When Did Donna Troy Find Out About Batman's Identity?

[90'sCartoonMan]

This has been bugging me for a few years, actually, but I never thought to ask it (and if this is in the wrong forum, I apologize).

In 52, Donna Troy is learning the history of the DC Universe, including backgrounds and secret identities of everyone. She learns about the things Batman has gone through, and she doesn't seem surprised at all to find out that Batman is Bruce Wayne (of course, showing that would take too much time anyway).

So did Donna know of his secret before? I remember an issue of The Titans (late 90's series) when the original five go to this island and Donna gets a glimpse of Dick's parents and says that he looks more like his father than he does Bruce. So did Dick Grayson at some point tell her about Batman?

Dick didn't tell all the Titans Batman's identity, right? In JLA #50, Batman reveals his identity to Wally West for the first time (Wally knew that Robin/Nightwing was really Dick Grayson but nothing about Batman's identity, or at least that's what it seemed like).

So...what's the deal? Really minor question, I know, but I've been wondering.

[Buried Alien]

I think it dates back to the Silver Age. The original Teen Titans were all privy to each other's civilian identities, so if Donna knew that Robin was Dick Grayson, then she naturally also knew that Batman was Bruce Wayne.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Shellhead]

I think it dates back to the Silver Age. The original Teen Titans were all privy to each other's civilian identities, so if Donna knew that Robin was Dick Grayson, then she naturally also knew that Batman was Bruce Wayne.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That reminds me, Deathstroke discovered Robin's identity way back during the Judas Contract storyline... theoretically, Deathstroke should know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, right?

[Buried Alien]

That reminds me, Deathstroke discovered Robin's identity way back during the Judas Contract storyline... theoretically, Deathstroke should know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, right?

He should, but it was never followed up on. With Post-COIE, Post-ZERO HOUR, Post-KINGDOM, Post-INFINITE CRISIS retcons in play, however, there's no telling for sure until a writer chooses to make use of this point.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[trickster]

Probably been swept under the rug, and it's all for the better. Deathstroke has been shown to being able to kick Batman's ass. We'd be looking at something worse than Bane.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I think it dates back to the Silver Age. The original Teen Titans were all privy to each other's civilian identities, so if Donna knew that Robin was Dick Grayson, then she naturally also knew that Batman was Bruce Wayne.

Then why was Wally so surprised to find out that Batman was Bruce Wayne in JLA #50? Was that just a goof on Waid's part (or maybe Flash wasn't as shocked as I'm remembering it)?

Probably been swept under the rug, and it's all for the better. Deathstroke has been shown to being able to kick Batman's ass. We'd be looking at something worse than Bane.

It hasn't exactly gone away. Deathstroke knowing about Nightwing, that is. When he appeared in Devin Grayson's run, he kept calling him "Grayson".

Deathstroke isn't exactly the most vindictive guy out there, though. Green Arrow stabbed him in the socket during Identity Crisis, and he didn't go after Oliver Queen until someone hired him to do it.

[Jack]

Then why was Wally so surprised to find out that Batman was Bruce Wayne in JLA #50? Was that just a goof on Waid's part (or maybe Flash wasn't as shocked as I'm remembering it)?He wasn't. I think he was pretty shocked about Superman having a secret identity, though. If I'm remembering right, Wally just sort of grins while Plastic Man and Kyle are amazed.

[Scavenger]

Then why was Wally so surprised to find out that Batman was Bruce Wayne in JLA #50? Was that just a goof on Waid's part (or maybe Flash wasn't as shocked as I'm remembering it)?
.


It was an editorial dictate at the time, that no one knew who Batman was other than Superman and the immidate bat family..even though that made no sense re: Flash's best friend is Nightwing. He knows Nightwing is Dick Grayson, but doesn't kinow the name of the guy who raised him.

[Buried Alien]

It was an editorial dictate at the time, that no one knew who Batman was other than Superman and the immidate bat family..even though that made no sense re: Flash's best friend is Nightwing. He knows Nightwing is Dick Grayson, but doesn't kinow the name of the guy who raised him.

It's especially ludicrous in light of the fact that Dick Grayson wasn't some anonymous nobody, but the ward of Bruce Wayne. Being the ward of the wealthiest man in Gotham City (and one of the wealthiest on Earth-DCU) will get you a certain degree of name recognition.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Mirrorball Man]

- Hey Wally, you know... that guy who raised me?
- That Bruce Wayne guy?
- Yeah. He's totally not Batman.
- He's... well, I didn't think he was!
- Well, he's not. He's 100% not Batman.
- I'll try to remember that, you know, just in case I ever join the JLA...
- And that Clark Kent dude? Not Superman.
- Clark Kent???
- Yeah. He wears glasses! Does Superman wear glasses? I think not.
- Alright.
- I'm not Robin, by the way.

[Scavenger]

It's especially ludicrous in light of the fact that Dick Grayson wasn't some anonymous nobody, but the ward of Bruce Wayne. Being the ward of the wealthiest man in Gotham City (and one of the wealthiest on Earth-DCU) will get you a certain degree of name recognition.
[/COLOR]

Not to mention the whole dating the alien supermodel bit. All of which explains why I think the whole idea of Dick joining the BludHaven police force is ludicrous. He's the DCU equivilent of a Kenedy kid.

[Sean Walsh]

Who DOESN'T know Batman's ID these days? Memories of very big long and vocal "WHO KNOWS BATMAN'S IDENTITY" threads on these boards are coming back to me now.... ;) :p

[DonC]

That reminds me, Deathstroke discovered Robin's identity way back during the Judas Contract storyline... theoretically, Deathstroke should know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, right?


I believe in Deathstroke's series there was a 4-parter where Slade asked Batman for help with something and he did know who he was.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

- Hey Wally, you know... that guy who raised me?
- That Bruce Wayne guy?
- Yeah. He's totally not Batman.
- He's... well, I didn't think he was!
- Well, he's not. He's 100% not Batman.
- I'll try to remember that, you know, just in case I ever join the JLA...
- And that Clark Kent dude? Not Superman.
- Clark Kent???
- Yeah. He wears glasses! Does Superman wear glasses? I think not.
- Alright.
- I'm not Robin, by the way.

That's beautiful, man. ... er, Mirrorball Man.

[Jack]

Deathstroke knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne, he just doesn't care.

[The Mirrorball Man]

That's beautiful, man. ... er, Mirrorball Man.
I'm not the Mirrorball Man. You're thinking of somebody else. Me = Not at all The Mirrorball Man.

[Sean Whitmore]

If Deathstroke knew Batman's identity, he would have absolutely no good reason not to have tried to kill him already. Even that lame excuse all uber-assassins have (I don't kill if nobody's paid me to) doesn't hold up, because it wouldn't take Slade 10 seconds to find an interested backer in a Bat-assassination. Luthor alone would fund it with pocket change for kicks.


SEAN

[Magnificent Bastard]

If Deathstroke knew Batman's identity, he would have absolutely no good reason not to have tried to kill him already. Even that lame excuse all uber-assassins have (I don't kill if nobody's paid me to) doesn't hold up, because it wouldn't take Slade 10 seconds to find an interested backer in a Bat-assassination. Luthor alone would fund it with pocket change for kicks.


SEAN
You! With the common sense, stop that!

[90'sCartoonMan]

It was an editorial dictate at the time, that no one knew who Batman was other than Superman and the immidate bat family..even though that made no sense re: Flash's best friend is Nightwing. He knows Nightwing is Dick Grayson, but doesn't kinow the name of the guy who raised him.

That explains why Batman was so uppity about Robin wanting to reveal his identity to Young Justice (and even then only let Tim show them his face).

Dick's identity isn't that well-guarded. I mean, he practically told those mobsters who he was when he was working with them.

If Deathstroke knew Batman's identity, he would have absolutely no good reason not to have tried to kill him already.

Your reasons make absolute sense. The only thing I can think of that's keeping Slade from offing the Bat is JLA retaliation. Why kill a friend of Superman's when there are other well-paying and lower profile people to whack?

[Sean Whitmore]

Dick's identity isn't that well-guarded. I mean, he practically told those mobsters who he was when he was working with them.


Yeah, that was a piece of genius, that story. Go undercover under your real name. Yeah, no, that won't affect anybody but you, Dick. :rolleyes:


Your reasons make absolute sense. The only thing I can think of that's keeping Slade from offing the Bat is JLA retaliation. Why kill a friend of Superman's when there are other well-paying and lower profile people to whack?


That's a good point, and probably exactly the reason he doesn't go after Batman. But it all goes back to why Slade does what he does. I can't imagine it's just the money; after several multi-million dollar hits, he probably has too much to count anyway. Some of it has to be about maintaining his rep above all others, or just proving to himself who's best. And if that's the case, he can't duck Bats forever (or the rest of the JLA, for that matter).


SEAN

[Lorendiac]

It was an editorial dictate at the time, that no one knew who Batman was other than Superman and the immidate bat family..even though that made no sense re: Flash's best friend is Nightwing. He knows Nightwing is Dick Grayson, but doesn't kinow the name of the guy who raised him.

That is the story I have heard, yep. It took me awhile to become aware of that, because I was reading the Wolfman/Perez run on the New Teen Titans back in the early 1980s, and it was made very clear that everybody else on the team knew Dick Grayson was Robin (later Nightwing), and I believe it was either stated or implied that they also knew his legal guardian, Bruce Wayne, was Batman.

I'm not sure about all of his fellow Titans of that era, but Starfire certainly knew -- there was at least one occasion when she flew to Wayne Manor looking for Dick, and Jason Todd opened the door and went into shock as he found himself staring at her scantily-clad, statuesque self, and then Alfred came along and assured Starfire that Jason (whom she'd never met) knew all about the secret identity stuff and she could speak freely in front of him.

As I understand it, and as Scavenger alluded to, sometime in the 1990s I think Denny O'Neil (during his long reign as the Lord High Batman Editor) laid down a rule that Dick Grayson's friends outside of the Bat-books didn't know a thing about Batman's secret identity, even if they knew Dick's. I once wrote the following, regarding how I suppose that must have worked at Titans meetings:

***** EXCERPT FROM AN OLD POST *****

Dick Grayson was Bruce Wayne's ward during his teenage years; Robin was Batman's sidekick and protege fighting crime in Gotham; if you know Dick was the first Robin, how hard can it possibly be to connect the dots? (Tim Drake sure didn't have any trouble with it after he figured out Dick and the first Robin were the exact same guy, and he was probably still measuring his age in single digits at the time!)

However, I have heard on the Net that for a long time in the post-Crisis era, the editorial types on the Batman titles were basically saying it was very very very hard to connect the dots. (Unless your name was Tim Drake, evidently.)

What I've heard is that the official policy over at the Bat-books was supposed to be: "What happens in the Titans books has nothing to do with us! You see, Dick is under firm orders to tell all his friends and teammates that his legal guardian, Bruce Wayne, is just the rich guy who bankrolls Batman's entire operation, but that Batman himself is someone else entirely whose identity must remain secret!"

I've tried to imagine what that would have been like. It makes no sense to me. My best guess is that it went like this back in the Silver Age days, whenever the Titans were having a regular meeting:


DICK: I've got to run, guys! My mentor needs me to help him run down leads on the Riddler's latest scheme back home in Gotham! By the way, have I mentioned lately that my mentor is NOT the same guy as my legal guardian, Bruce Wayne?

ALL THE OTHER TITANS (rolling their eyes and speaking in chorus): Yes, Dick. At every weekly meeting for the past two years. We think we've all grasped the point by now.

DICK: Great! Just wanted to make sure you didn't get the wrong idea!

[He leaves, while all the other Titans exchange glances and wonder if Batman is really so clueless that he thinks you can have your sidekick reveal his own identity to his friends without compromising your own in the process? But they're too soft-hearted to break the news to Dick and Bruce regarding just how painfully obvious the truth is!]

[Lorendiac]

If Deathstroke knew Batman's identity, he would have absolutely no good reason not to have tried to kill him already. Even that lame excuse all uber-assassins have (I don't kill if nobody's paid me to) doesn't hold up, because it wouldn't take Slade 10 seconds to find an interested backer in a Bat-assassination. Luthor alone would fund it with pocket change for kicks.


SEAN

Back in the early-to-mid 80s, when Marv Wolfman was pretty much the only guy who ever wrote dialogue for Deathstroke, he had Slade Wilson proudly assert, more than once, that he never accepted a contract (for assassination) that would "harm our national security." After all, he was a former U.S. Army officer.

Now, I always thought it was a little weird that he could kidnap and/or try to kill Titans from time to time without feeling that Uncle Sam's National Security would be at any greater risk without them. But perhaps he felt the Titans were second-stringers, of very little importance compared to the big guns in the JLA?

So, at least with Wolfman writing the guy, it was quite possible that Slade Wilson's logic went something like this:

I don't personally hate Dick Grayson, but if I ever happen to kill that schmuck, the USA will get along just fine without him! But if I kill Batman, he won't be able to prevent Ra's al Ghul's next genocidal scheme, or pull the JLA's fat out of the fire the next time they have a perplexing mystery that needs to be solved in five minutes in order to Save The World, and then billions of human beings could die -- including most of my fellow U.S. citizens! Can't have that! Bruce Wayne is Off Limits for reasons of National Security!"

[titanfan]

If Deathstroke knew Batman's identity, he would have absolutely no good reason not to have tried to kill him already.

Well, the fact that he's the Batman may be reason enough. :)

[90'sCartoonMan]

As I understand it, and as Scavenger alluded to, sometime in the 1990s I think Denny O'Neil (during his long reign as the Lord High Batman Editor) laid down a rule that Dick Grayson's friends outside of the Bat-books didn't know a thing about Batman's secret identity, even if they knew Dick's.

Ah, that explains where the problem started. Thanks, Lorendiac!

Dick Grayson was Bruce Wayne's ward during his teenage years; Robin was Batman's sidekick and protege fighting crime in Gotham; if you know Dick was the first Robin, how hard can it possibly be to connect the dots? (Tim Drake sure didn't have any trouble with it after he figured out Dick and the first Robin were the exact same guy, and he was probably still measuring his age in single digits at the time!)

To be fair, though, I don't think it's THAT obvious that Bruce Wayne is Batman if you know that Dick Grayson is Robin. I mean, sure, that's the logical conclusion (and we ourselves have known it for so long, we can't see it being anyone else), but if Dick told his friends his mentor isn't the guy who adopted him, wouldn't they give him the benefit of the doubt?

Look at Tim Drake. A year or so ago, if someone found out that Robin is Tim Drake, their natural conclusion would be that Batman is Jack Drake (he WAS rich, he could fund a crusade against crime). I remember an issue of Young Justice where Impulse assumed that Batman was Robin's father.

It would seem pretty far fetched if Robin said "No, my father isn't Batman, Batman is a guy whose identity I happened to figure out and then convinced to let me be his partner. My family knows nothing about me being Robin."

Doesn't sound too believable, but it IS the truth. So if Dick told his Titans that Batman had nothing to do with Bruce Wayne, it's possible they'd go along with it.

[Sean Whitmore]

Look at Tim Drake. A year or so ago, if someone found out that Robin is Tim Drake, their natural conclusion would be that Batman is Jack Drake (he WAS rich, he could fund a crusade against crime). I remember an issue of Young Justice where Impulse assumed that Batman was Robin's father.


EXCELLENT point, 90's. You're right, it sounds completely ridiculous, but in Tim's case it's actually the truth. Who's to say Dick couldn't have had a similar situation?


SEAN