The Outback Era

[flapjaxx]

Hi, I'm a long time reader of X-Men that's just gotten back into the more recent titles very cautiously after enjoying the tpbs of Morrison's run.

I'm trying to complete my set of Claremont's (first) run, and what I lack are most of the issues between 229 (after the latest Essential tpb) and 279 or so. Other than the Visionaries: Jim Lee tpb (which I have), I'm wondering what would be the best way of collecting the stories I lack.

I'm not in any huge hurry, but is there any better way than buying the individual issues? Does anyone know when Essential Vol. 8 would come out? It could be a year for even that, right? Or is there going to be a Visionaries: Marc Silvestri?

Unfortunately that damn Gambit first appearance is among the issues I lack--Has that ever been reprinted?

All I know is that I can get a few of the issues by finally buying the X-Tinction Agenda tpb...

I'd appreciate any recommendations on this. And yes I know that all of these issues are probably not technically "Outback era".

[fishtaco]

X-Men: Earthfall collects Uncanny X-Men #'s 232-234.

X-Men Visionaries: Jim Lee has Uncanny X-Men #248 in it.

Otherwise, no... :(

[Affinity]

Aw, for shame.

It's my favorite era, I'm surprised they didn't collect it yet. It's really really really awesome in its entirety, I love it as the saga it is. Totally unique in art and story...not campy and not action junkified, perfectly blended.

But you've all read THAT post 257239 times.

[spoon_jenkins]

There's an Inferno TPB which reprints Uncanny #239-243, plus the parts of the story from the other X-titles.

[fishtaco]

There's an Inferno TPB which reprints Uncanny #239-243, plus the parts of the story from the other X-titles.Oops. Forgot about that.

Anyway, the next Essential volume is going to be all outback.

[jcp011c]

Also if you can find a copy of X-men Firsts, reprinting first appearances from Wolverine, Rogue, Sinister and Gambit, published in 1996, it does have a reprint of U. X-Men 266. It's how I have my "copy"

Also while not exactly Outback era, U. X-men 270-272 are part of the X-tinction Agenda Trade Paperback.

Also X-Men Mutatations reprints U X-men #256-258 the transformation of Psylocke into her Asian hotness.

[jcp011c]

Double post..internet lag, dammit.

[flapjaxx]

Thanks for the mention of X-Men: Firsts! I'll try to track that down. I KNEW there was something that reprinted that first Gambit--and it'll be good to finally have the first Rogue as well (even though I guess they're adding that to the next printing of Essential Vol. 3(?)).

I forgot about Inferno--I have that tpb too.

I believe I have ALL of the Jim Lee issues, either in original or reprinted format.

Thinking that I'll try to collect the later issues first, since Essential Vol. 8 will take care of the earlier ones. They just better not wait till 2008 to put it out!

Thanks for everyone who posted back. It feels great to read comics again; I took a break in the late '90s for obvious reasons. If anyone knows of any specific online comic shop that has these Uncanny issues for cheap, let me know. I'm stuck in the UK right now (was going to go home this summer, but may not because of airline prices), where these back issues aren't as prevelant...

[Affinity]

Oops. Forgot about that.

Anyway, the next Essential volume is going to be all outback.
That's great news. I will pick that up for sure.

Do the essentials have extra stuff in them? Sketches, interviews?

[mattbib]

Do the essentials have extra stuff in them? Sketches, interviews?They sure don't.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

That's great news. I will pick that up for sure.

Do the essentials have extra stuff in them? Sketches, interviews?

Nope. Just black and white print on Newspaper grade paper. The cheapest way to aquire large chunks of continuity - leagally. So you can't really complain.

[The Lucky One]

Do the essentials have extra stuff in them? Sketches, interviews?

Very, very rarely. The only thing that might qualify is that some of the more recent ones (Werewolf by Night, Moon Knight, etc.) have the character's entry from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe at the end of the Essential. Oh, and I think Essential Tomb of Dracula vol. 3 reprinted some of the unused pages from the final issue. The main focus, though, is as TSID said: to get the issues themselves in your hands as cheaply as possible, so they're pretty bare bones.

-D

[DDM]

I believe the Outback era really begins with the Mutant Massacre & it's aftermath from Uncanny X-Men #210-214 (Psylocke joins in Uncanny X-Men #213; whereas, Dazzler joins in Uncanny X-Men #214). Havok joins in Uncanny X-Men #219. Madelyne Pryor becomes a supporting character in Uncanny X-Men #221-222. Furthermore, Uncanny X-Men Annuals #10-14 are important to the Outback X-Men (Longshot joins in Uncanny X-Men Annual #10). Therefore, I would say find Uncanny X-Men #210-278 & The New Mutants Annual #2(Betsy moves into the Xavier's mansion after Doug & Warlock save her & the New Mutants from Mojo & Spiral).

[tetragene]

"X-Men: Danger Room Battle Archives" has New Mutants Annual #2 (Psylocke moving to Xavier's) and Uncanny X-Men Annual #10 (Longshot joins)

[The Mirrorball Man]

In retrospect, that was really something, wasn't it? Can you imagine the same kind of storyline these days? The X-Men leaving the mansion and hiding in an Indian temple, while Namor, Deadgirl and three new characters join the team?

[flapjaxx]

Namor was on the team at one point?!?! Oh my my my, I will have to collect this stuff sooner rather than later.

I wasn't so concerned with that the exact issues for the Outback era were, just where they were collected.

It is good that someone brought up the Annuals, though, as I might have forgotten to collect them. I've got New Mutants Annual #2, and the one where Longshot joins (I think).

[fishtaco]

I believe the Outback era really begins with the Mutant Massacre & it's aftermath from Uncanny X-Men #210-214 (Psylocke joins in Uncanny X-Men #213; whereas, Dazzler joins in Uncanny X-Men #214). Havok joins in Uncanny X-Men #219. Madelyne Pryor becomes a supporting character in Uncanny X-Men #221-222. Furthermore, Uncanny X-Men Annuals #10-14 are important to the Outback X-Men (Longshot joins in Uncanny X-Men Annual #10). Therefore, I would say find Uncanny X-Men #210-278 & The New Mutants Annual #2(Betsy moves into the Xavier's mansion after Doug & Warlock save her & the New Mutants from Mojo & Spiral).Well...the tone gets darker, that's for sure, but I can't really see it as part of the Outback era because they aren't even in the Outback yet. The Outback era, in my view, is Uncanny X-Men #'s 229-252, Annuals 12-13. Uncanny X-Men #'s 253-272, Annual 14 is the Wilderness Era. It doesn't get much better than that, if you ask me.

[Matthew K.]

I'm trying to complete my set of Claremont's (first) run, and what I lack are most of the issues between 229 (after the latest Essential tpb) and 279 or so. Other than the Visionaries: Jim Lee tpb (which I have), I'm wondering what would be the best way of collecting the stories I lack.

I'm not in any huge hurry, but is there any better way than buying the individual issues? Does anyone know when Essential Vol. 8 would come out? It could be a year for even that, right? Or is there going to be a Visionaries: Marc Silvestri?

Buy the 40 Years of X-Men DVD --- get all issues from #1 to #461 for under $50$. In color! Not a bad deal if you ask me!!

http://talesofwonder.com/product-exec/product_id/37198/sc/21,35,45/pn/40+Years+of+X-Men+DVD-ROM


I was at the comic store 2 weeks ago looking through on sale back issues, but I couldn't force myself to buy any casue I'm holding out for the DVD.

[The Lucky One]

Namor was on the team at one point?!?! Oh my my my, I will have to collect this stuff sooner rather than later.

No, he wasn't... I think Mirrorball was making a comparison, saying that the X-Men losing half their team (Shadowcat, Colossus, Nightcrawler) and taking on Longshot, Dazzler, and Psylocke in a stolen Australian base would be like the X-Men today taking over an Indian temple and taking on Namor and Dead Girl as new members while half the old team left. As in, it would be something that would really surprise you to see happen, a very risky manuever from a writing standpoint.

-D

[DDM]

Well...the tone gets darker, that's for sure, but I can't really see it as part of the Outback era because they aren't even in the Outback yet. The Outback era, in my view, is Uncanny X-Men #'s 229-252, Annuals 12-13. Uncanny X-Men #'s 253-272, Annual 14 is the Wilderness Era. It doesn't get much better than that, if you ask me.

Yes, the Outback era begins in Uncanny X-Men #229, but the elements actually begins way back in Uncanny X-Men #185-188 which culminated in Uncanny X-Men #225-227 in which Forge fulfills his destiny to close the rift to keep the Adversary imprinsoned for another age. Inbetween certain elements fall into place:


Uncanny X-Men Annual #10: Longshot joins the team. Mojo reveals to the readers that Betsy's bionic eyes are cameras.
Uncanny X-Men #210: Malice possesses Dazzler, Tommy leads the Morlocks to the Alley in NYC. Rachel Summers, Phoenix II, is nowhere to be found.
Uncanny X-Men #211: Shadowcat, Nightcrawler (still recovering from his injuries from Nimrod), & Colossus are critically injured with the X-Men's first encounter with the Marauders. Most of the Morlocks are slain.
Uncanny X-Men #212: Sabretooth reveals the Marauders' leader, Mr. Sinister. Wolverine saves Healer just before a plasma wave consumes the Alley.
Uncanny X-Men #213: Psylocke joins the X-Men.
Uncanny X-Men #214: Malice attacks the other X-Men by possessing them. Dazzler joins the X-Men.
Uncanny X-Men #215-216: Wolverine & Storm regroup to redefine the X-Men's purpose.
Uncanny X-Men #217-218: Longshot, Psylocke, Dazzler, & Rogue vs the Juggernaut. The remaining Morlocks stay on Muir Island. Callisto becomes Moira MacTaggerts unofficial bodyguard.
Uncanny X-Men #219: Havok joins the X-Men; Polaris, possessed by Malice, joins the Marauders.
Uncanny X-Men #220: Storm tries to find Forge with no luck. Naze, the Adversary in disguise, encourages Storm to go on a Vision Quest.
Uncanny X-Men #221-222: X-Men vs Marauders Round 2, Madelyne Pryor becomes a supporting character.
Uncanny X-Men #223-224: Lead up to the X-Men's encounter with the Adversary.
Uncanny X-Men #224-225: X-Men vs Freedom Force, Colossus reunites with the X-Men, the Adversary begins to manipulate space & time as past, present, & future collide.
Uncanny X-Men #227: Storm reunites with the X-Men with her powers. Forge sacrifices the X-Men to safeguard reality from the Adversary. Nightcrawler wakes from his coma in time for Excalibur Special Edition #1.


I still hold the Outback era really starts with Uncanny X-Men Annual #10, Uncanny X-Men #210 & the Mutant Massacre serving as the catalyst.

[Matthew K.]

Yes, the Outback era begins in Uncanny X-Men #229, but the elements actually begins way back in Uncanny X-Men #185-188 which culminated in Uncanny X-Men #225-227 in which Forge fulfills his destiny to close the rift to keep the Adversary imprinsoned for another age. Inbetween certain elements fall into place:


Uncanny X-Men Annual #10: Longshot joins the team. Mojo reveals to the readers that Betsy's bionic eyes are cameras.
Uncanny X-Men #210: Malice possesses Dazzler, Tommy leads the Morlocks to the Alley in NYC. Rachel Summers, Phoenix II, is nowhere to be found.
Uncanny X-Men #211: Shadowcat, Nightcrawler (still recovering from his injuries from Nimrod), & Colossus are critically injured with the X-Men's first encounter with the Marauders. Most of the Morlocks are slain.
Uncanny X-Men #212: Sabretooth reveals the Marauders' leader, Mr. Sinister. Wolverine saves Healer just before a plasma wave consumes the Alley.
Uncanny X-Men #213: Psylocke joins the X-Men.
Uncanny X-Men #214: Malice attacks the other X-Men by possessing them. Dazzler joins the X-Men.
Uncanny X-Men #215-216: Wolverine & Storm regroup to redefine the X-Men's purpose.
Uncanny X-Men #217-218: Longshot, Psylocke, Dazzler, & Rogue vs the Juggernaut. The remaining Morlocks stay on Muir Island. Callisto becomes Moira MacTaggerts unofficial bodyguard.
Uncanny X-Men #219: Havok joins the X-Men; Polaris, possessed by Malice, joins the Marauders.
Uncanny X-Men #220: Storm tries to find Forge with no luck. Naze, the Adversary in disguise, encourages Storm to go on a Vision Quest.
Uncanny X-Men #221-222: X-Men vs Marauders Round 2, Madelyne Pryor becomes a supporting character.
Uncanny X-Men #223-224: Lead up to the X-Men's encounter with the Adversary.
Uncanny X-Men #224-225: X-Men vs Freedom Force, Colossus reunites with the X-Men, the Adversary begins to manipulate space & time as past, present, & future collide.
Uncanny X-Men #227: Storm reunites with the X-Men with her powers. Forge sacrifices the X-Men to safeguard reality from the Adversary. Nightcrawler wakes from his coma in time for Excalibur Special Edition #1.


I still hold the Outback era really starts with Uncanny X-Men Annual #10, Uncanny X-Men #210 & the Mutant Massacre serving as the catalyst.

DDM functions as the board's lil' Cerebro. I'm tellin' ya you should really put in that application to Xavier's now that Cerebro is offline & Danger is destroyed the place could use you

[david r]

I agree with DDM. The "era of change" for the X-Men began before the Outback era. I'd actually say it began with Uncanny X-Men #200 and Charles Xavier's departure.

Chris Claremont later said the whole point of the Uncanny 200s was to show the X-Men WITHOUT Xavier around to guide them. Could they do it on their own? If you think about the 200s, it was all about Storm guiding the team and them having to make the decisions for themselves. (Interestingly enough, they often made BAD decisions and paid dearly for them.)

[flapjaxx]

I never would have thought the "Outback Era" could be defined as anything other than those issues in which the X-Men were based out of Australia!

Anyway, yes, I can see all of your points about the "darker" tone beginning issues before that, even years before that.

I think you could push it back further, to around issue #175 and the "From the Ashes" arc, which is my favorite X-Men storyline. I always thought the RE-emergence of Phoenix, in the form of M. Pryor, and the RE-emergence of Mastermind, brought with it just a sense of gravity and weight to the title that never left. Around the same six months or so, Storm shaves to a mohawk and Wolverine loses a potential wife. Wolverine starts talking less a hothead and more like an old man. The characters have already "been through the storm" of the Dark Phoenix Saga and have been disillusioned enough not to even be shocked by newfound disappointment. Cyclops reaction to all of this is literally to love an illusion, marry her, and leave the X-Men for her (after getting his ass kicked by a powerless Storm).

Then, to me, the early '80s issues with John Romita Jr art were just the coolest years for X-Men ever. I used to think of them the same way I've *read about* people reacting to the Outback Era, of which I only had a handful of issues. A large contributing factor in dropping comics from my life in the late '90s came when X-Men Classic was discontinued: that had basically become my favorite title every month, except for sometimes DC's Essential Vertigo: Swamp Thing (ALSO a reprint title canceled around the same time!).

[david r]

Let's just go ahead and say it: the Outback era actually began with 1963's X-Men #1. Everything up to #229 was just prologue leading up to the Outback era. It's obvious now. :p

[xmanson]

(Interestingly enough, they often made BAD decisions and paid dearly for them.)


Which makes for better stories, of course.

[flapjaxx]

Chris Claremont later said the whole point of the Uncanny 200s was to show the X-Men WITHOUT Xavier around to guide them. Could they do it on their own? If you think about the 200s, it was all about Storm guiding the team and them having to make the decisions for themselves. (Interestingly enough, they often made BAD decisions and paid dearly for them.)

Sort of makes you realize how artistically pathetic it was to force everything to return to the status quo in 1991, doesn't it, with everybody back at the mansion again, Charlie X wheelchair-bound and in charge, Magneto as a out-and-out villain. I guess it was halfway worth it just for the Jim Lee art . . . but did Jim Lee even give a fuck?

I'm sure this has been gone over a million times on this board, though...

[DDM]

Sort of makes you realize how artistically pathetic it was to force everything to return to the status quo in 1991, doesn't it, with everybody back at the mansion again, Charlie X wheelchair-bound and in charge, Magneto as a out-and-out villain. I guess it was halfway worth it just for the Jim Lee art . . . but did Jim Lee even give a fuck?

I'm sure this has been gone over a million times on this board, though...

Actually, former X-Men book editor, Bob Harras, is responsible for the X-Men's return to status quo; Harras also gave Jim Lee more power than writer Chris Claremont. This is the reason Claremont left Uncanny X-Men & X-Men since his voice was not being heard.

Harras is responsible for the current editorial capacity at Marvel now, although Harras is long gone from Marvel itself. Harras has a bad legacy for the X-Men.

[david r]

Sort of makes you realize how artistically pathetic it was to force everything to return to the status quo in 1991, doesn't it, with everybody back at the mansion again, Charlie X wheelchair-bound and in charge, Magneto as a out-and-out villain. I guess it was halfway worth it just for the Jim Lee art . . . but did Jim Lee even give a fuck?


Jim Lee only cared about his career, apparently.

X-Men truly was different back then. It became my favorite title by the late 80s specifically because it was an evolving book. Unlike 99% of the other superheroes, whose lives were always in a "status quo rut", X-Men seemed to be a story that was actually moving forward. New characters, deaths, evolutions, status quo-changes. I loved it for being a book that was constantly surprising and changing gears.

But starting in 1991, it became just like all the other superheroes. Stuck in a "Status Quo Box". And everytime someone does move them forward (Grant Morrison), it is undone and returned back safely in the "Status Quo Box" (see: Decimation.)

[spoon_jenkins]

I never would have thought the "Outback Era" could be defined as anything other than those issues in which the X-Men were based out of Australia!
Yeah, it's kind of pointless to apply the name to anything else, although I can see the discussion of one era sets up another.

I see the issues through #212 as stylistically closer to the issue that preceded them than to the Outback Era. The period between then and #229, to me, is sort of transitional. But #213-219 is really more of a period of flux, while I think #220-227 tended to solidify things for the Outback. Things took a significant leap in the Outback with the new setting, a solidified line-up, and more focused tone from the general one that was developing.

I think #213-219 was kind of helter skelter with all the guest artists and finding roles for the new members. Except for 213 and 218, I think it's relatively weak. To me, it's the weakest period in the 200s until the early/mid 260s.

The issues from 220 to 227 gain focus with Silvestri as the regular artist. I think we also get a sense of what the newbies are going to be like and how the team will gel. It's really good stuff.

[flapjaxx]

Actually, former X-Men book editor, Bob Harras, is responsible for the X-Men's return to status quo; Harras also gave Jim Lee more power than writer Chris Claremont. This is the reason Claremont left Uncanny X-Men & X-Men since his voice was not being heard.

Harras is responsible for the current editorial capacity at Marvel now, although Harras is long gone from Marvel itself. Harras has a bad legacy for the X-Men.

Yeah, I know all of this and expected it to have been more of a tried and tired topic than apparently it is.

I know that Harras gave Lee veto-power over all Claremont scripts, but I think an important part of that story is that LEE NEVER USED IT.

[Darkwave]

I think Mirrorball was making a comparison, saying that the X-Men losing half their team (Shadowcat, Colossus, Nightcrawler) and taking on Longshot, Dazzler, and Psylocke in a stolen Australian base would be like the X-Men today taking over an Indian temple and taking on Namor and Dead Girl as new members while half the old team left. As in, it would be something that would really surprise you to see happen, a very risky manuever from a writing standpoint.

-D

Hm... Kinda like the X-Men taking on Mystique and Sabretooth as new members? ;) Or the X-men taking off into space for an extended storyline? :D

Sorry, forgive me. I'm just feeling wildly optimistic about the new writers and storylines... :)

[david r]

I know that Harras gave Lee veto-power over all Claremont scripts, but I think an important part of that story is that LEE NEVER USED IT.

I'm not sure that Jim Lee never used that veto-power. Claremont did not want to revert Magneto back into "villain", and yet Jim Lee preceded to do just that with the character.

Also, Claremont planned for Wolverine's sickness to continue, yet it was during Jim Lee's period when this plot just mysteriously vanished. Last time it was ever mentioned was UXM #275, and then poof! I'm sure Lee/Bob Harras wanted the "dark Wolverine" idea axed, because they had their own plans for Logan.

I think Jim Lee knew he was on a cash cow with X-Men, and would have liked Claremont to stay as writer. But Jim Lee and Harras had already decided to do their own thing (return to the status quo) and upend all of Claremont's years of development with the X-Men. We are still hashing out the repercussions of those decisions to this day.

[flapjaxx]

^I've been under the impression that it was Harras and Harras alone that was responsible for nixing Claremont's ideas and that Lee had nothing to do with it. Similarly, I think it was Harras's idea to "give Jim Lee his own book".

But if Lee did ask for all this, I'd be really interested to hear about the politics behind it. I've never read an interview with Lee about the 1991 fallout.

[The Lucky One]

Hm... Kinda like the X-Men taking on Mystique and Sabretooth as new members? ;) Or the X-men taking off into space for an extended storyline? :D

Mmm... I see those things more as "X-Factor circa 1999" and "the Brood Saga, Skrull Shi'ar infiltration, Space Phalanx story, and Alan Davis time-travel space dealie" respectively, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful for our new writers, they've both written great things; but the bare-bones concepts themselves for their first storylines (that we've heard about, anyway) aren't enough to have me changing my underoos or anything.

-D

[david r]

Jim Lee played a role in ousting Chris Claremont from X-Men. In the recent book, "Comics Creators on X-Men", Claremont speaks at length on his time with Jim Lee. He calls him "as strong-willed as I was", and that Jim Lee wanted to do the stuff that excited him about comics. Meaning: bring back Magneto and the Sentinels and such. Claremont did not want to do those things. He was already building the books into a major direction, and resisted trailing backwards. Especially by a newbie artist whose very favorite stories were written by Claremont himself!

Bob Harras and Chris Claremont were at loggerheads right from the start. They both had completely opposite views on the X-Men books and the direction/vision for the title. Harras has a more financial point of view, and Claremont had a more creative point of view. Bob Harras used the popularity of Jim Lee to oust Claremont and 17-years of build-up and character development.

[tnklb]

It's funny-- the outback era is the one I remember the best.

My collection starts with the late 100's, they belonged to my aunt who was the one who got me into reading them. She was so pissed after Mutant Massacre, she gave them all to me and i started collecting. I will admit, to this day, the issue where Colossus, Nightcrawler and Kitty are all phased out at once,, and Psylock is introduced always made me feel sad.

I think the outback years got me excited again after a long time of being unsure. But I think I was too young to understand some of the subtlty. When the Siege Perilous stuff happened, I just didn't get it. I was confused, and I quit reading cause it just made no sense. For the record, I was like 13. I think my last official issue in a run was Gambit's introduction in 266. I may have picked up a few more since then, but that was pretty much it.


A few years later I tried tio get back into the X-Men-- but the 90's era had begun and it was just a mess to me. I stayed away until Morrison.

But now, looking back, the Outback years had some pretty cool stuff. I still have most of the single issues.. guess I better dig them up...

[twilight]

Anyway, the next Essential volume is going to be all outback.

I'm looking forward to that.

[flapjaxx]

Props, david r, I didn't know that about Lee. All I remember ever hearing is that he wanted to draw the X-Men in the old-fashioned blue and yellow uniforms (which he did during around 275). And I think I read a few quotes saying that Lee liked the Neal Adams issues, too . . . which I thought were really, really poorly written, but I guess the writing wasn't the point of why those issues are looked back on fondly by most people.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the next Essential tpb. I've looked through the original release dates and see that sometimes it takes Marvel only 6 months between subsequent vols, sometimes 18 months. Vol. 7 just came out like 2 months ago...

[The Mirrorball Man]

No, he wasn't... I think Mirrorball was making a comparison, saying that the X-Men losing half their team (Shadowcat, Colossus, Nightcrawler) and taking on Longshot, Dazzler, and Psylocke in a stolen Australian base would be like the X-Men today taking over an Indian temple and taking on Namor and Dead Girl as new members while half the old team left. As in, it would be something that would really surprise you to see happen, a very risky manuever from a writing standpoint.

-D
Yes, that's it exactly. Thank you for explaining it much more eloquently than I could. ;)

[DDM]

^I've been under the impression that it was Harras and Harras alone that was responsible for nixing Claremont's ideas and that Lee had nothing to do with it. Similarly, I think it was Harras's idea to "give Jim Lee his own book".

But if Lee did ask for all this, I'd be really interested to hear about the politics behind it. I've never read an interview with Lee about the 1991 fallout.

As I said, Bob Harras gave Jim Lee more power over established writer, Chris Claremont. Without Bob Harras giving into Jim Lee's ideas of X-Men, Jim Lee is just another penciler. The reprecussions are still being felt today as the X-Men franchise has been upended, relaunched multiple times without any of Chris Claremont's synergy synchronistic magic he had before...

[Beyond The Beyonder]

{{{I think the outback years got me excited again after a long time of being unsure. But I think I was too young to understand some of the subtlty. When the Siege Perilous stuff happened, I just didn't get it. I was confused, and I quit reading cause it just made no sense. For the record, I was like 13. I think my last official issue in a run was Gambit's introduction in 266. I may have picked up a few more since then, but that was pretty much it.}}}

I started reading not long after Gambit was introduced... just before Claremont left and things went sour, really, but the book was still juicy enough that it compelled me to check out pretty much the entire 200's, and the outback stories are still my favorite pre-Morrison X-Men stories. It is really amazing how far out into the wilderness Claremont took the team, in more ways than one. We basically had a story arc that lasted about 50 issues, for about 30 issues of which there basically was no official X-Men team... I remember Marvel's trading cards one year had an X-Men card and there was almost no one on there that a non-X-Men reader would recognize; it was great! It even had Sunder on it.

So Claremont had 17 years before editorial clamped down on him. And Joe Kelly only had one, and Morrison had 3. I wonder how many they'll give Brubaker. I think he can do a lot of good if they let him. I wonder if they'll have an editorial change any time soon. Mark Pannicia would rock. Matt Idelson if he "switched sides" so to speak. I'm not really AGAINST Marts per se but I'm not terribly impressed either.

[flapjaxx]

We basically had a story arc that lasted about 50 issues, for about 30 issues of which there basically was no official X-Men team...

Yup, that is amazing. Any of the issues that I got in this time period, up to 281, I was always confused as hell and knew I was missing out on a lot because I didn't have the whole story. And the fact that Xavier was missing the whole time...

[DDM]

Yup, that is amazing. Any of the issues that I got in this time period, up to 281, I was always confused as hell and knew I was missing out on a lot because I didn't have the whole story. And the fact that Xavier was missing the whole time...

Xavier was not "missing" exactly; he was is deep Shi'ar space with the Starjammers. Xavier had a chance to return to Earth in The New Mutants #50-51 when the Starjammers rescues Illyana Rasputin, Magik, from being sold into slavery. However, Xavier believes he is needed more as a Starjammer because Magneto has the school in his care. Karma takes control of Magik so she can teleport the New Mutants from Shi'ar space back home, Earth. Xavier believes Illyana would always be there to teleport him home if he was needed.

Xavier may have been hesitant to go back to Earth when he discovered the Marauders killed most of the Morlocks & his original X-Men are "mutant hunters" as X-Factor.

[fishtaco]

So Claremont had 17 years before editorial clamped down on him. And Joe Kelly only had one, and Morrison had 3. I wonder how many they'll give Brubaker. I think he can do a lot of good if they let him. I wonder if they'll have an editorial change any time soon. Mark Pannicia would rock. Matt Idelson if he "switched sides" so to speak. I'm not really AGAINST Marts per se but I'm not terribly impressed either.I think Brubaker will get more creative freedom than Claremont did on his most recent run and Seagle on his run under the iron heel of Harras, but only because he's popular. Claremont's recent books have been low in quality mostly due to editorial interference and muddling his stories. This is the problem when there are twenty different writers writing the same characters at the same time. Brubaker may be able to write almost anything he wants (including killing off any character he wants :mad: ), but I don't expect his run to be good because of the status quo that he is building off of. I don't think any X-writer can write a good run currently because the previous work was bad. I find it to be like building a castle on sand.

[Beyond The Beyonder]

{{{ don't think any X-writer can write a good run currently because the previous work was bad. I find it to be like building a castle on sand.}}}

What about Joe Kelly? The X-books were in ruins when he and Seagle took over. Seagle had too much editorial interference to do much good but Kelly had an amazing year. Those are still some of my favorite Marvel stories ever. Storm, Maggott, Wolvie, Ceclia, Marrow, Beast... Some of the best character-driven interactions the X-books have ever seen.

I wouldn't say the book was in wonderful shape before Morrison took over either.

Even if the recent arcs have been "sand," the X-books are still a solid foundation. I'm excited to see what Bru can do.

[fishtaco]

I think he has a better chance than most because his book will be separated from the others. Being separated from the cluttered mess we have in the X-canon at the moment certainly helps, right?


Anyway, with all these hype events going on in Genosha, Marvel should really reprint Uncanny X-Men #'s 235-239, as well as make another edition of the X-Tinction Agenda trade (this time, hopefully, including ALL of the pages in it). Genosha has totally lost it's meaning, and although change can be good, I hardly ever hear reference to what Genosha once was. Genosha was a big, big deal for the X-Men, and all these new readers should know how it started off.

[david r]

I'm sure Ed Brubaker has had promises of creative freedom BEFORE he takes over the book. Once he's into his run, the editors will clamp down. Even with the X-Men in outer space. This is what happened with Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle. They were promised much, they planned a whole year and a half of cool stuff, and the editors were continually throwing a monkey-wrench into their plans This is what Joe and Steve reported when they quit in 1998 together.

[flapjaxx]

Xavier was not "missing" exactly; he was is deep Shi'ar space with the Starjammers.

Yeah, I know about all this, I meant that he was "missing" from the pages of Uncanny. It's odd to juxtapose this with the feeling of "status quo" that returned in 1991; I was a new reader of X-Men with the Muir Island Saga, and if you told me a few months later, during all the Blue/Gold hype, "You do realize Xavier has appeared more times in these handful of issues that you've read than he did in the previous 50+?" I wouldn't've known what to think. There was just no sense of anything from the previous continuity.

As far as Kelly and Seigle's runs . . . They did absolutely nothing to prevent me from letting my subscriptions run out. I didn't care about Maggot or Cecilia or that other girl mutant with the bones (Marrow?). Just because those stories were "character-driven" doesn't mean I had any interest in the characters. They were weak. Maybe it was "editorial interference", I don't know or care. I loved Seigle's Sandman Mystery Theatre, but when I look back on the last five years of X-Men that I read (1993-1998) the brightest spot for me is Joe Mad's artwork, and as a comics reader I usually care WAAAY more about the writing than the art, so what does that say.

Finally, just curious: I know that the X-Tinction Agenda tpb doesn't include all of the pages of all of the issues. I'm wondering:
1) If pages of the Uncanny issues are missing, since I care about them more than the other series.
2) If I only bought the Uncanny issues separately, do you think I'd be disappointed about not getting the whole story? I've heard that X-Tinction isn't that great anyway, but was its serialization between titles continuitive enough to prevent reading anything other than ALL parts of it?

[david r]

1) I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Marvel deleted the pages that were subplots of Chris Claremont's run. Subplots that DID NOT have anything to do with the core X-Tinction Agenda epic being told in those issues. (If so, you will not miss those pages.)

2) I would say that yes, the X-Tinction Agenda is a bit overlong. They really don't have enough story to fill up 9 issues. But if you only buy the Uncanny issues, you will miss the death of Warlock. And the finale of the entire story, which happened in X-Factor.

My advice, buy the trade paperback. Or get ALL the individual issues. Yes, you really need to read the whole thing to get the entire story. It's not bad, and has many highlights. (The Uncanny issues are definitely the best, though.)

[twilight]

I find it to be like building a castle on sand.

Do you mean like a sand castle?

If a sand castle is given proper love and attention it can stand and flourish.

[Beyond The Beyonder]

{{{As far as Kelly and Seigle's runs . . . They did absolutely nothing to prevent me from letting my subscriptions run out. }}}

About Kelly, we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO those are some of the best X-Men stories ever written.

I wasn't really impressed with Seagle's run either but yes, that was pretty much all because of editorial. Kelly was writing a character-driven book where, even if editorial squashed some of his storylines, his characterization was special enough that the stories were still top notch. Seagle's stories - and I remember talking with him about this at the time - depended very big plot points that editor Mark Powers kept cancelling. He'd have stories that Powers would hand back to him with a week before the deadline and be told to write it and completely change everything. So I agree, his Uncanny run wasn't anything that special (I remember 355 being a pretty cool issue though, with the original X-Men solving a mystery together), even while his other three series - House of Secrets, Alpha Flight, Sandman Mystery Theatre - were knocking out of the park just about every month. But it wasn't really HIS run at all.

Both Kelly and Seagle had a lot of big ideas and they were stellar creators at the top of their game, and they hardly got to use any of them.

[Hombre]

It's my favorite era, I'm surprised they didn't collect it yet. It's really really really awesome in its entirety, I love it as the saga it is. Totally unique in art and story...not campy and not action junkified, perfectly blended.



When you think that it came about some 12 full years after Claremont began scripting the title, the implications in terms of Claremont's artistic legacy and significance to the X-Men are astounding.

[DDM]

Yeah, I know about all this, I meant that he was "missing" from the pages of Uncanny. It's odd to juxtapose this with the feeling of "status quo" that returned in 1991; I was a new reader of X-Men with the Muir Island Saga, and if you told me a few months later, during all the Blue/Gold hype, "You do realize Xavier has appeared more times in these handful of issues that you've read than he did in the previous 50+?" I wouldn't've known what to think. There was just no sense of anything from the previous continuity.

Chris Claremont did plan for Charles Xavier to come back to Earth to confront the Shadow King as shown in Uncanny X-Men #275-277; however, after Xavier's initial encounter with the immortal omnipotent telepath, Xavier himself was meant to lose his powers in the struggle. A second encounter--in which the Shadow King would at least be defeated as the world is on the brink of a race war & Days of Future Past seems to be on the horizon--Xavier dies to safeguard reality from the Shadow King culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300. Magneto, Storm, Cyclops, & Gateway were to take Xavier's place. Eath with different views on the X-Men's role in the world. Chris Claremont wanted to write both Uncanny X-Men & the new X-Men books. But Bob Harras said no to Claremont. Harras also stopped the "dark Wolverine" plotline.

Bob Harras took over Chris Claremont's Shadow King story to recreate X-Factor (to take the place of Freedom Force), & the New Mutants into X-Force. Instead of Xavier dying, he lost the use of his legs again.

If you look carefully, Jim Lee's cover of X-Men #1 (1991) is really X-Men #1 (1963) with all of the X-Men. Jim Lee wanted to backwards; whereas, Chris Claremont wanted to go into an entirely different direction with the X-Men. The X-Men & the readers have paid the price when Bob Harras refused to go into uncharted waters with Uncanny X-Men & X-Men.

Jim Lee left a year later to form Image in 1992.

[Matthew K.]

Chris Claremont did plan for Charles Xavier to come back to Earth to confront the Shadow King as shown in Uncanny X-Men #275-277; however, after Xavier's initial encounter with the immortal omnipotent telepath, Xavier himself was meant to lose his powers in the struggle. A second encounter--in which the Shadow King would at least be defeated as the world is on the brink of a race war & Days of Future Past seems to be on the horizon--Xavier dies to safeguard reality from the Shadow King culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300. Magneto, Storm, Cyclops, & Gateway were to take Xavier's place. Eath with different views on the X-Men's role in the world. Chris Claremont wanted to write both Uncanny X-Men & the new X-Men books. But Bob Harras said no to Claremont. Harras also stopped the "dark Wolverine" plotline.

Bob Harras took over Chris Claremont's Shadow King story to recreate X-Factor (to take the place of Freedom Force), & the New Mutants into X-Force. Instead of Xavier dying, he lost the use of his legs again.

If you look carefully, Jim Lee's cover of X-Men #1 (1991) is really X-Men #1 (1963) with all of the X-Men. Jim Lee wanted to backwards; whereas, Chris Claremont wanted to go into an entirely different direction with the X-Men. The X-Men & the readers have paid the price when Bob Harras refused to go into uncharted waters with Uncanny X-Men & X-Men.

Jim Lee left a year later to form Image in 1992.

CC should What If..? this whole story despite Harras

OR

May be we'll see this version of the X-Men in an alternate timeline on CC's Exiles work

[david r]

however, after Xavier's initial encounter with the immortal omnipotent telepath, Xavier himself was meant to lose his powers in the struggle.

This I have never heard before. Xavier was going to lose his mutant powers in the Muir Island Saga? Interesting here. DDM, what else do you know concerning:

1) Was Magneto going to play a role in the Muir Island Saga? And if so, what?

2) Do you know any of the details concerning Senator Robert Kelly's running for the Presidency? I had heard this was planned for the UXM #290s and the Shadow King was using Kelly as his puppet.

3) What details do you know concerning the "Dark Wolverine Saga"? And do you know it's ultimate outcome?

4) Do you have any idea the details concerning Charles Xavier's death in #300? And how exactly was Gateway going to fill his place?

5) You've posted that the Shadow King had his claws into the Hellfire Club and had possessed Emma Frost, Selene and Sebastian Shaw. Do you know any details on how the SK captured them and what role would they play in the larger Shadow King epic?

[fishtaco]

Chris Claremont did plan for Charles Xavier to come back to Earth to confront the Shadow King as shown in Uncanny X-Men #275-277; however, after Xavier's initial encounter with the immortal omnipotent telepath, Xavier himself was meant to lose his powers in the struggle. A second encounter--in which the Shadow King would at least be defeated as the world is on the brink of a race war & Days of Future Past seems to be on the horizon--Xavier dies to safeguard reality from the Shadow King culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300. Magneto, Storm, Cyclops, & Gateway were to take Xavier's place. Eath with different views on the X-Men's role in the world. Chris Claremont wanted to write both Uncanny X-Men & the new X-Men books. But Bob Harras said no to Claremont. Harras also stopped the "dark Wolverine" plotline.

Bob Harras took over Chris Claremont's Shadow King story to recreate X-Factor (to take the place of Freedom Force), & the New Mutants into X-Force. Instead of Xavier dying, he lost the use of his legs again.

If you look carefully, Jim Lee's cover of X-Men #1 (1991) is really X-Men #1 (1963) with all of the X-Men. Jim Lee wanted to backwards; whereas, Chris Claremont wanted to go into an entirely different direction with the X-Men. The X-Men & the readers have paid the price when Bob Harras refused to go into uncharted waters with Uncanny X-Men & X-Men.

Jim Lee left a year later to form Image in 1992.You summed up the basics of what happened very well. CC should What If..? this whole story despite HarrasYa know, I hate Harras's X-Men and everything after that so much, that I want nothing more than for the entire continuity after Chris left to be scrapped and he woul be set on Uncanny X-Men, Excalibur, and X-Men, while Louise would get X-Factor and New Mutants back, where they can actually tell their stories and make sense.

I keep all of Claremont and Simonson's work that never happened in a journal, where I write it all down, explain it (like DDM just did, kinda), provide quotes from the books and the creators, and all sorts of stuff. It's like 70 pages long. Go check out the "Claremont's Abandoned Plots" thread on www.comixfan.com. Both David R and I post there, and it's a great source of information for all this kind of stuff.

Chris often recycles his plots in his current work, although they can be diluted due to 90's continuity and editorial interference.

[DDM]

1) Was Magneto going to play a role in the Muir Island Saga? And if so, what?

Magneto may have come in at some time to help defeat the Shadow King around Uncanny X-Men #300. The Shadow King is one of the reasons Magneto killed Zaladane in Uncanny X-Men #275 & he helped Rogue by killing "Ms. Marvel" because the "Ms. Marvel" creature was corrupted by the Shadow King in Uncanny X-Men #269/

2) Do you know any of the details concerning Senator Robert Kelly's running for the Presidency? I had heard this was planned for the UXM #290s and the Shadow King was using Kelly as his puppet.

Just shades of Days of Future Past seem to be on the horizon.

3) What details do you know concerning the "Dark Wolverine Saga"? And do you know it's ultimate outcome?

Just what's already been stated here previously.

4) Do you have any idea the details concerning Charles Xavier's death in #300? And how exactly was Gateway going to fill his place?

Xavier was going to lose his telepathy around the Uncanny X-Men #280's, but the Shadow King would not perish. The Shadow King is too powerful at this point. Therefore, Xavier sacrificed his life somehow--maybe his astral essence literally takes the Shadow King to the Otherside or Heaven with the help of the other X-Men, Gateway, & Magneto culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300.

Gateway would be the X-Men's spiritual leader of the X-Men. I don't think he would have direct role as Magneto, Cyclops, & Storm.

5) You've posted that the Shadow King had his claws into the Hellfire Club and had possessed Emma Frost, Selene and Sebastian Shaw. Do you know any details on how the SK captured them and what role would they play in the larger Shadow King epic?

Magneto mentions the Shadow King has infiltrated the Hellfire Club circa Uncanny X-Men #275. You also need to read Excalibur #21-22. The Shadow King is the true source of evil for the Hellfire Club. The Lords Cardinal is really pawns of the Shadow King, although they are not aware they are his puppets.

[xmanson]

Magneto mentions the Shadow King has infiltrated the Hellfire Club circa Uncanny X-Men #275. You also need to read Excalibur #21-22. The Shadow King is the true source of evil for the Hellfire Club. The Lords Cardinal is really pawns of the Shadow King, although they are not aware they are his puppets.

The Excalibur thing is an alternate reality, it doesn't mean it's the same in 616.

And I'm really glad that's the case anf if that was the plan for 616, Well, it's good Claremont didn't have a chance to use the plot. I'd rather have the HC with motivations of their own that the SK beig behind it all.

[DDM]

The Excalibur thing is an alternate reality, it doesn't mean it's the same in 616.

And I'm really glad that's the case anf if that was the plan for 616, Well, it's good Claremont didn't have a chance to use the plot. I'd rather have the HC with motivations of their own that the SK beig behind it all.

But, concurrently, Chris Claremont has his Shadow King story running in Uncanny X-Men. Excalibur #21-22 is more foreshadowing about the Shadow King's involvement with the mainstream Marvel Universe's Hellfire Club building to its climax in Uncanny X-Men. Magneto left the Hellfire Club specifically because the Shaodw King had taken a direct role in the Lords Cardinal.

[xmanson]

But, concurrently, Chris Claremont has his Shadow King story running in Uncanny X-Men. Excalibur #21-22 is more foreshadowing about the Shadow King's involvement with the mainstream Marvel Universe's Hellfire Club building to its climax in Uncanny X-Men. Magneto left the Hellfire Club specifically because the Shaodw King had taken a direct role in the Lords Cardinal.


When was it stated that was the reason he left?

Foreshadowing is one thing, it doesn't mean that's the case, and as I said, it's a stupid idea.

[david r]

The Hellfire Club were not meant to remain pawns of the Shadow King forever. It was just going to happen during this one story.

Claremont hinted to his Uncanny plans in both Excalibur and New Mutants.

[spoon_jenkins]

1) I don't know for certain, but I suspect that Marvel deleted the pages that were subplots of Chris Claremont's run. Subplots that DID NOT have anything to do with the core X-Tinction Agenda epic being told in those issues. (If so, you will not miss those pages.)
I hate when they do that. I think the story should be reproduced in its entirety. The problem with cutting subplots is that some folks, like me, purchase TPBs as part of large runs rather than independent stories. I was displeased to learn that my Days of Future Past TPB was missing the last page (cuz I guess they thought it'd be too much of a downer).

[Matthew K.]

Brubaker may be able to write almost anything he wants (including killing off any character he wants :mad: ), but I don't expect his run to be good because of the status quo that he is building off of. I don't think any X-writer can write a good run currently because the previous work was bad. I find it to be like building a castle on sand.

Y'know, you can build some really beautiful sand castles
http://www.sandude.com/

[fishtaco]

Magneto may have come in at some time to help defeat the Shadow King around Uncanny X-Men #300. The Shadow King is one of the reasons Magneto killed Zaladane in Uncanny X-Men #275 & he helped Rogue by killing "Ms. Marvel" because the "Ms. Marvel" creature was corrupted by the Shadow King in Uncanny X-Men #269/There's also the Magneto/Shadow King connection in Uncannny X-Men #275. Similar to how the Shadow King knew Rachel before she was born (Excalibur 22), I believe that the same held for Magneto. Given the Shadow King's hooks into the Nazi Party (X-Men: True Friends 2-3), I believe that Magneto is not Polish, Jewish, or Gypsy, when he in fact was put into the concentration camps because the Shadow King wanted him there in order to mold him into Magneto, the self-styled mutant supremicist. I am not sure if he engineered the deaths of Anya and Isabelle, though. Furthermore, I believe he implanted Mastermind in Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants to keep Magneto in check. The Shadow King would have let Magneto carry out his "own" vision for mutants salvation, because logically it would lead to a bloody race war, and therefore initiate the Days of Future Past events (or those similar to it) and allow the Shadow King to conquer this reality. Obviously, the the events of Uncanny X-Men #200 are not what the Shadow King had planned.

Just shades of Days of Future Past seem to be on the horizon.Look at the cover to Uncanny X-Men #245 very carefully ;)

Just what's already been stated here previously.Following Jeannie and Logan hooking up in Uncanny X-Men #294, and given what we have seen in X-Men: The End- Heroes and Martyrs #5, it's quite obvious to me that Sabretooth would have tried to kill Jean. It actually happened in X-Men (2nd Series) #28, but that was written by Fabian Nicieza (but it could have been influenced by Claremont's plans, like many, many, many other stories seen after Claremont's departure, most notably Graydon Creed '96 and X-Men 4-7). Mr. Nicieza, if you're reading this, care to clarify? Given Claremont's stance on Jean's return in 1986, I wouldn't put it past Chris to actually have Sabretooth kill her, like he did Seraph, and Silver Fox, and had Chris and John's original plan happened, Mariko.



Xavier was going to lose his telepathy around the Uncanny X-Men #280's, but the Shadow King would not perish. The Shadow King is too powerful at this point. Therefore, Xavier sacrificed his life somehow--maybe his astral essence literally takes the Shadow King to the Otherside or Heaven with the help of the other X-Men, Gateway, & Magneto culminating in Uncanny X-Men #300. Where did you hear that Xavier was going to lose his powers? I suspect it would have been right after the X-men returned from Shiar Space. Was this from an interview, or research that you have done in the comics, or...?



Gateway would be the X-Men's spiritual leader of the X-Men. I don't think he would have direct role as Magneto, Cyclops, & Storm. No, Gateway's role really wouldn't be as direct, but he really would be the leader. Gateway cannot talk, but he communicates through dreams (nightmares too). For example, in Uncanny X-Men #250, he couldn't just tell Psylocke to evacuate the Outback, but he projected her into the Dreamtime and gave her visions of herself and the team crucified. Psylocke did have a precognitive vision, yes, but it wasn't her own.

Yes, he would lead the team along with Storm, Magneto, Havok for X-Factor), Cyclops, while Cable would lead the New Mutants, but like you mentioned, all of these leaders would have different views. Gateway is practicly a synonym for knowledge, so therefore he would see a much bigger picture that spans across all of Cross-Time; It's not like the Shadow King only tries to corrupt 616. As stated in New Excalibur #8, he exists in all realities, and he said it was Earth 616 that has given him so much trouble to conquer. This is likely due to Rachel's error, in which she projected Kate Pryde back in time to the wrong past in Uncanny X-Men #'s 141-142. Had she transported her to any other reality, Earth 616 would have already been as good as corrupted.


Magneto mentions the Shadow King has infiltrated the Hellfire Club circa Uncanny X-Men #275. You also need to read Excalibur #21-22. The Shadow King is the true source of evil for the Hellfire Club. The Lords Cardinal is really pawns of the Shadow King, although they are not aware they are his puppets.Yet the Inner Circle is completely ignorant to the Shadow King's existance. They only know someone by the name of Elias Bogan, that is, if you wish to reference post-1991 continuity.

[Affinity]

that is, if you wish to reference post-1991 continuity.

God forbid, buddy...

:D

[david r]

Ha! I love it! The cover to Uncanny X-Men #245? Fishtaco, you mean Logan's "new jacket" comment? And how that jacket eerily looks like the same one he was wearing in "Days of Future Past"?

Seriously, I've wondered if that was done on purpose. Or if we are putting WAY TOO much into that cover.

Gateway: I can understand Gateway becoming a new mentor for the X-Men. (Following Charles Xavier's planned demise.) But with him being mute, I wonder how this would have worked. Would it all have been through dreams? I suspect that Gateway would have remained in Australia, post-300, with one of the X-teams remaining in their Australian town. You just know that Claremont was NOT going to abandon Australia.

[buckeye9167]

Mmm... I see those things more as "X-Factor circa 1999" and "the Brood Saga, Skrull Shi'ar infiltration, Space Phalanx story, and Alan Davis time-travel space dealie" respectively, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful for our new writers, they've both written great things; but the bare-bones concepts themselves for their first storylines (that we've heard about, anyway) aren't enough to have me changing my underoos or anything.
-D

Depends. Morrison is the only one who's found a role for the Prof in recent years, and for the most part, people have ignored the multiple teams based at the mansion. At least with the new creators, Marvel have finally dropped the editorial edict that all teams will be based at the mansion under prof X.... it hasn't really worked for anyone. Even if the new series don't work... at least they won't drag the others down with them by having to cross reference and synchronize plots

[Marty4Magik]

I was displeased to learn that my Days of Future Past TPB was missing the last page (cuz I guess they thought it'd be too much of a downer).
What happens on that missing page then?:eek:

[DDM]

What happens on that missing page then?:eek:

The President of the United States, Henry Peter Gyrich, Sebastian Shaw, & Senator Robert Kelly agree to secretly restart the Sentinel Program called "Project Wideawake." Shaw Industries builds the Sentinels for the government. Ironically, it appears that saving Senator Kelly in the mainstream Marvel Universe is the reason Days of Future Past may happen. Rachel Summers mentions it when she catches the news in Uncanny X-Men #184 thinking she's in the wrong past...

[david r]

The President of the United States, Henry Peter Gyrich, Sebastian Shaw, & Senator Robert Kelly agree to secretly restart the Sentinel Program called "Project Wideawake." Shaw Industries builds the Sentinels for the government.

In what comic book did this originally appear in? I do not recall this happening in Claremont's Uncanny X-Men issues, #270-272.

[DDM]

In what comic book did this originally appear in? I do not recall this happening in Claremont's Uncanny X-Men issues, #270-272.

It's at the end of Uncanny X-Men #142. Shaw's Sentinels attack the X-Men to test them in Uncanny X-Men #151-152 as Emma Frost steal's Storm's body for her own.

[fishtaco]

Gateway: I can understand Gateway becoming a new mentor for the X-Men. (Following Charles Xavier's planned demise.) But with him being mute, I wonder how this would have worked. Would it all have been through dreams? I suspect that Gateway would have remained in Australia, post-300, with one of the X-teams remaining in their Australian town. You just know that Claremont was NOT going to abandon Australia.Well, they definitely weren't going back to Xavier's after Claremont had it destroyed in Uncanny X-Men #243. That was Jim Lee's awful idea. Moving back into the Outback would imply they defeat the Reavers again, because they took over the town when the X-Men disbanded in Uncanny X-Men #251. Rogue promised Gateway she would return to free him from the Reavers in Uncanny X-Men #269 (this ended up happening in X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001). I know that the X-Men were going to fight the Reavers again in X-Men (2nd Series) #4 (resulting in the death of Wolverine), so maybe the X-Men would have went back to the Outback at that time. Muir Island would also have been unavailable, because I don't think it was ever Chris's intention to go straight from Shiar Space to Muir Island. Maybe Mr. Claremont was going to create a new base of operations.

And yeah, I think Gateway communicates by spiriting people into the Dreamtime. I think he would have actually joined the team before Uncanny X-Men #300, though. I don't know where Professor X was going to be.

[flapjaxx]

Well, they definitely weren't going back to Xavier's after Claremont had it destroyed in Uncanny X-Men #243. That was Jim Lee's awful idea.

How do we know this was Jim Lee's idea and not Bob Harras's? I'm sure Lee went along with it, but I'm just unsure as to who propelled the decision to return to status quo. I had been under the impression that this was more Harras's idea and Lee was just happy to go along with it. But I don't know what facts exactly I base that on. Is there evidence of how much was Jim Lee's actual idea?

[fishtaco]

How do we know this was Jim Lee's idea and not Bob Harras's? I'm sure Lee went along with it, but I'm just unsure as to who propelled the decision to return to status quo. I had been under the impression that this was more Harras's idea and Lee was just happy to go along with it. But I don't know what facts exactly I base that on. Is there evidence of how much was Jim Lee's actual idea?Because Chris said so in an interview. It was Lee's idea, and Harras agreed with Lee for two reasons.

1. Lee's art was wildy popular (which logically means he is right about plots, right? :rolleyes: )

2. Bob Harras is a 60's fan himself who doesn't know anything about the X-Men between the cancellation of the book in 1970 and his stint as editor of the book.

[Marty4Magik]

The President of the United States, Henry Peter Gyrich, Sebastian Shaw, & Senator Robert Kelly agree to secretly restart the Sentinel Program called "Project Wideawake." Shaw Industries builds the Sentinels for the government. Ironically, it appears that saving Senator Kelly in the mainstream Marvel Universe is the reason Days of Future Past may happen. Rachel Summers mentions it when she catches the news in Uncanny X-Men #184 thinking she's in the wrong past...

Crap.
Crap in hell.

That sucks.
Now I have to look for the individual issues.....:mad: :mad:

[Metallurgique]

You know it's interesting that we're talking about this now, because we might be about to witness the very last piece of the "outback" era story.

This was one of my favorite eras of the X-men and the one I was most interested in when these stories were new.

Anyway I've been reading New X-Men: Academy X, now just New X-men. They've just brought back Nimrod, the original Nimrod, not the red one from X-force or Bastion or the Master-Mold/Nimrod Mutant Hybrid.

Rogue/Carol pushed the Master-Mold/Nimrod Hybrid into the siege Perilous in Uncanny #247, and she wasn't seen again until Uncanny #269, when Rogue was finally parted from Carol's consciousness. Master-Nimrold wasn't seen again until X-men #52, when he was revealed to have been reincarnated as a living, breathing person - Bastion.

I wonder though - maybe Nimrod was removed from Bastion/Master-Mold by passing through the Siege Perilous, the same mysterious process that removed Carol from Rogue.

In the current continuity, it's been roughly three years since the Muir Isle/Shadow King story, and roughly two years since Bastion's apperance. When Nimrod appeared to Reverend Stryker, in the current arc in New X-men, Stryker says that it was "two years ago."

Pointless speculation? Sure. But I want to see how they explain the return of Nimrod 1.

[david r]

I would not expect Nimrod's appearance in "New X-Men" to play any real bearing on the old Outback era.

Senator Robert Kelly's death in Days of Future Past was seen as the starting point for the horrors that would follow. What Chris Claremont planned in the early 1990s was for the X-Men to SAVE Kelly from assassination, only for this to trigger the dreaded Days of Future Past world anyway. That in our timeline, things play out very differently.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Timely response

[flapjaxx]

I started this thread a looong time ago. Still no new Essential X-Men volume (8, I think, would be the next one). Thankfully, other "opportunities" long ago presented themselves, allowing me to have read all of these issues.

I still think the Paul Smith / early, early JRJR era of Uncanny is my favorite run, but I'm probably biased because of how the "From the Ashes" TPB hit me, and at what age, at what age I started collecting X-Men:Classic (just when the first few JRJR issues came out).

Jeeesus, back when I used to be a teenager who was REALLY into comics, I was so lucky then that Marvel published X-Men: Classic. I didn't know it at the time, but that was the best comic I bought every month.

Whenever I read certain people online explain what the "Outback era" means to them, I always feel like Uncanny circa 167-205 means the same to me. 205 was the first X-comic I bought; I picked it out of the local store when I was like 5 years old. Oh the memories...

[blinkinrogue]

speaking of gateway from reading all these posts, M called him MENTOR (well technically the twins if you really have to be strict about it).... what did she mean by that?? and how long has Gateway been mentoring M??? has this been resolved?

[blinkinrogue]

i also want to collect the outback issues, i just love this lineup, right mix of power and personalities...

[david r]

Whenever I read certain people online explain what the "Outback era" means to them, I always feel like Uncanny circa 167-205 means the same to me. 205 was the first X-comic I bought; I picked it out of the local store when I was like 5 years old. Oh the memories...

I agree that 167-205 was a prime time. You could count on high quality, every issue and every month. I remember reading the Brood Saga during the summer of 1982 and being completely in awe. A real rollercoaster ride.

But it's ironic 'cause X-Men was never my fave book. I think the "School" and "Students" aspect turned me off while I was a student in school myself. It wasn't until the Outback era, (and the later collapse of the X-Men's world #246-280) that X-Men became my fave comic. I liked seeing Xavier's Dream and the X-Men come crashing down, and it was sink or swim. I found that era highly suspenseful and full of surprises.

[david r]

speaking of gateway from reading all these posts, M called him MENTOR (well technically the twins if you really have to be strict about it).... what did she mean by that?? and how long has Gateway been mentoring M??? has this been resolved?

It's not resolved. I doubt it ever will be. Gateway has been around since 1987. And except for the Bishop connection, we've not come any closer to his secrets than we were in UXM #229.

I doubt we ever will.

[blinkinrogue]

hmmm i wonder why... that was one of the questions raised when gen x came out, M's connection to gateway, and i was thinking when i stopped reading gen x that it probably was explained.... too bad they didnt touch that topic again though, and if gateway knew he was tutoring the right M, and not the twins.... interesting, interesting... where can i send questions to scott lobdell? he should have an answer hahaha...

[david r]

The likely reason the M/Gateway connection was never resolved was because Scott Lobdell left. Marvel is NOT known for addressing lingering subplots.

Scott Lobdell had a forum at Comix-Fan, but he has not posted there in 3 years. I don't know of any way to contact Scott.

[blinkinrogue]

i just read the wiki entry on gateway, and it states he is practically omniscient, so he is probably the "source" or one of the sources why M kept claiming there is only a few things she does not know...

[DDM]

i just read the wiki entry on gateway, and it states he is practically omniscient, so he is probably the "source" or one of the sources why M kept claiming there is only a few things she does not know...

Chris Claremont intended for Gateway's connection with the X-Men was going to have some unexpected results that originally linked him with the Hellfire Club via expelled White King & the Reavers' founder, Donald Pierce. Gateway was not going to be the ally he seemed to be, but transcend "good" & "evil" as we know it. However, this connection would not be good for the X-Men.

[blinkinrogue]

oh, ok, and M would have been a really good Black Queen in the making hehe... :D

[MartinRedmond]

I'm glad he didn't do the dark Wolverine stuff. But still. I collected this from 167 til 281 or so. The change with the relaunch was jarring and I didn't like it at all.

[Frank]

In retrospect I think the X-tinction event damaged the Outback X-Men in a lot of ways. I think it would have been interesting to have these various X-Men group hanging around for quite a while with Forge/Banshee with a few guys, Wolvie/Jubillee/Psylocke and other groups but the X-Tinction Agenda put them back together all over again way too quickly. The whole thing felt rushed and the event was sub-par in a lot of ways. Plus it felt cheap of Marvel to have all the X-Men back together for this big event and then split them off all over again just so they could mastermind the marketing ploy of the relaunch with X-Men 1-3.

I understand that if X-Tinction Agenda would not have happened, the Outback team would not have been decimated like it was. And Polaris would have joined as a female powerhouse(remember when she got this secondary mutation and became really big when attacked by the Shadow King?).

[blinkinrogue]

so there's still no essentials or something yet? i wish they'd collect the issues from the mutant massacre and just before the x-tinction agenda... hmmm a lot of issues to put together, but i really like this team, even if the reason i got into the x-men was the animated series in the early 90s... oh well...

[tetragene]

I thought someone said before that the next Uncanny X-Men essential would be the Aussie Outback era. I don't even know what all issues have been collected so far--I almost never see any Essentials in book stores.

I would like for it to be collected already though--definitely a good period for the X-Men: a balanced team, no Phoenix/Phoenix Force, no Xavier, no mansion, no super-ninja Psylocke. There were a lot of good character moments for Psylocke and Rogue during this period as well. Longshot and Dazzler I felt the most detached from of the teammembers--but Storm's role as leader and her good and not-so-good decisions were interesting. As was a time when Wolverine was truly a badass instead of an over-hyped/sensationalized, over-used character.

[Zombienorthstar]

Isn't it going to be collected in a hardcover omnibus like the All New All Different Team's initial adventures.? That'd be cool.

[flapjaxx]

Isn't it going to be collected in a hardcover omnibus like the All New All Different Team's initial adventures.? That'd be cool.

^Where did you hear that? I doubt it. If they were going to do another hardcover omnibus I would think it would be a more popular era from like around 1990-1992 or so, with all of the Jim Lee stuff.

To the other person who asked, yeah the next Essential Vol (number 8) would collect the bulk of the Outback era. It's been almost a year since Vol 7; I really thought it would have dropped by now. I guess Marvel would rather put out the first two volumes of Weird 70s Comics No One Remembers than get up to the number 8 on Uncanny. :evilangry

[Mikl C]

Chris Claremont intended for Gateway's connection with the X-Men was going to have some unexpected results that originally linked him with the Hellfire Club via expelled White King & the Reavers' founder, Donald Pierce. Gateway was not going to be the ally he seemed to be, but transcend "good" & "evil" as we know it. However, this connection would not be good for the X-Men.

Jeez. I bet he was really the Shadow King in disguise too, right?

[blinkinrogue]

im thinking about buying vol. 7, but i heard its not colored??? but vol.7 looks interesting, wish they could announce about 8 coz i sure have to save money for it when it comes out...

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Jeez. I bet he was really the Shadow King in disguise too, right?

Nah. As i recall CC was going to off Xavier in Uncanny X-men 300 and there would be two teams.

One led by Magneto, which was a pimp lineup btw

and the other, as i recall,

led by Gateway.

Gateway's awesome. Just sort of hangs about.

[djm]

im thinking about buying vol. 7, but i heard its not colored??? but vol.7 looks interesting, wish they could announce about 8 coz i sure have to save money for it when it comes out...

none of the marvel essentials are colored :(

They are still great reads and cheap ways to catch up on the back story. Volume 7 is only 11.55 if ordered from amazon. I usually order my TPBs from Amazon becasue over 25 bucks and it is free shipping and you can usually save 4 or 5 bucks on each TPB.

I think the vol 8 of Essentials for UXM will probably cover 229-252 or so. They usually cover about 20-25 issues or so. That would cover it up past wolverines fever dream arc.

Then Vol 9 they could cover 253-272 covering Xtiction agenda

then vol 10 could start the reordering etc.

thats just a hunch i have no clue really how they would do it.

[blinkinrogue]

ohhh ok thats why theyre cheap i asked about this a few days ago i guess i forgot i tend to confuse it with omnibus, and TPB, and stuff... any news when its coming out??

[DDM]

Jeez. I bet he was really the Shadow King in disguise too, right?

No. Gateway--via expelled White King, Donald Pierce--& the X-Men--via Magneto as the former Hellfire Club's White King--would simply come back to haunt them. So this too would turn out to be one of Storm's grave mistakes allying the X-Men with the Hellfire Club soon after The Mutant Massacre.

I think Chris Claremont intended the Shadow King to be the Hellfire Club's true founder & original Lord Imperial.

[Zombienorthstar]

^Where did you hear that? I doubt it. If they were going to do another hardcover omnibus I would think it would be a more popular era from like around 1990-1992 or so, with all of the Jim Lee stuff.

To the other person who asked, yeah the next Essential Vol (number 8) would collect the bulk of the Outback era. It's been almost a year since Vol 7; I really thought it would have dropped by now. I guess Marvel would rather put out the first two volumes of Weird 70s Comics No One Remembers than get up to the number 8 on Uncanny. :evilangry

I didnt hear it...i was asking to see if that was gonna happen. Hence the question mark....

[jarrod]

^Where did you hear that? I doubt it. If they were going to do another hardcover omnibus I would think it would be a more popular era from like around 1990-1992 or so, with all of the Jim Lee stuff.
Actually, I'd expect the next Omnibus to pick up right where Vol.1 left off (Uncanny #131).

It'd be nice if they continued doing the Omnibus HCs for the entirety of Claremont's run actually, maybe end it at Uncanny #277 for a good stopping point (as the Muir Island Saga sort of got taken out of his hands).

[fishtaco]

I think Chris Claremont intended the Shadow King to be the Hellfire Club's true founder & original Lord Imperial.According to Chris Claremont, the Shadow King was meant to just exploit the Hellfire Club. He wasn't intended to be its founder. The credit goes to Francis Dashwood.

I think Mastermind's (attempted) entry into the Inner Circle is what first brought the Shadow King to their doorstep. Before that, I think it was just Shaw and Frost and Pierce and LeLand causing trouble.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Francis Dashwood? No idea who that is, but he needs to be brought back simply for the name. Golden.

[DDM]

Francis Dashwood? No idea who that is, but he needs to be brought back simply for the name. Golden.

Sir Francis Dashwood was once alive & founded the Hellfire Club in truth, but it's not the same club in the Marvel Comics. He basically used the club to engage in debauchery to rebel against the Victorian times.

[The Lucky One]

I thought someone said before that the next Uncanny X-Men essential would be the Aussie Outback era. I don't even know what all issues have been collected so far--I almost never see any Essentials in book stores.

Essential vol. 7 ended right after the Fall of the Mutants -- the last issue in it was the fill-in flashback issue with Dazzler and that bounty hunter dude. Which means the first issue of vol. 8 will be the issue where the X-Men oust the Reavers from their base, and then it's full-on Oz-Men.

-D

[Frank]

Nah. As i recall CC was going to off Xavier in Uncanny X-men 300 and there would be two teams.

One led by Magneto, which was a pimp lineup btw

and the other, as i recall,

led by Gateway.

Gateway's awesome. Just sort of hangs about.

That would have been pretty damn awesome. Gateway was a fantastic character and I always wished he would have become more important.

And for Magneto to actualy run a group that shares his philosophy is too exciting to contemplate..!

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

He was supposed to be, i think, the receptical for all human knowledge or some such

thats why he always knew where the x-men needed to go.

Plus him just sitting on his ass atop that plateau was cooler than every issue featuring gambit ever.

He'd like occasionally go to the x-men base to get himself a sammich, then back up he would go.

[david r]

The things I know about the aborted finale to the Outback Era:

1) Donald Pierce would have been revealed to be under the power of the Shadow King. Thus, the Reavers and Lady Deathstrike were at his beck-and-call. (This was told in X-Treme X-Men Annual #1.)

2) Gateway was to be kidnapped by the Shadow King and Dr. Lian Shen, his servant. The SK would have attempted to "break" Gateway (how I'm not sure) so the Shadow King could access Dreamtime. And by controlling Dreamtime, his power would have become infinite. This was one of the many chess pieces the SK was playing to conquer in Claremont's Shadow King Saga.

3) Reaver Pretty Boy was going to betray Donald Pierce, and possibly help take him down.

4) An X-Men team would confront the Reavers in X-Men #3 (1991), and Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike would have had a ferocious battle. Both would have perished as the outcome.

5) Cylla (sp?). Cylla. I always wondered what Cylla was all about !

[fishtaco]

Brian...

The adjectiveless X-Men team was going to be: Storm (leader), Beast, Wolverine (would have died on first mission, returned later), Rogue, Psylocke, Forge, Jubilee and Guido Carosella. Magneto would have came in after Uncanny X-Men #300.

The Uncanny X-Men team was going to be: Cyclops (leader), Iceman, Archangel, Jean Grey, Banshee, Colossus, Gambit. I really don't know where Professor X was going to be until his death in #300 on Muir Island. I don't know where Scott's team was going to be based at, although underground the Xavier Institute ruins is likely.

I suspect that Storm's team would have returned to the Outback in X-Men (2nd Series) #2 to get back Gateway (like in X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001). That's where they would have obviously encountered the Reavers, leaving Wolverine killed by Lady Deathstrike, and Lady Deathstrike killed by (not totally sure, but I'm probably right) Jubilee. Those random outbursts of energy that Jubilee has no control over like in Uncanny X-Men #'s 258 and 276? I think Yuriko would have been blown to bits.

As David R pointed out, Gateway was still to be a prisoner of the Shadow King, making him useless to the X-Men stationed down under. When the Shadow King was to be defeated in Uncanny X-Men #300, I suspect we were to learn more about who Gateway really is. His role was likely to increase greatly.

After Xavier's death on Muir, I don't have much of an idea as to what was to become of Polaris, Moira MacTaggert, Lila Cheney, Alysande Stuart, Amanda Sefton, Multiple Man, Siryn, Legion (his body, at least), Stevie Hunter or Callisto. Peter David was still likely to take over X-Factor, and since Claremont wasn't going to put them on a roster, he would have been able to at least use Multiple Man, Polaris, Quicksilver, Wolfsbane (although Weezie still wanted her for New Mutants, and Liefeld only created Feral because he couldn't use Rahne), and Havok (who was still on Genosha after X-Tinction Agenda). No Guido, though. Siryn could have worked.

Ann Nocenti and Art Adams had plans for Longshot, but it didn't happen. Claremont had plans for Karma, but he left the Wolverine solo title.

Had she stayed on the book, Louise Simonson's New Mutants roster would have been Cable, Cannonball, Wolfsbane, Sunspot, Magik, Magma, Warlock, Rictor and Boom-Boom.

Captain Britain, Meggan, Nightcrawler, Phoenix and Shadowcat would have all remained in Excalibur.

No plans for Dazzler.

I suspect Tessa and Peter Jr. would have joined at some point. I know that Mystique was going to be confronted by Storm's team (with or without Freedom Force, I don't know), but I doubt she would have joined the team.

[tetragene]

CC was originally going to kill Dazzler off in UXM #247 (foreshadowing in UXM #245 and 246). Peter Jr. was still a very young kid during the X-Men's stay in the outback--what role would he have filled in the new teams since they already had Jubilee? Kitty Pryde part trois?

[fishtaco]

CC was originally going to kill Dazzler off in UXM #247 (foreshadowing in UXM #245 and 246). Peter Jr. was still a very young kid during the X-Men's stay in the outback--what role would he have filled in the new teams since they already had Jubilee? Kitty Pryde part trois?I know about Dazzler. We should all thank Marc Silvestri for that one. I don't think Peter was going to come in till way, way later. Claremont was probably thinking, "If I'm still writing the book by the time he would be old enough to join the X-Men, I'll use him. If not, oh well." Peter Jr. was probably going to replace Colossus himself. I think Colossus (and Callisto) would have moved on from the X-Men, just like how Banshee did in Uncanny X-Men #129, Rogue and Gambit in X-Treme X-Men #19, Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men #201 (that didn't last, did it?), the original team in Uncanny X-Men #94. If so, Peter Jr. and Jubilee wouldn't have been in the same book/same team. In one interview, Claremont mentioned that he was originally trying hard to write Jubilee differently from how he wrote Kitty Pryde.

[DDM]

I suspect Tessa...would have joined at some point. I know that Mystique was going to be confronted by Storm's team (with or without Freedom Force, I don't know), but I doubt she would have joined the team.

Sage would have revealed her true nature--as Xavier's secret double agent--when the Shadow King infiltrated the Hellfire Club & then joined the X-Men full time, more than likely with Storm's team, as a refuge from the Shadow King's corruption.

I'm not sure when Sage would have joined though. It could be before or after the Shadow King's final confrontation with Xavier.

[david r]

My two cents: I think the Tessa "twist" would have been revealed during the Shadow King epic. Leading up to UXM #300, Tessa would have revealed her true allegiances and helped foil the SK's plans. Especially since Sebastian Shaw had been killed by Shinobi, she would have wanted revenge for this act.

Pure guess-work, but I think Tessa would have then joined an X-team following the SK showdown. So we're talking 1993, probably. (Whether she would have had the codename "Sage" then is conjecture.) Zonzorp must weep at all the Sage tales he's missed as a result of CC's quitting.

I don't think Claremont had any plans for Dazzler, Multiple Man, Siryn, Havok, Polaris or Wolfsbane. Legion would have perished during the SK Saga, along with his father Charles Xavier. Gateway was planned to lead one team. Lila Cheney and Stevie Hunter likely would have remained supporting cast members.

I agree with Fishtaco, I believe Colossus and Callisto would have retired from the books, as a couple together. (Though would Callisto ever abandon the Morlocks?) I think Claremont had further plans for Lady Deathstrike, and her death would have been as permanent as Wolverine's was planned to be.

I believe both Senator Robert Kelly and Moira McTaggart were to die, during Claremont's Shadow King Saga. Much of Dream's End was originally plotted for the SK Saga. Remember, 1992 was a real Presidential Election Year back then. Claremont wanted to coincide Robert Kelly's anti-mutant campaign with the REAL elections. I feel Moira was planned to die.