needs a sharpshooter what with Hawkeye gone.


SEAN

[Bobster777]

Hey, the team needs a sharpshooter what with Hawkeye gone.


SEAN
Ha ha, that's the thing though. Instead of hitting the bad guys, he'll end up taking out his own teammates. :D

[Tommy]

Wolverine shouldn't be an Avenger because it violates his own identity. What happened to Wolverine the sullen aloof loner that only young girls could break through to? Now I never particularly liked him in that, but that was what he was. And as such he should barely belong on one X-team let alone three and the Avengers.

Now if you had a good reason to use him it might be a different story. However neither Wolverine nor Spider-man has had any point to being a member of the New Avengers except to offer the occasional quips. And they aren't doing that any more.

If you were going to pick an X-man with few ties to the Avengers I would go with Jean Grey. She is a best friend with Beast (who should be an Avenger and not an X-man since the X-men don't know how to use him), which is a pretty good start.

Secondly she is pretty powerful, knows when to be a leader and when to follow, and has been screwed over by the X-men enough times that she could conceivably take a break and move to the Avengers.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Why do people keep b*tching about this? There should be absolutely no restrictions on membership. There could very well be a time when the avengers need Ghost Rider, but 40 year old fans would rather see the same boring ass line up issue after issue...sorry folks that's lame.

[LordEd1976]

Here's my choice of people who shouldnt be on the team:

Punisher
Ghost Rider (and that goes for both Ketch and Blaze AND guys like Vengeance.)
Cable
Deadpool (or any member or ally of X-Force that matter.)
Howard the Duck (works better on his own or as a guest star when appropriate.)
Daredevil (same reason as Howard)

[The Mirrorball Man]

I draw the line at including Carnage or The Living Tribunal as being Avengers.
Yep. Unless they're on the team at the same time. Then it's ok.

[LordEd1976]

Why do people keep b*tching about this? There should be absolutely no restrictions on membership. There could very well be a time when the avengers need Ghost Rider, but 40 year old fans would rather see the same boring ass line up issue after issue...sorry folks that lame.

For your information, Julain and I are both in our 20s.

You wanna back up your claim for no restrictions? or do you want to be the guy whose function in this forum is to make such "intelligent" comments as "your all lame." and "Wolverine rules and if you don't like in the team, your lame."? At least there are other people here who are using the brains God gave them and not acting like a child.

You say that there maybe a time when the Avengers need a guy like Ghost Rider on the team? Back it up. Act like a lawyer or Sherlock Holmes and give us some proof.

[DDM]

Why do people keep b*tching about this? There should be absolutely no restrictions on membership. There could very well be a time when the avengers need Ghost Rider, but 40 year old fans would rather see the same boring ass line up issue after issue...sorry folks that lame.

The Avengers is a public organization. Membership is a privledge. Therefore, not just any person can join the Avengers. The Bendisvengers flagrantly ignore the Avengers code.

[Will.S]

Because the Avengers are not just a team book with a blank history and rotating membership, an Outer Limits style superhero anthology. They have a definite "type" of story (the giant epic tale, e.g. the Thanos War, Celestial Madonna, Kree/Skrull Wars), they have a sense of gravitas, a gravitas given when history is used. This is why the Ultimate Universe will never be as interesting, immersive or detailed as the mainstream Marvel books: characters are the sum of their histories, not just costumes and codenames or a face slapped on a beach towel.
Common sense dictates:

1) The Ultimate Universe has only been around for 6 or 7 years so it logically it can't produce that same amount of volume as the 616 one unless there were multiple creative teams.

2) The Ultimates make their own history where other future stories will draw upon when eventually and when neccessary.

I don't find anything in the Ultimates any less interesting than 616 because it doesn't draw upon the same Avengers histories as the 616 versions nor are the stories by Millar any less epic and same goes for the New Avengers. Having history and comraderie is one thing, being a slave to it is another.

[Sean Whitmore]

The Bendisvengers flagrantly ignore the Avengers code.


What? How?


SEAN

[Tommy]

What? How?
Well back in Avengers (vol. 1) issue 217 Thor told Iron Man that there would NEVER be two Avengers named after the same insect on the same team as an Avenger named after a hairy animal that likes to pee on things. That is why DDM hates the New Avengers.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well back in Avengers (vol. 1) issue 217 Thor told Iron Man that there would NEVER be two Avengers named after the same insect on the same team as an Avenger named after a hairy animal that likes to pee on things. That is why DDM hates the New Avengers.


Well hell, now I hate them too.


SEAN

[The Mirrorball Man]

Well back in Avengers (vol. 1) issue 217 Thor told Iron Man that there would NEVER be two Avengers named after the same insect on the same team as an Avenger named after a hairy animal that likes to pee on things. That is why DDM hates the New Avengers.
Yeah but the official legal loophole is that spiders are not insects.

[Sean Whitmore]

Yeah but the official legal loophole is that spiders are not insects.


That's just one of Joe Quesada's filthy lies.


SEAN

[Siddon]

The Avengers is a public organization. Membership is a privledge. Therefore, not just any person can join the Avengers. The Bendisvengers flagrantly ignore the Avengers code.


Y'know I am starting to think you don't like Bendis. I think Wolverine makes more sense then the Hulk at least no idiot would put the HULK on the Avengers. Any moron who put the HULK on the avengers must be such a bad writer that history should forget his name.

[JulianPerez]

Here's my choice of people who shouldnt be on the team:

Punisher

Here's my problem with the Punisher. I do like him as a character (particularly during the PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL period - a macho book with hair on its chest, done by Chuck Dixon? Baby, I'm THERE!), however, he doesn't belong in team-ups with characters like Spider-Man. If Spider-Man and Punisher part ways, and Spidey lets a guy like that, a known killer, get off Scot Free, it would be completely dishonest to Spidey's character.

Ghost Rider (and that goes for both Ketch and Blaze AND guys like Vengeance.)

Really? I don't know if Ghost Rider is Avengers material since he's a little scary and grotesque, but nothing about him strikes me as suggesting he might not be inappropriate for a team where that's not a factor. For instance, his old team, the Champions, or perhaps the Defenders.

Cable

I've got to second this one for sure. Jesus Christ, is this guy even still around?

The Avengers is a public organization. Membership is a privledge. Therefore, not just any person can join the Avengers. The Bendisvengers flagrantly ignore the Avengers code.

Good point, DDM. What happened to the Avengers clearing their members with the government? Sure, vouching for reformed super-villains is one thing, but Uncle Sam a-okaying a potential public relations nightmare like Wolverine is quite another. Remember the suspicion that swept through the group when the Black Widow, who was believed to still be a Commie Spy, was a-okayed?

(I keep returning to the example of the Black Widow, because she would be an excellent choice that was ignored because the writer couldn't bother himself with researching history, and would much rather trend-troll with an overexposed character than use one with a connection to the book. The current Avengers direction involves intrigue and espionage, right? Well, where's the Black Widow in all of this? When the Avengers fought the god-level "Eighth Day" enemies, the first guy they called was Hercules. Considering some of the characters on the Avengers roster, from the animalistic Beast, Panther, Hellcat, Silverclaw, and Tigra to the former espionage agent, Ms. Marvel and the former cat-burglar Scott Lang, Wolverine is a redundancy of ridiculous proportions. He adds nothing the Avengers didn't already have. NOTHING.)

Granted, this is a small problem and if it was good writers with good choices (such as Roger Stern's undexpected, idiosyncratic but surprisingly effective choice of Namor, the Sub-Mariner) it wouldn't matter so much. But the problem with a lot of the recent choices is, it's MANY, MANY little things of this nature that the writer can't bother himself with.

Wolverine shouldn't be an Avenger because it violates his own identity. What happened to Wolverine the sullen aloof loner that only young girls could break through to?

I think you just identified the emotional core of the character and why a lot of people, particularly fangirls, find him interesting. If Wolverine was used THAT way, perhaps it may be fun to watch (tough guy with a heart of gold), but even here, he's not doing much to show that he's a nice guy underneath all the animal stuff. There are many cute little Avengers girls that the frosty Wolverine can open up to - Silverclaw comes readily to mind.

[The Mirrorball Man]

That's just one of Joe Quesada's filthy lies.
I know! He even retconned insects as being this totally lame "six legs only" club!

[Tommy]

Yeah but the official legal loophole is that spiders are not insects.
Yes, but Thor’s INTENTION was clearly to prevent an Animal themed voting block from forming. This backs up how in Avengers 123 Thor mentions how he would not allow Hellcat to join as long as Wasp and Ant Man were still around. Thus temporarily causing Ant Man to change his name to Giant Man.

[Sean Whitmore]

If Spider-Man and Punisher part ways, and Spidey lets a guy like that, a known killer, get off Scot Free, it would be completely dishonest to Spidey's character.


He and Daredevil have let Punisher go free many, many, many times, and it's always left me scratching my head afterwards. I mean, it was one thing when he was first introduced and using "mercy bullets", but once he started killing people it became ridiculous.


Good point, DDM. What happened to the Avengers clearing their members with the government?


Sometimes they're government-sanctioned, and other times not. In their current incarnation, they're just a group of guys that teamed up, so nobody had to get anyone's permission about anything.


SEAN

[The Mirrorball Man]

Yes, but Thor’s INTENTION was clearly to prevent an Animal themed voting block from forming. This backs up how in Avengers 123 Thor mentions how he would not allow Hellcat to join as long as Wasp and Ant Man were still around. Thus temporarily causing Ant Man to change his name to Giant Man.
That got me so confused at the time! I thought he was going to turn into a giant ant!

[Brandon McKinnis]

For your information, Julain and I are both in our 20s.

You wanna back up your claim for no restrictions? or do you want to be the guy whose function in this forum is to make such "intelligent" comments as "your all lame." and "Wolverine rules and if you don't like in the team, your lame."? At least there are other people here who are using the brains God gave them and not acting like a child.

You say that there maybe a time when the Avengers need a guy like Ghost Rider on the team? Back it up. Act like a lawyer or Sherlock Holmes and give us some proof.

Since I didn't say that at all..whatever. Back what up? I don't even know who you or julian are..not to mention that I really don't care. It was a general post to everyone. It's a fictional universe therefore ANY story can accomodate these character's. Give me a GOOD reason why the Avengers could never use ghost rider but can use Triathalon. The Avengers code is non-existant as of disassembled mind you..so knowing that...why can't ghost rider be an avenger.

[The Charlatan]

Let's see, who do I think should NOT be on the Avengers... and assuming that any hero who already HAS been a member for many years gets a free pass regardless.

Most versions of the Hulk. Of course, he was one of the founding memebers, but look how long that lasted? The Professor/Merged Hulk isn't a bad choice on the surface, but he did display a strong dislike of authority on many occasians.

Most FF members. Reed and Sue did join breifly, and it worked out poorly. I don't see the Avengers putting up with some of jonny's more immature moments as well as his own family members do, but they did still have a guy like Hawkeye on the team... Thing was briefly a member of the West Coast Avengers, and maybe the best possible choice out of the four, though quite possibly redundant depending on if the Avengers have guys like Herc or Simon currently on the roster. But really, the FF need to be together in their family dynamic.

Most X-men. Again, yes, Beast was a member, and Logan currently is. I could possibly see Collossus joining, maybe partially for mutant PR, the handsome gentle giant. But for the most part, the X-Teams are focussed on Xavier's Dream, Saving The World is is still important, but not what they're really here to do.

Most loner vigilante/mystic types. Being a member of a team would merely get in the way of the personal goals they are commited to. Dr Strange Daredevil, and Moon Knight can still team up whenever they need too of course. And Blade if there's vampires.

Certain reformed villians are still not going to be Avengers material, regardless of how much they've changed. Magneto was only acceptable as an X-Man after several years soul-searching and self-doubt, and he still didn't last long. Most of the current Thunderbolts would be alright though (MACH, Songbird, R-Man, Blizzard). Will be curious to see how well Ares fits in if rumors prove true.

[DDM]

Sometimes they're government-sanctioned, and other times not. In their current incarnation, they're just a group of guys that teamed up, so nobody had to get anyone's permission about anything.


SEAN

The Avengers is a public exclusive group; it works with the US government. Cutting away the government, basically turns the Bendisvengers into The Champions of New York City or The Poor Man's Defenders. Bendis has stripped the Avengers of its core identity with his New Avengers. Brilliant!

[Alan2099]

Yep. Unless they're on the team at the same time. Then it's ok.
Agreed!

... like they're going to tell the Living Tribunal he cant join the Avengers if he wants to...

[Young Avenger]

The Avengers is a public exclusive group; it works with the US government. Cutting away the government, basically turns the Bendisvengers into The Champions of New York City or The Poor Man's Defenders. Bendis has stripped the Avengers of its core identity with his New Avengers. Brilliant!

The Avengers are a team of Marvel's greatest heroes who team up to take on challenges no single hero can handle by themselves. In that respect, the New Avengers does NOT strip them from their identity. Avengers don't need to work with the U.S government for the group to work. They can still be public without having to be the government's lapdogs.

[DDM]

The Avengers are a team of Marvel's greatest heroes who team up to take on challenges no single hero can handle by themselves. In that respect, the New Avengers does NOT strip them from their identity. Avengers don't need to work with the U.S government for the group to work. They can still be public without having to be the government's lapdogs.

As I said, becoming a member of the Avengers is a privilege. The Avengers works concurrently with the US government. Prior to the Bendisvengers, the Avengers has a US government liaison. The Avengers are paid a $1,000 a week stipend from the Maria Stark Foundation with all the health care & benefits. The Avengers go through a rigorous background check to gain access to the Avengers' mansion & the US government's computers. When Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel, joined in Avengers #183 she refused to give her fingerprints over to the US government because it would compromise her secret identity (Danvers has an extensive military background); therefore, she agreed to a retina scan since the US government could not match her retina to her fingerprints.

Otherwise, you have basically described The Champions & The Defenders.

[Siddon]

The Avengers are a team of Marvel's greatest heroes who team up to take on challenges no single hero can handle by themselves. In that respect, the New Avengers does NOT strip them from their identity. Avengers don't need to work with the U.S government for the group to work. They can still be public without having to be the government's lapdogs.

PUH LEASE if they where the greatest heros they would be known as Earth's mightiest heros and they are not they are shills for the government always where and always will be. Listen to DDM he is always right and always fair. DDM is like that nice news channel that always reports both sides of the story and doesn't allow any guff or crud or spin.

[JulianPerez]

The Avengers are a team of Marvel's greatest heroes who team up to take on challenges no single hero can handle by themselves.

No.

The Avengers have never been the Justice League. The individual members do not have to be the greatest heroes ever. They are the greatest as a team. Kurt Busiek once used the example of the Avengers being like the baseball team that wins the World Series.

In that respect, the New Avengers does NOT strip them from their identity.

No.

Well, actually, yes - if you define the Avengers as being so vague that it can describe ANY superhero team, absolutely the Bendisvengers pass the test!

What DDM is saying (and I agree with him) is that the Avengers aren't just an anthology book with popular characters thrown together for synergy. They have their own identity. And PART of that identity, part of what makes them who they ARE, is that the Avengers are high-profile enough that they are willing to play by the rules. They aren't outlaws, they aren't just guys that get together on the weekends.

Avengers don't need to work with the U.S government for the group to work. They can still be public without having to be the government's lapdogs.

No.

"Lapdog?" What a grotesque mischaracterization. Playing by the rules doesn't mean that you have to do everything that the government tells you to do. There have been many occasions that in the face of obviously tyrannical liasons like Henry Peter Gyrich, that the Avengers have had to do what they think is best even with the very real threat of censure.

At the same time, part of being the Avengers, and part of being as big as they are, is that they are OFFICIAL.

*THAT* is what makes the Avengers unique on a world full of superheroes. Before they launch their Quinjets, they have to log flight plans with the F.A.A., for instance. The Falcon for instance, was inserted as an "Affirmitive Action" member by Gyrich. They have to log their fingerprints, and they have clearance, including Captain America's "Paladin-level," that gives them access to things like Project: Pegasus.

And this aspect of the Avengers' uniqueness has been compromised. Without their "official" status, they become just another team.

[Leebenhouse]

What DDM is saying (and I agree with him) is that the Avengers aren't just an anthology book with popular characters thrown together for synergy. They have their own identity. And PART of that identity, part of what makes them who they ARE, is that the Avengers are high-profile enough that they are willing to play by the rules. They aren't outlaws, they aren't just guys that get together on the weekends.


Aye, I agree as well. With Joey Q. allowing Bendis to make the Avengers into this hybrid of the Champions/New Defenders and the Justice League it's sold out the Avengers

Luke Cage
Captain America
Spiderwoman
Spiderman
Iron Man
Wolverine
Ronin
Ms Marvel
Sentry

Gee let's see, only Ronin, who's a crappy crappy character either doesn't have or has recently had a series. The only roster worse than this is the Marvel Adventures Avengers, with token Giant-Woman and Storm for "Affirmitive Action".

I think that The Hulk would have potential, as long as he was proerly written as a totally lose cannon the team had to control.

[The Shadow]

Ahhh, good old Shadow. Anyone disagreeing with Bendis, that's like flashing the Batsignal for you, isn't it?
:D

About the same as you and Byrne's Man of Steel ;) :p

For instance: history with the group, their relationships and connections to the other characters (Hawkeye's frienships with Wanda and Captain America, Black Widow's former love affair with Hawkeye).
How do you get history? You have to have the initial interaction. Plain and simple. Wolverine has a looooong history with many of the Avengers. How much history did Hawkeye have with Iron Man before Avengers 16 when he joined? How much history did Beast have? Wonder Man had one single issue (where he died no less) before he came back to the team. You have to start somewhere... and Wolverine started a long time ago. Heck, he even has a retconned history with Cap going back to WW2!

[The Shadow]

Well, see, at one point, Hawkeye or Black Widow had NO history with the team. At what point did we decide to only play with the tools the past gave us instead of making our own new tools?
And I see Jake already tacked the Wolverine-lack of history issue 3 pages ago!

:D

Nice post BTW

[The Shadow]

Because the Avengers are not just a team book with a blank history and rotating membership, an Outer Limits style superhero anthology. They have a definite "type" of story (the giant epic tale, e.g. the Thanos War, Celestial Madonna, Kree/Skrull Wars), they have a sense of gravitas, a gravitas given when history is used.
And Wolverine has been in plenty of stories of that type... Dark Phoenix Saga, Asguardian Wars, Secret Wars 1 (lets forget 2!), Age of Apocalypse, X-Tinction Agenda and so on.

In other words, there IS right way and a wrong way to tell an Avengers story.
Right... according to whom? Marvel would be my answer and they apparently want to tell Avengers stories with Wolverine.

at one point Hawkeye and Black Widow had no history with the team, BUT at the same time, there are other factors that they possess that Wolverine does not that make them good choices.
Such as?

People that enjoy the presence of non-Avengers material like Wolverine and Spider-Man on the Avengers team are always the first to point out the team that came in the second or third year with Captain America, and three former reformed Super-Villains.
Spidey isn't Avengers material? Despite all the team ups over the years and being a reserve member for decades????

But the comparison between Cap's Qwartet and the Bendisvengers fails for several reasons. 1) it was done in the early days of the Avengers when the team's identity was more malleable
Well... if you want to get technical... Bendis' NEW Avengers weren't replacing the old Avengers... because they had disbanded. There were no old Avengers. Think of it as a fresh start (hence the "New" in the title and a fresh #1 issue). So there's nothing to base stories of the NEW Avengers on. Technically speaking of course.

2) despite the fact the roster was different, the stories were still recognizably AVENGERS stories: Attuma showed up to battle them, there was an emphasis on escapes using loopholes in traps and little-known powers
So... because Bendis isn't using the stabndard Avengers villains... he's not telling Avengers stories? I don't want to read about the Avengers taking down Gravitron, Attuma, Ultron etc. I have always been a fan of cross-pollination (Expletive Deleted coined that phrase) of villains in the Marvel U. So them fighting Silver Samari or Sauron is a welcome change to the Grim Reaper (again) or Baron Zemo (ho-hum).

First: why does someone being popular mean that character is automatically entitled to being an Avenger?
From a SALES perspective it's kind of a no brainer...

There have been characters that have been great for the team, that have been popular Avengers, and others that have been unpopular.
Yes and those stories have usually sucked (the Avengers under the leadership of Dr Druid or the bomber jacket era anyone???).

[The Shadow]

Wolverine shouldn't be an Avenger because it violates his own identity. What happened to Wolverine the sullen aloof loner that only young girls could break through to?
Ummm... he's been an X-Man for 30 years... almost since he first appeared. That loner argument hasn't fot him. And when he wants to be alone he goes to Canada.

Now I never particularly liked him in that, but that was what he was. And as such he should barely belong on one X-team let alone three and the Avengers.
He's only going to be on one X team and the Avengers now.

If you were going to pick an X-man with few ties to the Avengers I would go with Jean Grey. She is a best friend with Beast (who should be an Avenger and not an X-man since the X-men don't know how to use him), which is a pretty good start.
Jean's (thankfully) dead.

knows when to be a leader
When has Jean shown leadership???

Seriously... the 3 worst characters (IMO of course) are Angel, Iceman and Jean Grey. All useless.

[EmmettHULK]

Julian, if and when you become a Marvel writer, let us know so I can avoid your books.

[The Shadow]

The Avengers is a public organization.
Not since they got their UN charter revoked.

The Bendisvengers flagrantly ignore the Avengers code.
Ummm... when the Avengers disbanded their code went with them. This team has no "Code" to limit themselves (or stories). I was glad when the Charter went away.

[Edward J Cunningham]

Ok, but think of it this way: If you cant get a book with Cap, Iron Man, and Spidey to sell then you are doing something wrong. I mean, if the team was the same but sans-Logan, you really think the sales would drop dramatically? I dont think so, not as long as Bendis is writing it and top-notch artists are drawing it.

The reason Marvel puts Wolverine in so many books is because they SELL when he does so. Cap and IM may be the equivalent of DC's Superman and Batman in terms of prestige, but NOT in terms of popularity. If that were the case, Spider-Man would be in only one solo book, Cap and IM would be in four each, and Iron Man's sales would be used at the yardstick Diamond uses to compare sales rankings. Also, Cap and Iron Man---to be perfectly frank---would not need their books to be rebooted every couple of years if sales were OK.

To make the story work, you probably need a Cap and Iron Man, but make no mistake---it's Spider-Man and Wolverine who are the meal tickets.

Eddie Cunningham

http://25.photobucket.com/albums/y165/eddiejc1/New_Fem_Four.gif (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/femfour)

[Leebenhouse]

The reason Marvel puts Wolverine in so many books is because they SELL when he does so. Cap and IM may be the equivalent of DC's Superman and Batman in terms of prestige, but NOT in terms of popularity. If that were the case, Spider-Man would be in only one solo book, Cap and IM would be in four each, and Iron Man's sales would be used at the yardstick Diamond uses to compare sales rankings. Also, Cap and Iron Man---to be perfectly frank---would not need their books to be rebooted every couple of years if sales were OK.

To make the story work, you probably need a Cap and Iron Man, but make no mistake---it's Spider-Man and Wolverine who are the meal tickets.

BUT the point is, that the Avengers used to be a book that sold well enough on its own, without needing "sales" characters. And that's the book we're harkening back to, back in the days when you could buy a Marvel book and thoughoughly enjoy it, not because it was a product, but because it was good.

[The Shadow]

PUH LEASE if they where the greatest heros they would be known as Earth's mightiest heros and they are not they are shills for the government always where and always will be. Listen to DDM he is always right and always fair. DDM is like that nice news channel that always reports both sides of the story and doesn't allow any guff or crud or spin.
LMAO

Funniest post in this thread!!!

Accurate too ;)

[The Shadow]

The Avengers have never been the Justice League.
Except, you know... Avengers Vol 1 #1 when Stan Lee put together his best selling (sans Spider-Man) characters into one book to combat Loki whom they could not beat individually.

The individual members do not have to be the greatest heroes ever.
Neither do the JLA. Proof of that is the Detroit era JLA.

Kurt Busiek once used the example of the Avengers being like the baseball team that wins the World Series.
I don't get that... in order to win a World Series... you have to be a baseball team. :confused: So... what's the point of that saying/analogy?

PART of that identity, part of what makes them who they ARE, is that the Avengers are high-profile enough that they are willing to play by the rules. They aren't outlaws, they aren't just guys that get together on the weekends.
Ummmmm... with Cap and Spider-Woman on the team (both SHIELD agents) and Tony a former Government employee, and Logan a former Canadian agent I think these guys are capable of "playing by the rules"... unless you mean when the Avengers have had former Russian spys, Mutant Terrorists, and criminals on the team... THAT wouldn't have been playing by the rules.

Playing by the rules doesn't mean that you have to do everything that the government tells you to do.
Like the Bendis version of the Avengers?

There have been many occasions that in the face of obviously tyrannical liasons like Henry Peter Gyrich, that the Avengers have had to do what they think is best even with the very real threat of censure.
Like the Bendis Avengers?

At the same time, part of being the Avengers, and part of being as big as they are, is that they are OFFICIAL.
Who says? They didn't start out that way and were self governing... and there ahve been times when they weren't US or UN empowered. Was the West Coast team sanctioned??

[JulianPerez]

Right... according to whom? Marvel would be my answer and they apparently want to tell Avengers stories with Wolverine.

If Marvel started writing an Avengers series with Howard the Duck, Squirrel Girl, Ghost Rider and a Captain America who has a giant dong coming out of his forehead, would THAT be the Avengers? No.

As I said, there is a right way and a wrong way to tell an Avengers story. The idea that "whatever Marvel is doing must be right" is utterly nonsensical.

So... because Bendis isn't using the stabndard Avengers villains... he's not telling Avengers stories?

YES.

Of course, it isn't just that, but it certainly is a significant factor in how little these stories feel like Avengers stories. Classic Villains are just one more element that defines a team and makes it more distinctive, and one more thing for the current crop of writers to ignore when they really blow it. We rate teams by the villains they fight: the X-Men with Magneto, Mojo, the Sentinels, the Living Pharaoh, or the Justice League with Doctor Destiny, Despero, Amos Fortune, Professor Ivo and Amazo, and the Construct, or the Avengers, with the Grim Reaper, the Masters of Evil, Ultron, Kang, Count Nefaria, and the Living Laser.

A problem with companies like Jim Shooter's Valiant and, to a lesser extent, the Malibu Universe, was that as they had only a few villains and frequent crossovers with others, ultimately, none of the books ever acquired their own unique identity. It was a mistake to have Spider-Man, in his early issues, fight Doctor Doom. Doctor Doom is no more a Spider-Man enemy than Mephisto or Kang should be. Spider-Man's world is street-level, and his enemies are colorful bank robbers, crime leaders and

I don't want to read about the Avengers taking down Gravitron, Attuma, Ultron etc.

Those characters are as much a part of the scenery of a book as much as the heroes and the supporting cast. They can no more be disregarded than any other traditional element of the book without having the distinctive character of the book fundamentally changed. It is for this reason that, no matter how many times Magneto dies, he'll never stay dead.

From a SALES perspective it's kind of a no brainer...

Some things are more important than sales.

ESPECIALLY if you're a reader who sets out to enjoy what it is you're reading, and not an apologist for clueless, cowardly bean counters. Pointing to sales alone doesn't justify ANY creative decision. It explains it, but doesn't justify it.

A biography of Emily Dickinson starring a sexy Latin woman would surely make a lot of money (especially if it has old Emily in various states of undress), but it wouldn't be an honest transcript of the life of Emily Dickinson. Surely many more people would go to see THE PRODUCERS if a famous comic like Adam Sandler played the Matt Broderick part, but that doesn't change the fact that Adam Sandler is totally wrong for the role.

Yes and those stories have usually sucked (the Avengers under the leadership of Dr Druid or the bomber jacket era anyone???).

Now there's cherry picking proof if I ever saw one. If you expect me to disagree with you when you say that the jacket years sucked, you'd be wrong, those years blew. Would ANYONE disagree?

Okay, how about the Vision and the Scarlet Witch? Wonder Man? Hawkeye? Giant-Man and the Wasp? All of these characters, with the exception of Hawkeye and his SOLO AVENGERS, would be ludicrous and unsafe choices to headline their own book, but nonetheless they are very much a part of Avengers dynamic and would be worthy choices for any team. What makes a good Avengers has NOTHING to do with who heads popularity contests or who can support their own book.

Ummm... when the Avengers disbanded their code went with them. This team has no "Code" to limit themselves (or stories).

Wow, way to think of something that makes the Avengers WHO THEY ARE a limitation.

The fact the code was disbanded does not mean it is not important to determining the Avengers' uniqueness as a team, not does it mean that its elimination was a good or bad idea.

Except, you know... Avengers Vol 1 #1 when Stan Lee put together his best selling (sans Spider-Man) characters into one book to combat Loki whom they could not beat individually.

Batman used a gun in his first appearance, and Captain America on many a cover was machine gunning people. So the hell what? Since then, the Avengers have acquired their own definition of who they are instead of being the inferior version of the Justice League, as a collection for other characters with their own books. Pointing to the fact they were something different the first year, when they have since, through the process of growth and change, become something arguably better and more interesting, doesn't prove anything.

Here's the thing about the Justice League: they came FIRST. The original beats a carbon-copy every time.

Neither do the JLA. Proof of that is the Detroit era JLA.

Which was an appalling waste of paper from start to finish? Almost as bad as the Bendisvengers. I say ALMOST because decompression hadn't been invented yet. And it had just as much to do with that book as the Bendisvengers have to do with the actual Avengers.

And hopefully, like the Bendisvengers, it will be eliminated forever as soon as someone with a sense of what the book is supposed to be about comes on (though hopefully it won't take as long as it did with the ninnies in the Detroit League).

I don't get that... in order to win a World Series... you have to be a baseball team. So... what's the point of that saying/analogy?

The point is that the Avengers are not winners because they have the best individual members, but because they have an identity as a group that means that they can sport people with distinctive skills (catching, outfield) and they win through a team effort. Perhaps it would help the analogy better if Busiek explained that the Avengers were the baseball team that wins the World Series, and the Justice League of America are the U.S. Olympic Team.

Ummmmm... with Cap and Spider-Woman on the team (both SHIELD agents) and Tony a former Government employee, and Logan a former Canadian agent I think these guys are capable of "playing by the rules"... unless you mean when the Avengers have had former Russian spys, Mutant Terrorists, and criminals on the team... THAT wouldn't have been playing by the rules.

Way to totally miss the point and turn an argument you can't answer into an argument that nobody's making. You do that quite a bit - much easier than actually ADDRESSING points.

Despite the fact that the Avengers featured Russian spies and mutants and reformed criminals and undersea tyrants, the fact that the Avengers operated with government approval did not change.

Who says?

Jim Shooter, Steve Englehart, Roger Stern, Kurt Busiek...

there ahve been times when they weren't US or UN empowered.

There have been occasions where Batman has been a wanted criminal (when he was framed for murder by Ra's in the Len Wein DETECTIVEs, or when he was outlawed by the Tobacconists Club in Englehart's tenure). Does that mean the decision to permanently make Batman a wanted fugitive instead of a mysterious crimefighter that aids the police would be a good idea, too?

[Young Avenger]

If Marvel started writing an Avengers series with Howard the Duck, Squirrel Girl, Ghost Rider and a Captain America who has a giant dong coming out of his forehead, would THAT be the Avengers?

Well, if Marvel publish an Avengers series with those characters as members than THEY are the Avengers. How can you even argue something that? If Marvel says they are the Avengers than they are the Avengers. Like it or not it's something you need to deal with.


YES.

Of course, it isn't just that, but it certainly is a significant factor in how little these stories feel like Avengers stories. Classic Villains are just one more element that defines a team and makes it more distinctive, and one more thing for the current crop of writers to ignore when they really blow it. We rate teams by the villains they fight: the X-Men with Magneto, Mojo, the Sentinels, the Living Pharaoh, or the Justice League with Doctor Destiny, Despero, Amos Fortune, Professor Ivo and Amazo, and the Construct, or the Avengers, with the Grim Reaper, the Masters of Evil, Ultron, Kang, Count Nefaria, and the Living Laser.

So the Avenger's ain't allowed to fight any other villains outside their own? That's ridiculous. Who said that we can't get Avenger-type stories if they face villains like Silver Samurai, The Hand, or Magneto? The Avengers would seriously get stale if they are stuck facing the same villains all the time. They need to borden their amazon and take on different threats.

Batman used a gun in his first appearance, and Captain America on many a cover was machine gunning people. So the hell what? Since then, the Avengers have acquired their own definition of who they are instead of being the inferior version of the Justice League, as a collection for other characters with their own books. Pointing to the fact they were something different the first year, when they have since, through the process of growth and change, become something arguably better and more interesting, doesn't prove anything.

Like Bendis New Avengers?


And hopefully, like the Bendisvengers, it will be eliminated forever as soon as someone with a sense of what the book is supposed to be about comes on (though hopefully it won't take as long as it did with the ninnies in the Detroit League).

New Avengers has been a top 10 seller since it debut, the line-up is a popular one, been a lauching pad for some ongoing series and made obscure characters like Spider-Woman and Luke Cage on of the most popular characters in comics today. No way will it be forgotton.

[JulianPerez]

Well, if Marvel publish an Avengers series with those characters as members than THEY are the Avengers. How can you even argue something that? If Marvel says they are the Avengers than they are the Avengers. Like it or not it's something you need to deal with.

The fact that they are sold in a book marked the Avengers has nothing to do with the facts that its contents have nothing to do with what the Avengers are supposed to be about.

So the Avenger's ain't allowed to fight any other villains outside their own? That's ridiculous. Who said that we can't get Avenger-type stories if they face villains like Silver Samurai, The Hand, or Magneto? The Avengers would seriously get stale if they are stuck facing the same villains all the time. They need to borden their amazon and take on different threats.

Please read what I type more closely. The fact that none of the traditional Avengers villains popping up is symptomatic of the bigger problem: that there is a very weak sense of who it is the Avengers are, and how you tell an Avengers story.

It's not the disease, it's a symptom and one of many.

Kurt Busiek was able to have the first run of his Avengers book dominated by atypical foes like Kulan Gath, the Corruptor, and Moses Magnum, but in terms of his character interactions, in terms of his use of history and established characterizations, so much was spot-on and excellently written that he COULD tell a story and not have Kang or Ultron show up until his second year.

Like Bendis New Avengers?

No, NOTHING like New Avengers. And here's why:

The Avengers have been through lots of change. Change is GOOD. That's a theme of the book, that things change - some variant of the speech written in Englehart's GIANT-SIZED AVENGERS about "nothing stays the same in this group!"

But nonetheless, the Avengers still had a cohesive identity as a book that remained the same no matter who came and went, things like (for instance) being an "Official" team that acts with federal approval.

New Avengers has been a top 10 seller since it debut,

What's that line about nobody going broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public?

It sells well. So the hell what? It doesn't make it any good. As I recall, sales actually INCREASED during the Spider-Clone Saga.

the line-up is a popular one, been a lauching pad for some ongoing series and made obscure characters like Spider-Woman and Luke Cage on of the most popular characters in comics today.

Since when have Spider-Woman and Luke Cage, both characters that were heavy sellers and on their own books in their own day received top talent been "obscure?"

When I think obscure, I think of Woodgod, or Texas Twister, or N'Kantu the Living Mummy.

It's absurd to say a character as successful as Power Man is obscure.

No way will it be forgotton.

It certainly will be forgotten. Of that I have no doubt. It will be thrown into the dustbin of shameful and failed concepts, because once it stops being popular, everyone will realize how lousy it really is, and that's when the backlash starts. It's taken as common wisdom today that dreadful books like the Rob Liefeld YOUNGBLOOD were absolutely wretched. But they sold in the MILLIONS. Someone had to buy them, right? Today's popular books are tomorrow's retarded secret kept in the basement.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

It certainly will be forgotten. Of that I have no doubt. It will be thrown into the dustbin of shameful and failed concepts, because once it stops being popular, everyone will realize how lousy it really is...


LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

[Tommy]

When has Jean shown leadership???
I can think of two occasions where she created her own X-team and at least one where she was the leader of an official squad.

Seriously... the 3 worst characters (IMO of course) are Angel, Iceman and Jean Grey. All useless.
That is because all three get pushed to the sidelines since most writers can't think of what to do with them.

[Edward J Cunningham]

Since when have Spider-Woman and Luke Cage, both characters that were heavy sellers and on their own books in their own day received top talent been "obscure?"

But in Jessica's final issue to her original series, Marvel killed her off. Shortly afterwords, they resurrected Jessica in an Avengers story, but it's not like she joined the team or appeared as a guest star in several other books. For the most part, Jessica was forgotten by Marvel and we saw two successor Spider-Women introduced to keep Marvel's trademark alive.

Before Bendis! started using her as a character, Jessica Drew WAS an obscure character. He single-handedly changed that.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/eddiejc1/New_Fem_Four.gif (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/femfour/)

[Alan2099]

So why would Squirrel girl, Ghostrider, and Howard the Duck not make good Avengers? You said yourself that Kurt was able to take nonbasic enemies and tell good Avengers stories with them, why can't somebody add people that aren't basic Avengers and tell good Avengers stories with them?

Now maybe it's just me, but I actually thought X-Universe (despite the title) was a very good alternate Avengers stiories and that team had Gwen Stacy and Dr. Doom on it, yet it still felt like the Avengers to me, even if nobody actually had powers.

[The Shadow]

BUT the point is, that the Avengers used to be a book that sold well enough on its own, without needing "sales" characters.
So, why do sales always fall when Cap is not on the team? Why do they rise when he returns? Do you think perhaps there's a reason why he's pretty much on the team all the time?

Same applies to Iron Man and Thor.

And that's the book we're harkening back to, back in the days when you could buy a Marvel book and thoughoughly enjoy it, not because it was a product, but because it was good.
Like the previously mentioned bomber jacket era or the Dr Druid/Sersi team? Those stories were not good and did not feature Cap (a sales character) and seemed lost... and just plain bad.

I would have prefered a product. And don't kid yourself... Marvel isnt doing this for US... you and I... they are doing it for the $$$.

[tangentman]

But in Jessica's final issue to her original series, Marvel killed her off. Shortly afterwords, they resurrected Jessica in an Avengers story, but it's not like she joined the team or appeared as a guest star in several other books. For the most part, Jessica was forgotten by Marvel and we saw two successor Spider-Women introduced to keep Marvel's trademark alive.

Before Bendis! started using her as a character, Jessica Drew WAS an obscure character. He single-handedly changed that.

I realize that I'm rehashing an old debate here, but Jessica Drew hardly dropped off the face of the Earth after Avengers #244. Chris Claremont kept her as a recurring guest star in the X-Men by having Drew shelter them during Secret Wars 2. He also brought her into Wolverine's solo series as a supporting cast member for the 1st two years.

Although Jessica DID drop out of sight in the early 90's, she resurfaced in the back-up story of Sensational Spider-Man Annual '96. Jessica briefly returned in Wolverine and then Ostrander used her in a 2-parter in Heroes For Hire, where she might have remained active if the series hadn't folded. While Byrne DID introduce a 3rd Spider-Woman, Jessica stuck around as Mattie's mentor and was being slowly revived power-wise. Approximately two years later, Bendis used Jessica Drew in the 6-part "Underneath" arc in Alias.

It's dishonest to say that the character simply vanished into Marvel limbo for 20 years, when she made appearances in '86, '88-'90, '96, '98-'00, '03, and with New Avengers debut issue.

[Deus ex Chris]

The fact that they are sold in a book marked the Avengers has nothing to do with the facts that its contents have nothing to do with what the Avengers are supposed to be about.
You don't get to decide what the Avengers are supposed to be about. Whether you like it or not, the company that owns the rights to the concept (which would be Marvel) gets to decide that. No amount of fanboy wishing is going to changing that fact.

[JulianPerez]

You don't get to decide what the Avengers are supposed to be about. Whether you like it or not, the company that owns the rights to the concept (which would be Marvel) gets to decide that. No amount of fanboy wishing is going to changing that fact.

Ah, again and again with the whole fradulent "because it's being done at all, it must be right" attitude. Didn't I "do" this argument already?

But you are right: I don't get to decide. And Bendis doesn't get to decide either. There are right ways and wrong ways to tell an Avengers story. There are elements in place that define the character and uniqueness of this book, namely: Avengers Mansion, Government liasons, classic Avengers villains, characters behaving consistently with how they have been characterized as being, Avengers operating in an official capacity, members that fit with the overall identity of the book...THESE "decide" how to tell an Avengers story.

These things decide. Not me. Not you. Not Bendis. Not Joey Q-Ball.

[DDM]

I realize that I'm rehashing an old debate here, but Jessica Drew hardly dropped off the face of the Earth after Avengers #244. Chris Claremont kept her as a recurring guest star in the X-Men by having Drew shelter them during Secret Wars 2. He also brought her into Wolverine's solo series as a supporting cast member for the 1st two years.

Although Jessica DID drop out of sight in the early 90's, she resurfaced in the back-up story of Sensational Spider-Man Annual '96. Jessica briefly returned in Wolverine and then Ostrander used her in a 2-parter in Heroes For Hire, where she might have remained active if the series hadn't folded. While Byrne DID introduce a 3rd Spider-Woman, Jessica stuck around as Mattie's mentor and was being slowly revived power-wise. Approximately two years later, Bendis used Jessica Drew in the 6-part "Underneath" arc in Alias.

It's dishonest to say that the character simply vanished into Marvel limbo for 20 years, when she made appearances in '86, '88-'90, '96, '98-'00, '03, and with New Avengers debut issue.


Jessica Drew is also a supporting character in the original West Coast Avengers #1-4 limited series. She did background checks on all the recruits.

[Jake V]

But you are right: I don't get to decide. And Bendis doesn't get to decide either. There are right ways and wrong ways to tell an Avengers story. There are elements in place that define the character and uniqueness of this book, namely: Avengers Mansion, Government liasons, classic Avengers villains, characters behaving consistently with how they have been characterized as being, Avengers operating in an official capacity, members that fit with the overall identity of the book...THESE "decide" how to tell an Avengers story.
Would you say there were right ways and wrong ways to tell a Justice League story? Is Morrison's JLA the right way? Is Giffen's psuedo-comedy team the right way? Who's to say? Both iterations have their fans, both take rather prestigious places in comic book history.

Is there a right way and wrong way to tell an X-Men story? Where does the Australian era X-Men fit in to the "right and wrong" spectrum? Where do the Blue/Gold eras fit in? Where does the 2001 relaunch fit in? What about the "Giant Size" team? They're all vastly different and equally valid takes on the team.

I don't see the New Avengers as any different. As long as the core identity (as established in their first issue) is held to, it's still the Avengers. Things like the Avengers Charter, the Mansion, being Government liasons, and any official capacity they had were all new additions to the Avengers mythos at some point. When introduced, they all had nothing to do with whatever the "definition" of the Avengers was at the time.

None of those elements have been ignored in the New Avengers, they've all been acknowledged and an explanation has been given as to why they aren't applicable in the new team. This is just another new era in the history of the Avengers, and in no way should the current team be beholden to the past. If the X-Men and Justice League are allowed to change and evolve, why can't the Avengers?

[Deus ex Chris]

Ah, again and again with the whole fradulent "because it's being done at all, it must be right" attitude. Didn't I "do" this argument already?

But you are right: I don't get to decide. And Bendis doesn't get to decide either. There are right ways and wrong ways to tell an Avengers story. There are elements in place that define the character and uniqueness of this book, namely: Avengers Mansion, Government liasons, classic Avengers villains, characters behaving consistently with how they have been characterized as being, Avengers operating in an official capacity, members that fit with the overall identity of the book...THESE "decide" how to tell an Avengers story.

These things decide. Not me. Not you. Not Bendis. Not Joey Q-Ball.
Marvel gets to decide what is and isn't an Avengers story, period. You can argue this point until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to change the fact. We're talking Marvel properties here, and Marvel gets to decide how to define those properties.

[DDM]

Marvel gets to decide what is and isn't an Avengers story, period. You can argue this point until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to change the fact. We're talking Marvel properties here, and Marvel gets to decide how to define those properties.

Ultimately, the fans--the readers--are the best editors. New Avengers will not outlast Brian Michael Bendis stay on the book.

[Jake V]

Ultimately, the fans--the readers--are the best editors. New Avengers will not outlast Brian Michael Bendis stay on the book.
True, if the next writer is worth a damn, they'll avoid doing exactly what Bendis did.

But that doesn't mean they'll revert it to the classic status quo.

If they've got any balls at all, they'll try to leave their own mark on the book and go in an altogether different direction.

[Will.S]

There are right ways and wrong ways to tell an Avengers story. There are elements in place that define the character and uniqueness of this book, namely: Avengers Mansion, Government liasons, classic Avengers villains, characters behaving consistently with how they have been characterized as being, Avengers operating in an official capacity, members that fit with the overall identity of the book...THESE "decide" how to tell an Avengers story. There are set-ups in New Avengers that function in a similar capacity as the old set-up, for instance:
Captain America and Iron Man give the team enough legitimacy as New Avengers to not simply be a random assortment of heroes. Both have had longstanding history as Avengers and give the team leadership and support through tactical means and financial.
Stark Tower is pretty much a taller more monolothic version of Avengers Mansion which hasn't been rebuilt yet and acts as a memorial for the old guard as well as a place the Young Avengers like to convene.
There are no government liasons but in it's place are Maria Hill and S.H.I.E.L.D. who are devoid of Nick Fury and answer to the President which is seen in Secret War and the Collective arc.
The Avengers classic villains we alk know and love are not neccessary to establish the tone of a new Avengers book. NA already starts it's own history by having the team fight MU villains from all over in the Raft, the Savage Land Mutates, The Hand, the Super Adaptoid, and the Collective/Magneto. Then there's the new Ultron and Masters of Evil stories coming up which are going to be undoubtedly played out differently from the classic stories. Of course, the Masters of Evil as we know them cannot be used the same way unless the T-Bolts turn totally evil again and Ultron came back recently during the Runaways (and was destroyed again) so villain status quo's aren't the same as they were before too.
The characters have been portrayed consistently and have a good deal of comraderie. The Luke Cage & Spider-Man dynamic by itself plays off very organically alongside the usual Cap/Iron Man relationship we're used to. Once the Collective and Annual reared the relationships between all the characters are more apparent but unfortunately they are already being disbanded when the chemistry is just getting good.Anyway getting back to topic, I don't think any of the FF should be Avengers as they have their own little team there and I can only think of a handful of X-Men that can work as Avengers.

[Sean Whitmore]

Though a big fan of New Avengers, I think I would agree that Wolverine is someone who has no place on the Avengers. And not because he's a "loner", which is the biggest b.s. excuse there is regarding the character (who's spent every significant period of his life as part of one group or another).

When you come right down to it, it's because Wolverine kills, and the Avengers don't allow that. I'm not against Wolverine killing - I come down on his side of the argument more than the Avengers' - but THEY are against it.

If Bendis had had a fantastic reason for them allowing him to join, I'd have been swayed. But he didn't. His reason was (from Iron Man, for frig's sake) that having Wolverine on the team would allow him to do the things they wouldn't. Basically, "We don't kill...but, y'know, sometimes we NEED to kill...so we'll have Wolverine do it." That Cap didn't smack Tony upside the head for that astounds me.

Basically, Bendis' reason for having Wolverine on the team (his interaction with the others) is a very good one. He just couldn't make it work storywise, so it should have been avoided.


SEAN

[The Shadow]

If Marvel started writing an Avengers series with Howard the Duck, Squirrel Girl, Ghost Rider and a Captain America who has a giant dong coming out of his forehead, would THAT be the Avengers? No.
Why not?

As I said, there is a right way and a wrong way to tell an Avengers story.
According to whom?

The idea that "whatever Marvel is doing must be right" is utterly nonsensical.
Yet they own the characters.

Classic Villains are just one more element that defines a team and makes it more distinctive
How does a villain become a classic? And using Kingpin as an example he's successfully gone from Spidey to DD and back again proving it IS possible.

We rate teams by the villains they fight: the X-Men with Magneto, Mojo, the Sentinels, the Living Pharaoh, or the Justice League with Doctor Destiny, Despero, Amos Fortune, Professor Ivo and Amazo, and the Construct, or the Avengers, with the Grim Reaper, the Masters of Evil, Ultron, Kang, Count Nefaria, and the Living Laser.
So why can't the Avengers fight Magneto? Other than your close minded approch to not crossing over "Classic X-Men villains" into the Avengers... don't you think the Avengers would sometimes fight Magneto? They did... waaaaaaay back in #110 or 111 (or something like that). But I think limiting the Avengers to the same villains over and over and over and over again contributes to the title becoming stale.

A problem with companies like Jim Shooter's Valiant and, to a lesser extent, the Malibu Universe, was that as they had only a few villains and frequent crossovers with others, ultimately, none of the books ever acquired their own unique identity.
Right... but Marvel has 60+ YEARS and HUNDREDS of villains. The situations aren't comparable... at all.

It was a mistake to have Spider-Man, in his early issues, fight Doctor Doom.
According to whom?

Doctor Doom is no more a Spider-Man enemy than Mephisto or Kang should be. Spider-Man's world is street-level, and his enemies are colorful bank robbers, crime leaders
And yet one of my favorite recent Spidey arcs was the 2 issue "team up" with Loki.

Those characters are as much a part of the scenery of a book as much as the heroes and the supporting cast. They can no more be disregarded than any other traditional element of the book without having the distinctive character of the book fundamentally changed.
Wow... I can't say I disagree more.

Some things are more important than sales.
Not if you want to keep the books you love ;) . If the classic Avengers was selling New Avengers numbers we wouldn't be having the conversation. So obviously there weren't enough classic fans to sustain the classic Avengers. Sales are VERY important then.

ESPECIALLY if you're a reader who sets out to enjoy what it is you're reading, and not an apologist for clueless, cowardly bean counters. Pointing to sales alone doesn't justify ANY creative decision. It explains it, but doesn't justify it.
LOL

I think you insulted me there... what about those of us that DO enjoy what Bendis has done?

I don't need to apologise for ANYTHING. I'm about the biggest Avengers fan around... I am missing 15 issues for a complete Avengers run... ALL the issues from Vol 1 to the present issue of New Avengers, WCA/AWC, Solo Avengers, Force Works and pretty much every mini series/one shot as well.

A biography of Emily Dickinson starring a sexy Latin woman would surely make a lot of money (especially if it has old Emily in various states of undress), but it wouldn't be an honest transcript of the life of Emily Dickinson. Surely many more people would go to see THE PRODUCERS if a famous comic like Adam Sandler played the Matt Broderick part, but that doesn't change the fact that Adam Sandler is totally wrong for the role.
Apples... meet Oranges.

The fact the code was disbanded does not mean it is not important to determining the Avengers' uniqueness as a team, not does it mean that its elimination was a good or bad idea.
No... but it means Marvel wanted to try something new... as you pointed out below the New Avengers is trying something that hasn't been done in roughly 40 YEARS.

Batman used a gun in his first appearance, and Captain America on many a cover was machine gunning people.
As you say, so the hell what?

Here's the thing about the Justice League: they came FIRST. The original beats a carbon-copy every time.
No... the JSA did.

someone with a sense of what the book is supposed to be about comes on I'm with Emmet here in that if and when you become a Marvel writer let us know so I can avoid your books

The point is that the Avengers are not winners because they have the best individual members, but because they have an identity as a group that means that they can sport people with distinctive skills (catching, outfield) and they win through a team effort. Perhaps it would help the analogy better if Busiek explained that the Avengers were the baseball team that wins the World Series, and the Justice League of America are the U.S. Olympic Team.
... I still don't get it... even a team of All Stars has to play as a team to win... moving on...

Way to totally miss the point and turn an argument you can't answer into an argument that nobody's making.
... you said "PART of that identity, part of what makes them who they ARE, is that the Avengers are high-profile enough that they are willing to play by the rules. They aren't outlaws, they aren't just guys that get together on the weekends"

Then I responded "Ummmmm... with Cap and Spider-Woman on the team (both SHIELD agents) and Tony a former Government employee, and Logan a former Canadian agent I think these guys are capable of "playing by the rules"... unless you mean when the Avengers have had former Russian spys, Mutant Terrorists, and criminals on the team... THAT wouldn't have been playing by the rules."

So... what were you bringing that up for? I was pointing out the current roster DOES and is CAPABLE of playing by the rules.

You do that quite a bit - much easier than actually ADDRESSING points.
Riiiiiiiight... What have I been doing then? :rolleyes:

Despite the fact that the Avengers featured Russian spies and mutants and reformed criminals and undersea tyrants, the fact that the Avengers operated with government approval did not change. So... what's changed?

Jim Shooter, Steve Englehart, Roger Stern, Kurt Busiek...
Since when do they own the Avengers?

And I can counter that by saying Bendis and Quesada say it's time (much needed) for a change.

Are you telling me that if, Steve Englehart, wrote an issue where Wasp said she would ONLY date blond haired guys that every writer from that issue on should be handcuffed and not have her date a red headded guy??? I thought you said ou said Change was GOOD?!?!

There have been occasions where Batman has been a wanted criminal (when he was framed for murder by Ra's in the Len Wein DETECTIVEs, or when he was outlawed by the Tobacconists Club in Englehart's tenure). Does that mean the decision to permanently make Batman a wanted fugitive instead of a mysterious crimefighter that aids the police would be a good idea, too?
Sure... why not?

[Hi-Fi]

I think EVERY hero should be able to be an avenger. If that were restrictions, we wouldn't have had great members like Justice, Firestar (young blood), Cage (a "street hero") and Sersi (an eternal).

[The Shadow]

The Avengers have been through lots of change. Change is GOOD. That's a theme of the book, that things change - some variant of the speech written in Englehart's GIANT-SIZED AVENGERS about "nothing stays the same in this group!"

[QUOTE=JulianPerez]But nonetheless, the Avengers still had a cohesive identity as a book that remained the same no matter who came and went, things like (for instance) being an "Official" team that acts with federal approval.
But they didn't start that way and have, many times, lost their status.

What's that line about nobody going broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public?
I don't know... are you American?

It sells well. So the hell what? It doesn't make it any good. As I recall, sales actually INCREASED during the Spider-Clone Saga.
And you said I cherry picked... sure they did at the beginning... but at the end the sales were so dismal the market crashed and more people quit buying comics than ever before at one time.

It's absurd to say a character as successful as Power Man is obscure.
Successful... by 1970's standards?? Hell yeah...

By todays? Not. Even. Close.
How well did the Cage mini by Azzurello do?

everyone will realize how lousy it really is
Thank you oh JulianPerez for foretelling the future and letting me know what I'll like.

With THAT talent you should be betting on sports instead of telling others what's good and what isn't.... and what they'll like in the future.

It's pompous people like you that really suck the fun out of places like this.

You think you're so informed and special that YOUR opinions and YOUR ideas are the ONLY acceptable ones and if people don't agree with you they are just plain wrong. You must lead a sheltered and lonely life... unless you have a bunch of sychophants at your beck and call. Either way it's sad.

[The Shadow]

When you come right down to it, it's because Wolverine kills, and the Avengers don't allow that.
Cap has killed, Hawkeye has killed, Moon Knight has killed, Black Knight has killed... granted not to Wolverine's extent... but I could see that argument if NO Avenger had EVER killed... but that's not the case.

[Hi-Fi]

Cap has killed, Hawkeye has killed, Moon Knight has killed, Black Knight has killed... granted not to Wolverine's extent... but I could see that argument if NO Avenger had EVER killed... but that's not the case.

A bunch of them wanted to kill the Supreme Inteligence (Wonder Man, Hercules, Sersi and some others I don't recall). Black Knight was the one that finished it, though.

[JulianPerez]

If Bendis had had a fantastic reason for them allowing him to join, I'd have been swayed. But he didn't. His reason was (from Iron Man, for frig's sake) that having Wolverine on the team would allow him to do the things they wouldn't.

If you have a member that hasn't been an Avenger before, there needs to be uncommon justification to account for their presence so that we the reader can accept it. And with Wolverine, this was frankly, not given. There are many, many places of this being done well in Avengers historty. But compare the gymnastics that Englehart had to do to get Hellcat on the team. Compare how resistance to Namor's admission was a running subplot of the Roger Stern years.

Basically, "We don't kill...but, y'know, sometimes we NEED to kill...so we'll have Wolverine do it." That Cap didn't smack Tony upside the head for that astounds me.

Precisely. Look what the admission of Wolverine does to the characterization of Captain America - who is an idealist, that would resent the ruthlessly practical decision to admit Wolverine.

And Iron Man just about BEGGING Wolverine to join was a sickening sight.

Why not? (About Howard the Duck being on the Avengers)

I shouldn't have to explain this, but apparently there are some people out there that wonder why Howard the Duck wouldn't make a good Avenger!

Because Howard the Duck is a comedy character whose presence in the Marvel Universe is a technicality. He does not regularly "fight crime." He's had his difficulties with Dr. Bong, to be sure, but Howard the Duck's stories are not superhero stories. It would be as nonsensical to include Howard as it would be to include Killraven

Because Ghost Rider is a very interesting, grotesque and frightening character who would best fit in with the group dynamic of other teams.

See first post for Squirrel Girl.

And Captain America having a penis growing out of his forehead is a very goofy idea that not only compromises Cap's dignity, it also makes his book less family-friendly.

How does a villain become a classic? And using Kingpin as an example he's successfully gone from Spidey to DD and back again proving it IS possible.

Villains that have been around for some time can become worthy foes with the right writer when they show something of that enemy that other writers have never looked at before, and make him or her interesting and charismatic. There are many examples of this. However, a writer of Bendis's limited talent (SPLASH PAGE: Earth. Later on: Splash page of earth again...with energy moving towards it) has not provided any insight of this nature into any villain.

So why can't the Avengers fight Magneto? Other than your close minded approch to not crossing over "Classic X-Men villains" into the Avengers... don't you think the Avengers would sometimes fight Magneto? They did... waaaaaaay back in #110 or 111 (or something like that). But I think limiting the Avengers to the same villains over and over and over and over again contributes to the title becoming stale.

You're arguing against a position nobody is taking here.

Did at any point I say that the Avengers can't fight villains from other books? I never said that at any point, please read what I type more closely. In fact, at one point I praised Busiek for his non-intuitive use of great underused villains like Kulan Gath and Moses Magnum. In fact, the single story that gave the most character of Latveria was AVENGERS #25 (1965) was when Doctor Doom lured the Avengers in a trap in his country.

What I AM saying (and what you'd know the first time if you read my comments instead of selecting easily toppled straw men) is that the book doesn't feel like the Avengers for a variety of reasons explored above, and the absence of classic enemies isn't helping any.

On a related note:

So why would Squirrel girl, Ghostrider, and Howard the Duck not make good Avengers? You said yourself that Kurt was able to take nonbasic enemies and tell good Avengers stories with them, why can't somebody add people that aren't basic Avengers and tell good Avengers stories with them?

The fact that unusual Avengers choices have been made is only part of the problem.

There is something fundamentally wrong with reading a book that could have ANY OTHER NAME on the cover besides "Avengers." Any other name, and there would be no need to change anything about the story.

Right... but Marvel has 60+ YEARS and HUNDREDS of villains. The situations aren't comparable... at all.

Thousands would be more like it.

And yes, the situations ARE comparable, because look at Spider-Man's early adventures. He encountered the Fantastic Four, but he did it in a Spider-Man-y way. He fought bank robbers and crime kings and didn't go into space or anything of this nature (except with the above stated misstep with Doctor Doom). His first few years, Spider-Man hit the ground running: his types of stories were very different from the types of stories told in FF in many ways.

Granted, not all books were as lucky to take shape with the same sense of picareque humor and worldview that Spider-Man did (MIGHTY THOR, for instance, didn't really have an identity or anything distinctive until several years later, after the TALES OF ASGARD backup) but the point is, they eventually GOT one.

Compare to the Valiant books, just about all of which feature Master Darque-centered stories and the same approach to heroism: they're the exact same flavor of ice cream.

As you say, so the hell what? (about Batman using a gun)

Because characters in their first appearances have leeway and wiggle room because their distinctiveness has not been totally shaped, and they do things that we know they would later not do. In an early appearance, Don Blake built a fully functioning android, for instance.

Batman would never use a gun - he has been repeatedly characterized over the years as being someone that both hates firearms and has respect for human life. Thus, pointing to the fact that Batman used a gun in his early issues is insufficient justification for Batman using a gun NOW, in the year 2006, with everything that is done with the character.

And that's really the heart of my opposition to "well, in the EARLY days..." arguments. Just because it was true in the beginning does not mean it should be true now and all that has emerged in the interim ought to be disregarded.

No... the JSA did.

Very, very petty quibbling.

The Justice League was a revamp and revival of the JSA concept just as Barry Allen was a revival of the Jay Garrick character.

So... what's changed?

Qiestion is answered in the post above.

Are you telling me that if, Steve Englehart, wrote an issue where Wasp said she would ONLY date blond haired guys that every writer from that issue on should be handcuffed and not have her date a red headded guy??? I thought you said ou said Change was GOOD?!?!

YES.

If Englehart established that Wasp would only date blonde haired guys, a reason should be given if she decides to give non-blondes a try. Contrary to popular belief, this really isn't that hard:

"Hey, Jan, I thought you said you weren't leaving the blonde team, what gives with the new beau?"

"I know I said that, but he's just so dreamy, he's blonde on the inside! (giggle)"

Change IS good, but being sloppy and lazy isn't. And that's ultimately what ignorance of history is: unprofessionalism.

Here's my new quote: "Nobody's perfect. That's what editors are for."

I think EVERY hero should be able to be an avenger. If that were restrictions, we wouldn't have had great members like Justice, Firestar (young blood),

Oh, c'mon, the both of them weren't Avengers material? They had very visual powers that don't overlap with existing Avengers, they were lifelong team players (particularly on the New Warriors), and they were both characters where being on the team affected their characterization. Wolverine, on the Avengers, is still Wolverine. But look what being in the Avengers did to these two.

Sersi (an eternal).

Sersi was not a great choice for the Avengers for two reasons:

1) She was always characterized as being someone whose primary motivation is hedonism. This is the "Machine-Man" problem: Machine-Man has always been more interested in humans and human interaction than adventure.

2) She has a lot of power. Now, the Avengers have characters that have lots and lots of power, to be sure, but Thor and Hercules type high-powered characters whose incredible power level BENEFITS the story in a very visual way. With Sersi's powers of molecular manipulation, one has to wonder why fights weren't over before they started.

Apples... meet Oranges.

How is that apples and oranges? Adam Sandler is totally wrong for THE PRODUCERS. Woverine is totally wrong for the Avengers.

And you said I cherry picked... sure they did at the beginning... but at the end the sales were so dismal the market crashed and more people quit buying comics than ever before at one time.

I think you're missing my overall point. Sales can't be used to validate quality, because lots of very unworthy things have been popular.

It's pompous people like you that really suck the fun out of places like this.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Sean Whitmore]

Cap has killed, Hawkeye has killed, Moon Knight has killed, Black Knight has killed... granted not to Wolverine's extent... but I could see that argument if NO Avenger had EVER killed... but that's not the case.


I don't think HAVING killed is reason not to be an Avenger. Like you say, many have. But I think continuing to kill, and choosing to kill as a first choice rather than a last resort (as Wolverine has shown in his currenty story arc alone) makes him a lot different from, say, Hawkeye.

Hawkeye has killed, but regrets it, and has vowed never to again. To the point where his one condition for taking over the Thunderbolts was that Mach I (the one proven kiler among them) had to turn himself in.


SEAN

[Sean Walsh]

Wolverine.

When Cap told him "you will NEVER be an Avenger" some years ago (forget where exactly) that should've kept him off the team forever.

Sad to see Cap's word don't means a lot anymore.... :-/

[TimmyTony]

Because Howard the Duck is a comedy character whose presence in the Marvel Universe is a technicality. He does not regularly "fight crime." He's had his difficulties with Dr. Bong, to be sure, but Howard the Duck's stories are not superhero stories. It would be as nonsensical to include Howard as it would be to include Killraven
.


Using those standards, She-hulk should never be an Avenger at this point.
Her current book is a comedy, she doesn't regularly fight crime...she faces bizarre law cases in court, and her presence in the MU is not exactly prevalent all over other books.
It's apparent that her stories are not superhero stories.
Heck, she even fought Dr.Bong back in Sensational, and she talked to the reader.!!!

[dingo]

Using those standards, She-hulk should never be an Avenger at this point.
Her current book is a comedy, she doesn't regularly fight crime...she faces bizarre law cases in court, and her presence in the MU is not exactly prevalent all over other books.
It's apparent that her stories are not superhero stories.
Heck, she even fought Dr.Bong back in Sensational, and she talked to the reader.!!!

She-Hulk is no more a legal book than Spider-man ever was a book about a newspaper.

In both cases that is just where the supporting cast came from.

It is definately superheroics (at least in it's current incarnation) in spite of the humour.

[EmmettHULK]

Yeah, I agree that if Howard The Duck or Squirrel Girls can't be an Avenger, neither can She-hulk, or Deadpool.


Anyone can be an Avenger...Marvel owns the characters and they decide who is one or not.
It doesn't matter if they are joke characters ala She-hulk or Squirrel Girl...Marvel is the only entity who decides who becomes an Avenger.
We fanboys need to stop thinking we own these characters...

[Alan2099]

If you have a member that hasn't been an Avenger before, there needs to be uncommon justification to account for their presence so that we the reader can accept it. And with Wolverine, this was frankly, not given. There are many, many places of this being done well in Avengers historty. But compare the gymnastics that Englehart had to do to get Hellcat on the team. Compare how resistance to Namor's admission was a running subplot of the Roger Stern years.
Wolverine's involvement was done very poorly, but why does that mean he should never have gotten a chance?


And yes, the situations ARE comparable, because look at Spider-Man's early adventures. He encountered the Fantastic Four, but he did it in a Spider-Man-y way.

If Englehart established that Wasp would only date blonde haired guys, a reason should be given if she decides to give non-blondes a try. Contrary to popular belief, this really isn't that hard:
What you seem to be saying is that almost anything is exceptable as long as it's told in a way that fits the theme of the characters and the book, EXCEPT that certain people should never be allowed to join the team, even if the writers make up a logically good reason for them to do so that fits the book and the characters.

It doesn't work that way. Forget Bendis's mismatched crew and the lack of reasoning they had for joining the team. What you're saying is that there's no way that anyboddy could ever possibly write Wolverine or whoever as Avengers.

[DDM]

I think EVERY hero should be able to be an avenger. If that were restrictions, we wouldn't have had great members like Justice, Firestar (young blood), Cage (a "street hero") and Sersi (an eternal).

Justice, when he was simply Marvel Boy, was originally rejected for Avengers membership. Captain America said Vance Astro was too young to be an Avenger. Justice was given a membership on the Avengers years later after he grew up into an adult because he proved his worthiness as a New Warrior.

[DDM]

Wolverine.

When Cap told him "you will NEVER be an Avenger" some years ago (forget where exactly) that should've kept him off the team forever.

Sad to see Cap's word don't means a lot anymore.... :-/

I believe Captain America told Wolverine he would never be an Avenger in Captain America Annual #8:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14481892132.8.GIF

[DDM]

Yeah, I agree that if Howard The Duck or Squirrel Girls can't be an Avenger, neither can She-hulk, or Deadpool.


Anyone can be an Avenger...Marvel owns the characters and they decide who is one or not.
It doesn't matter if they are joke characters ala She-hulk or Squirrel Girl...Marvel is the only entity who decides who becomes an Avenger.
We fanboys need to stop thinking we own these characters...

She-Hulk has an established history with the Avengers. Heck, she was both in the Avengers while serving full time on the Fantastic Four! She-Hulk is written very differently in The Avengers & Fantastic Four than she is in She-Hulk.

Howard the Duck & Squirrel Girl are different birds of a feather.

[bfrank]

Who shouldn't be an Avenger:

Any "god"....bye Herc, ByeThor....Makes no sense for them to be there.

Reformed Crooks....if we're going on and on about background checks and what not, by Hawkeye, Wanda, Quicksilver, Simon...I guess the Viz would have to go too.....

Wife Beaters....See Ya Hank.....

Chicks that dig wife beaters.....Bye Janet

Drunks So long Tony, Don't let the door hit you Carol....

And to respect tradition, because that is so, so, so very important, any one who was not a member in issue 1, should never be a member, ever....bye Cap...

who's left? Hulk?

[Brandon McKinnis]

The Hulk may or may not have killed though...ambiguity means he's off the team, I like straight shooters.

[Taskmaster]

I believe Captain America told Wolverine he would never be an Avenger in Captain America Annual #8:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14481892132.8.GIF


They also later established through their unrevealed past that Captain America once asked Wolverine to be his side-kick (well at the time he was just Logan, but you see my point). So I would say the two give Cap and Wolvie a complex relationship that has changed over time and I see no reason he wouldn't allow Wolverine on the team if the situation was right

[The Shadow]

If you have a member that hasn't been an Avenger before, there needs to be uncommon justification to account for their presence so that we the reader can accept it.
So what was Firestar and Justice's? They were kids and are all grown up now... is THAT justifcation?

Because Howard the Duck is a comedy character whose presence in the Marvel Universe is a technicality. He does not regularly "fight crime." He's had his difficulties with Dr. Bong, to be sure, but Howard the Duck's stories are not superhero stories. It would be as nonsensical to include Howard as it would be to include Killraven
Say it with me now... "this is all MY OPINION of course..."

Because Ghost Rider is a very interesting, grotesque and frightening character who would best fit in with the group dynamic of other teams.
Why? What's the difference if he's with the Champions or Avengers? As long as he abides by the Avengers Code and doesn't kill... what's stopping him from being a good Avenger?

See first post for Squirrel Girl.
See above.

What I AM saying /SNIP for the veiled insult:rolleyes: / is that the book doesn't feel like the Avengers for a variety of reasons explored above, and the absence of classic enemies isn't helping any.
... could it be because they're trying to differentiate between old and new?

There is something fundamentally wrong with reading a book that could have ANY OTHER NAME on the cover besides "Avengers." Any other name, and there would be no need to change anything about the story.
There is something fundamentally wrong with listening to people bitch about a book because they want it to have ANY OTHER NAME on the cover besides "Avengers" and have an inability to try something new or accept something THEY deem "improper."

Very, very petty quibbling.
I disagree. It's a fact. An indisputable fact.

YES.

If Englehart established that Wasp would only date blonde haired guys, a reason should be given if she decides to give non-blondes a try.

Change IS good, but being sloppy and lazy isn't. And that's ultimately what ignorance of history is: unprofessionalism.
And the constant need to pander to people that have this view can be crappy to a writer especially when there's 45+ years of stories to consider. Why limit a writer because someone wrote a story 45 years ago.

How is that apples and oranges? Adam Sandler is totally wrong for THE PRODUCERS. Woverine is totally wrong for the Avengers.
But a Sandler fan would probably prefer him in the role for the humour in him being a fish out of water. Who are you to say he wouldn't be good? Your preconcieved notions maybe...

Pot, meet kettle.
Yeah... I hear that... and yet I get positive PM's about my posts. ;)

[Shellhead]

Johnny Storm must never join the Avengers, because the other three primary members of the Fantastic Four have already been Avengers. If Johnny joined too, it would reduce the Fantastic Four to being merely a subsidiary of the Avengers.

Cyclops should never become an Avenger, because he is too closely involved with the X-Men and their agendas. If Scott isn't fighting on behalf of mutant causes, I think he would sooner retire than become a mere superhero as an Avenger. Sure, he would help the Avengers if it meant saving the world, but Scott would have zero interest in moving into their HQ and going on their payroll.

[Deus ex Chris]

Johnny Storm must never join the Avengers, because the other three primary members of the Fantastic Four have already been Avengers. If Johnny joined too, it would reduce the Fantastic Four to being merely a subsidiary of the Avengers.
Your logic seems a bit skewed to me. The Fantastic Four are the Fantastic Four, regardless of any other affiliations the members may have. The only way they would become a subsidiary of the Avengers is if, well, they were made a subsidiary of the Avengers, in the books.

[The Shadow]

Justice, when he was simply Marvel Boy, was originally rejected for Avengers membership. Captain America said Vance Astro was too young to be an Avenger. Justice was given a membership on the Avengers years later after he grew up into an adult because he proved his worthiness as a New Warrior.
And you don't think Wolverine has proven his heroism and valor time and time again in the X titles? How many people has he saved? How many people has he helped? How many young X-students has he helped teach?

Cummon... that's a HUGE double standard DDM.

[The Shadow]

She-Hulk has an established history with the Avengers. Heck, she was both in the Avengers while serving full time on the Fantastic Four! She-Hulk is written very differently in The Avengers & Fantastic Four than she is in She-Hulk.
Why can't they be adapted? If She-Hulk can be written differently from her solo series by whomever is writing the team books, why can't the same thing be done to Howard and Squirel Girl?

[DMike]

They also later established through their unrevealed past that Captain America once asked Wolverine to be his side-kick (well at the time he was just Logan, but you see my point). So I would say the two give Cap and Wolvie a complex relationship that has changed over time and I see no reason he wouldn't allow Wolverine on the team if the situation was right

Yeah, that line and the bad blood between them in New Avengers makes no sense given all the times they've worked together just fine without Cap trying to get all moral-high-ground-guy.

[DDM]

And you don't think Wolverine has proven his heroism and valor time and time again in the X titles? How many people has he saved? How many people has he helped? How many young X-students has he helped teach?

Cummon... that's a HUGE double standard DDM.

There is no parallel between Vance Astro & Wolverine. Wolverine is a known killer; it's one of the reasons he should not ever be an Avenger. Astro was just too young to be considered an Avenger.

[Haunt]

Why can't they be adapted? If She-Hulk can be written differently from her solo series by whomever is writing the team books, why can't the same thing be done to Howard and Squirel Girl?


because both characters suck.

[DDM]

Yeah, that line and the bad blood between them in New Avengers makes no sense given all the times they've worked together just fine without Cap trying to get all moral-high-ground-guy.

The X-Men are not the Avengers. Wolverine--as a member of the X-Men--may have worked along the Avengers, but he still was not an Avenger. The X-Men is a private organization; whereas, the Avengers is very much the polar opposite, a public organization, with health benefits & a check.

[The Shadow]

There is no parallel between Vance Astro & Wolverine.
You got that right. One's an interesting character, with a long history and some awesome stories behind him. The other is Vance Astro.

Wolverine is a known killer; it's one of the reasons he should not ever be an Avenger. Astro was just too young to be considered an Avenger.
Bah... double standard.

How many A (or even B and C) list villains has Wolverine killed that have managed to stay dead? Sure he's killed some Hand guys... maybe some Hydra and possibly AIM lackeys... but really... how many big name villains has he killed?

And what about the number of people he's saved? Wouldn't that get some of his sins forgiven? The whole Dark Phoenix thing not earn him any brownie points?

[Leebenhouse]

So, why do sales always fall when Cap is not on the team? Why do they rise when he returns? Do you think perhaps there's a reason why he's pretty much on the team all the time?

Same applies to Iron Man and Thor.

Yes, sales rise, not because the character is there, but Cap, Thor and Iron man are an essential part of the team, and the book lacks without them. A good example is Seinfeld spinoffs. None of them have lasted, even though the actors all played very similar characters on their new shows. The problem is, the cast dynamic isn't the same, so they all got canned. Same deal with the Avengers.

There's a difference between Cap, Thor, and Iron Man and a "ratings guest star" who is put in to boost popularity. When I think of Marvel's "ratings guest star" characters, I think of the Punisher, Spiderman, and Wolverine. That staple is occasionally boosted by other characters. A good example of this is the joke from Arthur Adams' time on Fantastic Four between #347-349. The "new" Fantastic four was made up of Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Spiderman and the grey Hulk, who were at the time, along with the Punisher(featured in the last issue of the arc by the way) Marvel's sales booster characters.



Originally Posted by Leebenhouse
And that's the book we're harkening back to, back in the days when you could buy a Marvel book and thoughoughly enjoy it, not because it was a product, but because it was good.

Like the previously mentioned bomber jacket era or the Dr Druid/Sersi team? Those stories were not good and did not feature Cap (a sales character) and seemed lost... and just plain bad.

I would have prefered a product. And don't kid yourself... Marvel isnt doing this for US... you and I... they are doing it for the $$$.

I was refering to the 1998 Heroes Return, which was when quality making the book sell, not because it was a Spiderman or Wolverine comic book. The problem is that Marvel is taking the easy way out, not the creative way out. If they used quality to make a sale, rather than flash, Marvel, would have a solid book. Right now the team is too much flash, and not enough substance.

A good writer can even make a crappy team good. Just look at Byrne's famous West Coast Avengers run. You never hear anyone raving about a damn thing else in that spinoff title, except his run.

Bendis on the other hand, stereotypes characters, (i.e. his writing of the Falcon's gangsta/angry black man dialogue in the last issue) and generally plays favorites(his writing of his favorite 70s childhood characters Spider-Woman and Cage[who kinda sucked back in the day]). Heck, even when he creates new characters for the book, like Ronin, he's just recycling one of his Daredevil characters.

I wouldn't have such a problem with the all flash team, if A) Bendis was a better writer, and B) the Avengers have never been a book which was traditionally a showcase book, initially it was, yes, but within 4 issues it grew beyond that, when Cap joined. Ever since it has maintained a tradition of not being a mere showcase book, heck even within 2 issues it stopped being a showcase book, when the Hulk quit. Ever since there's been a couple members without a solo book, and as of this fall, there's only going to be one character on the roster who hasn't even had a recent mini, if not an ongoing. And that's Jarvis.(Well, Ronin too, but she hasn't even appeared again since her arc.) Speaking of which, when was the last time he was in the Avengers book?

I think Joey Q is thinking too much about the ends($$$), and not enough about the means. Shooter, Lee, and the rest thought about the means, and had standards as to how to get there. Heck, Shooter wouldn't even let a gay character/with AIDS appear in a Marvel book, that's how conservative his editing was. And Lee didn't put Spiderman into his showcase, did he, though he put about every other solo hero into the Avengers back in the day. And now we got Joey Q. Only in for the money, not in for pleasing the customer. And the customer's always right, dammit.

[Mick Martin]

Hulk.

I've read a lot of threads on different message boards about the smarter incarnations being able to fit in the team, but I don't think so. He's not a team player, and he doesn't take orders. He certainly doesn't take orders from a guy who wears the flag of the government who's hunted him for years, who helped hunt him down a number of times, and stole his sidekick. It just wouldn't make any sense. A team-up every now and then because the situation fits, fine. But not a full-time team member.

[Leebenhouse]

Deathcry. She can die...

And burn in hell.

Even Busiek didn't work her into any of his stuff.

[Bobster777]

Hulk.

I've read a lot of threads on different message boards about the smarter incarnations being able to fit in the team, but I don't think so. He's not a team player, and he doesn't take orders. He certainly doesn't take orders from a guy who wears the flag of the government who's hunted him for years, who helped hunt him down a number of times, and stole his sidekick. It just wouldn't make any sense. A team-up every now and then because the situation fits, fine. But not a full-time team member.
After the whole Illuminati thing, I don't see him being an Avenger in the near future. However, before all that, he seemed to get along extremely well with the Sentry. With the Sentry around, he may have been able to coexist with the team.

[garin]

Only in for the money, not in for pleasing the customer. And the customer's always right, dammit.Except that "the customer" is not some monolithic entity. It seems really difficult for some people to believe, but plenty of people actually enjoy New Avengers.

[The Shadow]

Yes, sales rise, not because the character is there, but Cap, Thor and Iron man are an essential part of the team, and the book lacks without them.
Cummon... if the sales didn't spike with those guys do you really think they would be the staples they are?

If sales spiked with the sudden and continuing appearance of Rage don't you think he'd be an "essential" part of the team suddenly?

I was refering to the 1998 Heroes Return, which was when quality making the book sell, not because it was a Spiderman or Wolverine comic book.
I don't see the comparrison... Heroes Reborn didn't have any of your sales guests...

The problem is that Marvel is taking the easy way out, not the creative way out.
But what about those people that DO think it's creative, fresh and new?

If they used quality to make a sale, rather than flash, Marvel, would have a solid book. Right now the team is too much flash, and not enough substance.
According to whom?

Bendis on the other hand /snip/ generally plays favorites(his writing of his favorite 70s childhood characters Spider-Woman and Cage
If Bendis was the ONLY one to cherry pick his lineup I'd agree with you... but Whedon got to pick his X-Men, Brubaker has gotten to pick his and so on and so on and so on.

I wouldn't have such a problem with the all flash team, if A) Bendis was a better writer
Better according to whom?

B) the Avengers have never been a book which was traditionally a showcase book, initially it was, yes, but within 4 issues it grew beyond that, when Cap joined.
Yeah... Cap wasn't intended to boost sales.

Ever since it has maintained a tradition of not being a mere showcase book, heck even within 2 issues it stopped being a showcase book, when the Hulk quit. Ever since there's been a couple members without a solo book, and as of this fall, there's only going to be one character on the roster who hasn't even had a recent mini, if not an ongoing. And that's Jarvis.(Well, Ronin too, but she hasn't even appeared again since her arc.)
So... you don't like it because it has popular characters in it that have their own books???

Speaking of which, when was the last time he was in the Avengers book?
I'll admit I don't have a clue... but I don't read the books for Jarvis. Sure he adds the "I'm an Alfred rip off" feel to the book... but other than getting beat up by Hyde almost 20 years ago I've personally not paid him much mind.

I think Joey Q is thinking too much about the ends($$$), and not enough about the means. Shooter, Lee, and the rest thought about the means, and had standards as to how to get there.
Now how do you know ANY of that? Speculation and hyperbole aside do you really think Joe doesn't want creative and good comics at Marvel? Do you really think he wants his legacy to be one of JUST profit?? Cummon.

Heck, Shooter wouldn't even let a gay character/with AIDS appear in a Marvel book, that's how conservative his editing was.
And that was a good thing because...?

And now we got Joey Q. Only in for the money, not in for pleasing the customer. And the customer's always right, dammit.
As garin said above, "It seems really difficult for some people to believe, but plenty of people actually enjoy New Avengers"

[Shellhead]

Your logic seems a bit skewed to me. The Fantastic Four are the Fantastic Four, regardless of any other affiliations the members may have. The only way they would become a subsidiary of the Avengers is if, well, they were made a subsidiary of the Avengers, in the books.

So if Johnny joined the Avengers, and then in a subsequent roster change, Reed, Sue and Ben all ended up back with the Avengers, and everybody else left, you don't think that those four Avengers would look like the Fantastic Four? Do you think that four brown bomber jackets would be enough to turn the core members of the Fantastic Four into the Avengers?

By the way, Luke Cage, Crystal and She-Hulk have all been members of the Fantastic Four, which now makes for *six* heroes who have been on both teams. And yet, if you made those three plus Medusa the stars of the Fantastic Four, fans would drop the title in droves.

[Alan2099]

Well yeah, if the Avengers consisted of nothing but Fantastic Four members they defintley would look like the Fantastic Four.

However if we're dealing with a team that has Captain America, Thor, Ironman, Quicksilver, Wasp, and Hercules and any two members of the FF ended up joining, it would still look like the Avengers. Even better if they ditched the costumes with the big 4s on them.

[DDM]

Except that "the customer" is not some monolithic entity. It seems really difficult for some people to believe, but plenty of people actually enjoy New Avengers.

People enjoyed Rob Liefeld's Youngblood too. It doesn't make it right.

[Shellhead]

Well yeah, if the Avengers consisted of nothing but Fantastic Four members they defintley would look like the Fantastic Four.

However if we're dealing with a team that has Captain America, Thor, Ironman, Quicksilver, Wasp, and Hercules and any two members of the FF ended up joining, it would still look like the Avengers. Even better if they ditched the costumes with the big 4s on them.

Good point. The cover of Avengers #300 looked all kinds of wrong, and part of it was that two of the "Avengers" on the cover were still wearing their Fantastic Four uniforms, complete with the big 4's on their chests:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/05815547774.300.gif

[Alan2099]

True, plus they put both the 4's right next to each other, which automatically makes them look seperate from the rest of the group.

[Kirk G]

Ms. Marvel

[DDM]

Good point. The cover of Avengers #300 looked all kinds of wrong, and part of it was that two of the "Avengers" on the cover were still wearing their Fantastic Four uniforms, complete with the big 4's on their chests:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/05815547774.300.gif


Invisible Woman & Mr. Fantastic kept their Fantastic Four costumes throughout their entire Avengers tenure. It was a weird time for Avengers then.

[Deus ex Chris]

So if Johnny joined the Avengers, and then in a subsequent roster change, Reed, Sue and Ben all ended up back with the Avengers, and everybody else left, you don't think that those four Avengers would look like the Fantastic Four? Do you think that four brown bomber jackets would be enough to turn the core members of the Fantastic Four into the Avengers?
Where did you go with this argument? I don't even know how to respond to this...

[JulianPerez]

Yes, sales rise, not because the character is there, but Cap, Thor and Iron man are an essential part of the team, and the book lacks without them. A good example is Seinfeld spinoffs. None of them have lasted, even though the actors all played very similar characters on their new shows. The problem is, the cast dynamic isn't the same, so they all got canned. Same deal with the Avengers.

Bravo! Excellent insight. I can't think of anything else to add to something so lucid than to say that "group dynamic and interconnectivity" is a big part of many other characters as well, apart from Cap, Thor, and Iron Man: for instance, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision have always improved Avengers dynamic, as has Wonder Man, Hawkeye, and Carol.

I was refering to the 1998 Heroes Return, which was when quality making the book sell, not because it was a Spiderman or Wolverine comic book. The problem is that Marvel is taking the easy way out, not the creative way out. If they used quality to make a sale, rather than flash, Marvel, would have a solid book. Right now the team is too much flash, and not enough substance.

Again, right on the nail.

Bendis on the other hand, stereotypes characters, (i.e. his writing of the Falcon's gangsta/angry black man dialogue in the last issue)and generally plays favorites

He has yet to show real skill for characterization, that's for sure. No writer can entirely avoid "playing favorites," but the trick is to make the character just as likeable to the reader as it is to the writer. An example of this would be the Roger Stern Captain Marvel, who was a Mary Sue, to be sure, but she was a likeable and colorful Mary Sue all the same.

Busiek's favorite is Hawkeye, but Busiek has such a great skill for characterization, and such a sense of warmth and respect for history, that he gets us to like Hawkeye too.

(his writing of his favorite 70s childhood characters Spider-Woman

As much as I like Jessica Drew, there already IS a Spider-Woman in the Avengers. This is the roster selection equivalent of opening a new jar of mustard, when there's already a jar of mustard open in the fridge.

and Cage[who kinda sucked back in the day]).

As much as I loved that tale where he borrows a Pogo-Plane from the Fantastic Four to journey to Latveria, the fact is, Luke Cage, as popular and high profile as he was, really did suck. It's really telling that Steve Englehart, arguably the greatest comics creator that ever lived, could barely elevate the book when he came on it; that book was a talent sucker out of even the greatest people placed on it.

Heck, even when he creates new characters for the book, like Ronin, he's just recycling one of his Daredevil characters.

This is a very interesting point: there's a degree of character "inbreeding" in the Bendis-penned titles which gives them a fundamentally different character than the rest of the Marvel Universe. It was when Jessica Jones showed up in YOUNG AVENGERS that I dropped the book, because it was a signal of it being set in the Bendisverse.

I wouldn't have such a problem with the all flash team, if A) Bendis was a better writer, and B) the Avengers have never been a book which was traditionally a showcase book, initially it was, yes, but within 4 issues it grew beyond that, when Cap joined. Ever since it has maintained a tradition of not being a mere showcase book, heck even within 2 issues it stopped being a showcase book, when the Hulk quit. Ever since there's been a couple members without a solo book, and as of this fall, there's only going to be one character on the roster who hasn't even had a recent mini, if not an ongoing. And that's Jarvis.(Well, Ronin too, but she hasn't even appeared again since her arc.) Speaking of which, when was the last time he was in the Avengers book?

I think Joey Q is thinking too much about the ends($$$), and not enough about the means. Shooter, Lee, and the rest thought about the means, and had standards as to how to get there. Heck, Shooter wouldn't even let a gay character/with AIDS appear in a Marvel book, that's how conservative his editing was. And Lee didn't put Spiderman into his showcase, did he, though he put about every other solo hero into the Avengers back in the day. And now we got Joey Q. Only in for the money, not in for pleasing the customer. And the customer's always right, dammit.

I don't see the comparrison... Heroes Reborn didn't have any of your sales guests...

EXACTLY.

That's the point: the book sold well and was popular (hell, they won the "Reader's Choice" award from Wizard) but they didn't feature ANY flashy guest-stars.

(True, during the story with the Exemplars Spider-Man guest-starred, as he did during the Morgan Conquest, however, he mostly had a cameo, and what's more, wasn't even on the cover.)

But what about those people that DO think it's creative, fresh and new?

They're mistaken. Did we really need a retread of the Magneto/Xorn nonsense, for example? All the things that need a continuity janitor, and they pick something several other people had done?

Yeah... Cap wasn't intended to boost sales.

I doubt he was.

Remember, in the sixties, comics had a high reader turnover rate, and Captain America hadn't been seen for 20 years, which is enough for people to forget him. Cap's name wouldn't have been a selling point at that time. They did it because they thought it would be interesting and because it would be a great decision.

When Golden Age characters were re-introduced to modern times (as they were when Namor returned in FANTASTIC FOUR #4) it was because they felt the characters were interesting and had a lot to offer the current book (such as, for instance, when Namor fell in love with Sue Storm).

If Bendis was the ONLY one to cherry pick his lineup I'd agree with you... but Whedon got to pick his X-Men, Brubaker has gotten to pick his and so on and so on and so on.

I haven't read the Whedon X-Men (though I hear good things), but here's the difference between that, and the purely masturbatory self-referential lineup Bendis selected: when, say Busiek and Perez picked their Avengers, they chose them with factors other than how much they liked them, such as how much they benefitted group dynamic. And they could have stories be about characters other than their favorites: for instance, Ms. Marvel was played as utterly competent not because Busiek pops a chub thinking about her, but because her success would alternate with failures as a part of her long-term story arc. In other words, she got "great moments" not because the writer liked her, but because they needed to happen to be a part of her story.

Busiek has said that his favorite character is Hawkeye. But Hawkeye left the book partway to join the Thunderbolts (because it would be ridiculous to have him on two teams at once - what a bitter irony!), and Hawkeye was given great moments, to be sure, but no more than the other characters.

That's how a professional writes.

You got that right. One's an interesting character, with a long history and some awesome stories behind him. The other is Vance Astro.

Wrong. One is a one-dimensional killer that represents the ugliest aspects of fan wishfulfillment and ugly, unpleasant violence that was receiving hate mail from day one (read the Uncanny lettercols if you don't believe me), who even Dave Cockrum wanted to eliminate, but was only kept on because "Byrne wanted a Canadian."

The other is Vance Astro.

[Haunt]

As much as I like Jessica Drew, there already IS a Spider-Woman in the Avengers. This is the roster selection equivalent of opening a new jar of mustard, when there's already a jar of mustard open in the fridge.


you know that's not true. i don't even like Jessica Drew but i can tell you that Julia Carpenter retired, willingly. i don't think she had any plans of being an Avenger after the West Coast team disbanded.

[DMike]

Heck, even when he creates new characters for the book, like Ronin, he's just recycling one of his Daredevil characters.

Actually, as far as I know, the New Avengers story was the first time Bendis ever wrote Echo. Both of her storylines in Daredevil were written by David Mack, not Bendis.

[JulianPerez]

you know that's not true. i don't even like Jessica Drew but i can tell you that Julia Carpenter retired, willingly. i don't think she had any plans of being an Avenger after the West Coast team disbanded.

Well, it's not like Julia was DEAD or anything like that.

Anyway, it would require much less story gymnastics to have Julia un-retire and get back her position as an Avenger, than it would to have Jessica Drew, who for decades has been a depowered supporting cast member, not only get her powers back (step 1) and then join a team she's never been a part of before (step 2).

[tangentman]

Well, it's not like Julia was DEAD or anything like that.

Anyway, it would require much less story gymnastics to have Julia un-retire and get back her position as an Avenger, than it would to have Jessica Drew, who for decades has been a depowered supporting cast member, not only get her powers back (step 1) and then join a team she's never been a part of before (step 2).

You're overlooking important problems which keep Julia out of the Avengers: first, as previously pointed out, she's retired from full-time superheroics. Julia was interested in raising Rachel, not being an Avenger. Second, Julia was depowered in the set-up to Byrne's Spider-Woman series. We saw Jessica get HER powers back, we never saw that happen with Julia. As far as the MU knows, Julia had never regained her powers.

Now, this will obviously change with the pending CW tie-in story, but at the time of New Avengers, Jessica was more active than Julia. She joined the team hot on the heels of a well-received ALIAS arc. OTOH, nothing with the Julia character outside of a Spider-Girl story. We might indeed have a previously opened jar of mustard on the shelf, but is it any use to Marvel if the mustard went bad? ;)

[Young Avenger]

EXACTLY.

That's the point: the book sold well and was popular (hell, they won the "Reader's Choice" award from Wizard) but they didn't feature ANY flashy guest-stars.

(True, during the story with the Exemplars Spider-Man guest-starred, as he did during the Morgan Conquest, however, he mostly had a cameo, and what's more, wasn't even on the cover.)

If I'm not mistaken, Rob Liefield worked on that book. Anyone would buy a book by Liefield back in the 90s which I believe contribute to the book's popularity.


They're mistaken. Did we really need a retread of the Magneto/Xorn nonsense, for example? All the things that need a continuity janitor, and they pick something several other people had done?

So it's wrong for people to believe that it's creative, fresh and new? Thank you for not respecting those fans who believe differently than you. Also, I hear a lot of crap about how Marvel currently ignores continuity and when Bendis uses it for a story your quick to bite his head off? What gives?


I haven't read the Whedon X-Men (though I hear good things), but here's the difference between that, and the purely masturbatory self-referential lineup Bendis selected: when, say Busiek and Perez picked their Avengers, they chose them with factors other than how much they liked them, such as how much they benefitted group dynamic. And they could have stories be about characters other than their favorites: for instance, Ms. Marvel was played as utterly competent not because Busiek pops a chub thinking about her, but because her success would alternate with failures as a part of her long-term story arc. In other words, she got "great moments" not because the writer liked her, but because they needed to happen to be a part of her story.

Busiek has said that his favorite character is Hawkeye. But Hawkeye left the book partway to join the Thunderbolts (because it would be ridiculous to have him on two teams at once - what a bitter irony!), and Hawkeye was given great moments, to be sure, but no more than the other characters.

That's how a professional writes.

Who's to said that Bendis doesn't have these same intentions?

[Young Avenger]

***Double post***

[overcomebyfumes]

my proposal for worst possible Avengers team:

Cap-Wolf
Man-Thing
Venom
Triathalon
D-Man
Firebird
Silver Claw

Pax.

[DDM]

you know that's not true. i don't even like Jessica Drew but i can tell you that Julia Carpenter retired, willingly. i don't think she had any plans of being an Avenger after the West Coast team disbanded.

Julia Carpenter could have easily come out of her "retirement" given she has vastly different Spider-Woman powers--an psionic web, agility, & an ability to stick to walls--than the original Spider-Woman with her superhuman hearing, strength, agility, ability to stick to walls, & venom blast.

[tangentman]

Julia Carpenter could have easily come out of her "retirement" given she has vastly different Spider-Woman powers--an psionic web, agility, & an ability to stick to walls--than the original Spider-Woman with her superhuman hearing, strength, agility, ability to stick to walls, & venom blast.

However, Julia's powers had been stolen by Charlotte (the evil Spider-Woman) and, as far as anyone knew, had not returned. Jessica regained her powers while Julia was still depowered in the Byrne series. We'll leave it up to Brian Reed to explain how Julia regains her powers in the upcoming Ms. Marvel CW issue.

[Young Avenger]

However, Julia's powers had been stolen by Charlotte (the evil Spider-Woman) and, as far as anyone knew, had not returned. Jessica regained her powers while Julia was still depowered in the Byrne series. We'll leave it up to Brian Reed to explain how Julia regains her powers in the upcoming Ms. Marvel CW issue.

Did the solicits ever mentioned Julia regaining her powers? I believe that Julia is going to resist in the creation of the training programs and perphaps teach the young recruits.

[EmmettHULK]

I haven't read the Whedon X-Men (though I hear good things), but here's the difference between that, and the purely masturbatory self-referential lineup Bendis selected: when, say Busiek and Perez picked their Avengers, they chose them with factors other than how much they liked them, such as how much they benefitted group dynamic. And they could have stories be about characters other than their favorites: for instance, Ms. Marvel was played as utterly competent not because Busiek pops a chub thinking about her, but because her success would alternate with failures as a part of her long-term story arc. In other words, she got "great moments" not because the writer liked her, but because they needed to happen to be a part of her story.

Busiek has said that his favorite character is Hawkeye. But Hawkeye left the book partway to join the Thunderbolts (because it would be ridiculous to have him on two teams at once - what a bitter irony!), and Hawkeye was given great moments, to be sure, but no more than the other characters.

That's how a professional writes.




I frankly used to like and respect your (formerly)intelligent posts, now I see you as yet another obsessive fanboy who can't accept that "his" characters aren't being used or "his" favorite team has been "destroyed"...
Jeez.
The whole thing about Bendis "popping a chub" over Jessica drew, and about him masturbating over his pet characters isn't only disrespectful and rude, it's childish.
Wouldn't you be a little vexed if someone said that YOUR favorites like Dan Slott or Busiek "pop a chub" over She-hulk and "masturbate" to classic Avengers line-ups?

The reality is:No matter how you complain, Marvel will not taylor their books to your personal whims, they will taylor them accordiong to the market and demand.
Seeing how NA has been a consistent top 5, over-100k-copies-a-month seller. thisng won't be changing any time soon.
So get used to it.

[The Shadow]

They're mistaken.
Wow... can you be more condecending in telling me that NA isn't creative when I think (compared to MANY YEARS of classic Avengers tales) it is?

Who the hell are YOU?

I doubt he was.
You need to learn your Marvel history son.

A couple a "Captain America's" appeared in several books but weren't the "real" Cap... Lee was testing the character with the new readers... all the false Cap's appearances sold gangbusters so Lee revived the original in Avengers #4... which was a great seller!

Captain America hadn't been seen for 20 years
Again, history lesson time (you should be paying me for this): Captain America's last appearance was in Captain America Comics #78 in 1954. He reappeared in Avengers #4 in March, 1964. So he was only gone 10 years... NOT 20. And that's not counting the "false" Cap's appearances 2 years prior.

which is enough for people to forget him.
Which is why Lee tried him out first... to great success.

Cap's name wouldn't have been a selling point at that time.
Wanna bet?

They did it because they thought it would be interesting and because it would be a great decision.
Were you there? Do you HONESTLY think Lee wasn't concerened about sales? The better the comics sold the more secure his job was. Don't go looking through your rose coloured glasses and think everything was greener in the past. If the comics didn't sell they would have been cancelled.

Marvel was doubling up on all their books because of their agreement with DC... why do you think there were so many try out characters? The ones that sold well were kept... those that didn't went by the wayside.

It was about sales... don't kid yourself.

When Golden Age characters were re-introduced to modern times (as they were when Namor returned in FANTASTIC FOUR #4) it was because they felt the characters were interesting and had a lot to offer the current book (such as, for instance, when Namor fell in love with Sue Storm).
Again I think you need to join relaity. They were brought because because they had COMMERCIAL APPEAL... not out of some sense of duty to the reader who missed out on the initial adventures.

I haven't read the Whedon X-Men (though I hear good things)
All the good things are true.

but here's the difference between that, and the purely masturbatory self-referential lineup Bendis selected: when, say Busiek and Perez picked their Avengers, they chose them with factors other than how much they liked them, such as how much they benefitted group dynamic.
Where do you come up with this crap? How do you know the process used in selectin the characters vs how Bendis does it? If you have some wire tapping device at Bendis' desk and one at Busiek's let us know... because otherwise everything you have typed here is (say it with me) CONJECTURE! You have no proof that's why the characters were chosen and neither do you have any proof on why Bendis chose his.

Do you honestly believe the stuff you spew?

And they could have stories be about characters other than their favorites: for instance, Ms. Marvel was played as utterly competent not because Busiek pops a chub thinking about her, but because her success would alternate with failures as a part of her long-term story arc. In other words, she got "great moments" not because the writer liked her, but because they needed to happen to be a part of her story.
Yeah... you need to read Whedon's X-Men for this to make sense... but Kitty Pride is now the central figure in Astonishing... she also happens to be Whedon's favorite. Coincidence? I think not. I think she's getting the prominent role because he LIKES her.

Wrong.
According to whom?

One is a one-dimensional killer that represents the ugliest aspects of fan wishfulfillment and ugly, unpleasant violence that was receiving hate mail from day one (read the Uncanny lettercols if you don't believe me), who even Dave Cockrum wanted to eliminate, but was only kept on because "Byrne wanted a Canadian."
Yet he's immensly popular.... go figure.

The other is Vance Astro.
A LOOOOSER.

Let me ask you this... if YOU were a shareholder at Marvel... Who would you want featured in your comics?

Any answer other than the one that begins with "W" is a bold faced and outright lie.

[The Shadow]

Julia Carpenter could have easily come out of her "retirement" given she has vastly different Spider-Woman powers--an psionic web, agility, & an ability to stick to walls--than the original Spider-Woman with her superhuman hearing, strength, agility, ability to stick to walls, & venom blast.
You must have missed this post:

You're overlooking important problems which keep Julia out of the Avengers: first, as previously pointed out, she's retired from full-time superheroics. Julia was interested in raising Rachel, not being an Avenger. Second, Julia was depowered in the set-up to Byrne's Spider-Woman series. We saw Jessica get HER powers back, we never saw that happen with Julia. As far as the MU knows, Julia had never regained her powers.

Now, this will obviously change with the pending CW tie-in story, but at the time of New Avengers, Jessica was more active than Julia. She joined the team hot on the heels of a well-received ALIAS arc. OTOH, nothing with the Julia character outside of a Spider-Girl story. We might indeed have a previously opened jar of mustard on the shelf, but is it any use to Marvel if the mustard went bad? ;)

It would have been just as hard to "unretire" Julia than it was Jessica.

[Leebenhouse]

Cummon... if the sales didn't spike with those guys do you really think they would be the staples they are?

If sales spiked with the sudden and continuing appearance of Rage don't you think he'd be an "essential" part of the team suddenly?

Wow, apparently you hadn't had your morning coffee yet... Cap and Iron Man have been used in the book for how many years now?

When people think Avengers, they think "Cap and Iron Man." Same deal with Superman and his short lived "new powers" Why didn't they stay? Because when people read a Superman book, they want a guy in a red and blue costume, with a cape, Not some energy based guy. That's why the Jackets and Dr. Druid eras sucked, it was the exact same deal.

I don't see the comparrison... Heroes Reborn didn't have any of your sales guests...
I said HeroesRETURN, as in when Busiek and Perez took over, and sales were up. I guess even though you claim to have almost every Avengers book, you don't generally know what you're talking about.


But what about those people that DO think it's creative, fresh and new?

Apparantly they've never heard of the JLA, showcase team which Stan Lee kinda imitated when he first created the Avengers. Both Teams were merely composed of heroes that had individual serials. That was after all, the first book where superheroes truely fought together as a team, since the JSA was more of an anthology series.

According to whom?

Me, that's who, and my opinion is every bit as valuable as yours.

If Bendis was the ONLY one to cherry pick his lineup I'd agree with you... but Whedon got to pick his X-Men, Brubaker has gotten to pick his and so on and so on and so on.

And exactly since when were we talking about the X-men here? This is the Avengers here kiddo.

Better according to whom?

Well, I don't know many of the topics on these boards you read, this thread included, but if you havn't noticed, theres been plenty of folks bitching and moaning about his writing skills. I still buy New Avengers cause I'm an Avengers fan, not a Bendis fan, the same reason you own the Jacket and Dr. Druid eras, they may suck, but they're still the Avengers.

Yeah... Cap wasn't intended to boost sales.

But was he used by Stan Lee in every published title at the time to boost their sales because Cap was so poular that there was a guaranteed fanbas so broad and strong that he would always sell books?

So... you don't like it because it has popular characters in it that have their own books???

No, I don't like it because Bendis is a crappy writer who stereotypes characters, (i.e. his writing of the Falcon's gangsta/angry black man dialogue in the last issue) generally plays favorites,(his writing in of his favorite 70s childhood characters Spider-Woman and Cage[who both kinda sucked back in the day]) is incappable of creating new story ideas, since even when he creates new characters for the book, like Ronin, he's just recycling one of his Daredevil characters, he ignores "intergral characters", like Jarvis, and doesnt and only exacerbates the showcase book aspect by barely refrencing any kind of team dynamic.


I'll admit I don't have a clue... but I don't read the books for Jarvis. Sure he adds the "I'm an Alfred rip off" feel to the book... but other than getting beat up by Hyde almost 20 years ago I've personally not paid him much mind.

Wow, it seems that like many TV pundits, youre unable to acknowledge when someone else is right and you're wrong, as well utterly ignoring your own admissions.

Now how do you know ANY of that? Speculation and hyperbole aside do you really think Joe doesn't want creative and good comics at Marvel? Do you really think he wants his legacy to be one of JUST profit?? Cummon.

Yes. let me put it this way...

Marvel isnt doing this for US... you and I... they are doing it for the $$$.

'Nuff said.

And that was a good thing because...?

That was an example of how Shooter actually controlled the editorial aspect of company, even though it was with a conservative iron fist, unlike Joey Q, who's libertarian editorial style exists solely for $$$ and utterly lacks any sort of creative control. I don't think any other editor would have allowed that Vaj swim in the Wasp/Yellowjacket issue, at least without a MAX warning label. Joey Q. spreads his buttcheeks for whatever any of his creators want, he's like a bad parent who can't bear to let his child cry, so the kid grows up spoiled, hence books are always behind deadlines(Ultimates 2 anyone?), and continuity, whats that now?

The point of everything I'm saying? The Avengers should simply not be a showcase team, made of all the characters from all of Marvel's best selling titles. Back in the day, Wolverine was only an X-man because he was a mutant, and as other folks pointed out, "Byrne wanted a Canadian". So why is he an Avenger? "Uh, Iron Man wanted someone who's willing to kill". Gee, theres a laundry list of Avengers past and present who've done that, so you go for the crazy hairy X-man? REAL smart.


Marvel isnt doing this for US... you and I... they are doing it for the $$$.

Yup... and thats the problem, they don't care about us, only what's in our pocket.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Where do you come up with this crap? How do you know the process used in selectin the characters vs how Bendis does it? If you have some wire tapping device at Bendis' desk and one at Busiek's let us know... because otherwise everything you have typed here is (say it with me) CONJECTURE! You have no proof that's why the characters were chosen and neither do you have any proof on why Bendis chose his.

Do you honestly believe the stuff you spew?


.

I think Julian is part of the herd mentality.
In the sense that he's probably read all the dismissive, derrogatory comments about Bendis having a hard on for Spider-Woman, so he just takes them as true.
(Ironic, since he condenms me, you and any other bendis fan for being sheep...we allegedly like New Avengers only cuz we are following the trend.)
The reality is that if Bendis has hard on for Jessica, then can the same be said for Brubaker and Captain America?
Slott and She-hulk?
Are writers not supposed to use the characters they like in ways that make those characters look good?

The thing is that when Bendis likes a character (Jessica), his notoriety and clout make that character more visible, which in turns makes marvel use her all over, as opposed to Slott, who's critically acclaimed but not a big seller.
If the roles were inverted, and everything Slott touched turned into money, you bet it would be She-hulk who would be making appearances in young Avengers, Runaways, Iron man, getting an Origin miniseries, etc.
And then he would probably also be accused of "popping a chub" for Jennifer Walters or some other nonsense like that, based on unsubstantiated fanboy assumptions...

[reta666]

Agree with the list, wolverine IMO should not be in a team, doc strange is too powerfull for the avengers it would be like the spectre on the JLA. Daredevil shoudnt either, the guy IMO should be hells kitchen and hell's kitchen only

[The Shadow]

Wow, apparently you hadn't had your morning coffee yet...
Never touch the stuff.

Cap and Iron Man have been used in the book for how many years now?
So? They had to start somewhere... and if Cap's early appearances didn't generate a sales spike and if sales didn't drop when he left do you think he would be the mainstay he is today?

I said HeroesRETURN, as in when Busiek and Perez took over, and sales were up.
Yet not as high as New Avengers numbers... hmmmm...

I guess even though you claim to have almost every Avengers book, you don't generally know what you're talking about.
Yes... you caught me... I mis-read your post and thus know nothing of the Avengers. I hang my head in shame at your obvious superiority... :rolleyes:

What's it like not ever mis-reading something or making mistakes?

Me, that's who, and my opinion is every bit as valuable as yours.
I don't even know what I was responding to at this point so I'm just gonna move along...

And exactly since when were we talking about the X-men here? This is the Avengers here kiddo.
Kiddo? Cute.

But I believe the point that was made was Bendis (see we're talking about the Avengers again! Happy?) gets slack for his current lineup because he picks his favorites... yet MANY other writers from those (yes I'm gonna mention em again) X-Men to even (back to the Avengers!) Avengers writers like Busiek. Hell, Perez had input into Busiek's team.

Well, I don't know many of the topics on these boards you read, this thread included, but if you havn't noticed, theres been plenty of folks bitching and moaning about his writing skills.
Pople bicth and moan about Frank Miller, Stan Lee, Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Marv Wolfman, John Byrne, Chris Claremont and so on. The internet just gave everyone a world wide voice to complain with. If Bendis is in that company he MUST be doing something right.

But was he used by Stan Lee in every published title at the time to boost their sales because Cap was so poular that there was a guaranteed fanbas so broad and strong that he would always sell books?
No but his appeal was broad enough that he continues to spike Avengers sales.

Bendis is a crappy writer
Says you.

generally plays favorites,(his writing in of his favorite 70s childhood characters Spider-Woman and Cage[who both kinda sucked back in the day]) is incappable of creating new story ideas, since even when he creates new characters for the book, like Ronin, he's just recycling one of his Daredevil characters, he ignores "intergral characters", like Jarvis, and doesnt and only exacerbates the showcase book aspect by barely refrencing any kind of team dynamic.
HAven't I answered this already?

Wow, it seems that like many TV pundits, youre unable to acknowledge when someone else is right and you're wrong, as well utterly ignoring your own admissions.
... what does THAT have to do with ANYTHING? What was I wrong about? That I wouldn't miss Jarvis? That I think he's an Alfred rip off? How can I be wrong about what I THINK??????? :confused:

unlike Joey Q, who's libertarian editorial style exists solely for $$$ and utterly lacks any sort of creative control.
What about the no somking policy?

I don't think any other editor would have allowed that Vaj swim in the Wasp/Yellowjacket issue, at least without a MAX warning label.
Speculation.

Joey Q. spreads his buttcheeks for whatever any of his creators want, he's like a bad parent who can't bear to let his child cry, so the kid grows up spoiled, hence books are always behind deadlines(Ultimates 2 anyone?), and continuity, whats that now?
First of all... wow... that you think like that... it's truly sad.

And secondly when there IS continuity used (Xorn in NA) people bitch about it. "Why'd he do that?" "blah blah blah blah." Joe can't win.

The Avengers should simply not be a showcase team, made of all the characters from all of Marvel's best selling titles
PLEASE oh PLEASE post me a pic of the top 50 selling issue of Spider Woman, Luke Cage, Ronin... did Sentry crack top 25?

Your theory is shot.

Back in the day, Wolverine was only an X-man because he was a mutant, and as other folks pointed out, "Byrne wanted a Canadian". So why is he an Avenger? "Uh, Iron Man wanted someone who's willing to kill".
Well, it's not like there's not a history of X-Men joining.

Yup... and thats the problem, they don't care about us, only what's in our pocket.
Are you THAT naive? That's all ANY business cares about.

Don't kid yourself. They aren't creating comics or TV shows or movies out of some altruistic motive to make people happy.

If you truely think that you should come and join the real world.

[Leebenhouse]

Y'know, in addendum, it used to make sense that folks like Wolverine, Spiderman, and Punisher were in other people's books as guest stars. They're all solo characters, loners. Spidey was by choice of "responsibility", and Punisher had his vendetta, and Wolverine was this solo wanderer loner outcast, so he could appear from place to place without need for a deus ex machina.

[Will.S]

Though a big fan of New Avengers, I think I would agree that Wolverine is someone who has no place on the Avengers. And not because he's a "loner", which is the biggest b.s. excuse there is regarding the character (who's spent every significant period of his life as part of one group or another).

When you come right down to it, it's because Wolverine kills, and the Avengers don't allow that. I'm not against Wolverine killing - I come down on his side of the argument more than the Avengers' - but THEY are against it.

If Bendis had had a fantastic reason for them allowing him to join, I'd have been swayed. But he didn't. His reason was (from Iron Man, for frig's sake) that having Wolverine on the team would allow him to do the things they wouldn't. Basically, "We don't kill...but, y'know, sometimes we NEED to kill...so we'll have Wolverine do it." That Cap didn't smack Tony upside the head for that astounds me.

Basically, Bendis' reason for having Wolverine on the team (his interaction with the others) is a very good one. He just couldn't make it work storywise, so it should have been avoided. Yeah out of all of the recruitments, Tony's reason for Wolverine to be on the team was never explored so it remains the least convincing. Aside from trying to tag Yelena in the Savage Land, Logan never did anything particularly lethal to anyone or anything that Iron Man described as their missing element.

Most likely Bendis's idea was to have Wolverine do what he did in his Ultimate X-Men run when he took care of that kid who was killing everyone in his town. CW also seems to have had alot to do with that since this team gets disassembled much quicker than anyone expected.

[pharoahe22]

The Avengers are supposed to be earths mightiest heroes. That being said I don't see why Wolverine can't be an Avenger except peoples hatred for him for showing up everywhere. Not a good enough excuse. If you compare him to other Avengers like, say, Triatholon I don't see how Wolverine is not better. And I don't care if they were forced to take Triatholon there are other Avengers you could name.

Doctor Strange would actually bring other types of threats to the Avengers book. The team hasn't had a mystical presense in a very long time and I don't think since Dr. Druid (Scarlet Witch doesn't count). I think it's long past time that everyone stops thinking of Doctor Strange ONLY being with the Defenders if he's part of a team.

Squirrel Girl I have no idea why she even is being brought up.


Too true man. The Avengers are supposed to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". If that's the case, there is no reason in my mind why he shouldn't be on the team. I think a lot of people don't like him because of the way he was whored out, but that that nothing to do with the character. That's was a marketing decision. In my opinion, if you don't read every single book he's in, I don't see why it should matter anyways. I'm a big Wolverine fan, and even I didn't read every book he was in. I'd only read the books he was in that I was getting anyways, so I never saw what the big deal was, especially, when Spiderman, Batman, and Superman all have or appear in just as many books and spin-offs. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Wolverine has saved the world countless times as an X-man, and on his own. He has a sense of nobility and honor that's as strong as anyone who's EVER been a member of the team. There's a couple of arguments as to why he shouldn't be on the team:

1) He uses deadly force, but so have many other Avengers such as Thor, Hercules, Black Knight, Cap, etc. Cap just recently told Daisy Johnson to basically take Magneto out, for the sake of the world. If I had time, I'd give more examples of Avengers killing. What about when HALF the Avengers thought it was the right thing to do to kill the Supreme Intelligence, and it split the team right down the middle. True, Wolverine is a bit of a wild card, but so is Hawkeye. Wolverine does what he thinks is neccessary, and he does kill, but there is a BIG difference between Wolverine and the Punisher. Someone mentioned the Black Widow as a substitute, but she's no where near as powerful as Wolverine. If the fate of the planet was @ stake, who would you rather have, Logan or Natasha? No diss to Black Widow, but she's not really in Wolverine's league.

2) He's an X-man. So? The Fantastic Four are all Avengers too! Wolverine is the biggest gun that the X-men have. he deserves to be on the team. In all actuality, I'd like to see him on the Avengers more than the X-men, cause it gives him a chance to be around characters he doesn't interact with as often.

Marvel actually said that their biggest heroes were:

Cap, Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider Man, Hulk, Thor, Silver Surfer, and Dr. Strange. Those are Marvel's BIG GUNS. They should ALL have membership in Earth's Mightiest, save for the Surfer, cause he's not really Earth based lol. He should maybe be a reserve member though. And Dr. Strange has bigger duties, so I think he should have reserve status as well.

Anyways, I'm starting to babble a bit, but in my mind, anyone who's willing to go one on one with Galactus lol, and has saved the world many times, on his own and with help (He actually saved the Universe once, and allowed man to reach the next stage in evolution), and is willing to risk his life to save other is Avengers material. Just my thoughts...I'll elaborate on any point I have, cause I have a lotta thoughts about this topic. :)

[overcomebyfumes]

Just to jump in the spewing venom for no good reason -

Stupid Question #1 - It seems to me that there are people on the internet who claim to utterly hate and despise the New Avengers, but yet are completely up to date with what in going on in the book. ALMOST AS IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY READING IT. Why would you subject yourself to something you despise so much? Why bother ranting about it? Let the folks what enjoy the book enjoy it, and read something else if you don't.

Personally, I'm enjoying the New Avengers for what it is. I mean, sure I have criticisms. Bendis IS, in fact, a crappy writer**; but without crappy writers, where the hell would comics be? Stan Lee wasn't exactly Shakespere, you know. Sure, the FF was fantastic, but try reading Ant-Man or the early Iron Man stuff. Ugh. There was a reason X-Men was cancelled the first time around. It SUCKED.

Stupid Question #2 - The Avengers, since the beginning, have been all about the changing roster. Hulk out in issue #2, Cap joins in #4, complete shake-up in issue #16 with everyone leaving but Cap and then Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver. Then Hercules and the Black Widow join, then Hank and Jan are back on the team... it goes on and on. Sure, not everyone likes this current incarnation, but there have been worse ones. Does anyone want Triathalon back on the team? Or Silver Claw? I don't think so.

But my point - with change being pretty much a basic fact of the Avenger's existance, why would anyone be surprised when the team changes? It will change again, too. We are not locked into this particular team of Avengers until the end of time. There'll be a new roster, and pretty soon too, if I understand the ramifications of "Civil War".

--------------------------------------------------

** Bendis and crappy writing - Bendis has pretty much stolen everything he knows about writing from David Mamet. I kinda wish that, if this is the kind of writing that Marvel wants, they would just cut out the middle-man and hire Mamet instead. In addition, he relies far too heavily on the deus-ex-machina ("Disassembled" featured TWO!! I think that was the first time I've ever actually seen that! Stunningly bad.)

Now this doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed any Bendis stories. I think his run on Daredevil was utterly fantastic - probably the best since Frank Miller. But I have no illusions about him actually being a "good" writer.

Pax. Don't hurt me.

[Leebenhouse]

Theres a difference between a thief and a business man, one wants your money so bad the breaks into your house, another gives you something you want. Which one is worse? Marvel is looking to much at the ends and not enough at the means. It makes me sick that they chose to become mindless in the pursuit of fortunes, rather than honest. New Avengers is this decades equivalent of the early 90's X-glut, it has just enough substance that everyone buys it, but not enough to be richly enjoyed.

As for hating on Stan Lee and the rest... Look at how common hating is on somebody, if you're going to be obtuse about it, yeah there's hate ons for them, but there's a LOT more hate ons for Bendis and Co. Heck, there's stuff by everyone on that list people like, but look at the ratio of hate to love there. Not very "fair and balanced" eh?

I think that an editor's job is the process is to keep things in check, and if they aren't keeping things in check, what's the point of an editor?

I'm staying out of trollville for the rest of this business. Good day.

'Nuff said.

[Young Avenger]

Yup... and thats the problem, they don't care about us, only what's in our pocket.

Just like all businesses around the world. Why even bring it up?

[Haunt]

I think Julian is part of the herd mentality.
In the sense that he's probably read all the dismissive, derrogatory comments about Bendis having a hard on for Spider-Woman, so he just takes them as true.
(Ironic, since he condenms me, you and any other bendis fan for being sheep...we allegedly like New Avengers only cuz we are following the trend.)
The reality is that if Bendis has hard on for Jessica, then can the same be said for Brubaker and Captain America?
Slott and She-hulk?
Are writers not supposed to use the characters they like in ways that make those characters look good?.

no problem with that. it's when those same writers will pick characters they don't like and destroy them that's troublesome. that's what Bendis is. he's a destroyer. just the fact that he likes Spiderwoman should trouble you.

[The Shadow]

Theres a difference between a thief and a business man, one wants your money so bad the breaks into your house, another gives you something you want.
Anything after the word "want" should be "but it all comes down to PERSPECTIVE! I don't think Joe's a thief at all... in fact he's revitalized my interest of Marvel from his days as head of Marvel Knights. YOU think he's a thief (because of your inability to move on) and thus it all comes down to your perspective.

Marvel is looking to much at the ends and not enough at the means. It makes me sick that they chose to become mindless in the pursuit of fortunes, rather than honest.
Again with the naievity.

New Avengers is this decades equivalent of the early 90's X-glut
Yeah... they're comparable... from the onslaught on mega crossovers to multiple X titles to the rest of the X family of team books. Yep... New Avengers is definatly glutting the market. :rolleyes:

it has just enough substance that everyone buys it, but not enough to be richly enjoyed.
If you don't like it don't buy it. I find it richly enjoying.

As for hating on Stan Lee and the rest... Look at how common hating is on somebody, if you're going to be obtuse about it, yeah there's hate ons for them, but there's a LOT more hate ons for Bendis and Co.
Sure... because Bendis is at the top. If Slott replaced him as Marvel's preeminient writer the venom would shoot at Dan. It's happening to DC's golden boy Geoff Johns now.

Heck, there's stuff by everyone on that list people like, but look at the ratio of hate to love there. Not very "fair and balanced" eh?
You are ratioing it? I wouldn't have thought you'd waste your time with someone you don't like!

I'm staying out of trollville for the rest of this business. Good day.
Trollville? Is that the thread you are activly participating in? Surely you aren't taking the high and mighty road.

So long.

Enjoy New avengers.

[The Shadow]

. just the fact that he likes Spiderwoman should trouble you.
Why? I like her.

If Bendis likes her it means she's safe.

[The Mirrorball Man]

** Bendis and crappy writing - Bendis has pretty much stolen everything he knows about writing from David Mamet.
Me, I'm just happy that there's a comic book writer out there who has even heard of David Mamet. ;)

[Haunt]

Why? I like her.

If Bendis likes her it means she's safe.


ok, i amend my last statement. just the fact that Shadow likes Spiderwoman should trouble you.

[The Shadow]

ok, i amend my last statement. just the fact that Shadow likes Spiderwoman should trouble you.
Better.

Much better.

:D

[bfrank]

regarding the HR Avengers: I'd say the George Perez and Kurt B were a bigger draw than the characters....

regarding killing: has wolverine killed an actual avenger, like Iron Man has?

[The Shadow]

regarding killing: has wolverine killed an actual avenger, like Iron Man has?
Who did Iron Man kill? And it was an AVENGER?????

[Young Avenger]

Who did Iron Man kill? And it was an AVENGER?????

I remember Haunt posting a list of characters who Iron Man killed. One of the characters listed being Yellowjacket II.

[The Shadow]

I remember Haunt posting a list of characters who Iron Man killed. One of the characters listed being Yellowjacket II.
Huh.

I don't remember that.

[Alan2099]

That was during the crossing when Ironman went insane and was replaced by his teeange self.

[Leebenhouse]

It was in the Crossing, better left forgotten, as Busiek retconned it away with a backup in one of his annuals. Dealt with the whole Teen Tony/Evil old Tony.

[DDM]

However, Julia's powers had been stolen by Charlotte (the evil Spider-Woman) and, as far as anyone knew, had not returned. Jessica regained her powers while Julia was still depowered in the Byrne series. We'll leave it up to Brian Reed to explain how Julia regains her powers in the upcoming Ms. Marvel CW issue.


Not a problem. Julia Carpenter would appear as Spider-Woman with her powers. The contradiction of her once stolen powers would make for a good story arc or an ongoing subplot to build up & be resolved eventually.

[The Shadow]

Not a problem. Julia Carpenter would appear as Spider-Woman with her powers. The contradiction of her once stolen powers would make for a good story arc or an ongoing subplot to build up & be resolved eventually.
But... isn't that what they did with Drew?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Not a problem. Julia Carpenter would appear as Spider-Woman with her powers. The contradiction of her once stolen powers would make for a good story arc or an ongoing subplot to build up & be resolved eventually.


Bad news for fans of Julia Carpenter:

S


P

O

I

L

E

R

S

AVENGERS FOREVER-I think every good hero needs a nemesis. With that said, when will we start seeing this new and scary-powerful rogue gallery you have planned?

BRIAN REED-"In the CIVIL WAR tie in issues, we give Carol a new enemy: ex-Avenger Julia Carpenter. I think this is probably going to make a few people angry, especially since when we announced "guest starring Julia 'Arachne' Carpenter", the first post I saw online was "I've been waiting to see her back in action in the Marvel Universe!" It's a time where I'm really excited to see how the fans take it all in, because it was one of those moments where I wrote it and thought "they'll never let me do that" and then the first thing I hear back from Andy is how much he liked it."



Actually, I don't mind personally...but I know many people will not like this...

[Haunt]

so, the question then becomes, "Where's Rachel?"

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

so, the question then becomes, "Where's Rachel?"


Maybe Rachel will die accidentally during a Julia/Carol confrontation, and Julia will become a sworn enemy to Carol...
Or maybe Rachel will join the New Avengers...?

[Beyond The Beyonder]

I disagree with the idea that any character should never become an Avengers under any circumstances. I know Marvel fans tend to resist change, but stories evolve overtime, and under the right writer, any character can change. And the nature of the Avengers itself could change. In fact, after Civil War, it probably will, and half the team members right now will be completely out of place on it! And someday they'll probably fit perfectly again.

Someday Frank Castle could fit perfectly, if his story transformed to the point where it'd be appropriate. Who knows? I don't even like the Punisher; I'm just using him as an example. Nothing's set in stone.

[Brandon McKinnis]

I disagree with the idea that any character should never become an Avengers under any circumstances. I know Marvel fans tend to resist change, but stories evolve overtime, and under the right writer, any character can change. And the nature of the Avengers itself could change. In fact, after Civil War, it probably will, and half the team members right now will be completely out of place on it! And someday they'll probably fit perfectly again.

Someday Frank Castle could fit perfectly, if his story transformed to the point where it'd be appropriate. Who knows? I don't even like the Punisher; I'm just using him as an example. Nothing's set in stone.


Sustained.

[Haunt]

I disagree with the idea that any character should never become an Avengers under any circumstances. I know Marvel fans tend to resist change, but stories evolve overtime, and under the right writer, any character can change.

Howard the Duck can not change enough to be worthy of Avengers membership.

[DDM]

I disagree with the idea that any character should never become an Avengers under any circumstances. I know Marvel fans tend to resist change, but stories evolve overtime, and under the right writer, any character can change. And the nature of the Avengers itself could change. In fact, after Civil War, it probably will, and half the team members right now will be completely out of place on it! And someday they'll probably fit perfectly again.

Someday Frank Castle could fit perfectly, if his story transformed to the point where it'd be appropriate. Who knows? I don't even like the Punisher; I'm just using him as an example. Nothing's set in stone.


Howard the Duck
Punisher
Squirrel Girl
Glamor
Ghost Rider
Captain Ultra

Okay, how exactly will this cast make credible Avengers? They won't. Howard the Duck comes from another dimension. Jarvis might want to cook his goose. The Punisher will want to shoot & kill any villain. Ghost Rider is a demon. Captain Ultra faints at the sight of fire. Oh, Squirrel Girl controls squirrels. Glamor is still dead.

[Deadpooligan]

As much as I like Deadpool and Cable, they should never become Avengers. Same goes for Spidey,Logan and The Fantastic 4.

I completely agree.

Why not Spidey? Whenever he's had a team up, he's had a cold or some injury than made him whine far worse than Silver Surfer. (Like in Maximum Carnage, which was still very good, IMO.)

Why not Wolvie? In the wake of House of M and Deadly Genesis and the comeback of the Hellfire Club and the return of Nuke, the X-Men and the government need a serious brawler. The Avengers don't need to kill.

Why not Deadpool? Wait...why not Deadpool?? I mean he's- *gets cut off*

[Edward J Cunningham]

The one character I do not think can join the Avengers is the Hulk. This isn't because "THE HULK SUCKS!!!! I HATE HIM!!!!". On the contrary, the Hulk is one of my favorite characters and is one of the best characters Marvel has created. But by his very nature, the Hulk does not "play well with others" and frequently turns even on his closest friends. He can ally himself briefly with the Avengers, but is too unreliable to remain on the team. In fact, I would argue that although the Hulk is credited as being a founding member of the Avengers, he never really was an Avenger to begin with---he just fought alongside some heroes who would later become Avengers.

Marvel could decide to make him a regular member of the team, but to do so would require changing the character drastically. If Bendis! were to do so and at the same time not lose too much of the Hulk's "hulkness", then bravo lingas. "Planet Hulk" suggests Marvel thinks that Hulk is better off in his traditional role as outcast and fugitive.

Eddie Cunningham

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/eddiejc1/New_Fem_Four.gif (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/femfour/)

[The Shadow]

Howard the Duck
Punisher
Squirrel Girl
Glamor
Ghost Rider
Captain Ultra

Okay, how exactly will this cast make credible Avengers? They won't.
With Captain America leading them? Dam straight they will!

In fact I hope Dan Slott is reading this and uses his Mighty Marvel Muscle to write a What if...? story with this cast!

Howard the Duck comes from another dimension.
... So? When have the Avengers not accepted someone based on their place of origin?

The Punisher will want to shoot & kill any villain.
Works fine with Wolverine... so why not? ;)

Ghost Rider is a demon.
... So? Wasn't Damien Hellstorm a West Coast Avenger? Isn't he a demon?

Captain Ultra faints at the sight of fire.
Just don't smoke around him!

Oh, Squirrel Girl controls squirrels.
Who would see THAT coming?

Glamor is still dead.
So was Wonder Man and many MANY other Marvel characters. Death means nothing now. Just give it some time!

[Shem the Penman]

Why would the Avengers not want Squirrel Girl? She beat Thanos solo, for crying out loud. Ultron probably wouldn't even make her break a sweat.

[Haunt]

Why would the Avengers not want Squirrel Girl?


because she has a nut pouch.

[DDM]

Why would the Avengers not want Squirrel Girl? She beat Thanos solo, for crying out loud. Ultron probably wouldn't even make her break a sweat.

Squirrel Girl is written as a joke. In a real battle, Thanos would have Squirrel dead before she even made a move.

[Beyond The Beyonder]

{{{Squirrel Girl is written as a joke. In a real battle, Thanos would have Squirrel dead before she even made a move.}}}

No, in a real battle, both characters dissolve into nothingness.

They're imaginary.

And a good writer's imagination can take a character anywhere. Even into the Avengers. Even Thanos could be written into the Avengers if a writer felt a passion to do that and wrote it inventively enough. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Starlin tries to do that someday.

[The Shadow]

And a good writer's imagination can take a character anywhere. Even into the Avengers. Even Thanos could be written into the Avengers if a writer felt a passion to do that and wrote it inventively enough. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Starlin tries to do that someday.
Zing!

Nice post.

DDM selectivly responds to posts. He completely ignored mine and will likely ignore this one... but you made a helluva good point!

[Alan2099]

Squirrel Girl is written as a joke. In a real battle, Thanos would have Squirrel dead before she even made a move.
And being written as a joke makes a character no less canon than one that's taken "seriously".

In either case, they're written they way they are. If you want to say they shouldn't be written the way they are, you might as well not even use the same characters.

[Haunt]

{{{Squirrel Girl is written as a joke. In a real battle, Thanos would have Squirrel dead before she even made a move.}}}

No, in a real battle, both characters dissolve into nothingness.

They're imaginary.

And a good writer's imagination can take a character anywhere. Even into the Avengers. Even Thanos could be written into the Avengers if a writer felt a passion to do that and wrote it inventively enough. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Starlin tries to do that someday.


Thanos is a good character. a decent writer could make him fit in an Avengers lineup. same with the Super-Skrull. Squirrel Girl, on the other hand, doesn't have a squirrel's chance in hell of making it.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Thanos is a good character. a decent writer could make him fit in an Avengers lineup. same with the Super-Skrull. Squirrel Girl, on the other hand, doesn't have a squirrel's chance in hell of making it.

Unless Stark outfits her as "Iron-Squirell".

[Bobster777]

Thanos is a good character. a decent writer could make him fit in an Avengers lineup. same with the Super-Skrull. Squirrel Girl, on the other hand, doesn't have a squirrel's chance in hell of making it.
Super Skrull, maybe. I see the character as redeemable. However, TPTB of Avengers is just overreaching if they try to ever make Thanos a member, unless he is reborn with a clean slate or something like that. The guy has killed millions if not billions. Someone like that should be locked up and not be included in a super hero team. I agree with you that it might be interesting, but I just wouldn't be able to agree with the reasoning of bringing him onto the team.

[Haunt]

Super Skrull, maybe. I see the character as redeemable. However, TPTB of Avengers is just overreaching if they try to ever make Thanos a member, unless he is reborn with a clean slate or something like that. The guy has killed millions if not billions. Someone like that should be locked up and not be included in a super hero team. I agree with you that it might be interesting, but I just wouldn't be able to agree with the reasoning of bringing him onto the team.


fair enough. :)

[Brandon McKinnis]

Unless he was really, really sorry.

[Alan2099]

Howard the Duck
Punisher
Squirrel Girl
Glamor
Ghost Rider
Captain Ultra

Okay, how exactly will this cast make credible Avengers? They won't.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Just when I think you can't get any dumber you do something like this...and totally redeem yourself. j/k

That pic is awesome.

[DMike]

Dumb question: Who's Glamor?

[Haunt]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.

oh yeah. who would want to miss out on Squirrel Girl's fur costume bursting into flames? look at how close she is to Ghost Rider.

[DDM]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.

Only if Steve Gerber wrote it.

[Jake V]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.
I'd buy the **** out of that.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Only if Steve Gerber wrote it.


So then...you'd actually be buying an issue of New Avengers...*Gasp*

[Haunt]

I'd buy the **** out of that.


yeah, well you're a New Avengers fan.

[Leebenhouse]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.
Now THAT is what I call an Avengers roster!!!

Great Lakes New Avengers.... Howdya like that?

[Will.S]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.
Good stuff.

[Young Avenger]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4131/new5bw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Admit it. You'd buy it.

I would kill to get that issue.

[Bobster777]

Yes, I've been waiting for such a long time to see Thor vs. the Duck. :p

[the invincible ironfran-cis]

Although honestly, I can't really see Ghost Rider as part of any team of heroes, he was once part of the so-called new FF.

[DDM]

So then...you'd actually be buying an issue of New Avengers...*Gasp*


Steve Gerber created Howard the Duck, Hellcow, Doctor Bong, the Headmen, etc al. I would think Gerber might treat those "Avengers" as in-jokes & commentary as he did with Howard the Duck. The "Avengers" could fight a new "Masters of Evil" made up of Hellcow, Doctor Bong, & the Headmen.

[The Shadow]

Steve Gerber created Howard the Duck, Hellcow, Doctor Bong, the Headmen, etc al. I would think Gerber might treat those "Avengers" as in-jokes & commentary as he did with Howard the Duck. The "Avengers" could fight a new "Masters of Evil" made up of Hellcow, Doctor Bong, & the Headmen.
Sounds fun, interesting, new and original.

Get Slott to write it or better yet... BENDIS!!!!

[DDM]

Sounds fun, interesting, new and original.

Get Slott to write it or better yet... BENDIS!!!!

Dan Slott? Maybe. Brian Michael Bendis? No way. Steve Gerber would be my number 1 choice though.

[Alan2099]

Definetley not Bendis, Gerber would be great, Slott or Kirkman would also pull it off, but I just don't trust Bendis to be able to handle those types.

Although it would give him an actual real reason to have guest stars show up and save the team every story arc. :D

[Tommy]

You know I hate to bring this thread back on topic, but I agree with Julian in this instance.

The reason Spider-Man, the Avengers, The Fantastic Four, whomever have lasted this long is because they aren't really characters any more. They are a formula.

Change too many variables and you have a different formula. And while your new formula might be good, really how likely is it to be better than Spider-man?

[DDM]

Deathcry. She can die...

And burn in hell.

Even Busiek didn't work her into any of his stuff.

I believe Deathcry is Bob Harras' sad attempt to copy Chris Claremont's Deathbird character.

[JulianPerez]

No, in a real battle, both characters dissolve into nothingness.

They're imaginary.

Okay, yeah, sure, we all know that it's all a fun puppet show in cartoon form, but here's the thing: it's not supposed to feel that way. Concessions should be made to verisimilitude.

Things cannot come and go at the convenience of a writer just because it is a fantasy element. Writing in a universe with established characters requires a degree of professionalism; namely, keeping characterizations consistent with what we previously know characters to behave. If the Avengers have a Warning Sign to the Negative Zone, they should be involved every time something comes up with the Negative Zone, for instance.

You know I hate to bring this thread back on topic, but I agree with Julian in this instance.

The reason Spider-Man, the Avengers, The Fantastic Four, whomever have lasted this long is because they aren't really characters any more. They are a formula.

Change too many variables and you have a different formula. And while your new formula might be good, really how likely is it to be better than Spider-man?

Very well put!

This is ultimately why fans make the best writers in a serial medium like comics (Kurt Busiek, Roy Thomas, Paul Levitz): 1) they have an intimate understanding of the material, 2) the characters to them are familiar, and 3) they approach it with the reverence due anything that a lot of people like.

There is an expression about a broom: change the head and the handle enough times, and you don't have the same broom anymore. Change for the Avengers, is welcome - as long as it is organic and gradual. This isn't about "fear of change" or any such nonsense: it's understanding that the reason things work is for a REASON. The presence of this or that is there for a REASON.

The Avengers have a character as a book that is very different from the character of, say, the X-Men, and the roster can be altered, there are some choices that alter the fundamental nature of the book itself to unrecognizability.

All this boils down to a single point: AVENGERS stories should ONLY be Avengers stories. There is something wrong if a story could be about ANY OTHER NAME and the story wouldn't have to be changed.

[Brian Cronin]

How exactly, though, do you expect a team's formation to be "logical," when the very first first Avengers team included a member who the other members specifically banded together to FIGHT AGAINST!

The idea of "a bunch of heroes team up for a mission and decide to band together, even though one member might not logically fit in" is exactly the same premise that the original Avengers team formed under.

However, while he drew inspiration from the original Avengers formation, what I especially like about Bendis' beginning of the new run was the fact that he made is absolutely clear that this is not a continuation of the old Avengers.

That way, he did not have to be beholden to any structure put into place beforehand. This team could truly be the New Avengers, and could proceed however the new writer wanted to take the book, and so suddenly characters who would never, ever be Avengers, ever, under the old structure, could suddenly find themselves quite freely becoming members of the NEW Avengers, because the same system that was in place beforehand that would make some character not fit in, no longer exists.

A very clever move by Bendis, that very nicely cuts himself off from criticisms that particular characters don't make sense as members, which I'm sure he anticipated when he came up with his new roster.

-Brian

[Haunt]

How exactly, though, do you expect a team's formation to be "logical," when the very first first Avengers team included a member who the other members specifically banded together to FIGHT AGAINST!

The idea of "a bunch of heroes team up for a mission and decide to band together, even though one member might not logically fit in" is exactly the same premise that the original Avengers team formed under.

However, while he drew inspiration from the original Avengers formation, what I especially like about Bendis' beginning of the new run was the fact that he made is absolutely clear that this is not a continuation of the old Avengers.

That way, he did not have to be beholden to any structure put into place beforehand. This team could truly be the New Avengers, and could proceed however the new writer wanted to take the book, and so suddenly characters who would never, ever be Avengers, ever, under the old structure, could suddenly find themselves quite freely becoming members of the NEW Avengers, because the same system that was in place beforehand that would make some character not fit in, no longer exists.

A very clever move by Bendis, that very nicely cuts himself off from criticisms that particular characters don't make sense as members, which I'm sure he anticipated when he came up with his new roster.

-Brian


yeah, he really cut himself off from criticism.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Still, I agree, as I've stated before, since Disassembled there is no Avengers charter.

[DDM]

Still, I agree, as I've stated before, since Disassembled there is no Avengers charter.


Then the "New Avengers" should not go by the Avengers name. The New Avengers is really the Poor Man's Defenders or The Champions of New York City.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Then the "New Avengers" should not go by the Avengers name. The New Avengers is really the Poor Man's Defenders or The Champions of New York City.

I call them the Avengers...but your point is definitely valid.

[Young Avenger]

Then the "New Avengers" should not go by the Avengers name. The New Avengers is really the Poor Man's Defenders or The Champions of New York City.

The thing is, you can't call them the Defenders or the Champions because the New Avengers ain't a loosely organized team with randomly selected heroes.

[Brian Cronin]

They could go by the Defenders or the Champions or any number of disbanded team names.

They decided to go by the name of a different disbanded team - the Avengers.

And since there is no one to say they can't do so, they get to use the name (and to highlight the fact that they have a new structure, note the scene where Captain America expressly tells SHIELD he is forming a new team, which is his right, according to SHIELD regulations).

Essentially, this Avengers team is as connected to previous Avengers teams as Justice League International is connected to the previous Justice League of America.

Which is to say, not connected at all.

-Brian

[Alan2099]

Why not bring back the name Force Works. It was a branch of the Avengers that decided to rebel and do things their own way to begin with.

[Brian Cronin]

That would make sense, if the other Avengers were still around.

But since there was no Avengers team, they put the name to use.

Similar to the New Invaders or New Excalibur or Peter David's X-Factor.

-Brian

[The Shadow]

Then the "New Avengers" should not go by the Avengers name. The New Avengers is really the Poor Man's Defenders or The Champions of New York City.
So... were they not the Avengers BEFORE they had the charter?

Does the charter truely define the team? I would have thought it the teams actions as opposed to a list of rules. Huh.

[Alan2099]

That would make sense, if the other Avengers were still around.

But since there was no Avengers team, they put the name to use.

Similar to the New Invaders or New Excalibur or Peter David's X-Factor.

-Brian
Sorry. Got my topics mixed up. I thought we were talking about the Ironman/Captain America splitting into two different teams thing. My fault. All my fault. :(

[Brian Cronin]

No prob. :)

-Brian

[Jake V]

How exactly, though, do you expect a team's formation to be "logical," when the very first first Avengers team included a member who the other members specifically banded together to FIGHT AGAINST!

The idea of "a bunch of heroes team up for a mission and decide to band together, even though one member might not logically fit in" is exactly the same premise that the original Avengers team formed under.

However, while he drew inspiration from the original Avengers formation, what I especially like about Bendis' beginning of the new run was the fact that he made is absolutely clear that this is not a continuation of the old Avengers.

That way, he did not have to be beholden to any structure put into place beforehand. This team could truly be the New Avengers, and could proceed however the new writer wanted to take the book, and so suddenly characters who would never, ever be Avengers, ever, under the old structure, could suddenly find themselves quite freely becoming members of the NEW Avengers, because the same system that was in place beforehand that would make some character not fit in, no longer exists.

A very clever move by Bendis, that very nicely cuts himself off from criticisms that particular characters don't make sense as members, which I'm sure he anticipated when he came up with his new roster.

-Brian
You're right, that was a good move by Bendis. He clearly understood what the response was going to be, so he went out of way to make sure that it fit into continuity by highlighting that it is a brand-new team.

While he didn't exactly cut himself off from all criticisms, he was able to forsee what the reaction from the older fans would be, and found an in-story way to be immune from it.

[Haunt]

You're right, that was a good move by Bendis. He clearly understood what the response was going to be, so he went out of way to make sure that it fit into continuity by highlighting that it is a brand-new team.

While he didn't exactly cut himself off from all criticisms, he was able to forsee what the reaction from the older fans would be, and found an in-story way to be immune from it.


you're kidding right? was this really the biggest or most important criticism? as it has already been stated, there is nothing unusual about the Avengers bringing new characters into the fold. the New Avengers team, on the surface, isn't any different from any past lineup. the criticism was that Bendis decided that he only way to bring in his team was to destroy old members; smear their name. in effect he basically dissed Kirby and Lee; "your avengers are a bunch of jobbers. so i'm making my New Avengers." and he even had the nerve to pin the blame for Disassembled on the Avengers, themselves. supposedly they didn't attend to Wanda's (newly created) craziness. supposedly they didn't look after their own. Bendis didn't insulate himself from criticism. he, basically, picked a fight and then ran to his older brother (Quesada).

[Jeff-E]

I wonder if this is the same reaction people had when Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarletwitch joined the team?

[Will.S]

I wonder if this is the same reaction people had when Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarletwitch joined the team?
Heh, this always reminds me of "What huh?"

[EmmettHULK]

you're kidding right? was this really the biggest or most important criticism? as it has already been stated, there is nothing unusual about the Avengers bringing new characters into the fold. the New Avengers team, on the surface, isn't any different from any past lineup. the criticism was that Bendis decided that he only way to bring in his team was to destroy old members; smear their name. in effect he basically dissed Kirby and Lee; "your avengers are a bunch of jobbers. so i'm making my New Avengers." and he even had the nerve to pin the blame for Disassembled on the Avengers, themselves. supposedly they didn't attend to Wanda's (newly created) craziness. supposedly they didn't look after their own. Bendis didn't insulate himself from criticism. he, basically, picked a fight and then ran to his older brother (Quesada).


Yawn.

Same ole, same ole.

And while fanboys bitch and moan, the "crappy" lineup Bendis came up with keeps selling like gangbusters...

[Tommy]

I wonder if this is the same reaction people had when Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarletwitch joined the team?
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1993/avengersletters10xo.jpghttp://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9497/avengersletters28fw.jpg

[Will.S]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1993/avengersletters10xo.jpghttp://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9497/avengersletters28fw.jpg
Oh man that is just so freaking funny, it's like the CBR boards but.....much longer ago.

What's even funnier is how Stan and Don just roll with it.

[Tommy]

Oh man that is just so freaking funny, it's like the CBR boards but.....much longer ago.

What's even funnier is how Stan and Don just roll with it.
I just love how one person wanted to kick out Captain America and bring back the Hulk.

Oh and the guy who was complaining about Giant Man's hat.

[garin]

Man, that's great stuff.

What are you? Out of your tree or something? What have you got against Iron man, Giant-Man and Thor in AVENGERS #16? The Avengers aren't just any group of super-heroes whom you choose to call the Avengers. They have come to mean the greatest, most powerful and noblest of all.Spooky.

[Haunt]

Yawn.

Same ole, same ole.

And while fanboys bitch and moan, the "crappy" lineup Bendis came up with keeps selling like gangbusters...

Spiderman and Wolverine; marketable? get outta here! btw, isn't the team being disassembled?

[DDM]

Spiderman and Wolverine; marketable? get outta here! btw, isn't the team being disassembled?

I'll be shocked if the Scarlet Witch, Layla Miller, &/or Doctor Strange is not involved in the story. Bendis must have his deus ex machinas to crank out his plotholes.

[The Shadow]

I'll be shocked if the Scarlet Witch, Layla Miller, &/or Doctor Strange is not involved in the story. Bendis must have his deus ex machinas to crank out his plotholes.
This quote is appropriate...

Yawn.

Same ole, same ole.
I notice you didn't address a single good point Brian made... your selective posting really causes your credibility to suffer. You have the knowledge I'll give you that... but when someone makes a good point you ignore it and shoot out a good Bendis jab instead. :rolleyes:

[spidervenom]

for me its the punisher

[PrimalScream]

fantastic four. okay maybe just one of them but not all four.

[Tommy]

fantastic four. okay maybe just one of them but not all four.
Tiny Fact: Seven members of the Fantastic Four have also served as Avengers.

Now whether they should have is open to debate.

[Agentum]

I hated when Moon Knight was in West Coast Avengers, and i don't like Spider-man being in new Avengers.
Those character is best on their own.

[PrimalScream]

Tiny Fact: Seven members of the Fantastic Four have also served as Avengers.

Now whether they should have is open to debate.

yeah but i did mean the four original shouldn't have been avengers. it's okay if she-hulk is.

[Shellhead]

Tiny Fact: Seven members of the Fantastic Four have also served as Avengers.

Now whether they should have is open to debate.

Make that a total of *ten* if you count the New Fantastic Four of FF issues #347-349:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/30929984076.348.gif

[Shyft]

i really liked the New Avengers line up. although i was very surprised to see Spider-Man and Wolverine on the line up, i really thought they gelled well! God knows what will happen after Civil War, but lets assume Spider-Man and Wolverine leave ( i cant see either of them being long-term members) i think Cap, Iron-Man, Luke Cage, Sentry, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel and Echo/Ronin would be a cool line up. But as i said, Civil War will probably change everything!

[Jeremy A. Patterson]

The Art Adams new FF poked fun at the fact that Spider-Man, Hulk, Wolverine, & Ghost Rider were Marvel's most overexposed heroes of the time!


J.A.P.

[Haunt]

I hated when Moon Knight was in West Coast Avengers, and i don't like Spider-man being in new Avengers.
Those character is best on their own.

that wasn't Moon Knight; it was Khonshu.

[Shellhead]

Khonshu

Gesundheit!

[Mariah]

Steve Gerber created Howard the Duck, Hellcow, Doctor Bong, the Headmen, etc al. I would think Gerber might treat those "Avengers" as in-jokes & commentary as he did with Howard the Duck. The "Avengers" could fight a new "Masters of Evil" made up of Hellcow, Doctor Bong, & the Headmen.
Gerber wrote the avengers, beast in particular, way back in the late 70's, and the issue sucked

[Shellhead]

Gerber wrote the avengers, beast in particular, way back in the late 70's, and the issue sucked

I agree. And a guy named Kurt Busiek agreed, too, judging by his letter that was printed about that issue in the related letters page a few issues later.

[Mariah]

I agree. And a guy named Kurt Busiek agreed, too, judging by his letter that was printed about that issue in the related letters page a few issues later.
While I'm not the biggest fan of New Avengers(as they got rid of Wanda), I posted this about Gerber as everyone seemed to want to see him on the title. Kurt did write about that too, didn't he. I say give the guy a break. It's not like he'll be on the title forever. Give the new title a chance, maybe he'll step his game up, and maybe he'll only be on for an arc or two.

[DDM]

While I'm not the biggest fan of New Avengers(as they got rid of Wanda), I posted this about Gerber as everyone seemed to want to see him on the title. Kurt did write about that too, didn't he. I say give the guy a break. It's not like he'll be on the title forever. Give the new title a chance, maybe he'll step his game up, and maybe he'll only be on for an arc or two.

With Bendis decompression, "an arc or two" can still mean 1-2 years.

[The Shadow]

With Bendis decompression, "an arc or two" can still mean 1-2 years.
LOL

This always kills me when I read it.

The Sentry arc, Ronin, Spider-Woman... hell, even the initial arc were 6 issues or less.

The last 2 issues have been complete stand alone's.

None of his Daredevil arcs ran beyond 6 issues and neither does his Ultimate Spider-Man stuff and there were a lot of smaller stories throughout.

[Brandon McKinnis]

LOL

This always kills me when I read it.

The Sentry arc, Ronin, Spider-Woman... hell, even the initial arc were 6 issues or less.

The last 2 issues have been complete stand alone's.

None of his Daredevil arcs ran beyond 6 issues and neither does his Ultimate Spider-Man stuff and there were a lot of smaller stories throughout.


Sustained...I have never figured out why people who obviously don't read NA feel the need to endlessly bitch about it. If you don't like how a book is being written either don't read it, or bust your ass, get your writing noticed and pitch Marvel a better idea. Peace Sign.

[Will.S]

Sustained...I have never figured out why people who obviously don't read NA feel the need to endlessly bitch about it. If you don't like how a book is being written either don't read it, or bust your ass, get your writing noticed and pitch Marvel a better idea. Peace Sign.
It's a coping mechanism of sorts.

[Brandon McKinnis]

It's a coping mechanism of sorts.


So are drugs and alcoholism but who do they really help?

[Shellhead]

So are drugs and alcoholism but who do they really help?

Some Marvel writers actually read and post in these forums, so we were hoping that somebody would give us a more classic-style Avengers title, either in addition to or in place of New Avengers. The good news is, we are getting the Mighty Avengers. The bad news is, Bendis will be writing that one, too. Quesada is undoubtably laughing his ass off over that decision.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Some Marvel writers actually read and post in these forums, so we were hoping that somebody would give us a more classic-style Avengers title, either in addition to or in place of New Avengers. The good news is, we are getting the Mighty Avengers. The bad news is, Bendis will be writing that one, too. Quesada is undoubtably laughing his ass off over that decision.

See, this is a level headed response, not the "if you read NA you're an idiot" I've gotten so used to seeing, I appreciate that. Fact of the matter is, a lot of people do like NA, and while sales may not equal quality, they do make a publisher want to keep pumping out a product. Until sales of NA seriously dip Bendis is on board..which is obviously fine by me. All the bitching in the world won't change the numbers.

[The Shadow]

Quesada is undoubtably laughing his ass off over that decision.
All the way to the bank!!!