What is meant by "registration"?

[Aztec Ace]

I really haven't been following this Civil War stuff to closely. So I have a question.

What is entailed by being a Registered Superhero? Does the government write your name down on a card? Take DNA samples? Require you to report your current address? Have a parole officer check on you? Can the government spy on you? Etc….

[Bobster777]

The gov will have your name in a databank of super heroes that they will only know (how successful that will be, time will tell). Also, the gov will train up and coming heroes. The logic is that a professionally trained hero will prevent tragedies like Stamford.

[Dirk Anger]

Paid vacations are included as well.

[tonearcher]

Since Peter Parker took it to the next step, he will get a year vacation. With double pay!

[Deathstroke]

The gov will have your name in a databank of super heroes that they will only know (how successful that will be, time will tell). Also, the gov will train up and coming heroes. The logic is that a professionally trained hero will prevent tragedies like Stamford.

Yes because the government is SOOOOOO qualified to train super powered people and tragedies never happen on the government's watch.

[Bobster777]

Yes because the government is SOOOOOO qualified to train super powered people and tragedies never happen on the government's watch.

Well, considering there will be heroes there, they will be doing the training. Ms. Marvel will be training Arana in her book. So, while the gov isn't qualified, the heroes are.

[Deathstroke]

Well, considering there will be heroes there, they will be doing the training. Ms. Marvel will be training Arana in her book. So, while the gov isn't qualified, the heroes are.

Yeah, but they'll most likely be training them under guidelines established by the idiots in charge in the corrupt administration of the government and SHIELD.

[Bobster777]

Yeah, but they'll most likely be training them under guidelines established by the idiots in charge in the corrupt administration of the government and SHIELD.
Yeah, true. I'm just hoping that the heroes will assert themselves in situations when something isn't being done right. I guess that's another reason why I like the SHRA. There will suddenly be an influx of qualified, honest, and good people joining.

[Deathstroke]

Yeah, true. I'm just hoping that the heroes will assert themselves in situations when something isn't being done right. I guess that's another reason why I like the SHRA. There will suddenly be an influx of qualified, honest, and good people joining.


It's just a step towards the fascist control and enslavement of the superheroes. Anyone supporting this act is a traitor to the American ideals.

[Jack Zodiac]

I concur. I don't want to say it's unConstitutional, because vigilantism is illegal and super heroes are breaking the law by fighting crime on their own, but the government legally recognizes several groups as peacekeepers. The Avengers used to work for the UN. As did Storm's X-Men team. So, there must be some kind of act in place already that allows vigilantism on a certain scale. Replacing that with totally stripping super powered people of their privacy and rights definitely seems unConstitutional.

Over in City of Heroes, we passed this law called the Citizen Crime Fighting Act. Back in the early Forties, heroes began to pop up across the country, just like in all comic book universes. Congress passed a law that allowed controlled vigilantism to be legally sanctioned. Supergroups would follow the same guidelines as police officers, officially deputizing them as law enforcement agents. Then they passed a Might For Right Act in the late Fifties, on the swing of McCarthyism. Super heroes were drafted into government service, just like SHIELD is claiming Marvel's heroes as their own personal agents now. However, in City of Heroes, we found that to be unConstitutional, and so the Second Citizen Crime Fighting Act was passed. Supergroups register with the government, and with the Federal Bureau of Super-powered Affair, but are not obligated to work for the government unwillingly. I think, and hope, that will be how Civil War ends.

I have one idea as to why they're pushing the registration issue again, though. Marvel's supposed to be producing an MMORPG sometime next year where you start out as an agent for SHIELD. That seems to be what they're setting up here. If you have super powers and wish to be a hero, you register with SHIELD, become an agent, and then develope your own hero persona.
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[Bobster777]

It's just a step towards the fascist control and enslavement of the superheroes. Anyone supporting this act is a traitor to the American ideals.
The thing is though, it isn't the gov just pushing this. It is the American people who want the law. So what, do we just not listen to the general public? Also, we keep talking about American ideals, specifically civil liberties. How about the civil liberties of the public? Don't they have the right to know who is "protecting" them?

[Deathstroke]

The thing is though, it isn't the gov just pushing this. It is the American people who want the law. So what, do we just not listen to the general public? Also, we keep talking about American ideals, specifically civil liberties. How about the civil liberties of the public? Don't they have the right to know who is "protecting" them?

The right to know who is protecting them versus the right of the individuals doing the protecting to keep their identity public and their families safe from reprisals?

Sorry going to have to go with the secret identity crowd on this one. To me, that'd be like outing the CIA spies, and we saw how well that went over.

If it were me, I'd quit being a hero and simply watch while a multitude of crimes were committed, then look around and say "Wow imagine if I was a hero, I could've stopped this, but you ungrateful sacks of crap will now only accept help if I let my family become targets. Enjoy burying grandma."

[Bobster777]

The right to know who is protecting them versus the right of the individuals doing the protecting to keep their identity public and their families safe from reprisals?

Sorry going to have to go with the secret identity crowd on this one. To me, that'd be like outing the CIA spies, and we saw how well that went over.

If it were me, I'd quit being a hero and simply watch while a multitude of crimes were committed, then look around and say "Wow imagine if I was a hero, I could've stopped this, but you ungrateful sacks of crap will now only accept help if I let my family become targets. Enjoy burying grandma."
Exactly, you have that choice. That is what makes the law fair.
Plus, these guys don't need secret identities anymore than a prosecutor. Prosecutors deal with mafia drug lords everyday. The drug lords can kill you and your family aseasily as a super villain. So, why don't they get to have secret identities?

[Nate Palm]

Exactly, you have that choice. That is what makes the law fair.

Actually you don't have that choice. That is what makes the law unfair. Joe Q has stated that all super humans including mutants are required to sign. He says it is exactly like the Mutant Reg Act but now includes ALL powered individuals. The only type of hero I see that could maybe get a pass is a Hawkeye type nonpower who quits or maybe a hero who gets all his powers from a suit who quits.

[SpartanX]

It's just a step towards the fascist control and enslavement of the superheroes. Anyone supporting this act is a traitor to the American ideals.
Not only American. Human ideals.

[Jack Zodiac]

Not only American. Human ideals.

Truth, Justice, and all that stuff. ;)
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[Bordnlazy]

I somehow find this all fascinating! Though i would've expected more people to come out to be more on the Captain America side of the fight,but of course there is still time for that. The whole thing comes out more like the Lesser of two evils,and what marvels plan is I dont know, though i hope its good!

Though just throwing in my two cents, It seems the Wiser choice to throw in the Towel and just conform until you find out What is really going on(which is prolly the wrong choice) then to blindly pick a side and cause chaos between the heroes to grow til the point where it will be a civil war.

[IamtheRock3]

They say this doesnt apply to all metahumans..just heros and villans. they say all Heroes have to register and work for the goverment

But who would fall under the hero line in the goverment eyes

because some super heros team dont consider themselves super heroes. Lot of the Xmen and people just guys making it through the day who happen to have runs in with powerfull guys

Or what about Say Thor, or Hercules, Doc Samson (just a phycologist who run into villans)

Or odd heroes like


Dr strange
Ghost Rider- Sprit of venger working for shiled...like to see the try to make them

[IamtheRock3]

heck even the kids at the Xaiver school ran into villans and trained to fight them.

[Bobster777]

heck even the kids at the Xaiver school ran into villans and trained to fight them.
Yeah, the law is very general. I guess though, the reasonable part of passing a law like this is. If you have powers and you want to use them to fight crime, it shouldn't be done in on a trial and error basis. More people stand to get hurt that way. Learning how to utilize those powers in a controlled environment (such as practice rooms like those used by the Avengers) will minimize people getting hurt due to negligent actions.

[xtreme680]

I've never thought of this as being incredibly fascist. The fact is, superhero fights have got to kill people all the time. Collateral damage if you will. But now we get one with large scale destruction and the public finally demands some accountability and it's fascist? No. What's fascist is thinking you are somehow above the law and can assault anyone you wish to deem as good or evil with incredibly powered weapons or physical abilities. There has to be a process, and there has to be an accountability. You don't have to join SHIELD. I'm fairly certain Cyclops could be like, OK, I registered, I'm done, I'm gonna open up a women's shoe store and it would be fine, except when we found huge energy beam holes in the mall we could be like "Well I do believe that Cyclops might have something to do with this."

Most of the people like Thor or Namor or Dr. Strange live such odd lives that they may not even be considering it. Namor isn't even an American citizen.

[MDactor1980]

So, what happens once they register and continue on as a superhero.

Let's say Spider-Man, is sent by SHIELD on some mission to rescue people from a fire in Alaska. MJ gets kidnapped by some new supervillain, who found out all about Spidey's business from his registration file. Does Spidey get to go rescue MJ, or does SHIELD force him to stay on the Alaska mission, and they send over their team of, say, Black Cat and Tigra to save MJ. They eff up, all 3 chicks die, but had Spidey gone, MJ would have been totally fine.

I hope that made sense.

[Aztec Ace]

So, what happens once they register and continue on as a superhero.

Let's say Spider-Man, is sent by SHIELD on some mission to rescue people from a fire in Alaska. MJ gets kidnapped by some new supervillain, who found out all about Spidey's business from his registration file. Does Spidey get to go rescue MJ, or does SHIELD force him to stay on the Alaska mission, and they send over their team of, say, Black Cat and Tigra to save MJ. They eff up, all 3 chicks die, but had Spidey gone, MJ would have been totally fine.

I hope that made sense.

But that scenerio moves the act from a Registration process to a Draft process. Though I see that as a likely progression.

[Nate Palm]

Namor isn't even an American citizen.

A form of the SHRA that regulates foreign super humans on American soil might actually be legal. While the actual SHRA clearly violates the 14th Amendment.

[IamtheRock3]

Yea but how many the Xmen would be considered a regular super heroes

Lot of the time trouble just follow them and they trained for it

[Calybos]

Mr. Incredible and Frozone hung around listening to the police band and saving people after work hours.

When heroes are outlawed, outlaws will be the only true heroes.

[Bobster777]

Mr. Incredible and Frozone hung around listening to the police band and saving people after work hours.

When heroes are outlawed, outlaws will be the only true heroes.
Heroes aren't being outlawed. They are just being asked to be more accountable for their actions.

[Deathstroke]

Heroes aren't being outlawed. They are just being asked to be more accountable for their actions.

No, they are being TOLD to be a separate class of people with less civil rights than those idiotic people making them register.

[Bobster777]

No, they are being TOLD to be a separate class of people with less civil rights than those idiotic people making them register.
No they are not. They are being told that if you want to do something that can potentially get a lot of people killed, you have to be accountable for it. If you don't like it, quit like Firestar did.

[AllisterH]

No, they are being TOLD to be a separate class of people with less civil rights than those idiotic people making them register.

Which one is it? On the one hand, people are complaining that the laws are unjust with regard to superheroes yet the other hand, people are ALSO complaining that the laws regarding vigilantism should not apply to superheroes because the people involved go beyond the laws of human physics & nature.

So which is it? Are superheroes JUST like you and me and thus subject to the same laws and regulations that apply to any other "choice" or are they beyond the laws of man & nature and thus not subject to the same laws (take note, if it is the 2nd one, then cries about infringing on their civil rights won't hold as they aren't subject to the same laws governing normal people).

[Deathstroke]

No they are not. They are being told that if you want to do something that can potentially get a lot of people killed, you have to be accountable for it. If you don't like it, quit like Firestar did.

No they are being told that because they can do something that can potentially save as well as kill, that they are to be treated as a government slave race. And if you think that won't happen, watch what happens when the government wins.

I'm really amazed at so many posters being in favor of creating a second class set of citizens.

[Conn Seanery]

I'm really amazed that some people forget we're talking about a superhero comic book.

[Bobster777]

No they are being told that because they can do something that can potentially save as well as kill, that they are to be treated as a government slave race. And if you think that won't happen, watch what happens when the government wins.

I'm really amazed at so many posters being in favor of creating a second class set of citizens.
That's your interpretation, but the public has a right to defend their interests. These heroes are doing something that completely affects them. It isn't unreasonable to want a little more structure to super hero work. I don't buy this slave race crap. That isn't what our country is about anymore. Also, everyone speaks as if only people with powers have to register. Punisher, Shang Chi, and Hawkeye (the girl and the guy) doesn't have powers. So, there isn't any prejudice here. People want more accountability, and that isn't too much to ask for.

[Deathstroke]

I'm really amazed that some people forget we're talking about a superhero comic book.

I know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry but it doesn't make my point less valid that it's pen and ink drawings we are talking about.

[Deathstroke]

That's your interpretation, but the public has a right to defend their interests. These heroes are doing something that completely affects them. It isn't unreasonable to want a little more structure to super hero work. I don't buy this slave race crap. That isn't what our country is about anymore. Also, everyone speaks as if only people with powers have to register. Punisher, Shang Chi, and Hawkeye (the girl and the guy) doesn't have powers. So, there isn't any prejudice here. People want more accountability, and that isn't too much to ask for.

Accountability?

It goes beyond accountability when they are being told they have to not only register, reveal their identities to the government (who's proven time and time again they can't keep secrets and are more corrupt than the villains the heroes fight), and work to hunt down other heroes who stand up for what's right and refuse to register.

[Calybos]

THERE's a key point right there... since when have Americans trusted their government with more power and secrets?

That's not the American ideal, and that's why Cap is fighting against this initiative.

I think this is the type of story that could only be told post-9/11, when people are terrorized enough to seriously discuss giving government more and more power (which automatically means surrendering more of our freedoms) in the name of "keeping us safe."

Here's hoping the citizens of the Marvel U.S.A. don't fall for it as badly as real-world Americans have.

[Conn Seanery]

I know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry but it doesn't make my point less valid that it's pen and ink drawings we are talking about.
Oh, i'm afraid it does. I can't speak for everyone, but i'm reading this thing for entertainment purposes. You seem to be implying that anyone who understands and/or agrees with the pro-registration side would support the return of slavery. When you start making assumptions about my life (or others) based on what's said about a comic book, i'd say that's a good indication that you're losing touch.

If you want to put the blinders on and make it such a plain black & white issue it's your lazy choice to do so, but the truth is that it's a lot more complicated than that. You'd know that if you'd bothered to read any of the numerous threads on this forum.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

THERE's a key point right there... since when have Americans trusted their government with more power and secrets?

That's not the American ideal, and that's why Cap is fighting against this initiative.

I think this is the type of story that could only be told post-9/11, when people are terrorized enough to seriously discuss giving government more and more power (which automatically means surrendering more of our freedoms) in the name of "keeping us safe."

Here's hoping the citizens of the Marvel U.S.A. don't fall for it as badly as real-world Americans have.

You just explained why I can never side with this law whatsoever, real life or not.

[Deus ex Chris]

Accountability?

It goes beyond accountability when they are being told they have to not only register, reveal their identities to the government (who's proven time and time again they can't keep secrets and are more corrupt than the villains the heroes fight), and work to hunt down other heroes who stand up for what's right and refuse to register.

My understanding is that they have to register and work for the government if they want to continue as heroes, or they can retire and not have to worry about working for the government.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

THERE's a key point right there... since when have Americans trusted their government with more power and secrets?
But that - while undoubtedly true - is a matter of implementation, not morality. I don't see a lot of heroes protesting against the Act on the basis that the government will bollocks up the secrecy part of it. So far they've all been anti-reg because of tradition, because they don't want to work for SHIELD, because they think registration is wrong on the basis of civil liberties. The only superhero to question the consequences of having their identity made public was Spider-Man - and he was talking about announcing himself on national TV, not having his identity leaked through a government foul-up.

I'd actually like to see what the response would be if someone brought that up. The pro-reg side has Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym as its leading lights - surely they could work out and implement a security system, of procedures and hardware, that won't roll over the first time a supervillain sneezes at it.

My understanding is that they have to register and work for the government if they want to continue as heroes, or they can retire and not have to worry about working for the government.
They're still required to register, even if they have no intention of using their powers. Though of course, if someone looks normal and acts normal, and the government doesn't already know that they have powers, they could just choose to ignore the whole thing. Technically illegal, but if one takes no superhero-type action and uses no powers, I can't see a jury being particularly harsh for 'failure to register' alone even if the person is found out as possessing powers. Probably you'd just be required to register and let off with a fine - if a super doesn't feel anti-reg strongly enough to wear their costume or use their powers, SHIELD has nothing to gain by persecuting and potentially radicalising them.

I'm really amazed at so many posters being in favor of creating a second class set of citizens.
That's an interesting point - if you think about it though, superpowered people are a second class of citizens. Not in terms of one class being legally inferior to the other, but simply that they're two different kinds. This is something that we've never really had to face at any stage in our history, a group of people whose ability to affect their fellow citizens is fundamentally different to what's considered the human norm. It's practically the basis of the concept of a single class of citizen, as a democratic ideal, that everyone, without artificial enhancement, is on a level playing field. "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal..." Superheroes aren't. Whether by birth or mystic event or laboratory accident or goddess-knows-what, a superhero is absolutely not equal to an ordinary citizen. Doesn't that have to be reflected, in some way, in their legal standing?

I mean, take two people from pretty much anywhere in the world - the real world - and put them side by side. Not much difference. One may be stronger or younger or smarter or more agile or what have you, but averaged over the population of a country - heck, over the population of a small town - every citizen is pretty much equal, as born, in their ability to affect each other. When that ability to affect people is augmented in some way - acquiring a weapon, driving a big heavy vehicle, holding public office - there are checks and balances in place to protect citizens who don't have those augmentations. The law exists (in theory) to provide a level playing field, in terms of our fundamental liberty to live our lives without being detrimentally affected by others. Society affords us the right to our personal freedom, so far as that right is demonstrably balanced with the responsibility to not use that freedom to impinge on others' freedom. And seeing as all 'normal' humans, with no artificial advantages, are pretty much equal in those terms, the same laws and standards of citizenship apply to all.

But what happens when someone is born, or haphazardly gifted, with a superpower? They have the ability to affect others on a scale vastly disproportionate to others' abilities to affect them. Their personal freedom includes options not open to ordinary people. Shouldn't the standard of responsibility demanded of them, in exchange for the status of citizen, equally extend further than that of ordinary people?

It's a hellaciously tricky subject, seeing as people are naturally inclined to fear what they regard as 'other', anything unlike themselves. And it's important, for that reason, to closely guard personal freedom, and not give it up too lightly, because the abdication of freedom is a steep slope with a very nasty bottom, and it's easy to slip, even just on a small step. But it's as scientific as sociology gets that rights must be balanced with responsibilities, otherwise the system is inherently unstable. If a superbeing citizen has greater rights than a normal citizen, the rights to possess their superhuman powers, but has no greater level of responsibility... then what? And seeing as removing their powers isn't an option, surely responsibility equal to their rights must be demanded.

I'm not saying I'd trust our government to do it, of course - they're subject to the same equation, and if they're to have the right to govern us, they must bear the responsibility to do so properly. Which, let's face it, happens less often than not. But that doesn't change the fact that superbeings as citizens cannot be treated as if they're just normal human being.

[MakeshiftHero]

Quick side question, if a hero signs up with the gov. he doesn't have to publicly reveal himself does he? Cause i've been confused since reading CW#2 when peter did it when there was no real reason for him to do so.

[Alan2099]

Peter simply did it as a media thing. He didn't have to publicly reveal himself.

[Bobster777]

Quick side question, if a hero signs up with the gov. he doesn't have to publicly reveal himself does he? Cause i've been confused since reading CW#2 when peter did it when there was no real reason for him to do so.
No, they do not have to reveal their identity to the public. Peter's unmasking was symbolic. If he could do it, then the other heroes have no reason to register. The fact is, if you are a hero and you do not register, you are breaking a law that was passed legally. Thus, you are a villain. So, if you are a registered hero, isn't your duty to hunt villains? That is an expectation if you register. If you don't want to have to do that, then stop being a hero. It's as simple as that. The Marvel public doesn't want heroes running around anymore without having someone to answer to. You want to look at it beyond that, then that's your problem. Because the public has allowed this laissez faire attitude permit in terms of crime fighting/heroing, Stamford occurred. Okay, so some people call it a knee-jerk reaction. Should we wait for another Stamford to happen so that it won't be a knee-jerk reaction? If it happens two times, then should we pass the law?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

No, they do not have to reveal their identity to the public. Peter's unmasking was symbolic. If he could do it, then the other heroes have no reason to register. The fact is, if you are a hero and you do not register, you are breaking a law that was passed legally. Thus, you are a villain. So, if you are a registered hero, isn't your duty to hunt villains? That is an expectation if you register. If you don't want to have to do that, then stop being a hero. It's as simple as that. The Marvel public doesn't want heroes running around anymore without having someone to answer to. You want to look at it beyond that, then that's your problem. Because the public has allowed this laissez faire attitude permit in terms of crime fighting/heroing, Stamford occurred. Okay, so some people call it a knee-jerk reaction. Should we wait for another Stamford to happen so that it won't be a knee-jerk reaction? If it happens two times, then should we pass the law?

Too bad Peter is gonna get such an a** whoopin' from his rogues gallery, and probably Pro-Registration if he really does switch sides. Not to mention all the other negative ramifications that will happen because of his dumba**
decision.

Seriously, Peter is the worst example you can use in this argument.

[Bobster777]

Too bad Peter is gonna get such an a** whoopin' from his rogues gallery, and probably Pro-Registration if he really does switch sides. Not to mention all the other negative ramifications that will happen because of his dumba**
decision.

Seriously, Peter is the worst example you can use in this argument.
I always looked at it this way. Peter is in a lose/lose situation. If he unmasks, all his rogues will go after him. However, atleast he knows that and he can prepare for it. If he keeps the mask on though, he'll have to constantly make sure his identity is protected. Plus, he won't always know if a rogue has found out about his identity. So, he can be taken by surprise. If I was him, I'd rather just let people know who I am so I don't have to hide anymore. Like I said though, either way, it is a bad situation.

[Sandy Hausler]

I concur. I don't want to say it's unConstitutional, because vigilantism is illegal and super heroes are breaking the law by fighting crime on their own, but the government legally recognizes several groups as peacekeepers.

I have to say this from time to time, but vigilanteism is only illegal if the state has a statute which says it is. New York State does not have such a statute.

Sandy Hausler

[AllisterH]

I have to say this from time to time, but vigilanteism is only illegal if the state has a statute which says it is. New York State does not have such a statute.

Sandy Hausler

Yeah, but that's kind of splitting hairs don't you think Sandy.

For example, as you listed, New York doesn't have a statue against vigilantism per se, but it does have laws against breaking and entering, assault, stalking etc. All things which vigilantism breaks so even if they're not breaking a non-existent law, they are breaking some law.