Should the racial minority mutants have lost their powers?

[Callisto]

I really don't think so, there is barely any racially diverse mutants as it is but to depower a well known asian character as jubilliee or moonstar or tag or windancer it made me quite outraged! Most of the mutants out in the marvel universe are white and to have to make the very few minorities no longer mutants was a very bad move in my opinion. What does everyone else think?

[Beast]

All mutants are a racial minority, and for the most part they see themselves as mutants above all. And while there were some ethnic characters that were depowered, there were just as many WASP characters that were. And there's quite a large number of the ethnically diverse characters who retained their powers.

[Brian M.]

Um....when talking about equality wouldn't be wrong to single out the racially different mutants? If the majority of mutants seem to white then woudn't it make sense that they are the ones that got left w/ powers? I think it'd be stupid to single out the racially different mutants, I mean what kind of message does that send? Hey b/c they are black/asian/indian/native american they are special and can't be touched. Sorry, don't buy it. Let them suffer just like all the other mutants. Besides you still have Bishop, Storm, Sunfire, Psylocke and tons others. It's fine the way it is.

[Matthew K.]

All mutants are a racial minority, and for the most part they see themselves as mutants above all. And while there were some ethnic characters that were depowered, there were just as many WASP characters that were. And there's quite a large number of the ethnically diverse characters who retained their powers.

The Wasp got depowered!?! ;)

[Brian M.]

The Wasp got depowered!?! ;)

No she got bitched slap for not doing what Pym told her.

[Metallurgique]

1. We know there are more than 198 mutants left.

2. We don't know the makeup of those who are left.

3. There are still plenty of "non-caucasian" mutants left - Surge, Storm, Living Monolith, Karma, Warpath, Debrii, Neal Shaara, to name a few.

4. Who's to say that Homo-sapien constructs of "race" really even apply to, say, Nightcrawler - who's been blue for most of his life, or Indra, who's purple, or Prism, who's not really any "color" and doesn't really look "human" at all?

5. Mutation in the Marvel Universe happens regardless of race, so why should a change that effects only mutant genes not effect those of certain ethnicities/races? In other words, if Mutation is colorblind, so should be "unmutation."

[Brian M.]

1. We know there are more than 198 mutants left.

2. We don't know the makeup of those who are left.

3. There are still plenty of "non-caucasian" mutants left - Surge, Storm, Living Monolith, Karma, Warpath, Debrii, Neal Shaara, to name a few.

4. Who's to say that Homo-sapien constructs of "race" really even apply to, say, Nightcrawler - who's been blue for most of his life, or Indra, who's purple, or Prism, who's not really any "color" and doesn't really look "human" at all?

5. Mutation in the Marvel Universe happens regardless of race, so why should a change that effects only mutant genes not effect those of certain ethnicities/races? In other words, if Mutation is colorblind, so should be "unmutation."

Great points. Welcome to the board.

[Faded]

Hmmm...I dunno. I see both sides of the fence.

There shouldn't be a quota nor an exclusion for 'minorities' (in the real world sense), but there is a proportion issue. Anyway, I think we lose more ethnic mutants to random deaths than to House of M (Maggot, Sunpyre, Risque, Synch, Skin, Tag, and Shard come to mind).

[Mariah]

Hmmm...I dunno. I see both sides of the fence.

There shouldn't be a quota nor an exclusion for 'minorities' (in the real world sense), but there is a proportion issue. Anyway, I think we lose more ethnic mutants to random deaths than to House of M (Maggot, Sunpyre, Risque, Synch, Skin, Tag, and Shard come to mind).
Hell, I think they should. I want some affirmitive action with these mutants, quit letting the man get you down...and end sarcasm... the only thing I was upset about was my favorite characters we're getting depowered, like Moonstar.

[Nyssane]

Cargill's still powered. :)

[Porcelain]

I really don't think so, there is barely any racially diverse mutants as it is but to depower a well known asian character as jubilliee or moonstar or tag or windancer it made me quite outraged! Most of the mutants out in the marvel universe are white and to have to make the very few minorities no longer mutants was a very bad move in my opinion. What does everyone else think?
Mutants of different races shouldn't be exempt. However saying that, of the significant X-men characters that were depowered having both Jubilee & Moonstar go, whilst characters such as Polaris and Iceman get "re-powered" is more than a little iffy plus looks like Chamber is going that way too - kinda like some of the deaths Faded mentioned. Saying that, I think it's more to do with lack of perceived popularity by Marvel or creators not wanting to use them so they're free for fodder use - which possibly points to a larger problem.

[Foley]

I want to complain about WASP characters getting changed into racial minorities. Lee Corsi, the nurse, and Betsy Braddock have all been changed from WASP characters to minorities, but the only change of a minority to a WASP has been Michael Jackson. Maybe this indicates a larger problem :rolleyes:

[Agentum]

In this modern time i think equal amounts of mutants shoud still be active if there s no special reason to why they lost their power.

The world must have been full of mutants but mostly it looked like 90% was based in US and still do.

It's pretty stupid to have a list of mutants and an exakt number of them, as if all mutants that was not US based would lose their power automaticly.
I prefer to believe that there is still a lot of uknown mutants on earth.
But it feels very american to handle it the way they have.

[Bobster777]

I'm a racial minority and I have no problem with it. In terms of the X-books, there is an incredible representation of minorites. Plus, I think it is ludicrous to exempt racial minorities from being depowered just because there are less of them. If it adds to the story, that's fine with me. Quite frankly, Jubilee being depowered was more significant to me than anything she ever did as a mutant.

[Zombienorthstar]

Positive discrimination is no better than regular discrimination. There are currently about 100/150 still powered mutants who identies are unknown to us...its likely because these are not in America the 'super hero hub'.

There are plenty of people who belong to ethnic minorities who are still powered. Any depowering should have been based on story...basing it on anything else is not only deeply offensive its incredibly patronising.

[Porcelain]

I utterly agree (though Devil's Advocate inside is whipsering there should always be a check/balance), but that doesn't mean there may not be contributory social factors involved over time - espeically when dealing with a creative medium.

[Zombienorthstar]

I utterly agree (though Devil's Advocate inside is whipsering there should always be a check/balance), but that doesn't mean there may not be contributory social factors involved over time - espeically when dealing with a creative medium.


I think there should be minorites featured in comic books...but onyl because it creates good stories...i mean take Anole in New X-Men...his being gay AND a mutant...means that we can examine prejudice closely and this is undoubtedly the central theme of the X-Men...hence feautuing minorities is interesting in creating new and different characters...but if theres nothing to them apart from their minority status they become no better than the laughing stock that is Luke Cage.

[Sentinel K]

I think there should be minorites featured in comic books...but onyl because it creates good stories...i mean take Anole in New X-Men...his being gay AND a mutant...means that we can examine prejudice closely and this is undoubtedly the central theme of the X-Men...hence feautuing minorities is interesting in creating new and different characters...but if theres nothing to them apart from their minority status they become no better than the laughing stock that is Luke Cage.

Why is Luke Cage a laughing stock?

I like Luke Cage.

[Zombienorthstar]

Why is Luke Cage a laughing stock?

I like Luke Cage.


I mean old Luke Cage...before he became a character and was just a black stereotype.

[Porcelain]

I think there should be minorites featured in comic books...but onyl because it creates good stories...i mean take Anole in New X-Men...his being gay AND a mutant...means that we can examine prejudice closely and this is undoubtedly the central theme of the X-Men...hence feautuing minorities is interesting in creating new and different characters...but if theres nothing to them apart from their minority status they become no better than the laughing stock that is Luke Cage.
So if there isn't a story in their ethnic background, a new character should just be automatically "white"?

Luke Cage is a fab example actually. He's now one of my favourite characters (because of the current writer) - who just happens to be black.

[Cowlander]

So if there isn't a story in their ethnic background, a new character should just be automatically "white"?

Luke Cage is a fab example actually. He's now one of my favourite characters (because of the current writer) - who just happens to be black.
Exactly..

Zombie your problem(to strong a word I know) is that youre assuming representaton is fair and creation of characters is fair. Its not, theres no devious underhanded plot to it tho, but noone is saying there is. Most creators are white, they created what they knew, they created what was around them mostly and they grew up with. So we got alot of wasp characters and then when we did get minority characters they were little more than stereotypes. Where their race is PART of their POWERSET.

Nowadays creators are more likely to have interacted and be from alot of different backgrounds so the way characters are introduced has changed. We get meaningful characters of all creeds. The problem is fans dont really accept new characters across the board regardless of race. So its hard for any new character to gain a foothold.

So people are going to see a problem when a bunch of minority characters are written out, or simply killed off. Theres so little in proportion its a big impact. I see it in the same light as the Gen X conspiracy, where you have these characters who arent allowed to grow past a certain point. So you start to use them as cannon fodder for you "real" stars.

[Beast]

In this modern time i think equal amounts of mutants shoud still be active if there s no special reason to why they lost their power.

The world must have been full of mutants but mostly it looked like 90% was based in US and still do.

It's pretty stupid to have a list of mutants and an exakt number of them, as if all mutants that was not US based would lose their power automaticly.
I prefer to believe that there is still a lot of uknown mutants on earth.
But it feels very american to handle it the way they have.
Well, many countries had programs in place to weed out X-Gene positive children from their numbers. China, Russia, Japan, and others had programs in place where pregnancies that indicated that the child would eventually be a mutant were terminated. That's why the majority of the mutants in the world originally where WASPs. Some of course slipped by, and quite a large number moved to Genosha when the country formed, as it was a place where mutants recieved fair treatment. Unfortunatly, most of them are dead.

[Beast]

So if there isn't a story in their ethnic background, a new character should just be automatically "white"?

Luke Cage is a fab example actually. He's now one of my favourite characters (because of the current writer) - who just happens to be black.
Bendis is black? He hides it well. :D

[dazzler_slave]

I think it is easy to talk theory and say that there should be an equal number of minority characters offed as white because why would DeciMation play favourites etc. But it comes down to a real reality that while there are hundreds and hundreds of white characters in the Marvel Universe, there are probably almost 90% fewer non-white characters. Native American, Latino and Arabic are especially under represented. I don't have a problem if a non-white character starts off as a stereotype because they can grow past that as Dani Moonstar and Luke Cage have proven. As a person of colour, I enjoy seeing someone who looks like me that I can look up to (unfortunatley, being Native Canadian, I have like 5 or 6 choices and all wear feathers :D ). I understand that in the long run, more white mutants ended up getting de-powered than non-white, but because there are so few non-white characters they stand out more.

Also, people say we have a tonne of minorities in the X-Men and so they are well represented. I kinda disagree. I counted.

White: 37 members (Currently 4 are dead, 4 confirmed depowered)
Asian: 7 members (Currently 3 are dead, 2 confirmed depowered)
Black: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead)
Native American: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead, 1 confirmed depowered)
Latino: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead, 2 confirmed depowered)
Indian: 1 member
Alien: 2 members (Currently 1 is dead)
Arabic: o members

The numbers speak for themselves and they are pretty darn grim. And I just stuck exclusively to the X-Men. I didn't even get into all the other X-Teams.

I find it funny that whenever a minority character is created, we hear complaints by comic readers of the creators shoe-horning a minority into comics just to have a minority, but whenever a new white character is created, no one complains that the writers are trying to shoe horn a white character into comic books. I'm just saying...

Finally, I just want to point out that it is easy to stand there and say that things like DeciMation should be equal across the board when you are represented by 90% of all the super heroes ever created.

[Brian M.]

I think it is easy to talk theory and say that there should be an equal number of minority characters offed as white because why would DeciMation play favourites etc. But it comes down to a real reality that while there are hundreds and hundreds of white characters in the Marvel Universe, there are probably almost 90% fewer non-white characters. Native American, Latino and Arabic are especially under represented. I don't have a problem if a non-white character starts off as a stereotype because they can grow past that as Dani Moonstar and Luke Cage have proven. As a person of colour, I enjoy seeing someone who looks like me that I can look up to (unfortunatley, being Native Canadian, I have like 5 or 6 choices and all wear feathers :D ). I understand that in the long run, more white mutants ended up getting de-powered than non-white, but because there are so few non-white characters they stand out more.

Also, people say we have a tonne of minorities in the X-Men and so they are well represented. I kinda disagree. I counted.

White: 37 members (Currently 4 are dead, 4 confirmed depowered)
Asian: 7 members (Currently 3 are dead, 2 confirmed depowered)
Black: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead)
Native American: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead, 1 confirmed depowered)
Latino: 4 members (Currently 1 is dead, 2 confirmed depowered)
Indian: 1 member
Alien: 2 members (Currently 1 is dead)
Arabic: o members

The numbers speak for themselves and they are pretty darn grim. And I just stuck exclusively to the X-Men. I didn't even get into all the other X-Teams.

I find it funny that whenever a minority character is created, we hear complaints by comic readers of the creators shoe-horning a minority into comics just to have a minority, but whenever a new white character is created, no one complains that the writers are trying to shoe horn a white character into comic books. I'm just saying...

Finally, I just want to point out that it is easy to stand there and say that things like DeciMation should be equal across the board when you are represented by 90% of all the super heroes ever created.


Your list makes sense as far as the depowered and dead numbers go. The White Mutants lost most then any b/c they were the majority.

[dazzler_slave]

Your list makes sense as far as the depowered and dead numbers go. The White Mutants lost most then any b/c they were the majority.
True, but look at who's left. There are still 29 powered and living X-Men out there while there is only 1 powered and living Latino X-Man (Darwin). Maybe the question should be asked, why were there only 4 latino X-Men to begin with?

[Porcelain]

Bendis is black? He hides it well. :D
~grins~

Exactly..

Zombie your problem(to strong a word I know) is that youre assuming representaton is fair and creation of characters is fair. Its not, theres no devious underhanded plot to it tho, but noone is saying there is. Most creators are white, they created what they knew, they created what was around them mostly and they grew up with. So we got alot of wasp characters and then when we did get minority characters they were little more than stereotypes. Where their race is PART of their POWERSET.

Nowadays creators are more likely to have interacted and be from alot of different backgrounds so the way characters are introduced has changed. We get meaningful characters of all creeds. The problem is fans dont really accept new characters across the board regardless of race. So its hard for any new character to gain a foothold.

So people are going to see a problem when a bunch of minority characters are written out, or simply killed off. Theres so little in proportion its a big impact. I see it in the same light as the Gen X conspiracy, where you have these characters who arent allowed to grow past a certain point. So you start to use them as cannon fodder for you "real" stars.
Definately.

I think another contributory factor is many creators having a tendancy to use what they remembered and loved, but what they remember is an even less diverse 'verse than now with stereotypes and bad characterisation the norm for different ethnicities. ~shrug~

It will be a nice and happy day where characters are consistantly created/used who are Native American/Aboriginal/Yeti/homosexual, where those can be incidental factors to who they are & not automatic 'story points' because they're 'different'.

We're still (western world) in a period of social flux, only in the last decade has homosexuality been seen openly in the media (Brookside, Queer as Folk, Buffy, Ellen, The L Word, Will & Grace), yet when they crop up in mainstream programs the tendancy is that they become the token gay guy/girl for the 'gay affair' - if they have a plot line that doesn't revolve around that, it's pretty unusual. Yet the reality is that being attracted to the same sex is not rare. I'm rambling, I had a point....somewhere...I'm gonna go now.

[Callisto]

1. We know there are more than 198 mutants left.

2. We don't know the makeup of those who are left.

3. There are still plenty of "non-caucasian" mutants left - Surge, Storm, Living Monolith, Karma, Warpath, Debrii, Neal Shaara, to name a few.

4. Who's to say that Homo-sapien constructs of "race" really even apply to, say, Nightcrawler - who's been blue for most of his life, or Indra, who's purple, or Prism, who's not really any "color" and doesn't really look "human" at all?

5. Mutation in the Marvel Universe happens regardless of race, so why should a change that effects only mutant genes not effect those of certain ethnicities/races? In other words, if Mutation is colorblind, so should be "unmutation."



okay you are all thinking in terms of the comic realm but i'm thinking more along the lines of the x-men as a comic book and how they are portrayed visuallly. there arent that many ethnic mutants in x-men and to depower the few that are there make it seem like only white people can become mutants.Showing the various races effected by mutancy that they once showed with these now depowered character showed that mutancy effected every race.I mean just look at the x-men cast in the movies there is only one non white mutant in the team and please don't say "but beast is blue" he's still white just with fur.

[Mariah]

okay you are all thinking in terms of the comic realm but i'm thinking more along the lines of the x-men as a comic book and how they are portrayed visuallly. there arent that many ethnic mutants in x-men and to depower the few that are there make it seem like only white people can become mutants.Showing the various races effected by mutancy that they once showed with these now depowered character showed that mutancy effected every race.I mean just look at the x-men cast in the movies there is only one non white mutant in the team and please don't say "but beast is blue" he's still white just with fur.
Maybe it's from all the inbreeding that white people do? I joke, I kid

[Callisto]

In terms of the X-books, there is an incredible representation of minorites..

OH really? give me a list of all the brazillian mutants, all the ethiopian mutants, taiwan mutants, can't? not surprised, even if you do manage to come up with ONE he/she has probably been depowered or killed. mutation needs to be shown to effect the masses and its hard to do that when half the mutants shown appear white.

[Brian M.]

OH really? give me a list of all the brazillian mutants, all the ethiopian mutants, taiwan mutants, can't? not surprised, even if you do manage to come up with ONE he/she has probably been depowered or killed.

Ok you see no answer is gonna satisfy what your looking for. Do you want an all Black X-Team? Look at Claremonts X-Treme team. You had Ororo, Bishop, Thunderbird III, Psylocke and Beast. I know I'm forgetting a few but that right there is a good racially mixed team. Who on that team has kept their powers...haven't all of them?

I don't think it matters that there isn't a larger mix. You have to look at where Xavier recruited, they live in Upstate New York not exaclty a minority rich area. Go through the 198 Handbook and see how many ethnicities there are. I think a big deal is being made out of nothing here.

[dazzler_slave]

okay you are all thinking in terms of the comic realm but i'm thinking more along the lines of the x-men as a comic book and how they are portrayed visuallly. there arent that many ethnic mutants in x-men and to depower the few that are there make it seem like only white people can become mutants.Showing the various races effected by mutancy that they once showed with these now depowered character showed that mutancy effected every race.I mean just look at the x-men cast in the movies there is only one non white mutant in the team and please don't say "but beast is blue" he's still white just with fur.
I totally agree Callisto. Plus, I like how people say "Look at all the non-white mutants out there! There are a lot of them!" So basically we are expected to add together all the groups of people who are not white into one group to compare. Personally I think that there should be as many black mutants as white. More Asian mutants than white, as many latinos as white, and many more arabic and Native American mutants than there are. Heck, with India's population, it's ridiculous that there have only ever been 3 mutants to come out of there!

[Brian M.]

I totally agree Callisto. Plus, I like how people say "Look at all the non-white mutants out there! There are a lot of them!" So basically we are expected to add together all the groups of people who are not white into one group to compare. Personally I think that there should be as many black mutants as white. More Asian mutants than white, as many latinos as white, and many more arabic and Native American mutants than there are. Heck, with India's population, it's ridiculous that there have only ever been 3 mutants to come out of there!

There probably was but thanks to Whacky Wanda 90% of them are gone, hell probably more then 90%. If the number was over a million mutants 10% would be 100,000 and we know there isn't that many left so it's more like 99% were depowered. If they majority of the mutants we knew were white then it makes complete sense that if you cut away 99% down the line your'll still have a majority white.

[dazzler_slave]

There probably was but thanks to Whacky Wanda 90% of them are gone, hell probably more then 90%. If the number was over a million mutants 10% would be 100,000 and we know there isn't that many left so it's more like 99% were depowered. If they majority of the mutants we knew were white then it makes complete sense that if you cut away 99% down the line your'll still have a majority white.
But the point I'm making is that it is crappy that most of the mutants are white. We NEED racial diversity in comics and throwing in Storm and Psylocke as a couple of tokens simply isn't good enough. And yes, I would love to see an all black X-Team for awhile. What's wrong with that? There have been times when there were all white X-Teams. Fair's fair! :)

[Mariah]

But the point I'm making is that it is crappy that most of the mutants are white. We NEED racial diversity in comics and throwing in Storm and Psylocke as a couple of tokens simply isn't good enough. And yes, I would love to see an all black X-Team for awhile. What's wrong with that? There have been times when there were all white X-Teams. Fair's fair! :)
I got some names for em

We'd have Storm
and Bishop
then We have Big Mama
Jigga boo
and Shawty

[dazzler_slave]

I got some names for em

We'd have Storm
and Bishop
then We have Big Mama
Jigga boo
and Shawty
Hahahaha too funny!

Seriously tho, it would be kinda interesting to see a lineup that kinda went like:

Storm
Dani Moonstar
Psylocke
Cecilia Reyes
Thunderbird (Neal)
Warpath
Bishop
Northstar

Wouldn't that make for an interesting team? They are all great characters as well as being minorities so it might make for an interesting dynamic!

[dazzler_slave]

Oh, and more on topic, I posted a few months ago my displeasure at how in recent years Marvel has killed or de-powered pretty much all of their latino mutants (Skin, Wind Dancer, Tag, Cecilia Reyes, Feral, Thornn) and someone's response was "Well you still have Sunspot and really, the rest sucked anyway". Oh, gee, thanks Marvel! Now we should be happy because we still have Sunspot, the token latin mutant! Oh and Rictor is still around too, even tho he's de-powered. Why should that be enough?

[Callisto]

Do you want an all Black X-Team? ..

where on earth did you get that from my post? i'm asking for marvel to wake up and realise how poorly there lacking the the ethnicly diverse mutant population and ease up on the depowering/killing of them.





Do you want an all Black X-Team? Look at Claremonts X-Treme team. You had Ororo, Bishop, Thunderbird III, Psylocke and Beast. I know I'm forgetting a few but that right there is a good racially mixed team. Who on that team has kept their powers...haven't all of them? ..


do you see me complaining about the x-treme x-men team? two black characters and one hindu one does not at all show that mutancy has no racial boundaries. besides your point is meaningless considering that team is no more and i bet you anything if neal shows up again he will be DEPOWERED. not that i really mind that much considering he was a dreadful character.

I don't think it matters that there isn't a larger mix. You have to look at where Xavier recruited, they live in Upstate New York not exaclty a minority rich area. Go through the 198 Handbook and see how many ethnicities there are. I think a big deal is being made out of nothing here.



AND WAT? its a comic book surely all xavier needs to do is hope in his x-jet and in less then two minutes hes all the way in singapor. for a man who apparently went around the world gatheting mutants he sure missed out on alot of continents.

[Faded]

Oh, and more on topic, I posted a few months ago my displeasure at how in recent years Marvel has killed or de-powered pretty much all of their latino mutants (Skin, Wind Dancer, Tag, Cecilia Reyes, Feral, Thornn) and someone's response was "Well you still have Sunspot and really, the rest sucked anyway". Oh, gee, thanks Marvel! Now we should be happy because we still have Sunspot, the token latin mutant! Oh and Rictor is still around too, even tho he's de-powered. Why should that be enough?

I remember this thread! In fact, I read it last night while trying to search for another thread!

You speak the truth though, Clarence. :cool:

[Tre Styles]

Oh, and more on topic, I posted a few months ago my displeasure at how in recent years Marvel has killed or de-powered pretty much all of their latino mutants (Skin, Wind Dancer, Tag, Cecilia Reyes, Feral, Thornn) and someone's response was "Well you still have Sunspot and really, the rest sucked anyway". Oh, gee, thanks Marvel! Now we should be happy because we still have Sunspot, the token latin mutant! Oh and Rictor is still around too, even tho he's de-powered. Why should that be enough?
It shouldn't be enough, and there are very valid points that have been raised. It's not "enough".There is a lack of minority characters as a whole, and in the X-Men in particular. Yes, we can say that we have some, but if you look at the Astonishing team for example...what minority is represented? Cultures are represented, such as Russian and Jewish. If you just look at the current roster of each X-Book, there are very few, if any minorities represented. Maybe one or two on each team. It's been that way for a loong time now. I don't believe that the minority mutants are being written out, decimated, put into limbo, or killed off on purpose, but it sure looks that way. At least DC is taking a somewhat conscious effort to introduce more minorities, and hopefully, they'll continue to follow suit in writing them well. Because that's the main reason why they don't survive. The writers and editors and the editors in chiefs must get involved in promoting these characters, and giving them promienent roles. If not, they'll continue to be background characters, and other readers won't understand why we're making "a big deal out of this" because the characters weren't really focused on to begin with. If you're going to make a minority character, or any character really, you need to develop them, and this doesn't happen overnight. It takes time, effort, and care. I think that the people who created the characters surely cared for them, but someone else who picked up their character after they left didn't. I like that we have Bishop, Storm, Dust, and Monet, but can we get more development on the very few that are remaining? It would be nice.

[Zombienorthstar]

So if there isn't a story in their ethnic background, a new character should just be automatically "white"?

Luke Cage is a fab example actually. He's now one of my favourite characters (because of the current writer) - who just happens to be black.


I think youve got the wrong end of what i was saying here...i meant that minority characters should be kept because of the quality of their storylines not because of their minority status,

Unfortunatley due to the majority of writers being white men these characters can tend to be stereotypes and therefore AREN'T usually good characters (with noteable exceptions). Im all for more minorities in comics...but because the character can be written well not because they were shoe horned in to fulfill some quota...

[Brian M.]

where on earth did you get that from my post? i'm asking for marvel to wake up and realise how poorly there lacking the the ethnicly diverse mutant population and ease up on the depowering/killing of them.

do you see me complaining about the x-treme x-men team? two black characters and one hindu one does not at all show that mutancy has no racial boundaries. besides your point is meaningless considering that team is no more and i bet you anything if neal shows up again he will be DEPOWERED. not that i really mind that much considering he was a dreadful character.

AND WAT? its a comic book surely all xavier needs to do is hope in his x-jet and in less then two minutes hes all the way in singapor. for a man who apparently went around the world gatheting mutants he sure missed out on alot of continents.

We've seen characters of different minorities come and go, it's not Marvel's fault noone took an interest in them. Also different minorities doesn't have to mean different skin color. The majority of the all-new all-different team were from different countries. Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Banshee, Sunfire, I think Thunderbird was the only one from America. So some of them happen to be white big fucking deal. You are screaming for diversity but there is already diversity just not in the way you want.

[Steven F.]

By the way, Neil has been confirmed as still having his powers.

[dazzler_slave]

I think youve got the wrong end of what i was saying here...i meant that minority characters should be kept because of the quality of their storylines not because of their minority status,

Unfortunatley due to the majority of writers being white men these characters can tend to be stereotypes and therefore AREN'T usually good characters (with noteable exceptions). Im all for more minorities in comics...but because the character can be written well not because they were shoe horned in to fulfill some quota...
Yeah, but this common argument irritates me too. There are a tonne of badly written white characters who don't get the boot. Iceman is a great example of that! But everytime there is a minority character that is written badly, comic book writers and readers knee jerk reactions are to just kill them off instead of doing something wild and attempting to write them well! It can be done, trust me. A great example is Dani oonstar. When she first appeared she was the stereotypical Native American with a chip on her shoulder who is angry at the white man and wears feathers and fringe. By the end of her time on the New Mutants and more recently in New X-Men she had grown into a well rounded character with a lot of depth. Same with Warpath. Luke Cage went from the biggest example of 70's blaxploitation to a great character. It can be done, but if you just kill them or depower them then there is no chance to do this.

[dazzler_slave]

We've seen characters of different minorities come and go, it's not Marvel's fault noone took an interest in them. Also different minorities doesn't have to mean different skin color. The majority of the all-new all-different team were from different countries. Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Banshee, Sunfire, I think Thunderbird was the only one from America. So some of them happen to be white big fucking deal. You are screaming for diversity but there is already diversity just not in the way you want.
A bunch of white people from around the world may be more diverse than a bunch of Americans, but it still is not as diverse as I would like. And maybe people would take an interest in minority characters if Marvel put any faith in them. I'm not saying that we are going to see a score of solo titles starring minorities, but it would be nice to see a larger representation in team books. That way people could still get their white heroes and maybe be exposed to heroes of other cultures.

Financially, I am surprised that Marvel hasn't yet realized that maybe if there were more Black, Asian, Latino and Native American heroes of note, then maybe they would draw in more black, Asian, Latino and Native American readers.

[Zombienorthstar]

Yeah, but this common argument irritates me too. There are a tonne of badly written white characters who don't get the boot. Iceman is a great example of that! But everytime there is a minority character that is written badly, comic book writers and readers knee jerk reactions are to just kill them off instead of doing something wild and attempting to write them well! It can be done, trust me. A great example is Dani oonstar. When she first appeared she was the stereotypical Native American with a chip on her shoulder who is angry at the white man and wears feathers and fringe. By the end of her time on the New Mutants and more recently in New X-Men she had grown into a well rounded character with a lot of depth. Same with Warpath. Luke Cage went from the biggest example of 70's blaxploitation to a great character. It can be done, but if you just kill them or depower them then there is no chance to do this.


To be fair though D_S there must be tons of white characters whove gotten the boot..we just dont notice it in race terms because the characters are mainly white.

[dazzler_slave]

It shouldn't be enough, and there are very valid points that have been raised. It's not "enough".There is a lack of minority characters as a whole, and in the X-Men in particular. Yes, we can say that we have some, but if you look at the Astonishing team for example...what minority is represented? Cultures are represented, such as Russian and Jewish. If you just look at the current roster of each X-Book, there are very few, if any minorities represented. Maybe one or two on each team. It's been that way for a loong time now. I don't believe that the minority mutants are being written out, decimated, put into limbo, or killed off on purpose, but it sure looks that way. At least DC is taking a somewhat conscious effort to introduce more minorities, and hopefully, they'll continue to follow suit in writing them well. Because that's the main reason why they don't survive. The writers and editors and the editors in chiefs must get involved in promoting these characters, and giving them promienent roles. If not, they'll continue to be background characters, and other readers won't understand why we're making "a big deal out of this" because the characters weren't really focused on to begin with. If you're going to make a minority character, or any character really, you need to develop them, and this doesn't happen overnight. It takes time, effort, and care. I think that the people who created the characters surely cared for them, but someone else who picked up their character after they left didn't. I like that we have Bishop, Storm, Dust, and Monet, but can we get more development on the very few that are remaining? It would be nice.
I agree with so much of what you say here Tre. We need to see further development of the non-whie characters we still have.

[dazzler_slave]

To be fair though D_S there must be tons of white characters whove gotten the boot..we just dont notice it in race terms because the characters are mainly white.
And again that's comes back to the smaller number of non-white characters. Something Marvel needs to work on. Do you really think we would care so much that Tag was dead if there were a lot of better written latino characters out there?

[Zombienorthstar]

And again that's comes back to the smaller number of non-white characters. Something Marvel needs to work on. Do you really think we would care so much that Tag was dead if there were a lot of better written latino characters out there?


Thats my point...

If the only interesting thing about Tag is that hes latino...then isnt it kind of patronising and racist to only keep him for that reason....Shouldnt we work one bringing out good characters who just HAPPEN to be latino? Isnt it incredibly patronising to keep Tag alive just so Marvel can go 'where not racist...we have a latino' when actually they should be going 'this is a great character'

[Faded]

A bunch of white people from around the world may be more diverse than a bunch of Americans, but it still is not as diverse as I would like. And maybe people would take an interest in minority characters if Marvel put any faith in them. I'm not saying that we are going to see a score of solo titles starring minorities, but it would be nice to see a larger representation in team books. That way people could still get their white heroes and maybe be exposed to heroes of other cultures.

Financially, I am surprised that Marvel hasn't yet realized that maybe if there were more Black, Asian, Latino and Native American heroes of note, then maybe they would draw in more black, Asian, Latino and Native American readers.

I couldn't agree more.

I think there have been some fantastic minority characters, but they are victim to cannon fodderness. Its not all about the color of their skin, but the world that these characters create--and when some parts are nonexistant and downplayed, it just feels incomplete and...well wrong. :D

And I really agree with Marvel trying to take notice of their audience as well. They should realize they have fans from all over and not just do something about it when they are in cooperation with the head of a ethnic cable network. ;)

[dazzler_slave]

Thats my point...

If the only interesting thing about Tag is that hes latino...then isnt it kind of patronising and racist to only keep him for that reason....Shouldnt we work one bringing out good characters who just HAPPEN to be latino? Isnt it incredibly patronising to keep Tag alive just so Marvel can go 'where not racist...we have a latino' when actually they should be going 'this is a great character'
But the thing is sweetie, if Tag had been given a chance to develp he might very well have become interesting. He was starting to get an interesting personality in the Hellions mini and maybe he could have been a great character.

BTW, saying that Marvel is killing off their non white characters as a way to avoid being patronising is not a good argument in my book. I'd rather see more non white characters appear and then build on them. Then we won't have to worry about whether or not it is considered patronising to have them in a comic.

[Zombienorthstar]

But the thing is sweetie, if Tag had been given a chance to develp he might very well have become interesting. He was starting to get an interesting personality in the Hellions mini and maybe he could have been a great character.

BTW, saying that Marvel is killing off their non white characters as a way to avoid being patronising is not a good argument in my book. I'd rather see more non white characters appear and then build on them. Then we won't have to worry about whether or not it is considered patronising to have them in a comic.


So would i...but i wouldnt want them kept alive JUST because of their race.

[Callisto]

We've seen characters of different minorities come and go, it's not Marvel's fault noone took an interest in them. Also different minorities doesn't have to mean different skin color. The majority of the all-new all-different team were from different countries. Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Banshee, Sunfire, I think Thunderbird was the only one from America. So some of them happen to be white big fucking deal. You are screaming for diversity but there is already diversity just not in the way you want.


yes we have seen different minorities but not many of them and the few that are around that even have somwhat of a fanbase such as moonstar and jubilliee have been DEPOWERED.No one took an interest in them? well thats debateable since you don't no everyone and not every ethnic character that has appeared has been shunted off simply because no one liked them. SOME of the x-men being white is not a big deal but MOST of them being white or any one race IS. x-men is suppose to be about different people from different backround coming together and fighting for the greater good thats why earlier on the cast was much more diverse as you described with colossaus, storm,sunfire etc it showed that mutancy was effecting people worldwide. but in later years it seems the x-men cast is COMPLETELY white with the exception of one ethnic character thrown in to please the minority fans.But thats not really what i'm arguing about, my main problem is that marvel is depowering what little ethnic miniority mutants there are.

[Callisto]

Thats my point...

If the only interesting thing about Tag is that hes latino...then isnt it kind of patronising and racist to only keep him for that reason....Shouldnt we work one bringing out good characters who just HAPPEN to be latino? Isnt it incredibly patronising to keep Tag alive just so Marvel can go 'where not racist...we have a latino' when actually they should be going 'this is a great character'


i found tag interesting aswell as his powers depowering him was a big mistake in my opinion. marvel should definetly have spared him from the depowering treament because tag was a new character and ALOT more could have been done with him if given a chance.

[dazzler_slave]

yes we have seen different minorities but not many of them and the few that are around that even have somwhat of a fanbase such as moonstar and jubilliee have been DEPOWERED.No one took an interest in them? well thats debateable since you don't no everyone and not every ethnic character that has appeared has been shunted off simply because no one liked them. SOME of the x-men being white is not a big deal but MOST of them being white or any one race IS. x-men is suppose to be about different people from different backround coming together and fighting for the greater good thats why earlier on the cast was much more diverse as you described with colossaus, storm,sunfire etc it showed that mutancy was effecting people worldwide. but in later years it seems the x-men cast is COMPLETELY white with the exception of one ethnic character thrown in to please the minority fans.But thats not really what i'm arguing about, my main problem is that marvel is depowering what little ethnic miniority mutants there are.
UTV seems to be deliberately trying to misrepresent what you and I are trying to say. I'm not sure why but he seems threatened by the idea of more ethnic characters. I love you Bri, but why so upset?

[Callisto]

By the way, Neil has been confirmed as still having his powers.

really, where?

[Haunt]

Synch and Skin shouldn't have died.

[Beast]

really, where?
He's in the 198 Handbook as confirmed having his powers.

[Faded]

i found tag interesting aswell as his powers depowering him was a big mistake in my opinion. marvel should definetly have spared him from the depowering treament because tag was a new character and ALOT more could have been done with him if given a chance.

Not that I don't agree with you, but weren't you one of the people in support of killing/depowering a bunch of the kids in New X-Men? :confused:

[D-LO]

Synch and Skin shouldn't have died. Agreed and Bedlam should'nt have died either!!!

[Faded]

Risque shouldn't have died! :mad:

[Callisto]

Not that I don't agree with you, but weren't you one of the people in support of killing/depowering a bunch of the kids in New X-Men? :confused:


yes many of them i felt deserved to be extinguished from the face of the marvel universe such as the irritating laurie but others such as tag i felt truly didn't need to be removed.

[Callisto]

He's in the 198 Handbook as confirmed having his powers.


interesting, he's probably being kept around to be used as cannon fodder for a future issue new x-men. :p

[Vaal]

Don't worry guys, Quicksilver's going to make everything aaaaalright.

You didn't think he could be re-powering mutants in the US where SHEILD stands ready and willing to grind any possibilty of mutants getting thier powers back into dust, did you?

[Callisto]

UTV seems to be deliberately trying to misrepresent what you and I are trying to say. I'm not sure why but he seems threatened by the idea of more ethnic characters. I love you Bri, but why so upset?


clearly, it isn't healthy for him to get so worked up over a simple debate wouldn't you agree.:D

[Brian M.]

clearly, it isn't healthy for him to get so worked up over a simple debate wouldn't you agree.:D

You haven't seen me worked up. I just don't see the big Fing deal. It's not like Marvel is being racist about this I don't see anything wrong in the way things are playing out. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point if I am, my bad but I just don't see understand why. A lot of it has to do w/ the fact not a lot of characters get the long term popularity that the others have. I mean look at the dam Gen X team. That was a very very racially diverse team but despite the long term series they just didn't hold up well sales wise and they got shipped off to limbo or murdered.

[Bobster777]

Don't worry guys, Quicksilver's going to make everything aaaaalright.

You didn't think he could be re-powering mutants in the US where SHEILD stands ready and willing to grind any possibilty of mutants getting thier powers back into dust, did you?

His powers are screwy.

Spoiler
They haven't been able to restore anyone's powers for good.
End of spoiler

[Callisto]

Risque shouldn't have died! :mad:


definetly not.:( especially off panel.

[Callisto]

You haven't seen me worked up. I just don't see the big Fing deal. It's not like Marvel is being racist about this I don't see anything wrong in the way things are playing out. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point if I am, my bad but I just don't see understand why. A lot of it has to do w/ the fact not a lot of characters get the long term popularity that the others have. I mean look at the dam Gen X team. That was a very very racially diverse team but despite the long term series they just didn't hold up well sales wise and they got shipped off to limbo or murdered.


the gen x team was holding up sales wise, the reason it was cancelled was because joe queseda read the sales wrong and cancelled the book once he realised what he had done it was to late. He simply didn't bother to restart the book again.From this statement it seems that you believe that books will not succed if the cast is racially diverse which is far from the truth, if the storylines are good aswell as the characters a book will succeed.Anyways we have explicitly stated why we feel the depowering of minority characters is a problem throughout this thread. If you haven't gotten it by now why it bothers us then i suppose you won't ever understand.

[tetragene]

lol, if UTVol8102 is "misunderstanding" what people are posting then from the looks of things the same is being down with some of the posters that respond to his posts. Because I totally didn't get the impression that he thinks a book of racially-diverse characters is auto-doomed for failure.

I can understand to a degree the problem. I mean, in theory I think it'd be nice for there to be more gay male characters (there are "insinuated as gay/bi" female characters almost out the ying-yang, lol)--but I wouldn't want for a gay character to be included (or excluded from certain events) just because they are gay. I could probably relate to some of the stories involving a gay character (provided its not a flamin' stereotype), but I relate just as easily to straight characters (the only gay characters I like are Wiccan and Hulking--all my other faves are straight). I think there are great stories that can come from a character being a minority, but when you get into the practice of "excluding" a character from a fate or "event" just because they are asian/black/gay/latino/etc then I don't think that's a good message to send. The "they're white, there's plenty of 'em, it's ok to 'off' 'em" p.o.v. is equally insulting, I think. And under-represented characters go far beyond racial minorites--there's not a large group of Swedish heroes or Southern U.S. heroes. And I agree with whichever poster (sorry, I can't recall who in particular) that said there have been plenty of white characters that were reduced to fodder status and shuttled off to limbo or death--but a big deal isn't made about it, despite the fact that they may have been good characters. Dazzler? White, blonde female--she's DEFINITELY the brunt of many a jokes, considered as fodder by many, and was shuttles off to limbo for over a decade.

I really don't think there's any underlying racism as to which characters are chosen to bite the big one or have the powers taken away. And stories can certainly still be told with depowered characters (Rictor being an example and apparently Jubilee will be playing an important part in the Wolverine Origin series). Like when people were screaming "homophobia" when Northstar was killed off in Wolverine. I honestly couldn't believe people were being serious. Yeah, the circumstances may have sucked and it might have been lame that one of the only gay male heroes was killed (even though he was ressurected shortly after)--but really, I don't think it was the decision of a homophobic writer to kill him off. If Northstar had been portrayed as a raging queen and THEN killed off, then yeah--I definitely would have gotten homophobic vibes, lol.

Once again, I can understand where both sides of this debate are coming from. There is a difficiency of "minority" characters (which certainly extends beyond race) in the Marvel Universe, but I don't think there's an agenda behind it (and white heroes are killed, limbo'ed, depowered, etc just as easily)

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I agree, it seems that all the mutants that got depowered were the non white ones. Well mostly. But then again there are barely an non white x men or mutants to begin with.

Sigh.

[Beast]

I agree, it seems that all the mutants that got depowered were the non white ones. Well mostly. But then again there are barely an non white x men or mutants to begin with.

Sigh.
Especially if you just generalize them into the white category, and ignore how many non-American characters make up the X-Men. Which seems to be what everyone does, when they start these discussions. ;)

[Foley]

It seems there is a lot of angst that the majority of X-men are white. I personally don't give a damn if they turn Cyclops black so long as he is a well written character. However, don't you think if the X-men were based in Tokyo instead of New York that the majority of the team would be Asian? Its also fairly easy to say the "white" X-men outnumber the minorities, but they are also representing minorities such as Jewish, Gay, Irish, Russian, and Canadian. Lumping all the white characters together is just as bad an argument as saying that all the minorities combined is equal to the white characters.

[Brian M.]

the gen x team was holding up sales wise, the reason it was cancelled was because joe queseda read the sales wrong and cancelled the book once he realised what he had done it was to late. He simply didn't bother to restart the book again.From this statement it seems that you believe that books will not succed if the cast is racially diverse which is far from the truth, if the storylines are good aswell as the characters a book will succeed.Anyways we have explicitly stated why we feel the depowering of minority characters is a problem throughout this thread. If you haven't gotten it by now why it bothers us then i suppose you won't ever understand.

A lot of new characters turn out to be of different races, the problem is they aren't well written. It is harder to break in new characters b/c they aren't given the time to develop like Storm or Sunfire are.

You have some kind of arrogant tone in your voice and it makes it almost impossible for to give a about your post and the point you might even make in them. Don't fucking talk down to me.

[Midnite]

Some of the mutants Quicksilver repowers end up dying.

[Nyssane]

yes many of them i felt deserved to be extinguished from the face of the marvel universe such as the irritating laurie but others such as tag i felt truly didn't need to be removed.

Maybe they should've killed off all the white students and kept all the ethnic ones just to please you. :p

I honestly don't notice the races of characters. I mean, I do, but it's something that just isn't that important. I actually read comics and not just look at the pretty pictures. And I don't think any character, even as "annoying" as Laurie, deserves to be killed in such a gruesome manner as the characters of New X-Men. Maybe it's just the compassionate...y'know, human side of me showing.

I mean, if you want to get into MAJOR minority characters...where's all the fat chicks? We get Blob, we get that guy from that other comic (New Warriors? Whatev), we get Mammomax the fat elephant. And we also get Big Bertha, who can turn into a superhumanly hot super model. If non-white people need characters as their role models, don't you think overweight girls do, too?

[Zombienorthstar]

i found tag interesting aswell as his powers depowering him was a big mistake in my opinion. marvel should definetly have spared him from the depowering treament because tag was a new character and ALOT more could have been done with him if given a chance.


see thats the reason they should save tag...not because hes a latino. race shouldnt be an issue.

[Beast]

I mean, if you want to get into MAJOR minority characters...where's all the fat chicks? We get Blob, we get that guy from that other comic (New Warriors? Whatev), we get Mammomax the fat elephant. And we also get Big Bertha, who can turn into a superhumanly hot super model. If non-white people need characters as their role models, don't you think overweight girls do, too?
Well, it sorta makes sense that there isn't too many overweight characters. After all, they are heroes and villains. You would think their lifestyles would keep them in shape. You do have large people like the ones you mentioned, and Beast and Strong Guy. Not fat persay, but certainly not slim builds. :)

[Zombienorthstar]

Well, it sorta makes sense that there isn't too many overweight characters. After all, they are heroes and villains. You would think their lifestyles would keep them in shape. You do have large people like the ones you mentioned, and Beast and Strong Guy. Not fat persay, but certainly not slim builds. :)


Yeah but to be fair...some characters dont do alot of physical fighting...especially if there powers are like long range energy based etc....i wonder if like self propelled flight uses any muscles?

[Brian M.]

Again, it's not like Marvel hasn't tried to add more race into these teams it's just that the characters aren't interesting that they do introduce. So they get killed off or shipped into Limbo. Also I think it's wrong just to look at the skin color of these characters, we have plenty of diversity in the X-Men Universe, they just come from different parts of the world.

[Nyssane]

Well, it sorta makes sense that there isn't too many overweight characters. After all, they are heroes and villains. You would think their lifestyles would keep them in shape. You do have large people like the ones you mentioned, and Beast and Strong Guy. Not fat persay, but certainly not slim builds. :)

Well, Jean Grey's not exactly an expert in martial arts. ;) You'd think she'd have packed on the pounds after a while.

Notice how all the large people are men, anyway? The women should be at least moderately muscular if, as you say my love, their lifestyles were as active.

Anyway, my point is that where does the spiral end? It continues and continues. There's not enough characters with freckles. Or acne. Or back hair. I think everyone should just read the books for what they are instead of worrying if every quota for a minority is filled.

I'm (obviously) gay, and (obviously) I look up to gay characters. But that doesn't mean I don't look up to straight characters. Sexual preference is just that. Comics shouldn't be governed by it or race or anything else.

That said, bring on the fat girls! Where's Thumbelina at?

(hopefully making time with Deadpool. fap fap)

[An Average Madri]

I want Jubilee back! I have Yellow Fever, seriously.

[Tommy]

4. Who's to say that Homo-sapien constructs of "race" really even apply to, say, Nightcrawler - who's been blue for most of his life, or Indra, who's purple, or Prism, who's not really any "color" and doesn't really look "human" at all?
X-Force says it is. The Spike told Edie that she was white, dispite the fact that she has blue skin.

God how I miss X-Force.

[Vaal]

I want Jubilee back! I have Yellow Fever, seriously.
Its the raincoat isn't it? :p

[Callisto]

It seems there is a lot of angst that the majority of X-men are white. I personally don't give a damn if they turn Cyclops black so long as he is a well written character. However, don't you think if the X-men were based in Tokyo instead of New York that the majority of the team would be Asian? Its also fairly easy to say the "white" X-men outnumber the minorities, but they are also representing minorities such as Jewish, Gay, Irish, Russian, and Canadian. Lumping all the white characters together is just as bad an argument as saying that all the minorities combined is equal to the white characters.


but where they are based shouldn't have representation of what race the entire group is because charles apparently goes out and gathers mutants around the world.

[Zombienorthstar]

but where they are based shouldn't have representation of what race the entire group is because charles apparently goes out and gathers mutants around the world.

So lets think about this shall we...

theorise with me for a moment....


is it possible charles in assembling his first team wanted a group that the american public would accept (remembering when this was written of course) and so chose happy looking white kids?

So if anyones the racist...its Xavier :D

[Callisto]

A lot of new characters turn out to be of different races, the problem is they aren't well written. It is harder to break in new characters b/c they aren't given the time to develop like Storm or Sunfire are.

You have some kind of arrogant tone in your voice and it makes it almost impossible for to give a about your post and the point you might even make in them. Don't fucking talk down to me.


lmao clearly you are way to worked up. talking down to you? i am merely telling you the truth, if by now you haven't gotten the point of this thread then you are clearly lost beyond my help.Your talking about new characters appearing but being taken off because they aren't written well but that isn't the case for all of them, cecillia reyes was an excellent ethnic character so was moonstar yet they were extinguished. If anyone has an arrogant tone its you, you seem to have this need to consistently swear towards me inorder to insure that you are "the man" that shouldn't be told otherwise about his opinions. which is quite odd considering this is a message board and any intimidation you may have in the real world cannot be replicated on a forum.If my apparent tone makes you feel like you don't give a ____ about my posts then why are you still replying to them?

[Callisto]

Maybe they should've killed off all the white students and kept all the ethnic ones just to please you. :p?

that wouldn't please me at all, how dare you suggest such a thing.

I mean, if you want to get into MAJOR minority characters...where's all the fat chicks? We get Blob, we get that guy from that other comic (New Warriors? Whatev), we get Mammomax the fat elephant. And we also get Big Bertha, who can turn into a superhumanly hot super model. If non-white people need characters as their role models, don't you think overweight girls do, too?


that's a dreadful idea, if fat girls are shown in comics it will give young fat girls the idea that being obese is a good thing which is faaaaaaar from the case. the slim trim figures of women such as psylocke and storm will hopefully help motivate these obese girls into losing the extra pounds they have accquired.

[Zombienorthstar]

lmao clearly you are way to worked up. talking down to you? i am merely telling you the truth, if by now you haven't gotten the point of this thread then you are clearly lost beyond my help.Your talking about new characters appearing but being taken off because they aren't written well but that isn't the case for all of them, cecillia reyes was an excellent ethnic character so was moonstar yet they were extinguished. If anyone has an arrogant tone its you, you seem to have this need to consistently swear towards me inorder to insure that you are "the man" that shouldn't be told otherwise about his opinions. which is quite odd considering this is a message board and any intimidation you may have in the real world cannot be replicated on a forum.If my apparent tone makes you feel like you don't give a ____ about my posts then why are you still replying to them?

yeah but lots of white characters have experienced similar shuntings into limbo: slipstream, lifegaurd, skids, marrow, etc

good characters like Reyes are put into limbo...is this bad? yes. Is it some marvel conspiracy against minorities? Hardly...

[Zombienorthstar]

that's a dreadful idea, if fat girls are shown in comics it will give young fat girls the idea that being obese is a good thing which is faaaaaaar from the case. the slim trim figures of women such as psylocke and storm will hopefully help motivate these obese girls into losing the extra pounds they have accquired.


or to become bulimic or anorexic in trying to achieve the unrealistic proportions of the X-women.

[Callisto]

So lets think about this shall we...

theorise with me for a moment....


is it possible charles in assembling his first team wanted a group that the american public would accept (remembering when this was written of course) and so chose happy looking white kids?

So if anyones the racist...its Xavier :D


not really, weren't the x-men suppose to be like a secrete undercover force back in those days? i don't think there was public knowledge of them.

[Beast]

that's a dreadful idea, if fat girls are shown in comics it will give young fat girls the idea that being obese is a good thing which is faaaaaaar from the case. the slim trim figures of women such as psylocke and storm will hopefully help motivate these obese girls into losing the extra pounds they have accquired.
Do you listen to yourself? I should honestly hope you're kidding. Because girls trying to make themselves look like the 'ideal supermodel' is what leads to Anorexia and Bulimia.

[Beast]

not really, weren't the x-men suppose to be like a secrete undercover force back in those days? i don't think there was public knowledge of them.
You clearly didn't read those early stories then. The X-Men were publically known, though they did have secret idenities. And yes, Charles recruited his first team from the United States... so what?

[Zombienorthstar]

not really, weren't the x-men suppose to be like a secrete undercover force back in those days? i don't think there was public knowledge of them.


nope in their first two issues they were actually shown to be given public adoration...


as said in morrisons X-Men

BEAST: I was never sure why you had us dress up as superheroes anyway, proffessor.

CYCLOPS: The professor thought people would trust the X-Men if they looked like something they understood.

PROF X: That's correct Scott.

[Beast]

nope in their first two issues they were actually shown to be given public adoration...


as said in morrisons X-Men

BEAST: I was never sure why you had us dress up as superheroes anyway, proffessor.

CYCLOPS: The professor thought people would trust the X-Men if they looked like something they understood.

PROF X: That's correct Scott.
Well, I wouldn't use Morrison's argument as the end all and beat all argument, since he didn't seem to understand the fact that the X-Men were Superheroes. Always have been, always will be. ;)

[Zombienorthstar]

Do you listen to yourself? I should honestly hope you're kidding. Because girls trying to make themselves look like the 'ideal supermodel' is what leads to Anorexia and Bulimia.

Exactly...how is the image below realistically obtainable for anyone?

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/costume/psylocke-bigcostume6.jpg

Im fairly sure these proortions are near impossible.

[Faded]

OMG I can't believe where this topic is headed...

What's wrong with thick girls? I loved how Angel S. was drawn thick and when Rachel was drawn thick when we had a fill-in during Claremont's most recent run on Uncanny (don't remember the artist though).

Now if they all were heavy, that may be giving a message (most likely unintended). But to have at least some realistically curvy awesome characters who happen to not look like Lindsay Lohan squatting in front of a toilet is just as important IMO as having some awesome Latino, Asian, etc. characters. ;)

[Beast]

OMG I can't believe where this topic is headed...

What's wrong with thick girls? I loved how Angel S. was drawn thick and when Rachel was drawn thick when we had a fill-in during Claremont's most recent run on Uncanny (don't remember the artist though).

Now if they all were heavy, that may be giving a message (most likely unintended). But to have at least some realistically curvy awesome characters who happen to not look like Lindsay Lohan squatting in front of a toilet is just as important IMO as having some awesome Latino, Asian, etc. characters. ;)
Yeah, Angel IV was a fairly realistic build character. Of course, she didn't want to be an X-Man, so didn't kill herself training to get in perfect shape. I can understand the actual X-Men being in goodshape however.

[Zombienorthstar]

OMG I can't believe where this topic is headed...

What's wrong with thick girls? I loved how Angel S. was drawn thick and when Rachel was drawn thick when we had a fill-in during Claremont's most recent run on Uncanny (don't remember the artist though).

Now if they all were heavy, that may be giving a message (most likely unintended). But to have at least some realistically curvy awesome characters who happen to not look like Lindsay Lohan squatting in front of a toilet is just as important IMO as having some awesome Latino, Asian, etc. characters. ;)

exactly..same with the boys...you can be fit without having all that muscle tone.

[Callisto]

You clearly didn't read those early stories then. The X-Men were publically known, though they did have secret idenities. And yes, Charles recruited his first team from the United States... so what?

yes i have read those issues its just been many years ago and i've had far to much of an actual life to go back on to re reading them so forgive me forgeting beast. oh and what was with the "so what" it was just a question that wasn't even geared towards you so you need to simmer down a bit.:rolleyes: any who, my point is that later on stories indicated that mutants were appearing not only in the states but numerous other countries, yet the x-men teams now barely show that.

[Callisto]

Do you listen to yourself? I should honestly hope you're kidding. Because girls trying to make themselves look like the 'ideal supermodel' is what leads to Anorexia and Bulimia.


I doubt super heroines in comic books is What leads to anorexia and bulimia in girls.

[Beast]

yes i have read those issues its just been many years ago and i've had far to much of an actual life to go back on to re reading them so forgive me forgeting beast. oh and what was with the "so what" it was just a question that wasn't even geared towards you so you need to simmer down a bit.:rolleyes: any who, my point is that later on stories indicated that mutants were appearing not only in the states but numerous other countries, yet the x-men teams now barely show that.
Who's simmered up? What's to simmer down over?

And they don't?
Since Giant-Size X-Men #1 (1975), the X-Men have also become famous for their wide cultural and ethnic diversity.

Storm, one of the first black superheroes.Long before international characters became popular in the comics world, the X-Men franchise brought in characters from all over the world such as from:

Africa: Algeria (M), Egypt (Apocalypse), Kenya (Storm), Maasai (Kidogo), Morocco (Jetstream), South Africa (Maggott)

The Americas: Apache (Thunderbird I, Warpath), Brazil (Sunspot), Cajun (Gambit), Canada (Sabretooth, Alpha Flight, Wolverine, and the Quebecois, Northstar and Aurora), Cheyenne (Forge, Mirage), Chinese American (Jubilee), Japanese American (Hisako Ichiki), Jewish American (Shadowcat), Mexican American (Feral, Thornn, Wraith, Skin), Mexico (Rictor), Puerto Rico (Cecilia Reyes, Tag), Venezuela (Wind Dancer)

Asia: Afghanistan (Dust, Sage), China (Xorn I and II), India (Indra, Thunderbird III), Israel (Sabra), Japan (Deathstrike, Psylocke/Revanche, Silver Samurai, Shinobi Shaw, Sunfire, Sunpyre, Surge, Yukio and Mariko Yashida), Philippines (Bishop), Thailand (Stonecutter, Tyger Tiger), Vietnam (Karma),

Europe: Austria (Mystique and Destiny), England (Jamie Braddock, Chamber, Psylocke/Revanche, Captain Britain, Mister Sinister, Pete Wisdom and Toad), France (Tarot and Fantomex, a non-native resident), Germany (Nightcrawler, Fenris and Maverick), Greece (Avalanche), Ireland (Banshee, Siryn and Black Tom Cassidy), Netherlands, (Beak), Poland (Magneto), Russia (Colossus, Omega Red, Darkstar, Magik, Soul Skinner, Mikhail Rasputin and Alexi Vazhin), Scotland (Wolfsbane and Moira MacTaggert), Spain (Empath), Italy (Unus)

Oceania: Aborigine (Gateway), Australia (Pyro, Slipstream, Lifeguard, Bishop), Hawaii (Loa), Samoa Islands (Mondo), Māori (Kiwi Black)
Of course, not all the above characters are still on teams... but the X-Men are still a fairly diverse group of indiduals. WASP's make up only a small portion of the members. And remember, countries like Russia, Japan, China, and a few others had programs to weed the mutant population out back in the early days. In fact... The Winter Guard were some of the few mutants in Russia to actually reach maturity. And there was also even a prison in Sibera for mutants who had missed the weeding process over the years.

[tetragene]

that's a dreadful idea, if fat girls are shown in comics it will give young fat girls the idea that being obese is a good thing which is faaaaaaar from the case. the slim trim figures of women such as psylocke and storm will hopefully help motivate these obese girls into losing the extra pounds they have accquired.

wow...I can't even believe you posted that. I don't think the message should be sent that "obese=good", but it's not good to send the message that girls who read comic books should go for unrealistic bodies like that of the X-Women...that's no more healthier than male fans striving for bodies like the X-Men have. A guy could literally kill himself trying to get Colossus' or Juggernaut's body (O_o) Likewise for a girl being "motivated" to get a "negative" figure waist like the one Psylocke has in the pic posted a few messages above. Plus...y'know, some hefty/obese people are comfortable in their own skin. There's certainly no harm in a person (or character) feeling comfortable with the weight they are at (particularly if it's not at dangerous levels).

[Callisto]

Who's simmered up? What's to simmer down over? ?


spare me:rolleyes:


And they don't?

what is the point of that list it proves nothing. how at all does that prove that the x-men teams are ethnicly diverse now? or that marvel isn't killing off or depowering half of the ethnic mutants which if anything that list proves that marvel is doing that since half of those ethnicly diverse mutants are either dead or depowered?

[Beast]

spare me:rolleyes:
No, spare me. And you know, the rolleyes emoticon is a big no-no around here.
what is the point of that list it proves nothing. how at all does that prove that the x-men teams are ethnicly diverse now? or that marvel isn't killing off or depowering half of the ethnic mutants which if anything that list proves that marvel is doing that since half of those ethnicly diverse mutants are either dead or depowered?
It only proves you're lumping everyone who's white into one category, while ignoring their cultural heritage. The X-Men at the moment are fairly diverse, with only the characters who were mostly introduced in the original run of the X-Men being the majority of the WASP characters. There's certainly just as many, if not more characters from other countries and cultures than there are American characters. And since the X-Mansion is based in America, it would make sense that a large number of it's students, staff, and teachers were American as well. Not everyone in the world is cut out to be an X-Man. :p

[tetragene]

what is the point of that list it proves nothing. how at all does that prove that the x-men teams are ethnicly diverse now? or that marvel isn't killing off or depowering half of the ethnic mutants which if anything that list proves that marvel is doing that since half of those ethnicly diverse mutants are either dead or depowered?

Even still--there are loads more ethnic characters than there are gay, diabetic, clinically depressed, Southern, Swedish, obese, and/or height-challenged characters...combined. Where's the representation for these groups? I could honestly empathize with you at first, but you really are lumping all white characters into one category and then making snap judgements like "there are so many lame and uninteresting white characters that aren't killed or depowered"--which isn't true, there've been quite a few who were interesting (and had fans) and still go limbo'ed or killed. You seem to be insinuating that if a character is an ethnic minority that's immediate grounds for them being a likable/creation-worthy character for you and if it's "just another white character" that it's cringe worthy.

[Brian M.]

THEY DEPOWERED EVERYONE DUE TO HOM!!!! They left a handful, a freaking handful. How is it Fing racist what they are doing?

[Cowlander]

No, spare me. And you know, the rolleyes emoticon is a big no-no around here.

:p

why is it a no no and shouldn't the "rasberry" emoticon also go on that list LOL

[Nyssane]

wow...I can't even believe you posted that. I don't think the message should be sent that "obese=good", but it's not good to send the message that girls who read comic books should go for unrealistic bodies like that of the X-Women...that's no more healthier than male fans striving for bodies like the X-Men have. A guy could literally kill himself trying to get Colossus' or Juggernaut's body (O_o) Likewise for a girl being "motivated" to get a "negative" figure waist like the one Psylocke has in the pic posted a few messages above. Plus...y'know, some hefty/obese people are comfortable in their own skin. There's certainly no harm in a person (or character) feeling comfortable with the weight they are at (particularly if it's not at dangerous levels).

Not to mention that it's bad enough guys are drooling over every X-Skank there is, I'm sure it couldn't possibly make overweight girls feel any better about themselves.

[Cowlander]

Even still--there are loads more ethnic characters than there are gay, diabetic, clinically depressed, Southern, Swedish, obese, and/or height-challenged characters...combined. Where's the representation for these groups? I could honestly empathize with you at first, but you really are lumping all white characters into one category and then making snap judgements like "there are so many lame and uninteresting white characters that aren't killed or depowered"--which isn't true, there've been quite a few who were interesting (and had fans) and still go limbo'ed or killed. You seem to be insinuating that if a character is an ethnic minority that's immediate grounds for them being a likable/creation-worthy character for you and if it's "just another white character" that it's cringe worthy.
youre making a distinction along ethnic lines in a racial debate arent you. Russian, german, Swed whatever are all ethnic groups. THeir not the same as a racial minority so it really isnt that far fetched to label them all as white.

Since I havent filled out one in a while, on census type forms do they make a distinction between Russian, German, Scottish? Or is it just along traditionally established race lines?

[Brian M.]

Fat Superheros...honestly...your kidding right? That'd be like having a 300lb Point Gaurd or a 450lb Wide Reciever...they have to be in shape, they have to be fit to do their job. Always training, always bettering their body in order to meet the challenges they might face. What good would a fat superhero do a team? They'd be slow, they'd be less mobile, less flexible...it may sound shallow but dam folks it makes sense.

[Nyssane]

Fat Superheros...honestly...your kidding right? That'd be like having a 300lb Point Gaurd or a 450lb Wide Reciever...they have to be in shape, they have to be fit to do their job. Always training, always bettering their body in order to meet the challenges they might face. What good would a fat superhero do a team? They'd be slow, they'd be less mobile, less flexible...it may sound shallow but dam folks it makes sense.

We're not talking obese, obviously. But having an average-sized woman would be nice for a change rather than big breasts and tiny waists. And not EVERY super hero uses physical force to confront their enemies with. Take a look at all those telepaths. And I mean, if you compare fat male characters to fat female characters, the men would definitely "outweigh" the women.

[Brian M.]

We're not talking obese, obviously. But having an average-sized woman would be nice for a change rather than big breasts and tiny waists. And not EVERY super hero uses physical force to confront their enemies with. Take a look at all those telepaths. And I mean, if you compare fat male characters to fat female characters, the men would definitely "outweigh" the women.

Ok but they still have to be in shape. Telepath or not not all threats can be solved by Telepathy. Also I would think that anyone that is risking their lives would want to be in great shape, just in case. I mean these people are training to save a people or a world. It just doesn't make sense that a person of average size would be a superhero. I mean they are called superhero's not b/c they are average but b/c they are super. They are above others in abilities, body type, sometimes intelligence. This isn't the medium to be preaching about having equal representation in the shape of men and women. They are SUPERheros. The Marvel Universe is a very diverse place, we have mutants and heros from all over the world and over all ethnic diversities. This whole discussion is crap in my opinion. I believe the "quotas" are fine just the way they are.

[Nyssane]

Ok but they still have to be in shape. Telepath or not not all threats can be solved by Telepathy. Also I would think that anyone that is risking their lives would want to be in great shape, just in case. I mean these people are training to save a people or a world. It just doesn't make sense that a person of average size would be a superhero. I mean they are called superhero's not b/c they are average but b/c they are super. They are above others in abilities, body type, sometimes intelligence. This isn't the medium to be preaching about having equal representation in the shape of men and women. They are SUPERheros. The Marvel Universe is a very diverse place, we have mutants and heros from all over the world and over all ethnic diversities. This whole discussion is crap in my opinion. I believe the "quotas" are fine just the way they are.

Well, even if the females did train, they'd have muscle, not just curvacious bodies that are the fantasy of every fanboy. I think you're misconstruing the term "super" with "sexual desire."

If all the female characters were "super," they would have huge muscles and thick abdomens, not jiggly boobies and junk in their trunk.

[Brian M.]

Well, even if the females did train, they'd have muscle, not just curvacious bodies that are the fantasy of every fanboy. I think you're misconstruing the term "super" with "sexual desire."

If all the female characters were "super," they would have huge muscles and thick abdomens, not jiggly boobies and junk in their trunk.

Not always. Women don't get bulky like men. You can have a woman, who's not taking anything like a supplement or anything and she won't look like the men w/ female heads they play on ESPN. The female body doesn't bulk like a man's does.

[Faded]

THEY DEPOWERED EVERYONE DUE TO HOM!!!! They left a handful, a freaking handful. How is it Fing racist what they are doing?

I don't know about anyone else, but don't think Marvel is being racist when depowering/killing. All I'm saying is it sucks doubly when the off a cool character who happens to be in a minority because they're so little of them (or so ittle that are interesting). Its kinda like an endangered species sorta thing. ;)

As for the non-slim thing, as Nyssy said I'm not talking obese. Sure the X-Men are superheroes but their mission statement isn't all about fighting crime, they're also a very political/public type of group. Regular looking people every now and then couldn't hurt. :] Especially when it comes to the students.

[Beast]

We're not talking obese, obviously. But having an average-sized woman would be nice for a change rather than big breasts and tiny waists. And not EVERY super hero uses physical force to confront their enemies with. Take a look at all those telepaths. And I mean, if you compare fat male characters to fat female characters, the men would definitely "outweigh" the women.
You mean, like Kitty Pryde. She's not exactly rail thin, and her cup size isn't massive. ;)

[Beast]

Ok but they still have to be in shape. Telepath or not not all threats can be solved by Telepathy. Also I would think that anyone that is risking their lives would want to be in great shape, just in case. I mean these people are training to save a people or a world. It just doesn't make sense that a person of average size would be a superhero. I mean they are called superhero's not b/c they are average but b/c they are super. They are above others in abilities, body type, sometimes intelligence. This isn't the medium to be preaching about having equal representation in the shape of men and women. They are SUPERheros. The Marvel Universe is a very diverse place, we have mutants and heros from all over the world and over all ethnic diversities. This whole discussion is crap in my opinion. I believe the "quotas" are fine just the way they are.
Not to mention, Xavier trained them all in physical fitness because he knew there would be times that they couldn't depend just on their powers. So even the telepaths have physical training for hand to hand combat. :)

[heystacy]

I think a solution may be servied by finding writers/artists with diverse ethinic backgrounds that can add to the characters.

Another option may be to explore mutant culture in itself. What do mutants celebrate about themselves? What do they find offensive in potrayals? Has Marvel ever explored this option?

In reality many awful ethnic sterotypes and ignorant statements/publications have been made abaginst many ethnic backgrounds. A reflection of this will make the stories richer.

Also, I have always thought of X-Men as an adventure group more than anything (which was a great thing to read). These guys lived in a mansion, they could be themselves amongst each other. For a long time their sercet was safe.

I wonder if sociecty sees the X-Men as decadent or dangerous? I think these aspects would highlight the prejudice the teams feel/felt.

[Beast]

I think a solution may be servied by finding writers/artists with diverse ethinic backgrounds that can add to the characters.
That isn't the answer. Just look at Reggie Hudlin's Black Panther. The character became a massive racial stereotype under a black writer, where as he'd been written respectfully by white writers for years. Not to mention the mangling of characters like Luke Cage under Reggie's run.
Another option may be to explore mutant culture in itself. What do mutants celebrate about themselves? What do they find offensive in potrayals? Has Marvel ever explored this option?
What mutant culture? Most of them are dead or depowered. There is no mutant culture. What with Genosha and Decimation, there's not enough of a mutant population to even call it a cultural. Besides, Morrison's idea of a mutant culture was one of the worst aspects of the run. It was played up illogically in my opinion. Now if it would have been portrayed something more like Gay Culture, it might have made a bit more sense.
In reality many awful ethnic sterotypes and ignorant statements/publications have been made abaginst many ethnic backgrounds. A reflection of this will make the stories richer.
There's a point when you no longer are entertaining and end up preaching if you explore these things too much. But there is one writer that touched on stuff like this, Chris Claremont. Both in his original run and in X-Treme, he dealt with racial prejudice against mutants, mostly thru the eyes of Kitty Pryde.
Also, I have always thought of X-Men as an adventure group more than anything (which was a great thing to read). These guys lived in a mansion, they could be themselves amongst each other. For a long time their sercet was safe.
Well, they have always been written as Super Heroes. If they were just an adventure group, their mission statement would be a lot different than what it was presented over the years. They wouldn't be facing evil mutants and dangers attacking humans, or need costumes and secret idenities. Morrison didn't seem to really get that point when he tried to make them into not Superheroes. Because you can't ignore what they have been since Uncanny X-Men #1 and for the last 40 years.
I wonder if sociecty sees the X-Men as decadent or dangerous? I think these aspects would highlight the prejudice the teams feel/felt.
Of course they do, it's been presented in story after story over the years. Of course, just like Homosexuals they have gained some acceptance. But there is still the aspects of humanity that sees them as dangerous.

[An Average Madri]

I definetly agree, X-Women proportions seem highly impossible. And am i the only one who would love to see a lot more Asian X-Women :D

[heystacy]

That isn't the answer. Just look at Reggie Hudlin's Black Panther. The character became a massive racial stereotype under a black writer, where as he'd been written respectfully by white writers for years. Not to mention the mangling of characters like Luke Cage under Reggie's run.

What mutant culture? Most of them are dead or depowered. There is no mutant culture. What with Genosha and Decimation, there's not enough of a mutant population to even call it a cultural. Besides, Morrison's idea of a mutant culture was one of the worst aspects of the run. It was played up illogically in my opinion. Unlike something like gay culture.

There's a point when you no longer are entertaining and end up preaching if you explore these things too much. But there is one writer that touched on stuff like this, Chris Claremont. Both in his original run and in X-Treme, he dealt with racial prejudice against mutants, mostly thru the eyes of Kitty Pryde.

Well, they have always been written as Super Heroes. If they were just an adventure group, their mission statement would be a lot different. They wouldn't be facing evil mutants and dangers attacking humans. Morrison didn't get that point when he tried to make them into not Superheroes. Because you can't ignore what they have been since Uncanny X-Men #1.

Of course they do, it's been presented in story after story over the years. Of course, just like Homosexuals they have gained some acceptance. But there is still the aspects of humanity that sees them as dangerous.

I didn't like Hudlin's Panther either. I don't know how much research or time he put into the stories. I would have tried Panther regardless of the ethnicity of the writer. I still will beg to differ about on hiring people of diverse ethinc background. It won't work in every case, but haven't we all read a comic book with a bad writer? Never give up on an idea uless it has been throuroughtly tried, IMO.

Mutant culture will exist in the MU. Who knows, it may grow again.

Tie will tell. The right writer (regardless of background) will put the right tough to the comics. I like the discussion this thread is generating. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. Perhaps I shoud be asking how can we see more diverse ethnic charcters.

[Bobster777]

I definetly agree, X-Women proportions seem highly impossible. And am i the only one who would love to see a lot more Asian X-Women :D
Ha ha, I would love to see more Asian anything. I don't think there has ever been a truly influential Asian comic book character in Marvel. I hope one pops up in the future.

[Beast]

I definetly agree, X-Women proportions seem highly impossible. And am i the only one who would love to see a lot more Asian X-Women :D
Yes, you are. :)

[tetragene]

youre making a distinction along ethnic lines in a racial debate arent you. Russian, german, Swed whatever are all ethnic groups. THeir not the same as a racial minority so it really isnt that far fetched to label them all as white.

Since I havent filled out one in a while, on census type forms do they make a distinction between Russian, German, Scottish? Or is it just along traditionally established race lines?

I guess you're right, I reckon I did mean "racial" and not "ethnic". Although honestly my distinction between the two words has become blurry because nowadays people are using them interchangably. lol, I've actually had someone tell me it is wrong to refer to what we've been discussing as "race discussion", they told me it's supposed to be labled "ethnicity discussions." So which is which--and are the people interchanging "ethnic" with "race/racial" just trying to be PC (and unknowingly referring to the wrong thing entirely)?

[Foley]

I would love to see more good characters in general, regardless or race or ethnicity. There is most likely always going to be a gap between white characters and racial/ethnic (who knows) minorities in the X-men. This could be due to the fact that the founding X-men were all Wasps. So, when you include Xavier, Cyclops, Polaris, Jean, Havok, Beast, Angel, Iceman, Banshee, Colossus, Nightcrawler(who apparently for this argument is a white german), Wolverine, and Magneto, you already have 13 white characters that are going to be prominent members of the x-franchise. I say we kill off Emma, Pulse, and Mystique and replace them with more diverse characters.

[Brian M.]

I would love to see more good characters in general, regardless or race or ethnicity. There is most likely always going to be a gap between white characters and racial/ethnic (who knows) minorities in the X-men. This could be due to the fact that the founding X-men were all Wasps. So, when you include Xavier, Cyclops, Polaris, Jean, Havok, Beast, Angel, Iceman, Banshee, Colossus, Nightcrawler(who apparently for this argument is a white german), Wolverine, and Magneto, you already have 13 white characters that are going to be prominent members of the x-franchise. I say we kill off Emma, Pulse, and Mystique and replace them with more diverse characters.

I've got a few ideas, maybe someone from an African Village who grew up in a poor society. Someone from Japan who has a slight hitch on his shoulder. We need to see a Native America go on an important mission, I'd like to see that. Also maybe another African American woman in like a police detective agency that has had a rich up bringing. OOOOOH Also a Latino character in a position of power with a lot of wealth....yea that would be good too.

[Sentinel K]

I think the ethnic diversity is fine.

But I'm a racist, so what do i know.....?

[Zombienorthstar]

What mutant culture? Most of them are dead or depowered. There is no mutant culture. What with Genosha and Decimation, there's not enough of a mutant population to even call it a cultural. Besides, Morrison's idea of a mutant culture was one of the worst aspects of the run. It was played up illogically in my opinion. Now if it would have been portrayed something more like Gay Culture, it might have made a bit more sense.

.

In my opinion the culture aspect of Morrison and Caseys run did reflect minority culture, such as gay culture. The mutants had their own area of the city (Mutant Town) comparable to Soho in england and San Francisco in America for gay people...or comparable to the ghettos for ethnic minorities.

They had their own music style (bands like 'Juggernaut' and 'Sentinal Bait') something which once again is often found in minortiy groups, notably the dance music on the gay scene or development of rap/hip hop.

They had their own fashion styles (X-Factory, Jumbo Carnation) something that once again is in minority culture...though sometimes does leak out into mainstream culture when it gets adopted.

They had their own bars (there was a whole dicussion between Iceman and Chamber whilst they were in the bar 'The Gene Pool' where Iceman told Jono to 'enjoy it while we're fringe')

There was even mutant pornography!

In what way did you find it didnt represent minority culture, Beast?

[Foley]

In my opinion the culture aspect of Morrison and Caseys run did reflect minority culture, such as gay culture. The mutants had their own area of the city (Mutant Town) comparable to Soho in england and San Francisco in America for gay people...or comparable to the ghettos for ethnic minorities.

They had their own music style (bands like 'Juggernaut' and 'Sentinal Bait') something which once again is often found in minortiy groups, notably the dance music on the gay scene or development of rap/hip hop.

They had their own fashion styles (X-Factory, Jumbo Carnation) something that once again is in minority culture...though sometimes does leak out into mainstream culture when it gets adopted.

They had their own bars (there was a whole dicussion between Iceman and Chamber whilst they were in the bar 'The Gene Pool' where Iceman told Jono to 'enjoy it while we're fringe')

There was even mutant pornography!

In what way did you find it didnt represent minority culture, Beast?

He doesn't seem to be saying that there wasn't a mutant culture. He's saying there isn't anymore. When a couple of hundred people do something, its not a culture. Its more of a cult

[Zombienorthstar]

He doesn't seem to be saying that there wasn't a mutant culture. He's saying there isn't anymore. When a couple of hundred people do something, its not a culture. Its more of a cult

he was actually refferring to how the 'culture aspect' was handled during morrisons run...read his post man.

[D-LO]

That isn't the answer. Just look at Reggie Hudlin's Black Panther. The character became a massive racial stereotype under a black writer, where as he'd been written respectfully by white writers for years. Not to mention the mangling of characters like Luke Cage under Reggie's run.

I feel Reggie Hudlin has done a fine job with Black Panther and will continued to do so!!!

[Beast]

I feel Reggie Hudlin has done a fine job with Black Panther and will continued to do so!!!
So, you like stereotypical black characters?

[Brian M.]

I think the ethnic diversity is fine.

But I'm a racist, so what do i know.....?

Are you coming to the meeting today? I've got our hoods.

[D-LO]

So, you like stereotypical black characters?No I don't like stereotypical black characters !!!! I like black characters with depth and meaning and detail other than "Sweet Chrismas!!" !!! Hudlin has a lot to offer with this character.

[Sentinel K]

Are you coming to the meeting today? I've got our hoods.

Already there dude.

Waiting on you.

Bring Gasoline.

[Callisto]

It only proves you're lumping everyone who's white into one category, while ignoring their cultural heritage.

but thats not what were debating, were debating the lack of ETHNIC mutants that are in the marvel universe being made powerless when there isn't many of them. not about what cultures or religions each x-man has.


The X-Men at the moment are fairly diverse, with only the characters who were mostly introduced in the original run of the X-Men being the majority of the WASP characters. There's certainly just as many, if not more characters from other countries and cultures than there are American characters.


no there is not, and that's the point of the thread. there are numerous ethnicities that don't seem to have mutants in the marvel universe and the few ethnicities that do have mutants had there characters killed or made powerless. why you feel the need to show a list of mutants that are mostly WHITE or if ethnic have been either killed off or made powerless is beyond me.


And since the X-Mansion is based in America, it would make sense that a large number of it's students, staff, and teachers were American as well. Not everyone in the world is cut out to be an X-Man. :p


No it does not because they apparently go around collecting mutants from all over and you would think there staff would reflect that. or are only american mutants good enough to be teachers or x-men?

[Sentinel K]

Who wants to read about ethnic X-men anyway?

[Callisto]

Even still--there are loads more ethnic characters than there are gay, diabetic, clinically depressed, Southern, Swedish, obese, and/or height-challenged characters...combined. Where's the representation for these groups? .

If that bothers you then make a thread about it.This thread is about the few ethnic mutants left being killed or made powerless why is it so hard to understand that?


"there are so many lame and uninteresting white characters that aren't killed or depowered"--which isn't true, there've been quite a few who were interesting (and had fans) and still go limbo'ed or killed..


I Never said that.


You seem to be insinuating that if a character is an ethnic minority that's immediate grounds for them being a likable/creation-worthy character for you and if it's "just another white character" that it's cringe worthy.


then you clearly aren't reading my posts which from your above statement does not surprise me. I never once said that if a character is ethnic they should be likeable and all white characters should be despised. Considering that half the x-men cast is white if i despised them all then why on earth would i continuilly be buying issues and posting on fan sites about my love for them?

[Beast]

but thats not what were debating, were debating the lack of ETHNIC mutants that are in the marvel universe being made powerless when there isn't many of them. not about what cultures or religions each x-man has.
It's just as valid, even if you want to ignore that. Race, culture, and religion all have bearing in making a diverse group of X-Men characters. Nightcrawler's Austrian/German, Colossus is Russian, Shadowcat's Jewish, Storm's African, Bishop's an Aborigine, Wolfsbane is Scottish, Siryn is Irish, Sage is Greek/Welsh. Dust is from Afghanistan. If you're just going to lump anyone who has white skin into being white, that's pretty unfair and ignoring their cultural distinctiveness. Which is as bad, if not worse, than what you're claiming Marvel is doing.
no there is not, and that's the point of the thread. there are numerous ethnicities that don't seem to have mutants in the marvel universe and the few ethnicities that do have mutants had there characters killed or made powerless. why you feel the need to show a list of mutants that are mostly WHITE or if ethnic have been either killed off or made powerless is beyond me.
Yes there is, you just are playing blind to the facts and lumping everyone who's from another country into being 'White'. Which is a dis-service to their characters if you consider them that way. There are plenty of represenitives of other cultures, racial heritage, and religions represented by the X-Men. The only thing that seems to be beyond you, is the understanding that cultural and religious heritage is just as valid a minority as racial heritage. Just because you're stuck on skin tone, doesn't mean you're observations are correct. In fact, they're so far off base it's almost laughable. Try looking at the big picture instead of one portion.
No it does not because they apparently go around collecting mutants from all over and you would think there staff would reflect that. or are only american mutants good enough to be teachers or x-men?
No they don't. Just because Xavier recruited a bunch of people from different countries for his 'All-New All-Different' team, doesn't mean they go around collecting mutants from all over. It's the X-Men, not the United Nations. They don't force people to join, and have you considered that not everyone wants to move away from all they know and go to America. In fact, Claremont addressed that with Storm in Uncanny X-Men Annual #1. And you continue to ignore that a lot of countries like Russia, Japan, and China, as well as others had programs in place to prevent the births of mutants. And a number of mutants who were alive had moved to Genosha and were destroyed by Cassie Nova's sentinels. And there was also X-Corps, if you don't recall.

[tetragene]

If that bothers you then make a thread about it.This thread is about the few ethnic mutants left being killed or made powerless why is it so hard to understand that?

it doesn't bother me at all. My point being that there are a LOT of different groups that are not "represented" in comic books. It extends much further than race alone. I don't think it's a "conspiracy". But going in with your "X-Men represent diversity" arguement--there are A LOT more racial minority mutants than there are gay mutants (which could encorporate ANY race). You'd be hardpressed to not find the similiarties over the years between the struggles of mutants and gays ("hiding" it, Legacy Virus, the "cure", being ostracized, religious conflicts over it, etc). Yet gay mutants are extremely minute though.

then you clearly aren't reading my posts which from your above statement does not surprise me. I never once said that if a character is ethnic they should be likeable and all white characters should be despised. Considering that half the x-men cast is white if i despised them all then why on earth would i continuilly be buying issues and posting on fan sites about my love for them?

Notice I said you seem to "insinuate", not that you flat out stated anything. And I find it funny that you are constantly telling other people they aren't reading your posts right when you have continuously done that with other posters. I think the way you've been posting about how racial minority characters are seemingly singled out for depowerment and death or limbo status...all the while completely ignoring the long list of "white" characters its happened to--justifies some of the comments that have been geared toward your argument...or lack thereof.

It's not surprising that for a number of years racial minority characters have been extremely minute. If you have a creator who is not familiar with other races (or anything else they are not familiar with) they will generally not write them. Look at tv shows or book written by racial minority writers/creators--they're usually abundant with the said writer's race, and very rarely any other race. I think this trend is definitely not as strong as it used to be--look at Young Avengers, white gay writer--but the team has a straight black male leader. I think having racial minorities as writers could possibly help, as they'd perhaps be more inclined to include heroes that are racial minorities without the fear or "it may come off stereotypical" or "how would I write a character like that?". But that's no guarantee of "helping matters"--Hudlin's "Black Panther" comes off very stereotypical to me.

[Callisto]

It's just as valid, even if you want to ignore that. Race, culture, and religion all have bearing in making a diverse group of X-Men characters. Nightcrawler's Austrian/German, Colossus is Russian, Shadowcat's Jewish, Storm's African, Bishop's an Aborigine, Wolfsbane is Scottish, Siryn is Irish, Sage is Greek/Welsh. Dust is from Afghanistan. If you're just going to lump anyone who has white skin into being white, that's pretty unfair and ignoring their cultural distinctiveness. Which is as bad, if not worse, than what you're claiming Marvel is doing..


yes some of the x-men have distinct cultures but as you so eloquently said "so what". When it comes down to it most of the x-men are WHITE plain and simple. look at the astonishing team, wow kitty is jewish and colossaus is from russia my what a racially diverse team that is.:rolleyes: How about the excalibur team hmmmm looks white to me opps but wait sage is greek!:rolleyes: and the list goes on. The only team that acctually seemed to show that mutancy happened worldwide was the x-treme x-men team which had various ethnic minorities.Other then the x-men teams look pretty much white and that at all isn't a good thing, its not that they give these characters different cultures but maybe its time they had more ethnicly diverse mutants aswell on these teams.



Yes there is, you just are playing blind to the facts and lumping everyone who's from another country into being 'White'....

No its just your list was pointless. the whole point of this thread is debating about wheter marvel should have spared the ethnicly diverse mutants from being killed or made powerless because there are so few of them and then you come up with a list of mutants some that are ethnic that have been killed or made powerless and some from various cultures who are pretty much still white from a visual standpoint.


Which is a dis-service to their characters if you consider them that way. There are plenty of represenitives of other cultures, racial heritage, and religions represented by the X-Men.....


but are we debating about these characters cultures or religions? no, we are debating about the few visually ethnic characters that are left who are being killed off or made powerless and wheter they should be spared. SIMPLE, all you are doing is making this topic more convulted.

The only thing that seems to be beyond you, is the understanding that cultural and religious heritage is just as valid a minority as racial heritage....


not from a visual standpoint. Thats where this whole thing is coming from, as i've said before visually the cast of x-men seems to be white. each team seems to be full of white people and occasionally have one minoirity which makes no sense because if mutants are growing around the world and charles was collecting them then shouldn't the x-teams represent this?



Just because you're stuck on skin tone, doesn't mean you're observations are correct. In fact, they're so far off base it's almost laughable...


i'm not stuck on skin tone i'm simply going along with the topic of this thread, the fact that you seem unable to do that is whats truly laughable.



countries for his 'All-New All-Different' team, doesn't mean they go around collecting mutants from all over. And you continue to ignore that a lot of countries like Russia, Japan, and China, as well as others had programs in place to prevent the births of mutants. And a number of mutants who were alive had moved to Genosha and were destroyed by Cassie Nova's sentinels.


it's been stated numerous times that charles went around collecting new mutants being born wherever he could its even shown in pretty much every damn animated series of x-men. yes its true many countries had programs in place to prevent the births of mutants but there are plenty of other countries where that was shown not to be the case. and considering there are shown to be mutants around that came from those countries that had those things in place the programs obviously weren't working very well. yes i am aware of the whole genosha event which means nothing because there were still plenty of visually ethnic mutants that weren't shown to be around for that event and could easily have been spared, same with HOM.

[Sentinel K]

Callisto are you in an ethnic minority?

Cos you come across as quite bitter about caucasians.

[Beast]

Callisto are you in an ethnic minority?

Cos you come across as quite bitter about caucasians.
That's what I'm thinking as well.

[Callisto]

it doesn't bother me at all. My point being that there are a LOT of different groups that are not "represented" in comic books. It extends much farther than race alone. .


.........your point being? there are numerous issues of x-men that need to be disscussed but i'm choosing this one, i don't see why you feel the need to bring up another issue.


Notice I said you seem to "insinuate", not that you flat out stated anything. And I find it funny that you are constantly telling other people they aren't reading your posts right when you have continuously done that with other posters..

no i haven't.

I think the way you've been posting about how racial minority characters are seemingly singled out for depowerment and death or limbo status.....

see once again i never said that, if you can't even get your facts straight then why bother replying. i never said they were singled out i said that they should be spared because there is so few of them.


all the while completely ignoring the long list of "white" characters its happened to--justifies some of the comments that have been geared toward your argument...or lack thereof......

there are plenty of white characters so the loss of some of them isn't so dramatic. if anyones argument is lacking its yours, the only thing you seem capable of doing in this debate is twisting/creating statements inorder to get a point accross.

[Callisto]

Callisto are you in an ethnic minority?

Cos you come across as quite bitter about caucasians.

not really i'm a mixture of various races caucasian is one of them. No i'm not bitter towards caucasians.

[Beast]

.........your point being? there are numerous issues of x-men that need to be disscussed but i'm choosing this one, i don't see why you feel the need to bring up another issue.
Because it's a discussion thread, and people are trying to show you that what you're claiming and beating a dead horse about... isn't nearly as bad as you continue to claim it has been. Of course, you only see skin tone as the basis of your argument, so that's the major problem.
no i haven't.
Yes, you have.
see once again i never said that, if you can't even get your facts straight then why bother replying. i never said they were singled out i said that they should be spared because there is so few of them.
You've said as much in your posts, while ignoring the logical counter-arguements directed at you. It's the equivelent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'La-La-La' when someone brings up somthing that shakes your argument. It would be silly if all of the minority characters were spared, simply becuase they were minorities. It would not make sense.
there are plenty of white characters so the loss of some of them isn't so dramatic. if anyones argument is lacking its yours, the only thing you seem capable of doing in this debate is twisting/creating statements inorder to get a point accross.
So just because they're white and there are quite a few of them, getting depowered or killed doesn't matter as much? Finally... you cut thru the BS and just state what you're trying to say, that killing white characters doesn't mean anything. And you ignore that a number of so-called 'White' characters were depowered and/or killed. Just look at the students who have been killed in New X-Men.

[Beast]

not really i'm a mixture of various races caucasian is one of them. No i'm not bitter towards caucasians.
You could have fooled me. ;)

[tetragene]

.........your point being? there are numerous issues of x-men that need to be disscussed but i'm choosing this one, i don't see why you feel the need to bring up another issue.

I suppose you wouldn't.


there are plenty of white characters so the loss of some of them isn't so dramatic. if anyones argument is lacking its yours, the only thing you seem capable of doing in this debate is twisting/creating statements inorder to get a point accross.

the only reason this situation is "dramatic" is because you're making it so. You can't see it just as "a lot of white characters were depowered and some racial minorites were depowered." Yes the majority is white, but with such a huge depower "wave" the majority of the depowered mutants were also white, no? And I don't think I'm trying to "twist" anything. In your arguments you are constantly stating how there are so many white mutants and how the few racial minorities that were present have now been depowered, and then you state that because they are minorities it is wrong for them to be depowered. Regardless of how you think you are wording your posts, you are apparently coming off like you believe a wrong has been commited on the grounds of race.

[Faded]

I think the thing is simple: Decimation sucked. ;)

[Sentinel K]

Skin colour seems to be a big issue for you Callisto.

Do you not want to read about caucasians?

Sounds racist to me.

[Nyssane]

I think they should just stop killing off/depowering mass characters as it is. There's still room to make more black/asian/hispanic/whatever mutants, so really, complaining about it now is redundant. They were obviously just trying to save the most "popular" mutants from decimation, and apparently the majority of popular mutants are white.

Besides, characters like Tempo (black), Scrambler (asian), Sabra (israeli), and Shinobi Shaw (mixed asian/white) all retain their powers. Some of them are blank slates to work with.

[Callisto]

Because it's a discussion thread, and people are trying to show you that what you're claiming and beating a dead horse about... isn't nearly as bad as you continue to claim it has been. Of course, you only see skin tone as the basis of your argument, so that's the major problem..


no, your simply going off topic because you don't have any points.

Yes, you have...

No i haven't. Besides your one to talk you can't even stick to the topic at hand.

You've said as much in your posts, while ignoring the logical counter-arguements directed at you. It's the equivelent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'La-La-La' when someone brings up somthing that shakes your argument. It would be silly if all of the minority characters were spared, simply becuase they were minorities. It would not make sense..


make no sense? the entire HOM of powerlessness fiasco barely made any sense as it is. Marvel isn't really know for logical decisions. besides I think sparing them would make alot more sense from a marketable standpoint, people naturally go towards things they relate to if they see a character of seemingly there same nationality on a cover of an issue it may compell them to pick up the issue and check it out.

So just because they're white and there are quite a few of them, getting depowered or killed doesn't matter as much?

of course it matters, but if its a useless character such as....carter being killed/offed compared to a visually ethnic character being offed then not as much.


Finally... you cut thru the BS and just state what you're trying to say, that killing white characters doesn't mean anything..


lol your are beyond hilarious.


And you ignore that a number of so-called 'White' characters were depowered and/or killed. Just look at the students who have been killed in New X-Men.

I didn't ignore it i just don't see how its relevant. I never said ethnic characters are singled out for extermination i just said that some of the ethnic mutants should have been spared from the HOM event because there isn't many of them.

[Beast]

Skin colour seems to be a big issue for you Callisto.

Do you not want to read about caucasians?

Sounds racist to me.
Agreed. Not worth the time debating with someone like that.

[Beast]

I think the thing is simple: Decimation sucked. ;)
I liked most of the stories that came out of it though. :)

[Beast]

I think they should just stop killing off/depowering mass characters as it is.
The most logical post yet. I agree, I'm sick of death in comics. Alpha Flight, Banshee, all those New X-Men kids.

[Sentinel K]

I think the thing is simple: Decimation sucked. ;)

It did get rid of a lot of those 'ethnics' though.

I hated those guys.

[Beast]

It did get rid of a lot of those 'ethnics' though.

I hated those guys.
There's still too many left though. Just look at the 198, all those scary non-white people. :D

[Callisto]

I suppose you wouldn't..



yes i wouldn't.:confused:



the only reason this situation is "dramatic" is because you're making it so. You can't see it just as "a lot of white characters were depowered and some racial minorites were depowered." Yes the majority is white, but with such a huge depower "wave" the majority of the depowered mutants were also white, no?.

so what? what is your point? i'm not refuting that alot of white mutants were depowered i'm talking about wheter so many of the visually ethnic ones should have been depowered/killed. you don't consider it a big deal but i do.



And I don't think I'm trying to "twist" anything. ?.

yes because numerous times you've tried to "qoute me" and they have all been statements i've never said then you begin to back peddle and be like " oh well i just meant thats how it seemed"



In your arguments you are constantly stating how there are so many white mutants and how the few racial minorities that were present have now been depowered, and then you state that because they are minorities it is wrong for them to be depowered. Regardless of how you think you are wording your posts, you are apparently coming off like you believe a wrong has been commited on the grounds of race.


for once you acctually got some of my statements except for the last part. i don't think a real wrong has been commited on the grounds of race i just think they should work on making x-teams more visually ethnic and by doing that it would probably involve them easing up on the depowering/killing of them.

[Callisto]

Skin colour seems to be a big issue for you Callisto.

Do you not want to read about caucasians?

Sounds racist to me.


why would you think that? because i feel like marvel should have a more visually ethnic cast as opposed to it being all white? beyond ridiculous.

[Callisto]

I think the thing is simple: Decimation sucked. ;)


not really, even i think there was begining to be wayyyy to many mutants.

[Beast]

why would you think that? because i feel like marvel should have a more visually ethnic cast as opposed to it being all white? beyond ridiculous.
Yeah, but you're ignoring the fact that mutants are a minority themselves. Writers also use characters like Beast and Nightcrawler to represent visually 'ethnic' characters who can't hide they're mutants from the world. They can't blend into the 'White Population' or in this case the 'Non-Mutant' population because of the color of their skin. The writers are using it as an analogy for exactly what you're talking about. And beyond them, there are still a very diverse cast. Unless of course, you're lumping anyone with light skin as being White.

[Sentinel K]

why would you think that? because i feel like marvel should have a more visually ethnic cast as opposed to it being all white? beyond ridiculous.

Because all you care about is skin colour.

You can't seem to see past that.

Enjoy the characters for who they ARE. Not how they LOOK.

YOU are making skin colour into an ISSUE where an issue doesn't exist.

If you are bothered so much by the colour of people's skins and, what you consider to be, the over representation of white people, I'd imagine you have quite big race issues in the real world that YOU have to deal with.

I'm just happy reading about GOOD CHARACTERS. I couldn't care less about skin colour, it's not an issue for me. They can all be black for all I care.

Or BLUE, or Rainbow coloured. I don't care.

There is so much diversity in the MU and the Mutant corner of it, I really don't see why you are so upset.

There are always going to be MORE caucasian characters in the X-Books, as the USA is predominantly caucasian. Thats just logic.

[Jake V]

why would you think that? because i feel like marvel should have a more visually ethnic cast as opposed to it being all white? beyond ridiculous.
They ALL are visually ethnic. Can't you tell they're mutants?

[Nyssane]

The Serpent Society is primarily black, plus an Egyptian for fair game. So, not every Marvel super-team is comprised of all-whites. I'd say for you to go read issues with them, but I'm afraid you'd like them too much and I'd have to be associated with...

Okay, too mean. :)

[tetragene]

yes because numerous times you've tried to "qoute me" and they have all been statements i've never said then you begin to back peddle and be like " oh well i just meant thats how it seemed"

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. I've never back peddled and tried to justify my responses with "oh uh well, I mean that uh that's just how it seemed." I believe I've posted, countless times, that you INSINUATE certain things. Saying that I believe you are insinuating something is completely different than directly quoting and twisting your words.

[Brian M.]

I think the thing is simple: Decimation sucked. ;)


She's so right...in that sexy way. We should just kill everyone, that way there would be no minorities or majorities. Endind the World is the only way to sovle this.

[Foley]

She's so right...in that sexy way. We should just kill everyone, that way there would be no minorities or majorities. Endind the World is the only way to sovle this.

We must have Onslut end the world. To keep it diverse however, it will be a merging of Storm, Jubilee, Psylocke, Cecilia Reyes, Emma, and Anne Coultier

[Cowlander]

So, you like stereotypical black characters?
what was so bad about RH's Cage?

I've heard ALOT of compliants on the early Panther arcs, but most comments since he started the "tour" seem to be that its a fun book. I dont read it since the panther bores me.

[Beast]

what was so bad about RH's Cage?

I've heard ALOT of compliants on the early Panther arcs, but most comments since he started the "tour" seem to be that its a fun book. I dont read it since the panther bores me.
He commented about 'ass f**king' someone on a couch. :p

[Cowlander]

He commented about 'ass f**king' someone on a couch. :p
lol but he actually did, so wheres the mischaracterization LOL

[Foley]

Wow...maybe i should pick up the black panther :p

[Jake V]

lol but he actually did, so wheres the mischaracterization LOL
It wasn't on a couch.

[Cowlander]

It wasn't on a couch.
touche, so he used the candlestick in bakery is what youre saying?

[Callisto]

Yeah, but you're ignoring the fact that mutants are a minority themselves..

obviously.


Writers also use characters like Beast and Nightcrawler to represent visually 'ethnic' characters who can't hide they're mutants from the world...

so what? theres still a lack of visually ethnic characters in x-teams even with the visual mutant on the team.

They can't blend into the 'White Population' or in this case the 'Non-Mutant' population because of the color of their skin. The writers are using it as an analogy for exactly what you're talking about....

now your just making up stuff, i have never seen a writer use that whole analogy in any storyline.

And beyond them, there are still a very diverse cast. Unless of course, you're lumping anyone with light skin as being White.

i'm lumping anyone with white skin as being white, can't you atleast get that straight?

[Callisto]

Because all you care about is skin colour..

you don't know me at all to say that all i care about is skin colour.

You can't seem to see past that...

of course i can you don't know me at all to make such an assumption.

Enjoy the characters for who they ARE. Not how they LOOK....


i do, if i had a problem with every white character in x-men i wouldn't be reading the damn comic since there are millions of them which i enjoy.

YOU are making skin colour into an ISSUE where an issue doesn't exist.....


you may not think its an issue but i and others do.

If you are bothered so much by the colour of people's skins and, what you consider to be, the over representation of white people, I'd imagine you have quite big race issues in the real world that YOU have to deal with......


my,i wonder,do you make such laughably bad assumptions on people you encounter in the real world or this like some kind of internet joke?


I'm just happy reading about GOOD CHARACTERS. I couldn't care less about skin colour, it's not an issue for me. They can all be black for all I care.......Or BLUE, or Rainbow coloured. I don't care.

that's nice, but if debate on this subject bothers you so much which is clearly does then why are you even posting in this thread?


There is so much diversity in the MU and the Mutant corner of it, I really don't see why you are so upset.

there isn't, thats what i'm discussing.

There are always going to be MORE caucasian characters in the X-Books, as the USA is predominantly caucasian. Thats just logic.

This point has been made over and over again clearly each response to it has flung over your head.I will try again. i'm not talking about backround characters being caucasian thats to be expected in the usa. i'm talking about the lack of visual ethnicity in the x-men teams which makes little sense since xavier apparently has gone around collecting mutants from all over for his teams but for some reason they all seem to be predominetly white.Besides with millions of teleporters and people who can run as fast as a speeding bullet locating to the usa isn't as hard as it use to be so more ethnic backround characters wouldn't be to unbelievable.

[Callisto]

The Serpent Society is primarily black, plus an Egyptian for fair game. So, not every Marvel super-team is comprised of all-whites.:)

what the hell are you talking about. i didn't say every marvel superhero team is comprised of white people.

I'd say for you to go read issues with them, but I'm afraid you'd like them too much and I'd have to be associated with...
Okay, too mean. :)


I'm sorry, but that's wrong. I've never back peddled and tried to justify my responses with "oh uh well, I mean that uh that's just how it seemed." I believe I've posted, countless times, that you INSINUATE certain things. Saying that I believe you are insinuating something is completely different than directly quoting and twisting your words.

no you haven't all you've done is pretty much back peddle.


:confused:

[Nyssane]

what the hell are you talking about. i didn't say every marvel superhero team is comprised of white people.

No, you said Marvel has a lack of ethnic-representation. Well, the Serpent Society is filled with ethnicity. And even has an overweight chick to boot.

[Cowlander]

No, you said Marvel has a lack of ethnic-representation. Well, the Serpent Society is filled with ethnicity. And even has an overweight chick to boot.
youre not serious right?

[tetragene]

no you haven't all you've done is pretty much back peddle.


The only time I posted and referred to you as "stating" something instead of "insinuating" was with this:

...<snipped>...you really are lumping all white characters into one category and then making snap judgements like "there are so many lame and uninteresting white characters that aren't killed or depowered"

You have been lumping all the white characters into one category, so I see no reason to retract that. But for the statement following it, I apolgize. You never posted anything of this such, so I apologize and retract the statement. However, every other time I made sure to respond to your posts with "insinuate". I don't recall claiming/assuming you posted something and then "back peddle" to justify my responses to you:

You seem to be insinuating that if a character is an ethnic minority that's immediate grounds for them being a likable/creation-worthy character for you and if it's "just another white character" that it's cringe worthy.

Notice I said you seem to "insinuate", not that you flat out stated anything.

I still fail to see where I have back peddled, and since aside from that one instance, I have responded to the insinuations you make in your posts I wouldn't have ANY reason to "back peddle"

If you need me to post the definition of "insinuate" for you, I'll gladly oblige. You seem to be confusing "insinuating" with "stating"

[Gargus]

What does everyone else think?

Me personally I think your a idiot for being outraged.

1) Its a comic book and not real life. As soon as you start injecting reality into something as fictional as a comic book then you need to stop reading because your taking it way to seriously. I mean honestly folks, its a (as the batman would put it) a god damn comic book and nothing else.

2) Mutants are the minority and what stan lee originally intended was them to represent miniorities. I mean look at them, they are hated by humans, herded up like cattle and anti mutant slogans allover the streets now, even more so than before. But I guess they have to actually be asian or something right? Green dude with 6 arms and 4 eyeballs isnt a minority because he doesnt fit your description right? I mean the lack of human features just makes him white or what? I would think guy on fire would be the ultimate minority, more black mutants around than man made of fire mutants with glowing skeleton inside said fire.


Besides if you hate it so much stop reading comics and stop visiting comic related forums and go join a protest rally and let the rest of us enjoy our comics.

My best friend is black and we had this discussion before and he personally doesnt like most black charcters in comics because they "act black" and that annoys him almost as much as it does me. He doesnt even like luke cage who is fairly normal cause he tries to be the hard ass black dude who wont wear a uniform cause he is to cool and wears his little beannie hat all the time. Until someone else brought this up not long ago neither of us had really noticed and we didnt care, they are just drawings afterall and the only people (regardless of race) who seem to care are people with nothing better to do. You need a life or a job thats more than serving lattes at starbucks 18 hours a week if this is what your doing with your time.

This is about as stupid as someone having a argument about star wars being racist against wookies because they arent shown as much as humans or that lucas is a racist cause all the stormtroopers wear white armor.

Im done in this thread though because I know it will only get worse in here. Ive said what I needed.

[Nyssane]

youre not serious right?

o.o;;;; huh?

[Haunt]

2) Mutants are the minority and what stan lee originally intended was them to represent miniorities.


so why did he have them all look reasonably normal? the original X-Men could have hung out with Archie and Jughead w/o either ever suspecting that they were a different race. meanwhile, the one black person in the Archies universe wouldn't be able to hide his color. i find it somewhat insulting that they swapped mutancy for minority status. it's like they don't really want to deal with the reality of someone being black or brown, so they just forced some angst on a bunch of white characters. really, just how many times (on this board) have people wondered aloud why people like the Fantastic Four but hate mutants? it's because you can't tell them apart.

[KOSLOX]

There are plenty of non-mutant minority heroes running around right now that are being used way more effectively than in any X-men I can remember. The whole point of X-Men is Mutant versus Human, which I believe are of different subspecies, granted I'm not the biggest X-Fan because I find thier stories typically confusing and extremely convoluted. Has ethnicity (within) the Homo Sapiens Superior ever played a big role for any of the X-men or are the minorities strictly token?

[Kaos]

yea I ain feelin the lack of ethnic minorities in all superhero comics--what aren't black people good enough to save your asses (jokes).
But yea basically all the cool brehs get murked and there's only bishop left...if he got killed I'd have to protest

[Haunt]

There are plenty of non-mutant minority heroes running around right now that are being used way more effectively than in any X-men I can remember. The whole point of X-Men is Mutant versus Human, which I believe are of different subspecies, granted I'm not the biggest X-Fan because I find thier stories typically confusing and extremely convoluted. Has ethnicity (within) the Homo Sapiens Superior ever played a big role for any of the X-men or are the minorities strictly token?


there are two factions of mutants; those who can pass as normal and the obviously 'disfigured' ones. this came up during HoM.

[Foley]

so why did he have them all look reasonably normal? the original X-Men could have hung out with Archie and Jughead w/o either ever suspecting that they were a different race. meanwhile, the one black person in the Archies universe wouldn't be able to hide his color. i find it somewhat insulting that they swapped mutancy for minority status. it's like they don't really want to deal with the reality of someone being black or brown, so they just forced some angst on a bunch of white characters. really, just how many times (on this board) have people wondered aloud why people like the Fantastic Four but hate mutants? it's because you can't tell them apart.

You can't be serious, right? Sure, the original X-men were all white, but pretty much every comic book character at the time was all white. The X-men then became one of the most diverse teams with the launch of GSXM 1. The team had an Asian, an African, a blue German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian, and a Native American. This is a team that is both racially and culturally diverse.

My second problem is that people seem to be unable to see the parallels between mutants and racisim. Beast and Nightcrawler cannot go into public without being shunned or feared. People tend to avoid them based only on their physical appearance, regardless of the heroes that they are. The way they look causes people to pass judgement on them without even knowing them. If that is not a metaphor for racism, then I do not know what is.

Finally, threads like this demonstrate how far everyone has to go before we've really dealt with our hatreds and ignorance. Racism won't really be dealt with until we look at a person and see just a man or a woman, not a black man or a white woman. We're all just people, and maybe one day we'll actually realize it.

[Haunt]

You can't be serious, right? Sure, the original X-men were all white, but pretty much every comic book character at the time was all white.


that makes it better? if anything, that supports what i was saying. they didn't want to deal with race so they created mutancy instead.

The X-men then became one of the most diverse teams with the launch of GSXM 1. The team had an Asian, an African, a blue German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian, and a Native American. This is a team that is both racially and culturally diverse.


lol. culturally diverse because one says 'mein gott,' one says 'comrade,' one says 'saints preserve us,' and the other wears feathers? that's diverse in the way that the Village People were diverse. and enlighten me. who was the first african american X-Man? i'm not talking about the blue eyed goddess with absolutely no knowledge of black america. how about the first chinese american X-Man?

My second problem is that people seem to be unable to see the parallels between mutants and racisim. Beast and Nightcrawler cannot go into public without being shunned or feared.


both have gotten laid more than your average-looking guy. Beast was a celebrity and an author. Nightcrawler worked hand in hand with the british authorities.

[Foley]

that makes it better? if anything, that supports what i was saying. they didn't want to deal with race so they created mutancy instead.




lol. culturally diverse because one says 'mein gott,' one says 'comrade,' one says 'saints preserve us,' and the other wears feathers? that's diverse in the way that the Village People were diverse. and enlighten me. who was the first african american X-Man? i'm not talking about the blue eyed goddess with absolutely no knowledge of black america. how about the first chinese american X-Man?




both have gotten laid more than your average-looking guy. Beast was a celebrity and an author. Nightcrawler worked hand in hand with the british authorities.

So cultural diversity only counts if its an American character? And I was under the strange impression that X-men was created as a comic first, and then later became identified with by oppressed minorities. I'm saying that X-men diversified quicker than any other comic book written at the time.

I'm sorry Stan Lee didn't have the foresight to write the Haunt's Civilly and Politically Correct Version of the X-men. If you're looking to your comics for your social conscience, then you're having issues anyway.

So, by your standards, its cool if you're treated like shit so long as you get laid a little bit more often. Jay-Z gets more ass than I ever will, so its alright if a convenience store owner looks at him like he's gonna steal shit every time he walks in? And hey, who cares if you're a chinese detective who gets passed over for promotions you deserve because you're a minority, at least you're working with the authorities? I'm sorry, but I thought every person deserved to be treated with basic human decency regardless of celebrity status.

Beast may have been a celebrity, but is now ostracized by his appearance. Kurt was arrested and accused of murdering a child by authorities, even though he was there in an official capacity as an XSE officer. He actually saved their lives by teleporting them away from the explosion.

So in recap, person X shows up and has a badge backing him. however, due to his appearance, he is subdued and placed in handcuffs. After he escapes and saves the majority of the victims, he is placed back under arrest because he's a a stinking (insert racial slur here). Sure sounds like racism to me.

[Haunt]

So cultural diversity only counts if its an American character? And I was under the strange impression that X-men was created as a comic first, and then later became identified with by oppressed minorities. I'm saying that X-men diversified quicker than any other comic book written at the time.

I'm sorry Stan Lee didn't have the foresight to write the Haunt's Civilly and Politically Correct Version of the X-men. If you're looking to your comics for your social conscience, then you're having issues anyway.

So, by your standards, its cool if you're treated like shit so long as you get laid a little bit more often. Jay-Z gets more ass than I ever will, so its alright if a convenience store owner looks at him like he's gonna steal shit every time he walks in? And hey, who cares if you're a chinese detective who gets passed over for promotions you deserve because you're a minority, at least you're working with the authorities? I'm sorry, but I thought every person deserved to be treated with basic human decency regardless of celebrity status.

Beast may have been a celebrity, but is now ostracized by his appearance. Kurt was arrested and accused of murdering a child by authorities, even though he was there in an official capacity as an XSE officer. He actually saved their lives by teleporting them away from the explosion.

So in recap, person X shows up and has a badge backing him. however, due to his appearance, he is subdued and placed in handcuffs. After he escapes and saves the majority of the victims, he is placed back under arrest because he's a a stinking (insert racial slur here). Sure sounds like racism to me.

so condescending. anyways, my point was that Beast could walk in public without being ostracized. he was mobbed by a bunch of hot women at one point. his latest appearance really has little to do with the x-gene. come to mention it, he had to experiment on himself to achieve the fur-covered look. and when i say Kurt was working with the authorities, i'm saying that he didn't face any prejudice over his looks while in England. and how is being a murder suspect a sign of minority status? a person of any race or ethnicity could be a criminal. if it looked like a crime that only a mutant could have committed and a mutant is at the scene...duhhh.

[Zombienorthstar]

Ultimatley...keeping characters because of their race is in itself racist



rac-ism: (noun)

When a distinction or discrimination is made about a person/group of people based on said person/persons race

[Haunt]

Ultimatley...keeping characters because of their race is in itself racist

rac-ism: (noun)

When a distinction or discrimination is made about a person/group of people based on said person/persons race


but only one of those descriptions is negative. census forms keep track of an individual's race. that would be racist under this definition but not, necessarily, something negative. wanting Synch to not die isn't discrimination.

[Zombienorthstar]

rac-ism: (noun)

When a distinction or discrimination is made about a person/group of people based on said person/persons race


but only one of those descriptions is negative. census forms keep track of an individual's race. that would be racist under this definition but not, necessarily, something negative. wanting Synch to not die isn't discrimination.


Um...knowing someones race...and making a distinction that they are different due to their race is different. People can ask what race I am without making a distinction between me and a black person

Racism doesnt always apply to the negative. Heard the term 'positive discrimination' where firms/ schools etc take on people due to the fact they belong to a minority. This is still racist...

[Brian M.]

If everyone would just be white it would make life so much easier. Then we could just pick on the fat.

[MythicBrawn]

Having racial minorities lose their powers shows how serious were the ramifications of M-Day. It's similar to layoffs in corporate america. You know things are bad when the company starts laying off minorities and women.

[Haunt]

Um...knowing someones race...and making a distinction that they are different due to their race is different. People can ask what race I am without making a distinction between me and a black person

Racism doesnt always apply to the negative. Heard the term 'positive discrimination' where firms/ schools etc take on people due to the fact they belong to a minority. This is still racist...


yeah, well i don't really care. it's the 4th of July.

[Faded]

Ultimatley...keeping characters because of their race is in itself racist

I don't think anyone is arguing for characters they don't find interesting to stick around because they're a minority.

The main thing is Marvel keeps offing their characters (depowering is still offing IMO). Its not exclusive to minorities though: there are plenty of white characters I was upset they depowered (like Tarot, Scanner, etc.).

Personally, my problem is not I want them to create a bunch of minorities and stick them down our throat--but I'd like to see the ones we got/had get more face time to get fleshed out and not killed when their numbers are so low.

Its all about preserving those are who unique--white, ethnic, or otherwise. And Marvel just doesn't seem to keep many characters who catch my eye.

Just like it would suck if they killed the only gay student (Anole), which would have great storytelling possiblities, it sucks that they would do away with the only [insert race], which people may identify with.

Race isn't the primary issue, but I'll admit that its a factor.

Eh...I don't know what the hell I'm saying. :D It's the FOURTH OF JULY!

[Callisto]

No, you said Marvel has a lack of ethnic-representation. Well, the Serpent Society is filled with ethnicity. And even has an overweight chick to boot.


when it comes to the x-men.

[Callisto]

Me personally I think your a idiot for being outraged. .


So i'm an idiot because i would like to see more ethnicly diverse casts in the x-teams? i think your an idiot because you fail to grasp how this is nothing more then a simple debate no one is outraged over anything here.


1) Its a comic book and not real life. As soon as you start injecting reality into something as fictional as a comic book then you need to stop reading because your taking it way to seriously. I mean honestly folks, its a (as the batman would put it) a god damn comic book and nothing else..


i'm not taking anything seriously, i'm just debating about what i would like to see happen with x-men, which is a more visually ethnic diverse cast which probably won't happen if the few minorities end up being powerless or killed.

1) 2) Mutants are the minority and what stan lee originally intended was them to represent miniorities. I mean look at them, they are hated by humans, herded up like cattle and anti mutant slogans allover the streets now, even more so than before. But I guess they have to actually be asian or something right? Green dude with 6 arms and 4 eyeballs isnt a minority because he doesnt fit your description right? I mean the lack of human features just makes him white or what? I would think guy on fire would be the ultimate minority, more black mutants around than man made of fire mutants with glowing skeleton inside said fire...


what is your point? we all know mutants themselves are minorities, i'm just saying i would like to see an ethnicly diverse x-team why is that such a ridiculous thing to ask for? they had that with x-treme why can't they do the same with other x-teams?


Besides if you hate it so much stop reading comics and stop visiting comic related forums and go join a protest rally and let the rest of us enjoy our comics....

don't tell me what to do, your not my mother.

My best friend is black and we had this discussion before and he personally doesnt like most black charcters in comics because they "act black" and that annoys him almost as much as it does me. He doesnt even like luke cage who is fairly normal cause he tries to be the hard ass black dude who wont wear a uniform cause he is to cool and wears his little beannie hat all the time. Until someone else brought this up not long ago neither of us had really noticed and we didnt care, they are just drawings afterall and the only people (regardless of race) who seem to care are people with nothing better to do. You need a life or a job thats more than serving lattes at starbucks 18 hours a week if this is what your doing with your time..


well i guess since your "black" friend doesn't like black superheros that makes all the difference, gimme a break. lol


This is about as stupid as someone having a argument about star wars being racist against wookies because they arent shown as much as humans or that lucas is a racist cause all the stormtroopers wear white armor..


I never said marvel was racist.

Im done in this thread though because I know it will only get worse in here. Ive said what I needed.

thankgod, your input in this thread was definetly not needed.

[Tre Styles]

You can't be serious, right? Sure, the original X-men were all white, but pretty much every comic book character at the time was all white. The X-men then became one of the most diverse teams with the launch of GSXM 1. The team had an Asian, an African, a blue German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian, and a Native American. This is a team that is both racially and culturally diverse.

Okay, yea they had an Asian, an African, a blue German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian, and a Native American. Awesome. But the point is how long did those last? The Asian was on the team for like 5 minutes, the Native American was there for 10. Then you were left with a cast that was majority Caucasian/European in nature. It was a great cast, but the fact is, a young child of a different ethnicity growing up wouldn't be able to identify with them on a surface level because they don't look like them. (The African wasn't even that close)This is a topic that is better expressed in Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye" which deals with a young African-American female who has to deal with how society views beauty based on everything that she sees as the ideal beauty has fairer skin, lighter hair, and lighter eyes. The team may have been seen to be "racially and culturally diverse". But that was then, and we are talking about now. On the team now, what's really racially or culturally diverse about it? Can a young Japanese, Chinese, African, Hispanic/Latino, Native American really look at the X-Men and say yes, they represent me, my heritage, my culture? Or when we examine the actually topic, the decimation...can we really say that it didn't affect the broad possibilites of the minorities that happen to mutants? Or is that mutants that happen to be minorities? Could some...just some of those characters have been further developed? Why didn't they decimate Emma Frost? Cyclops? Colossus? Wolverine? Havok? Angel? Etc, etc, etc.I think the storyline would've had more punch to it if they did something like that. ..Just some questions, some food for thought.

My second problem is that people seem to be unable to see the parallels between mutants and racisim. Beast and Nightcrawler cannot go into public without being shunned or feared. People tend to avoid them based only on their physical appearance, regardless of the heroes that they are. The way they look causes people to pass judgement on them without even knowing them. If that is not a metaphor for racism, then I do not know what is.

There are plenty of parrallels between mutants and racism, but Nightcrawler and Beast both could slap on an image inducer in a heartbeat, and there choice of skin color is always.....white. Yes, people would avoid them based on their physical appearence, which is quite the point. I think that Anarchist from X-Statix said it best about being a black mutant: "It's like being black with a little black added on it" or something like that.

Finally, threads like this demonstrate how far everyone has to go before we've really dealt with our hatreds and ignorance. Racism won't really be dealt with until we look at a person and see just a man or a woman, not a black man or a white woman. We're all just people, and maybe one day we'll actually realize it.


I agree with you on theory, you make some excellent points, and yes, ultimately we're all just people and should understand that racism is a social construct, and should deal with our hatreds and ignorance. It's threads like these that do help to bring some issues to the light, because it really deals with people's comfort zones and shows just how uncomfortable some people are with the fact of race and social issues, which as you said that the X-Men represent the most. I think that open dialouge is one of the first keys to combating ignorance and opening the eyes of people. I wonder what would happen if they changed all the X-Men to an all-black squad, or an all-Asian team, what the reactions would be. Yes, we're all just people, but we're people with varied histories, cultures, heritages. We didn't grow up the same. We have differences. We have different skin colors. We have different sexualities. We have differences. We need to embrace those differences and not try to have everyone be represented in the same cookie cutter image in comics.

[dazzler_slave]

Okay, yea they had an Asian, an African, a blue German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian, and a Native American. Awesome. But the point is how long did those last? The Asian was on the team for like 5 minutes, the Native American was there for 10. Then you were left with a cast that was majority Caucasian/European in nature. It was a great cast, but the fact is, a young child of a different ethnicity growing up wouldn't be able to identify with them on a surface level because they don't look like them. (The African wasn't even that close)This is a topic that is better expressed in Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye" which deals with a young African-American female who has to deal with how society views beauty based on everything that she sees as the ideal beauty has fairer skin, lighter hair, and lighter eyes. The team may have been seen to be "racially and culturally diverse". But that was then, and we are talking about now. On the team now, what's really racially or culturally diverse about it? Can a young Japanese, Chinese, African, Hispanic/Latino, Native American really look at the X-Men and say yes, they represent me, my heritage, my culture? Or when we examine the actually topic, the decimation...can we really say that it didn't affect the broad possibilites of the minorities that happen to mutants? Or is that mutants that happen to be minorities? Could some...just some of those characters have been further developed? Why didn't they decimate Emma Frost? Cyclops? Colossus? Wolverine? Havok? Angel? Etc, etc, etc.I think the storyline would've had more punch to it if they did something like that. ..Just some questions, some food for thought.



There are plenty of parrallels between mutants and racism, but Nightcrawler and Beast both could slap on an image inducer in a heartbeat, and there choice of skin color is always.....white. Yes, people would avoid them based on their physical appearence, which is quite the point. I think that Anarchist from X-Statix said it best about being a black mutant: "It's like being black with a little black added on it" or something like that.




I agree with you on theory, you make some excellent points, and yes, ultimately we're all just people and should understand that racism is a social construct, and should deal with our hatreds and ignorance. It's threads like these that do help to bring some issues to the light, because it really deals with people's comfort zones and shows just how uncomfortable some people are with the fact of race and social issues, which as you said that the X-Men represent the most. I think that open dialouge is one of the first keys to combating ignorance and opening the eyes of people. I wonder what would happen if they changed all the X-Men to an all-black squad, or an all-Asian team, what the reactions would be. Yes, we're all just people, but we're people with varied histories, cultures, heritages. We didn't grow up the same. We have differences. We have different skin colors. We have different sexualities. We have differences. We need to embrace those differences and not try to have everyone be represented in the same cookie cutter image in comics.
Thank you my friend! You summed up exactly what I wanted to say but for some reason was unable to express! :D

[Mariah]

Thank you my friend! You summed up exactly what I wanted to say but for some reason was unable to express! :D
HONEY!!!!! YOU'RE BACK!!!!! I'M SO EXCITED!!!!!

[Michael P]

I thought this was the X-Men, not "It's A Small World."

[dazzler_slave]

I thought this was the X-Men, not "It's A Small World."
That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a long time, and completely against the whole original point of the X-Men.

[Beast]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a long time, and completely against the whole original point of the X-Men.
Not ignorant at all. And the original point of the X-Men was protecting a world that hates and fears them from evil mutants and other dangers. Not to recruit one member from every country. I don't recall their mission statement ever beeing to recruit members to fill a minority quota. It's supposed to be 'The X-Men' not 'The Token Minority Team'. There's a cartoon on Adult Swim if your looking for Minoriteam. :D

[Zombienorthstar]

I think while this discussion of X-rosters and their ethnicity over the last few years has been interesting...its getting away from the point. 'Should the racial minority mutants have lost their powers?'

And the answer is yes, some of them should.

[Sentinel K]

Not ignorant at all. And the original point of the X-Men was protecting a world that hates and fears them from evil mutants and other dangers. Not to recruit one member from every country. I don't recall their mission statement ever beeing to recruit members to fill a minority quota. It's supposed to be 'The X-Men' not 'The Token Minority Team'. ;)

YES!!!

X-Men not PC-Men.

[Michael P]

That isn't the answer. Just look at Reggie Hudlin's Black Panther. The character became a massive racial stereotype under a black writer, where as he'd been written respectfully by white writers for years. Not to mention the mangling of characters like Luke Cage under Reggie's run.

I agree with your overall point, but it's important to note that Christopher Priest, who wrote the previous volume of Black Panther (which is often held up as one of the best portrayals of T'Challa in his history), is also black.

[Beast]

YES!!!

X-Men not PC-Men.
You can't call them PC-Men, that's degrading to women.

They have to be The PC-People. :D

[Brian M.]

I think while this discussion of X-rosters and their ethnicity over the last few years has been interesting...its getting away from the point. 'Should the racial minority mutants have lost their powers?'

And the answer is yes, some of them should.


The same %age should have lost their powers in the both the minority and majority.

[Beast]

I agree with your overall point, but it's important to note that Christopher Priest, who wrote the previous volume of Black Panther (which is often held up as one of the best portrayals of T'Challa in his history), is also black.
Oh, I know. And he showed respect for the character and the Universe. He didn't turn the Wakandas into a bunch of Stereotypical 'Black' characters. Or have T'Challa spouting "You got me straight trippin, boo."

[Sentinel K]

You can't call them PC-Men, that's degrading to women.

They have to be The PC-People. :D

F*** that.

Women are losers*


*This does not represent the ACTUAL opinion of Sentinal K

[Brian M.]

F*** that.

Women are losers*


*This does not represent the ACTUAL opinion of Sentinal K


Apprently they find you icky too.

[Beast]

F*** that.

Women are losers*


*This does not represent the ACTUAL opinion of Sentinal K
Quit lying, you do they do to. ;) :D

[mattbib]

Oh, I know. And he showed respect for the character and the Universe. He didn't turn the Wakandas into a bunch of Stereotypical 'Black' characters. Or have T'Challa spouting "You got me straight trippin, boo."And he used Dakota North so he's my hero.

[Beast]

And he used Dakota North so he's my hero.
What ever happened with her new series? Did it just die?

[Sentinel K]

Apprently they find you icky too.

Walked right into that didn't I? :rolleyes:

[Brian M.]

Walked right into that didn't I? :rolleyes:


Was hard to not to take that one, sorry. I can't control it.

[dazzler_slave]

Not ignorant at all. And the original point of the X-Men was protecting a world that hates and fears them from evil mutants and other dangers. Not to recruit one member from every country. I don't recall their mission statement ever beeing to recruit members to fill a minority quota. It's supposed to be 'The X-Men' not 'The Token Minority Team'. There's a cartoon on Adult Swim if your looking for Minoriteam. :D
What I meant was that Stan Lee wascommenting on race relations with the X-Men, using the concept of a mutant as a stand in for minorities. Especially considering the movements of African Americans, Native Americans and homosexuals during the 60's and 70's. I love how when some posters are simply requesting a more diverse Marvel and some attention given to developing minority characters you suddenly start talking about filling quotas and adding token minorities. What exactly is it about seeing characters of different skin colours, ethnic backgrounds and diverse cultures that threatens you so much? BTW, adding a smiley icon after saying something nasty doesn't make it funny or soften the blow at all.

[Beast]

What I meant was that Stan Lee wascommenting on race relations with the X-Men, using the concept of a mutant as a stand in for minorities. Especially considering the movements of African Americans, Native Americans and homosexuals during the 60's and 70's. I love how when some posters are simply requesting a more diverse Marvel and some attention given to developing minority characters you suddenly start talking about filling quotas and adding token minorities. What exactly is it about seeing characters of different skin colours, ethnic backgrounds and diverse cultures that threatens you so much? BTW, adding a smiley icon after saying something nasty doesn't make it funny or soften the blow at all.
You don't need to explain the X-Men or the 60's and 70's to me, I'm well aware of all these things. And those things don't threaten me at all, to imply so is silly as hell. I just find the whole argument absurd. And how is anything I just said nasty? Me thinks you're taking offense just to further your argument.

[Michael P]

For that matter, I think it's salient to also point out the white mutants who were decimated, to wit: Magneto, Blob, Callisto, Hannah Levy, Quicksilver, Aero, DJ, Dryad, Network, Preview, Prodigy, Rubbermaid, Specter, Chamber, Stacy X, Marrow, Hub, Hack, Purge, Wicked, Freakshow, Abyss, Beak, Mesmero, Professor X, Unus, Artie, Black Tom, Paul Patterson, Mary Zero, Murmur, Phantazia, Radius, Redneck, Scanner, Slipstream, Tarot, Wildside, Windshear, and probably more.

[mattbib]

What ever happened with her new series? Did it just die?According to artist Lauren McCubbin:

07/01/06
CARRIER is still on track. No worries. As is DAKOTA NORTH - we had to delay a bit because C.B. Cebulski is the most popular boy at the dance, but he has found some more space on his dance card and we are full steam ahead. Have I told that the book is gonna be a MAX book? Cause it is.

[Beast]

For that matter, I think it's salient to also point out the white mutants who were decimated, to wit: Magneto, Blob, Callisto, Hannah Levy, Quicksilver, Aero, DJ, Dryad, Network, Preview, Prodigy, Rubbermaid, Specter, Chamber, Stacy X, Marrow, Hub, Hack, Purge, Wicked, Freakshow, Abyss, Beak, Mesmero, Professor X, Unus, Artie, Black Tom, Paul Patterson, Mary Zero, Murmur, Phantazia, Radius, Redneck, Scanner, Slipstream, Tarot, Wildside, Windshear, and probably more.
All those poor white characters. :(

[Beast]

According to artist Lauren McCubbin:

07/01/06
CARRIER is still on track. No worries. As is DAKOTA NORTH - we had to delay a bit because C.B. Cebulski is the most popular boy at the dance, but he has found some more space on his dance card and we are full steam ahead. Have I told that the book is gonna be a MAX book? Cause it is.
That's good to hear, even though I'm not that in the know on Dakota North. I hope C.B. Cebulski's X-Men: Fairy Tales book does well, I'd love to see more stories like that from him. The first one was especially good.

[Zombienorthstar]

What I meant was that Stan Lee wascommenting on race relations with the X-Men, using the concept of a mutant as a stand in for minorities. Especially considering the movements of African Americans, Native Americans and homosexuals during the 60's and 70's. I love how when some posters are simply requesting a more diverse Marvel and some attention given to developing minority characters you suddenly start talking about filling quotas and adding token minorities. What exactly is it about seeing characters of different skin colours, ethnic backgrounds and diverse cultures that threatens you so much? BTW, adding a smiley icon after saying something nasty doesn't make it funny or soften the blow at all.


Because thats the nature of this topic D_S...its basically saying all the racial minority characters should have been saved....not all the good racial minority characters- suddenly it becomes about quotas.

I want more diversity but not by making people of minorities an exception to the white/straight/christian characters. Then it just becomes a different kind of prejudice.

[mattbib]

All those poor white characters. :(And a couple of them aren't even white...

[Sentinel K]

And a couple of them aren't even white...

Screw THEM then!

[Beast]

And a couple of them aren't even white...
Remember, this thread has said that anyone with light skin is white. ;) :D

[dazzler_slave]

You don't need to explain the X-Men or the 60's and 70's to me, I'm well aware of all these things. And those things don't threaten me at all, I just find the whole argument absurd. And how is anything I just said nasty? Me thinks you're taking offense just to further your argument.
I'm not taking offense per se. I just hate the term token minority. And I hate that it is used as an excuse to hate on any minority character who joins a team. Maybe Storm was a token initially, but she certainly grew beyond that over time. Most minority characters don't get the chance to develop. I don't know why I'm even arguing this anymore. No one will change their minds, including Marvel, so we will still see the same type of rosters we are seeing now. All white Astonishing, All white X-men, one minority in Uncanny (two if Darwin actually joins, so Uncanny is doing ok). And if any of us people of colour express an interest in seeing a more diverse cast, we will continue to be told that Blond haired Blue eyed Angel represents a minority because he has wings. Therefore, I won't comment anymore...I know my place now. But I do wonder why no one has commented on Tre Styles post. Perhaps it is because he actually posted a very intelligent and logical post in favour of more diversity and therefore it is hard to just come back with some smart mouthed reply. Beast, Pete, UTV, Zombie, I love you all, and I enjoy posting and reading your post most of the time, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[dazzler_slave]

Because thats the nature of this topic D_S...its basically saying all the racial minority characters should have been saved....not all the good racial minority characters- suddenly it becomes about quotas.

I want more diversity but not by making people of minorities an exception to the white/straight/christian characters. Then it just becomes a different kind of prejudice.
My last comment is that you are right, some characters may not be as intersting, and Marvel certainly did a good job of weeding out the white characters like that. But of the minorities, we lost a lot who had a ton of potential. That is a real shame when the representation in comics is not the same as the real cultural/ethnic/racial breakdown in real life. There is no reason someone like Danielle Moonstar should have been decimated, for example, when someone like Emma Frost sayed powered up.

Anyway, like I said, I won't post on this subject anymore, and will appease my lack of minority X-Men by being thrilled Warpath is now an X-Man.

[Sentinel K]

The thing is though, the X-Men cast is pretty much set in stone now.

Writers learned from the 90's that new X-Men are not well received and don't last.

Thunderbird III, Maggot, Cece Reyes were all attempts at adding a minority to the team.

They were generally disliked (although i like Neal and Cece), so were discarded.

So yeah, its all well and good saying we need more diversity, but attempts have been made and the fans said 'No'.

[Zombienorthstar]

I'm not saying i dont want to see minority characters given more devlopment (Monet, Cecilia Reyes and Billy Kaplan being my favourite comic book characters) however i dont feel minoritIES should be shoe horned in because they're minorities...i want it to be a natural progression when creating new characters.

[dazzler_slave]

The thing is though, the X-Men cast is pretty much set in stone now.

Writers learned from the 90's that new X-Men are not well received and don't last.

Thunderbird III, Maggot, Cece Reyes were all attempts at adding a minority to the team.

They were generally disliked (although i like Neal and Cece), so were discarded.

So yeah, its all well and good saying we need more diversity, but attempts have been made and the fans said 'No'.
And I would say that therein lies the root of the problem. Maybe that speaks more truths than we are comfortable with. Reyes was a much more interesting character than Gambit, and Neal was at least as interesting. But for some reason Gambit succeeded where the other two failed. Anyway this really is my last post! :D

[Zombienorthstar]

And I would say that therein lies the root of the problem. Maybe that speaks more truths than we are comfortable with. Reyes was a much more interesting character than Gambit, and Neal was at least as interesting. But for some reason Gambit succeeded where the other two failed. Anyway this really is my last post! :D


Yeah but what does it say?

That comic readers are racist?

That comic writers cant write minorities?

[Beast]

Well, from a lot of posts around here... more people like CeCe than they like Gambit. ;)

[Sentinel K]

And I would say that therein lies the root of the problem. Maybe that speaks more truths than we are comfortable with. Reyes was a much more interesting character than Gambit, and Neal was at least as interesting. But for some reason Gambit succeeded where the other two failed. Anyway this really is my last post! :D

Maybe the X-Men reached saturation point?

Maybe it was the writing?

Maybe comic fans are racist scum?

Maybe you suck for dissing Gambit?

[Beast]

Yeah but what does it say?

That comic readers are racist?

That comic writers cant write minorities?
No, it just means we're stubborn and set in our ways. That it's hard for to make us like new characters when we fell in love with the old ones, and many of us grew up with them. Xorn was one of the most recent characters who had a strong following. He wasn't shoe-horned in and actually was an interesting character. Unfortunatly, he was destroyed by revealing him as Magneto in Planet X.

[mattbib]

Why didn't they decimate Emma Frost? Cyclops? Colossus? Wolverine? Havok? Angel? Etc, etc, etc.I think the storyline would've had more punch to it if they did something like that. ..Just some questions, some food for thought.There's really nothing arguable in any of your points, but the answer to this is clear. $$$. The same reason Disney would never kill off Mickey Mouse. You don't throw away long-standing, licensable properties. We've seen plenty of times that even when they DO it's only to bring them back.

[Zombienorthstar]

Why didn't they decimate Emma Frost? Cyclops? Colossus? Wolverine? Havok? Angel?



The same reason they didnt decimate Storm, Bishop, Dust, Psylocke...etc...because they had a stong fan following.

I think the main problem has been a lack of interesting characters who are part of an ethnic minority....not because alll the 'good' characters were decimated.

[Beast]

The same reason they didnt decimate Storm, Bishop, Dust, Psylocke...etc...because they had a stong fan following.

I think the main problem has been a lack of interesting characters who are part of an ethnic minority....not because alll the 'good' characters were decimated.
Though they did depower a few popular characters. I think there should be more outrage for some of the characters they didn't depower and decided to keep around. Mammomax for example? Who honestly likes this character and wanted him around? Well... other than Mike Marts. :p

[shaunyc56]

When you pick up a comic, just like when you watch TV or a movie, you want to see someone who looks a little like you so you can put yourself there. Now there have been som really bad characters that were minorites, and there are some really bad characters that are white. In comics like life, the minority characters aren't gonna get the same chance to suck as long as their white sucking counterparts, which isn't neccesarily that bad.

When a good character that you like, is depowered or killed, and they look kinda like you, that's heart breaking. For me that's David, I like the guy, with the smaller roster I see him leading the New Xmen. Bishop never really gets to use his powers for some reason, but at least he has them. But w/ David I read the last issue and you see him take a bullet for a classmate and you just wonder, is this it for him, Damn.

[Brian M.]

I think I'm racist.

All my favorite characters are white.

I just noticed that. I'm moving to Alabama. See ya.

[Sentinel K]

I think I'm racist.

All my favorite characters are white.

I just noticed that. I'm moving to Alabama. See ya.

I think that's natural dude.

We tend to gravitate towards what is like us.

[Beast]

When you pick up a comic, just like when you watch TV or a movie, you want to see someone who looks a little like you so you can put yourself there. Now there have been som really bad characters that were minorites, and there are some really bad characters that are white. In comics like life, the minority characters aren't gonna get the same chance to suck as long as their white sucking counterparts, which isn't neccesarily that bad.

When a good character that you like, is depowered or killed, and they look kinda like you, that's heart breaking. For me that's David, I like the guy, with the smaller roster I see him leading the New Xmen. Bishop never really gets to use his powers for some reason, but at least he has them. But w/ David I read the last issue and you see him take a bullet for a classmate and you just wonder, is this it for him, Damn.
That's the same weak sauce argument that everyone uses for discussions like this. Sure it's nice to see a varied cast, but to not be able to get into or enjoy a story simply because there isn't a character like you in it... well, that just seems like a pretty weak argument. Basically... "This story would be so great, if it had a black man in it... so I could get into it." Why is that necessary? If everyone needed a character that represented them, they should start making 'United Nations: The Comic Book'. I don't need a gay character in every story to get into it or enjoy it. And considering the current Black Panther book, I'd say that a black character is being given a lot of oppertunity to suck, given it's continuing to scrape along with it's poor sales still.

[Brian M.]

I think that's natural dude.

We tend to gravitate towards what is like us.

But that makes me insensitive.

[Brian M.]

That's the same weak sauce argument that everyone uses for discussions like this. Sure it's nice to see a varied cast, but to not be able to get into or enjoy a story simply because there isn't a character like you in it... well, that just seems like a pretty weak argument. Basically... "This story would be so great, if it had a black man in it... so I could get into it." Why is that necessary? If everyone needed a character that represented them, they should start making 'United Nations: The Comic Book'. I don't need a gay character in every story to get into it or enjoy it. And considering the current Black Panther book, I'd say that a black character is being given a lot of oppertunity to suck, given it's continuing to scrape along with it's poor sales still.

He's right. When I watch porn I don't get upset that the guy there is twice my size or the girl is hotter then anything I can touch. I still enjoy the plot twists and plot points as the story goes. I mean I've worked construction before and just becuase the saucy housewife doesn't offer to have me check her plumbing doesn't mean I can't enjoy the next Slutty Housewives series. Lemme tell yea I played football for 11 years and not once did a bus full of cheerleaders walk into my locker room to congratulate us. Not once at a car wash did I get a sexy soap down. It would be nice to relate to this stuff but it doesn't ruin the story for me.

[Sentinel K]

But that makes me insensitive.

It doesn't mean you dislike the minority characters.

I like Bishop and Luke Cage.

I just like Cyclops, Gambit and Psylocke more.

(Although Gambit isn't exactly white anymore......)

[Brian M.]

It doesn't mean you dislike the minority characters.

I like Bishop and Luke Cage.

I just like Cyclops, Gambit and Psylocke more.

(Although Gambit isn't exactly white anymore......)

True...you think that change affected Gambit everywhere? If so, do you think Rogue is regretting it?

[Hi-Fi]

I think that's natural dude.

We tend to gravitate towards what is like us.

I disagree. Storm is one of my favorites character and I'm not a black goddess.

I do think there are some characters that you instantly fall in love because they're like you (in my case Yorick, from Y).

But I also think that story and characterization makes you love a character, like Rogue for me.

[Sentinel K]

True...you think that change affected Gambit everywhere? If so, do you think Rogue is regretting it?

Hahaha!

Well...its not like she could touch it anyway.