Avengers League: Siddon v. Grazzt

[Jessica Drew]

Welcome to the next match of the Avengers League! If you haven't been following the league, it is a large scale series of battles where posters draft teams and pit their teams against that of other posters, and you vote to decide who wins. When voting, please consider the strategies the players have written, rather than just the team's roster.

Each match is taking place on an empty battlefield, 100 yards away, and each character (with few exceptions) depicted is in his/her most frequent incarnation (therefore, no Iron Spidey or Extremis Iron Man), and the characters have to act in character (meaning that the heroes cannot kill if they aren't normally wont to do so).

If you have any questions about the strategies, please feel free to post these questions here, and the players will answer. The match will last twenty-four hours. After that time period, the player with the largest number of votes wins.

!!! - For your vote to count, you must have a post count of no lower than fifty.

Siddon's team: Songbird, Morgan Le Fey, Dr. Druid, Firestar, Blizzard, Magdelene, Captain America, Spider-Woman, Beast, Jarvis, Bendis

Grazzt's team: Ultron, Agatha Harkness, Dr. Spectrum, Whirlwind, Speed Demon, Gamora, Mr. Fantastic, Stan Lee

[Jessica Drew]

Siddon's strategy:

Jarvocity

Phase 1
My team divides into three parts, Speed Demon and Whirlwind are coming and coming fast but the shear volume of talented fighters will ward off an immediate assault Whirlwind will have to Morgan Le Fay

The trick for this is to protect Morgan from Whirlwind and Agatha fortunately Agatha is a talented sorceress she is a kind one as well and won’t go for a kill shot.

The match begins with Dr Druid creating the illusion that Jarvis is Morgan Le Fay, Agatha will see through this ruse eventually but Morgan will open up the ground beneath her and pile on rocks in an attempt to crush what ever shields Spectrum has set up to protect her.

Firestar will launch out a fury of blasts along the open field as will Spider-woman, Spider-man can hold his own against Speed Demon so the more powerful Spider-woman should be able to take the little ZOOM reject out.

Team One Songbird throws up a bunch of shields as Songbird Magdaline, and Morgan Le Fay teleport away from the battle
Team Two of Druid Blizzard Beast and Jarvis move into the upper corner
Team Three of Firestar Captain America Spider-woman and Bendis stand there ground to deal with the onslaught of the initial assault from Speed Demon/Whirlwind

Speed Demon is out while Whirlwind is chasing Blizzard, if Whirlwind catches Blizzard then he has Beast to deal with and considering that Wasp can kick his ass everyones favorite furry feline should be able to hold his own.

Phase 2

Dr Druid creates an illusion of Bendis as nude Wasp this should be enough of a distraction for the perverted evil of Whirlwind and Ultron to try and pull a Dr. Light. If they don’t kill each other then I am sure they will have been adequately distracted enough for Captain America to break off Ultron’s Head and Firestar to melt Whirlwinds armor.

Once Speed Demon and Whirlwind are out than Magdelene will teleport Blizzard into any shield that Spectrum has set up and leave him there cocooning everyone inside the shield into ice this will take out Gamora/ Stan Lee / Mr. Fantastic and Agatha


Phase 3
Spectrum should be the last man standing
Dr. Druid will take over his mind, Morgan will turn him into a frog and Firestar will increase the heat in his system to take him. If none of that works then Songbird will simply open a hard shell between his crystal and his hand and then Firestar will blast him.

[Jessica Drew]

Grazzt's strategy:

Round 1: My guess is that Siddon's strategy will begin with Firestar sending out a blinding flash. My team will counter that by having Doc Spectrum place Firestar in a force bubble that will keep out her radiation. He will then concentrate on his personal defense and keeping Firestar in her bubble.

Whirlwind and Speed Demon rush the enemy mystics, with Agatha providing mystical support as they pound Druid and Morgan quickly.

Ultron awaits the inevitable teleportation from Magdalene. If Magdalene teleports over with Songbird, Ultron uses his hypnosis on Songbird, who then attacks Magdalene. Otherwise, he hypnotises Magdalene, who teleports behind Songbird and stabs her with her lance. Ultron then physically confronts whoever else teleported in with Magdalene, prioritizing Spider Woman and Blizzard.

Gamora takes down Spider Woman with energy weapons, then closes on Beast in melee while Mr. Fantastic attacks Cap. These are easy wins for each of my team, albeit not very important in the long run.

Stan Lee takes Jarvis' tea set and shoves it down his throat. I won't describe what he does to Bendis, because it wouldn't be allowed by the Comic Authority Code.

Round 2: The mystics have been bowled over. Magdalene and Songbird have been turned against each other. Firestar is in a bubble. Beast and Cap are probably out, as is Spider-Woman.

From here on in, its just clean up. Agatha creates a giant hand out of mystical energy to paralyse one of the remaining members of Siddon's team, prioritizing Spider-Woman. Ultron assists Magdalene and/or Songbird (assuming they're still fighting), and then the victors attack any survivor's, prioritizing Firestar (on the off chance she broke out of Spectrum's force bubble) and Blizzard. Doc Spectrum contracts his force bubble until Firestar is crushed, then joins the clean up. Gamora and Mr. Fantastic do the same.

[Siddon]

I find it ironic that both plans have a rape of Bendis.

:)

[Nightcrawler]

I voted for Grazzty. I would have voted for Grazzt, but apparently he didn't make the ballot.

Grazzt's strategy seemed to deal with Siddon's key players well, and, while it is very close, I think he takes it in the end.

[Grazzt]

I find it ironic that both plans have a rape of Bendis.

:)

I guess it is true about great minds thinking alike. :D

[Siddon]

Okay heres why I win

1. Grazzt doesn't allow for any defenses of his team mates particularly Agatha
2. Although Speed Demon and Whirlwind are fast they are not fast enough to cross the field and eliminate Druid and Agatha remember these characters couldn't beat Wasp or Spider-man they are not Quicksilver

[Grazzt]

Rebuttal to the above:

1. Don't need any defenses, I focus on pure offense. And your offense takes until phase two to kick into high gear. By that time the majority of your team will be down/hypnotised.

2. We calculated Speed Demon's time to cross the field as being 1.2 seconds. Whirlwind is much faster. That's plenty fast for most magic users, particularly since yours aren't focussing on self-defense, rather on creating illusions.

Other flaws in your strategy:

1. While creating illusions is a good idea, its not going to fool anyone. My speedsters will see your illusions being made, so they really can't be fooled. I know Whirlwind and Speed Demon aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer, but I doubt they'd be fooled by an illusionary Morgan or Dr. Druid when the real one is right in front of them.

[Siddon]

He may cross the field in 1.2 seconds but thats more then enough time to remove Dr. Druid and teleport Morgan from the field, he also has a half dozen "lesser" characters such as Spider-woman, Firestar, Cap and Beast going straight for them. Also neither character has the ability to shatter a shield of Songbirds ability which is also part of phase 1. And they are not there in front of them they are behind Songbird's shields and 100 yards away.

[Sean Whitmore]

Great strats, both of you!

Siddon
No offense to JD intended, but when did Spiderwoman become "more powerful" than Spider-Man? And even if she were, she lacks the spider sense that makes Peter a match for a speedster.

Why would Ultron be distracted by a naked Wasp? Does she have transistors and stuff under her clothes? :)


Grazzt
Stan's a billion years old, and he takes Bendis AND Jarvis? Come on. ;)


I gotta give this one to Grazzy, because of the above, and because I agree with him that the illusions wouldn't work.


SEAN

[venuscameback]

2. We calculated Speed Demon's time to cross the field as being 1.2 seconds. Whirlwind is much faster. That's plenty fast for most magic users, particularly since yours aren't focussing on self-defense, rather on creating illusions.


I don't know about Speed demon's speed but I used Whirlwind in the X-Men League and calculated his speed as far slower than 1.2 seconds to cross the battlefield, I think it was 5 or 6 seconds. Isn't his speed somewhere around 60mph?

[Grazzt]

I don't know about Speed demon's speed but I used Whirlwind in the X-Men League and calculated his speed as far slower than 1.2 seconds to cross the battlefield, I think it was 5 or 6 seconds. Isn't his speed somewhere around 60mph?

I'm pretty sure he outmoved Quicksilver in one of his early appearances, so while his stated speed isn't that fast, there is evidence of him moving much faster, which trumps the stated appearances.

[venuscameback]

I'm pretty sure he outmoved Quicksilver in one of his early appearances, so while his stated speed isn't that fast, there is evidence of him moving much faster, which trumps the stated appearances.

Quicksilver was much slower in those days, back when Angel could keep pace with him & he could react fast enough to turn a corner out the way of upcoming walls.

Grazzt is prepared for a completely different kind of attack to the one Siddon uses - Firestar does no blinding flash, Magdalene doesn't teleport right in, etc - so his early defensive moves are wasted, allowing Siddon's team to gain the upper hand.

Siddon's illusion won't affect Ultron & I question Dr Druid's range (I thought he was a close quarters operative) and his ranking of Spider-Woman as more powerful than Spider-Man. I doubt his move of Songbird on Dr spectrum would work but as grazzt has Spectrum on defence right until the end of the match, that's okay - by my calculations Spectrum is heavily out-numbered at that point & some of Siddon's heavyweights are intact to take him down.

However Grazzt has no back-up plan to deal with Songbird and Magdelena if they don't teleport in as he predicts, and they don't.

There are problems with both strategies but Siddon takes it pretty easily.

[Grazzt]

Grazzt is prepared for a completely different kind of attack to the one Siddon uses - Firestar does no blinding flash, Magdalene doesn't teleport right in, etc - so his early defensive moves are wasted, allowing Siddon's team to gain the upper hand.

In the case of Firestar, its not wasted. Spectrum's force bubble prevents her from doing anything.

However Grazzt has no back-up plan to deal with Songbird and Magdelena if they don't teleport in as he predicts, and they don't.

Actually, Magdelene teleports in to attack Doc Spectrum. It just happens later than I anticipated. I should have put in a condition for if she didn't teleport right away, but I don't think its a big enough deal to cost me the match.

[Grazzt]

Also, congrats to Siddon for the first tie of the League. And with a bye spot on the line as well! I'm aquiver with antici.....pation. :p

[Jessica Drew]

Wow! A genuine tie!

I'll make a decision later tonight.

[venuscameback]

In the case of Firestar, its not wasted. Spectrum's force bubble prevents her from doing anything.

Point taken.

Actually, Magdelene teleports in to attack Doc Spectrum. It just happens later than I anticipated. I should have put in a condition for if she didn't teleport right away, but I don't think its a big enough deal to cost me the match.

I know Magdelene teleports in later, but until that time you have Ultron on defence against an attack that doesn't come; and he can't attack because he's waiting on that attack, which could come at any time. and before it comes, Captain America has decapitated him.

At least, that's how I read that match playing out.

Curiously the voting is over and it's a tie. What happens now? Does JD have a casting vote or is it officially a draw?

Edit: okay, JD already answered that.

[Grazzt]

I know Magdelene teleports in later, but until that time you have Ultron on defence against an attack that doesn't come; and he can't attack because he's waiting on that attack, which could come at any time. and before it comes, Captain America has decapitated him.

Has Captain America ever decapitated Ultron before? Particularly an Ultron who's completely aware that he's coming (he's waiting for Magdalene and Songbird, but that doesn't make him oblivious to everybody else), and an Ultron in an adamantium body? It sounds ludicrous to me, but I haven't read enough Avengers to know whether it is or isn't, and Cap's shield can be surprisingly plot devicey at times.

[Siddon]

Has Captain America ever decapitated Ultron before? Particularly an Ultron who's completely aware that he's coming (he's waiting for Magdalene and Songbird, but that doesn't make him oblivious to everybody else), and an Ultron in an adamantium body? It sounds ludicrous to me, but I haven't read enough Avengers to know whether it is or isn't, and Cap's shield can be surprisingly plot devicey at times.

Last two Ultron Appearences Cap's shield is Vibratium and Adamantium and he's freaking Captain America.

P.S. No I do not teleport Magdaline anywhere near Doc I open the teleportation portal and let Blizzard freeze your character

P.P.S Spider-woman can fly and shoot static energy that makes her better then Spider-man

P.P.P.S you still didn'd deal with Songbirds shields and Whirlwind and Speed Demon have nothing on Songbirds shields Speed Demon can't even beat up Ninjas

[venuscameback]

Has Captain America ever decapitated Ultron before? Particularly an Ultron who's completely aware that he's coming (he's waiting for Magdalene and Songbird, but that doesn't make him oblivious to everybody else), and an Ultron in an adamantium body? It sounds ludicrous to me, but I haven't read enough Avengers to know whether it is or isn't, and Cap's shield can be surprisingly plot devicey at times.

Cap's done it before, yes. I can think of at least one instance and I'm pretty sure there are more. and Cap's shield will protect him from Ultron's likely attacks. Mis-matched as it may first sound I don't have a problem with Cap beating Ultron.

[Sean Whitmore]

P.P.S Spider-woman can fly and shoot static energy that makes her better then Spider-man


This has nothing to do with the fight, but I'd say that when fighting speedsters, having super speed and a spider sense is much handier than having flight and an easily-to-dodge energy blast.


SEAN

[Grazzt]

Is it just me, but has there been more debate on this fight since the polls closed than there was before, when everyone could still vote?

[Sean Whitmore]

Is it just me, but has there been more debate on this fight since the polls closed than there was before, when everyone could still vote?


Of course. Now you're both trying to convince the same person. ;)


SEAN

[Siddon]

This has nothing to do with the fight, but I'd say that when fighting speedsters, having super speed and a spider sense is much handier than having flight and an easily-to-dodge energy blast.


SEAN

Yeah I know but I concede nothing nothing I say.

[Grazzt]

Yeah I know but I concede nothing nothing I say.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. :p

[venuscameback]

Is it just me, but has there been more debate on this fight since the polls closed than there was before, when everyone could still vote?

That's pretty much my fault for only making time to read the strat through properly so late in the day. I voted, then posted, and in posting my thinking sparked the discussion.

[Jessica Drew]

Okay, I'm going to work my way through this, and give my best objective opinion. I hope no one thinks I'm being biased in my decision. Here goes:

Phase 1:


I believe Songbird could have her shields up before the speedsters reach the mystics.
I believe Agatha is crushed.
I believe Magdelene could teleport Morgan, Songbird, and herself before the speedsters hit.
I don't believe Spider-Woman would have that easy of a time with Speed Demon.
I believe either one of the two speedsters could take out Dr. Druid, here.
I believe the two speedsters, plus Mr. Fantastic and Gamora, would/could fight and possibly win a battle with Spider-Woman, Cap, Beast, and Blizzard. I'll call that part of the round a draw for now.
I believe Dr. Spectrum could encase Firestar before she did any damage.
End of round: Firestar is in a force bubble, and Agatha Harkness and Dr. Druid are out.


Phase 2:


I believe, though it comes later in the match, that Ultron could take Blizzard...but not anyone else, as they weren't teleported near the opposing team.
I believe Morgan could turn Spectrum into a toad.
Could Cap decapitate Ultron? I'm not sure, on this one. I'll call this one a draw.
Since Cap has attacked Ultron, and Blizzard has been teleported to attack Spectrum, then that leaves Spider-Woman and the Beast to face Mr. Fantastic, Gamora, and the two speedsters. I think Spider-Woman and Beast go down.
End of round: Cap, Ultron (both because of the draw), Blizzard, Spider-Woman, the Beast, and Spectrum are out.


Who's left so far?

Siddon: Morgan Le Fey, Magdelene, Songbird, Firestar
Grazzt: Mr. Fantastic, Gamora, Speed Demon, Whirlwind

If the aforementioned eight had to battle, I think the team with the two air-born players, the teleporter, and the mystic could beat the team with the martial artist, the stretcher, and the two speedsters.

So--and I've looked at this many different ways--I give this battle to Siddon.

Siddon wins the match, 7-6.

[venuscameback]

I don't envy that you had to make that decision, JD.

I do think it's cool that you explained your thinking so thoroughly. Participants may agree/disagree with individual bullet points and/or your final decision but at least they'll know why you made the call you did.

One thing I would suggest is that you post your analysis and give participants a short time (even if it's only one hour) in which to clarify, rebutt or query any of your points before making a final decision. It allows them chance to note anything they think you overlooked and as your vote is crucial in such situations that seems fair.

You have my sympathy, Grazzt (even though I voted for Siddon) - it must be horrible to lose like this after a tied vote.

[Siddon]

So just so I get this straight the seading is

1. Atom Basher/Hannah
2. Siddon
3. Grazzt
4. Sean Whitmore
5. Jared Humphreys
6. Will S

So Grazzt and I will get to do this all over again in the Quarter finals unless there is an upset?

[Grazzt]

Congrats on the close win, Siddon.

You have my sympathy, Grazzt (even though I voted for Siddon) - it must be horrible to lose like this after a tied vote.

Eh, not really. My strategy was sloppy this round. I'm surprised I did as well as I did, frankly.

So Grazzt and I will get to do this all over again in the Quarter finals unless there is an upset?

I'd hardly call it an upset. Will S has a good team.

[Siddon]

good match Grazzt