Lea Hernandez Grants For Femaleses

[Gail Simone]

WOMEN WEBCOMICKER GRANT NAN

PURPOSE
In order to foster women publishing independently, with economy, and as owners of what they create, I will award FOUR grants annually, of a year's free hosting at WebComicsNation.com, to women making a regularly-updating new or existing webcomic of any genre or style.
The recipients will have unlimited data storage and bandwidth, the ability to choose to support their work with ads, and a storefront for selling merchandise.

The name of the grant is "Nan", after the "digital person" Nan 11 from Rumble Girls: Silky Warrior Tansie. In RG, Nan agitates, comments on, and works behind the scenes to help the heroine, Raven, come to the understanding that being her own girl is the key to her strength.

I believe the Web already has what women wanting to make comics need, and that it has and continues to transform American comics from a work-for-hire Boy's Club to a stage for everyone to perform on and be seen. The Web is living up to its promise, and comics can, too.

DEADLINE
Submissions are now open. Deadline for submissions is FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 1, 2006, 6PM Central.

ANNOUNCEMENT OF GRANTS
NAN Grant recipients will be notified WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 2006, via email. A press release will be sent out concurrently. (Because, dadgum, we all need good news by Wednesday.)

ELIGIBILITY
1. Persons applying MUST be female. You will have to provide me with a document such as a driver's license, birth certificate, military I.D., etc. stating you are female. In the case of team comics (no more than three persons on a team), the entire team MUST be female, and remain so for the period of the grant.
2. Applicants must be 18 years old.
3. The work submitted must be free of contractural obligation for web publication, must be the property of the applicant(s), must not infringe on other's rights, nor be libelous or slanderous.
4. I am kindly disposed towards manga and Oni-like comics, but good comics most of all.
5. Previous experience a plus, but not neccessary.
6. The NAN Grant is open to ALL female webcomickers, regardless of experience. This includes young, brand-new comickers, older brand-new comickers, experienced comickers now paying a success tax for bandwidth use, professionals from other fields. You have to either already be making a comic that needs hosting, or want to host a new one.
7. Applicant bears sole responsibility for following these guidelines. Failure to comply with items 1.-3. will result in revocation of awarded grant.

RIGHTS
1. Applicants retain ALL rights to their work. Submissions are the sole property of their creator(s), period.
2. Comics published with a NAN Grant that are later collected for print are requested to add "Originally published in (year) on Webcomicsnation.com, with the aid of Women Webcomicker Grant Nan" to their indicia.
3. I reserve the right to use applicant's names and representative art to publicize NAN without further compensation. (This means I will tell people who's applied, who's won, and point the inquiring to their work.)
4. NAN Grant recipients are encouraged to crow as soon as they recieve notification emails.

GUIDELINES
1. Ideally, BEFORE YOU SEND ME YOUR PROPOSAL, BUY or BORROW and READ "How To Write a Book Proposal" by Michael Larsen. (Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582972516/qid=1066192984/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-7710080-8024610)
While it is geared towards non-fiction proposals, it does teach everything you need to know about crafting a readable proposal.
What I do not want to see is your entire story written out in a single-spaced block in email. Have mercy.

2. Show me you already know how to put a comic/images online. I want to see clean presentation (which means learning how to use an image editing program to take out grays from scans), good lettering (many decent free fonts available at blambot.com, so there's no excuse for lettering in Times New Roman), and basic HTML (which will greatly enhance your experience in hosting with WebComicsNation.com).
Excellent proposals by Lynn Lau and Leigh Dragoon that won their creators contracts at GirlAMatic.com can be found here:
http://tentative.net/jupiter/
And here:
http://www.spidric.com/proposal/default.asp

3. Email me at nanoneone@gmail.com, subject line "NAN: (title)", otherwise my spam filters will eat it.
To this address, send me the URL of your submission, and attach a scan of a document that verifies your gender.
Don't tell me it isn't your best work. If it's not, why should I look at it?
If you do things like use "u" for "you", "4" for "four" and "LOL" for punctuation, don't when you write me. I expect to see a command of conventional English. Also, sell yourself without resorting to emoticons. They're for casual correspondence, which a proposal is not, at least not to me.

4. It's okay to be disappointed if I feel your comic isn't right for Nan Grant, because no one enjoys rejection. I regret I will be unable to provide detailed guidance or critiques of submitted material. I hope you will submit again.

5. I and grateful to you for submitting, no matter what my answer is.


--
Lea Hernandez
Atelier Original Keepsakes and Commemoratives
Creator: Rumble Girls (NBM/rumblegirls.com)
Texas Steampunk I, II III (Cyberosia/GirlAMatic.com)
Author: Manga Secrets, Impact Books

[Ell Aich]

Thanks for posting this, Gail.

[stealthwise]

Can I do this if I wear a dress? Er, not that I own a stunning purple one that goes with my shoes.



The heels, that is.

[Sabrinaset]

Lea Hernandez Grants For Femaleses


What are Femaleses? Are they like Lebians?

[Magneto_X]

This is great news.

The industry needs to all the help it can get to encourage women and girls to partipate in it.

[The Xenos]

I too would pull a Klinger to get into this. Very neat.

[Cam63]

What are Femaleses? Are they like Lebians?

Similar, but they can't belch the alphabet nearly as well.

[sk716]

What are Femaleses? Are they like Lebians?

Yes, and they taste better than scientologists.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Can I do this if I wear a dress? Er, not that I own a stunning purple one that goes with my shoes.



The heels, that is.

Oh don't be so coy. You look GREAT in it and with your hair up...JUST STUNNING!

[Karl J. Barnes]

Yes, and they taste better than scientologists.

But not as good as babies, right?

[sk716]

But not as good as babies, right?

My reply would be so dirty SuperSonic would explode. And Sabrinaset would giggle for an hour.

[Sabrinaset]

My reply would be so dirty SuperSonic would explode. And Sabrinaset would giggle for an hour.

...and what's wrong with THAT? :evilsmile

[Super Sonic]

..what happened? Who said what?

<.<


>.>

[Michael P]

The following spoiler text contains me being an inveterate asshole, for those who want to read it:

Does the winner have to make a minimum number of message board/blog posts per year complaining about how she wants nothing more to do with mainstream comics because they're so horribly sexist and hateful towards women creators, and/or how the women who have succeeded in mainstream comics are Aunt Toms filling up token spots that she deserves far more?

Turning the asshole switch off, this is a great idea, and I applaud Lea for putting it into action.

[sk716]

...and what's wrong with THAT? :evilsmile

Are you gonna clean up the mess Sonic makes when I manage to use the words:

Eat
Lebian
Taste
Beaver

and

Baby

All in the same sentence?

[Super Sonic]

Are you gonna clean up the mess Sonic makes when I manage to use the words:

Eat
Lebian
Taste
Beaver

and

Baby

All in the same sentence?

............*boom*

[Super Sonic]

The following spoiler text contains snark, for those who want to read it:

Does the winner have to make a minimum number of message board/blog posts per year complaining about how she wants nothing more to do with mainstream comics because they're so horribly sexist and hateful towards women creators, and/or how the women who have succeeded in mainstream comics are Aunt Toms filling up token spots that she deserves far more?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!



*boom*

[Gail Simone]

The following spoiler text contains snark, for those who want to read it:

Does the winner have to make a minimum number of message board/blog posts per year complaining about how she wants nothing more to do with mainstream comics because they're so horribly sexist and hateful towards women creators, and/or how the women who have succeeded in mainstream comics are Aunt Toms filling up token spots that she deserves far more?

Turning the snark generator off, this is a great idea, and I applaud Lea for putting it into action.

Dude, what the hell?

Who said "/or how the women who have succeeded in mainstream comics are Aunt Toms filling up token spots that she deserves far more?"

Gail

[Ell Aich]

Pullman says,

"Does the winner have to make a minimum number of message board/blog posts per year complaining about how she wants nothing more to do with mainstream comics because they're so horribly sexist and hateful towards women creators..."

How charming, how genteel to put that in spoiler text.
It's so sweet that you applauded me after verbally slapping me with invisible text, Pullman. Why not put your plaudit in spoiler text, too? It's less sincere that your snark, after all.
Your obvious discomfort with my anger doesn't make me wrong, and it doesn't make you funny, no matter what SuperSonic thinks.
If this is your praise, you may keep it.

"...and/or how the women who have succeeded in mainstream comics are Aunt Toms filling up token spots that she deserves far more?"

I have NEVER ANYWHERE said such a thing. Shame on you.

They're a)talented women who are either willing to put up with more shit than I am, or b) blessed with never seeing or experiencing what I and others have, or c) know what other women do and have put up with and decide to stay in and fight the fight.

Since you don't seem to get what I've been on about with my blogging, some helpful reading for you, from people who are not me:
http://heocwaeth.blogspot.com/2006/01/in-defense-of-bitterness.html
http://burningbronte.blogspot.com/2006/01/refrigerator-culture-and-privilege.html

[Super Sonic]

and it doesn't make you funny, no matter what SuperSonic thinks.


....but...I need the attention!

[Gail Simone]

That was uncalled for, guys, completely.

I'm disappointed.

Gail

[Super Sonic]

That was uncalled for, guys, completely.

I'm disappointed.

Gail

Not with me of course, because....... well ....... hmm.

[Bright-Raven]

While I appreciate what Ms. Hernandez is attempting here, I have to say that her reasons for doing so are a bit misguided, in my opinion.

Ms. Hernandez, there is no dispute over whether or not there has been gender bias and improper treatment towards women creators in the American Comics Industry. This is a well documented fact that anyone with the interest can find plenty of evidence thereof.

However, for you (or anyone) to create a contest that dictates who can enter based on arbitrary values not pertinent to the work - be it race, gender, sexual preference, religion, nationality, whatever - how is that any different or better than what you are rallying against?

Answer: It isn't.

And you're a smart enough person to realize that, Ms. Hernandez.

There are all sorts of social improprieties in the American Comics industry. Ageism. Racism. Religious bias. Gender bias. Sexual bias. Unwarranted and unwelcome sexual advances thrust upon creators of BOTH genders of ALL given sexual identities. Unwarranted and unwelcome social pressures imposed on creators to partake in the use of "recreational substances" - be that alcohol, marijuana, or any number of other possible choices.

And that's not even scratching the surface. Hell, when you consider some of the nature of the sociality of the comics industry over the past two to three decades, one might even begin to wonder whether or not Frederic Wertham was actually right in his speculations.

These are not social problems that only the women creators suffer through. These concerns affect all of the creative community in an extremely negative fashion, and in my opinion has shaped and caused much of the alienation between the media of comics and the general population and more recently even amongst comics fandom.

Standing up for the rights of an oppressed group is an honorable thing, Ms. Hernandez. Unfortunately it can also be seen as self-serving, especially if you qualify as being part of said oppressed group. If you want to make a statement and be a true "Champion" for a cause in striving to improve the industry, then you can't simply pick to fight the fights that interest you. The Never-Ending Battle needs to be fought for us all.

That having been said, I would hope that you might reconsider the structures for your contest so as it reflects what I would like to think is the true spirit of that which you wish to reflect, which is to demonstrate an unbiased, open minded attitude that welcomes all. But it is your contest and you're entitled to do as you please. I wish you and your contestants well.

[Karl J. Barnes]

...and what's wrong with THAT? :evilsmile

You get nose bubbles , when you do...

[Ell Aich]

While I appreciate what Ms. Hernandez is attempting here, I have to say that her reasons for doing so are a bit misguided, in my opinion.

Ms. Hernandez, there is no dispute over whether or not there has been gender bias and improper treatment towards women creators in the American Comics Industry. This is a well documented fact that anyone with the interest can find plenty of evidence thereof.

Then there is not enough interest for my taste, because I still witness breathtaking levels of denial.


However, for you (or anyone) to create a contest that dictates who can enter based on arbitrary values not pertinent to the work - be it race, gender, sexual preference, religion, nationality, whatever - how is that any different or better than what you are rallying against?

The applicants don't ONLY need to be female to get the grant. They also have to put together a good proposal, they must send it in, it must be a good comic, and it must demonstrate they're ready to produce for at least a year.
Those are hardly arbitrary. In fact, the LEAST arbitrary aspect of the grant is that applicants must be female.

To be perfectly blunt, comics is still a boy's club, and I see nothing wrong with focus on the most level playing field available. In fact, it's darn smart.

And you're a smart enough person to realize that, Ms. Hernandez.

I'm also smart enough to realize that you are talkin' shit, whether you mean to or not.

Unwarranted and unwelcome sexual advances thrust upon creators of BOTH genders of ALL given sexual identities.

Distraction technique! Everyone's harassed! Not just women! OMG!
Yes, Louis, but one gender has priviliege and the security of it and one DOES NOT.

These are not social problems that only the women creators suffer through.

OMG! It's not just women! Distraction technique! Saying it's not just women DIMINISHES what women put up with. It is a technique to MINIMIZE women's experience. (Just as joking, as has already been seen in this thread, TRIVIALIZES.)

Standing up for the rights of an oppressed group is an honorable thing, Ms. Hernandez. Unfortunately it can also be seen as self-serving, especially if you qualify as being part of said oppressed group.

Wait, are you saying this would be more meaningful if a guy did it? Or DC Comics? Frank Miller?

As for self-serving, I can only think of "No Good Deed" from "Wicked the Musical":
One question haunts and hurts
Too much, too much to mention:
Was I really seeking good
Or just seeking attention?
Is that all good deeds are
When looked at with an ice-cold eye?

I have the ability to give three grants (and added a fourth through a generous unsolicited donation), I chose to lend my reputation to them, and I chose to grant them to women because that is the group whose struggle I understand best. It makes me feel good to be able to do so.

If that's self-serving, then yes I am. Unashamedly, proudly, self-serving.

If you want to make a statement and be a true "Champion" for a cause in striving to improve the industry, then you can't simply pick to fight the fights that interest you. The Never-Ending Battle needs to be fought for us all.

Oh, Louis. Superman can't be everywhere. That's why we have the JLU.
Now you are saying I'm not trying hard enough if I'm not kissing everyone's boo-boos.

That having been said, I would hope that you might reconsider the structures for your contest so as it reflects what I would like to think is the true spirit of that which you wish to reflect, which is to demonstrate an unbiased, open minded attitude that welcomes all. But it is your contest and you're entitled to do as you please. I wish you and your contestants well.

First, let's be clear: the NAN Grant is NOT a contest. To call it such reveals you didn't pay close attention, which speaks volumes. It is a grant, the women applying are applicants.

I wonder how you got "...it reflects what I would like to think is the true spirit of that which you wish to reflect, which is to demonstrate an unbiased, open minded attitude that welcomes all..."
out of
"In order to foster women publishing independently, with economy, and as owners of what they create, I will award FOUR grants annually, of a year's free hosting at WebComicsNation.com, to women making a regularly-updating new or existing webcomic of any genre or style."
Your words suggest I thought this up last night, when, in fact, I have been working on it since I said in January that I was done with mainstream comics.

As for reconsidering, no. I will not.

[Red Jack]

No.

If an excluded group, or members of that group, take it upon themselves to promote members of that group who would, otherwise, NOT RECEIVE that promotion, it in no way equates with the original exclusionary practice without which the self promotion would never have been deemed necessary.

If a traditional white school wants to keep itself white by making its tuition insanely high, scholarships offered to QUALIFYING non-whites are not part of the problem but the answer to it. No hrm is done to white students by levelling the feild (and it's not really level, obviously, as no scholarship or grant can truly offset institutional ethnic and gender exclusions).

Ms. Hernandez is putting her money where her mouth is. If she could do more she would, I'm sure. Just as Dwayne McDuffie and Co. did years ago with multi-ethnic MILESTONE. She is doing precisely what someone in her position should and i wish more would follow suit.

All props to her for bringing some heat and props to Gail for promoting it, in spite of their current dustup.

Go LADIES! Put in some work.

[Ell Aich]

She is doing precisely what someone in her position should and i wish more would follow suit.

All props to her for bringing some heat and props to Gail for promoting, it in spite of their current dustup.

Go LADIES! Put in some work.

Thanks, Red Jack.

[TCJohnson]

This is affirmative action which sucks. What sucks even more is that there is a need for it. In every culture, the minority is at a disadvantage. It is the whole us vs. them mentality that is ingrained in our basic instincts. (And one of truly wonderful things about humanity is the abilitiy to arise above base instincts.) Until we can recognize that there doesn't need to be an us vs. them within our country, then affirmative action may be needed to make the playing field more level and for people's success to be truly based on thier abilities instead of the DNA recieved at birth.

Int he comic book industry, women are the minority...an extreme minority.

And I think the generosity that Ms. Hernandez is showing with this project should be applauded.

[Bright-Raven]

Ms. Hernandez writes:

First, let's be clear: the NAN Grant is NOT a contest. To call it such reveals you didn't pay close attention, which speaks volumes. It is a grant, the women applying are applicants.

My apologies, as I did misspeak there. My fault for not having the initial post open in a separate window for proper reference.

There is not enough interest (in the social mistreatment of women creators in comics) for my taste, because I still witness breathtaking levels of denial.

Denial doesn't mean it's not there, nor does it mean that others out there don't recognize it's existence. If anything, it typically signifies that there is a problem, and that those who are denying it simply do not wish to acknowledge it, often because those parties are at a loss as to how to affect positive change, and sadly oft times don't want to dwell on the issue in hopes of perhaps finding solutions.

So I agree with you that there is a problem with it. I just happen to think it is a symptom - a heightened symptom, yes, but still a symptom - of larger social disorder within the industry.

My initial response happened to be more about the all-female collaborative team rule. At first, I was thinking that you were being a bit unfair to those women creators who might choose to work with a male collaborator.

After being away from it for a little bit, I'm guessing that part of the reason you chose that stipulation was to prevent male applicants from submitting with their sister / girlfriend / other female as a "collaborator", when you don't have any easy way of confirming who did what.

I still think it's sad and that it hurts your goals of promoting women creators, but I suppose it's a necessary evil.

[Red Jack]

This is affirmative action which sucks.

You need to study history better.

Not only isn't this Affirmative Action but Affirmative Action doesn't "suck."

[Ian Boothby]

You need to study history better.

Not only isn't this Affirmative Action but Affirmative Action doesn't "suck."


You need to read more than one sentence of a post. He went on to say...

This is affirmative action which sucks. What sucks even more is that there is a need for it. In every culture, the minority is at a disadvantage. It is the whole us vs. them mentality that is ingrained in our basic instincts. (And one of truly wonderful things about humanity is the abilitiy to arise above base instincts.) Until we can recognize that there doesn't need to be an us vs. them within our country, then affirmative action may be needed to make the playing field more level and for people's success to be truly based on thier abilities instead of the DNA recieved at birth.

It's a fair point.

[TomStillwell]

When this was first posted I read it and thought it was great. I popped my head in again to see what's going on and can't believe there's a debate going on.

In college I applied for and was given several grants that helped pay my enormous tuition. One specifically was given by the local Knights of Columbus to students of Italian heritage with an above 3.0 grade average. The name Stillwell may not scream Italian nor my blond hair and blue eyes but I'm half Italian.

Lea's grant is no different. The grantor can chose who the grants go to. It's happens everyday in colleges across the nation.

I would love to try for a grant like this but there's no way I'm going to poo-poo Lea's efforts because it's just for women. Instead I'll wish her the best of luck in finding more excellent female talent.

[Charles RB]

If a traditional white school wants to keep itself white by making its tuition insanely high, scholarships offered to QUALIFYING non-whites are not part of the problem but the answer to it.

I thought the point of scholarships was to help poor students.

[Cam63]

I think of anyone in school or college as " those poor students. "

[Charles RB]

Wait, are you saying this would be more meaningful if a guy did it? Or DC Comics?

Well, technically yes, it would be more meaningful if DC Comics did it. Then you'd have a large comic company and employer of creators offering grants to female webcomic creators who are not working for the company, out of the principle of diversifying the industry/medium as a whole rather than just that company. That'd be pretty meaningful.

[matterconsumer]

As a company it wouldn't be in its best interest to sponsor work that was not done for the company.

If DC were to offer scholarships then that work would be for DC.

Of course DC already has any number of individuals who are already trying to break in. DC and Marvel have a limited number of positions that are available. These are career positions and are likely to be held for many years.

Lea's providing an opportunity for a few women. An opportunity was provided to show her support for her effort.

It is downright embarrassing to read some of the comments made in this thread. SHAME!

[Charles RB]

As a company it wouldn't be in its best interest to sponsor work that was not done for the company.

Indeed. Hence the point of why it'd be meaningful if they did do it.

[matterconsumer]

Indeed. Hence the point of why it'd be meaningful if they did do it.

As a publicly traded company the company has to engage in endeavors that will promote the company's profitability.

If DC is paying people money to create comics then those comics are going to appear under the DC logo.

DC, as a company, cannot simply create scholarships and give away money.

I don't dispute the point that DC has name recognition. I'm simply saying that the rules aren't going to allow DC to initiate this sort of program. And as mentioned earlier they have no shortage of folk trying to break in...

[TCJohnson]

You need to study history better.

Not only isn't this Affirmative Action

You are correct, I meant to say it is similiar but not exactly the same...however, the coniditions that created affirmative action and similiar to the ones that made Ms. Hernandeaz feel she needs to do this: she is trying to level a playing field so that women can succeed or fail based on their ability rather than their gender.

And again I think what Ms. Hernandez is doing is generous and encouraged.

[Sabrinaset]

All I know is; I wish I had more artistic talent so I could participate in this without embarassing myself. I'm just a few steps away from stick figures nowadays. I'll just haveta stick to chopping up people instead of drawing them. I think what Lea is doing is great.

[Red Jack]

You need to read more than one sentence of a post. He went on to say...

This is affirmative action which sucks. What sucks even more is that there is a need for it. In every culture, the minority is at a disadvantage. It is the whole us vs. them mentality that is ingrained in our basic instincts. (And one of truly wonderful things about humanity is the abilitiy to arise above base instincts.) Until we can recognize that there doesn't need to be an us vs. them within our country, then affirmative action may be needed to make the playing field more level and for people's success to be truly based on thier abilities instead of the DNA recieved at birth.

It's a fair point.

No. One, the first sentence seems to contradict the following graph and two, while the meat of the post seems to express the more or less correct sentiment, it waters it down, IMO. And, of course, Affirmative Action doesn't suck. Not even a little tiny bit.

Whenever a traditionally excluded group gets enough power to make even the smallest change for the better, people in the traditionally In group, the ones who either supported or benefited from the original exclusion, start making "Can't we all just get along" noises.

Either this is wilfull obstruction based on a desire to muddy the waters and maintain the status quo OR it is based upon complete ignorance of the situation and the very few means open to those who the current paradigm excludes to correct its imbalances.

So, sure. we can all get along. As soon as that feild is level. Not before.

Ms. Hernandez is a woman. Women, like non-whites, have been traditionally excluded from the backstage of comics. While it could be argued that non-white males have made some gains (mostly in terms of the art chores, not so much in the editorial or writing) women are still pretty much shut out.

Scholarships (and grants) are about ANYTHING the person setting up the scholarship (or grant) wants. They can be based on region, faith, ethnicity, gender, or any combination of these or any other factor. Poverty is only one potential factor and not, in itself, automatic. Octavia Butler, an accomplished and succesful fiction writer, got a 1,000,000 dollar grant simply because she was deemed to be so amazinly gifted that year. The following year someone else got it. Poverty was not a factor. Only talent.

I could set up a grant for people named Myron who want to do sculptures made from peanut shells and that would be perfectly acceptable. Silly, but acceptable.

Ms. Hernandez can't solve this with four webcomics. I don't beleive that's the point. The POINT is to put some light on the work of creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream of their profession.

I'm primarily a writer of prose. In my experience that is the SINGLE artistc profession where ethnic or gender bias doesn't, as a rule, screw the gifted creator out of work. No one knows my age, gender or skin color when reading a story. All they can judge is the story. You can't get a more level feild than that.

But it was not always so. Until recently women who hoped to write scifi or crime fiction or, really, anything outside of romance, had to conceal their female ID in order to get the idiot boys to read their work. I thank God (or whoever) that UK LeGuin finally got to be Ursula. She shouldn't have had to hide that in the first damned place. History. Learn it or repeat it.

The only company in comics that functions like a normal publishing house is IMAGE. They publish books. That's it. There is no pattern beyond that, either of creator exclusion or of subject matter in the work produced.

That is ONE company and it is not enough.

Go, Lea. Rumble. Go.

[Charles RB]

Scholarships (and grants) are about ANYTHING the person setting up the scholarship (or grant) wants. They can be based on region, faith, ethnicity, gender, or any combination of these or any other factor.

You used the example of education and high tuition fees. It seems stupid to have an academic scholarship designed to help qualified students go through higher education that isn't for qualified students who have little money - if they already can afford the tuition fees, they don't need the money.

Ms. Hernandez can't solve this with four webcomics. I don't beleive that's the point. The POINT is to put some light on the work of creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream of their profession.

Really? Here was me thinking the point was to help female webcomics creators out by paying their web-hosting funds so they can continue creating. When did those four creators get excluded from the mainstream? You already know beforehand all four of them applied to work at DC/Marvel (I assume you're not talking about Image, Dark Horse, Tokyopop's OELs or DC Thomson here) and didn't get picked up because only because they were female?

Until recently women who hoped to write scifi or crime fiction or, really, anything outside of romance, had to conceal their female ID in order to get the idiot boys to read their work.

Really? How recently are we talking? I know that at least Anne McCaffrey (sic?) had a book out under her own name in 1982, and that predates my birth by four years so I'd be slightly worried if people thought that was recent.

The only company in comics that functions like a normal publishing house is IMAGE. They publish books. That's it. There is no pattern beyond that, either of creator exclusion or of subject matter in the work produced.

How do Tokyopop, Top Shelf, Fantagraphis, Oni Press and a bunch that I'm possibly forgetting differ from Image in the "no pattern beyond publishing stuff" thing?

[Red Jack]

You used the example of education and high tuition fees. etc.

What's the beef here? Tokyo Pop publishes MANGA. Oni has little or no market share, ditto Top Shelf. What exactly is your problem with what's being attempted or how I described it? I'll give you Dark Horse. I forgot them.

Are you seriously proposing that the nearly complete lack of female creators in mainstream comics is a function of talent (or lack therof) alone?

I hope not, because that would be moronic.

And, as for the scholarship example, it's not up to YOU to determine what a recipient needs or doesn't need. Only the person who sets up the scholarship is entitled to do that.

That's how it works.

[TCJohnson]

Either this is wilfull obstruction based on a desire to muddy the waters and maintain the status quo OR it is based upon complete ignorance of the situation and the very few means open to those who the current paradigm excludes to correct its imbalances.

What are you accusing me of exactly? I am saying it sucks that it is so hard for femaleses to get into the door that Ms. Hernandez feels she needs to spend her own money to support them.


Whenever a traditionally excluded group gets enough power to make even the smallest change for the better, people in the traditionally In group, the ones who either supported or benefited from the original exclusion, start making "Can't we all just get along" noises.
.....

So, sure. we can all get along. As soon as that feild is level. Not before.


How is this different from what I was saying?

[TCJohnson]

I'll just haveta stick to chopping up people.

I think it is so wonderful that you found a way to use your hobby to make some money.

[Corrina]

It's her money and she's doing it to promote a worthy cause. I think it's a great thing and I'm not really understanding the objections to it at all.

[Sabrinaset]

I really don't see what the problem is. I mean, comics have never really had much of a femaleses influence on them, and we need that. Sure, we had trailblazers Marie Severin, and later, Colleen Doran, but that was all.

And then along came

DEVIN GRAYSON!!!

and it was as if a new day had dawned upon comicdom! Suddenly, we had more femaleses entering the field, such as Devin wannabe Gail. Of course, the flip side was that, then we had Gail wannabe Super Sonic, which makes him a wannabe wannabe. But, like Peter David, I digress.

The thing is, we do need more women in the field, and if what Lea Hernandez does leads to more getting exposure in the field, I say more power to her. And I wish I could be a part of it. It won't change the world overnight, but it's a good start.

[Larry Dixon]

Seems pretty groovy to me.

BTW, I think the 'until recently' mention re: women in crime/SF/fantasy books might be referring to such writers as Andre Norton, whose editor insisted she use that name because it was gender-neutral, and the many female writers who needed to work under male pseudonyms to get widespread distribution. The 'until recently' is probably in a century-level scope.

[Corrina]

The walls seemed to start to break apart from a reader's standpoint in the mid-1970s. I remember lots of Connie Willis in Asimov's SF magazine, for instance, and remember hearing that James Tiptree Jr. was a woman about that time.

There were earlier pioneers but they didn't succeed in really opening the door wide enough or maybe the momentum wasn't strong enough until then. That's when Anne McCaffrey hit big, when Marion Zimmer Bradley seemed to gain real speed with the Darkover series and I'm sure I'm forgetting others. From a strictly outsider perspective, Bradley seemed to do a lot to promote female SF/F writers with her Sword and Sorcery and Darkover anthologies. That's where I first read stories by Mercedes Lackey, for instance. :)

Unfortunately, I still don't see many female writers on the SF side of the equation. Lois McMaster Bujold and Julian May are exceptions and a new writer, Elizabeth Bear, has done really well with some hard SF. (And, it should be mentioned, McCaffrey did do some SF, though I'd consider her dragons more on the fantasy side, at least originally.)

And I've probably forgotten someone. Larry probably will fix that. :)

[sk716]

I really don't see what the problem is. I mean, comics have never really had much of a femaleses influence on them, and we need that. Sure, we had trailblazers Marie Severin, and later, Colleen Doran, but that was all.

And then along came

DEVIN GRAYSON!!!

and it was as if a new day had dawned upon comicdom! Suddenly, we had more femaleses entering the field, such as Devin wannabe Gail. Of course, the flip side was that, then we had Gail wannabe Super Sonic, which makes him a wannabe wannabe. But, like Peter David, I digress.

The thing is, we do need more women in the field, and if what Lea Hernandez does leads to more getting exposure in the field, I say more power to her. And I wish I could be a part of it. It won't change the world overnight, but it's a good start.


Gail, will you please give Sabrina Devin's e-mail address so Sabrina can ask her out and get shot down and we can finally get past this?

It's not as bad as Lester's Adrain Paul man-crush, but really...



:p

[Larry Dixon]

w00t Mercedes Lackey. :) Dat chick rocks da house.

And her birthday too, Misty turned 56 yesterday. I got her some nice koi and did some other neat things for her, including taking her to see District B-13, which she adored.

And yep we do owe a bunch to Marion, and to Andre Norton and those who believed in her. Andre was a dear friend, we owe her for a lot of things. Her family was very Proper Upper Class and disowned her for wanting to be a writer of such sordid, tawdry things as that fantasy and scientifiction nonsense. She stuck with it and created masterworks.

...as for me, the times I've ghosted, what can I say, I'm not a female fantasy writer but I play one on the shelves. :)

[Karl J. Barnes]

...as for me, the times I've ghosted, what can I say, I'm not a female fantasy writer but I play one on the shelves. :)

So you are transvest-writer-ite?

[Charles RB]

What's the beef here? Tokyo Pop publishes MANGA.

Which are still comics and they sell a lot of Original English Language manga, the vast majority written by females. Tokyopop does (due to its massive sales) count as mainstream, doesn't it?

Oni has little or no market share, ditto Top Shelf.

They're still comic companies. You said there was only "one" comic company that has no real pattern beyond publishing comics, and that's demonstratably not true; you didn't say anything about sales.

What exactly is your problem with what's being attempted or how I described it?

Well, for a start you described it as "some light on the work of creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream of their profession" - which, as far as I can tell, it's not. It's a grant helping female webcomic creators continue to make webcomics by covering their site-hosting costs; that's admirable, but it's nothing like what you were saying it was.

Are you seriously proposing that the nearly complete lack of female creators in mainstream comics is a function of talent (or lack therof) alone?

What I'm saying is I don't see how you can say the four webcomic creators who'll be given the grants are "creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream" because you don't even know that they ever submitted work to Marvel or DC, or even that they want to work for Marvel or DC (or even that they want to submit work and don't want to stick with the webcomics). Based on the large amount of young girls doing OEL manga's through Tokyopop, they're pitching elsewhere.

And, as for the scholarship example, it's not up to YOU to determine what a recipient needs or doesn't need.

In the case of higher education and expensive tuition fees? It's pretty obvious they need money so they can pay for tuition fees. If they already have the money, then give the scholarship to an academically-deserving kid who doesn't have the money.

[Red Jack]

What are you accusing me of exactly? I am saying it sucks that it is so hard for femaleses to get into the door that Ms. Hernandez feels she needs to spend her own money to support them.



How is this different from what I was saying?


I'm not accusng you of anything. I'm saying that the opening statement "Affirmative Action sucks," is false, regardless of how you follow it up.

Linking the first statment with the rest of the post makes the entire sentiment muddy.

[Gail Simone]

I confess, I don't get the Devin gag.

Gail

[Red Jack]

Which are still comics and they sell a lot of Original English Language manga, the vast majority written by females. Tokyopop does (due to its massive sales) count as mainstream, doesn't it?

Not yet. And the strong implication from your statement is "Gals, if you want to do comics, you'd better stick to manga." What about Thor? What about the Punisher? What about Wolverine? Off limits? Apparently.

They're still comic companies. You said there was only "one" comic company that has no real pattern beyond publishing comics, and that's demonstratably not true; you didn't say anything about sales.

My mistake. None of those other companies can be considered "mainstream" and nothing they do meaningfully affects the position of women or minorities in the mainstream. Collectively, MAYBE, they could make a difference if that was part of their intent. It doesn't seem to be.

Well, for a start you described it as "some light on the work of creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream of their profession" - which, as far as I can tell, it's not. It's a grant helping female webcomic creators continue to make webcomics by covering their site-hosting costs; that's admirable, but it's nothing like what you were saying it was.

Well, it's clearly as much a political act as it is a philanthropic one. Did you miss that? What else could the politics be in this case? For instance, Mr. Blaylock is currently making a similar offer to comics creators but his isn't gender specific. Thus we can conclude that there is no political aspect to his offer. Ms. H's has a gender component and, therefore, a political one as well. Obviously.

What I'm saying is I don't see how you can say the four webcomic creators who'll be given the grants are "creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream" because you don't even know that they ever submitted work to Marvel or DC, or even that they want to work for Marvel or DC (or even that they want to submit work and don't want to stick with the webcomics). Based on the large amount of young girls doing OEL manga's through Tokyopop, they're pitching elsewhere.

Again. Ghettoizing female creators into creating work for "young girls" and only in manga format is part of the problem, not the solution. Men make both manga and "traditional" comics. So should women. Many more women. Many many many more. So many more that it NEVER becomes a topic when discussing their work.

For decades female animators were relegated to doing the, admittedly stunning, backgrounds in Disney films. Why? And should they not have been upset that their male counterparts, simply by virtue of their maleness, got to do the actual animating? Wouldn't it have been a logical response, had such a possiblity existed, for a competitor to have created a haven for those women who were kept out of the forefront? Of course it would. Ms. H can't do that so, I'm assuming, this is the next best thing. If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected by one of the two people here who might actually know.

For most of its history the American comics industry has been a closed door to anyone who wasn't a white male. This is a clear and unassailable fact. Any attempt to chip away at that paradigm, from within or without, has to be seen as a positive response to that.

In the case of higher education and expensive tuition fees? It's pretty obvious they need money so they can pay for tuition fees. If they already have the money, then give the scholarship to an academically-deserving kid who doesn't have the money.

Again, that would depend solely on the discression of the person creating the scholarship or grant. If that person isn't you, you don't get to have an opinion.

[Typo Lad]

I bet Ms. Hernandez could post that her first name is Leah and people would take issue with it.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

[Sabrinaset]

I confess, I don't get the Devin gag.

Oh, all right...

It's my way of keeping Gail from getting too big a head on her own board. Also, it's my way of marching to a different drummer. I mean, it's always Gail this, Gail that...so I talk about Devin! :)

Although, when I first started reading comics, I knew who Devin was before I knew about Gail.

And nah, I don't have a crush on Devin. It just seems like it. Besides, Kristin (my g/f) would kill me. She gets jealous easy.

[Gail Simone]

The problem with that gag is...

...I ADORE Devin Grayson. I love her work, I love her meaty brain, and she's been nothing but wonderful to me since I first met her. So any nice things you say about her only make me nod my head in agreement.

She kicks ass, and is way underrated as a huge influence on today's comics.

Gail

[TCJohnson]

So any nice things you say about her only make me nod my head in agreement.

Which makes it cute instead of mean spirited.

[TCJohnson]

Oh, all right...

It's my way of keeping Gail from getting too big a head on her own board.

Wouldn't you really need a time machine for that?

[Sabrinaset]

I'm not trying to be mean spirited anyways! I actually DO prefer Devin's stuff to Gails. ..although I'm not entirely sure I'd say he had a meaty brain. I'm a conservative, so I only eat babies and Scientoligists. It's zombies who go for brains. Or ECW fans. They like Zombies. In any event...I like teasing Gail by reminding her how wonderful Devin is. But since it isn't making Gail jealous, I'll just haveta try something else. Like comparing her to Bendis. Or Frank Miller.

Bottom line, when it comes to Devin and Gail...they are both great femaleses.

[Charles RB]

Not yet.

How many more big bundles of sacks marked "$$$" do they have to get from bookstores before they count as mainstream?

And the strong implication from your statement is "Gals, if you want to do comics, you'd better stick to manga."

No, the strong implication is many of them are sticking to manga or want to make manga, and Tokyopop makes enough money to count as mainstream.

What about Thor? What about the Punisher? What about Wolverine? Off limits?

Thor should be off limits to everyone, so he can stop embarrassing the ghosts of Vikings with his complete non-Norseness.

And I'm not stopping girls writing those titles. I'm not even sure the companies would - Ann Nocenti had a long run on Daredevil, Gail got her mitts on Superman and seemingly half the DCU's bad guys. However, how many girls making webcomics want to write for those characters and not, say, characters they own like they're already doing (only paid to)? The grant is to assist girls in making webcomics and not assisting them in pitching to Marvel, after all.

My mistake. None of those other companies can be considered "mainstream"

Based on what? Sales? Tokyopop sells shedloads. Oni, Top Shelf and Fantagraphics? I'm not entirely sure how much they sell outside the direct market, but on some titles I hear it's quite a bit. Then there's the publisher who did Persopolis and Jimmy Corrigan, whose name I can't remember - they're mainstream. Those two OGNs are massive sellers outside of comics shops (and inside quite a few comic shops too).

and nothing they do meaningfully affects the position of women or minorities in the mainstream.

Tokyopop is an entirely new company hiring several dozen new female creators, where they're getting paid to make new comics (as opposed to working off pre-existing licenses) and they're managing outside of the traditional direct market, and many of their readers (and many of them are allegedly girls) are going "I want to do that!". You telling me that isn't causing an impact?

And even with the other companies, I'd think seeing Chynna Clugston-Major creating her own work that she owns at Oni Press would have more of an impact on impressional female readers than if she was drawing Defenders.

Well, it's clearly as much a political act as it is a philanthropic one.

Well, obviously. That doesn't mean it's shedding "light on the work of creators who, simply by virtue of their gender, have been excluded from the mainstream of their profession" - because you don't know and I don't know and Lea doesn't know if the four creators have ever submitted to the 'mainstream' companies or even give a crap about doing so. The grant's not even focused on those companies. It's focused on webcomics, and helping four women continue to make their own webcomics; if anything, that's shining a light on the work of creators who, by their own choice, are making work outside of the old mainstream and then helping them continue to do so.

And that's good. With luck, they'll end up as the really fortunate folk who make money off their webcomics and don't need a day job. Living off your own creation, which is read by thousands globally who may then think "I want to/could make my own webcomic too!"? Much more valuable than drawing Wolverine.

Again. Ghettoizing female creators into creating work for "young girls" and only in manga format is part of the problem, not the solution.

I didn't say that. I said that the young girls are the ones making the comics. Which is a good thing, surely? Does it matter what the format is as long as it's being read by large numbers? And how is it ghettoizing? That would imply it's detrimental to them, and based on the numbers of OEL manga, it doesn't look very detrimental - their own original work is getting published, they're getting paid for it, and sizeable numbers of people are reading it.

Men make both manga and "traditional" comics. So should women.

They should work in whatever format they want. Why would I want to complain if many of them want to work specifically in manga format? I don't complain that there are British writers who like working specifically in the weekly anthology format.

So many more that it NEVER becomes a topic when discussing their work.

I can't really recall the last time I made it a topic when discussing a female creator's work. Generally I go "cool! Scandal bit someone's ear off!". (And that was very cool)

For most of its history the American comics industry has been a closed door to anyone who wasn't a white male.

No, Marvel & DC have been a closed door to anyone who wasn't a white male (and a closed door to any white male who didn't want to write superheroes). The other companies, not so much and they're still not. Near as I can see, many female creators aren't even bothering with Marvel & DC.

What I am seeing is that a sodding legion of them make webcomics. Leah's grant is aimed at them, so they can keep making webcomics. Marvel & DC has nothing to do with it, and personally I think financial support in making their own original comics is better anyway. We get long-lasting new comics out of it. I like long-lasting new comics.

Again, that would depend solely on the discression of the person creating the scholarship or grant.

True, but I can have the opinion that they're bloody daft if they're giving scholarship money to students who aren't in the lower-economic brackets. I don't give a monkey's what ethnic group they are.

[Red Jack]

How many more big bundles of sacks marked "$$$" do they have to get from bookstores before they count as mainstream?

When they actually cross over into the mainstream pop cultural consciousness such that you don't need to be told what manga is in order to understand it or know it exists.

Even people who don't read them know precisely what comic books are and how they work.

Manga hasn't reached saturation point yet and, as a result, cannot yet be considered mainstream. Indeed, despite its current popularity, it could still disappear completely next year. There's no guarantee that it will be able to sustain itself indefintely in the US as it has in Japan. We'll see.

Marvel and DC are the mainstream. Everything else is off-center. I'll leave it to people like Gail to say what creators were and were not denied work simply by virtue of their gender and whether or not that exclusionary pattern exists and has in comcs across the board.

One doesn't need every individual to suffer the hardship for the pattern to exist, be recognized and fought.

And you may not care what ethnicity a given individual is but, and this is based on just your posts, I'm assuming you are a white male. Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously). Ethnicty counts brother. Gender counts. Both affirmatively (for people like the Bushs and the Kennedy's) and negatively (for people like me).

As a black male, there are a helluva lot more concerns than relative poverty when it comes to populating schools, businesses and governments.

I don't have the luxury of looking at things through a strictly economic lense. Very very very few people do.

As for the rest, I think we can call it a wash.

[Ian Boothby]

No. One, the first sentence seems to contradict the following graph and two, while the meat of the post seems to express the more or less correct sentiment, it waters it down, IMO. And, of course, Affirmative Action doesn't suck. Not even a little tiny bit.

Well that's a pretty extreme point of view. Dividing people up by race/sex/sexual orientation isn't even a little tiny bit wrong? There's no dangerous side to that at all? Can't agree.

[Ian Boothby]

I confess, I don't get the Devin gag.

Gail


I think the joke was for boys only.

[Corrina]

When they actually cross over into the mainstream pop cultural consciousness such that you don't need to be told what manga is in order to understand it or know it exists.



Well, maybe not the adult pop culture cred.

I, on the other hand, gained major brownie points from the friends of my teenage daughter for getting free manga, especially Full Metal Alchemist, to review.

There's mainstream pop cultural consciousness and there's teenage pop culture consciousness. And no one has to explain to teenage kids what manga is in the least. It's all over the television, it's in their video games and it's in their bookstores. Like Britney Spears, we clueless adults will soon know all about it too.

[Red Jack]

Well that's a pretty extreme point of view. Dividing people up by race/sex/sexual orientation isn't even a little tiny bit wrong? There's no dangerous side to that at all? Can't agree.


No. It's a repsonse, a really small response, to an extreme and physically oppressive POV. It doesn't exist in a vacuum but as a reaction to oppression.

[Red Jack]

Well, maybe not the adult pop culture cred.

I, on the other hand, gained major brownie points from the friends of my teenage daughter for getting free manga, especially Full Metal Alchemist, to review.

There's mainstream pop cultural consciousness and there's teenage pop culture consciousness. And no one has to explain to teenage kids what manga is in the least. It's all over the television, it's in their video games and it's in their bookstores. Like Britney Spears, we clueless adults will soon know all about it too.

That's why I said, "We'll see."

[Citizen V]

Why is there a whole grant for women only?Sure,the comic industry is still male dominated,but why are women making a effert to get their voices out?

Its not going to make a difference...you cant change things that are nearly in stone...

[Ian Boothby]

Ms. Hernandez is a woman. Women, like non-whites, have been traditionally excluded from the backstage of comics. While it could be argued that non-white males have made some gains (mostly in terms of the art chores, not so much in the editorial or writing) women are still pretty much shut out.


I'll make sure to tell my wife Pia Guerra that.

[Red Jack]

I'll make sure to tell my wife Pia Guerra that.

Anecdotal evidence is crap. I've got a comic book coming out and two more on deck that I can't discuss. If you looked at my life, alone, you'd say, "WOW! Blacks sure have made some strides backstage in comics."

It's bunk. My example is not representative and it's not because I'm the black Alan Moore (I'm not).

There is no parity of opportunity for non-white males or non-males. Some of this is due to the handshake-networking aspect of comics (all entertainment really), some is due to insitutional resistance to The New and some is due to ethnic/gender bias. Those few members of the various Out groups that manage to make it over the fence have done so by a combination of hard work, skill and good luck.

And, if they're honest, they'll admit it. I do. Constantly.

The field isn't close to being level. Anything that forces the high end a little further down and the low end a little further up is good in my book.

Which will be available at SDCC in July!

Seacrest OUT!

[stealthwise]

Besides the actual number of males and females writing in comics right now, what's the evidence for an imbalance of opportunity? I ask out of interest, not to spark snarky comments towards me.

[Gail Simone]

Why is there a whole grant for women only?Sure,the comic industry is still male dominated,but why are women making a effert to get their voices out?

Its not going to make a difference...you cant change things that are nearly in stone...


Bullpoop.

Gail

[Red Jack]

Besides the actual number of males and females writing in comics right now, what's the evidence for an imbalance of opportunity? I ask out of interest, not to spark snarky comments towards me.

What do you mean by evidence? Also not being snarky.

[Ian Boothby]

Anecdotal evidence is crap. I've got a comic book coming out and two more on deck that I can't discuss. If you looked at my life, alone, you'd say, "WOW! Blacks sure have made some strides backstage in comics."

It's bunk. My example is not representative and it's not because I'm the black Alan Moore (I'm not)!

If real life examples such as a woman being the co creator and artist on the number one Vertigo book don't enter into the equation and it's just about numbers and percentages of races/sexes and so on in the business then fine, play that game. But that path doesn't lead anywhere good.

When you discriminate based on sex or race you might think it helps the balance but it also creates little ghettos. It puts an * next to the person that they have to get past.
That's the tiny bit of a problem with affermative action.

[Ell Aich]

I'll make sure to tell my wife Pia Guerra that.

With all respect to Pia, Ian, Red jack isn't wrong because Pia's working.

[Ian Boothby]

What do you mean by evidence? Also not being snarky.

If an editor has two pages of art in front of them. One drawn by a man and one a woman, what's the evidence the editor will favour the mans? If there are two scripts, one written by a man, one a woman the same question. Does the woman have less of an opportunity?

[Ell Aich]

If real life examples such as a woman being the co creator and artist on the number one Vertigo book don't enter into the equation and it's just about numbers and percentages of races/sexes and so on in the business then fine, play that game. But that path doesn't lead anywhere good.

When you discriminate based on sex or race you might think it helps the balance but it also creates little ghettos. It puts an * next to the person that they have to get past.
That's the tiny bit of a problem with affermative action.

That's an easy position to take from where Pia is, and ignores the reality of how most of comics has been and still is.

That's distraction. It's "Pia has a job and everything's equal because Pia has a job!"

Ian, it's not. You'll be proud to know you've used the same word "ghetto" that Ted Rall used to describe GirlAMatic.com, at The Comics Journal messageboard, before it was ever launched. In the same discussion, Carol Lay, one woman amongst a group of six cartoonists at Salon, declared GAM unneccessary because she had a job at Salon. In the same discussion, Megan Kelso, who was editing an all-female anthology, said GAM was bad, but her anthology was better because it had a theme.

Stop persisting in your illusion that everything is great in comics because everything is great in comics for Pia (Gail, Devin). That is minimizing what women working in comics still face, whether you mean for it to or not.

[Ian Boothby]

With all respect to Pia, Ian, Red jack isn't wrong because Pia's working.

No but Pia is an example of someone making it by just working her ass off. Not because of affermative action or as a political statement but because she was the best person for the job.

Gail is a top writer because she's great at what she does and constantly strives to improve. And she has. Her writing is exciting and her characters ring true.

Devin Grayson take brave risks and pushes her characters to the limits. She's a good writer and personally it bothers me that in the press for Batwoman they're using her sexual orientation in stories about it. It's okay that she writes about a gay woman because she's bi. The writing should stand or fall on its own.

I used to do a lot of work for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation here in Canada and often they'd try and create diversity in their programs. But because there weren't enough people of a certain race with enough experience to do the job they'd get hired before they were ready and it just made it look like diverse programming was crap. It didn't help anyone. It was the illusion of diversity.

Maybe it's different in a factory or an office but when you've got something creative like writing or art, the work should be able to speak for itself.

[Ell Aich]

If an editor has two pages of art in front of them. One drawn by a man and one a woman, what's the evidence the editor will favour the mans? If there are two scripts, one written by a man, one a woman the same question. Does the woman have less of an opportunity?

Ian, I have AMPLE anecdotal evidence that editors DO see art differently based on whether they believe the artist is male or female. Colleen Doran has told stories. Linda Medley has stories.

I must refer you to Dan Jacobsen's essay, which I would hope every person reading ths discussion would read before they add to it (even though this is not my board):
http://burningbronte.blogspot.com/2006/01/refrigerator-culture-and-privilege.html

"There has not been a single post made by a woman on this subject (sexism in comics) that did not have, somewhere in the comments, a variation on the theme of "most men in comics and fandom aren't like that." This is a statement of distraction and avoidance. For one thing, it goes without saying. People who are not the problem...are not the problem. By shifting the focus off of the offenders and onto all of the decent people, we allow the offenders to keep on keeping on, and that doesn't do anyone any good.If I get mugged, I don't want someone who is ostensibly a well-wisher to come up to me and say, "well, the majority of people don't go around mugging, so relax." It doesn't help. It distracts."

Seriously, read it. You will, if you are being honest with yourself, see yourself in it. I know you are trying to help. But you are, in fact, NOT.

[Ell Aich]

No but Pia is an example of someone making it by just working her ass off.

That is absolutely true, Ian, as are your other examples. There are also women who work their asses off and hit the wall again and again.

[Ian Boothby]

Stop persisting in your illusion that everything is great in comics because everything is great in comics for Pia (Gail, Devin). That is minimizing what women working in comics still face, whether you mean for it to or not.

Everything isn't great. If you want to make things better, then be better and get the work out there.
I'm saying use Pia's example if you want things to change. Do the work. Improve. Get seen. Don't give up.
Most people are going to fail. More than 99.9% are going to fail. When you give them the out that the industry isn't fair it's like when your folks told you the other kids were picking on you because they're jealous. It might make you feel better but it doesn't do you any good.

I don't think with art you can play the percentage game.

[Ian Boothby]

That is absolutely true, Ian, as are your other examples. There are also women who work their asses off and hit the wall again and again.

Most will hit the wall. Men too. Almost everyone. It's like winning the lotto to get on a book.

But if you don't like that wall, find another.

[Ian Boothby]

Ian, I have AMPLE anecdotal evidence that editors DO see art differently based on whether they believe the artist is male or female. Colleen Doran has told stories. Linda Medley has stories.
.

To be fair, a lot of women and men I know had issues with Colleen's art back in the day. She drew people that looked like elves when she was starting out, big eyes and eyelashes. It didn't work for the books.

Linda Medley, I'm working with her on an upcoming Simpsons book.

[Ell Aich]

Most will hit the wall. Men too. Almost everyone. It's like winning the lotto to get on a book.

But if you don't like that wall, find another.

Gosh, thanks, Ian. Had I but come to you for career advice.

I found another wall, and you seem to be unaware that I did. Because, to be honest, I don't exactly draw in a style that is in demand at the Big Two, except sporadically. (Which I didn't only quit because of the employment issue, but also because of their shitty record with how they treat female employees and female characters and having to continue to bite my tongue lest I offend.)

On one hand, you are saying if women stay in and fight, they'll make it. On the other, you're saying get out if you must. And YET AGAIN, you mention men have it tough, too. Distraction.

I found another wall. (Which your suggestions implies you aren't aware I did.) I am trying to help women over it. Why is that bad?

[Ian Boothby]

Gosh, thanks, Ian. Had I but come to you for career advice.

But it's true. If you want to work on Batman it is about as likely as winning the lotto. Go to a comic con and see that line up of folks who want the gig. And that's just those who could afford to come out. Of those folks, a very small number are good enough, of those even less can do the work on a regular basis, and the industry has room for an even small percentage of that.

It's the same with film. No one asks you to try and do this. You have to want it enough to fail over and over. And someone handing you an excuse you can use isn't helping you.

If you don't like it then find another wall. Change direction. If that's the wrong advice for you, fine but it's the right advice for most people banging their heads against a wall until they're bloody.

[Ell Aich]

If you don't like it then find another wall. Change direction. If that's the wrong advice for you, fine but it's the right advice for most people banging their heads against a wall until they're bloody.

Ian, when you talk like this, you sound like you don't know a damn thing about me or my career, so let me just tell you to stop telling me how to suck eggs.
I know how to suck eggs.

And until you say something new and worth responding to, I'm done wasting my time responding to you.

[TCJohnson]

I found another wall. (Which your suggestions implies you aren't aware I did.) I am trying to help women over it. Why is that bad?


I don't think it is bad and I don't think Ian does either. I don't think anybody thinks the playing field is level. I was saying it sucks that things like this are needed. And I believe Ian was saying that it is possible for a woman to be successful without having a helping hand like this, which ain't the same as saying what you are doing is a bad thing.

Is that close, Ian?

[Sabrinaset]

Well, Ell Aich, I'm all for what you're doing, and if it weren't for the fact that I can't write or draw at all, I would sign up.

I mean, if you need a useless girl, then I'm in!

[Ian Boothby]

Ian, when you talk like this, you sound like you don't know a damn thing about me or my career, so let me just tell you to stop telling me how to suck eggs.
I know how to suck eggs.

And until you say something new and worth responding to, I'm done wasting my time responding to you.

I really don't know much about your career. Again, the advice I'm giving might not be right for you but it is for the vast majority of people trying this.

But I do know this. I'm trying my best to be polite to you. If this is the way you are with other professionals, then I wish you the best of luck.

[Ian Boothby]

I don't think it is bad and I don't think Ian does either. I don't think anybody thinks the playing field is level. I was saying it sucks that things like this are needed. And I believe Ian was saying that it is possible for a woman to be successful without having a helping hand like this, which ain't the same as saying what you are doing is a bad thing.

Is that close, Ian?

This came from Red Jack saying there was nothing wrong with Affirmative Action, even the tiniest bit. I think there is.

You can give money to whoever you want and it great that you're doing something to give a hand up. No one makes it along. I don't totally agree with your criteria but it's not my time or money.

[Red Jack]

If real life examples such as a woman being the co creator and artist on the number one Vertigo book don't enter into the equation and it's just about numbers and percentages of races/sexes and so on in the business then fine, play that game. But that path doesn't lead anywhere good.

When you discriminate based on sex or race you might think it helps the balance but it also creates little ghettos. It puts an * next to the person that they have to get past. That's the tiny bit of a problem with affermative action.

You think a little * is going to bug anyone? It only exists in the minds of people who put the barriers up in the first place. The issue isn't changing those minds anyway. They aren't changing. The issue is getting the job(s). Trust me. That * is COMPLETELY meaningless.

Nobody who has had to deal with the action that created the need for Affirmative Action would ever suggest otherwise.

[Ian Boothby]

You think a little * is going to bug anyone? It only exists in the minds of people who put the barriers up in the first place. The issue isn't changing those minds anyway. They aren't changing. The issue is getting the job(s). Trust me. That * is COMPLETELY meaningless.

Nobody who has had to deal with the action that created the need for Affirmative Action would ever suggest otherwise.


Okay here's something recent for me. I was putting together a sketch comedy show for TV. The CBC went and hired some inexperienced performers who had Asian backgrounds. Now I work with a performer who also has an Asian background and who is hilarious and with years of experience. But it didn't matter to CBC because by that point they'd filled in their quota. So in this case false diversity took a job away from a more qualified person of colour.

Could they have just looked harder and found this person? Or changed their mind once he was brought to their attention? Nope, because hiring by quota makes you lazy and other criteria become less important. It's bullshit. But it looks good.

Okay, that's a lie. In the end the show didn't look good. I quit (for other family reasons as well) and the show stunk.


And as an example of a creative person who'll live with an * . Dat Phan. You notice how they never mention him when they list the folks whose careers Last Comic Standing launched?
He got on the Tonight Show waaaaaaaay before he was ready. Does that help the cause or hurt it?

[Gail Simone]

It's possible to respectfully disagree on this idea, and I hope that's where you guys end this.

Gail

[Ian Boothby]

It's possible to respectfully disagree on this idea, and I hope that's where you guys end this.

Gail

If you'd like this to end, it's over.

[Gail Simone]

Lea's posted her response on her own board, so I'm sure we'll have some visitors.

Just so it's clear to everyone, I don't ban or censor people. I don't believe in it. Everyone here is welcome to express their opinion and I'm welcome to respond to it for good or ill. Others feel very differently and that's fine, but here, even egregious opinions are usually welcome.

Ian and Lea are both people I know and respect, and I'm sure I'll be called milquetoast for saying it but damned if I can't see both sides of this argument, although in the end, I think condemning Lea's generous offer is a mistake.

I've always gone out of my way to achieve whatever position I'm at at any given moment on my own merits. However, if I hadn't had the opportunities of Yabs, Killer Princesses, and my Simpsons work at Bongo, the results could have been completely different. My belief is that I repaid those opportunities with the best work I could do and my best ability to promote that work. But the point is, hustling scripts around to bored editors at conventions wouldn't work for me.

I do get flustered when anyone (and I'm not pointing fingers here) implies that all females feel the same about this, or that any one solution works for all of us. But I think it's clear as glass that Lea's only trying to spotlight some talented women to hopefully give them a chance they might not have otherwise.

Lea's approaching this in a manner 100% consistant with her beliefs. And I do believe that a little help up to open doors for groups that HAVE PROVEABLY had a harder time breaking in is a good thing. Eventually, yes, I hope there are no asterisks of any kind. Lea, I would also say that working in the mainstream hasn't precluded me from criticising work that I felt was sexist either in public or private. I've made myself a squeaky, angry wheel any number of times, just saying.

Ian, I get your point, but clearly what Lea's trying to do is support a class of creator that she feels, with good reason, has been marginalized and made to feel unwelcome to some degree. The fact that a handful of creators at the big two are female, I think, says a lot more could be done. Lea's plan could well bring us the next Linda Medley and I say that is to be applauded and emulated. Would, for example, it bother you if a Canadian creator came up with a scholarship aimed at promoting Canadian talent?

As I say, I hate to think of two talented creators taking personal offense where I don't think any is intended. That's my take on it, right or wrong. Probably wrong.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

If you'd like this to end, it's over.

I'm always fine with debate, Ian, you know that.

I'm just saying I hate for it to be about personalities rather than the issue at hand.

Gail

[Red Jack]

Okay here's something recent for me. I was putting together a sketch comedy show for TV. The CBC went and hired some inexperienced performers who had Asian backgrounds. Now I work with a performer who also has an Asian background and who is hilarious and with years of experience. But it didn't matter to CBC because by that point they'd filled in their quota. So in this case false diversity took a job away from a more qualified person of colour.

Could they have just looked harder and found this person? Or changed their mind once he was brought to their attention? Nope, because hiring by quota makes you lazy and other criteria become less important. It's bullshit. But it looks good.

Okay, that's a lie. In the end the show didn't look good. I quit (for other family reasons as well) and the show stunk.

Do I really have to run around the web to get counterbalancing anecdotes from industry pros and ex pros? Because such a deluge would be pretty brutal.

Of course there's hard work involved and of course not everybody gets the brass ring. Paul Newman called that the "brutality of luck" and he wasn't kidding. That's a given and we, as morituri, accept it. Just make sure all the swords and sheilds are up to equal spec and that the fix isn't in for your old college buddy. If they're not, if it is, improvisation and invention will be the response for those who perceive the unfairness and still wish to compete. And not a little stealth.

The implication in your "work harder, be better" philosophy is that those who aren't getting where they need to get have a clear field ahead and are just not pushing as hard as the next person to get through.

That's convenient and it makes for a nice series of backpats but it just isn't the goods. If working harder were enough, the comics industry would be dominated by Filipinos and Jamaicans.

We're talking about an inherently subjective business, first of all. And we're talking about comfort zones. I'm good with people so I get further than the next guy, up to a point. When that point is simply "Yeah, I'm not feeling the cyborg vampire thing today, Geoff," no harm no foul. It's the editor's job to shut down (or, at least, not buy) ideas he or she beleives won't serve the company's vision.

When I walk into an office where my work has preceded me and it's clear that no one was expecting a black guy, I get a little tense. That has happened and continues to happen often enough to make it a career issue.

Hard work might get you to the door if you sign your name G. Simone or L. Hernandez but, once you're through it, it's the comfort zone of the gatekeepers that lets you stick around or boots you. Or do we all agree that EVERYONE writing and drawing comics today, mainstream comics, are the absolute tops the field has to offer? No. I don't think we do. Some are amazing, yes. And some should get the hell out of the way and let some new players flex. (again, not talking about myself.) The rate of attrition would be brutal if it were simply hard work and talent that won the day. But it's not.

I've read some of the tales told by women trying to navigate the backstage. They dovetail nicely with my own experiences and those of others in other Out groups. Some of them were names I knew before I read the tales. It wasn't the lack of hard work that kept them out. Or forced them to back away.

It's the comfort zones of the boys already inside. In ADDITION to the normal gladitorial aspects, members of Out groups have to face a host of things that the "normal" gladiator does not.

So I applaud Gail for making it work on the inside. God knows what crap she's had to dodge. And I applaud Lea for sticking up for the "little" gal in the way that she is able. They are two prongs of the same fork.

No. There's nothing wrong with Affirmative Action beyond the name. It should have been called Affirmative Response to strike the proper chord.

[Ian Boothby]

Lea's posted her response on her own board, so I'm sure we'll have some visitors.

Just so it's clear to everyone, I don't ban or censor people. I don't believe in it. Everyone here is welcome to express their opinion and I'm welcome to respond to it for good or ill. Others feel very differently and that's fine, but here, even egregious opinions are usually welcome.

Ian and Lea are both people I know and respect, and I'm sure I'll be called milquetoast for saying it but damned if I can't see both sides of this argument, although in the end, I think condemning Lea's generous offer is a mistake.


Not condemning. Not even close. I'm all for grants to help a person get a hand up. I don't agree 100% with the criteria but again, not my money. Good on Lea for funding something she believes in.
I don't like when someone uses the old, "When you have something intelligent to say I'll come back to this discussion" thing which I felt I was getting. It felt rude and worth calling her on. But I'll drop that now.

NOTE: Just checked out Lea's blog and noticed I basically got called stupid on there. Again, letting it go but that's the last shot I'm taking.

Frankly I don't know how this became a back and forth with me and Lea. And also I didn't realize it was Lea at first with her screen name. Red Jack doesn't believe Affirmative Action can be the tiniest bit wrong and that's what I was debating against. That you feel there's two sides to this puts us both on the same page of the hymn book. For Red, there's the one side.

I do think this is a big issue. If you ignore real people and dismiss them as the exception that proves the rule then all we've got is statistics.

[Ian Boothby]

The implication in your "work harder, be better" philosophy is that those who aren't getting where they need to get have a clear field ahead and are just not pushing as hard as the next person to get through.
.

No, working harder just increases your odds to microscopic from sub-microscopic. There's still thousands of people who are trying to get through that same small door and no matter how hard you push there's very very very little chance to make it through.

But if this is what you love, then don't let that stop you.

[Pia Guerra]

Well it looks like you guys dragged the anecdote into the room.

One of the first things I tell young noobs asking for advice in breaking in (male or female) is to LISTEN. When you present a portfolio to an industry professional that person has been given an invitation to critique you. It may be full of praise, complementing you on your brilliance and stylisitic choices but more often than you'd like it will be a brutal thrashing. They will tell you to re-learn anatomy, they will ask you where the hell you learned perspective, they will wonder aloud what the hell you were thinking transitioning a static medium shot into another static medium shot. They will tear your folio apart.

And not everyone can handle that. The instinctive response of course is to defend your choices, to explain why your Batman sample page has no backgrounds and that's where my second piece of advice comes from: DON'T.

The reason being that if you listen long enough, you will start to get a picture of what you're doing wrong, of what is blocking you from being a bankable to these companies. If 9 out of 10 editors are telling you your backgrounds suck, well chances are...they suck, and maybe you should consider brushing up on those skills. Being defensive of your choices will only make it harder to hear where you need to improve.

The comics industry is very intimidating, probably a bit more so for women who aren't used to hearing this kind of feedback because guess what? We're pretty much conditioned from birth to "be nice". And for this reason I applaud Lea for giving space for these girls to step up and show what they have. Not to coddle them but to let them know there are people in the biz who will be supportive, who will offer advice on how to tackle such a seemingly hostile environment, and also to start getting used to the feedback, because there's a lot more ahead if they keep at it... and it won't all be nice.

Now I'm not going to stand here and say "Hey we're all equal now so you shouldn't have any problems breaking in!" because that's just dumb. There are inequalities, there are obstacles, but I will say those obstacles can be awfully distracting from what you should be focusing on, doing better.

When I started out the majority of first responses to my folio were "wow, you don't draw like a girl." On occasion I took offence at this but usually because the guy saying it was clearly a slimeball (one editor on the Beauty and the Beast tv show adaptation comes to mind), but I was also hearing this from perfectly reasonable people who weren't assholes, and their surprise was kinda genuine, as if to say "well, this is refreshing" which led me to wonder what I was doing that was so different?

The only answer I could come up with is that I didn't read the same comics that other girls did growing up. I didn't like Archie, Disney, Little Lulu, Richie Rich or Little Dot and though I watched a lot of Battle of the Planets and Starblazers manga didn't really exist for me back then. I started out with X-Men, Teen Titans, Batman and Superman, later branching out to the Shadow (Helfer and Baker's ultra-violent version), Hellblazer and Sandman.

And yes, that affected my style just as some of those girl's comics probably influenced those who read them, just as Seth was influenced by the New Yorker cartoons he read growing up.

As the years went on I heard less and less of the "you don't draw like a girl" more likely because there were more women getting into the biz who were influenced by the same kinds of comics I was influenced by. I know plenty of women under 35 who tell me how Teen Titans, Watchmen and Daredevil changed their lives than I do those over 35 who weren't in their teens when those groundbreaking titles came out.

My dear husband guy over here sends comics to the daughters of a friend of his. They are aged 12 and 8 and they are absolutely crazy for Villains United and Birds of Prey. Along with the Simpsons comics they bring these books to school and share them with other girls who sure enough eat the violent fare up. They can't get enough of it. That old stigma that certain comics aren't for girls just isn't there anymore and I suspect the face of the industry will be changing quite dramatically over the next 20 years as more girls give it a go. The fact that girls are becoming more aggressive themselves as gender roles become less rigid can only help them because like it or not, the main obstacle in this business is whether you can develop a thick hide. Not just for the misogynistic assholes you may encounter but just for the critiques that can turn even the strongest psyche right off.

I've often been asked if whether my gender played a factor in not getting a job, or more recently of course, getting the job on a book about a plague that wipes out all the men. I know for a fact that Brian picked me for my abilities, as did Heidi who was just getting sick of seeing me get turned down for book after book (many of those from Vertigo which I don't have to remind anyone is run by a chick), and that's all that matters to me. I could speculate on how my gender may have influenced editors too concerned with turning off readers with a dreaded "chick lit" label but why? It's a waste of energy and it just gives me an excuse to be defensive and not listen for the clues I can use to improve myself.

The average time to break in these days is 6 years. I heard that from a guy. It took me ten, but it also took me a long time to figure out what was flawed with my style so which truth do I latch on to? That I was beaten down by the man or that I wasn't listening properly? I'll take the latter if only to encourage me to keep working instead of sitting around being angry at why I'm not working.

Sorry for the huge post, sometimes I get all girly and just have to stand by my man y'know?

[matterconsumer]

I don't agree 100% with the criteria but again, not my money.

Well this is likely to make Lea scratch her head and wonder.

Let's see if I can bring your points together.

She's trying to provide an opportunity for women to be able to showcase their work. These few women will gain experience by producing work. Improving their craft.

Ian, your point is about people being qualified to do the work that they're given. Seems to me that this is just the sort of opportunity to help a few women become better qualified.

[Patience]

Well this is likely to make Lea scratch her head and wonder.

Let's see if I can bring your points together.

She's trying to provide an opportunity for women to be able to showcase their work. These few women will gain experience by producing work. Improving their craft.

Ian, your point is about people being qualified to do the work that they're given. Seems to me that this is just the sort of opportunity to help a few women become better qualified.

That may be the most intelligent thing I've heard about any event involving women in comics in the past six months of WFA links.

[Gail Simone]

That may be the most intelligent thing I've heard about any event involving women in comics in the past six months of WFA links.


Yeah, so SHUT UP, Matter! :)

And great post, Pia. I'm gonna write about my own responses from editors when I get past this deadline thing.

Gail

[Ian Boothby]

Well this is likely to make Lea scratch her head and wonder.

Let's see if I can bring your points together.

She's trying to provide an opportunity for women to be able to showcase their work. These few women will gain experience by producing work. Improving their craft.

Ian, your point is about people being qualified to do the work that they're given. Seems to me that this is just the sort of opportunity to help a few women become better qualified.

A person's sex isn't the criteria I'd use for a grant but I'm not the one giving the grant is what I'm saying.

And I am saying good on Lea for this. One of my pet peeves is when someone does something for say the SPCA and they get slammed for not giving the money to people with AIDS and then if they do that why didn't you give it to cancer research and heart disease. It makes a person not want to give at all.

What Lea's doing is of the good. And you're right, getting experience in front of readers is the best way to improve.

[Gail Simone]

Congratulations, someone wants to do a column on this thread.

Jesus Christ, what a load the internet is, sometimes. What a self-perpetuating mess of drama and goofiness, and none seemingly are immune.

Except Kurt Busiek.

Gail

[Typo Lad]

The Internet: builder and destroyer of peoples!

[Gail Simone]

Just amazed at how we all seem to go from zero to moronic in 4.5 seconds when typing in front of a monitor, sometimes!

Gail

[Cam63]

Practice helps.

[Gail Simone]

I'm going to do a column of my own, about various kinds of soap.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

For Christ's sake, it's just a difference of opinion. I don't get why that has to become a calamity and then a lifelong war, but that's how the internet operates sometimes. I LIKE people who challenge my beliefs.

If everyone just said, "Okay, I strongly disagree," and left it at that, imagine how mature we'd all seem, for pete's sake.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

By the way, for those who don't know, Lea's livejournal is at www.livejournal.com/users/divalea.

For the love of god, I beg you, don't go to start trouble. Only go if you have something worthwhile and adult to add, or if you just want to hear Lea elaborate.

And for the record, I still think these grants are a nice, generous, and worthwhile idea.

Gail

[Cam63]

How dare you make sense !?

[Cam63]

I'm going to do a column of my own, about various kinds of soap.

Gail

What about soap that's edible ?

...Slightly edible, that is.

[Gail Simone]

How dare you make sense !?


Quiet, you!

And you observers from Lea's board. First, welcome.

And now, a public service message.

Ian and Pia are NOT THE ENEMY. They just had a different point of view, and it's not like they don't have plenty of experience to support that point of view. I'm already seeing distortions of what both sides said and I would ask EVERYONE to rise above that kind of nonsense and see that all three of these people are sincere and believe what they're saying. I've known Ian and Pia for years and two nicer, more generous, or more fair-minded people you will NEVER meet.

DON'T MAKE IT ANY WORSE, I'm BEGGING ya. Let the people involved sort it out, should they feel the need.

Gail

[Cam63]

What the writer sheila wrote.

[Gail Simone]

What the writer sheila wrote.


I thought I told you to be QUIET!

Gail

[Cam63]

I need beer for that.

[Cam63]

This is me being quiet.

Who's playing that muzak tape !?

[Cam63]

*Shoots muzak tape*

Oh...There's an " off " button I could've used.

[Charles RB]

When they actually cross over into the mainstream pop cultural consciousness such that you don't need to be told what manga is in order to understand it or know it exists.

You seem to be working of a different criteria for "mainstream" then me then. If it sells shedloads and lots of people are reading it, then I think it's mainstream. Since Tokyopop fits that criteria, they're a mainstream company. Same with the bods publishing Persopolis and Jimmy Corrigan.

Even people who don't read them know precisely what comic books are and how they work.

Manga are comics. What else would they be?

Indeed, despite its current popularity, it could still disappear completely next year.

No it couldn't. It's selling too much and is far too influential on other areas of youth culture to disappear completely.

Marvel and DC are the mainstream. Everything else is off-center.

Persopolis, Jimmy Corrigan and The Shadow Of No Towers are "off-center"? That'll surprise the company publishing them and the bookstores selling them. All three sell in the hundreds of thousands last I heard; that's definately mainstream numbers.

I'll leave it to people like Gail to say what creators were and were not denied work simply by virtue of their gender

Except you specifically said that Leah's grant was for creators who'd been excluded from Marvel & DC solely because of their gender, even though you can't show whether or not they've tried submitting work to Marvel & DC or are interested in doing so. Bit late to leave it to Gail, really.

And you may not care what ethnicity a given individual is but, and this is based on just your posts, I'm assuming you are a white male.

How astute. Now work out my nationality, regionality, sexuality, religion, political belief, economic class and which sports team I support based on just my posts.

White males aren't a monolithic group.

Ethnicty counts brother. Gender counts.

We were talking about people's work. How, exactly, does ethnicity and gender count when it comes to someone's work in comics & how good it is, or any work for that matter?

As a black male, there are a helluva lot more concerns than relative poverty when it comes to populating schools

What's the point in giving scholarship money to a black male who's middle-class and able to afford higher education already?


There is no parity of opportunity for non-white males or non-males.

I'm looking at OEL manga, indie comic companies and webcomics, and they all say different - especially webcomics, where all you need is some talent and a computer and voila, you're making a comic. Lots of female webcomic creators, probably non-white male ones as well (it's a little hard to tell online unless they specifically tell you).

And since Leah's grant covers webcomics, she seems to be thinking "this is good! More of this, please!" rather than "get girls working for Marvel!".

[Charles RB]

My dear husband guy over here sends comics to the daughters of a friend of his. They are aged 12 and 8 and they are absolutely crazy for Villains United

See, that's what we need to attract more kids to comics - violence! Beatdowns and ear-bitings for all!

[Sabrinaset]

I'll volunteer my little bratty brother for that.

I'll just tie him up and leave him on the curb with a sign that says "Please help the comics industry. Beat up my brother."

[Cam63]

See, that's what we need to attract more kids to comics - violence! Beatdowns and ear-bitings for all!

That's paradise for ya.

[Cam63]

I'll volunteer my little bratty brother for that.

I'll just tie him up and leave him on the curb with a sign that says "Please help the comics industry. Beat up my brother."

Hmm... How much would he offer to have us beat up you ?

I'm in a mercenary mood today.

[Red Jack]

Pia said some true things. I know many black creators who confuse their sense of accomplishment (whoopee! I crossed a self-created milestone! I'm now ready for the big time!) with being ready for The Show.

Some of these people get their backs up when confronted with the often completely arbitrary and contradictory crits they get from pros and editors at cons (Dear God could there be a WORSE environment to interveiw for work?) forgetting that the editor is a person with an opinion and the pro, frankly, has a disincentive for bringing in more competition for himself or herself. But the number of people who are unprepared for the arbitrary nature of the decision-making process does NOT account for the absense of representation in the work force, especially among writers and editorial staff.

Comic book ARTISTS are like the star athletes in sports. They get the lion's share of the hype, and of the press. It is largely the artists on whom the success or failure of a book rises or falls. As with sports, there is, among artists, a lot more diversity of ethnicity (not so much with the gender, I'm sorry to say) than in the other areas of comics publishing. Their feild is much more level. Though, even there, the ratio of males to females is insanely skewed towards men. Is it just that men are better artists or better prepared for the rigors of freelancing? The advertising world would seem to put the lie to that. As would animation. And, as I said, prose publishing.

Please describe for the class the number of women working in writing or editorial positions at the Big Two? Contrast that with the number of men. How many of the men are non-white?

Is it really anyone's contention that the disparity is solely or even largely the result of unpreparedness or lack of skill on the part of the average member of the gender in question?

If so, I think somebody is giving themselves too much credit. You cannot oversell the handshake and comfort zone aspects of hiring and opportunity as they serve to exclude people who are not part of the established In group. It doesn't have to be as sinister as true racism or genderism. It could simply be that a pattern was established long ago and remains mostly intact through inertia and habit. Or do we really think that only black men can make good rap music? The only way to break the pattern is to point it out to those who benefit from its existence and hope their better angels will assert.

Why is it that there are so many more women writers of novels than comics? Lack of female interest? Why do so many seem to leap to American manga as the best place for the ladies to thrive? There's nothing wrong with manga and I'm glad it's bringing some children, female children especially, into the fold. The more children the better. But why shunt the ladies to the left so quickly? Not all of them want to do manga.

Sure there are always anomalous individuals who can skirt the barbed wire and the mines. Even when these exclusionary bigotries were at their height there were a few who managed to squeek through. How many fingers will we need to count them?

Shining light on female creators or creators of color certainly raises their profile to the point that, if they're extremely lucky, they might be able to make a living with their web comics alone (EXTREMELY RARE) but don't kid yourself that it doesn't also bring such people to the mass atttention and, in theory, throw their hats in the ring for the big show.

I'm amazed, frankly, that there is any controversy over Lea's four grants. Or over some of the reasons I cited for applauding them.

Well. Not so amazed, really. But we have nothing if not time.

I hope this doesn't devolve into mere sniping. I think intelligent discussion of these issues should be a chronic occurence until it's no loonger necessary.

[Red Jack]

You seem to be working of a different criteria for "mainstream" then me then. If it sells shedloads and lots of people are reading it, then I think it's mainstream. Since Tokyopop fits that criteria, they're a mainstream company.

They are a niche company that is gaining ground at a fantastic rate. I still see kids explaining to other kids the difference between regular comics and the manga paperbacks. As long as that's happening, not mainstream.

Except you specifically said that Leah's grant was for creators who'd been excluded from Marvel & DC solely because of their gender, even though you can't show whether or not they've tried submitting work to Marvel & DC or are interested in doing so. Bit late to leave it to Gail, really.

No. All I have is the collected stories of various creators who have had similar experiences when banging up against the big two. While these creators differe from each other in a host of ways, they share a single common trait. None are white males. Do the math.

Since I cannot tell THEIR stories (it would be hearsay, and I might get details wrong) I leave it to them to do so if they wish.

White males aren't a monolithic group.

Odd. Part of the point of the United States is to make them precisely that. And, since, for most of our history white males have functioned that way when it comes to non-whites and non-males, we can, under certain circumstances, describe them as functionally monolithic.

We were talking about people's work. How, exactly, does ethnicity and gender count when it comes to someone's work in comics & how good it is, or any work for that matter?

Did you read Pia's post? Apparently she doesn't "draw like a girl." And Earlier there was an allusion to Coleen Doran's work as being too "girly," too stylized for the main when she first came at it. Yeah? So who's this guy, Frank Miller? Or that other guy, Rob Leifeld? Or Michael Oeming? Or that hack Jack Kirby? Please. "Draws like a girl" is code. Like "Only All-American Types Need Apply."

What's the point in giving scholarship money to a black male who's middle-class and able to afford higher education already?

Several. To promote excellence in all social classes. Diversity. Opportunity to study with particular teachers for a gifted individual. To further erode the old boy/legacy/handshake network that excludes people like him as a tradition. There are many more.

I'm looking at OEL manga, indie comic companies and webcomics, and they all say different - especially webcomics, where all you need is some talent and a computer and voila, you're making a comic.

No. All you need is a computer. Learn from J-Bolt.

And since Leah's grant covers webcomics, she seems to be thinking "this is good! More of this, please!" rather than "get girls working for Marvel!".

I think Lea would tell you, it's ALL good in the hood.

Or she might not. It's not like we know each other.

[Charles RB]

Though, even there, the ratio of males to females is insanely skewed towards men. Is it just that men are better artists or better prepared for the rigors of freelancing?

You're talking about Marvel and DC. Among the some things Pia said was that when she was breaking in, editors were surprised at her art because she'd been influenced by Marvel & DC comics, whereas many other girls had been influenced to be artists by comics that weren't superhero titles by Marvel & DC and had different art styles. Which means the editors didn't hire them to draw superhero comics.

What's the ratio of male to female comic artists outside of Marvel & DC superhero comics?

Please describe for the class the number of women working in writing or editorial positions at the Big Two? Contrast that with the number of men. How many of the men are non-white?

Dunno.

Now describe the number of women working in writing or editorial positions in comics outside of Marvel & DC, contrast that with the number of men, and then see how many of the men are non-white. I dunno the exact figure either, but it's going to be a different figure especially if you're looking at webcomics (lots of women making webcomics).

Or do we really think that only black men can make good rap music?

Based on the rap music on the charts, nobody can make good rap music. ;)

Why is it that there are so many more women writers of novels than comics? Lack of female interest?

Since you're defining comics as Marvel & DC, who are dominated by a single genre, that could indeed be the case. Maybe they want to read or write a different genre.

Why do so many seem to leap to American manga as the best place for the ladies to thrive?

Large numbers of girls & women are reading manga, and a sizeable amount are making their own. They are seemingly thriving.

Shining light on female creators or creators of color certainly raises their profile to the point that, if they're extremely lucky, they might be able to make a living with their web comics alone (EXTREMELY RARE) but don't kid yourself that it doesn't also bring such people to the mass atttention and, in theory, throw their hats in the ring for the big show.

That depends on whose attention is being drawn to them. If it's the attention of readers, how is that going to get them into working for Marvel & DC (which I presume you mean by "the big show")? If they're getting the mass attention of enough readers, they're in the position to start making some money off their comic and might not need Marvel/DC. If you mean the attention of Marvel or DC editors, they're only going to get their hats in the ring if the editor's think "ah yes, that style of work shall make a neat fit onto Licensed Superhero Title A".

[Charles RB]

They are a niche company

So are Marvel & DC, frankly - most of their titles are a single genre (superheroes). Tokyopop, on the other hand, has a niche but it's a larger one as they're offering multiple types of comic, are growing sales-wise, and are attracting more young'uns & new readers than Marvel & DC appear to.

I don't see how it doesn't count as mainstream when Marvel and DC do.

I still see kids explaining to other kids the difference between regular comics and the manga paperbacks.

And when I went on holiday to America in April, I saw a bookstore with a massive selection of Tokyopop manga and a much smaller selection of Marvel/DC trade paperbacks.

Sales-wise, you can't say Tokyopop isn't mainstream.

No. All I have is the collected stories of various creators who have had similar experiences when banging up against the big two.

Which is irrelevant, because you're still assuming the four webcomic creators who will recieve the grant have tried or want to try to get into Marvel/DC and were rebuffed, and there's no evidence for that at this point in time. The four creators haven't even been decided yet, they could be four women who aren't interested in working for Marvel or DC.

Odd. Part of the point of the United States is to make them precisely that.

You cannot be seriously telling me that a working-class white male from rural Texas is going to be exactly the same as a middle-class white male from Manhattan, or even another white guy from Texas who has a different economic position, political affiliation, job or area he lives in.

Did you read Pia's post? Apparently she doesn't "draw like a girl." And Earlier there was an allusion to Coleen Doran's work as being too "girly," too stylized for the main when she first came at it.

Which has nothing to do with their gender and everything to do with the comics & other artistic influences they had in their lives. Pia said she read X-Men and Teen Titans; I don't know what Coleen read, but I'm guessing it was something else entirely.

Yeah? So who's this guy, Frank Miller? Or that other guy, Rob Leifeld? Or Michael Oeming? Or that hack Jack Kirby? Please. "Draws like a girl" is code. Like "Only All-American Types Need Apply."

Joe Sacco has got a stylized art style and he's a white American male. Same with Chris Ware. Can you remember a Marvel or DC superhero comic they've ever been on? Their art is stylized in a way that doesn't fit for Marvel/DC superhero comics.

In the allusion to Coleen Doran's early art, it didn't say it was girlie. It said it was stylized in a way that wasn't didn't work for the books (presumably superhero ones) and that "a lot of women and men I know had issues with Colleen's art back in the day" (emphasis mine).

Several. To promote excellence in all social classes. Diversity. Opportunity to study with particular teachers for a gifted individual.

But the hypothetical middle-class black male already has the option to do all that based on the fact he can already afford to go the hypothetical school with high tuition fees. So how does giving him more money, as opposed to a poorer student, achieve all that? You give money to poorer students (which encompasses a lot of ethnic groups), then you're promoting excellence in all social classes, diversity, and opportunity to study with particular teachers because you're making that school an option for someone who could never afford it on their own.

You give the money to someone who could afford the school on his own, you're giving them beer money. Which is a good thing as far as the student is concerned, but I doubt that was the point.

No. All you need is a computer.

The webcomics with no talent? They don't last very long.

Learn from J-Bolt.

The guy who never made any comics?

[Red Jack]

Large numbers of girls & women are reading manga, and a sizeable amount are making their own. They are seemingly thriving.

I think I already adressed the rest of this in other posts so there's no need to rehash.

I will say that, though the web does provide many ways to bypass the old boy systems governing entertainment production, I would never make the msitake of a person laboring to produce work for which they are not paid as thriving.

Unless the simple expression of the work is the goal. In that case one is just a hobbyist, regardless of skill level. I'm only talking about those who hope to make their living at this.

The ratio of females to males outside the big two is slightly more favorable to women than inside. But not nearly as favorable as you're implying. There is a culture at work here which, like it or not, has been largely defined by the practices of the only two comics companies that are older than my Dad. And, of course, the society as a whole. Indeed, we can deduce that the REASON there are other commpanies now is because the Big Two weren't covering their bases on a host of fronts.

I can't speak to the European or Asian comics industries. I'm only talking about homegrown stuff and apparent hiring practices. Everything you say implies a level feild, rife with opportunity for those with the stones to muddle through (testes and ovaries both constitute stones in this context). My life experience and those of an assload of others says the feild isn't anywhere near a flat plane.

Better than twenty years ago? Sure. Time for a quick rest before pushing on? Nope. Not hardly.

[Gail Simone]

See, that's what we need to attract more kids to comics - violence! Beatdowns and ear-bitings for all!

I know you're teasing, but you know what?

GOOD.

I am sick and tired of even hearing the implication that girls and women all want (or should want) the same kinds of comics.

I find that elf shit as boring as hell most often (with a couple noteable exceptions). And if some women actually want, say, Lady Death, which is not and never will be my kind of book...who CARES? Good for them! They're getting what they want from the comics they choose, which, hey, I'm DE-LIGHTED.

I'm sorry that this frustrates people (and by the way, this isn't in reference to Lea at ALL, but to an increasingly shrill and annoying and clueless group of people who are all certain they alone know what comics we all SHOULD be making), but for the life of me, I can't see how wanting us all to conform to their often joyless idea of comics is a good thing for anyone.

Some Vertigo books more me to tears. I'm not a huge Image fan, for the most part. Whatever enjoyment I used to get from Archie comics is long gone. But if these books scratch an itch for a group of femaleses, good for it, I say.

That said...I probably wouldn't give Villains United to an EIGHT year old, Ian, you crazy freak. ;-)

Gail

[Gail Simone]

"Please describe for the class the number of women working in writing or editorial positions at the Big Two? Contrast that with the number of men. How many of the men are non-white?"

I have to say, Red Jack, at DC in particular, there are a metric TON of females in editorial positions. I've worked with a lot of them myself.

Gail

[Typo Lad]

Gail, that's a damn good way of putting something I've been thinking of for a while: saying "there are comics out there for girls" can be a trap wherin we put female creators in a ghetto saying "You're a girl. You can only read/write/draw this sort of comic".

[Red Jack]

"Please describe for the class the number of women working in writing or editorial positions at the Big Two? Contrast that with the number of men. How many of the men are non-white?"

I have to say, Red Jack, at DC in particular, there are a metric TON of females in editorial positions. I've worked with a lot of them myself.

Gail

Wow. Excellent. Ratio to men? Senior or junior? And, I'm not clear how this doesn't then translate into more women writing the comics themselves.

[Sabrinaset]

Look, I just wish Lea's program could be expanded to several other venues...like, oh, say, medicine. I mean, I just got my MD after working my butt off, taking weekend and night classes during high school, and giving up what few strands of my personal life could exist, in short, I worked twice as hard as the guys and I *still* get referred to as a nurse sometimes... and that's with the degree I have; only neurologists have it harder than cardiologists do. It kinda hurts, sometimes.

I mean, there's more femaleses doctors now than there are femaleses in comics, but it's STILL a man's world there, and a lot of males don't seem to understand that not only do we need something like what Lea has, but also a support network to go along with it if we're gunna break into the business big time...which a lot want to. If I had any talent at all, I would jump at the chance that Lea is offering.

See, I think I've PM-ed Gail this, how I respect her because she did manage to get into a male-dominated field ... and this was without any kind of whatever you wanna call it program, affirmative action, a Lea thing, or what have you. I dunno, maybe you haveta actually be a femaleses to understand what I'm getting at.

Gail's right about something else too. Lady Death...I read three issues of it and couldn't get past the size of her boobs. That comic is clearly not being written with women in mind, unless you consider that writing women as a life support system for their breasts is what you want...which I'm sure most guys DO, but still... If I wanna see drawings of women as objects, I'll look at what my lil bratty brother is drawing.

[Gail Simone]

Gail, that's a damn good way of putting something I've been thinking of for a while: saying "there are comics out there for girls" can be a trap wherin we put female creators in a ghetto saying "You're a girl. You can only read/write/draw this sort of comic".

My daughter's bed time ritual is comic reading. She likes superhero comics. Period.

According to an increasingly loud group of people, your daughter doesn't exist.

Gail

[Typo Lad]

Some nights when she's crawled into our bed at 2am and sleeps sideways with her feet digging into my spine, I kind of wish the loud people were right.

I'm a terrible person.

That said, we tend to eschew modern comics. She likes Black Canary* from JLU, but BoP is a bit too adult for her as she's five.

*(She calls Dinah "the shouty lady")

[Red Jack]

. Lady Death...I read three issues of it and couldn't get past the size of her boobs.

You're not supposed to. Hence her success.

LOOK into the boobs. You're getting sleeepy. Soooo sleepy...

re: Typo Lad

The Shouty Lady rules.

[Typo Lad]

Shouty Lady is okay, but Hawkgirl's the BEST! Why?

Because she has a hitty thing that she uses to hit the bad guys.

Wonder Woman gets points for being a Princess though.

And the Supergirl toy came with a "purse of doom!"

[Gail Simone]

Look, I just wish Lea's program could be expanded to several other venues...like, oh, say, medicine. I mean, I just got my MD after working my butt off, taking weekend and night classes during high school, and giving up what few strands of my personal life could exist, in short, I worked twice as hard as the guys and I *still* get referred to as a nurse sometimes... and that's with the degree I have; only neurologists have it harder than cardiologists do. It kinda hurts, sometimes.

I mean, there's more femaleses doctors now than there are femaleses in comics, but it's STILL a man's world there, and a lot of males don't seem to understand that not only do we need something like what Lea has, but also a support network to go along with it if we're gunna break into the business big time...which a lot want to. If I had any talent at all, I would jump at the chance that Lea is offering.

See, I think I've PM-ed Gail this, how I respect her because she did manage to get into a male-dominated field ... and this was without any kind of whatever you wanna call it program, affirmative action, a Lea thing, or what have you. I dunno, maybe you haveta actually be a femaleses to understand what I'm getting at.

Gail's right about something else too. Lady Death...I read three issues of it and couldn't get past the size of her boobs. That comic is clearly not being written with women in mind, unless you consider that writing women as a life support system for their breasts is what you want...which I'm sure most guys DO, but still... If I wanna see drawings of women as objects, I'll look at what my lil bratty brother is drawing.


And yet, ask at most comics stores and I will guarantee you nine times out of ten they say Lady Death is one of their highest female-selling comics. I can't tell you how many times I've heard it.

I don't get it either, but I don't NEED to get it. It's not even ABOUT me.

And I did SORTA have the Lea scholarship, she asked me to write my first OGN and co-created it with me and DREW the damn thing! Now that's a SCHOLARSHIP!

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Some nights when she's crawled into our bed at 2am and sleeps sideways with her feet digging into my spine, I kind of wish the loud people were right.

I'm a terrible person.

That said, we tend to eschew modern comics. She likes Black Canary* from JLU, but BoP is a bit too adult for her as she's five.

*(She calls Dinah "the shouty lady")

It's a good thing the CN DC books are such a high quality, and are so easily accessible. Yay for Joan Hilty for putting out such great books for so long!

Gail

[Red Jack]

And the Supergirl toy came with a "purse of doom!"

Shut up. No, it didn't.

Really? That's both terrifying and hysterical.

[stealthwise]

I like this thread. Ell Aich and Ian/Pia and Red Bee and Charles RB have made some pretty good points for each side, providing evidence for their claims. That's what I was looking for when I asked my initial question.

[Karen El]

I don't want to draw manga.

I want to draw Supergirl.

[Pia Guerra]

"Why is it that there are so many more women writers of novels than comics? Lack of female interest?"

Back to those comics girls used to read because those were the books girls were supposed to read. Richie Rich, Archie etc. were specifically written for little children. The stories were cute and accessible but most of all, static. Characters didn't evolve, their relationships were not complex by any stretch and the emotional stakes were virtually nill. It's okay for the short term but little kids grow up and those stories don't hold interest for long. So then what is there left to read? If girls are told they shouldn't like boys comics then the only avenue is the novel. Girls then go on to have a love for novels with all the things those kids comics didn't have: excitement. And where there's excitement there's inspiration hence the reason there are so many women writers of novels.

Now look over at those superhero comics. Evolution, emotion, excitement, inspiration. Kids could grow with their favourite characters and keep reading them into adulthood, some of those readers would be inspired enough to go into the business of creating stories just like the ones that got their blood rushing when they were ten years old.

Now if the more exciting comic stories were the territory of only boys, is it any wonder more women didn't choose to go into the business? They are writing but in the venue that inspired them, novels not comics.

"Why do so many seem to leap to American manga as the best place for the ladies to thrive?"

For the same reasons stated. Manga is so powerful because the stories are interesting and exciting without the stigma of "a boy's super hero comic". The genres are more wide ranging so it's a sure bet women will find something fun in there.

My main point here is that yes, there's a gap but before you go blaming the men for all these problems maybe you should examine what's actually going on here.

[Typo Lad]

Shut up. No, it didn't.

Really? That's both terrifying and hysterical.
She comes with a purse. A "lead" purse. Typo tit gt excited when she saw it and sad "Daddy! she comes with a purse...of DOOM!"

Of course we had to buy it.

[Ian Boothby]

That said...I probably wouldn't give Villains United to an EIGHT year old, Ian, you crazy freak. ;-)

Gail


These are girls who are huge fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's the measuring stick their dad uses, is this more intense than something they'd see on Buffy. And Villains isn't.
They also both love Harry Potter and that's got torture and death in it.
Heck, so do most fairy tales if they're not edited.

The 12 year old is a huge Y The Last Man fan and that book is rated mature. But her parents have talked with her about the language and context for it. She doesn't bring that book to school. But yes, Villains is a HUGE hit in the schoolyard and so is Jonah Hex. Kids at her school (especially girls) love Jonah Hex.

[Lester C.]

Would you guys be up in arms in Christopher Priest made a similar offer to black people? That how I view this issue. A woman creator, from experience, knows that women are behind the eight ball in the comics industry and is trying to change that by giving her own personal time and money to her cause. I don't see what's wrong with that.

[Ian Boothby]

Would you guys be up in arms in Christopher Priest made a similar offer to black people? That how I view this issue. A woman creator, from experience, knows that women are behind the eight ball in the comics industry and is trying to change that by giving her own personal time and money to her cause. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Who's up in arms?
Maybe my computer is deleting the posts where people are angry. But I'm reading a lot of "calm downs" and "let's all ease up here" and no one is getting angry. There's a debate but it seems for the most part respectful and it's a point worth talking about. I'm for the grants.

The only steam coming out of the kettle is over at Lea's board where she talks about the stupidity over here on this one. I assume that means me since I was the only person debating her.
Aside from that, I don't see the dynamite here that's about to blow. Maybe I am stupid.

[Red Jack]

"Why is it that there are so many more women writers of novels than comics? Lack of female interest?"

Back to those comics girls used to read because those were the books girls were supposed to read. Richie Rich, Archie etc. were specifically written for little children. The stories were cute and accessible but most of all, static. Characters didn't evolve, their relationships were not complex by any stretch and the emotional stakes were virtually nill. It's okay for the short term but little kids grow up and those stories don't hold interest for long. So then what is there left to read? If girls are told they shouldn't like boys comics then the only avenue is the novel. Girls then go on to have a love for novels with all the things those kids comics didn't have: excitement. And where there's excitement there's inspiration hence the reason there are so many women writers of novels.

Now look over at those superhero comics. Evolution, emotion, excitement, inspiration. Kids could grow with their favourite characters and keep reading them into adulthood, some of those readers would be inspired enough to go into the business of creating stories just like the ones that got their blood rushing when they were ten years old.

Now if the more exciting comic stories were the territory of only boys, is it any wonder more women didn't choose to go into the business? They are writing but in the venue that inspired them, novels not comics.

"Why do so many seem to leap to American manga as the best place for the ladies to thrive?"

For the same reasons stated. Manga is so powerful because the stories are interesting and exciting without the stigma of "a boy's super hero comic". The genres are more wide ranging so it's a sure bet women will find something fun in there.

My main point here is that yes, there's a gap but before you go blaming the men for all these problems maybe you should examine what's actually going on here.

That hypothesis only works if you select out certain social realities which have been outlined here and accept certain assertions about the reading habits of young people.

I AM a man. I'm not talking out of school when I describe how we often function when it comes to the chicas. If Adam Hughes was applying his considerable talents to drawing dinosaurs or ocean liners, I doubt I'd know his name. We built whole societies based on keeping you guys in heels and pushups. (not that there's anything wrong with this, as long as we're time, location and consent appropriate).

I've never asserted, and haven't seen anyone else assert that this is strictly a fucntion of "bad mean men" vs "sweet defenseless girly-girls."

Here is what I said:

There is no parity of opportunity for non-white males or non-males. Some of this is due to the handshake-networking aspect of comics (all entertainment really), some is due to insitutional resistance to The New and some is due to ethnic/gender bias. Those few members of the various Out groups that manage to make it over the fence have done so by a combination of hard work, skill and good luck.

I still haven't read anything that refutes that paradigm.

[Gail Simone]

I don't want to draw manga.

I want to draw Supergirl.


Good for you! :)

Be prepared to take some shit for it, though!

Gail

[Ian Boothby]

I still haven't read anything that refutes that paradigm.

We use phrases like "refutes the paradigm" in debates.
This is a smart board.
Now let's all go do the NY Times Crossword in pen and meet back here in a half hour.

[Lester C.]

Who's up in arms?
Maybe my computer is deleting the posts where people are angry. But I'm reading a lot of "calm downs" and "let's all ease up here" and no one is getting angry. There's a debate but it seems for the most part respectful and it's a point worth talking about. I'm for the grants.

The only steam coming out of the kettle is over at Lea's board where she talks about the stupidity over here on this one. I assume that means me since I was the only person debating her.
Aside from that, I don't see the dynamite here that's about to blow. Maybe I am stupid.
I should not have used the phrase up in arms and no one that's read your work is going to call you stupid.

[Ian Boothby]

I should not have used the phrase up in arms and no one that's read your work is going to call you stupid.

I did once put my laundry in the refrigerator. But I was very sleepy.

[ECMasters]

What an excellent idea! I myself am a female freelance artist, and am quite happy to hear about this for obvious reasons.

[Gail Simone]

Speaking to the artists on this thread...do you have your work up somewhere on the web?

Best,

Gail

[ECMasters]

Of course I meant the Grant is wonderful...not interested in such a complex debate about the sexes & comics at the moment. You could battle for months on that one.

[Typo Lad]

Speaking to the artists on this thread...do you have your work up somewhere on the web?

Best,

Gail
Yeah, and are any of you available?

For art, I mean.

[ECMasters]

Indeed:
http://www.ecmasters.artroof.com/

I also have stuff on Portfolios.com, cafepress and spreadshirt. My listings are under construction this week, but ART ROOF is still worth a look :)

[Ell Aich]

The only steam coming out of the kettle is over at Lea's board where she talks about the stupidity over here on this one. I assume that means me since I was the only person debating her.


Don't try to make it all about you, Ian. I was talking about Michael Pullman, Charles RB, the troll Mr (whatever), and your statements (not you). If you didn't read the whole thread up until where you came in, you'd have mnissed that in the very first page, Michael Pullman demonstrated an extremely typical behavior, which was to be nasty and make light, which was followed by a lot of trivializing silliness.

Some of the things said here do demonstrate a blindness to a very real problem. Prejudices so ingrained, they are virtually invisible. That is why I "quit" and moved on to places where I don't have to keep (incoming popcult ref) beat the hell out of someone to make them put on the They Live glasses(outgoing popcult ref).

I thank everyone who's supporting the grant.

Pia: I watched Speed Racer, Starblazer, Battle of the Planets. I read Watchman, Thriller, American Flagg, Swamp Thing, X-Men, Batman, Teen Titans and so on. The attraction in those books for me was to dynamic aspect of them, the soap opera, if you will. (And I read them, because I was in love with comics, and they were some of the few that didn't bore me to tears or offend me.) Artwise, it was the "cartoony" ones I loved: Speed Racer, Alan Davis, Michael Golden (squeal Golden's Jason Bard, his Ragman).
I got some Disney comics for car trips, and hated the stories, but loved the art.

I didn't read Richie Rich, Lulu, etc. My friends had them, I tried them, I hated them. I thought the jokes were dumb and a lot of the cartooning lifeless.

Conclusion: two women can get two very different art styles out of the same books. And two very different experiences out of the same business.

Anyone who really thinks I sit around and moan about how someone else, anyone else, got "my" job(s) doesn't know a gorram thing about me. As far as I know, I "lost" exactly one job, I have never discussed it anywhere with anyone except in private, and I was better off without it.

[Ell Aich]

Indeed:
http://www.ecmasters.artroof.com/

I also have stuff on Portfolios.com, cafepress and spreadshirt. My listings are under construction this week, but ART ROOF is still worth a look :)

GORGEOUS STUFF, E.C. (What awesome initials for someone in comics.) I hope you are sending your around. Good luck!

And thanks to Gail for the reminder of what this is all about: if women reading this want to apply for a grant, please do!
As for KP being a grant: pshaw. Gail, you were already on your way before KP. Deadpool? Agent X? Funny? C'mon!

[Ian Boothby]

Don't try to make it all about you, Ian. I was talking about Michael Pullman, Charles RB, the troll Mr (whatever), and your statements (not you). If you didn't read the whole thread up until where you came in, you'd have mnissed that in the very first page, Michael Pullman demonstrated an extremely typical behavior, which was to be nasty and make light, which was followed by a lot of trivializing silliness.

Some of the things said here do demonstrate a blindness to a very real problem. Prejudices so ingrained, they are virtually invisible. That is why I "quit" and moved on to places where I don't have to keep (incoming popcult ref) beat the hell out of someone to make them put on the They Live glasses(outgoing popcult ref).
.

Good reference, a bit of a hard film to watch. I have bad memories because when I worked in a video store I had to do the cash out at the end of the night and there was a big They Live poster by the table I did it at. Someone in the store was stealing and I always got heat for the cash not balancing so I came to hate that poster.

I do agree there's stealth prejudice. I'm glad you're fighting it your way, I'll do my best to fight it in mine.

[Sabrinaset]

Speaking to the artists on this thread...do you have your work up somewhere on the web?

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.

[Charles RB]

I know you're teasing

Hell no, my fave comic when I was younger was Sonic The Comic and that had an issue where it appeared Sonic had gone mad and killed all his friends, and then I discovered the existence of 1970s girls horror comic Misty, which had a 3-page story once where an old lady's annoying yappy dog deliberately murders her grand-daughter so she only has the dog to care about in her life.

Hell, Pat Mills, creator of 2000AD and other influential Brit comics (in an article I can't find atm), once said the trick to writing the girl's comics was hard-edged grit and meanness. Your gender are vicious little sods.

[matterconsumer]

Chop, chop Bree! I think you've captured your impression of your work well.

EC your lines are swell!

Glad to hear the tone has taken a better tune!

[heystacy]

I have a friend who would be interested. I will send her the info. Thanks for posting. :)

[Charles RB]

Shouty Lady is okay, but Hawkgirl's the BEST! Why?

Because she has a hitty thing that she uses to hit the bad guys.

I always thought Hawkgirl was rather naff, but Typo Tot makes a very well-reasoned and persuasive argument.

These are girls who are huge fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

God, even latter-half Season 7?! The fools!

[sk716]

While Lea's grant my be something of a new beast to the comics industry it's been around for a long time in the film industry.
There are several grants for female filmmakers, the one that springs to mind is from the Women in Film Foundation (http://www.wif.org/), although I know there are many more. I had to do some research a couple of years back for an Indie Film Organization I was part of.

Grants specifically intended for women are pretty common in most fields that have grants. Look around at grants for college and starting businesses, for instance.

The thing is, it strikes me as kind of strange that a grant for women is an oddity to the comics industry.

I applaud Lea for putting her money where her mouth is.

[stealthwise]

Kind of a quick question:

What happens if the winner of this grant were to produce highly sexist, racist, and/or otherwise controversial issues within that work? That's part of a conflict that I might foresee when handing out grants for art in general, though the issue's importance seems to be amplified when you're handing out money for people who fit a specific criteria. If a woman who receives the award produces work that goes against the virtues of equality (I'm thinking something along the lines of the women of Sin City or Lady Death, or worse, like the later volumes of Cerebus), and reads like drivel, I'm wondering what the effects might be. Because it seems likely that the winner would have their work under the microscope, and be scrutinized as the first winner of a "Grant for Femaleses."

[Crowley]

i feel at this moment i should mention I'm not wearing pants.




again.

[Cam63]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.

Not bad, Doc ! Very nice, 'matter of fact !

...and welcome to EC. :)

[Cam63]

i feel at this moment i should mention I'm not wearing pants.




again.

You should stay away from crap games when you've been drinking.

[Gail Simone]

GORGEOUS STUFF, E.C. (What awesome initials for someone in comics.) I hope you are sending your around. Good luck!

And thanks to Gail for the reminder of what this is all about: if women reading this want to apply for a grant, please do!
As for KP being a grant: pshaw. Gail, you were already on your way before KP. Deadpool? Agent X? Funny? C'mon!


Am I misremembering? I think the Bongo and KP things happened at the same time, but Deadpool came slightly later.

I'm just saying that I did benefit from your generosity.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.

I actually think that's darn cute. If you've seen my world famous stick figures, you know how crap my own art is.

Gail

[Red Jack]

I'm good but not good enough for mainstream comics. That's why I'm WRITING the ones I'm doing.

Here's something I did for fun.

http://static.flickr.com/19/163399920_fa26d1551d.jpg

[Gail Simone]

What an excellent idea! I myself am a female freelance artist, and am quite happy to hear about this for obvious reasons.

EC!

Your stuff is very powerful! I love the color choices!

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I'm good but not good enough for mainstream comics. That's why I'm WRITING the ones I'm doing.

Here's something I did for fun.

http://static.flickr.com/19/163399920_fa26d1551d.jpg

DAMMIT!

I hate people with talent!

Gail

[matterconsumer]

Wiki says that you did Deadpool after the Simpsons.

It also doesn't mention that you did Killer Princesses at all! Though it's mentioned on Lea's wiki entry.

And that's not all that's wrong...

[Charles RB]

What happens if the winner of this grant were to produce highly sexist, racist, and/or otherwise controversial issues within that work?

The grant is given to people already making webcomics regularly; if they were going to make racist or sexist work, it'd be noticable based on the work they'd already done surely?

[Lester C.]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.
As an artist... you make a damn fine artist. Don't sell your work short.

[Gail Simone]

Wiki says that you did Deadpool after the Simpsons.

It also doesn't mention that you did Killer Princesses at all! Though it's mentioned on Lea's wiki entry.

And that's not all that's wrong...

That wiki thing is well-intentioned, but sort of a pain in the ass. Devin Grayson's was HORRIBLE. I did some editing on that one myself, cause I couldn't stand it.

Gail

[Karen El]

Speaking to the artists on this thread...do you have your work up somewhere on the web?


My webcomic is Planet Karen (http://planet-karen.blogspot.com/).

[Red Jack]

Indeed:
http://www.ecmasters.artroof.com/

I also have stuff on Portfolios.com, cafepress and spreadshirt. My listings are under construction this week, but ART ROOF is still worth a look :)

Nice work, EC. Tasty.

Planet Karen is funny. Nice work too.

And I like that Canary. What's not to like?

[sk716]

Wiki says that you did Deadpool after the Simpsons.

It also doesn't mention that you did Killer Princesses at all! Though it's mentioned on Lea's wiki entry.

And that's not all that's wrong...

You know, I guess it's a good thing I started work on a Chronological listing for the Index....

Simpsons Comics #50
August 23, 2000

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #002
November 2000 Cover Date (? Conflicting Dates)

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #003
February 2001 Cover Date(? Conflicting Dates)

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #004
May 31, 2001

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #005
August 29, 2001

Simpsons Comics #62
September 19, 2001

Simpsons Comics #64
November 21, 2001

Killer Princesses #1
December 12, 2001

Simpsons Comics #65
December 19, 2001

Simpsons Comics #66
January 16, 2002

Simpsons Comics #67
February 20, 2002

Deadpool #65
March 27, 2002

Deadpool #66
April 24, 2002

Deadpool #67
May 22, 2002

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #008
May 30, 2002

Deadpool #68
June 26, 2002

Killer Princesses #2
July 3, 2002

Deadpool #69
July 10, 2002

Simpsons Comics #72
July 17, 2002

Agent X #01
August 7, 2002

Agent X #02
August 28, 2002

Simpsons Comics #74
September 18, 2002

Agent X #03
September 25, 2002

Bart Simpsons Treehouse of Horror #8
September 25, 2002

Agent X #04
October 30, 2002

Agent X #05
November 27, 2002

Simpsons Comics Presents: Bart Simpson #010
December 11, 2002

Agent X #06
December 27, 2002

Agent X #07
January 29, 2003

Killer Princesses #3
April 30, 2003

Agent X #13
August 20, 2003

Agent X #14
September 17, 2003

Agent X #15
October 15, 2003

Simpsons Comics #88
November 19, 2003


Maybe this will clear everything up.

[matterconsumer]

Don't feel bad SK, I get ignored all the time :)

I do think that it would be good to incorporate some of this into Gail's wiki.

[Cam63]

That wiki thing is well-intentioned, but sort of a pain in the ass. Devin Grayson's was HORRIBLE. I did some editing on that one myself, cause I couldn't stand it.

Gail

Yeah, you're right there.

Devin had nothing to do with the Lindburgh kidnapping.

However, she did drive for Bonnie and Clyde on a few bank jobs.

[Karen El]

The grant is given to people already making webcomics regularly; if they were going to make racist or sexist work, it'd be noticable based on the work they'd already done surely?

That's not entirely accurate. If you look at the guidelines, it states:

6. The NAN Grant is open to ALL female webcomickers, regardless of experience. This includes young, brand-new comickers, older brand-new comickers, experienced comickers now paying a success tax for bandwidth use, professionals from other fields. You have to either already be making a comic that needs hosting, or want to host a new one.


So it could be a completely new strip by a new artist, although you are required to include samples and prove basic skills.

But even proven experience does not mean that someone might not take it into their head to move their storytelling in a direction that others might consider inappropriate. Even Cerebus had strong female characters once.

But then there's no guarantee that the person might not stop drawing their comic after three months, either. The decision can only be based on what information is available at the time.

It's like when you take a driving test - It can only verify that you were competent to drive on the day you took the test.

[Cam63]

You know, I guess it's a good thing I started work on a Chronological listing for the Index....

Has anyone told you that you do mighty fine work ?

[TCJohnson]

Yeah, you're right there.

Devin had nothing to do with the Lindburgh kidnapping.



Do you have proof of this?

[Cam63]

Reports have it she was doing a stint with the Marines in Cuba at the time.

[TCJohnson]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.


Yeah, yeah show off.

[Magneto_X]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.


That's actually quite good.

I'm an okay artist (primarily drawing funny animal comics [nothing online or printed yet]) but I've always found humans the hardest thing to draw.

You shouldn't be down on your art, IMHO. Remember not every (web) comic needs to be drawn like Bryan Hitch to be "good".

[matterconsumer]

Thanks for inviting us over to your planet, Karen :)

[sk716]

Don't feel bad SK, I get ignored all the time :)

I do think that it would be good to incorporate some of this into Gail's wiki.

For some reason, I can't seem to work out Wiki. Weird, I know, I speak HTML fluently, my PHP is passable, and I've got a good grasp of JavaScript, but Wiki just baffles me...

Add all you want, Wiki is a weird, weird, world to me.

[sk716]

Here, Gail. I just did this, took me a minute. I just sketched it out. Now, you'll have something ELSE to laugh at me about!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/BlackCanarySketch001.jpg

Just remember ... as an artist, I make a very good surgeon.


Are those crumbs?

[Karen El]

Thanks for inviting us over to your planet, Karen :)

You are most welcome. Just try to keep your feet off the furniture and watch out for the bats.

[Gail Simone]

You are most welcome. Just try to keep your feet off the furniture and watch out for the bats.


Jeez, I LOVE your stuff, Karen! It's really sharp and clever!

Thanks for sharin'!

Gail

[Sabrinaset]

Thanks for the kind words, everyone! :)

[Karen El]

Jeez, I LOVE your stuff, Karen! It's really sharp and clever!

Thanks for sharin'!


Aw I'ma get a swelled head. :D

Can I quote you on that?

[TCJohnson]

Actually, you may want to go see the doctor about that swelled head. It ain't pride...Gail is contagious.

[Red Jack]

You are most welcome. Just try to keep your feet off the furniture and watch out for the bats.


Do you mind if I add your link to my blog?

[Karen El]

Do you mind if I add your link to my blog?

I always like it when people link to me, though I prefer it if they tell me. I mean, how else will I know to appreciate it?

[Gail Simone]

Aw I'ma get a swelled head. :D

Can I quote you on that?

Sure, or I could give ya an actual blurb. Would be happy to, this is fun stuff!

Gail

[Typo Lad]

Sabrina -

You draw better than I do, that's for fracking sure.

[Cam63]

Aw I'ma get a swelled head. :D

Can I quote you on that?

Welcome to the board, Swellhead ! :)

[Cam63]

Are those crumbs?

Looks like boobies to these tired eyes.

[Karen El]

Sure, or I could give ya an actual blurb. Would be happy to, this is fun stuff!

That would be fantastic.

If you did that I wouldn't be able to stop smiling all day. People would see me coming and go "Who is that weird girl and why is she grinning like that?"

But I feel like I'm highjacking this thread, so can we get back to how excellent Lea's NAN grant is?

[Ell Aich]

That would be fantastic.

If you did that I wouldn't be able to stop smiling all day. People would see me coming and go "Who is that weird girl and why is she grinning like that?"

But I feel like I'm highjacking this thread, so can we get back to how excellent Lea's NAN grant is?

Heee heee. Karen says, "Let's talk about the grant!" and y'all turn into crickets!

Bree: Your Canary drawing was most excellent. I am totally impressed you get through med school. Dadgum.

[Typo Lad]

We fear discussing womyn.

Seriously thought, beyond "awesome, I have to tell person X about this" and wow, Leah rocks" what is there to say?

Aside from people griping about why they don't like the idea even though it doens't affect them oh, and the people taking cheap shots at the person making said grant.

[Gail Simone]

I hope the grants are used as intended, and it puts the proper spotlight on some huge talent.

Gail

[stealthwise]

I hope the grants are used as intended, and it puts the proper spotlight on some huge talent.

Gail

That's something we can all agree on, I would hope.

[Red Jack]

That would be fantastic.

If you did that I wouldn't be able to stop smiling all day. People would see me coming and go "Who is that weird girl and why is she grinning like that?"

But I feel like I'm highjacking this thread, so can we get back to how excellent Lea's NAN grant is?


RE: Lea's grant:

"EXCELLENT!"
-Red Jack, noted 'net lunatic -

[Gail Simone]

Bumping this because it is still a good idea, and we have a couple people here who would be great candidates to take advantage of it.

Gail

[Karen El]

Bumping this because it is still a good idea, and we have a couple people here who would be great candidates to take advantage of it.

Gail

I consider it the duty of every person of gender with a comic in them to apply for the grant. Let's all do our best to break Lea's email box!

Don't assume you can't do it. Don't assume you aren't good enough. That's for Lea to decide. Who are you to be taking Lea's job away from her? Now go get comicking before I smack ya!

[TomStillwell]

Good luck, Karen! I really enjoy your stuff.

And good luck to anyone getting involved!!!

[heystacy]

Bumping this because it is still a good idea, and we have a couple people here who would be great candidates to take advantage of it.

Gail


I sent a link to this thread to my friend Cari, who does her own web comic. She in turn posted a link to this thread on her webpage to share with other people. i hope you don't mind Gail.

[Karen El]

Oops. I tripped over and bumped the thread.

[Sabrinaset]

Sometimes us femaleses can be clumsy.

[stealthwise]

Oops. I tripped over and bumped the thread.

I like your webcomic, it's funny.

[sk716]

Oops. I tripped over and bumped the thread.

Okay, I went and read all of your strips. Are you happy now?






I liked it.

[matterconsumer]

Sometimes us femaleses can be clumsy.

Just don't share that with your patients :)

[WhiteRose]

I am intrigued...though highly doubtful of my own work. I am truly my own worst critic.

I may still send something in and see. A few months to go yet, so that's good.

[Karen El]

Okay, I went and read all of your strips. Are you happy now?


YES!!!

I am hap-hap-happy!!! Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!

[Karen El]

I am intrigued...though highly doubtful of my own work. I am truly my own worst critic.

That's only because you aren't giving anyone else a fair chance.

Post some crap and you'll soon get some competition there.

It works for me.

I may still send something in and see. A few months to go yet, so that's good.

No!

DO IT NOW!!

Lea needs her email box broke by femcomickers! Don't believe the propoganda - Tomorrow is NOT another day!

[Sabrinaset]

YES!!!

I am hap-hap-happy!!! Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!

She wasn't this happy when *I* read her strips.

Oh...well, I guess I didn't tell her either ... sigh...

[Karen El]

She wasn't this happy when *I* read her strips.

Oh...well, I guess I didn't tell her either ... sigh...

I was. I just wasn't being so hyper that day.

[Sabrinaset]

I just noticed that I could actually have a real artist draw stuff for me there too. I could have people draw... uhm ...

...geez, the obly thing I can think of right now is the Super-Adaptoid or myself ... I guess I'm a lot duller than I thought I was!

[Sabrinaset]

Hmm. I gotta idea. (For once) I'll draw Karen El!

There's someone in her comics who looks like me but now I can't remember her name...Oh well :)

[Gail Simone]

I was. I just wasn't being so hyper that day.


You are so HIGH.

Gail

[Sabrinaset]

Okay. Here we go. Karen El by Bree!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/Ksketch.jpg

[Karen El]

*falls off her chair CLUNK*

If only I was that thin. :evilsmile

So why are you not doing more drawingses? Did you not see what I said about breaking Lea's email box?

[Sabrinaset]

Oh, I don't have the time to draw. Gotta put in those 30-hour days as a cardiac surgeon in her residency soon!

I ... if things had worked out differently for me, I probably would have been an art major. But as it is now, it's just a hobby which brings a smile to the kids in the cancer and burn wards.

But, I'm jealous of you and Lea. People who can draw and are famous at it. Gail too, wish I was creative like her. But I know my limitations. I can make pretty lil pictures, but when it comes to telling a story using sequential art, I'm not anywhere near you.

Uhm...you DID like it though, right? Even if I made you too skinny? I looked at your drawingses (hehe) and did my version of you. And I was gunna e-mail you, but it was disabled here. You can PM me it if ya wanna. I have the art also if you want me to mail it to ya.

[Karen El]

Oh, I don't have the time to draw. Gotta put in those 30-hour days as a cardiac surgeon in her residency soon!

I ... if things had worked out differently for me, I probably would have been an art major. But as it is now, it's just a hobby which brings a smile to the kids in the cancer and burn wards.

But, I'm jealous of you and Lea. People who can draw and are famous at it. Gail too, wish I was creative like her. But I know my limitations. I can make pretty lil pictures, but when it comes to telling a story using sequential art, I'm not anywhere near you.

If it's any consolation, you have money and (I'm assuming) a certain amount of job security. I'm currently living on less than most people I know spend on bus fare, and even when I do get paid work I don't know how long it's going to last for or how long it will be before I get any after that.

I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I'm here by choice. I just wanted you to know that it's always a trade-off.

Uhm...you DID like it though, right? Even if I made you too skinny?

Oh, don't you just hate it when people think you are thinner than you are?:p

I looked at your drawingses (hehe) and did my version of you. And I was gunna e-mail you, but it was disabled here. You can PM me it if ya wanna. I have the art also if you want me to mail it to ya.

PMed you too.

[sk716]

Oh, I don't have the time to draw. Gotta put in those 30-hour days as a cardiac surgeon in her residency soon!



Even with your schedule, you could probably get out a strip more regularly that CFT & Mac get out The Fourth Wall (http://www.monkeyspit.net/4thwall/).



Yes, I am going to keep on about it until a new strip is out.

[Sabrinaset]

If it's any consolation, you have money and (I'm assuming) a certain amount of job security. I'm currently living on less than most people I know spend on bus fare, and even when I do get paid work I don't know how long it's going to last for or how long it will be before I get any after that. I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I'm here by choice. I just wanted you to know that it's always a trade-off.

Oh, don't you just hate it when people think you are thinner than you are?:p

PMed you too.

1) Hehe, won't have any real money til I've paid off my loans. You think you're broke, try being in debt so deeply, it'll be over fifteen years before it's paid off ... ON A SURGEONS SALARY!!! Ow!

You know, that was actually the question I was gunna ask you...if you really were that broke in real life as you are in the comics.

2) Uh oh ... I'm still tying to gain weight back from after med school finals. I look like you could slide me under a door! I'm actually eating meat to gain weight!

3) ...and PM-ed you back!

[Typo Lad]

Jim's too busy drawing character designs for our web comic!

[sk716]

Jim's too busy drawing character designs for our web comic!

I blame CFT. Mac is always right on top of things. It's CFT who's the big ol' procrastinator!

[Jimbo]

I am intrigued...though highly doubtful of my own work. I am truly my own worst critic.

I may still send something in and see. A few months to go yet, so that's good.

Everyone is doubtful of their work! It's that damned voice in the back of your head shouting what a hack you are! Give the voice it's due. Write down whatever it says on an extra piece of paper and keep writing/drawing. Eventually, the voice runs out of stuff to say.

[Jimbo]

Oh, I don't have the time to draw. Gotta put in those 30-hour days as a cardiac surgeon in her residency soon!

Aw, c'mon! Keep a little book with you. Something that fits in the pocket. and a pencil. I once laid out thumbnails of four strips while I waited on a doctor to come to an appointment. You know you have to wait around for the head of the hospital or head surgeon once-in-a-while. Maybe we can't all do the (Holy Christ!) 7-days-a-week strips like our girl Karen can, but you can do one strip a week. Heck in a year, you get 50 strips (with skipping two weeks). After a while, all that stuff addes up and you'll have something to show for it.

[Allan Harvey]

I hope the grants are used as intended, and it puts the proper spotlight on some huge talent.

Gail

Absolutely! There is so much great talent out there that deserves to be encouraged.

Now, I'm not going to do anything yet as I don't want to step on Lea's toes, but if Karen doesn't win one of the grants I'll put up the money for a year's subscription to Webcomicsnation myself. That's a promise.

I hope that doesn't sound creepy. I don't know Karen personally, but her work is extraordinary and I'm more than happy to put my money where my mouth is.

[Karen El]

Absolutely! There is so much great talent out there that deserves to be encouraged.

Now, I'm not going to do anything yet as I don't want to step on Lea's toes, but if Karen doesn't win one of the grants I'll put up the money for a year's subscription to Webcomicsnation myself. That's a promise.

I hope that doesn't sound creepy. I don't know Karen personally, but her work is extraordinary and I'm more than happy to put my money where my mouth is.

Wow, that's quite a compliment.

But in fact I am seriously considering withdrawing my application for the grant Nan. I have been given a new home at girl-wonder.org (http://planetkaren.girl-wonder.org/), and with the help of the wonderful Jimbo (http://www.wire-heads.com/), code-wrangler to the stars, it shouldn't be long before that is up and running.

I'm a big supporter of girl-wonder and I am really excited about being part of it. I know there are other benefits to the grant, but the response I've received recently makes it clear that I will succeed with or without the grant. It would be a nice boost but I don't *need* it.

Now I'm sure Lea would rule me out for exactly the same reason, so it saves time all around if I withdraw. I just can't bring myself to burn down that particular bridge until I am *sure* that everything is working at g-w. But I have the kerosene and the matches all ready.

[Gail Simone]

Wow, that's quite a compliment.

But in fact I am seriously considering withdrawing my application for the grant Nan. I have been given a new home at girl-wonder.org (http://planetkaren.girl-wonder.org/), and with the help of the wonderful Jimbo (http://www.wire-heads.com/), code-wrangler to the stars, it shouldn't be long before that is up and running.

I'm a big supporter of girl-wonder and I am really excited about being part of it. I know there are other benefits to the grant, but the response I've received recently makes it clear that I will succeed with or without the grant. It would be a nice boost but I don't *need* it.

Now I'm sure Lea would rule me out for exactly the same reason, so it saves time all around if I withdraw. I just can't bring myself to burn down that particular bridge until I am *sure* that everything is working at g-w. But I have the kerosene and the matches all ready.

I'm glad to see you at Girl Wonder. It's a great site, but I think there's some danger of a dirge-like atmosphere if they're not careful. A bit of your humor will make the site much more rounded.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be angry, just that more voices and approaches can only help.

Gail

[Red Jack]

Wow, that's quite a compliment.

But in fact I am seriously considering withdrawing my application for the grant Nan. I have been given a new home at girl-wonder.org (http://planetkaren.girl-wonder.org/), and with the help of the wonderful Jimbo (http://www.wire-heads.com/), code-wrangler to the stars, it shouldn't be long before that is up and running.

I'm a big supporter of girl-wonder and I am really excited about being part of it. I know there are other benefits to the grant, but the response I've received recently makes it clear that I will succeed with or without the grant. It would be a nice boost but I don't *need* it.

Now I'm sure Lea would rule me out for exactly the same reason, so it saves time all around if I withdraw. I just can't bring myself to burn down that particular bridge until I am *sure* that everything is working at g-w. But I have the kerosene and the matches all ready.

Wow.

An actual American. I'm impressed.

[Karen El]

Wow.

An actual American. I'm impressed.

Um, what?

I'm british. Only time I ever set foot on american territory was one time I visited the embassy in London.

I put "u" in colour. I can talk about smoking fags without it being seen as any kind of slur on another person's lifestyle. I get all the jokes in Shakespeare and identify with all the sophisticated villains in Hollywood movies. It's cool.

[Red Jack]

My definition of American si more expansive than most.

More like, say, Captain America's.

Anyone who adheres to selfless or honorable ideals, in my mind, counts as American whether they identifiy themselves that way or not. THose who don't, whether they are technically American or not, DON'T qualify.

It's corkscrew but it works for me.

Trust me. It's a compliment.

(And I get all the jokes in Shakespeare too. Spotty upbringing.)

[Ell Aich]

I've discussed the G-W hosting while being a Grant Nan applicant with Mary Borsellino, and neither of us have a problem with it.

G-W and a Webcomicsnation.com account do different things for a comic once you get beyond hosting, and there's no reason a comic can't run simultaneously on both sites.

I was glad to talk to Karen about this after she posted here.

Alan, you are too kind. It's good to see your stance in supporting women's comic work extends to such a lovely degree.

[Cam63]

Um, what?

I'm british. Only time I ever set foot on american territory was one time I visited the embassy in London.

I put "u" in colour. I can talk about smoking fags without it being seen as any kind of slur on another person's lifestyle. I get all the jokes in Shakespeare and identify with all the sophisticated villains in Hollywood movies. It's cool.

Good post.

[Allan Harvey]

I know there are other benefits to the grant, but the response I've received recently makes it clear that I will succeed with or without the grant. It would be a nice boost but I don't *need* it.

Now I'm sure Lea would rule me out for exactly the same reason, so it saves time all around if I withdraw.

I know what you're saying, but, as I understand it, even professionals like Gale, Colleen Doran or Jill Thompson would be eligible for the grant if they chose to apply. There's no harm in leaving your name in the hat until September.

Good luck with the move to Girl Wonder -- and never forget that there actually IS a 'u' in colour, and it's 'pavement' not 'sidewalk'... ;)

[Allan Harvey]

Alan, you are too kind. It's good to see your stance in supporting women's comic work extends to such a lovely degree.

Ach, it's only money -- you can't take it with you, and all that...

I'm happy to support ALL good comics, the gender of the creator is not particularly important to me -- though, having said that, I find myself struggling to think of any male creators who have benefitted from my madness.

Your generous gesture in setting up the grant has certainly inspired me to seriously think about doing something similar.