Geoff Johns/IC his first failure?

[david r]

It seems that Geoff Johns could do no wrong. Many fans consider him the definitive writer for the Flash. And his other runs like JSA are highly regarded.

Yet I've found a certain disappointment in Geoff Johns' work on Infinite Crisis and I have to ask:

Is Infinite Crisis his first failure? Or at least a disappointment to many and Geoff Johns' first misstep??

[handOFfate]

No, I think people started seeing faults in Geoff John's writing before Infinite Crisis. For example, Teen Titans went from being a suspensful team-orientated book to being the Superboy/Robin show. Likewise, his Flash run notably started to sputter later (in my opinion, after the "Ignition" arc), and ended with a dud story. The quality of JSA also went down. The problem is that he stretched himself out WAAAYYY too much, and he tends to stay on his titles too long.
Infinite Crisis disappointed a lot of people, but it has its fans, too. I thought it was loads better than Crisis on Infinite Earths. And considering that he had to put up with a lot of editorial input and changes, he did a good job.
I wish Johns would stay on two titles so he doesn't run out of ideas. I'd be happier if he was just writing Green Lantern and Teen Titans.

[EZMOHR]

Not a dissapointment...Not a mis-step. I enjoyed it, and I had a good time reading it. I have not read a totally horrible Geoff Johns story yet...although his Avengers stuff for me was nothing special.

Johns is a superb writer, and IC was very entertaining for me.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Geoff Johns is DA MAN. He is the guy who can do no wrong at DC. Its just that people heard that Infinite Crisis was gonna be a sequel of sorts to Crisis on Infinite Earths and saw Johns name and thought: " This guy will be f-ckin brillant! "

Of course Johns had the entire DCU at his fingertips and was trying to write a huge Universial storyline that would change & shape the DCU for the next 20 years. It was bound to have some spots in it. Some fans accepted it and some haven't. I do think expectations on Johns talents were so up there that many had a hard time accepting that Geoff Johns is human.

He could have stayed on Flash longer. In fact I wish he had . He had plans to do a villains issue dedicated to a rouge ( whos name escapes me) . But he left that series on top. He gave some great arcs as we saw the " Secrets of Barry Allen " and " Rouge War " which was a slam bang finish to that run.

His JSA has made me a fan and he can do good team issues. Teen Titans even if it did focus on Superboy ( because he was a main member and lost his solo series by then) has been a great monthly read since it launched.

Of course Johns is now starting to hit his stride on Green Lantern so thats another notch on his belt. The man is just...ON. He may not really do awesome work each month but he is solid.

[shaxper]

I think the fault was less Johns' and more DC's. IC is an entertaining story but it had to deliver on one of the industry's biggest hypes of all time, plus Johns had to deal with last minute orders from above to change major things (i.e. the death of Dick Grayson). I think this was a tremendously difficult assignment for anyone to take on. No one was going to satisfy the fan base if DC promised that big changes would happen and then decided that very little should change at all. That's not Johns' fault. What he wrote, he wrote well. Sure it was splotchy and made sudden leaps at points, but Johns had to write a larger than life, universe changing event affecting the entire DCU in only seven issues. The original Crisis got 12. I won't swear up and down that Johns is a perfect writer, but I feel he did the best any writer could have done on IC. I don't blame him for our disappointment. That was the result of some poor decision-making at DC.

[Ontir]

I don't think it was a failure, but it was rushed. It coudl've used another 3 issues, if not 5.

[Babylon23]

Personally, Johns can still do no wrong in my eyes. While IC wasn't the greatest story ever written, I enjoyed it immensely. The ending did seem a little rushed, but I still enjoyed it.

I also never saw the drop in quality on JSA. While the IC crossover issues weren't as good as the 70 issues before them, they were still solid. I think there was just a higher expectation given the quality of the series before that.

I do think his stories suffered a little while he was writing IC, but I never disliked any of the stories he published. Now that IC has finished, I think he's been on fire. TT is especially good since the OYL leap forward. I can't wait for the JSA relaunch.

[Gingold]

Not sure if IC was Johns's first failure, but it's definitely his biggest one. The Day of Judgment crossover he wrote was not so good either. I thought Green Lantern: Rebirth was overlong, and filled with too much fan-fiction wankery, but at least it accomplished its intended purpose. JSA, Flash, Titans, Hawkman and Avengers all had their flaws, but in balance, were more good than bad, I think.

IC devolved into an embarrassing mess of an event, and it's a shame, because it started in a grand fashion, with a really good first issue. I don't think it's fair to place all the blame on Johns, though. Editorial's inability to get this book produced on time, Jimenez's inconsistent job on art, and whoever thought that Ivan Reis was a worthy fill-in artist all need to stand up and be counted. Perez and Ordway did a nice job with their parts, I must admit.

[trickster]

Don't know if it was his, but the ending was a letdown. I was so pumped until issue 3, but then something started smelling wrong.

[Kevinroc]

Day of Judgment.

[Lex]

The Day of Judgment crossover he wrote was not so good either.This one I'd say is Geoff's first failure. He was too new as a comics writer to do a crossover like this any justice. He did put some entertaining moments in it, but the characterization for everyone was WAY off.

After that, I think Geoff hit a good stride. His runs on Flash and JSA were always good. And he produced several great series at Marvel (Morlocks, Vision, The Thing mini, and his Avengers run). Plus, wasn't it around this time that he started Hawkman? That was good too.

Then, with his DC exclusive, came Teen Titans and Green Lantern: Rebirth. Both of those books were extremely popular, but I felt they lacked the quality of his previous work. And as he started gearing up for Infinite Crisis, the quality of all his books (including Flash and JSA) began to decline. It was like the elements needed to build up to IC were taking priority over the regular stories he was writing.

After IC, he's kinda back to being good again... though 52 is overshadowing some of his work. Once 52 is done (and provided he doesn't take on anything else), I'd imagine he could once again be a really, really good writer.

[Paul Newell]

I'm sure the failure that would come to mind would be his run on Avengers, which he himself has mentioned as not being his best work AND started a decline in sales for the title.

Certainly not a mini series which has as many people saying they liked it as didn't like it and sold phenomenal numbers...As will the hardcover.

[Samurai]

I'm sure the failure that would come to mind would be his run on Avengers, which he himself has mentioned as not being his best work AND started a decline in sales for the title.

Certainly not a mini series which has as many people saying they liked it as didn't like it and sold phenomenal numbers...As will the hardcover.
I totally agree... his Avengers story was so bad it made me drop the series, and I'd been collecting since #1!

In contrast, I absolutely LOVED IC! It was a worthy successor to Crisis, and that is NOT an easy thing to do. There were a ton of "holy cow!" moments in it for me, and it has made me drop even more Marvel titles so that I could get more of the OYL books instead. DC has always been my favorite universe, and IC was a fanboy's dream. I suppose if you don't know the DC universe and characters very well, it seemed less interesting and full of characters coming and going like crazy. But there was hardly a character in the entire series I couldn't name, so I loved it!

[Paul Newell]

I think it comes down to what criteria people look for in comics nowadays.

For me, I'm a very shallow fellow, it comes down to whether it entertains me or not...And Infinite Crisis accomplished that.

I also enjoyed the Star Wars prequels, Independence Day and The last few James Bond movies which should tell you just how shallow. :)

[Buried Alien]

I think it comes down to what criteria people look for in comics nowadays.

For me, I'm a very shallow fellow, it comes down to whether it entertains me or not...And Infinite Crisis accomplished that.

I also enjoyed the Star Wars prequels, Independence Day and The last few James Bond movies which should tell you just how shallow. :)

Not shallow, Paul...more like still able to remember what you became interested in these various things for.

Too many have forgotten, and that's why they no longer take joy in these things.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Zenith23]

Not shallow, Paul...more like still able to remember what you became interested in these various things for.

Too many have forgotten, and that's why they no longer take joy in these things.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

If poor art and dreadful writing give you joy your welcome to it. This is Johns worst work to date, mostly he's ok. Whether it's his fault for how I.C turned can be argued, personally I would blame the editorial staff. When you look at DCs back catalogue and see Watchmen, V for Vendetta, COIE, DK Returns, Batman Year One, Kingdom Come etc... you know DC can do much better then this.

[Kara Zor El]

I don't see it as a failure but one of the most enjoyable comic stories I've ever read. I think it's a good thing that lots of people don't like it that just shows it wasn't trying to please everybody. It had a direction, style and tone that was far from the middle ground. So it's either close to your taste or far from it.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Johns has certainly had far bigger duds than Infinite Crisis ever was, this just happened to be his most high profile gig to date, so more people noticed that it wasn't as good as it could have been.

[algertman]

WOW! You posted the same thing on Newsarama :rolleyes:

I personaly enjoyed it alot. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it's a failure

[Buried Alien]

If poor art and dreadful writing give you joy your welcome to it.

What if I didn't think the art was so poor or the writing so dreadful?

Your opinion does not necessarily equal fact.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sean Walsh]

I also enjoyed the Star Wars prequels, Independence Day and The last few James Bond movies which should tell you just how shallow. :)

Just say you liked Revenge of the Sith the most, and we'll forgive you for........well, for most of that (not sure about ID4 ;) :p )

[jerrymcl89]

I think mega-crossovers like IC are inherently almost guaranteed to disappoint, for various reasons. I thought Johns did about as good a job as can be done with that sort of event.

[Kevinroc]

What if I didn't think the art was so poor or the writing so dreadful?

Your opinion does not necessarily equal fact.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Some of the art was good. Quite a bit of the art was poor and definitely rushed. As an example, I couldn't stand Jerry Ordway's art in the mini and I'm usually quite a fan of his art. And even his recent JSA issue looked good in my eyes but his Infinite Crisis art was rushed.

[Jack Zodiac]

What if I didn't think the art was so poor or the writing so dreadful?

Your opinion does not necessarily equal fact.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It does on the Internet. On the Internet, everyone's right, no matter how wrong they are.

I liked Infinite Crisis, even if it was a giant mess. There's a whole lot DC could've done without, like blaming everything from Jason Todd's resurrection to Empress mysteriously becoming white on Superboy Prime beating on his universe's walls. Or, like holding to the ridiculous idea that after this, there'll be no more alternate universes, just like there were no more alternate universes after the original Crisis. :rolleyes: But at the same time, it shook up their comic world, which was getting stale. Unlike Marvel, DC doesn't have a company wide cross over once or twice a year. Lots of action, lots of casualties, lots of characters I'm gonna' miss, even with the nifty little reset button they set up at the end of the series. Like any work, there were some flaws, but overall, I was satisfied with Infinite Crisis.

[titanfan]

Not even close to being a failure. As far as crossovers go, this is the best one DC has done in years. It might not have been the homerun "best series ever" that some people were hoping for, but it was still in the "good" category to me.

That said, if this were a failure in my book--it wouldn't even be close to being his first. All writers write some stinkers now and then. Off the top of my head his first story arc on Flash was pretty bad, as was the last 6 months or so of his JSA run.

[siuntres]

the series should have been longer than 7 issues. Too many things were compressed to make it o the finish line. I see the failures of IC as more editorial than the writers fault.

Geoff was shoving 10lbs of story into a 5lb bag.

[shyguy]

First failure? Bwa-ha-ha!

I re-read Rogue War the other day and liked it even less than I did when I first read it. It's a bunch of Johns cliches rolled up into one; barely coherent at that.

Green Lantern Rebirth was full of stuff that was either really, really dumb or just didn't make sense.

The Green Lantern series itself has been pretty boring.

He turned the Young Justice characters into pale imitations of their predecessors in Teen Titans.

If anything, Johns has been undergoing a fairly stead decline ever since, oh, halfway through his run on Flash. I think it's a combination of him being a fairly run-of-the-mill writer in the first place and being stretched too thin besides. His earlier stuff on Flash and JSA is way better (Blitz is still one of my favorite Flash storyarcs, although Zoom was watered down immediately afterward; I like JSA until Goyer leaves).

He still seems to do good work when he's collaborating with a stronger writer, like Busiek on the Superman books and Heinberg on JLA.

Oh, and I thought IC was a mess on every conceivable level. Barely even a story.

[Lex]

I'm sure the failure that would come to mind would be his run on Avengers, which he himself has mentioned as not being his best work AND started a decline in sales for the title.Really? I'm surprised. I really enjoyed his Avengers run. I thought he was a great successor for what Busiek had done with the book and actually moved the concept forward a bit.

But I don't think you can always point to sales as an indicator of what makes a good book. Avengers Dissassembled sold a ton, but a lot of fans would agree that the story was a complete waste of money.

[Deus ex Chris]

Really? I'm surprised. I really enjoyed his Avengers run. I thought he was a great successor for what Busiek had done with the book and actually moved the concept forward a bit.
I agree. His Avengers works has to be his most mature mainstream work to date. Everything else he does has these overly childish, fanboy-esque elements to them, excluding the work he's done in collaboration with another writer--and that woud be JSA in particular.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Geoff Johns had many failures prior to IC.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Hm, I really do like Geoff Johns, but I think he works better on smaller character stories (like the Rogue Profiles and certain JSA issues) than huge universe-sweeping events.

That's why I consider his treatment of Bart Allen in the pages of Teen Titans his first real failure. I expected him to add to the character, not make him less unique.

[NotSuper]

"Was Infinite Crisis a failure?" That's a rather subjective question, isn't it? It certainly wasn't a failure commercially (seeing as it made DC a bundle of money). Creatively speaking...well, that's a little harder to answer. Despite what some people may think, there is no universal standard that determines "good work" and "bad work." (Even if there was, no one would know about it or be able to prove it.) All a writer can really do is get most of the fans to like his/her work, because at least a few will hate it. Did this event succeed in that respect? From what *I* have observed (among various boards and sites) the critical response seems more positive than negative, though I've heard critiques even from people that liked the story. Certainly the story has many detractors as well (they're certainly not a "vocal minority"--is it just me or is that term very condescending?), many of whom bring up valid points about facts being wrong and continuity being out of whack. Honestly, there really is no objective answer here.

As for whether I liked it--I did, but I thought it could've been much better. The story was too compressed and I was kind of pissed that Superboy-Prime went evil. Other than that, it was a good story--just not great. I kind of wanted the story to be less black and white. You know, with the multiverse survivors being presented on an equal moral ground as the mainstream DCU characters. Once Superboy punched off the first head that was all over, though. Too bad.

[Paul Newell]

Really? I'm surprised. I really enjoyed his Avengers run. I thought he was a great successor for what Busiek had done with the book and actually moved the concept forward a bit.
I didn't mind his run...It took Chuck Austens following issues to get me to drop Avengers...But it was more about the style he was asked to write in that lessened it. He said so himself somewhere online when commenting about his first arc. The story was originally 3 issues, but he was asked to extend it to 6 so it would fit nicely into a trade paperback. So he cut the issues in half. I think he also mentioned that was why he ended up leaving the series earlier than expected...He didn't feel comfortable working to that format.
But I don't think you can always point to sales as an indicator of what makes a good book. Avengers Dissassembled sold a ton, but a lot of fans would agree that the story was a complete waste of money.
Here's where I show how bad my taste is even further...I had no interest in reading Disassembled, but I was in Melbourne a few months ago and looking for something to read so I picked up the trades of Disassembled and House of M....I enjoyed them both. :)

[Paul Newell]

Just say you liked Revenge of the Sith the most, and we'll forgive you for........well, for most of that (not sure about ID4 ;) :p )
Hmmmm...I probably liked them all equally as much as each other....But then that's because I look at them as a whole rather than as individual movies.

[Paul Newell]

From what *I* have observed (among various boards and sites) the critical response seems more positive than negative, though I've heard critiques even from people that liked the story. Certainly the story has many detractors as well (they're certainly not a "vocal minority"--is it just me or is that term very condescending?), many of whom bring up valid points about facts being wrong and continuity being out of whack. Honestly, there really is no objective answer here.
From what I've observed on these boards...Including polls people have posted, its worked out to be about 60% liked and 40% disliked.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

From what I've observed on these boards...Including polls people have posted, its worked out to be about 60% liked and 40% disliked.

That sounds about right. Because I absolutely loved 60% it and was disappointed with about 40% myself.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Geoff Johns is 90% hype, 10% hack.

[NotSuper]

That sounds about right. Because I absolutely loved 60% it and was disappointed with about 40% myself.
Sounds right to me too. If the series had been longer I think it would've been much better. Also, much more could've been done with the Earth-2 Superman.

[Jack Zodiac]

Geoff Johns is 90% hype, 10% hack.

What's Bendis? 77% hype, 23% hack? No, no... he's gotta' be more hack than that. But he's overhyped more than Geoff Johns. The math doesn't work! Is Bendis a writer and a half? 75% hype, 75% hack? Damn you and your numbers!

[ChaosBurnFlame]

What's Bendis? 77% hype, 23% hack? No, no... he's gotta' be more hack than that. But he's overhyped more than Geoff Johns. The math doesn't work! Is Bendis a writer and a half? 75% hype, 75% hack? Damn you and your numbers!
Actually, I have heard more defenses to Johns and his horrid writing than I've ever heard for Bendis's.

[Sean Walsh]

IMHO: Geoff did and put more in 7 issues than Bendis has in 6 issues of every TPB-ready storyarc I've ever read of his.

And that's a bash in one regard, not a blanket one. Bendis tells great stories.........but with comic prices these days, I don't really care for the fact that it takes him a long time to get around to finishing those stories...

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Actually, I have heard more defenses to Johns and his horrid writing than I've ever heard for Bendis's.

Please visit the Avengers board.

[Evan Lanctot]

The only problem with IC was that it crammed too much into too few issues.

I think Johns does tend to spread himself too thin at times. But hey, he probably needs the dough. Living in LA isn't cheap!:D

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Please visit the Avengers board.
Please try to have a conversation about Johns's work sometime.

I hear him praised as 'the guy that fixed Hawkman', but really.. all he did was what any Hawkman writer did before him: Take the parts he liked, ignored the rest. He didn't 'fix' Hawk continuity, he just gets first prize for using the most puzzle pieces.

Don't even get me started on Superboy and Impulse. Johns has, ADMITTED, IN PUBLIC no less, taht the reason he does retcons aren't from editorial mandates, not to help storylines along, but because he, Geoff Johns personally, didn't like a character, and he changed him just so he, Geoff Johns, could like him.

He admitted this in the San Diego Comic Con over a year ago when asked, point blank, why he did it.

"I didn't like him, so I changed him until I liked him" were his exact words.

It's also the exact words that most fanfiction writers use too.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Please try to have a conversation about Johns's work sometime.

Please have a sense of humor. Or rent one. Whichever.

I hear him praised as 'the guy that fixed Hawkman', but really.. all he did was what any Hawkman writer did before him: Take the parts he liked, ignored the rest. He didn't 'fix' Hawk continuity, he just gets first prize for using the most puzzle pieces.

Don't even get me started on Superboy and Impulse. Johns has, ADMITTED, IN PUBLIC no less, taht the reason he does retcons aren't from editorial mandates, not to help storylines along, but because he, Geoff Johns personally, didn't like a character, and he changed him just so he, Geoff Johns, could like him.

He admitted this in the San Diego Comic Con over a year ago when asked, point blank, why he did it.

"I didn't like him, so I changed him until I liked him" were his exact words.

It's also the exact words that most fanfiction writers use too.

Well, duh, doesn't every writer do the exact same thing? I wasn't a big fan of his Hawkman retcon, as I rather enjoyed the HAWKWORLD Katar Hol, but there's no denying that he streamlined Hawkman's continuity to the point where he was actually a viable character once again.

As for Superboy and Impulse, you're talking about two characters who were desperately in need of some fixing. I'm not about to claim that Johns' "fixes" were perfect, but neither one has been reknowned as a "likable" character since they were introduced. Personally, I never much liked either character either before or after Johns' changes, but I can at least see why he did what he did.

Every writer subtely or otherwise changes characters a bit to fit their conception of what that character should be. Compare Denny O'Neil's Batman to Frank Miller's. The two barely resemble one another, but each has its respective fans.

It sounds to me as if you merely didn't like the way in which Johns changed Superboy and Impulse, and that's personal preference, not the basis of a sound critique of a writer.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Actually, my basis of critique has to do with the fact that he changed the characters for his own personal satisfaction, not because of any other reason. That is childish to do with other writer's legacies.

[TommyV]

What a ridiculous, unnecessary, insulting thread. To call IC a "failure" is just inane, whether you personally liked it or not. Why on Earth would you pick on a writer like Johns, who consistently entertains us on a regular basis?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

What a ridiculous, unnecessary, insulting thread. To call IC a "failure" is just inane, whether you personally liked it or not. Why on Earth would you pick on a writer like Johns, who consistently entertains us on a regular basis?
he certainly doesn't entertain me. And he isn't immune from criticism. No writer or artist should ever be immune to criticism.

[TommyV]

he certainly doesn't entertain me. And he isn't immune from criticism. No writer or artist should ever be immune to criticism.

Criticism is one thing. Mean-spirited troll-fests are quite another.

[Shellhead]

Actually, I have heard more defenses to Johns and his horrid writing than I've ever heard for Bendis's.

There is still a blanket warning posted at the Avengers board, listing 32 CBR posters (including myself), warning us to stop posting like jerks there. Some of the people on the list were constantly attacking Bendis, while others were constantly defending Bendis. Either way, Bendis is certainly a much more controversial writer than Johns, at least here at CBR.

[Babylon23]

I think the problem here lies in the initial question asked. The book sold phenominally well, restructured the DCU in exactly the way the company wanted, drew new reader attention to DC, and served as a springboard for launching new titles. So it achieved exactly what DC set out to do. Therefore, it's a success.

Everything else just comes down to personal tastes. I loved the book, others didn't. Some were disappointed, others weren't. This doesn't make it a failure. It just means different people have different tastes.

[david r]

I think the problem here lies in the initial question asked. The book sold phenominally well, restructured the DCU in exactly the way the company wanted, drew new reader attention to DC, and served as a springboard for launching new titles. So it achieved exactly what DC set out to do. Therefore, it's a success.

Everything else just comes down to personal tastes. I loved the book, others didn't. Some were disappointed, others weren't. This doesn't make it a failure. It just means different people have different tastes.

I posted that initial question. I am referring to high criticism and disappointment with Geoff Johns' work on IC. If you search the web, there is a high level of disappointment with fans over the series itself and it's outcome. It is not near 100%. But I would suggest Geoff Johns has received the biggest amount of negative reviews in his career over Infinite Crisis.

I wasn't trying to knock him down, or spit in his face. I was just stating what I've seen in people's reactions. Geoff Johns seemed to have a startling track record, and IC seems to have tarnished it. I was simply curious how people felt. if Geoff has lost some of his "shine" in the wake of IC

[Jack Zodiac]

I posted that initial question. I am referring to high criticism and disappointment with Geoff Johns' work on IC. If you search the web, there is a high level of disappointment with fans over the series itself and it's outcome. It is not near 100%. But I would suggest Geoff Johns has received the biggest amount of negative reviews in his career over Infinite Crisis.

I wasn't trying to knock him down, or spit in his face. I was just stating what I've seen in people's reactions. Geoff Johns seemed to have a startling track record, and IC seems to have tarnished it. I was simply curious how people felt. if Geoff has lost some of his "shine" in the wake of IC

It's true with every writer who takes on the tremendous task of a company-wide crossover event. Before Disassembled, Bendis was a hit writer. Marvel's golden boy. Ultimate Spider-Man was an untold success, he launched the entire Ultimate universe practically alone, and Powers was one of the best books on the shelves. Then, Disassembled hit every book on Marvel's side of the wall and the critics roared. Trust me, I was one of 'em. I loved Bendis and his work before Disassembled, but the crossover itself was, in my opinion, complete crap, and an utter waste of paper and resources. Which, I imagine, is what a lot of people feel about Infinite Crisis.

No matter how popular a writer is, when they do something so huge that almost everyone will read it, a lot more of his critics will have something negative to say about it.

[Babylon23]

I posted that initial question. I am referring to high criticism and disappointment with Geoff Johns' work on IC. If you search the web, there is a high level of disappointment with fans over the series itself and it's outcome. It is not near 100%. But I would suggest Geoff Johns has received the biggest amount of negative reviews in his career over Infinite Crisis.

I wasn't trying to knock him down, or spit in his face. I was just stating what I've seen in people's reactions. Geoff Johns seemed to have a startling track record, and IC seems to have tarnished it. I was simply curious how people felt. if Geoff has lost some of his "shine" in the wake of IC

Sorry, David. I didn't mean this to sound like an attack on you. I see where you're coming from. Johns certainly didn't come under fire from critics and fans much before IC.

I think part of the problem might be the attention and new readership that IC attracted. Before that, Johns was primarily writing books that, while popular, weren't huge sellers. JSA, Flash, and Teen Titans were popular books, but not huge sellers. Rebirth and IC certainly thrust Johns into the spotlight. Before these books, he had solid fan base, but didn't necessarily come under wider scrutiny.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there weren't plenty of people disappointed by IC, and that their reasons aren't justified. But I think it does mean that a lot more people were reading IC and Rebrith, leading to wider and more diverse internet opinion.

[Zenith23]

I.C addressed issues people weren't complaining about and left a legacy people are confused about; who the hell is the flash these days, what happened to the speed force. Or couldn't care less i.e Joe Chill! Wonderwoman did found the JLA.
I hear the trade will be touched up in places (redrawn) and who knows possibly the plot tightened up. I have never heard of the like in all my 30 years of reading comics. I would say it's a failure.
Laying the blame at the feet of Johns seems very unfair though, i'm sure he did his best.

[Buried Alien]

I.C addressed issues people weren't complaining about.

You weren't here when we used to have a Continuity Forum. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Agentum]

I think this kind of big events is very controlled by editors so they can never be really good.
I think it started ok but to me it soon became unitresting to read and i will not boter buying any trades around this event at all.
The crisis in the 80s was smart written, very smart, it's not a great story but at least it was smart, i think they tried to do too much with IC to involve eerything and his grandfather blah!

[Zenith23]

You weren't here when we used to have a Continuity Forum. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

No you got me there, but I never had any problems with DC's continuity to begin with. I prefer marvels solution, when the dust settles just ignore the tosh and ignore anyone who moans about it.

[david r]

Agentum is right that when the editors plot out the story, 90% of the time it is a disappointment. Most "Big Events" are editorially-driven, and a lot of fans usually seem disenchanted with them.

The best stories are writer-driven. I ALWAYS prefer a writer-driven story to anything the editors cooked up. Which is why Marvel Comics is all but dead for me now.

[Polarity]

I've only read Teen Titans: The Future is Now tpb, Infinite Crisis and an issue of Avengers, and I think he's a good writer.
The one I enjoyed the most was IC, but in Teen Titans I really liked the sense of history he had, which is a current trend writers seem to follow, knowing all the 'classic' stuff and referencing it, not only trough dialogue, but in their own stories' structures. I will happily read more stuff by him.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

sense of history?

Dude, TT was where he did the MOST retcons ever.

[Polarity]

You're talking about Raven and Beast Boy's re-invention? Well, I call that a mishaped evolution. He didn't erase their history. Or did he? I only read that tpb. I used to read New Titans up until the Starfire/Nigthwing wedding.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

No, I'm talkingabout Superboy and Impulse.

Where Johns has, admitted in public, the only reasons he did those retcons was that he, personally, didn't like the characters.

[kane]

No, I'm talkingabout Superboy and Impulse.

Where Johns has, admitted in public, the only reasons he did those retcons was that he, personally, didn't like the characters.

He retconnected Superboy but not impulse.

[Jack Zodiac]

He molded Impulse into something he would have never naturally become- Kid Flash. Johns is a huge Flash nerd, and in hindsight, he obviously needed Bart to shape up in order to carry on Barry and Wally's legacy. I still, at the time, didn't appreciate the direction he was taking him in.

[heystacy]

I don't think Johns failed. I simply didn't like the story's middle and ending. Those are my opinions.

While we're on the topic of Teen Titans, several of the issues have been hit or miss. :( Too many misses for me. I stopped buying TT for the moment. I love JSA though.

[mrc1214]

I had very little problem with Infinite Crisis. This may be because i hadnt been reading comics in a while so it didnt bother me how some things got affected. This book basically got me back into comics again. Its one of the first things i read when i started reading books again. It had some very memorable moments. The only thing i would have changed was instead of 7 books it should have been 12.

Superboy-Prime was an excellent villian and i look foward to seeing whats happens with him.

[Paragon]

I am in two minds about IC.

I do not like the outcome on almost every front. I really, really wish it went the other way.

Despite this, I was excited about every issue, and think that it was good quality. It also did what it was supposed to, so in no way can it be called a failure.

[DMike]

Yeah, the big problem with the question at hand in the beginning of the thread is that it seems to assume that Infinite Crisis was a failure in the first place.

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, the big problem with the question at hand in the beginning of the thread is that it seems to assume that Infinite Crisis was a failure in the first place.

From a sales perspective, Infinite Crisis definitely wasn't a failure. Far from it.

From a critical perspective, that's a matter of opinion.

[Windbreaker]

From a critical perspective, that's a matter of opinion.

Correct. And since mine is the only opinion that matters in this cosmos, I hereby declare Infinite Crisis a tremendous success. Ok, we can close this thread now.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Correct. And since mine is the only opinion that matters in this cosmos, I hereby declare Infinite Crisis a tremendous success. Ok, we can close this thread now.
It was a failure in the perspective of writing characters made by past writers.

[Windbreaker]

It was a failure in the perspective of writing characters made by past writers.

Huh?

By that, do you mean the current DC writers were not true to the overall established character of various heroes/villains? (if so, I disagree... at least I can't think of an example where you'd be correct)

Or are you simply comparing the current DC writers to past writers?

[Ronnigon]

Here is what I said about Geoff Johns in another topic string:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3376688&postcount=12

In short, I was definitely not a fan of what he did with his "Infinite Crisis"... Even the title was a hack-job of adolescent mentality, merely milking the words "crisis" and "infinite" from Wolfman & Perez's series back in the late 1980's. If he can't be more confident than trying to make a name for himself by grave-robbing and defiling the love-child concepts of those before him, he doesn't deserve his popularity... which, unfortunately, he has already achieved.

It doesn't encourage me one bit, to know that such malicious tactics were so popular with this new generation of readers. It's yet another indictment of what our cultural mentality has rotted into.

I think a lot of this has a lot to do with DC Comics in general, which is really starting to show strong signs of being a "corporate crony" culture. In a recent interview with Wizard Magazine, the heads of both Marvel and DC both responded to questions about the future directions of their companies, with radically different sorts of very telling answers.

The sorts of answers that Joe Quesada -- the head of Marvel -- gave, were of the sort that showed real individual boldness of mind and true creativity. In contrast, the DC exec was someone I'd never heard of before, and he gave the sorts of answers that you hear in corporate crony cultures: they were mostly centered around being politically-correct, not upsetting anybody, and sticking with what had already been done before.

It was no surprise, then, that DC's latest film, "Superman Returns" has been such an unimaginative, albeit overhyped, flop. The entire film was nothing more than the tell-tale result of corporate overconfidence and complacency in milking previous formulas: Superman was cast to be nothing more than a clone of Christopher Reeve, Lois Lane was just your typical, fresh-faced "OC" teenager, and even the plot itself was set to take place after the original, Christopher Reeve continuity left off.

My god, they even fell back on using Marlon Brando from the first film!

Beyond this, I was also irritated by something else. During the past two decades, the two principal creative talents to leave their mark on Superman have been John Byrne and Alex Ross. How much more interesting would it have been to have a Superman that looked like what Alex Ross has visualized, with a truly powerful-looking body and a LARGE "S"?

Instead, what did we get?

We got Bryan Singer hired as director, and he gave us a predictably homo-erotic "boy candy" Superman, with a skinny body and a high-maintenance, well-coiffeured head of hair, complete with the outdated and wholly uncreative and painfully traditional "curly-que" in front. The casting for all the principal characters was totally emasculated and neutered, as well... Lois Lane had no true reporter's fire, Perry White was diplomatic and "safe", and Lex Luthor...

Well, Lex Luthor was Kevin Spacey. With Parker Posey as his sidekick, no less.

These actors are all in the "meow, hiss" circle of Hollywood. (Can you say "gay mafia casting"?)

I'm only grateful and a little surprised that Bryan Singer didn't just cut completely loose and have them all break into a choral rendition of "Springtime for Hitler" or "The French Mistake".

Sad and trite. Sad and trite.

[phantom1592]

We got Bryan Singer hired as director, and he gave us a predictably homo-erotic "boy candy" Superman, with a skinny body and a high-maintenance, well-coiffeured head of hair, complete with the outdated and wholly uncreative and painfully traditional "curly-que" in front.

I think I would have been afraid of Your superman. I find it a little odd that your critizing the Spit-curl. I HATE the "large" superman. There is no force that he can use to BUILD muscles. He is supposed to be lean. Remember, He can hide inside a suit and seem weak.

[phantom1592]

No, I'm talkingabout Superboy and Impulse.

Where Johns has, admitted in public, the only reasons he did those retcons was that he, personally, didn't like the characters.


Hmm... Oddly enough I hated both those characters UNTIL TT. Not sure I liked the Luthor thing, but I was glad to see those kryptonian genes kicking in and becoming SUPERBOY.

Impulse I always thought of as a joke. Could not stand him till he got a little more serious. HATED his costume.

Was that really such a change in attitude for Impulse? When he first showed up his "thing" was that life was a video game, and he didn't seperate fact from fiction. THEN he got shot in the knee. Is it so hard to beleive that might serious him up a little?

[Ronnigon]

I think I would have been afraid of Your superman. I find it a little odd that your critizing the Spit-curl. I HATE the "large" superman. There is no force that he can use to BUILD muscles. He is supposed to be lean. Remember, He can hide inside a suit and seem weak.

Come on, now.

If you don't think a thick Superman can seem weak as Clark Kent, keep in mind Frank Quitely's current rendition of Clark Kent in "All-Star Superman".

[phantom1592]

Come on, now.

If you don't think a thick Superman can seem weak as Clark Kent, keep in mind Frank Quitely's current rendition of Clark Kent in "All-Star Superman".


I just don't buy it. Makes it harder to believe in the glasses disguise if Clark is still the first person in the office I'd call to help me move furniture ;)

[Kevinroc]

Hmm... Oddly enough I hated both those characters UNTIL TT. Not sure I liked the Luthor thing, but I was glad to see those kryptonian genes kicking in and becoming SUPERBOY.

Impulse I always thought of as a joke. Could not stand him till he got a little more serious. HATED his costume.

Was that really such a change in attitude for Impulse? When he first showed up his "thing" was that life was a video game, and he didn't seperate fact from fiction. THEN he got shot in the knee. Is it so hard to beleive that might serious him up a little?

Your post makes it clear you hadn't been reading any of Bart's appearances except for his very early appearances.

[Paul Newell]

When a topic becomes nothing more than the merest thread of a reason for someone to rant about something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO THE TOPIC, then I know the shark has well and truly jumped.

Sad and trite. Sad and trite.