New Avengers #21 *Spoilers*

[Rokk]

I was unimpressed with this issue. I enjoyed the one fight scene with Captain America kicking butt. But, other than that, all I got was a re-hash of the same pro-registration and anti-registration debate that I have already read in plenty of previous issues of Amazing Spider-Man, Civil War, Frontline and other comics.

This issue simply fillied in the gaps between Civil War #1 and #2. Personally, I just found this an average read.

[Leebenhouse]

Though, like many, I dont approve of your self promotion of your review site, I must say, I think this was the best Bendis book I've ever read. That and this is the only N.A. review thread up.

Now, that's not saying much.

But, as for his writing on this one, it was pretty good. Now, Falcon's dialogue? Terrible. Someone who once ran for senator don't talk like no homie from the street. Apparently Bendis has never met a real life black person, so he writes em all as "homies from the street." If Falcon's dialogue was a little better, and Cap's inner monologue a little more patriotic, I'd say it was pretty good. I liked the thing with Dugan asking him to come in, but letting him go.

As for Chaykin's art... wow, it was kind of... craptacular. Not right for a super hero book.

But as for Cap's portrayl. Cap was mostly in the right charachter, Bendis used a lot of the old soldier, and a bit of the artist(cap was an artist), but unfortunantly, none of the true patriot that is Captain America. Too many writers think of him as a true patriot, and not enough as an old warrior. Like how Brubacker is almost making it seem like Cap never killed, and Bucky did the shooting/killing generally.

Also I didn't like the Falcon calling Iron Man a constant sell out, even though that's what most of us are thinking. Although I did like the explanation of Spidey's bond with Stark as the reason for his alliance.

All and all, a pretty good issue, aside from a bit of bad dialogue, and Chaykin's innapropriate art.

[agrich]

The only thing inappropriate about Chaykin's art was that it was in a book which had no female characters in it. A true waste.

I knew a lot of people wouldn't like Chaykin's style, but considering a lot of those same people think Deodato is great, I'll just say that people have different opinions on things, which is fine.

[drwho]

Yeah this issue really didnt seem to add anything to it since we already knew what was up with Mr.Pym. The art was really p-u and if he draws Blade like this I'm avoiding it like the plague. Even the writing was boring. One of Bendis's worst issues.

[mattbib]

Good plot. Exciting bits, decent characterization, and some good (and some bad) dialogue. While I was overall disappointed with the art there were some things I liked about it, but it just wasn't my cup of tea.

[riotgear]

Now, Falcon's dialogue? Terrible. Someone who once ran for senator don't talk like no homie from the street. Apparently Bendis has never met a real life black person, so he writes em all as "homies from the street."

While I agree that Falcon's dialogue was horribly cliche, I can see what Bendis was thinking, since Sam was originally a street thug. However, Sam has gone to school and gotten a degree since then. Bendis has a talent for latching on to a portion of a character's persona, not the entire thing.

[Haunt]

While I agree that Falcon's dialogue was horribly cliche, I can see what Bendis was thinking, since Sam was originally a street thug. However, Sam has gone to school and gotten a degree since then. Bendis has a talent for latching on to a portion of a character's persona, not the entire thing.


Sam was not originally a street thug. he was a preacher's kid who became a pimp when his parents died. :)

[riotgear]

Sam was not originally a street thug. he was a preacher's kid who became a pimp when his parents died. :)

So a pimp is not a street thug? Pardon me, I knew that. I meant to say "hustler".

[Red Lotus]

I thought this issue was good. I hated Falcon. I thought for a second he was going to say I pity the fool!

I thought Bendis did a good job with Cap. I like the wartime battle line and I also like that Cap stills wants to try to get through to Spider-man thats almost a set up for ASM 534.

[ultramandingo]

dang! just when was gunna drop this book they get chakin to do cap'n a! well im sure bendis will have them fightin vampires or the maggia next month.

[Cody H]

Ok issue, I guess. Cap's perspective certainly needs to be explored given his importance. I will admit, I am enjoying the spattering of bad-ass moments with been getting with Cap lately, but beyond that, this issue was an ok. Thought Falcon seemed a little extreme with some of his ranting (Tony's always been a sell-out), but I'm unfamiliar with the character, so who knows.

[Sean Whitmore]

Did not care for the art. Nope, not a fan.

As for the writing...meh. Not bad, but just more of them same. I'm getting the feeling that everything Civil War-related is going to be treading water while all the good stuff happens in the mini. I did like that Sam is Cap's first "recruit".

And I really liked the exchange between Cap and Hank.

Hank: "I didn't think you thought that much of me."
Cap: "You were wrong. Again."

In one swoop, Cap confirms his respect for Hank and insults his stupid ass. :)


SEAN

[Red State Cap]

This is the worst issue of New Avengers by far.
The art is terrible, some of the worst I've ever seen in the Avengers book.
The characterization of Captain America is so far off that only Bendis could have been guilty of it.
The "arguments" go well into political ranting on Bendis' part. Cap comes across as manic-depressive. First he's lost in some kind of self-pity martydom monologue, then he's implying that he's ready to start killing people on the other side over "registration." And Falcon is doing his best Che Guevara imitation.
I thought he would really have a hard time topping the pile of crap that was #20, but #21 does so, and comfortably.

RSC

[BobbyRobby]

I agree with some of the criticisms already stated, such as Falcon's dialogue and bad art. Overall though, I liked it.

You just know Cap is going to set Spider-Man straight when he said, "Maybe he just needs someone to-"

Liked the encounter with Pym a lot too.

[Bobster777]

Oh man, I hated the art. Good story though. It was nice to see how Cap got everything initially started. It was also nice to see that while on the field, Cap is unflappable, by himself, he has insecurities. Too bad he didn't get to Peter first. It may have been enough to get him to join the anti side from the start.

[Hiromi]

echo the meh statements, decent overall, but nothing to really stand out, aside from Cap's "You were wrong. Again." line which was surprisingly powerful.

[Beamish]

I was surprised at the length of the battle sequences. Ususally we get the standard Bendis 1 or 2 panels, but in this issue we got a lot more, so I was happy with that. I also liked the Cap/Pym stuff, but I totally agree with everyone that Sam's diologue was way off.

[Schmakt]

I loved Chaykin's Blackhawk and The Shadow and American Flagg...etc etc...

but I really didn't think his art fit this issue.

besides that, I thought the story mostly sucked. I was not interested in what was happening the entire time. Besides, Cap has a solo book... let's see the freakin' Avengers, man. Boo on this.

[jade_nova]

I only have two complaints with this issue. The first is Captain America calling the SHIELD Agents "capekillers". I would have them be called something else because hardly any heroes wear capes anymore. The second is when Captain America says, "My Pal. My Partner." in regards to Iron Man. I would have switched it around so the emphasis is on "My Pal."

[shaunyc56]

I actually liked the writing, (except for Sam, seems like Bendis is fond of stereotyping). My favorite line in the book is actually Cap saying to Hank "You remeber when you asked what the difference is between the way soilders fight and what we do? If you don't stand down you are going to find out." Priceless. Also nailing him in the face w/ the sheild was awsome too. Big, Small, Flying, or Standing, the only people Pym can fight are married to him.

[TheMuertoCorpse]

So Chaykin is some sort of legend, eh?
I guess Legends are overrated.

That art was pure crap on a stick...

[Leebenhouse]

Old artists are like athletes, most of the time they get worse as they get older. And a lot of art is in the inker too. Just look at Byrne. His stuff from the late 90s on is kinda crappy, but his stuff from the 80s, now that was good.

Although I honestly can't judge Chaykin, but I'd have to say that his art would be more suited to a DC not-so-super hero book. Everyone was scrawny with big heads. And what was up with Falcon's goatee?

[Bobster777]

Old artists are like athletes, most of the time they get worse as they get older. And a lot of art is in the inker too. Just look at Byrne. His stuff from the late 90s on is kinda crappy, but his stuff from the 80s, now that was good.

Although I honestly can't judge Chaykin, but I'd have to say that his art would be more suited to a DC not-so-super hero book. Everyone was scrawny with big heads. And what was up with Falcon's goatee?

I love works of many of the older artists like George Perez. It's just, Chaykin's art looked so choppy. I was really expecting to see amazing stuff considerig how they advertised it on the Marvel website. However, it was just plain blah. Well, I guess to each their own. Considering this guy is popular, there must be a lot of people out there who like his stuff.

[The Charlatan]

This issue was merely 'okay' to me... didn't care for the art or dialogue for the most part, but no strong negative reactions to it either...

Noticed that Pym, though going along with Registration, and willing to fight, or at least try to detain Cap, he's certainly not happy with it. Notice the next to last lines in the book-

Hill: Don't kick yourself, Doctor Pym. You did good.

Pym: Shut up.

...or I guess that could just be directed at himsefl for failing, that would be In Character too I think.

[Kirk G]

Oh man, I hated the art. Good story though. It was nice to see how Cap got everything initially started. It was also nice to see that while on the field, Cap is unflappable, by himself, he has insecurities. Too bad he didn't get to Peter first. It may have been enough to get him to join the anti side from the start.
I think it may happen yet.
I just don't know how they are going to undo the identity thing... although they have done it before with both Iron Man and Captain America (Avengers #105 or so...ugh!)...

I would guess that only Professor X or Pheonix or the WATCHER might have the ability to erase it from everyone's mind now, but done so publicly, perhaps it would have to be Wanda's doing to affect all reality!:rolleyes:

[Will.S]

I dunno, I kinda liked the issue. The only thing that hurt it a bit was it's release since it would have worked better had it been out before Civil War #2 came out but it serves as a good lead in to Civil War #2 and at the same time does the disassembling the New Avengers by having Cap already rogue and recruiting an underground squad.

If anything it makes me VERRRY curious about what the Avenger squads will be after Civil War and who's on who's side when all is said and done. The scene with Cap and SHIELD again was sorta redundant since it was done better in CW #1 but it serves it's purpose towards moving Cap along the grid and dodging everyone undercover as well as still doing his superhero thing which again showed in CW #2. The Cap vs Hank Pym skirmish was an odd thing to see play out for me because Millar over in the Ultimates did a similar thing even though the circumstances surrounding Ultimate Cap were much short term than 616 here so there's that bit of a reflection from both universes. It was played less over the top though so it still remains different, I almost feel bad for Pym though as he's been portrayed as being quite an ass throughout this whole event along with Tony and Reed by association.

It was also weird to see Falcon call Tony a sellout along with the slang which I would guess works with the story seeing as how it's really brother vs brother but it seemed harsher than usual. Plus I thought Falcon was more well spoken than say Cage. Howard Chaykin's art was pretty good since I liked his figurework but the action scenes with Cap and SHIELD were harder to make out since I didn't think there was a great deal of flow.

I'm guessing that all the NA CW books will read much better after having seen every character's perspective but I hope there's an ongoing plot that doesn't always leave it to be revealed in the CW series proper such as Cap rounding up more heroes for his anti-proregistration cause.

[FanboyStranger]

I want to preface this by saying that, like Bendis, I love Chaykin's work. However, this issue was Chaykin-by-numbers. When I read this comic, I swear it was like deja-vu-- the words were different, there were costumes, but I had certainly seen all this before. Chaykin's exceptional at action, but here (as in Hawkgirl) none of the nuance of his own work is in play. It read to me that Bendis was so thrilled to have his hero working on his book, that he just cobbled together a "best of Chaykin" story for him, and Howard just redrew some old scenes. All in all, I was disappointed.

But Chaykin still has it. Pick up his recent Challengers of the Unknown trade for some his good recent work.

[Haunt]

I actually liked the writing, (except for Sam, seems like Bendis is fond of stereotyping). My favorite line in the book is actually Cap saying to Hank "You remeber when you asked what the difference is between the way soilders fight and what we do? If you don't stand down you are going to find out." Priceless. Also nailing him in the face w/ the sheild was awsome too. Big, Small, Flying, or Standing, the only people Pym can fight are married to him.


that's not true. he was still able to fight the Wasp after she divorced him.


Noticed that Pym, though going along with Registration, and willing to fight, or at least try to detain Cap, he's certainly not happy with it. Notice the next to last lines in the book-

Hill: Don't kick yourself, Doctor Pym. You did good.

Pym: Shut up.

...or I guess that could just be directed at himsefl for failing, that would be In Character too I think.

Director Hill gets no respect. :mad:

[Nate Palm]

Director Hill gets no respect. :mad:

Nor does she deserve any.

As for Falcon's dialogue I wouldn't really blame BMB. Sam spoke exactly the same way in Priest's Cap/Falcon book.

So are they gonna portray the Pro-Registration side as anything but tools? I thought Marvel was saying they'd make it so neither side seemed like they were in the wrong, but issue after issue the Pro-Reg's are shown as total punks. Of course, they ARE total punks but that's not the point. ;)

[tonearcher]

I think since CW #3 is where the war is going to start they could of used this issue a little bit better to establish the resistance a little more. This was the Captain America (who I'm not a big fan of) issue. It makes Spidey and Iron man look bad, because you see how the Pro-Registration heroes are rollin. Armor... Robots.... and Iron man and Spiderman. They could of used this issue to show the Anti-Registration heroes as a force to be messed with.

[Silver Nimbus]

So are they gonna portray the Pro-Registration side as anything but tools? I thought Marvel was saying they'd make it so neither side seemed like they were in the wrong, but issue after issue the Pro-Reg's are shown as total punks. Of course, they ARE total punks but that's not the point. ;)


I totallly came off this issue the other way. Reading it just made me boggle at what a hypocritical *censored* Captain America is.

Civil liberties? I guess they're only civil liberties when they effect him and his street level hero friends. If he was so gung-ho at not abridging civil liberties, I'd remember a Cap story where he's protesting in the District of Columbia at lack of voting rights or the virtual repeal of the Second Ammendment there. But since law-abiding citizens being unable to elect their own representatitves or own handguns in their nation's capitol doesn't impact Daredevil and the Falcon's ability to bust heads adversely, it doesn't matter.

Frankly, at the end of Civil War I'm going to be very dissappointed if I don't see Cap serving even token jail time. Assault, battery, obstruction of justice, theft, destruction of federal property - these are all crimes he's committed so far in Civil War, above and beyond violation of the SHRA.

The heroes have been committing acts of vigilanteeism for X years of Marvel time. The government has let it slide for the most part. Now the lawfully elected representatives of the People have, at their behest, passed legislation barring these acts. This isn't some mind control event, this is elected government at work. The SHRA is constitutional explicitly under the Second Ammendment.

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Guess what heroes - you're the Militia - and you're being regulated. You ignore this and you can toss all the gun control measures right out the window. Won't that be wonderful for the people of the MU.

[Nate Palm]

Dude did you miss the part where the SRHR says you either sign the act and be inducted into SHIELD or go to jail. Betcha all the mutants are lovin that.

[Sean Whitmore]

Dude did you miss the part where the SRHR says you either sign the act and be inducted into SHIELD or go to jail. Betcha all the mutants are lovin that.


Isn't it only practicing super heroes who have to work for SHIELD? I mean, some poor mutant sap who has no vigilante aspirations wouldn't have to work for them.


SEAN

[Arilou]

Dude did you miss the part where the SRHR says you either sign the act and be inducted into SHIELD or go to jail. Betcha all the mutants are lovin that.

'tis called conscription. Hardly a newfangled phenomenon.

[Nate Palm]

From a Newsrama interview with Joe Quesada:

NRAMA: “werehippy” - Does the Registration Act apply to all super-powered people, or only those that are actively engaged in heroics? And if it applies to all people with powers regardless of their level of activity, how is it different from the Mutant Registration Act, beyond not focusing only on mutants?

JQ: It applies to super humans and vigilantes, werehippy. And yes, it is absolutely no different than mutant registration. For once, the whole of the super powered Marvel Universe knows what it feels like to be a mutant.

Also check out Civil War Frontline #2 in which... SPOILERS

IronDick arrests Prodigy the moment SHRA takes affect even though he isn't doing any superhero type stuff. And where a DEPOWERED Speedball is arrested and thrown in jail for not signing.

End Spoilers.

[Bobster777]

Isn't it only practicing super heroes who have to work for SHIELD? I mean, some poor mutant sap who has no vigilante aspirations wouldn't have to work for them.


SEAN

I'm not sure about this, but I think the mutants were put under the protection of the gov during Decimation. So, if they don't register, they'll have to stay refugees at the mansion for their "protection." I think that's why everything is going to explode on X-Men.

[Tony Starkz]

I only have two complaints with this issue. The first is Captain America calling the SHIELD Agents "capekillers". I would have them be called something else because hardly any heroes wear capes anymore. The second is when Captain America says, "My Pal. My Partner." in regards to Iron Man. I would have switched it around so the emphasis is on "My Pal."

"Capes" was a slang Millar used during his Wolvie run as slang for Superheroes.Let's not get to nitpicky here.

I'm in the obvious minority who loved this issue.Chaykin's art was kickass and a good change.Bendis nailed Cap in this issue and fills in the gap between #1 and 2.Cap was kickass in this issue and I loved the talk with Pym.

[Tony Starkz]

I think since CW #3 is where the war is going to start they could of used this issue a little bit better to establish the resistance a little more. This was the Captain America (who I'm not a big fan of) issue. It makes Spidey and Iron man look bad, because you see how the Pro-Registration heroes are rollin. Armor... Robots.... and Iron man and Spiderman. They could of used this issue to show the Anti-Registration heroes as a force to be messed with.

There's still the next issue with Cage.

[UniqueFrequency]

i found the issue to be 'okay' as well. i was originally going to drop NA with this issue, but flipped through and decided to get it for the CW tie-in.

it's not bad writing like the last few issues, but neither is it good enough that i'm being hooked... guess i'll drop this after CW

[Bobster777]

i found the issue to be 'okay' as well. i was originally going to drop NA with this issue, but flipped through and decided to get it for the CW tie-in.

it's not bad writing like the last few issues, but neither is it good enough that i'm being hooked... guess i'll drop this after CW

I agree with you. Nothing too bad or too good about the writing. I'm sticking around though to see who will be on the new team.

[Leebenhouse]

Capes is a DC slang term, like meta.

[overcomebyfumes]

There's still the next issue with Cage.

...and the issue after that is Spider-Woman, also on the anti-registration side. And I'm betting the fourth issue will be either Spider-Man (either after switching sides or about to switch) or Wolverine just to add to the anti-registration pile-on.

Are all the New Avengers anti except for Tony? Wow. So much for the balanced portrayal we were supposed to get.

[filthysize]

Capes is a DC slang term, like meta.

That has always been DC's thing.Yeah, it's been weird how lately Marvel has embraced the "meta" and "cape" slangs. Since when are the powers in the Marvel U are called "metahumans"? What's next? Image calling Spawn and Savage Dragon "homo superiors"?

The cape thing doesn't fit anyway. What Marvel hero wears a cape? Moon Knight, The Sentry, and.... um, er... Magneto? Doom?

[Sean Whitmore]

That has always been DC's thing.Yeah, it's been weird how lately Marvel has embraced the "meta" and "cape" slangs. Since when are the powers in the Marvel U are called "metahumans"? What's next? Image calling Spawn and Savage Dragon "homo superiors"?


In Civil War #1, didn't Tony refer to Doc Strange as a post-human? That's always been Wildstorm's thing.


SEAN

[Brian Cronin]

As for Falcon's dialogue I wouldn't really blame BMB. Sam spoke exactly the same way in Priest's Cap/Falcon book.

To put it simply, no, he did not.

Priest's Falcon might be closer to Bendis' dialogue than, say, Englehart's Falcon, but no previous Falcon (heck, not even Bendis' Falcon in Avengers Disassembled) has spoke anywhere close to this style of dialogue.

Well, I guess if you count Snap Wilson. ;)

-Brian

[Bobster777]

...and the issue after that is Spider-Woman, also on the anti-registration side. And I'm betting the fourth issue will be either Spider-Man (either after switching sides or about to switch) or Wolverine just to add to the anti-registration pile-on.

Are all the New Avengers anti except for Tony? Wow. So much for the balanced portrayal we were supposed to get.

Sentry is pro and so is Spider Man. If the others were pro, it wouldn't make sense. Luke has never struck me as the type to be establishment. Wolverine doesn't even know the word establishment. As for Spider Woman, it would have been cool if she went pro just to spy for Nick Fury. So, 4 to 3 is not bad. I'm not counting Ronin because I have no clue how she will fit into all this.

[Sean Whitmore]

Sentry is pro and so is Spider Man. If the others were pro, it wouldn't make sense. Luke has never struck me as the type to be establishment. Wolverine doesn't even know the word establishment. As for Spider Woman, it would have been cool if she went pro just to spy for Nick Fury. So, 4 to 3 is not bad. I'm not counting Ronin because I have no clue how she will fit into all this.


I wasn't aware Jessica was anti. Throughout NA, she hasn't been able to shut up about how SHIELD can do no wrong.


SEAN

[Bobster777]

I wasn't aware Jessica was anti. Throughout NA, she hasn't been able to shut up about how SHIELD can do no wrong.


SEAN

Ay crap sorry, wrong Spider Woman. I read this description for Ms. Marvel #6 and got confused. Didn't look close enough to see Julie Carpenter. Well, I guess Jessica can end up being a pro side member.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

...and the issue after that is Spider-Woman, also on the anti-registration side. And I'm betting the fourth issue will be either Spider-Man (either after switching sides or about to switch) or Wolverine just to add to the anti-registration pile-on.

Are all the New Avengers anti except for Tony? Wow. So much for the balanced portrayal we were supposed to get.

Actually, nowhere has it been even hinted by Marvel what side Spider-Woman is taking.
In fact, what Marvel has said is that her position is quite tricky and particular since she is doing the whole triple-agent thing...
I would think she'd be against registration, but I bet this will be more complicated than that...
We'll see.

[Michael P]

Apparently Bendis has never met a real life black person
Of course he doesn't. He lives in Portland, the new Mecca of liberal white flight.

[AllisterH]

'tis called conscription. Hardly a newfangled phenomenon.

Better yet, National Service. Seriously, I'm wondering why the rest of the world is waiting on the US to see how this goes.

In Germany, for example, every male has to either join the army for a stint OR be a janitor in a nursing home. True, you can get out of this by getting medical clearance but in germany, I can't see ANY male mutant NOT be registered since to my knowledge, even if you don't do a stint in the Defence Forces, you still have to get a physical.

[Jmacq1]

Actually, nowhere has it been even hinted by Marvel what side Spider-Woman is taking.
In fact, what Marvel has said is that her position is quite tricky and particular since she is doing the whole triple-agent thing...
I would think she'd be against registration, but I bet this will be more complicated than that...
We'll see.

Actually, it has been hinted. In the last issue of "Thunderbolts", Spider-Woman was prominently displayed on the screen full of "Anti Registration Heroes" in the briefing room.

[Haunt]

That has always been DC's thing.Yeah, it's been weird how lately Marvel has embraced the "meta" and "cape" slangs. Since when are the powers in the Marvel U are called "metahumans"? What's next? Image calling Spawn and Savage Dragon "homo superiors"?

The cape thing doesn't fit anyway. What Marvel hero wears a cape? Moon Knight, The Sentry, and.... um, er... Magneto? Doom?

Justice
Prodigy
Wiccan
Thor
Sentry
Moon Knight
Storm
Black Panther
Quasar

[Saotome]

I can't wait for the next issue were Cap confronts Luke.


Luke won't gobble down as easily as Pym did against Cap. Cap is a bad-a$$.

Pym deserved that.

[CMBMOOL]

Man, that issue reminded me of the Ultimates all over again!! :D

[Den]

I have to confess I did not like the art at all and given the praise Marvel was heaping on the guy, that made it all the more of a let down.

I'll join in with those wondering what the hell happened to the Falcon's diction. Whatever his background, Sam's been a teacher for crying out loud.

But onto the story...

Bendis has always had a hard timg 'getting Cap', of all the characters in the New Avengers, Captain America seems to be the one he gets wrong most often. This time, Cap was the focus, the 'star' and I think it did help Bendis a little in getting a handle on him, but the grip still struck me as somewhat imperfect. Bendis manages to show Cap as a soldier, an artist, and a believer in freedoms, but seems to fail in cap's belief in the nation itself. Then again, when your back is to the wall, and you feel betrayed, optimism about your fellow countrymen can be hard to cling to.

I DO like the fact that Cap can always turn to the Falcon, and that Cap thought Spidey might yet be swayed. I'm having a hard time swallowing how many old school heroes are meekly embracing registration given some of their own back stories and experiences often mean you'd think they'd know better.
However, Pym was treated with some respect and portrayed as trying to be reasonable (or at least Pym thought he was reasonable) and I was glad of that much. The action was also good. The balance between that and Talking heads was actually very well done. There were some good lines... Cap's warning about the difference between war and crime fighting to Pym was well done.

I'd give the comic an over all B- maybe C + due to the art.

[NickThompson]

...and the issue after that is Spider-Woman, also on the anti-registration side. And I'm betting the fourth issue will be either Spider-Man (either after switching sides or about to switch) or Wolverine just to add to the anti-registration pile-on.

Are all the New Avengers anti except for Tony? Wow. So much for the balanced portrayal we were supposed to get.
It's Cap, Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry, Iron Man.


As of now, it is 3-3. Cap, Wolverine and Cage are anti, Stark, Ms Marvel and Spidey are pro. Spider-Woman, Ronin and Sentry are presently unconfirmed, although I believe SW has been indicated to be anti.

[Bobster777]

It's Cap, Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry, Iron Man.


As of now, it is 3-3. Cap, Wolverine and Cage are anti, Stark, Ms Marvel and Spidey are pro. Spider-Woman, Ronin and Sentry are presently unconfirmed, although I believe SW has been indicated to be anti.

Should we add Ms. Marvel? At the present moment, she isn't an Avenger. While Cap offered her a spot, she refused it.

[filthysize]

Heh. Well, whichever side Sentry joins, the opposing side is f$#*ed.

[Brian Cronin]

However, Pym was treated with some respect

It's funny how, if you like Hank Pym, being treated with SOME respect is a big coup.

Don't get me wrong, I was thinking the same exact thing - that I was pleased they treated him with at least a little respect. I just think it's funny how Pym is handled that, if you like Hank, you have to be constantly wary.

-Brian

[NickThompson]

Should we add Ms. Marvel? At the present moment, she isn't an Avenger. While Cap offered her a spot, she refused it.
True, but she then helped out in the next arc, plus the annual, plus I think is in the Luke Cage NA issue. It's quite possibly the worst refusal ever ;)

[Den]

It's funny how, if you like Hank Pym, being treated with SOME respect is a big coup.

Don't get me wrong, I was thinking the same exact thing - that I was pleased they treated him with at least a little respect. I just think it's funny how Pym is handled that, if you like Hank, you have to be constantly wary.

-Brian

This is true. I am not the biggest Hank fan, but considering how some folks seem to be totally forgiving of the likes of Venom, Magneto, or Sabretooh, I think Hank's the victim of an extreme double standard sometimes. Anyone else in the MU seems to be redeemable... except Henry Pym. This, despite the fact Hank has been on the straight and narrow for decades. Writers often seem to think it is important to remind us again and again of his past failures and weaknesses, even if they've been resolved. So yeah, whenever I see a stroy with Pym in it, I have to brace myself to see if the writer is going to stand on a soap box with Hank buried under it or not.

[Haunt]

I DO like the fact that Cap can always turn to the Falcon, and that Cap thought Spidey might yet be swayed. I'm having a hard time swallowing how many old school heroes are meekly embracing registration given some of their own back stories and experiences often mean you'd think they'd know better.


not necessarily. many of the heroes who have sided with Tony have also, at one time or another, had to own up publicly to their mistakes.

Wonderman - had to admit that he embezzled money on national television

Ms Marvel - had to admit in a court of law that she damaged a commercial airliner while in a drunken rage

Pym - 'The Fall of Yellowjacket'

She Hulk - Bone Idaho

the Thunderbolts - you get the picture

it's all about accountability. the pro-side have a lot of screwups on the roster.

[protege]

It's Cap, Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry, Iron Man.


As of now, it is 3-3. Cap, Wolverine and Cage are anti, Stark, Ms Marvel and Spidey are pro. Spider-Woman, Ronin and Sentry are presently unconfirmed, although I believe SW has been indicated to be anti.
It's interesting; Everybody's making a big deal about Spider MAN switching sides, but what about Spider WOMAN? if she joins Cap's side, she's pretty much blown her deal with SHIELD and possibly Hydra. But if Hydra forces her back to the pro side, how will Tony feel about her? Will he even want her on his team?

[Nate Palm]

To put it simply, no, he did not.

Priest's Falcon might be closer to Bendis' dialogue than, say, Englehart's Falcon, but no previous Falcon (heck, not even Bendis' Falcon in Avengers Disassembled) has spoke anywhere close to this style of dialogue.


Dude I remember Preist's Falcon dialogue being like this issues BMB lines. Didn't Sam yell something like 'NEVER touch a black man's remote' in one of the Cap/Falcon issues?

[Brian Cronin]

Perhaps.

But, again, that is nowhere near "I'm down, my brotha" or "Ya dig?"

-Brian

[Sean Whitmore]

Dude I remember Preist's Falcon dialogue being like this issues BMB lines. Didn't Sam yell something like 'NEVER touch a black man's remote' in one of the Cap/Falcon issues?


Wasn't he reverting to his "Snap" Wilson persona in that series?

I mean, I read it, but to this day I can barely understand it.


SEAN

[Haunt]

Dude I remember Preist's Falcon dialogue being like this issues BMB lines. Didn't Sam yell something like 'NEVER touch a black man's remote' in one of the Cap/Falcon issues?


he had reverted to the 'Snap Wilson' persona. this was, most likely, due to Wanda (other Avengers were acting funny as well).

[Nate Palm]

Wasn't he reverting to his "Snap" Wilson persona in that series?

I mean, I read it, but to this day I can barely understand it.


SEAN

Ah! Indeed, I had forgotten about that. He was reverting back to 'Snap' because of Wanda.

[Den]

not necessarily. many of the heroes who have sided with Tony have also, at one time or another, had to own up publicly to their mistakes.

I can see your point, but I confess it still doesn't make sense to me. Many of these heroes have also spoken against government control over heroes in the past IIRC. Some are well aware of rogue government agents that the authorities couldn't control, and I would have thought they'd have more of a 'get your own house in order first' atittude towards SHIELD and the like.

[Tommy]

Here are my thoughts...

Well in Captain Amer---er New Avengers 21 Captain America has something of a nervous break down. He spends something like two pages incoherently bitching about how much the American people suck when SHEILD or something breaks in. Well Captain America continues his policy of using people as human shields and so gets two people shot in the head before escaping.

Now we move on to the Falcon stumbling upon him passed out in some safe house. Which moves on from the "American People suck" portion to the "Tony Stark is a total douche" portion. Well Falcon makes a good point that all the villains from the raft are still out there and the heroes are too busy fighting each other to round them up. Well too bad for the Falcon because the New Avengers went after precisely four of those people (Electro, Sauron, Silver Samurai, and the Wrecker) and had hard battles with all of them. Note that those are not exactly the cream of the villain crop. Compared to Dr. Doom and Molecule Man (who the Falcon used as examples) those are grade Z. And the New Avengers never seemed to be in much of a rush to even get to the grade A villains, so why should we be concerned at all that they are on the loose.

Okay now we get to the more ******** on Hank Pym portion of our story. Because you can never do that too much. Captain America in an attempt to recruit Hank says " [about the Avengers] we worked for no one but those who needed us." Which is of course total bull****. And Hank knows since he was there. The Avengers have worked for the U.S. government since almost their inception. I remember an issue staring Captain America, The Falcon, and Hank Pym where Peter Gyrich dictated the Avengers roster.

Now we get to the fight. Captain America vs. Hank Pym. This seems all vaguely familiar, possibly because the same fight (only much more entertaining) happened in the Ultimates? Well they fight and Captain America and the Falcon get away. All in all a really sucky issue even by New Avengers standards.

And I still have no clue about what Captain America hopes to accomplish with this little insurrection of his. Are they just going to hide out for the next forty years? Go some place else, because as far as my knowledge of the MU goes Super Hero Registration is already a fact in all of the major countries. Just what is he planning to accomplish?

[Ravenheart]

The story this issue wasn't bad.The same can't be said for the art.I know there are alot of Chaykin fans here but his artwork does nothing for me at all.

[StoneGold]

To put it simply, no, he did not.


You're right, but only in that Priest had him talking even more huster-esque. Sam wasn't exactly pulling out the 9s with Cap, like he was in CAF.

[Nate Palm]

Go some place else, because as far as my knowledge of the MU goes Super Hero Registration is already a fact in all of the major countries.

Indeed. In fact Canada passed one many years ago.


Just what is he planning to accomplish?

Staying free?

[Tommy]

Staying free?
Well that is debatable. Fugitives usually don't travel with more than one person. Cap dragging around five adults (last time I counted) and another five teenagers across the country hiding from the law is not really a workable plan.

[Alex Dragon]

I liked the issue. It was one of those issues was really supposed to be one piece of the overall puzzle and just show a part of the overall story from Cap's perspective. I thought the issue had some great moments.

As far as Chaykin's art goes, he's never really been a superhero artist and probably never will be but he is a great artist. His strengths are more suited for more "realistic" non-costume type stories. I liked seeing his art in this issue because it was an interesting change of pace but it's not the kind of art I'd like to see on this book on a regular basis. I wish there had been some women for him to draw though.

Falcon's dialogue wasn't as big a deal as most of you are making it out to be. Sam has had to deal with people from the streets as well as people in the boardrooms he can switch the street talk on or off as needed. Oprah does it all the time. Lots of blacks and rappers play up the "street talk' on award shows and such but when they're dealing with executives and such or just being themselves the street talk goes away. I think Falcon was being more "street" because it better reflected his feelings. More importantly for Bendis it more fun and interesting to write.

[Doom Hammer]

I don't understand all the complaints about this issue, really.

I mean, the Falcon dialogue thing? Okay, that kind of sucked. But aside from that...

New Avengers: Disassembled is a series of self-contained issues focusing on the individual Avenger's reaction to the Super-Human Registration Act. What did you expect?

To me, Cap was perfectly in character. People comment he wasn't patriotic enough, but Cap's been disillusioned in the past. I think his run as Nomad and the last issue of Daredevil: Born Again show this about his character, and the latter was really echoed in this issue. He feels betrayed, and disappointed both in himself and the country that he has come to be in the situation he's in.

This kind of thing is where Bendis shines. He focused on one character, he got a lot of inner-monologue. This is what Bendis does best, and he does it really well. It makes me miss his Daredevil.

Overall, I like how Captain America is handling the whole thing. His back's against the wall, he's disillusioned and even bitter, and yet he still continues to fight what he's sure is the good fight. Plus we got some cool moments with Giant-Man. I think it's funny that people will criticize Bendis of copying the Ultimates, even though the only thing similar about the two fights are the characters. The context, the length, the purpose, and the characters' attitudes were different.

This is my favorite issue of the New Avengers thus far. I'm looking forward to the rest of this arc.

[Doom Hammer]

Well that is debatable. Fugitives usually don't travel with more than one person. Cap dragging around five adults (last time I counted) and another five teenagers across the country hiding from the law is not really a workable plan.

He's not traveling in Civil War. They have a base of operations. And he's not exactly your standard fugitive, anyway. He's a super-hero with an agenda. He's doing more than just running.

[Simon Garth]

The story was OK (though some of Falcon's dialogue was a bit Rent-a-hood), but the art was just dire - I like Chaykin's work, but this was the worst job I've seen from him in about 30 years - terrible, amateurish stuff.

[jpk]

Not a good issue. Art and dialogue were rough, almost first-draft-like.

Hope to see some major improvements on both fronts in issue 22.

[Tony Starkz]

Great issue all around.Loved Chaykin's art and the confrontation with Pym.

[mrc1214]

I thought the issue was good. Nothing amazing I liked how we got Captain Americas point of view more. I wonder how Pyms nose feels too. :)

[Haunt]

I thought the issue was good. Nothing amazing I liked how we got Captain Americas point of view more. I wonder how Pyms nose feels too. :)

probably doesn't hurt as much as Al Kraven calling him fat in the Beyond series.

[djshalope]

But, as for his writing on this one, it was pretty good. Now, Falcon's dialogue? Terrible. Someone who once ran for senator don't talk like no homie from the street. Apparently Bendis has never met a real life black person, so he writes em all as "homies from the street."

there's something you might not be aware of called coding. just because someone may communicate in a more street style doesn't mean they are not able to communicate in a professional manner when they want to. it would only make sense that because sam is with his best friend (cap), he would speak in a more comfortable and conversational slang. especially because he's angry. conversely, it would only make sense that when he runs for senator he communicates more professionally and less street. this is very common. for many people switching between the two styles of speech is an everyday activity. it has nothing to do with "knowing" black people. in fact, given the circumstances sam operates under in this issue, one could argue that bendis "knows" his character far greater than he is being given credit for.

[unkiedev]

I was talking with a friend about this book the other night. He picked up Avengers #20 for the Magneto story, then figured he'd get #21 the next week. He wasn't impressed...but then he reads X-BOOKs. :eek: SLAM!

Almost every issue of New Avenger's ends with a crazy big reveal. That's half the fun. #21 has nothing new, just a short story with Cap and Falcon. Sure they're great, but I want more. The only information we get is Cap has gone rogue and Sam is coming with him. Now they're trying to get Luke on board. Well, I've been reading all the other Civil war books, so none of this is new.

Eh. I'm a fan of Bendis and the New Avengers, so I'll keep on reading. This was the first issue of N.A. I felt fell flat.

[Leebenhouse]

Look, the point is, Falcon NEVER talked like that before. ANYWHERE. Sure he talked a lil crazy in the Cap and Falcon series, but that was because of the whole Disassembled thing. I even have the Falcon mini series from the 1980s, his closest thing to a solo, and he NEVER TALKED LIKE AN F-in homie. Look, I'm not some mindless fanboy that's going to worship anything my favorite writer does. Sure, Bendis did a decent job on the rest of this issue, but his dialogue of the Falcon was CRAP. Falcon doesn't "code"

[Haunt]

there's something you might not be aware of called coding. just because someone may communicate in a more street style doesn't mean they are not able to communicate in a professional manner when they want to. it would only make sense that because sam is with his best friend (cap), he would speak in a more comfortable and conversational slang.

is that sort of like being on the down low because i hope that's not what Sam and Cap are doing.

[Kirk G]

I was talking with a friend about this book the other night. He picked up Avengers #20 for the Magneto story, then figured he'd get #21 the next week. He wasn't impressed...but then he reads X-BOOKs. :eek: SLAM!

Almost every issue of New Avenger's ends with a crazy big reveal. That's half the fun. #21 has nothing new, just a short story with Cap and Falcon. Sure they're great, but I want more. The only information we get is Cap has gone rogue and Sam is coming with him. Now they're trying to get Luke on board. Well, I've been reading all the other Civil war books, so none of this is new.

Eh. I'm a fan of Bendis and the New Avengers, so I'll keep on reading. This was the first issue of N.A. I felt fell flat.

Well, maybe it wasn't a BIG reveal, but I felt there were at least two in this issue. First, Cap wakes up somewhere he doesn't recall, and then confirms that the man who is leaning over him is really the Falcon he knows and trusts.
and Second, we learn that <spoil> Cap turns to Hank for help in a crisis, and that Hank has already agreed to delay them until Shield arrives. And that he's not all that thrilled with being on their team. (Switching sides later??? Sleeper agent?)

[Red State Cap]

there's something you might not be aware of called coding.
Oh, that's what it's called. Sorry, back in my day we called it "jive."
http://www.trincoll.edu/zines/tj/tj01.30.97/images/test.au
http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/jive.wav

RSC

[unkiedev]

Well, maybe it wasn't a BIG reveal, but I felt there were at least two in this issue. First, Cap wakes up somewhere he doesn't recall, and then confirms that the man who is leaning over him is really the Falcon he knows and trusts.
and Second, we learn that <spoil> Cap turns to Hank for help in a crisis, and that Hank has already agreed to delay them until Shield arrives. And that he's not all that thrilled with being on their team. (Switching sides later??? Sleeper agent?)
Eh. We all know from Civil War #2 that Hank is working with Reed and Tony. and Cap and Falcon talking about identity is not a reveal, it's just story. I"m not trying to shake your tree on this one, Kirk G., I just don't think there were any revelations.

[Brandon McKinnis]

I really wasn't all that bothered by the Falcon's dialogue, it was a few select bits, maybe I missed something, but it wasn't like they ripped the dialogue from Kane out of Menace 2 Society and said... "We present The Falcon."

[Kirk G]

You may be right. I hadn't noticed that. Still, reading just one issue at a time as it comes out, I still liked the sudden blocking of the exit... I wasn't that upset with the issue...

but I agree that the pacing and feel of the series has changed.
(I even noticed it in the accellerate pace of the end of the Michael/Collective/Xorn/Zorn arc also....)

[Mia]

I hated the issue. The more CW continues. The more I loose respect for Captain America. The man is acting as if he is above the law. And his whole internal monologue in this issue sounded as if he is contemptuous of the American people and that he knows better. Very sad reduction of the character in my eyes.

[Tommy]

To me, Cap was perfectly in character. People comment he wasn't patriotic enough, but Cap's been disillusioned in the past.
Really? Maybe I am not recalling his solo series, but I don't remember Cap using people as human shields much (at all) in the Avengers. Let alone getting said human shields shot in the head.

And then there is his whole "American's suck!" rant which I thought was really out of character. Cap might not like the government, but I don't recall him actively insulting the American people before.

[unkiedev]

I hated the issue. The more CW continues. The more I loose respect for Captain America. The man is acting as if he is above the law. And his whole internal monologue in this issue sounded as if he is contemptuous of the American people and that he knows better. Very sad reduction of the character in my eyes.
Whoa whoa whoa?! Losing respect for Captain America? The man is keeping it real. In Civil War the Governemnt is trying to control and regulate all paranormals which, first off, isn't ever going to work. Secondly, the Government does not have that authority or power. Captain America represents an Idea, and that idea is above the law.

Make mine Cap!

[Tommy]

In Civil War the Governemnt is trying to control and regulate all paranormals which, first off, isn't ever going to work.
It works for Canada...

[djshalope]

is that sort of like being on the down low because i hope that's not what Sam and Cap are doing.

hmmmm they are awfully tight, now that you mention it...

[Tommy]

hmmmm they are awfully tight, now that you mention it...
...Tight... must resist joke.... must not make gay joke...

One wont be tight for long...

DAMN!

[djshalope]

...Tight... must resist joke.... must not make gay joke...

One wont be tight for long...

DAMN!

why do you think sam was swearing so much? poor guy must have been in some terrible pain. two words "brokeback avengers"...

[Mia]

Whoa whoa whoa?! Losing respect for Captain America? The man is keeping it real. In Civil War the Governemnt is trying to control and regulate all paranormals which, first off, isn't ever going to work. Secondly, the Government does not have that authority or power. Captain America represents an Idea, and that idea is above the law.

Make mine Cap!


No they aren't. The goverment is simply requiring that all superheroes or people who act as superheroes register and abide by government regulations. So that there are no more messes and civilian casualties.


Those who don't like it or don't agree with the law. Can simply stop being superheroes. They can quit. Not very difficult. However this does not seem to be enough for Captain America. He seems to think that he is should do as he please and he should be above the law. And more to the point seems to have contempt and disdain for the American people as a whole. The man is not a hero. He is a self absorbed prima donna.

[mrc1214]

No they aren't. The goverment is simply requiring that all superheroes or people who act as superheroes register and abide by government regulations. So that there are no more messes and civilian casualties.


Those who don't like it or don't agree with the law. Can simply stop being superheroes. They can quit. Not very difficult. However this does not seem to be enough for Captain America. He seems to think that he is should do as he please and he should be above the law. And more to the point seems to have contempt and disdain for the American people as a whole. The man is not a hero. He is a self absorbed prima donna.


I disagree with you. He shouldnt have to answer to anybody. And how would there be no more civilian casualties??? Can someone please answer this??? Heres a scenario the FF is fighting Dr. Doom and a bunch of Doombots. There stuff flying everywhere. So what you mean to tell me is that because the heroes are answering to SHIELD this is going to stop and no one will get hurt??? That makes no sense. Not to mention am i the only one who believes comics will stink if everyone is answering to SHIELD. I dont have a problem with SHIELD but i dont want to see them in every comic. And it bothers none of you pro-reg people the way Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Hank Pym are going about stopping them. They built a prison just to keep people who they have fought with in. The whole pro-reg side are crooked and ruthless. Thats why in the next few issues youll see some heroes jumping over to the anti-reg side.

[Mia]

I disagree with you. He shouldnt have to answer to anybody..

So you think that Captain America should be above the law, which applies everyone else then?


IAnd how would there be no more civilian casualties??? Can someone please answer this??? Heres a scenario the FF is fighting Dr. Doom and a bunch of Doombots. There stuff flying everywhere. So what you mean to tell me is that because the heroes are answering to SHIELD this is going to stop and no one will get hurt??? That makes no sense...

Of course there will be casualties. Just the same way that there are traffic laws, yet there are still car accidents. Yet things would be much much worse if there were no traffic laws. It's the same thing with people who want to act as superheroes they need to follow regulations, so that harm will be minimized.






Not to mention am i the only one who believes comics will stink if everyone is answering to SHIELD. I dont have a problem with SHIELD but i dont want to see them in every comic. And it bothers none of you pro-reg people the way Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Hank Pym are going about stopping them. They built a prison just to keep people who they have fought with in. The whole pro-reg side are crooked and ruthless. Thats why in the next few issues youll see some heroes jumping over to the anti-reg side.

They are building a prison for people who are breaking the law. That's what prisons are for. It doesn't matter whether or not it's people they faugh with. These people are breaking the law. Like I mentioned in my post above. If the registration law bothers them so much. Then they can simply hang up their capes and tights and stop being superheroes. No one is forcing them to go along with the laws. If they don't like it they can quit. Unfortunelty there are those who think that the law should not apply to them.

And right now I have more sympathy for Tony Stark. At least Stark isn't pushing people out onto on comming traffic and making condescending remarks about the American people the way that Captain America is doing.

[mrc1214]

So you think that Captain America should be above the law, which applies everyone else then?


Of course there will be casualties. Just the same way that there are traffic laws, yet there are still car accidents. Yet things would be much much worse if there were no traffic laws. It's the same thing with people who want to act as superheroes they need to follow regulations, so that harm will be minimized.
They are building a prison for people who are breaking the law. That's what prisons are for. It doesn't matter whether or not it's people they faugh with. These people are breaking the law. Like I mentioned in my post above. If the registration law bothers them so much. Then they can simply hang up their capes and tights and stop being superheroes. No one is forcing them to go along with the laws. If they don't like it they can quit. Unfortunelty there are those who think that the law should not apply to them.

And right now I have more sympathy for Tony Stark. At least Stark isn't pushing people out onto on comming traffic and making condescending remarks about the American people the way that Captain America is doing.

No i dont think he should be above the law but I also dont think he should have to answer to them. And i think that there will be at least one or two who do just give up being a hero. As far a casualties go it can be minimized yea, but think about what will happen once some heroes enemies find out who they are. Theyll go right after there families. Take Peter Parker now he has to be alert all the time. So thats right??? That the heroes have to now be on guard 24/7. I mean that can be solved maybe guards can be posted at their homes but still a guard is going to stop a big villian i doubt it. And not to mention that the villians will go right after there families. I really dont see a resolve no matter what side wins.

[unkiedev]

So you think that Captain America should be above the law, which applies everyone else then?
Cap is already registered with the Government. He doesn't think he's above the law, he thinks THIS SPECIFIC law is unamerican and unconstitutional.

Look, the reason the Marvel Universe has guys like CAp is because there are real and deadly threats that plague it every month. I remember when Waid relaunched Cap in...I dunno, 99' maybe, the plot was Key members of the US government had been replaced by Skrulls.

For all we know this "registration act" can just be the ploy of some supervillian pulling the strings from behind the scenes. We HAVE guys like Captain America to fight for our rights and protection ABOVE and BEYOND our capacity to do so, including the law. Sometimes citizens have to be protected from the Government.

We're talking about people who have saved the Universe time and time again. They have earned the right to their privacy.

In OUR world if there were people running around with the ability to blow up MOuntains the government would be very concerned...we're concerned right now about North Korea, but is the solution to pass laws telling North Korea what to do? Norht Korea will do what it wants.

And right now I have more sympathy for Tony Stark. At least Stark isn't pushing people out onto on comming traffic and making condescending remarks about the American people the way that Captain America is doing.
No, Tony is manipulating all around him, INCLUDING the government to advance some as yet unknown agenda.

And the Comment earlier about Registration working in Canada is messed up on a fundamental level. Here's your logical jump:

They have all of 6 Super powered beings and they are all good. The Marvel Universe is not such a fleshed out place. Isreal has only one hero in it: Sabre, and SHE'S registered, so registration must be a good thing, right?

[Sean Whitmore]

And the Comment earlier about Registration working in Canada is messed up on a fundamental level. Here's your logical jump:

They have all of 6 Super powered beings


Pfft. Not anymore, they don't. :D


SEAN

[unkiedev]

Pfft. Not anymore, they don't. :D
O.k., they HAD. That's where registration gets you.;)

MIA: Think about it this way. Drinking alcohol was illegal in this country for about 13 years. During that time Americans of all walks of life continued to drink alchohol. For 13 years those people where criminals. Then our nation came to it's senses. People broke the law because they philosophically disagreed with a law they found unconstitutional and constrictive...and they wanted to get lit up, but that's besides the point.

SO, for 13 years they were criminals, then over night they were not. Do you think what they did was wrong because of the leaglity? Do you think they thought they were above the law?

Cap thinks this registration act is like prohibition: A misguided attempt by a moral minority to regulate peoples behavior. Him protesting/fighting against this law does not make him any worse then the MILLIONS of America who drank during Prohibition. All Prohibition did was create MORE CRIME and murder, plus creating a social stigma around something everybody was going to do anyways.

(I know this is getting really political, sorry)

TONY on the other hand is like Hearst: He helped outlaw marujuana so he could shut down Hemp production to switch the American paper industry from parchment made of hemp to paper made of wood pulp, an industry he owned the lion's share of. TONY is playing the angles here and totally expects to gain. How so? Well, he's already been appointed BACK to his position as the Goverment liason to the super heroes, hasn't he. You'll see, it's just the beginning.

[Nate Palm]

It works for Canada...

On that note: has it ever been confirmed that the Canadian Superhuman Registration Act was done away with?

[djshalope]

just going straight from the gut on this issue, this is how i feel:

i will not tell you tony is wrong on the issue of registration. however, i do know for a fact he is not right. his solution is not going to work, and his methods are even worse.

i will not tell you cap is right in his methods. however, i do know he is not wrong. government intervention is not going to solve the concerns that US citizens in the Marvel U expect registration to solve.

going strictly off instinct, i would side anti-registration. this however does not speak for my feelings upon exploring the fine points of the issue.

i think an interesting contrast exists between the views of reed richards (purely with the law) and sam wilson (purely against it). anti-registration stands to jeopardize everything reed has worked towards. reed is nothing if not for his life's work. reed would say that the law exists in the US for a reason, and anything against the US law is simply lacks reason. pro-registration goes against everything the falcon has fought for. he is nothing if not for his principles and values. sam would say that to regulate superheroes would not only ruin their effectiveness but would compromise their standards.

[Doom Hammer]

Really? Maybe I am not recalling his solo series, but I don't remember Cap using people as human shields much (at all) in the Avengers. Let alone getting said human shields shot in the head.


Don't blow it out of proportion, now. Those guys are wearing Stark-designed armor. He's not killing them, he's just incapacitating them. When you're wearing a big shield around Captain America...he gets ideas.:D

It's really not a big point, anyway. They were armored and shooting at him. What would you have him do? Get shot and play nice?

And then there is his whole "American's suck!" rant which I thought was really out of character. Cap might not like the government, but I don't recall him actively insulting the American people before.

Again, you're really blowing it out of proportion, and I don't buy the argument that "since he's never felt that way before, he's incapable of feeling that way". It doesn't make sense. He's disappointed in the American government for making him into a criminal, and he's disappointed in the American people for going along with it. As he said in Born Again, he's loyal to nothing, "except the dream." Right now, he feels that the American public is no longer interested in the American dream. They don't have the same priorities and concerns as he does, and he's learning it now more than ever. Additionally, he's a bit bitter, as he feels unappreciated. It happens.

Perfectly in character. It's just a different angle from which to view him.

[Rivka]

Again, you're really blowing it out of proportion, and I don't buy the argument that "since he's never felt that way before, he's incapable of feeling that way". It doesn't make sense. He's disappointed in the American government for making him into a criminal, and he's disappointed in the American people for going along with it. As he said in Born Again, he's loyal to nothing, "except the dream." Right now, he feels that the American public is no longer interested in the American dream. They don't have the same priorities and concerns as he does, and he's learning it now more than ever. Additionally, he's a bit bitter, as he feels unappreciated. It happens.

I agree.

Saw that special last night on the History Channel, about super heroes; Stan Lee described how he and Jack Kirby decided to portray Captain America when they brought him back in the 1960s -- as a man who felt alienated, "unappreciated," out of step with the times. Like a good many World War II vets of the era.

And the "American Reality" has often failed to live up to the "American dream" or the "American ideal" that has captivated people around the world for 230 years. This is a valid issue for Captain America to ponder. During his youth, during the Great Depression, the ideal and the reality couldn't have been farther apart. But once the US entered the Second World War, everything seemed to come together. The ideals and the reality seemed like one -- the Americans were the good guys, fighting bonafide evil. The depression was over. The life of Average Americans began to improve dramatically. And for those whom the advances of post-war civilization were leaving behind due to spontaneous and institutionalized racism, there was a renewed will to fight back -- and the Civil Rights Movement blossomed. It actually seemed that -- for the first time I might add -- the promises of the "American Dream" the ideal described in the Declaration of Independence -- would actually become a reality for more Americans than at any time before. And then ...

How quickly things got turned around. I don't even know myself how and where it started -- probably the seeds were planted during the very years I value as being the height of American Civilization and expression of the American ideal.

Sorry, I'm getting political too. I don't see how we can AVOID getting political when discussing Civil War. (Sort of the whole point, really. Kind of like a present from Millar to America -- get your heads out of your a**'s guys!) And Captain America and Iron Man seem to me to be the perfect point-of-view characters to express this confilct between what should be, and what actually is. Further, it seems to me that Cap is the perfect character to express the disappointment in the apathy of Americans as they watch their ideals become more and more tarnished by a careless, thoughtless acceptance of the "new" reality.

And I don't usually like Millar's work, and I usually don't read CAPTAIN AMERICA, and I wasn't going to read NEW AVENGERS, except after last issue, I got hooked, and I realize that Civil War might be Millar's greatest work, and Bendis has done an excellent job providing depth in this essential part of the Civil War concept. (The Avengers part, that is.)

Anyway, my understanding of Captain America for the last few years, has been that he's been increasingly dismayed and disappointed by how much the gap between the "American reality" and the "American Dream" has widened. The Registration issue, in Marvel Universe America, is a kind of last straw for him, I would imagine. I could be wrong. I haven't read the book since Waid's second run.

[Brandon McKinnis]

I agree.

Saw that special last night on the History Channel, about super heroes; Stan Lee described how he and Jack Kirby decided to portray Captain America when they brought him back in the 1960s -- as a man who felt alienated, "unappreciated," out of step with the times. Like a good many World War II vets of the era.

And the "American Reality" has often failed to live up to the "American dream" or the "American ideal" that has captivated people around the world for 230 years. This is a valid issue for Captain America to ponder. During his youth, during the Great Depression, the ideal and the reality couldn't have been farther apart. But once the US entered the Second World War, everything seemed to come together. The ideals and the reality seemed like one -- the Americans were the good guys, fighting bonafide evil. The depression was over. The life of Average Americans began to improve dramatically. And for those whom the advances of post-war civilization were leaving behind due to spontaneous and institutionalized racism, there was a renewed will to fight back -- and the Civil Rights Movement blossomed. It actually seemed that -- for the first time I might add -- the promises of the "American Dream" the ideal described in the Declaration of Independence -- would actually become a reality for more Americans than at any time before. And then ...

How quickly things got turned around. I don't even know myself how and where it started -- probably the seeds were planted during the very years I value as being the height of American Civilization and expression of the American ideal.

Sorry, I'm getting political too. I don't see how we can AVOID getting political when discussing Civil War. (Sort of the whole point, really. Kind of like a present from Millar to America -- get your heads out of your a**'s guys!) And Captain America and Iron Man seem to me to be the perfect point-of-view characters to express this confilct between what should be, and what actually is. Further, it seems to me that Cap is the perfect character to express the disappointment in the apathy of Americans as they watch their ideals become more and more tarnished by a careless, thoughtless acceptance of the "new" reality.

And I don't usually like Millar's work, and I usually don't read CAPTAIN AMERICA, and I wasn't going to read NEW AVENGERS, except after last issue, I got hooked, and I realize that Civil War might be Millar's greatest work, and Bendis has done an excellent job providing depth in this essential part of the Civil War concept. (The Avengers part, that is.)

Anyway, my understanding of Captain America for the last few years, has been that he's been increasingly dismayed and disappointed by how much the gap between the "American reality" and the "American Dream" has widened. The Registration issue, in Marvel Universe America, is a kind of last straw for him, I would imagine. I could be wrong. I haven't read the book since Waid's second run.

Mostly agreed, I think everyone understands both sides points, but it comes down to in a real world situation, for me at least, how I would feel if this civil war was actually happening. Disassembled, Hulk's Rampage, HOM all back to back Plus the secret war and Enemy of The State, things have gotten severely out of hand, something had to be done, I'm typically very liberal and usually all about upholding civil liberty, however due to circumstance, I think there are other ways to resolve this issue than for Cap to lead a rebellion. Maybe I'm confused and not making sense.

[unkiedev]

One thing I do know: They gray line between the Avenger's board and the Civil War Board is only going to get grayer. Fuzzier, too!

-I like what you said, Rivka, about the "American Dream" living up to the "American Reality." Well put. As far as Cap's "Hate Rant" goes, I think the guy is just cranky and blowing off steam. He's allowed, he's 80 years old.

-I was thinking more about folks being upset over Sam's street talk. It made me remember: In Essential Ghost Rider the first 15 issues are the same team: Ploog, Thomas & Mooney (ifn'n I'm not too forgetful) and Then they have a few one off issues, one of them by Byrne.

Byrne suddenly has Johnny Blaze talkin' all cowboy, with lottsa "Howdy Ma'ams," And "Aw Shucks." The other writers always had Johnny SAY he was a cowboy, but Suddenly he drastically switched dialects.

-Point being they're only comic books. No matter how he speaks, Sam is still a great hero and Senetor. I'm real happy to see Cap and Sam back as a trusted team!

[saintsaucey]

I have to say I love this issue. The art threw me at first. Cap on the cover looks terrible. Worse than he does on the cover of ultimates issue. However the stuff inside is somewhat fabulous. Some of it is down right beautiful. I love that Cap is recruiting a team. Cap is gathering a possey I can't wait to see how this series plays out.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Captain America in an attempt to recruit Hank says " [about the Avengers] we worked for no one but those who needed us." Which is of course total bull. And Hank knows since he was there. The Avengers have worked for the U.S. government since almost their inception. I remember an issue staring Captain America, The Falcon, and Hank Pym where Peter Gyrich dictated the Avengers roster.

I think it was more working *with* the government than *for* the government. I'm more familiar with the Avengers's liason being Duane Freeman, and in that case, he didn't force anyone to reveal their identities.

The Avengers have always been able to decide what missions they go on. I think Captain America's point was that the superhero community needs to be self-governed. The US government telling them what to do will keep them from doing what they know needs to be done, and with experienced and intelligent people like Reed Richards and Professor Xavier and whoever else, Cap knows that what they have been doing works.

Captain America respects the government, SHIELD, and The Avengers. He probably sees them like a system of checks and balances, hence why you can't give one too much power over the other.

...but I still don't think Bendis gets Cap.

[Iron-boy]

I didnt like that much the art, but i love the story that they go see every avengers and ask them, why dont they just call them through phone ?

[jackolover]

I think it was more working *with* the government than *for* the government. I'm more familiar with the Avengers's liason being Duane Freeman, and in that case, he didn't force anyone to reveal their identities.

The Avengers have always been able to decide what missions they go on. I think Captain America's point was that the superhero community needs to be self-governed. The US government telling them what to do will keep them from doing what they know needs to be done, and with experienced and intelligent people like Reed Richards and Professor Xavier and whoever else, Cap knows that what they have been doing works.

Captain America respects the government, SHIELD, and The Avengers. He probably sees them like a system of checks and balances, hence why you can't give one too much power over the other.

...but I still don't think Bendis gets Cap.

Bendis' first Cap book. All Cap, and no Avengers. Just Cap and his philosophy.

Falcon has the first incling of anxiety about what comes after. Say the Skrulls attack now, and no ones ready, because they're distracted by running and chasing, then what comes after? That's already been answered with Norman Osborn, and at the time of NA #21 no one would have thought of Osborn in all this.

This wasn't an Avengers book. This was a man on the run. Cap had no friends, no home, the government made him a fugitive. He found a safehouse and a friend in Sam. They tried to find another Avenger, Pym, but Hank already signed, and was on board, with the government. It was a pity that Vanguard Avengers betrayed each other. Pym to Cap and Cap to Pym. They attacked each other, in the heat of the moment, while Cap was a fugitive. It was a low point in Avengers history. That it was a Skrull, not Henry Pym, was not pertinent. Who knew if the real Hank would side with Cap or Tony Stark?

This book felt awkward, and this story unconvincing, because Cap came across as a driven man, who didn't think straight. He looked at the registration as the end of the Avengers, and, the Law, run by Tony Stark, as compromising the freedom to act independantly. It was the first time Bendis wrote Steve Rogers as an individual book, and Bendis seemed to make Steve a compilation of old cliche's from other writers. I really couldn't pin Steves character down. The only thing that came across, was that Steve had just done a bad thing, and he didn't notice, because Bendis put all this hyperbole into his dialogue. The Avengers were forcibly disbanded, because Steve Rogers was marginalised. There was no Avengers, and what was left, was an amalgum of the FF and Avengers, coupled with government SHIELD operatives.