Avengers League: Twilght & venuscameback v. Nightcrawler

[Jessica Drew]

Welcome to the next match of the Avengers League! If you haven't been following the league, it is a large scale series of battles where posters draft teams and pit their teams against that of other posters, and you vote to decide who wins. When voting, please consider the strategies the players have written, rather than just the team's roster.

Each match is taking place on an empty battlefield, 100 yards away, and each character (with few exceptions) depicted is in his/her most frequent incarnation (therefore, no Iron Spidey or Extremis Iron Man), and the characters have to act in character (meaning that the heroes cannot kill if they aren't normally wont to do so).

If you have any questions about the strategies, please feel free to post these questions here, and the players will answer. The match will last twenty-four hours. After that time period, the player with the largest number of votes wins.

!!! - For your vote to count, you must have a post count of no lower than fifty.

Twilght/venuscameback's team: Quasar, Enchantress, Red Ronin, Namor, Baron Zemo I, Madam Masque

Nightcrawler's team: Graviton, Blackout, Purple Man, Whizzer, Living Lightning, American Eagle

[Jessica Drew]

Twilght/venuscameback's strategy:

Initial actions, simultaneous:

* Quasar encases Purple Man inside a large bubble which will keep him in place and prevent his pheremones affecting our team. Quasar simultaneously and instinctively creates a large personal shield all around him, Madame Masque & Baron Zemo, but enough room to comfortably accommodate all our team. The shield has a series of small holes for our gunfighters to shoot through.

* Enchantress teleports to where Graviton is and kisses him, taking control of him. She has him stop any gravity power thing he was doing on our team and vastly increase the gravitational pull on The Whizzer, slowing him downand maybe rooting him to the spot. On kissing and controlling Graviton, Enchantress teleports over to Quasar's side, inside his Quantum shields, spiriting herself away from any attackers who have been waiting on her.

* Namor takes the to the skies and adopts a defensive position. He's looking for Living Lightning in particular and will engage him as soon as he can. Namor is highly resistant to electrical attacks, so Namor easily gets up close cause he's pretty fast and knocks his lights out.

* Red Ronin blasts the centre of the battlefield and surrounding areas, creating vast craters that will slow Whizzer down considerably (if Enchantress/Graviton haven't) so that expert markswoman Madame Masque or war-trained gun expert Zemo can take him out. They also shoot at American Eagle, forcing him to take evasive action. The explosions disorientate the unstable Blackout. So he can't focus on any one attack.

Stage two:

* The Enchantress controlled Graviton commands Blackout to stand down & if necessary weights him to the floor, where he's an easy target for Red Ronin's blasts.

* Madame Masque and Zemo fire on American Eagle and keep him busy until Namor can swoop in and best him in hand to hand action.

Final stage:

* Quasar asks Purple Man to concede, which he does, but the moment Quasar releases him Madame Masque shoots him dead.

* Enchantress tells Graviton to sleep, and he does.

[Jessica Drew]

Nightcrawler's strategy:

Phase 1 (Instantly and Simultaneously)
• Blackout and American Eagle go on the defensive. If Enchantress tries to teleport into my team and take control of anyone (especially Graviton, that’s who my team is mainly watching out for), Blackout unloads into her. She won’t be expecting an attack, while my team expects her, and Blackout’s blasts are very powerful. American Eagle also pounds on her, if needed. If she doesn’t go down quickly, Blackout traps her in some Darkforce.
• Graviton puts a shield around my team. His shields are incredibly durable, and the opposing team doesn’t have enough firepower to break it. At the same time he holds the other team in stasis (he has done that to every hero on Earth at the same time while re-shaping the planet in his image), and crushes them. He focuses on Quasar. If necessary, Graviton will let everyone else go and focus completely on Quasar and crushes him. Quasar will be to busy trying to move to attack.
• Graviton opens a small gap in the back of the shield for an instant, just to let Living Lightning and Whizzer out.
• Whizzer speeds over and quickly takes down the possibly paralyzed Baron Zemo and Madame Masque. They won’t even know what hit them.
• Living Lightning enters the Red Ronin at sub-light speeds and short-circuits his armor. This shouldn’t take more than a few seconds. Lightning is pure energy, and it is simple for him to enter the armor’s electrical system and overload it.
• Purple Man takes control of anyone that tries to attack my team.
• Note- Quasar might try to revert Living Lightning to his human form. I think he will be too distracted, but even if he succeeds, Lightning can still use his powers in human form, he just can’t fly quite as fast.

Phase 2
• Baron Zemo, Madame Masque, and Red Ronin are down. Everyone on twi/venus’s team is paralyzed.
• If Enchantress hasn’t teleported to my team, Living Lightning now engages her. She can’t control him, because he is energy, and he is nearly invulnerable in his energy form.
• Whizzer super-fast punches the paralyzed Quasar.
• Graviton lowers his shield, takes flight and starts bombarding the other team, keeping them from organizing an attack.
• Blackout teleports himself, Purple Man, and American Eagle to the other team.
• Blackout then traps Namor in some Darkforce energy. Purple Man tries to take control of him, and tells him to kill his team mates. Namor might not be able to be controlled, but at least he’ll be too busy fighting off Purple Man’s powers to do anything else.
• American Eagle wails on Quasar.

Phase 3
• My team scatters away from the two or three remaining enemy combatants. Graviton uses his gravity-manipulation powers to pull them together.
• Graviton, Blackout, and Living Lightning all unleash the most powerful blasts they can at the pile of soon-to-be enemy corpses.
• If they start to lose intensity, Purple Man tells them to continue at full power. They will push themselves to death if need be, with Purple Man’s ‘encouragement.’

[Nightcrawler]

-I nailed their opening move with Enchantress.

-Namor tries to engage Living Lightning, but Lightning is, well, lightning. He's inside Red Ronin in an instant. Also, LL is almost invulnerable in his energy form.

-Because I anticipated Enchantress's attempted control of Graviton and was able to stop it, plus with the shield that graviton makes, a lot of their strategy doesn't work. For instance, Blackout is neither blasted down (cause of Graviton's shield) nor told to stand down by Graviton.

Good match, twilight and venus. Looking forward to some good debate.

[venuscameback]

Enchantress is there for all of five seconds (max) - teleports in, kisses Graviton, teleports back out again. Blackout doesn't have the reflexes needed to hit her in that time. Maybe American Eagle does but Enchantress is plenty agile to dodge him (and can get the kiss in before anyone realises she's there) and durable enough to take a hit before teleporting away

[Sean Whitmore]

-Because I anticipated Enchantress's attempted control of Graviton and was able to stop it, plus with the shield that graviton makes, a lot of their strategy doesn't work. For instance, Blackout is neither blasted down (cause of Graviton's shield) nor told to stand down by Graviton.



Hard to argue with this. Twi/Venus, better get your good debatin' hats on.


SEAN

[venuscameback]

Hard to argue with this. Twi/Venus, better get your good debatin' hats on.


SEAN

Enchantress is there for all of five seconds (max) - teleports in, kisses Graviton, teleports back out again. Blackout doesn't have the reflexes needed to hit her in that time. Maybe American Eagle does but Enchantress is plenty agile to dodge him (and can get the kiss in before anyone realises she's there) and durable enough to take a hit (or three! She's gone toe-to-toe against She-Hulk, and temporarily held her own) before teleporting away

Edited to add: this is a quick attack, Amora knows she needs to be in out and as quick as possible:

On kissing and controlling Graviton, Enchantress teleports over to Quasar's side, inside his Quantum shields, spiriting herself away from any attackers who have been waiting on her.

We predicted there'd be folk waiting for her, and wrote her in as jumping in and out asap. She's got the speed, skill and nous to do this

[venuscameback]

Okay, let's see, Nightcrawler (nice strat btw)

We lack the firepower to break Graviton's shields? Quasar can do that, he has amazing firepower. and he doens't need to move to attack, as your strategy states. He can attack from wherever he is, using his Quantum Bands. I guess he needs line of sight but that's it.

However we don't use him particularly aggressively. How are your team going to take down his shields?

Living Lightning vs. Red Ronin. How does he enter Red Ronin to try and short circuit it? RR is known for the lack of access from the outside. You might argue that metal is conductive but has LL been shown to be able to do that kind of attack, to travel through solids?

You never say LL adopts his lightning form - he can use his lightning powers in human form too - so voters shouldn't assume he transforms to that form. This makes him vulnerable to Namor, and makes it even harder for him to affect Red Ronin.

[Sean Whitmore]

Nice job, Venus. I think you're back in it. :D


SEAN

[venuscameback]

Nice job, Venus. I think you're back in it. :D


SEAN


LoL thanks Sean :)

[Nightcrawler]

We lack the firepower to break Graviton's shields? Quasar can do that, he has amazing firepower. and he doens't need to move to attack, as your strategy states. He can attack from wherever he is, using his Quantum Bands. I guess he needs line of sight but that's it.

However we don't use him particularly aggressively. How are your team going to take down his shields?


By crushing the life out of him.


You never say LL adopts his lightning form - he can use his lightning powers in human form too - so voters shouldn't assume he transforms to that form. This makes him vulnerable to Namor, and makes it even harder for him to affect Red Ronin.

That's garbage. He fights battles in his electricity form. That's like making Hulk start as Banner, or Thor as Blake.

As for Enchantress, it still takes her a second or two to cast the actual teleportation spell, and there is a magical sparkling of energy in the air where she is about to appear in for a moment, and they are looking for her, right where she appears. She will at least have to walk around to the front of Graviton to get a kiss on the face, plus she has to stay their to give him his orders. Also, she has to cast the teleportational spell to return to her team. That's more than enough time for Blackout to encase her in some Darkforce (like I say in my strat), at lease forcing her to retreat back to her team.

[venuscameback]

That's garbage. He fights battles in his electricity form. That's like making Hulk start as Banner, or Thor as Blake.

No, it's like saying Sandman starts with a sand body & then chooses for it to be hard like concrete or powdery like sand. Living Lightning has powers in both forms, Banner and Blake have none.

As for Enchantress, it still takes her a second or two to cast the actual teleportation spell, and there is a magical sparkling of energy in the air where she is about to appear in for a moment, and they are looking for her, right where she appears. She will at least have to walk around to the front of Graviton to get a kiss on the face, plus she has to stay their to give him his orders. Also, she has to cast the teleportational spell to return to her team. That's more than enough time for Blackout to encase her in some Darkforce (like I say in my strat), at lease forcing her to retreat back to her team.

Enchantress has repeatedly teleported as quick as a click of her fingers. It's one of the primary applications of her power.

Why does she have to kiss Graviton on the face? It can be his ear if she needs to, and who says she teleports behind him???

If Blackout has somehow gained superb reflexes - he's never been fast off the mark - and can first fire on her and then encase her - Amora's a cross-dimensional teleporter so a block of darkforce isn't going to slow her down for a minute.

[Nightcrawler]

No, it's like saying Sandman starts with a sand body & then chooses for it to be hard like concrete or powdery like sand. Living Lightning has powers in both forms, Banner and Blake have none.


But he fights in his energy form. He's in a battle, he's going to be in battle mode. Even if he were to start otherwise, it's only an instant to change.


Enchantress has repeatedly teleported as quick as a click of her fingers. It's one of the primary applications of her power.

Why does she have to kiss Graviton on the face? It can be his ear if she needs to, and who says she teleports behind him???

If Blackout has somehow gained superb reflexes - he's never been fast off the mark - and can first fire on her and then encase her - Amora's a cross-dimensional teleporter so a block of darkforce isn't going to slow her down for a minute.

My guys are expecting her. At the very least, they are able to knock her away from Graviton. They know where she's going to be, and the instant they see a mystical glow they fire (or punch, in American Eagle's case). Enchantress's skin is only 3x thicker than human, and she's only at the 25 ton
level, so she will be staggered.

I don't see what teleporting has to do with being invulnerable.

[venuscameback]

But he fights in his energy form. He's in a battle, he's going to be in battle mode. Even if he were to start otherwise, it's only an instant to change.

In most the WCA fights I can remember he's in his human form using his powers. He doesn't have to change to his lightning form to use his powers and doesn't normally do that. His normal combat form is to use his powers in his human form, not to transform. and you don't say he does transform into his energy form.

They know where she's going to be, and the instant they see a mystical glow they fire (or punch, in American Eagle's case).

Unfortunately that's not what your strategy says. You say nothing about them firing pre-emptively when the glow that signals her teleport appears a split-second before Enchantress does.

Enchantress's skin is only 3x thicker than human, and she's only at the 25 ton level, so she will be staggered.

I don't see what teleporting has to do with being invulnerable.

Enchantress is powerful enough to fight She-Hulk. Sure, she got beat and it didn't take all that many pages, and She-Hulk wasn't as strong then as now, but she stood her ground at first.

I never said Enchantress is invulnerable, nor connected it to her teleporting.

[Big G]

I think nightcrawler anticipated twilight & venuscameback's move with enchantress well. he saw it coming and deflected it.

twilight & venuscameback's strategy wasnt bad, but his final move put me to sleep! his lazy take down of purple man, plus he just puts graviton to sleep, what happens when he wakes up?

[venuscameback]

With regard to the Enchantress teleport, I think we got circular.

I believe she can teleport in, kiss, teleport out all in a matter of a few seconds, before Bloackout or American Eagle has time to intervene.

You believe they get their shots in after she teleports in, and prevent her enchanting Graviton.

Can we leave it there and let the voters decide?

[venuscameback]

twilight & venuscameback's strategy wasnt bad, but his final move put me to sleep! his lazy take down of purple man, plus he just puts graviton to sleep, what happens when he wakes up?

It was a hastily written strategy & it shows in the ending.

As for Graviton - who cares about when he wakes up? If everyone else is defeated and he's asleep, the match is over.

[Nightcrawler]

Unfortunately that's not what your strategy says. You say nothing about them firing pre-emptively when the glow that signals her teleport appears a split-second before Enchantress does.

Enchantress is powerful enough to fight She-Hulk. Sure, she got beat and it didn't take all that many pages, and She-Hulk wasn't as strong then as now, but she stood her ground at first.

I never said Enchantress is invulnerable, nor connected it to her teleporting.

No, I say 'if she teleports...' so they are watching for just what she does.

She will still be knocked back and away from Graviton.

You said that darkforce wouldn't stop her, because she is an inter-dimensional teleporter.

I anticipated your move exactly, why can't you give me that? Also, she has to give Graviton his orders, which takes several seconds, enough time for her to be put down.

[Nightcrawler]

With regard to the Enchantress teleport, I think we got circular.

I believe she can teleport in, kiss, teleport out all in a matter of a few seconds, before Bloackout or American Eagle has time to intervene.

You believe they get their shots in after she teleports in, and prevent her enchanting Graviton.

Can we leave it there and let the voters decide?

The kiss is no good without orders. That's where the time is.

Sorry to drag it out and all, just don't want to lose.

[venuscameback]

No, I say 'if she teleports...' so they are watching for just what she does.

She will still be knocked back and away from Graviton

No way is Blackout or American Eagle able to attack her in time to stop her leaning in and kissing Graviton. Once she's kissed him, she doesn't need to be next to him anymore.

You said that darkforce wouldn't stop her, because she is an inter-dimensional teleporter.

No, I didn't. I pointed out that encasing her in a block of Darkforce won't stop her, because she can teleport right out of it. Blasts of darkforce will injure her.

I anticipated your move exactly, why can't you give me that?

I agree you anticipated the move. I think that's clear from the above discussion. That doesn't mean you stop the move from working.

Also, she has to give Graviton his orders, which takes several seconds, enough time for her to be put down.

What does she need to say? "Stop Whizzer" will do. Two seconds? Long enough for you to land a hit, if their reflexes are quick enough, but one hit from Blackout and American Eagle won't take this hardy foe down, and after that hit she's teleported away.

[venuscameback]

Sorry to drag it out and all, just don't want to lose.

That's understandable.

I think we agree that Enchantress can teleport in and kiss Graviton, and while she's giving him his order there's a two second (roughly) window for Blackout and American Eagle to attack her.

The question is then, do they hit her and if they do do they hurt her sufficient to knock her out or do they just injure her, allowing her to teleport to safety?

You say she's knocked out, I say she's plenty hardy enough to take that & teleport away.

Is that a fair summary?

[Nightcrawler]

Well, this conversation has about run its course. I still disagree, of course, but just a few more points-

Graviton puts a shield up, so Enchantress will not be able to get to him if she ports to his front. She will have to stop, feel the invisible shield, and port around back. Now, Blackout and American Eagle have already seen her, so they are prepared for what her teleport looks like. After she ports behind Graviton, she will have to move to the fron or sides (can't kiss his neck, big collar), and I think that gives my team enough time. After she's hit, she still has to reorder her thoughts for the coming teleport, and my guys continue to hit her and keep her off balance.

Okay, I'm done.

[venuscameback]

Well, this conversation has about run its course. I still disagree, of course, but just a few more points-

Graviton puts a shield up, so Enchantress will not be able to get to him if she ports to his front. She will have to stop, feel the invisible shield, and port around back. Now, Blackout and American Eagle have already seen her, so they are prepared for what her teleport looks like. After she ports behind Graviton, she will have to move to the fron or sides (can't kiss his neck, big collar), and I think that gives my team enough time. After she's hit, she still has to reorder her thoughts for the coming teleport, and my guys continue to hit her and keep her off balance.

Okay, I'm done.

The shield's big enough to contain your entire team. Enchantress is teleporting up close to Graviton so she can zip in and out with minimal movement. Sounds to me like she can 'port right in without stopping.

Does Nightcrawler have to re-order his thoughts to teleport after being hit? Does any experienced teleporter? This isn't some novice we're discussing.

Somehow I knew we'd have a lengthy debate, Nightcrawler :D

I think we both like to have the last word!

[Nightcrawler]

The shield's big enough to contain your entire team. Enchantress is teleporting up close to Graviton so she can zip in and out with minimal movement. Sounds to me like she can 'port right in without stopping.


Well, it depends on where Graviton is in relation to his team (edge, middle, etc.), and I don't want to get into that. If he's on the edge, it would stop right in front of him. I assumed that the teams were grouped together in a rough circle, but there aren't any hard and fast rules.


Does Nightcrawler have to re-order his thoughts to teleport after being hit? Does any experienced teleporter? This isn't some novice we're discussing.

Somehow I knew we'd have a lengthy debate, Nightcrawler :D

I think we both like to have the last word!

Nightcrawler has been caught off guard before, and teleporting is his only thing. Enchantress might be in the middle of giving orders or using her persuasion magic when she is hit.

We're just grasping at straws now, I'm done. Unless you try to rebuttle.

[venuscameback]

I gotta be up in four hours so I'm afraid that's all from me tonight.

Thanks for the spirited debate, Nightcrawler, you give good - as always

[venuscameback]

We're just grasping at straws now, I'm done.

We are :D

I'm done. 'night mate

[Nightcrawler]

Good night. Good luck in your next match, whether it's next week or in two.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I was going to vote for Nightcrawler but venus made a great point for Enchantress so I voted for Twi/venus.

[venuscameback]

I was going to vote for Nightcrawler but venus made a great point for Enchantress so I voted for Twi/venus.

Thanks DS :)

I now <3 you and your Mom

[venuscameback]

Thanks for the match and debate, Nightcrawler - and good luck for the rest of the tournament

[Nightcrawler]

Thanks, you too.

[unkiedev]

Good job, boys. GOOD Luck, Twilight/Venus!

[venuscameback]

Thanks, you too.

You wrote a good strategy, Nightcrawler, as always, and had a plan in place for dealing with the Enchantress and the teleport that you predicted. It must be hard to lose a match like that, when you accurately predict your opponents main moves but voters don't think your counter-action works even though you do. I really wasn't sure what way the match would go. It was the closest of Twilight's & my matches in the division & I'm pleased for you that you still go through to fight another day.

One good thing about the Avengers League - when you look at the line-ups, there are no weak teams, no matches you look at and think "pssh, that's an easy game for that team". I haven't closely followed the other divisions due to time constraints but there wasn't an easy match in our division & that's certainly added to my pleasure