New Avengers #20 -- Synopsis & HUGE Spoliers within

[Sharcque]

Ok, gonna try this again, since it's after midnight (sorry bout that, Brian). This time, I'll do it right, with a story synopsis as well.

Ok, the story starts off where last issue ended: with the Collective and the New Avengers on Genosha. We cut to Magneto writing some very bleak personal memoirs, pretty much feeling sorry for himself. His pen begins floating, and he's shocked to see it doing so. Then energy hits Mags, kinda like lightning. We then see the lightning is all over the entire island.

Cut to the SHIELD helicarrier, where the President is pretty much telling Hill to vaporize the island, but she refuses because the Avengers ar there.

The Avengers are shown next, with Tony saying that what they're seeing is a massive energy transference, but he doesn't know where the energy is going to. He tells everyone to be ready because he says he has a plan and they'll only have 1 shot at it.

We next see Magneto, and the Collective is addressing him, telling him that he is the only one capable of leading the mutant nation; that he is the only one capable of avenging mutantdom. He tells Mags, not to fight it, to accept the "gift". He then tells Mags how "we" (the Collective) tried to do it before, using Mags's name & face, but that it didn't work because it had to be HIM, Magneto, and only him, no fakes. He tells how the body he's inhabiting is just his vessel, a mutant that absorbs energy & essences, however, that mutant is fighting "them" every step of the way. Magneto asks who he is, and the Collective tells him he already knows and demands over & over bthat Magneto say "their name". Finally, Magneto screams out loud, "Xorn!!!", and when he does, he's all powered up again in his classic red attire.

The Avengers are rushing to where they see all the energy bursts, and they hear Magneto scream "Xorn!". Xorn then tells Magneto that he's gonna give him an army to "remind them of what they've done", at which point, all of the dead mutants that Cassandra killed dig themselves out of the ground and attack the Avengers.

Sentry then goes full speed into the Collective, which prompts Mags to blast both Sentry & the Collective. When the Collective hits the ground, there's a nude boy there who says his name is "Michael", but the energy part of the collective is all focused on and around Magneto. I'm not sure here, but I think it's trying to use Mags' body the way it did Michaels.

On the Helicarrier, the President orders Hill to nuke the island. She refuses saying that there is already a plan in motion.

SHIELD agents are on the ground, including Daisy Johson (the girl from Secret War). cap tells her to do to Mags' brain what she did to Wolverine's heart (in Secret War). She explains to those not in the know that she "started a pinpoint earthquake in Wolvie's chest which caused his heart to explode." She doesn't know if it'll kill Mags or not. Iron Man tells Carol to get into position and to get ready to absord whatever energy she can.

Sentry has engaged Mags, and Mags tells him to kill him and not let him be used like this, which causes Sentry to balk. Iron Man then tells Hill that he's gonna need lots of power from her (the Helicarrier) and she tells him to take what he needs.

Daisy then blasts Mags' brain, and the energy of the Collective goes everywhere. Ms Marvel absorbs what she can, but Iron Man captures the rest of it in a hard energy field and tells the Sentry to fly it into the sun. He does, and we ses a huge explosion, and the outline of a face screaming, then it disappears.

At this point it's pretty much over. Daisy tells the Avengers she wants her Avenger name to be "Quake". Cap tells her they don't wnat her. LOL! Iron Man explains to Michael that he is an energy absorbing mutant, which shocks him. He's sressing big time as memories of decimating Alpha Flight are coming to him. He leaves with SHIELD, and they say they'll teach him how to use his powers. Magneto is taken into SHIELD custody, but he seems to be in a coma. He's loaded on a helicopter and flown off, at which point it explodes. There's no signs of any survivors.

End

[Bobster777]

Ok, gonna try this again, since it's after midnight (sorry bout that, Brian). This time, I'll do it right, with a story synopsis as well.

Ok, the story starts off where last issue ended: with the Collective and the New Avengers on Genosha. We cut to Magneto writing some very bleak personal memoirs, pretty much feeling sorry for himself. His pen begins floating, and he's shocked to see it doing so. Then energy hits Mags, kinda like lightning. We then see the lightning is all over the entire island.

Cut to the SHIELD helicarrier, where the President is pretty much telling Hill to vaporize the island, but she refuses because the Avengers ar there.

The Avengers are shown next, with Tony saying that what they're seeing is a massive energy transference, but he doesn't know where the energy is going to. He tells everyone to be ready because he says he has a plan and they'll only have 1 shot at it.

We next see Magneto, and the Collective is addressing him, telling him that he is the only one capable of leading the mutant nation; that he is the only one capable of avenging mutantdom. He tells Mags, not to fight it, to accept the "gift". He then tells Mags how "we" (the Collective) tried to do it before, using Mags's name & face, but that it didn't work because it had to be HIM, Magneto, and only him, no fakes. He tells how the body he's inhabiting is just his vessel, a mutant that absorbs energy & essences, however, that mutant is fighting "them" every step of the way. Magneto asks who he is, and the Collective tells him he already knows and demands over & over bthat Magneto say "their name". Finally, Magneto screams out loud, "Xorn!!!", and when he does, he's all powered up again in his classic red attire.

The Avengers are rushing to where they see all the energy bursts, and they hear Magneto scream "Xorn!". Xorn then tells Magneto that he's gonna give him an army to "remind them of what they've done", at which point, all of the dead mutants that Cassandra killed dig themselves out of the ground and attack the Avengers.

Sentry then goes full speed into the Collective, which prompts Mags to blast both Sentry & the Collective. When the Collective hits the ground, there's a nude boy there who says his name is "Michael", but the energy part of the collective is all focused on and around Magneto. I'm not sure here, but I think it's trying to use Mags' body the way it did Michaels.

On the Helicarrier, the President orders Hill to nuke the island. She refuses saying that there is already a plan in motion.

SHIELD agents are on the ground, including Daisy Johson (the girl from Secret War). cap tells her to do to Mags' brain what she did to Wolverine's heart (in Secret War). She explains to those not in the know that she "started a pinpoint earthquake in Wolvie's chest which caused his heart to explode." She doesn't know if it'll kill Mags or not. Iron Man tells Carol to get into position and to get ready to absord whatever energy she can.

Sentry has engaged Mags, and Mags tells him to kill him and not let him be used like this, which causes Sentry to balk. Iron Man then tells Hill that he's gonna need lots of power from her (the Helicarrier) and she tells him to take what he needs.

Daisy then blasts Mags' brain, and the energy of the Collective goes everywhere. Ms Marvel absorbs what she can, but Iron Man captures the rest of it in a hard energy field and tells the Sentry to fly it into the sun. He does, and we ses a huge explosion, and the outline of a face screaming, then it disappears.

At this point it's pretty much over. Daisy tells the Avengers she wants her Avenger name to be "Quake". Cap tells her they don't wnat her. LOL! Iron Man explains to Michael that he is an energy absorbing mutant, which shocks him. He's sressing big time as memories of decimating Alpha Flight are coming to him. He leaves with SHIELD, and they say they'll teach him how to use his powers. Magneto is taken into SHIELD custody, but he seems to be in a coma. He's loaded on a helicopter and flown off, at which point it explodes. There's no signs of any survivors.

End

Thanks for the early sypnopsis. Oh man, well there goes any stories for Magneto for a while. Well, atleast they aren't running tail and giving the mutants back their powers. Seems like a great read. I can't wait to get it tomorrow.

[Sharcque]

Thanks for the early sypnopsis. Oh man, well there goes any stories for Magneto for a while. Well, atleast they aren't running tail and giving the mutants back their powers. Seems like a great read. I can't wait to get it tomorrow.
I dunno -- I kinda came away thinking that Mags made the helicopter explode while escaping....

[The Cool Thatguy]

I like continuity between titles and all, but why are The Avengers spending so much time and effort on what should basically be an X-Men story? The fate of the loose mutant energies, the addressing of Xorn (again!), Magneto's fate, Genosha's fate, etc. These are all X-Men plots. So why are the Avengers devoting so much time to them?

[Expletive Deleted]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.

[shaunyc56]

I'm a little tight about this, I like the story and the interactions between characters, but one of my favorite mutants lost his powers and I want him to get them back already. I mean how long can some of the most powerful mutants not have their powers. The character I'm talking about isn't all that powerful though.

[Keith_Martineau]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.

Um, they never adequately explained the Xorneto situation in the first place, and I think this pretty well fits the bill for that, ironing out the problems, and allowing all the stories to exist without contradicition.

[jj9126]

I like continuity between titles and all, but why are The Avengers spending so much time and effort on what should basically be an X-Men story? The fate of the loose mutant energies, the addressing of Xorn (again!), Magneto's fate, Genosha's fate, etc. These are all X-Men plots. So why are the Avengers devoting so much time to them?

Next issue: The New Avengers try to resolve the contradictions of the Destiny Diaries and battle a newly resurrected Cameron Hodge in the process. Meanwhile, Xorn III arrives at Stark Tower demanding to join the team...but is he friend or foe?

Meanwhile in X-Men: Ultron!

[algertman]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.


No, this is what you get when you have and EiC that won't say "NO" to crappy stories

Big difference

Don't blame continuity on crappy stories. Blame bad writing on crappy stories

[Expletive Deleted]

Um, they never adequately explained the Xorneto situation in the first placeSure they did.

It was Magneto on Kick.

If you didn't like that, it was an impostor.

If you didn't like that, it was all Wanda Ex Machina's fault.

Pick your poison.and I think this pretty well fits the bill for that, ironing out the problems, and allowing all the stories to exist without contradiction.My main issue, though, is that the problems didn't need to be ironed out. They want to say it wasn't really Magneto in the "Planet X" storyline? Sure, okay, it wasn't Magneto. There, problem solved. Why go into detail about it three years later?

To put it another way . . . if you're bound and determined to negate a story, why isn't a cursory retcon good enough? Why the need for this level of detail? What's wrong with just saying it didn't happen and moving the [expletive] on?

[Expletive Deleted]

Don't blame continuity on crappy stories. Blame bad writing on crappy storiesCan we blame both?

It's bad writing (or, more accurately, bad plotting), but if maintaining continuity is the motivation . . .

[algertman]

Can we blame both?

It's bad writing (or, more accurately, bad plotting), but if maintaining continuity is the motivation . . .


What does bad continuity come from? BAD WRITING. The fact they are allowing Bendis (King Screw Up of all things continuity) the "fix" Xorn is mind bending.

You can't blame continuity.

[Expletive Deleted]

Sure you can.

The perceived need to maintain tight continuity is the reason we see these types of fixes. The reasoning behind the writing is just as important as its quality with respect to culpability.

[Arilou]

I like continuity between titles and all, but why are The Avengers spending so much time and effort on what should basically be an X-Men story? The fate of the loose mutant energies, the addressing of Xorn (again!), Magneto's fate, Genosha's fate, etc. These are all X-Men plots. So why are the Avengers devoting so much time to them?

Because, surprise, they operate in the same universe (despite how often it seems like they're not) Rarely a year goes by in X-men comics without me having a "WTF aren't the other superheroes noticing this crap?" moment. It makes for a better, more cohesive universe that *sometimes they do*.

[algertman]

Sure you can.

The perceived need to maintain tight continuity is the reason we see these types of fixes. The reasoning behind the writing is just as important as its quality with respect to culpability.

That doesn't mean the writing has to suck. If the writing, and story suck, it's all the editorial and the writers fault. Not continuity.

[Expletive Deleted]

I think we're talking at right angles, here.

I don't blame continuity. It's just a tool, after all. And I'm not excusing bad writing. I'm saying that if there wasn't this fannish insistence (by the writer, the editor, or whomever) that old continuity nitpicks need to be dealt with, the bad writing wouldn't be coming into play.

I mean, if you hate Bendis, then it doesn't matter what he's writing. You're just going to say it sucks and that's the end of it. But if you like his work, then my point is that you'd rather see him pursuing his own storylines instead of unnecessarily and pointlessly cleaning up someone else's.

[Beast]

I agree with ED, they really didn't need to clarify/retcon the Xorn business yet again. They already stated it was an imposter, why need to dig it back out again and state it once more. Sure it only confirms that Xorneto was only using Magneto's image and face, but anyone who cares about Magneto's character knows this. But the problem there is, they don't even act like Sublime had anything to do with that. What really needs to be clarified is that 'Sublime' and 'That Which Endures' are one in the same, if they really want to clarify something that needs to be dealt with. Ah well, hopefully that's the last time we ever hear the name Xorn again.

[Drakenred]

Is it just me or are they suddenly trying to make it look like Hill is not sutch a total Idiot when it comes to Superheroes,

[The Lucky One]

I only briefly skimmed the last page while walking out of the store, but doesn't the memoir have Magneto mentioning that "Erik Lensherr is my homo sapiens name" or something like that? Which seems a bit odd, since it was revealed years ago that "Erik Lensherr" is a false identity he created with the help of a forger. If he's writing his memoirs, wouldn't he use his actual birth name?

-D

[jade_nova]

We next see Magneto, and the Collective is addressing him, telling him that he is the only one capable of leading the mutant nation; that he is the only one capable of avenging mutantdom. He tells Mags, not to fight it, to accept the "gift". He then tells Mags how "we" (the Collective) tried to do it before, using Mags's name & face, but that it didn't work because it had to be HIM, Magneto, and only him, no fakes. He tells how the body he's inhabiting is just his vessel, a mutant that absorbs energy & essences, however, that mutant is fighting "them" every step of the way. Magneto asks who he is, and the Collective tells him he already knows and demands over & over bthat Magneto say "their name". Finally, Magneto screams out loud, "Xorn!!!", and when he does, he's all powered up again in his classic red attire.

Huh? I think they need to start increasing the dosage of Bendis' meds or if not that then cut him back.

[Rich L]

If you didn't like that, it was all Wanda Ex Machina's fault.


That would certainly appear to have been the inhouse consensus when the OHTMU X-Men was put together with Xorn's entry in it.

[algertman]

That would certainly appear to have been the inhouse consensus when the OHTMU X-Men was put together with Xorn's entry in it.

wasn't there also a line somewhere, either in House of M or around that time, where they said Wanda was responsible for Xorn in actual comic

[Beast]

wasn't there also a line somewhere, either in House of M or around that time, where they said Wanda was responsible for Xorn in actual comic
Yeah, Dr. Strange hypothisized that she was.

[the4thpip]

I can't bring myself to read through an entire issue of Bendis' "New Avengers co-starring the New Avengers." I can't believe that this stuff sells as well as it does.

[Jake V]

I can't bring myself to read through an entire issue of Bendis' "New Avengers co-starring the New Avengers." I can't believe that this stuff sells as well as it does.
Why is it so hard to believe that people like different things than you do?

[algertman]

Why is it so hard to believe that people like different things than you do?


Because New Avengers is an awful book

[kel25]

Wow that just sounds like a really bad story. Thanks for letting me know I’ll be sure to skip it.

So they “killed” Magento again.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BlackKnight]

Why is it so hard to believe that people like different things than you do?

Why is it so hard to believe that people don't like things that you do?

:D

[SnakeEater]

What's wrong with just saying it didn't happen and moving the [expletive] on?

He has a point, i mean they did that with everything revolving the clone saga right. The only thing still around from that time is Norman Osborn (because they are going to kill the spidey girl title anyhow and once thats gone all we have is norman.)

When i saw the name xorn while flipping pages i thought ok a decent explanation, now i read it and it doenst answer anything at all, just some dork saying "we tried to be you" who cares we knew that.
STUPID STORY AND IM GLAD THE NEW AVENGERS ARE FINALLY GOING TO BE DISASSEMBLED, no more retarded stories with a group that actually accomplished nothing in the two years they were around

[Be Stiff]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.

I wish I could give you a small cake or maybe a fountain soda for this.

[Be Stiff]

Yeah, Dr. Strange hypothisized that she was.

Or that she was responsible for him walking around again after Wolverine cut his f**king head off in New York and she came into contact with his casket. That's how you swing these things, vauge and to the satisfaction of both parties.

If that was the explaination and we'd been given a decent grace period (three years) I could buy it. Morrison's reworking of the Phoenix never went into obsessive detail but fixed everything wonderfully. And this is how he gets repaid. Ech.

[Red State Cap]

I browsed this issue at the shop today. What a train wreck. The only redeeming feature of this story is that the Avengers actually appear in the comic. I think I might actually dislike this issue more than I did the issues where the Avengers don't appear, simply because it is such a mess.
And yes, Mr. Bendis is doing an abrubt about-face on Agent Hill, no doubt to make her look more sympathetic for the CW title.
I have to disagree with some of you about continuity.
Paying attention to continuity is both good and necessary.
Bad continuity is the result of bad writing.
Bad fixes to bad continuity is also the result of bad writing.
It seems to me that a "professional" writer should be able to come up with a good fix that makes more than a teaspoon full of sense, but perhaps I expect too much.

RSC

[agrich]

Since it hasn't been touched on yet, I'd like to mention that I don't know whether the problem is Deodato or the inker - I think it's a bit of both - but the art in this book really sucks.

[Haunt]

Since it hasn't been touched on yet, I'd like to mention that I don't know whether the problem is Deodato or the inker - I think it's a bit of both - but the art in this book really sucks.


i didn't purchase the latest issue because of the art. it's too expensive for confusing action.

[Rokk]

You can check out my review here (http://comicbookrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/06/comic-book-review-new-avengers-20.html).

I found this issue to be amazingly unimpressive. This was such an anti-climactic ending. This entire storyline has been pretty slow and pointless. I guess the only nice think I can say is that I liked how Bendis fleshed out Maria Hill's character in this issue.

[Rokk]

accidental post

[Haunt]

You can check out my review here (http://comicbookrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/06/comic-book-review-new-avengers-20.html).

I found this issue to be amazingly unimpressive. This was such an anti-climactic ending. This entire storyline has been pretty slow and pointless. I guess the only nice think I can say is that I liked how Bendis fleshed out Maria Hill's character in this issue.

what's the point if she's just going to order SHIELD agents to shoot at Cap in Civil War?

and i'm kind of surprised that the President was so quick to order a nuke.

[Jake V]

This was really the first time I've been disappointed by New Avengers. Mostly because I didn't NEED to get the whole Xorn thing resolved. I mean, yeah, it made sense and it was kinda neat, but I'd really prefer that Planet X stopped being referenced to. You don't need to resolve 2 year old stories that Marvel was desperately trying to forget anyway.

It had some nice team action, and the Sentry was used pretty well, along with Ms Marvel's powers and Iron Man's brains, but I've really had enough of Magneto for the time being.

But the Avengers DID fight zombies, so I guess that's something.

[Mo S.]

what's the point if she's just going to order SHIELD agents to shoot at Cap in Civil War?

and i'm kind of surprised that the President was so quick to order a nuke.

Isn't Genosha (what's left of it) a soverign foreign country? How can a US president order a nuclear strike without it being an act of war?

[Jagernaut]

From zombie ninjas to zombie mutants? When are we gonna get a zombie pirate fight?

[Sean Whitmore]

Which seems a bit odd, since it was revealed years ago that "Erik Lensherr" is a false identity he created with the help of a forger.


I'm pretty sure the unofficial rule of thumb around Marvel about Joe Kelly's X-Men run is, "Screw it, they don't count."

With all the plotlines dropped from that era, the "forger" plot holds absolutely no weight.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Isn't Genosha (what's left of it) a soverign foreign country? How can a US president order a nuclear strike without it being an act of war?


There's no real-world corollary for this, but does sovereignity still count if the country is a wasteland devoid of life?


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Ironically, for all the bending over backwards this issue did to clear up "Planet X", they completely left out Sublime...who was, y'know, responsible for that whole story.

But whatever. Confirmation is better than theory. And Xorn is in the sun now, so "yay".

Okay issue. I loved seeing the team all together, and Carol would be a great addition. Hill lives up to my predictions and turns out not to be evil. I like that Magneto didn't revert to cackling evil mode upon receiving all that power. And I like that his whereabout are now unknown, instead of rotting away on Genosha with nobody bothering him.

And the day was at least 60% saved by the actual stars of the book. And at least Daisy was specifically brought in by Cap, and didn't just stumble into things to save their lives.

Is it just me, or did Cap alternately tell Sentry NOT to kill Magneto and then tell Daisy TO try and kill him?

Spider-Man: (upon seeing Magneto return) "Thanks for the new metal suit, by the way."


SEAN

[Haunt]

Isn't Genosha (what's left of it) a soverign foreign country? How can a US president order a nuclear strike without it being an act of war?

beats me. i'm still trying to figure out why O.N.E had armed troops in Genosha going after Pietro. that's way way out of their jurisdiction. and what's with Captain America asking someone to kill Magneto? talk about passing the buck.

Ironically, for all the bending over backwards this issue did to clear up "Planet X", they completely left out Sublime...who was, y'know, responsible for that whole story.


maybe Sublime doesn't exist. maybe 'Sublime' is really 'Xorn.' he did possess a new person didn't he?

[jade_nova]

Isn't Genosha (what's left of it) a soverign foreign country? How can a US president order a nuclear strike without it being an act of war?

It's real easy when there is no government or anything else left in the country.

[Be Stiff]

I like that they kept it vauge if Magneto's not simply an insane mass-murderer with a split personality, like the actual story in the very well-writen comics I paid for told us he was. I hate the idea of having to buy fan-compiled reference materials to understand comic book stories, the triumph of pedantry over entertainment and intelligence. WE murdered in YOUR name is brilliantly vauge but at the end of the day Magneto's still a fascist genocidal bastard so all's well with the world. Bendis is a big fan of the Planet X reveal, y'know.

[Haunt]

I like that they kept it vauge if Magneto's not simply an insane mass-murderer with a split personality, like the actual story in the very well-writen comics I paid for told us he was. I hate the idea of having to buy fan-compiled reference materials to understand comic book stories, the triumph of pedantry over entertainment and intelligence. WE murdered in YOUR name is brilliantly vauge but at the end of the day Magneto's still a fascist genocidal bastard so all's well with the world. Bendis is a big fan of the Planet X reveal, y'know.

yep and that reveal, according to Bendis, is that Xorn was impersonating Magneto. fits perfectly with what was in the handbook.

[Sean Whitmore]

maybe Sublime doesn't exist. maybe 'Sublime' is really 'Xorn.' he did possess a new person didn't he?


If there's no "real" Sublime, that would render the entire Weapon X series invalid.

Yeah, I know, I know, "big loss". :p


SEAN

[Jagernaut]

Sentry blew up the chopper. Yup, I said it.

[Beast]

I like that they kept it vauge if Magneto's not simply an insane mass-murderer with a split personality, like the actual story in the very well-writen comics I paid for told us he was. I hate the idea of having to buy fan-compiled reference materials to understand comic book stories, the triumph of pedantry over entertainment and intelligence. WE murdered in YOUR name is brilliantly vauge but at the end of the day Magneto's still a fascist genocidal bastard so all's well with the world. Bendis is a big fan of the Planet X reveal, y'know.
No they didn't. They didn't leave it vague at all.

[Be Stiff]

yep and that reveal, according to Bendis, is that Xorn was impersonating Magneto. fits perfectly with what was in the handbook.

The handbook might as well be written by people on messageboards and it isn't part of the text because it isn't a comic book. The AoA one was riddled with big mistakes.

Bendis' reveals so far have

1) Strange saying "Magneto died and now he's back to life!" and Scarlett Witch replying "I don't know what's going on! I'm insane! Titter!" and now

2) A conversation between a sucidal old madman and an entity comprised of the residual personas and powers of thousands of mutants (one that was created long after "Xorn" was dead, too).

It could go either way, depending on your personal reading. Bendis is writing smart.

I'm happy to have it smudged over and the toys in order, for what it's worth.

[Sean Whitmore]

It could go either way, depending on your personal reading. Bendis is writing smart.


I'll buy that.

Of course, Xorn is in the sun now, so I no longer have to care. Yipee!


SEAN

[jadegiant77]

When is Bent D*ck--uh I mean Bendis leaving this book? This was the stupidest possible way to restore Magneto's powers! Just read any of Maggie's appearances in various books over the years or his recent entry in the X-Men Handbook: this guy is a master geneticist! He created a mutant(Alpha)! He mutated beings in the Savage Land! To have him bumming around Genosha and not trying to restore himself because of some editorial mandate is ridiculous.
And this issue just sucked ass.Why take the Collective into the sun instead of using it to, oh, I dunno, restore some of the mutants? Because Quesada said not to? Whatever.

[Sean Whitmore]

This was the stupidest possible way to restore Magneto's powers!


We've no indication they were restored.


Why take the Collective into the sun instead of using it to, oh, I dunno, restore some of the mutants? Because Quesada said not to? Whatever.


Did the Collective seem particularly agrreable or easy to contain to you?


SEAN

[Erik Lehnsherr]

So this whole thing ends with Magneto ending up in human hands and without any signs of life? Not what I wanted to see or read at all. Unless it leads to him just being taken out of the spotlight to next year when his movie comes out.

[lucifernomi]

I'm not going to trash this silly issue, and here's why:

If in fact this gets Magneto's powers back, at least it was appropriately large enough in scope not to seem too easy.

The Xorn thing was contrived, but at least it set the record straight.

Sentry sucks, but at least he makes me laugh. One of the most powerful mortals in the universe and Cap and Iron Man boss him around like a child. The disrespect for this irrationally powerful character makes me all warm and fuzzy.

Finally, yet another trace of House of M is gone!

[overcomebyfumes]

Why does Bendis have trouble tying up plot threads and writing endings? It seems like ever arc he gets off to a fairly good start, but he always drops the ball in the last issue. It's like he doesn't know how to end a story. I can't figure it out.

But yeah, big anti-climax. I felt let down.

Xorn.

[Sabrinaset]

XORN: Hey, who are you?

VOID: I'm Robert Reynolds...the Void. The Sentry threw me in here.

XORN: No kidding! Me too!

[DocZulu]

When is Bent D*ck--uh I mean Bendis leaving this book? This was the stupidest possible way to restore Magneto's powers! Just read any of Maggie's appearances in various books over the years or his recent entry in the X-Men Handbook: this guy is a master geneticist! He created a mutant(Alpha)! He mutated beings in the Savage Land! To have him bumming around Genosha and not trying to restore himself because of some editorial mandate is ridiculous.
And this issue just sucked ass.Why take the Collective into the sun instead of using it to, oh, I dunno, restore some of the mutants? Because Quesada said not to? Whatever.

I agree, but I also had problem with the pacing. Everything felt rushed. The action seemed blurred as the fighting scenes seemed somehow omitted....from an issue that focussed on action. :confused:

The dialogue didn't even match up with the drama of last issue--what happened to Civil War?

Why was the entire team present when it was apparent that just 3 of the members coudl have taken down the being?

I feel like Avengars has become a commercial--advertising for more important events that take place outside of the book. :mad:

[Bobster777]

I agree, but I also had problem with the pacing. Everything felt rushed. The action seemed blurred as the fighting scenes seemed somehow omitted....from an issue that focussed on action. :confused:

The dialogue didn't even match up with the drama of last issue--what happened to Civil War?

Why was the entire team present when it was apparent that just 3 of the members coudl have taken down the being?

I feel like Avengars has become a commercial--advertising for more important events that take place outside of the book. :mad:

I don't know if I understood what said, but this was all before CW.

I give this issue an okay. It didn't have to be so complicated. Also, I hate the fact that Magneto is in custody now. Well, things will get better now that NA will focus on the CW.

[Haunt]

I don't know if I understood what said, but this was all before CW.

I give this issue an okay. It didn't have to be so complicated. Also, I hate the fact that Magneto is in custody now. Well, things will get better now that NA will focus on the CW.

he's not in custody.

[Sean Whitmore]

Also, I hate the fact that Magneto is in custody now.


We don't know that he is. That helicopter exploding could very well have been him escaping.


SEAN

[Bobster777]

We don't know that he is. That helicopter exploding could very well have been him escaping.


SEAN

I have a feeling that Maria Hill set that all up. It would have had to be really quick and last minute, but considering how underhanded she is, I wouldn't put it past her.

[Haunt]

I have a feeling that Maria Hill set that all up. It would have had to be really quick and last minute, but considering how underhanded she is, I wouldn't put it past her.

well she does know about House of M, now. i think her letting Iron Man hear her talk with the President was all about getting him on her side (pre-Civil War).

[DocZulu]

This is ongoing with Civil War. Last issue there were direct references to Civil War.

Also, I think Mags caused the helicopter explosion--it at least left that open to interpretation.

I agree with those who say that it was a lame way to bring back his powers.

[Sean Whitmore]

I have a feeling that Maria Hill set that all up. It would have had to be really quick and last minute, but considering how underhanded she is, I wouldn't put it past her.


Very true, it's just that we won't know until Bendis (or whoever) decides to reveal it.

Hill's "good side" could have been a con, too. Maybe she didn't want to bomb the island because she couldn't resist adding Magneto to her Evil SHIELD Villain Corps.


SEAN

[Bobster777]

Very true, it's just that we won't know until Bendis (or whoever) decides to reveal it.

Hill's "good side" could have been a con, too. Maybe she didn't want to bomb the island because she couldn't resist adding Magneto to her Evil SHIELD Villain Corps.


SEAN

Man, Magneto would be a great weapon against Iron Man. As far as I know, his entire suit is still metal.

[Sean Whitmore]

Man, Magneto would be a great weapon against Iron Man. As far as I know, his entire suit is still metal.


Oh, they've gone at it a few times. I think Tony's found a way around Magneto's control before (though I definitely don't know how).


SEAN

[Be Stiff]

Can you quit spamming the boards? Please everytime you post you try to get a hit to your Sh%#$ website. No one cares to visit your damn site. If you want to post a review do what anyone else does, reply on a thread or start your own thread. Do not hyperlink your damn review it is annoying and I am frankly tired of seeing it!

I dunno, he writes a good synopsis. I don't mind having the resource there.

[Haunt]

Very true, it's just that we won't know until Bendis (or whoever) decides to reveal it.

Hill's "good side" could have been a con, too. Maybe she didn't want to bomb the island because she couldn't resist adding Magneto to her Evil SHIELD Villain Corps.


SEAN


lol! yeah, because a guy who survived the death camps is going to agree to be part of the 'secret police.'

[Darkwave]

I like continuity between titles and all, but why are The Avengers spending so much time and effort on what should basically be an X-Men story? The fate of the loose mutant energies, the addressing of Xorn (again!), Magneto's fate, Genosha's fate, etc. These are all X-Men plots. So why are the Avengers devoting so much time to them?

I know I'm a few pages late responding, but... FWIW, I really like the fact that the Avengers fought an X-men villain. I really wish we saw more villains being split among several different books.

[Sean Whitmore]

lol! yeah, because a guy who survived the death camps is going to agree to be part of the 'secret police.'


You think any of the believed-dead villains SHIELD is kidnapping are there 'cause they WANT to be?


SEAN

[Haunt]

You think any of the believed-dead villains SHIELD is kidnapping are there 'cause they WANT to be?


SEAN


who would these individuals be? i haven't seen any of them actually do anything. i doubt any of them would be as quick to commit suicide, rather than become a tool, as Magneto would be.

[Sean Whitmore]

who would these individuals be? i haven't seen any of them actually do anything. i doubt any of them would be as quick to commit suicide, rather than become a tool, as Magneto would be.


I dunno, I'm not saying it definitely happened, it's just one theory of many. Are you saying that it's COMPLETELY outside the realm of possibility?


SEAN

[drinkblatzbeer]

great issue...
i think it would have been cooler to see magneto thrown into the sun by sentry instead though, sort of as an homage to some old school comics...

i know the cover says deodato, but god does it look like an old kubert x-men job...

everything about this issue rocked...

[Haunt]

I dunno, I'm not saying it definitely happened, it's just one theory of many. Are you saying that it's COMPLETELY outside the realm of possibility?


SEAN


yes, that's what i'm saying. :)

[Sean Whitmore]

yes, that's what i'm saying. :)


You're not gonna like my theory that he was saved by Hitler's brain, then...


SEAN

[Syzygy]

I only briefly skimmed the last page while walking out of the store, but doesn't the memoir have Magneto mentioning that "Erik Lensherr is my homo sapiens name" or something like that? Which seems a bit odd, since it was revealed years ago that "Erik Lensherr" is a false identity he created with the help of a forger. If he's writing his memoirs, wouldn't he use his actual birth name?

-D

I caught this too, but it didn't bother me. After all, there's no reason for Magneto to reveal ALL his secrets. A great many personal memoirs are surely less than totally honest.

--Syz

[bert]

now wait a dang minute.

PAGES into this thread, and no one has pointed out that the Vision just SHOWS UP in the middle of the double page spread after not appearing in any group shot leading up to it?

and not a single character says "where the heck did you come from?"

was the Vision in the last issue?

last I heard, he was destroyed during Disassembled. When did he come back?
(and no, this wasn't the "Vision" from young Avengers. . .it looked like the good ol' Vizh).

of course, he did nothing. . so him being there didn't add anything at all. But it was so freaking odd that he just shows up in the middle of the fight scene.


at least Spidey got a great line in this issue (regarding his current costume and Magneto).

[Sean Whitmore]

was the Vision in the last issue?

last I heard, he was destroyed during Disassembled. When did he come back?
(and no, this wasn't the "Vision" from young Avengers. . .it looked like the good ol' Vizh).


I can't say with any certainty what page he showed up on this issue, but he has been part of this story arc all along. Just last issue, when Hill detained Spider-Man, she had Vision shut down.

And it IS Young Avengers Vision. That's just how he looks now.


SEAN

[Syzygy]

Isn't Genosha (what's left of it) a soverign foreign country? How can a US president order a nuclear strike without it being an act of war?

Our government has bombed countries we're not at war with myriad times, although not with nukes...yet.

--Syzygy

[Syzygy]

now wait a dang minute.

PAGES into this thread, and no one has pointed out that the Vision just SHOWS UP in the middle of the double page spread after not appearing in any group shot leading up to it?

and not a single character says "where the heck did you come from?"


I noticed this too. In fact, when I saw Vision, I went back to the previous pages thinking, "Hey, how come I didn't notice him?"

But he was in the previous issue, where Spidey got his brain sucked out by "Agent Hook".

--Syzygy

[overcomebyfumes]

I know I'm a few pages late responding, but... FWIW, I really like the fact that the Avengers fought an X-men villain. I really wish we saw more villains being split among several different books.

The Avengers first fought Magneto in issue #48, in 1968. They've fought him several times since then. Not as often as the X-Men, but Mags isn't solely an X-Men villian. He's also played a significant role in the origin of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch.

Pax.

[tjarvis]

Was that Xorn's face that Sentry saw in the sun that freaked him out so much, or the Void?

[The Lucky One]

The Avengers first fought Magneto in issue #48, in 1968. They've fought him several times since then. Not as often as the X-Men, but Mags isn't solely an X-Men villian. He's also played a significant role in the origin of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch.

They also fought him in Avengers #111, I think, as well as New Mutants #35 or so. And probably during the Bloodties crossover. And the Defenders fought him in Defenders #15-16 or so. And the Champions in Super-Villain Team-Up #14/Champions #16. He gets around.

So I just thought of something else... didn't it used to be Erik Lehnsherr, with a "k"? So basically, the guy used his fake alias as his real name in his memoir, and he spelled it wrong?

Man, you die a couple of dozen times and the mind just goes...

-D

[Syzygy]

When is Bent D*ck--uh I mean Bendis leaving this book? This was the stupidest possible way to restore Magneto's powers! Just read any of Maggie's appearances in various books over the years or his recent entry in the X-Men Handbook: this guy is a master geneticist! He created a mutant(Alpha)! He mutated beings in the Savage Land! To have him bumming around Genosha and not trying to restore himself because of some editorial mandate is ridiculous.
And this issue just sucked ass.Why take the Collective into the sun instead of using it to, oh, I dunno, restore some of the mutants? Because Quesada said not to? Whatever.

What I agree with: Magneto would indeed try to restore himself. He has indeed evolved animals and savages in the Savage Land into super-powered mutates. So yes, there's no reason for him not to try to "evolve" himself from human to mutant. You're quite right.

What I disagree with: insulting Bendis. I liked 19 out of 20 issues of the New Avengers, the exception being this issue. Maybe Bendis didn't just think of Maggie's genetics expertise.

But if I were the editor on this issue, I'd have shown Mags in a lab, busy at work, trying to evolve himself.

--Syzygy

[sephirothskiller]

Our government has bombed countries we're not at war with myriad times, although not with nukes...yet.

--Syzygy

I gotta say it seems like he was pretty quick to jump the gun there though... I'd at least think he'd be like "Oh ****, if I do this the entire world will hate me."

That said, I just finished the ish and have a couple of thoughts.

I hate the Sentry so very very much. How powerful is this guy supposed to be? So far it seems that he crazily outstrips everyone. Is he more powerful than a herald of Galactus? What about Galactus himself?

And on that note, why did it seem that Iron Man could do so much against the Collective? (before the whole exploding armour thing.) If Guardian just got demolished by the Collective than Iron Man would be even more crushed. Similar thoughts abound with Ms. Marvel.

On the other hand, I liked Agent Drew in this episode, and thought that the return of Magneto was awesome, because... It just is. Same with the Xorn thing. They said he was gone, but he'll be back. Xorn is always gonna be back. What with his crazy black hole mind.

Overall I thought it was a pretty sweet ish, and though I'm not the biggest Bendis fan, he's done a good job lately.

I sincerely hope that Magneto makes a later appearance in Civil War and busts some SHEILD's. Ummm... Yeah. So thats that.

Oh, and to add to the evil SHEILD villain corps thing... Whats the controversy here? We all know that they're gonna start hiring villains soon. Thats what gets the Punisher all angry later on.

I also agree that I liked the whole X-Men villain in the New Avengers thing. I always wondered why it seemed like whenever a villain showed up in New York their respective arch-enemy always seemed to be the only one near by.

[SnakeEater]

When is Bent D*ck--uh I mean Bendis leaving this book? This was the stupidest possible way to restore Magneto's powers! Just read any of Maggie's appearances in various books over the years or his recent entry in the X-Men Handbook: this guy is a master geneticist! He created a mutant(Alpha)! He mutated beings in the Savage Land! To have him bumming around Genosha and not trying to restore himself because of some editorial mandate is ridiculous.
And this issue just sucked ass.Why take the Collective into the sun instead of using it to, oh, I dunno, restore some of the mutants? Because Quesada said not to? Whatever.

Whoa, dude...you know what i couldnt have said it better myself. i give you thousands of e props for speaking the truth :cool:

[SnakeEater]

Very true, it's just that we won't know until Bendis (or whoever) decides to reveal it.

Hill's "good side" could have been a con, too. Maybe she didn't want to bomb the island because she couldn't resist adding Magneto to her Evil SHIELD Villain Corps.


SEAN


I dont disagree with you on that one, the whole makinf magento a weapon of hers like we already read in new avengers 1-6, but the only thing that throws that off is the ending. She seemed almost upset at what she read in the "suicide" note he was writing

[Haunt]

I dont disagree with you on that one, the whole makinf magento a weapon of hers like we already read in new avengers 1-6, but the only thing that throws that off is the ending. She seemed almost upset at what she read in the "suicide" note he was writing


could be. i thought she was upset because she just lost an opportunity at interrogating someone who knew everything about House of M.

[Drakenred]

Ironically, for all the bending over backwards this issue did to clear up "Planet X", they completely left out Sublime...who was, y'know, responsible for that whole story.

But whatever. Confirmation is better than theory. And Xorn is in the sun now, so "yay".

Okay issue. I loved seeing the team all together, and Carol would be a great addition. Hill lives up to my predictions and turns out not to be evil.Bascialy they had to do a "flying fix" on her charater in this issue, but unfortunatly all it ends up doing is makeing her look incredibly incompitent
I like that Magneto didn't revert to cackling evil mode upon receiving all that power. And I like that his whereabout are now unknown, instead of rotting away on Genosha with nobody bothering him.

And the day was at least 60% saved by the actual stars of the book. And at least Daisy was specifically brought in by Cap, and didn't just stumble into things to save their lives.

Is it just me, or did Cap alternately tell Sentry NOT to kill Magneto and then tell Daisy TO try and kill him?Given the aparent nature of her powers I realy dont know what to think of what Cap did.


Spider-Man: (upon seeing Magneto return) "Thanks for the new metal suit, by the way."


SEAN
Spidy is all the comic releife the Avengers need.

[Syzygy]

Well, I've been a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers since issue #1. I've liked them all through issue #19.

Can't say the same for #20.

Why was it even necessary to bring Xorn into this? As I understand it, Xorn was actually a rather sensitive and pleasant mutant--albeit one with a star in his brain--until Scarlet Witch transmuted him into an insane Magneto clone. Later, Xorn, now "Xorneto", starts sucking Kick, and devastates New York City.

(I have a hard time believing only 5,000 people died in the Planet X NYC attack, but forget that.)

Finally, Xorneto kills Jean Grey, and gets his head cut off by Wolverine.

So, since Xorn/Xorneto died well before decimation, there's no real reason for his energies to be within the collective mutant energy cloud.

So where did he come from? It makes no sense to me.

This version of "Xorn" makes it seem as though he willingly impersonated Magneto, rather than against his will (Scarlet Witch).

Why is Bendis doing a "mutant energy cloud" story anyway? What happened to the subplot where both SHIELD and HYDRA were being controlled by hidden manipulators? I would rather have seen that story than this one.

A number posters have praised Director Hill for not nuking the Avengers...except she DID nuke them back in the Savage Land, when they had stumbled upon that SHIELD slave-mining operation. So something's still not right with Hill, IMO.

Also, I never thought I'd see Captain America giving an order to assassinate a supervillain. Cap has been in tough situations before. I'd have thought him to be the last person to order someone to be "capped". :D

Well...I liked the previous 19 issues....

Peace,
Syzygy

[Drakenred]

Can you quit spamming the boards? Please everytime you post you try to get a hit to your Sh%#$ website. No one cares to visit your damn site. If you want to post a review do what anyone else does, reply on a thread or start your own thread. Do not hyperlink your damn review it is annoying and I am frankly tired of seeing it!Just do what I did

put his <ARROW> on ignore.

[Jack]

Hahahaha.

Bendis: You want continuity? I'll give you goddamn continuity!

And lo, it came to pass that no one asked Bendis for continuity ever again.

[Drakenred]

What I agree with: Magneto would indeed try to restore himself. He has indeed evolved animals and savages in the Savage Land into super-powered mutates. So yes, there's no reason for him not to try to "evolve" himself from human to mutant. You're quite right.

What I disagree with: insulting Bendis. I liked 19 out of 20 issues of the New Avengers, the exception being this issue. Maybe Bendis didn't just think of Maggie's genetics expertise.

But if I were the editor on this issue, I'd have shown Mags in a lab, busy at work, trying to evolve himself.

--SyzygyDid you ever stop to think that maybe this time, Magi did not want to because it was his own Kids who did this to him, and that maybee he is still dealing with the reality that maybee, just maybee he is a monster?

After all this is not the first time Magneto had to deal with what he was and did not like what he saw (Uncanny X-men 150 where he almost kills Kitty for example)

[Syzygy]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this time, Magi did not want to because it was his own Kids who did this to him, and that maybee he is still dealing with the reality that maybee, just maybee he is a monster?

After all this is not the first time Magneto had to deal with what he was and did not like what he saw (Uncanny X-men 150 where he almost kills Kitty for example)

No. I don't think that Magneto would "allow" himself to be a mere baseline, if he had any choice in the matter.

Just because he wants to "atone" for his failures in Genosha and with Wanda and Pietro doesn't imply--to me at least--that he would willingly choose to remain powerless.

The look of horror on his face in House of M #8, when he finds he cannot levitate a fork, tells me all I need to know in regard to how he feels about being a baseline.

--Syzygy

[garydenaldo]

now wait a dang minute.

PAGES into this thread, and no one has pointed out that the Vision just SHOWS UP in the middle of the double page spread after not appearing in any group shot leading up to it?

and not a single character says "where the heck did you come from?"

was the Vision in the last issue?

last I heard, he was destroyed during Disassembled. When did he come back?
(and no, this wasn't the "Vision" from young Avengers. . .it looked like the good ol' Vizh).

of course, he did nothing. . so him being there didn't add anything at all. But it was so freaking odd that he just shows up in the middle of the fight scene.


at least Spidey got a great line in this issue (regarding his current costume and Magneto).

I noticed that, too. It seemed like he swapped places with Spider-man. In those first few panels that he appeared in, all of the other Avengers were there, but Spider-man was inexplicably missing. Maybe this Spider-man is a cyborg! Or maybe he changed his suit's appearance to look like the Vision. I don't have the issue in front of me, but do Spidey and Vision ever share the same panel? I know they did last issue, but in this one, I'm not so sure. Conspiracy!

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't have the issue in front of me, but do Spidey and Vision ever share the same panel?


Spider-Man doesn't share the panel with punks who don't even have their own series.


SEAN

[Harold of the Rocks]

In regards to Magneto not slaving in a lab trying to play Dr. Frankenstein on himself...

Would you? There's a difference between experimenting on another life form and experimenting on yourself. Also, I would say that he is in a sort of grieving period, and not in the state of mind to take action -- especially a very radical action -- on himself... not yet, anyway. Maybe his writings were a presursor to him thinking about goin' down the road to reclaim his genealogy. I would think that if one of his genius were to take such an action, he'd try to consider every contingency before stickin' the proverbial needle in his arm... not just whip up a mutant cocktail and slug it down "here goes nothing'!". I can appreciate the perspective that Magneto would want to reclaim his mutantcy, but there are differences between him and your run-of-the-mill mad scientist... at least from my perspective.

A couple quick points...

- Vision's 'sudden' appearance? No big deal. When we first see the Avengers arrive, Spidey is in the process of disembarking from the chopper. No reason Vision isn't on board still. And after that, there is no panel of the entire group (minus Vision) until the big spread where they are surrounded by the zombies - a panel in which Spidey is missing from, I would add (unless he's obscured for some reason). That seems to be more of a gaffe to me.

- Spidey's quips are nice, but the by-play with him and Cage are what makes the comic relief. Not just in this issue, but throughout the series.

- I like seeing the disagreements appear in the heat of battle between teammates. Sentry offering to sink the island, Jessica and Carol think it's a good idea, Cap says no way. Are we seeing some 'fault lines' amongst which the team will disassemble?

- Cap didn't try and protect Magneto only to later contradict himself (having Daisy put a pinpoint earthquake in his head -- isn't it a brainquake, by the way? She's not disrupting tectonic plates in this instance...). Cap's reason for Sentry not flying Magneto into the sun was because the energies 'have to be contained'. Cap was keeping Magneto on the island, not neccesarily 'saving' him.

- Tony's statement to Carol about being a hero was on the money. Maybe this is something she needed to hear considering she wants to reach a pinnacle of heroism. I'm also loving seeing Iron Man as a major force to be reckoned with... :)

- I couldn't agree more with the arguments made by those that see this team taking on a supposed 'X-Villain' as appropriate. Why wouldn't they? A threat is a threat is a threat, regardless of it's genetics.

- I'm almost feeling lke the disassembling of this team is coming on too soon. Well, Bendis' hand is being a bit forced by Civil War. I'm looking forward to the tie-ins and aftermath to see who will be on this team when the dust clears!

[Syzygy]

In regards to Magneto not slaving in a lab trying to play Dr. Frankenstein on himself...

Would you? There's a difference between experimenting on another life form and experimenting on yourself. Also, I would say that he is in a sort of grieving period, and not in the state of mind to take action -- especially a very radical action -- on himself... not yet, anyway. Maybe his writings were a presursor to him thinking about goin' down the road to reclaim his genealogy. I would think that if one of his genius were to take such an action, he'd try to consider every contingency before stickin' the proverbial needle in his arm... not just whip up a mutant cocktail and slug it down "here goes nothing'!". I can appreciate the perspective that Magneto would want to reclaim his mutantcy, but there are differences between him and your run-of-the-mill mad scientist...

I can agree with most all of this. The thing is, he doesn't have to experiment upon himself first. There are plenty of depowered mutants in the world who would happily volunteer for an experimental procedure along these lines....

So first would come reasearch, the gathering of data. Next, he'd play Dr. Frankenstein upon someone else.

Only then, after positive results, would he stck the proverbial needle in his own arm.

--Syzygy

[jmc247]

I know Captain America never liked Magneto, but usually when someone is being controlled by a evil force he tries something to save them or at least asks if something can be done to save them before ordering that they be killed. I really didn't like the charaterizations all around in this comic.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't know that Cap wanted Magneto to be killed. He seemed to think that Daisy setting off a quake in his brain would do vague thing to stop Xorn...and lo and behold, that's exactly what it did.

What it was, I dunno. How Cap knew it, I dunno. How Magneto survived it, I dunno. But it wouldn't be the first time we had to swallow day-saving pseudo science in comics.


SEAN

[jmc247]

I don't know that Cap wanted Magneto to be killed. He seemed to think that Daisy setting off a quake in his brain would do vague thing to stop Xorn...and lo and behold, that's exactly what it did.

What it was, I dunno. How Cap knew it, I dunno. How Magneto survived it, I dunno. But it wouldn't be the first time we had to swallow day-saving pseudo science in comics.


So you are saying it was just bad writing?

[Jmacq1]

So you are saying it was just bad writing?


I'm pretty sure he's just saying it's a typical comic-book "gimmick". Neither bad nor good, just not unusual.

[Soundrave]

The handbook might as well be written by people on messageboards and it isn't part of the text because it isn't a comic book. The AoA one was riddled with big mistakes.

Bendis' reveals so far have

1) Strange saying "Magneto died and now he's back to life!" and Scarlett Witch replying "I don't know what's going on! I'm insane! Titter!" and now

2) A conversation between a sucidal old madman and an entity comprised of the residual personas and powers of thousands of mutants (one that was created long after "Xorn" was dead, too).

It could go either way, depending on your personal reading. Bendis is writing smart.

I'm happy to have it smudged over and the toys in order, for what it's worth.


I'll take a well-researched Handbook over anything written by Bendis any day of the week.

I believe the AoA Handbook was written entirely by editor/writer Mike Raicht. But that besides the point -- just about any book written by Bendis is riddled with mistakes. He couldn't even get Magneto's name right in this issue!

It's ridiculous when people try to make distinctions between the handbooks and the comics. It seems like it's mostly people who get angry because their own little personal theories about stories and characters get refuted by the handbook. Oh well, tough break. The Handbooks are official Marvel publications written by professional Marvel writers that summarize past information and present new information. Canon is canon, dude.

[Majinlex]

And poor Daisy thought she was being recruited for the Avengers :p
Talk about embarrassing. I bet she'll get picked on now in the S.H.I.E.L.D. cafeteria.
And I don't care that Hill is trying to be nice by not blowing up the Avengers, she still mind-raped Spidey in the last issue.

[BlackKnight]

I would ask why you are such an ass,but you just are,so there's no point in that.

and I would ask why you made this comment? But hey I know you can't answer it.

[Red Lotus]

I thought the issue was good. I myself have a problem with the Xorn/Magneto thing. So wait Xorn turned his self into Magneto now or was it Wanda or Sublime. How many times will Marvel change this. :rolleyes:

I do think Magneto got his power back.

Does anyone else think that this Michael Pointer guy is going to be on the new Alpha Flight.



This is ongoing with Civil War. Last issue there were direct references to Civil War.


I think this happen before. Wasn't the references to the SRA. Tony and Peter went to DC to try to talk them out of passing it so I just thought that this was around that time.

[Majinlex]

Yeah. The reference in the last issue was Hill saying to Spider-man that the SHRA would be passed soon. Not that it was already passed.

I haven't been keeping up with a lot of the SHIELD stuff but when did they find out Spidey's identity? Was it when he joined the New Avengers? Before? or was it last issue?

[agrich]

It seems like it's mostly people who get angry because their own little personal theories about stories and characters get refuted by the handbook. Oh well, tough break. The Handbooks are official Marvel publications written by professional Marvel writers that summarize past information and present new information. Canon is canon, dude.

I've got an official handbook from the '80s that includes the Norman Osborn Green Goblin in the "Book of the Dead." Can I go with that official publication over more recent events in the comics?

[Beamish]

Well, in my opinion, the whole Collective saga can be summed up into one question - Did Alpha Flight really have to die to tell this story?

[unkiedev]

I'll take a well-researched Handbook over anything written by Bendis any day of the week.

I believe the AoA Handbook was written entirely by editor/writer Mike Raicht. But that besides the point -- just about any book written by Bendis is riddled with mistakes. He couldn't even get Magneto's name right in this issue
Look, don't blame Bendis for such things. I've asked this a number of times: Does Marvel even EMPLOY editors anymore? There are supposed to be people on staff who catch things like that.

Bah. I thought it was another solid New Avengers book. My only beef was the vision being there out of nowhere just to say one thing. If Ms. Marvel and Vision are on board these days Cap couldn have had "Quake" or whatever her name is.

[Red Lotus]

I haven't been keeping up with a lot of the SHIELD stuff but when did they find out Spidey's identity? Was it when he joined the New Avengers? Before? or was it last issue?


I dont know when. I think the first time I can think of was a Wolverine/Spider-man LS that had Nick Fury coming to Peter Parker and telling him they needed him to help save an agent who they lost contact with. That agent was Wolverine. But I think SHIELD has known for a long time.

[shaunyc56]

I dont know when. I think the first time I can think of was a Wolverine/Spider-man LS that had Nick Fury coming to Peter Parker and telling him they needed him to help save an agent who they lost contact with. That agent was Wolverine. But I think SHIELD has known for a long time.


There are stories w/ NicK Fury popping up in someones real life to draft them into service.

[Red Lotus]

There are stories w/ NicK Fury popping up in someones real life to draft them into service.

In Secret War When Nick Fury went to get the heroes for his mission. When he went to get Spider-man, He wasn’t there. So when Spider-man showed up he heard someone talking and recognized Fury voice and then he said to his self what is Nick Fury doing in my everyday Peter Parker life or something like that.

[UniqueFrequency]

i was quite disappointed with this issue. what's the point of bringing the whole Xorn thing back in? Magneto has powers again? it's like Bendis writes Disassembled to bring about HoM, and then writes NA to "undo" HoM. what's the point.

[Soundrave]

I've got an official handbook from the '80s that includes the Norman Osborn Green Goblin in the "Book of the Dead." Can I go with that official publication over more recent events in the comics?

Think of a more intelligent question and I'll provide you with a more detailed response next time.

[Soundrave]

Look, don't blame Bendis for such things. I've asked this a number of times: Does Marvel even EMPLOY editors anymore? There are supposed to be people on staff who catch things like that.


Sorry, I don't buy that excuse entirely. Sure, it would be great if editors at Marvel did their jobs again, checked facts, and asserted more control over writers. I can't explain why they don't anymore. Are the assistant editors getting lazy? Does Tom Brevoort have too many titles under his editorial umbrella? Are they afraid that if they appear too stifling then Bendis will jump ship and sign an exclusive with DC? I can't say with any certainty.

But I do know that if I were a professional getting paid good money to turn in a work product and my supervisor wasn't doing a very good job at checking my work, then I'd take it upon myself to research and check my own work and make sure it was up to standards and free from errors. I think the same thing applies here. Writers need to take the initiative and operate as if their scripts are going directly to the public, without an editor's proofreading.

Do you think editors make massive edits to scripts turned in by Greg Pak, Fab Nic, Geoff Johns, Dan Slott, and Kurt Busiek? No, I think it's a case of those writers doing the research and catching their own mistakes so that the work product they turn in is professional and the best it can be. If you go in with the mindset that "hey, this info in my script may be wrong, but I don't feel like looking it up and I'm sure the editor will sort everything out," then you're doing a disservice to yourself and your audience.

[SnakeEater]

could be. i thought she was upset because she just lost an opportunity at interrogating someone who knew everything about House of M.

Then again she could be upset because whoever is stealing the villians stole mag's from her. I mean maybe sheild isnt involved in these scandals, well not all of them, at least.

[agrich]

Think of a more intelligent question and I'll provide you with a more detailed response next time.

Geez, lighten up. I wasn't arguing with you so much as saying I honestly wish all those handbooks were totally reliable, but the truth is that stuff does happen in the comic books that contradicts them, often regrettably.

I'm totally indifferent to what's canon and what isn't. I do not care. I don't care if Bendis is clueless in that regard. It's all fiction and there's plenty of stuff in comics that contradicts itself and other people can worry about it.

Point of my comment was I sure wish Osborn had in fact stayed dead because the Handbook said he was, that's all. Sorry you took it so personally....no need to get snitty about it.

[Bobster777]

i was quite disappointed with this issue. what's the point of bringing the whole Xorn thing back in? Magneto has powers again? it's like Bendis writes Disassembled to bring about HoM, and then writes NA to "undo" HoM. what's the point.

Yeah, I didn't really get the whole Xorn thing. That was something that was thrown into the issue for no reason. It was really great too how everything started (Magneto writing his manifesto). In terms of him getting his powers, he may not have. After all, they did siphon all that energy out of him.

[DDM]

They also fought him in Avengers #111, I think, as well as New Mutants #35 or so. And probably during the Bloodties crossover. And the Defenders fought him in Defenders #15-16 or so. And the Champions in Super-Villain Team-Up #14/Champions #16. He gets around.

So I just thought of something else... didn't it used to be Erik Lehnsherr, with a "k"? So basically, the guy used his fake alias as his real name in his memoir, and he spelled it wrong?

Man, you die a couple of dozen times and the mind just goes...

-D

The Avengers fight Magneto again in The New Mutants #40; they believe Magneto is reverting to type when the police call the Avengers at the behest of Miss Emma Frost, secretly the White Queen of the Hellfire Club. The Avengers believe Magneto is recruiting another version of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants when he is really trying to rescue the New Mutants from the White Queen's school. The Avengers are the White Queen's pawns...

[Will.S]

What I agree with: Magneto would indeed try to restore himself. He has indeed evolved animals and savages in the Savage Land into super-powered mutates. So yes, there's no reason for him not to try to "evolve" himself from human to mutant. You're quite right.

What I disagree with: insulting Bendis. I liked 19 out of 20 issues of the New Avengers, the exception being this issue. Maybe Bendis didn't just think of Maggie's genetics expertise.

But if I were the editor on this issue, I'd have shown Mags in a lab, busy at work, trying to evolve himself. I dunno, it would be kinda hard for Magneto to do all that in Genosha when there's practically no energy and with it being in ruins and all. At best Magneto can create some sort of very crude lab out of anything salvageable but other than that he would need to have access to higher tech equipment outside of Genosha. In order to give him his powers back on Genosha it would have to be by outside interference such as seen here by the Collective/Xorn or by Son of M Quicksilver who can now give mutants their powers back.

As for the issue itself, there were definitely some problems with it as I disliked the whole Xorn/Magneto explanation here as it greatly reduces the role Sublime had in Planet X and it tries to (all too conveniently) fix something using Bendis's own House of M born creation. I mean, it does goes hand in hand with the Marvel Handbook in saying that it was Xorn posing as Magneto but the reason WHY it did what it did during Planet X was mostly due to the Sublime in the kick, not because it had any intentions of rallying mutants behind him so this pretty much retcons that whole idea leaving the kick as just a power booster but it also damages Morrison's overall plan for Sublime. Also while Daisy Johnson helps out during a crisis this big, she's still supposed to be underground with Nick so Hill should have been all over her unless SHIELD plans on detaining her after knowing her whereabouts. Then there's the error with Magneto's name with "Eric" instead of "Erik" which was annoying since something so simple wasn't caught.

I will admit though that there were alot of cool things about the confrontation itself though such as:
Acolyte Zombies (I recognized Senyaka and another with an Acolyte headpiece)
The New Avengers fighting both the zombies and Magneto
Their teamwork against the Collective/Xorn. The use of Daisy, Ms. Marvel, Iron Man and Sentry though was kind of confusing in the way it was done as I'm not sure if Cap and Iron Man went into the plan fully knowing a Xorn possesed Magneto's powers
Wolverine again acknowledging Alpha Flight's defeat in anger at MichaelAs far as Magneto himself goes, I think there's more to him. Most likely either someone from the outside set up that explosion and excavated him in time or he did it himself and pocket wormholed himself stealthily out of there. I think he has his powers again too since Xorn went to Genosha through Michael to transfer his powers onto Magneto but I'm sure this'll be addressed sometime later when plans for Magneto arise again.

If anyone noticed, there's a funny panel where Wolverine points at Daisy as a reminder of what she did to him in Secret War since she did the same to Magneto. The art by Deodato was hit and miss as he has some of the same problems as Finch in that he over-renders alot of things with heavy uses of shadow and the coloring doesn't have enough space to work with. While this isn't really Mike's fault, Daisy Johnson and Maria Hill are harder to distinguish given both their short hair and their S.H.I.E.L.D. uniforms. I also felt that the linework should have been tighter than it was here so I would have brought in an inker that can reign Mike's work in and make it easier to follow. The coloring change like near the end isn't neccessarily jarring like in the Annual but makes it look inconsistent due to Isanove's colors being richer than Dave Sewarts so I would have preferred for whicever colorist to have done the issue all the way but personally Isanove made a better color impression on the art.

Alltogether if I had to give it a score I'd rate it a 6/10 as it complicates things rather than let it be as Expletive said.

[jpk]

Anyone else think it was out of character for Wolverine to get pissy and indignant about Michael offing Alpha Flight? I mean, I know the runt was a member at one time, but he's a stone-cold killer getting all bent over what, half a dozen dead heroes? And logan has killed, what, 100,000 people or so in his lifetime?

I believe the stinker line Logan spews at Michael when Michael says he wasn't in control of himself is "Tell that to Alpha Flight!"

I mean...what?

[Will.S]

Anyone else think it was out of character for Wolverine to get pissy and indignant about Michael offing Alpha Flight? I mean, I know the runt was a member at one time, but he's a stone-cold killer getting all bent over what, half a dozen dead heroes? And logan has killed, what, 100,000 people or so in his lifetime?

I believe the stinker line Logan spews at Michael when Michael says he wasn't in control of himself is "Tell that to Alpha Flight!"

I mean...what?
Alpha Flight were heroes doing their job though, while Logan has killed they were mostly scumbags so it's different.

[algertman]

Alpha Flight were heroes doing their job though, while Logan has killed they were mostly scumbags so it's different.


Tell that to Zombie NorthStar.

How many SHIELD guys did he kill in Enemy Of The State?

[Will.S]

Tell that to Zombie NorthStar.

How many SHIELD guys did he kill in Enemy Of The State?
The poster? I think I will!

As far as the SHIELD soldiers go, he was being controlled by Hydra/the Hand.

[algertman]

The poster? I think I will!


WHat? there's an actual poster on here named Zombie Northstar :confused:

[Expletive Deleted]

I mean, I know the runt was a member at one time, but he's a stone-cold killer getting all bent over what, half a dozen dead heroes?So, what, because he's a killer he can't get upset when something happens to his friends?

If he started sobbing in the fetal position, maybe you'd have a point, but I think his anger was reasonably in character.

[Sean Whitmore]

Anyone else think it was out of character for Wolverine to get pissy and indignant about Michael offing Alpha Flight?


Not particularly. I mean, he's definitely wrong and out of line, but when has that ever stopped him from opening his yap in the past?


SEAN

[Will.S]

So, what, because he's a killer he can't get upset when something happens to his friends?

If he started sobbing in the fetal position, maybe you'd have a point, but I think his anger was reasonably in character.
Heh basically what I'm saying.

Sure it would seem that Wolverine saying that to Michael would seem sort of like the pot calling the kettle black but Alpha Flight were close personal friends with Wolverine so it's ok with me.

[Keith_Martineau]

Magneto would indeed try to restore himself. He has indeed evolved animals and savages in the Savage Land into super-powered mutates. So yes, there's no reason for him not to try to "evolve" himself from human to mutant. You're quite right.

This is an inaccurate view of Magneto. Firstly, there is the issue of his own views of his failure and his being obsolete in this new world. Certainly there is nothing that says that if he lit a fire under his ass, he'd try to restore his own powers---but there is specific wording here. HE'D try to restore his OWN powers.

Magneto, above all, is extraordinarily proud. He does NOT like being used, and he does NOT like being mucked with, no matter the purpose, or end result. He would never allow the Collective/Xorn to use him, for any purpose. He hated being used by Pietro and Wanda for HoM. He HATED the fact that his body and mind were messed with by the High Evolutionary, and Moira McTaggart (X-Men 1-3.)

Magneto is REALLY not the kind of dude who'd "do anything" to restore his powers. If he's going to get them back, it's going to be his decision, and his doing only.

[jpk]

Heh basically what I'm saying.

Sure it would seem that Wolverine saying that to Michael would seem sort of like the pot calling the kettle black but Alpha Flight were close personal friends with Wolverine so it's ok with me.


Then in true Wolverine fashion he should have just snikt-ed Michael on the spot and have been done with it. :evilsmile

[jpk]

Getting back to the suddenly-apeparing Vision:

Do you think with YA going on hiatus that Marvel is setting up a return of Vision to the post Civil War team? He's only been in the last couple issues of NA, but it seems like Bendis is setting the table to bring him back into the fold.

[Will.S]

If he's going to get them back, it's going to be his decision, and his doing only.
It seems as though in this case, he doesn't have much of a choice. After reading the "Xorn" dialogue with Magneto I'm convinced he gave him his powers back through Michael. It's almost done in a roundabout fashion, Wanda takes them away during House of M, the Collective absorbs them, then the Collective gives them back to Magneto.

It makes Magneto pretty important again and after seeing Magneto show up in Excalibur so soon after Planet X, Marvel's not looking to get rid of the character even if for a short time as I'm sure the X-editors are already trying to wrangle Magneto back.

[Haunt]

Getting back to the suddenly-apeparing Vision:

Do you think with YA going on hiatus that Marvel is setting up a return of Vision to the post Civil War team? He's only been in the last couple issues of NA, but it seems like Bendis is setting the table to bring him back into the fold.

but which fold; New Avengers or Mighty Avengers? if Iron Man is the one to leave the New Avengers, it would make sense to have Vision around. otherwise, i dunno. so what are the Young Avengers going to do now that they've lost their 'free internet access?'

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

From zombie ninjas to zombie mutants? When are we gonna get a zombie pirate fight?

After the Robot-Zombie-Cowboys, but before the Zombie-Gladiator-Druid-Outlaw Bikers. Obviously.

[drwho]

This story had a lousy ending. All that build up to put Magneto in a situation that we know aint going to stick. The whole blowing up the copter at the end was dumb and pointless. Also if you never read X-men how are you supposed to know who xorn is. I read the thing and i still dont know who he is.

[DoctorDoom]

sooo waitasec...Maria Hill was concerned about the Avengers so she just didn't nuke the island? That sure as hell didn't stop her from bombing the Savage Land back in the very first story arc. I'm not being sarcastic, but can someone please explain that one to me?

[Haunt]

sooo waitasec...Maria Hill was concerned about the Avengers so she just didn't nuke the island? That sure as hell didn't stop her from bombing the Savage Land back in the very first story arc. I'm not being sarcastic, but can someone please explain that one to me?


Life Model Decoy

[drwho]

sooo waitasec...Maria Hill was concerned about the Avengers so she just didn't nuke the island? That sure as hell didn't stop her from bombing the Savage Land back in the very first story arc. I'm not being sarcastic, but can someone please explain that one to me?

Wasnt Hill the one also that had Shield psychics look into Spidey's head? Maybe she has multiple personalities or is a clone.

[Haunt]

Wasnt Hill the one also that had Shield psychics look into Spidey's head? Maybe she has multiple personalities or is a clone.


devil's advocate: what she did to Spiderman was an attempt at gathering information to stop the Collective. it's not her fault that Spiderman and Iron Man were attempting to hide information. and just think about it, how are the actions of the Avengers any less dickish than Agent Hill's? if Iron Man were doing what she is, we'd be saying "attaboy Tony. get the job done." do any of you think that Tony wouldn't use the team psychic to steal information from someone to get the job done? he already uses that armor of his to hack into government databases.

[Hiromi]

sooo waitasec...Maria Hill was concerned about the Avengers so she just didn't nuke the island? That sure as hell didn't stop her from bombing the Savage Land back in the very first story arc. I'm not being sarcastic, but can someone please explain that one to me?

Just shows that her explination to the Avengers was likely the truth, so far as she knew, when the coords were set for the Weapons they didn't even know the Avengers were there. She may not like them, she may be a ruthless bitch, but it also seems she doesn't want them to die a radioactive death either. Which I say bravo to, as her character continues to get deeper beyond the place holder for Fury.

[agrich]

I don't want to give Hill too much benefit of the doubt. She might not have known the Avengers were there, but some innocent savage land types were certainly killed by that fairly drastic solution to the crimes of a "covert group within SHIELD." And by killing everyone she certainly prevented any further investigation of the whole thing. Plus someone in SHIELD is stockpiling supercriminals, also according to the end of that arc.

But gee, why would anyone have their doubts about SHIELD enforcing the pro-registration act? Nothing fishy going on with them or anything.

[Haunt]

I don't want to give Hill too much benefit of the doubt. She might not have known the Avengers were there, but some innocent savage land types were certainly killed by that fairly drastic solution to the crimes of a "covert group within SHIELD." And by killing everyone she certainly prevented any further investigation of the whole thing. Plus someone in SHIELD is stockpiling supercriminals, also according to the end of that arc.

But gee, why would anyone have their doubts about SHIELD enforcing the pro-registration act? Nothing fishy going on with them or anything.

gee, why would anyone think that superheroes are dangerous? it's not like Iron Man isn't going around assassinating people for the second time in his own title. and it's not like this same guy lied about retiring as a superhero, is part of a secret cabal of other heroes, paid a supervillain to attack him in public, hid the House of M from the world, etc.

[Bobster777]

I don't want to give Hill too much benefit of the doubt. She might not have known the Avengers were there, but some innocent savage land types were certainly killed by that fairly drastic solution to the crimes of a "covert group within SHIELD." And by killing everyone she certainly prevented any further investigation of the whole thing. Plus someone in SHIELD is stockpiling supercriminals, also according to the end of that arc.

But gee, why would anyone have their doubts about SHIELD enforcing the pro-registration act? Nothing fishy going on with them or anything.

If anything, SHIELD are just federal agents doing their jobs. As for Iron Man, he's been doing things that are just completely unecessary. Just because you have a belief, it doesn't mean you have a right to trick other people onto coming onboard with your belief. The guy is is just one notch below of being a villain to me. We'll see how CW turns out as to whether my opinion changes one way or the other.

[agrich]

I'm certainly not defending Iron Man. I just don't see how you can read the last issue of the first New Avengers arc and not come to the conclusion that there was some shady stuff going on within SHIELD. The only explanation Hill gives is "they were a covert group acting without our authority." Which is certainly possible - as it is they were "without authority" only once they got caught.

[Drakenred]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this time, Magi did not want to because it was his own Kids who did this to him, and that maybee he is still dealing with the reality that maybee, just maybee he is a monster?

After all this is not the first time Magneto had to deal with what he was and did not like what he saw (Uncanny X-men 150 where he almost kills Kitty for example)No. I don't think that Magneto would "allow" himself to be a mere baseline, if he had any choice in the matter.

Just because he wants to "atone" for his failures in Genosha and with Wanda and Pietro doesn't imply--to me at least--that he would willingly choose to remain powerless.

The look of horror on his face in House of M #8, when he finds he cannot levitate a fork, tells me all I need to know in regard to how he feels about being a baseline.

--Syzygy

Look at it from HIS point of view

One second he is literaly the master of a World full of Mutants
A World that his own Daughter Gave him as a Gift.
Because of his Actions the World he dreamed of was not only obliterated by his Daughter, but it was made, to the best of his knowledge, Imposible for him to ever re-attain, and the hand full of mutants who are left will be comparitivly defensless because of what happend.

[Mr.Musgrave]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.


Really, this is what you get when you listen to fanboy whining. If the original Xorn story hadn't been needlessly retconned to shut the fanboys up, stories like this wouldn't happen. Fanboys are comics worst enemy.

[StarsAndGarters]

The Collective's explained.
Good interaction with SHIELD people.
Xorn's explained.
Magneto's back. (Does anybody really believe he's dead? I don't.)

Dunno about you guys, but I'm happy.

[Loestal]

The Collective's explained.
Good interaction with SHIELD people.
Xorn's explained.
Magneto's back. (Does anybody really believe he's dead? I don't.)

Dunno about you guys, but I'm happy.


How in the world does this explain Xorn? Xorn has been explained TWICE already, and supported by a story in X-men. I honestly am totally confused as to what happened. The energy was Xorn? What? makes no sense. This is what we know of Xorn, as per Marvel goes not Morrison.

Xorn was a REAL mutant. He was a REAL person. The Xorn we saw in Morrison's stuff was legit, he wasn't Magneto in disguise. This is proven by Xorn's brother that the X-men found in China. He says Xorn is his brother and they have similiar powers bla bla. That tells us there that Xorn was NOT Magneto despite Morrison's story.

Wanda then "turned" Xorn into a wierd twisted version of Magneto for whatever reason, possibly part of her revenge? That explains the strange actions of Magneto in Planet X. Ok, fine...cool it's lame but it's explained....fast forward and now, after HoM the Collective energy wants to use Magneto as a host, and this energy is Xorn!? what the hell, it's rediculous.

Why would Xorn want to do what he was saying he wanted? What would be his motivation, Xorn never acted this way at all (only after Morrison turned him into Magneto). He was a peaceful calm mutant. And another thing, why is it only Xorn that's talking? It was every damn mutant in the world's powers. Aside from being turned into a Magneto by Wanda...the two have NOTHING in common. Magneto didn't even know that he was being "impersonated", he mentioned this to Xavier in the Genoshan Excalibur. I just honestly can't figure it out, why the hell did they do this...they just opened a HUGE gaping wound Marvel tried so hard to close.

Edit: Something else, Xorn was DEAD! Why would his mind/conscience/powers be part of the Collective? He died years ago(months ago in Marvel's time). And even if it was his conscience...why would he act like that! GOD...it's so frustrating. It took them literally years to FINALLY explain the whole Xorneto thing...and now this,(sigh).

[Loestal]

Well, I've been a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers since issue #1. I've liked them all through issue #19.

Can't say the same for #20.

Why was it even necessary to bring Xorn into this? As I understand it, Xorn was actually a rather sensitive and pleasant mutant--albeit one with a star in his brain--until Scarlet Witch transmuted him into an insane Magneto clone. Later, Xorn, now "Xorneto", starts sucking Kick, and devastates New York City.

(I have a hard time believing only 5,000 people died in the Planet X NYC attack, but forget that.)

Finally, Xorneto kills Jean Grey, and gets his head cut off by Wolverine.

So, since Xorn/Xorneto died well before decimation, there's no real reason for his energies to be within the collective mutant energy cloud.

So where did he come from? It makes no sense to me.

This version of "Xorn" makes it seem as though he willingly impersonated Magneto, rather than against his will (Scarlet Witch).




EXACTLY!....sorry I didn't add this to my other post but I think this needs to be seen again as the blemish it really is. I like Bendis, but this is damn aweful.

[StarsAndGarters]

How in the world does this explain Xorn? Xorn has been explained TWICE already, and supported by a story in X-men. I honestly am totally confused as to what happened. The energy was Xorn? What? makes no sense. This is what we know of Xorn, as per Marvel goes not Morrison.

Xorn was a REAL mutant. He was a REAL person. The Xorn we saw in Morrison's stuff was legit, he wasn't Magneto in disguise. This is proven by Xorn's brother that the X-men found in China. He says Xorn is his brother and they have similiar powers bla bla. That tells us there that Xorn was NOT Magneto despite Morrison's story.

Wanda then "turned" Xorn into a wierd twisted version of Magneto for whatever reason, possibly part of her revenge? That explains the strange actions of Magneto in Planet X. Ok, fine...cool it's lame but it's explained....fast forward and now, after HoM the Collective energy wants to use Magneto as a host, and this energy is Xorn!? what the hell, it's rediculous.

Why would Xorn want to do what he was saying he wanted? What would be his motivation, Xorn never acted this way at all (only after Morrison turned him into Magneto). He was a peaceful calm mutant. And another thing, why is it only Xorn that's talking? It was every damn mutant in the world's powers. Aside from being turned into a Magneto by Wanda...the two have NOTHING in common. Magneto didn't even know that he was being "impersonated", he mentioned this to Xavier in the Genoshan Excalibur. I just honestly can't figure it out, why the hell did they do this...they just opened a HUGE gaping wound Marvel tried so hard to close.

Edit: Something else, Xorn was DEAD! Why would his mind/conscience/powers be part of the Collective? He died years ago(months ago in Marvel's time). And even if it was his conscience...why would he act like that! GOD...it's so frustrating. It took them literally years to FINALLY explain the whole Xorneto thing...and now this,(sigh).Okay, so maybe it's not explained very much, but I felt like it unravels part of it, that Xorn was clearly not Magneto and was impersonating him. Also, I think it makes it clear that Xorn was more than just a Chinese dude, something with a consciousness bigger than his body and grand schemes. I don't think that had anything to do with Wanda, never thought that and I don't think anybody claimed she did. His motives are now more convoluted, but they seem to put his actions in New X-Men in a different perspective that I kinda like. Everything else is pretty mysterious, but somehow, I'm okay with that. I know there's gaps, but they leave me wanting somebody to come along and write something to fill the void. And since we now know that Xorn's around in some form or another, we'll get the chance to have more filled in. That, to me, is good comics. Hook the reader and drop hints until you can give them a good payoff.

Of course my whole point of view falls apart if you figure the payoff will end up sucking, but a man can dream! :p

[sherlockbones]

I haven´t gone through the whole thread, I have some questions.
Does this issue make it canon that Magneto´s real name is Erik Lehnsherr?
If so it should be open to debate if Magneto is a jewish character. I remember the discussion on this board about the matter and the argumentation was that someone called "Lehnsherr" can´t be jewish, which was negated by the fact that "Lehnsherr" was a fake ID, so the pro being jewish arguments were stronger. has that changed with this issue?

[Syzygy]

Look at it from HIS point of view

One second he is literaly the master of a World full of Mutants
A World that his own Daughter Gave him as a Gift.
Because of his Actions the World he dreamed of was not only obliterated by his Daughter, but it was made, to the best of his knowledge, Imposible for him to ever re-attain, and the hand full of mutants who are left will be comparitivly defensless because of what happend.

Sorry, I just disagree. I think he's too proud to ever allow himself to remain a baseline.

[Loestal]

I haven´t gone through the whole thread, I have some questions.
Does this issue make it canon that Magneto´s real name is Erik Lehnsherr?
If so it should be open to debate if Magneto is a jewish character. I remember the discussion on this board about the matter and the argumentation was that someone called "Lehnsherr" can´t be jewish, which was negated by the fact that "Lehnsherr" was a fake ID, so the pro being jewish arguments were stronger. has that changed with this issue?


Well...I don't know, that's what he called himself..but all things considered comming from this issue...I wouldn't put to much faith in it. This single issue might be it for me. It was bad on so many damn levels, and I have rather enjoyed the series thus far. I mean alot was wrong.

Vision appearing out of nowhere
Xorneto
Art was chaotic
Ending was aweful, very cartoony/scooby doo. "Oops, the chopper blew up..and what OH MY, no sign of Magneto anywhere. Well that auto matically means he's alive because this is a comic book and we almost came right out and said that"

[Sandy Hausler]

Well...I don't know, that's what he called himself..but all things considered comming from this issue...I wouldn't put to much faith in it. This single issue might be it for me. It was bad on so many damn levels, and I have rather enjoyed the series thus far. I mean alot was wrong.

Vision appearing out of nowhere
Xorneto
Art was chaotic
Ending was aweful, very cartoony/scooby doo. "Oops, the chopper blew up..and what OH MY, no sign of Magneto anywhere. Well that auto matically means he's alive because this is a comic book and we almost came right out and said that"

The Vision didn't appear out of nowhere. I believe he was in last issue.

Sandy Hausler

[unkiedev]

Sorry, I don't buy that excuse entirely. Sure, it would be great if editors at Marvel did their jobs again, checked facts, and asserted more control over writers. I can't explain why they don't anymore. Are the assistant editors getting lazy? Does Tom Brevoort have too many titles under his editorial umbrella? Are they afraid that if they appear too stifling then Bendis will jump ship and sign an exclusive with DC? I can't say with any certainty.

But I do know that if I were a professional getting paid good money to turn in a work product and my supervisor wasn't doing a very good job at checking my work, then I'd take it upon myself to research and check my own work and make sure it was up to standards and free from errors. I think the same thing applies here. Writers need to take the initiative and operate as if their scripts are going directly to the public, without an editor's proofreading
look, I'm an avid comic book reader. The first I heard that Erik Leshner wasn't his real name was when you posted it. What is his name, then? I've been reading comics for years, and I can't know every last little piece of continuity. Bendis's job is to turn in a good story, not to know that in x-men #356 or something it was retconned Mageto's name is actually "Steve" or "Buck" or whatever. That's the Editors job.

At any rate: Everybody seems to have a beef against Magneto. Shield wants to arrest him, the Avengers are just trying to take him out without talking to him. He's been keeping his nose clean lately. House of M wasn't his fault, it was Pietros, Magneto was just the fall guy. Poor Maggie.

[Sean Whitmore]

look, I'm an avid comic book reader. The first I heard that Erik Leshner wasn't his real name was when you posted it. What is his name, then? I've been reading comics for years, and I can't know every last little piece of continuity. Bendis's job is to turn in a good story, not to know that in x-men #356 or something it was retconned Mageto's name is actually "Steve" or "Buck" or whatever.


Even if it was the writer's fault, it still wouldn't be Bendis' fault. EVERY writer in the past however many years since that story who's mentioned Magneto's name has called him Erik Lensherr.

It's not that everybody is forgetting that one Joe Kellly story from eight years ago, it's that they're purposely ignoring it. Because without Kelly to do anything with it, it's a subplot nobody else wanted to bother with and an absolutely pointless little bit of trivia.


SEAN

[xmanson]

Really, this is what you get when you listen to fanboy whining. If the original Xorn story hadn't been needlessly retconned to shut the fanboys up, stories like this wouldn't happen. Fanboys are comics worst enemy.


If decent writing was involved, stories like this wouldn't happen.

You coulkd have the same story, no change at all, and just remove the Xorn dialogue. But some braindead decided to add those words. The Xorn story is done and dealt with. bendis did nothing to solve anythinh in any of his books, I really don't see the point of mentioning it now.

[Tony Starkz]

Loved it.Best NA arc to date.

[jmc247]

I was not happy that everyone in this issue seemed to be pissing on Magneto.

[old_schoola]

Its bendis trying to solve problems he started.

[mandog]

For me this is the weakest of all of the New Avengers issues thus far.

[Sean Whitmore]

I was not happy that everyone in this issue seemed to be pissing on Magneto.


Because he's such a nice guy? :)


SEAN

[Jake V]

Its bendis trying to solve problems he started.
Bendis wrote Planet X? Bendis brought Magneto back from the dead? Bendis created a second Xorn?

Bendis created none of these "problems" yet fixed them anyway.

[ultramandingo]

let see.......dinosuars........ninjas .....zombies.. .....that means next up its either pirates or monkeys on bendis dart board of dumb story ideas..... ooh what about monkey pirates !cool!

[Red State Cap]

let see.......dinosuars........ninjas .....zombies.. .....that means next up its either pirates or monkeys on bendis dart board of dumb story ideas..... ooh what about monkey pirates !cool!
Heh!
You forgot "Man-suit Ronin" in what might have been the most idiotic reveal of all time.

RSC

[Bobster777]

For me this is the weakest of all of the New Avengers issues thus far.

Yeah, it started off so good, but then kind of sputtered off. Eh, it's cool. Can't have great issues all the time.

[DoubleShot]

So the climax of this storyline is pulling out a story from another title from two or three years ago that's already been thoroughly retconned and kicking its corpse a few more times? Swell.

This is what you get when you say you want tighter continuity, people.

This is what you get.

And with tighter continuity the original story wouldn't have happened the way it did.

[kane]

Heh!
You forgot "Man-suit Ronin" in what might have been the most idiotic reveal of all time.

RSC

btw. what happened to Ronin. He, err, she disappeared in comic limbo?

[Jake V]

btw. what happened to Ronin. He, err, she disappeared in comic limbo?
Stayed in Japan to fight the Hand.

[O'Grady]

Bendis wrote Planet X? Bendis brought Magneto back from the dead? Bendis created a second Xorn?

Bendis created none of these "problems" yet fixed them anyway.


Bendis wrote House of M; requiring Magneto to have survived Planet X. the crossover also interrupted Chris Claremont's use of the character in Excalibur. but who cares, right?

[Jake V]

Bendis wrote House of M; requiring Magneto to have survived Planet X. the crossover also interrupted Chris Claremont's use of the character in Excalibur. but who cares, right?
Claremont brought Magneto back long before House of M, and I don't think it was a favor to Bendis.

And yes, who cares about that volume of Excalibur?

[Hi-Fi]

Meh...this was ok. I didn't care much about this arc anyway. Why can't all the Avengers issues be like the Annual?

[Will.S]

let see.......dinosuars........ninjas .....zombies.. .....that means next up its either pirates or monkeys on bendis dart board of dumb story ideas..... ooh what about monkey pirates !cool!
Hey at least it's diverse fodder instead of Hydra/Kree/A.I.M flunkies all the time.

[maniacmatt]

i was quite disappointed with this issue. what's the point of bringing the whole Xorn thing back in? Magneto has powers again? it's like Bendis writes Disassembled to bring about HoM, and then writes NA to "undo" HoM. what's the point.
How'd he undo it? All the muties are still powerless.
Was I the only one who thought it was gonna be Onslaught for a sec there? Magneto and Prof X both had their powers in the Collective.

[tjarvis]

How'd he undo it? All the muties are still powerless.
Was I the only one who thought it was gonna be Onslaught for a sec there? Magneto and Prof X both had their powers in the Collective.

You actually are on to something there, as Onslaught is an entity that is coming back in a mini by Loeb/Liefield in the future.

[Will.S]

You actually are on to something there, as Onslaught is an entity that is coming back in a mini by Loeb/Liefield in the future.
Ugh it's too bad it's already tainted by the Liefeld art.

[Bobster777]

You actually are on to something there, as Onslaught is an entity that is coming back in a mini by Loeb/Liefield in the future.

I wonder how the heck that's going to work. I'm still skeptical as to whether he'll be back, or it will be just some kind of flashback scenario.

[Soundrave]

look, I'm an avid comic book reader. The first I heard that Erik Leshner wasn't his real name was when you posted it. What is his name, then? I've been reading comics for years, and I can't know every last little piece of continuity. Bendis's job is to turn in a good story, not to know that in x-men #356 or something it was retconned Mageto's name is actually "Steve" or "Buck" or whatever. That's the Editors job.


Well, I can't help that you didn't know that Lensherr was only an alias he used. I knew it and I don't even consider myself an X-fan. I guess I picked it up from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, a resource that should be on the desk of every Marvel editor and writer. I don't think your ignorance of the fact should justify Bendis' ignorance of the fact anyway. And the Magneto thing isn't such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, it's just one example out of many where Bendis got facts wrong.

So your argument that asking Bendis to research his stories is unreasonable still doesn't convince me. He doesn't need to search through 40+ years of comics to double-check something, all he needs to do is look in a Handbook. The information is all there, listed alphabetically by character. Other writers do it, I don't see why Bendis can't. Heck, the I believe the Handbook writers even maintain the online marvel.com wiki, so Bendis only needs to click on the Magneto bio to find out!

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, I can't help that you didn't know that Lensherr was only an alias he used.


It isn't. It's his name. Consider it a retcon, if you must.


SEAN

[DoctorDoom]

Hey I just realized... this is the second time (or first depending on continuity) shield has arrested someone in a coma state or coming out of a coma state. Nice.

[Bobster777]

Well, I can't help that you didn't know that Lensherr was only an alias he used. I knew it and I don't even consider myself an X-fan. I guess I picked it up from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, a resource that should be on the desk of every Marvel editor and writer. I don't think your ignorance of the fact should justify Bendis' ignorance of the fact anyway. And the Magneto thing isn't such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, it's just one example out of many where Bendis got facts wrong.

So your argument that asking Bendis to research his stories is unreasonable still doesn't convince me. He doesn't need to search through 40+ years of comics to double-check something, all he needs to do is look in a Handbook. The information is all there, listed alphabetically by character. Other writers do it, I don't see why Bendis can't. Heck, the I believe the Handbook writers even maintain the online marvel.com wiki, so Bendis only needs to click on the Magneto bio to find out!

Considering that Mags has been going by that name for so long, I think he distinguishes himself as Erik now. He's never really gone by anything else. Also, all the closest people in his life knows him by that name.

[Blight]

Who was the first person SHIELD arrested in a coma state?

Also it isn't surprising that Magneto be in New Avengers. I mean as said he has fought them as much as the X-Men. He also fought them in:

Magneto: Dark Seduction (The UN sent the Avengers in to support the Genoshans who were revolting against Magneto, they lost when Magneto got his powers back)

Speaking of which, I'm not shocked that Magneto is doing this. After all, considering Excalibur and House of M, Magneto wouldn't want his powers back. He just wants to keep hurting himself. Just look in either book the man was on a death wish almost. Why Prof. X tried to give him some purpose and alas that purpose in saving Wanda brought him into House of M.

This wasn't the first time he lost his powers, after all in the above mini-series all he could do was use Polaris's. He was literally almost in the state he was post House of M. The only reason why he chose to use the machines of the Dark Beast who in effect were Mr. Sinister's machines was because he was on the verge of his dream. He wanted to see it through and not even his children were going to stop him.

Now Post-House of M, Magneto is beaten and isn't even pursuing any options of restoring his mutant powers. Why? Because E for Extinction and House of M have crushed him mentally. He suffered the two biggest losses in his life back to back. He has no purpose in Post-HoM. This is the lowest point of his life.

His children hate him. He's lost his powers. He doesn't know if his best friend is alive or dead. The mutants who were helping him rebuild Genosha lost their powers thus he's met with failure on that front again. Now merely instead of rebuilding Genosha it's survial. The world now clearly puts him next to Hitler with what he "did" in Planet X. And worse, he's just seen his dream come true, yet had to tear it down by attacking his own children who gave it to him.

Now just when things just couldn't get any worse, the other greatest fear comes back to haunt him. Xorneto, a man who used his name and killed 5,000 people including Jean Grey knocks on the door and wants not only to give him his mutant powers but restart what he finished.

Is it any wonder Magneto would act as he did in NA #20? Still, I don't think he blew up the helicopter for two reasons.

1.) What purpose would he have to gain for escaping? Even with his powers, he's still got nothing. The world thinks him now more monster than man. His dream is still dead. Plus the panel with him out still suggests he was in no condition to do anything. Still, he was wearing his helmet which could have stopped most of the physic damage that was thrown at him.


2.) Not only could Hill have set up this little show, but guess who else was in the helicopter. Michael aka the Collective. Could he be using his mutant powers in setting Magneto and himself free? What powers did he retain? In such a confused state do you really think he go with SHIELD when a dude who you know can help you teach you about your powers is merely a few inches away. Still the possiblity it wasn't him since he have to know what powers to wield and it didn't appear he knew.

Heck Magneto and Michael could have been freed by Sentry as per Capt. America's orders. But I doubt it.

[Sean Whitmore]

Who was the first person SHIELD arrested in a coma state?


I assume Speedball is the other.


SEAN

[Syzygy]

Well, I can't help that you didn't know that Lensherr was only an alias he used. I knew it and I don't even consider myself an X-fan. I guess I picked it up from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, a resource that should be on the desk of every Marvel editor and writer. I don't think your ignorance of the fact should justify Bendis' ignorance of the fact anyway. And the Magneto thing isn't such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, it's just one example out of many where Bendis got facts wrong.

So your argument that asking Bendis to research his stories is unreasonable still doesn't convince me. He doesn't need to search through 40+ years of comics to double-check something, all he needs to do is look in a Handbook. The information is all there, listed alphabetically by character. Other writers do it, I don't see why Bendis can't. Heck, the I believe the Handbook writers even maintain the online marvel.com wiki, so Bendis only needs to click on the Magneto bio to find out!

What's the big deal with Maggie's human name? Obviously, the one he wants people to swallow is Erik Lensherr, so that's the one he used in his memoirs. Why does everybody expect Maggie's memoir is going to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

There are pleny of less than truthful memoirs out there. No reason why Maggie's should be any different.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Syzygy]

After all, considering Excalibur and House of M, Magneto wouldn't want his powers back. He just wants to keep hurting himself. Just look in either book the man was on a death wish almost. Why Prof. X tried to give him some purpose and alas that purpose in saving Wanda brought him into House of M.

Now Post-House of M, Magneto is beaten and isn't even pursuing any options of restoring his mutant powers. Why? Because E for Extinction and House of M have crushed him mentally. He suffered the two biggest losses in his life back to back. He has no purpose in Post-HoM. This is the lowest point of his life.


Magneto is well known for regaining his sense of purpose after various crushing defeats. He's many things, but he's never been a quitter.

You or I might be broken by such things, but Mags of a different sort.

[Blight]

Magneto is well known for regaining his sense of purpose after various crushing defeats. He's many things, but he's never been a quitter.

You or I might be broken by such things, but Mags of a different sort.


True, and no doubt eventually he'll find his purpose in this new world, but this is the longest length of time Magneto has gone without a sense of purpose or direction.

Though the X-Men aren't helping matters when they acted like dicks at the end of House of M or even help give rations to the former mutants in Genosha. It should be interesting regardless what Magneto will do next if in fact he has his powers back.

[O'Grady]

Considering that Mags has been going by that name for so long, I think he distinguishes himself as Erik now. He's never really gone by anything else. Also, all the closest people in his life knows him by that name.


i thought that his closest friends referred to him as 'Magnus.'

[Red Lotus]

Bendis wrote House of M; requiring Magneto to have survived Planet X. the crossover also interrupted Chris Claremont's use of the character in Excalibur. but who cares, right?


Magneto returned in the first issue of Excalibur. Claremont brought him back the very next issue after Morrison killed him in Planet X. One of the biggest reason for House of M was Joe wanted to get rid of a lot of unused mutants and to fix the fact that in Morrison run mutants grew to be in the 16-40mill range and that there were no long that small group of outsiders.

Marvel use Bendis to fix everything that they let Morrison mess up.

[Bobster777]

True, and no doubt eventually he'll find his purpose in this new world, but this is the longest length of time Magneto has gone without a sense of purpose or direction.

Though the X-Men aren't helping matters when they acted like dicks at the end of House of M or even help give rations to the former mutants in Genosha. It should be interesting regardless what Magneto will do next if in fact he has his powers back.

Yeah, I really didn't like how they acted either. It wasn't like Magneto liked what happened. If anything, Mags was going to let the Avengers and the X-men do whatever was needed.

[Bobster777]

Magneto returned in the first issue of Excalibur. Claremont brought him back the very next issue after Morrison killed him in Planet X. One of the biggest reason for House of M was Joe wanted to get rid of a lot of unused mutants and to fix the fact that in Morrison run mutants grew to be in the 16-40mill range and that there were no long that small group of outsiders.

Marvel use Bendis to fix everything that they let Morrison mess up.

I'm not sure if the population ever was over 20. After all the Genoshan mutants were killed by Cassie, I think the number was down to just a few millions. The thing is, I don't think there was anything messed up or needed to be fixed. I feel like they liked what Morrison did or they would have never let him write the story. It's just the next writers decided to go another way.

[Red State Cap]

Marvel use Bendis to fix everything that they let Morrison mess up.
So who does Marvel call on to fix everything they let Bendis mess up? :)

RSC

[O'Grady]

So who does Marvel call on to fix everything they let Bendis mess up? :)

RSC


Heinberg and Mark Millar?

[Red Lotus]

I'm not sure if the population ever was over 20. After all the Genoshan mutants were killed by Cassie, I think the number was down to just a few millions. The thing is, I don't think there was anything messed up or needed to be fixed. I feel like they liked what Morrison did or they would have never let him write the story. It's just the next writers decided to go another way.

My numbers may be off. But I thought that 16mill was kill in that attack and they said that was half.

I dont think they needed to fix anything Morrison did, but when Magneto comes back almost the very next issue after he is killed then that tells me Marvel wanted to fix that as fast as they could. And Joe said his self that he didn't like that fact that there was so many mutants in the Marvel u and that he wanted to get rid of alot of them and thats why they had House Of M.

[Bobster777]

My numbers may be off. But I thought that 16mill was kill in that attack and they said that was half.

I dont think they needed to fix anything Morrison did, but when Magneto comes back almost the very next issue after he is killed then that tells me Marvel wanted to fix that as fast as they could. And Joe said his self that he didn't like that fact that there was so many mutants in the Marvel u and that he wanted to get rid of alot of them and thats why they had House Of M.

Ha ha, that's why i hate it when they don't give atleast estimated numbers. Things get confusing that way. I'll read my old issues and try to get a number.

[Blight]

Magneto returned in the first issue of Excalibur. Claremont brought him back the very next issue after Morrison killed him in Planet X. One of the biggest reason for House of M was Joe wanted to get rid of a lot of unused mutants and to fix the fact that in Morrison run mutants grew to be in the 16-40mill range and that there were no long that small group of outsiders.

Marvel use Bendis to fix everything that they let Morrison mess up.


Not really, Claremont brought back Magneto after a month or two wait. There was that whole clean up arc that Chuck Austen wrote were Lorna, Pietro, Wanda, Logan, Toad, Nick Fury, and Charles had a funeral in Genosha for Magneto.

Nah he's not Mysterio (popping up a week after his death), but he's close :p

[algertman]

Marvel use Bendis to fix everything that they let Morrison mess up.


Sure did. They let Bendis, and Claremont, ruin good charecters and development Morrison did. Now who are they gopnna use to actually clean up the mess Bendis is leaving in his path of destruction?

[DDM]

Not really, Claremont brought back Magneto after a month or two wait. There was that whole clean up arc that Chuck Austen wrote were Lorna, Pietro, Wanda, Logan, Toad, Nick Fury, and Charles had a funeral in Genosha for Magneto.

Nah he's not Mysterio (popping up a week after his death), but he's close :p

Actually, the Marvel editors brought back Magneto for Excalibur. Chris Claremont was following orders from them to incorporate Magneto into the book.

[Siddon]

Actually, the Marvel editors brought back Magneto for Excalibur. Chris Claremont was following orders from them to incorporate Magneto into the book.


Poor Chris Claremont being forced to write Magneto by the mean bully editors. Normally writers and editors come to an agreement after the writer makes his pitch. Its not like 80% of the titles that came out of X-men Reload flopped while 80% of the titles to come out of AD where monster successes.

couldn't be that

[The Shadow]

Holy crap... I go away for a weekend wedding (after grabbing my comics on thursday) and this thread has 200 posts and is 14 pages long!

Love Bendis or hate him he sure does get people talking.

Personally I liked the issue (though Deodato's art seemed either rushed or sloppy). I'm curious to see what happens next... and that's always the mark of a good comic.

[The Fury]

Nice art, good story. Confusing end.

Obviously Mags is still alive...like he ever dies.

But this Xorn thing is confusing. Xorn (one of them or both) were in control of the Collective mutant energies which are now in the sun (can't be destroyed obviously).

A few bits don't make sense but I enjoyed it.

One added thought,

It's about Marvel's USA. Maybe really this deserves it's own thread but still. Is it me or is USA in Marvel doing too much to make itself hated? Or at least the president is.

the Organisation known as O.N.E. not only stole another countries prize possession and but illegally stole them while on another country (Genosha). In this issue the US president thought that dropping a bomb on the remains of Genosha was a good idea, this is Genosha, the still registered country and home to many people still. US Pres also seems to be companding SHIELD alot even though SHIELD is UN controlled. And there's the Civil War thing but we know that.

It's a bit much really for one country to do.

[Red Lotus]

Sure did. They let Bendis, and Claremont, ruin good charecters and development Morrison did. Now who are they gopnna use to actually clean up the mess Bendis is leaving in his path of destruction?


I cant disagree. I seem to be one of the few who thought Morrison run on the X-men was one of the best.

But as for Bendis and Claremont you cant really blame them for this. Marvel went to both of them and told them hey we need a story to fix this problem and thats what they both tried to do. If you want you can even throw Milligan in there. Do you really think he wanted to bring Xorn back. They told him to bring Xorn back. Marvel have went out of their way to retcon a lot of the stuff Morrison did.

[Sandy Hausler]

even though SHIELD is UN controlled.

When did SHIELD become UN controlled?

Sandy Hausler

[Red State Cap]

When did SHIELD become UN controlled?
Sandy Hausler
I believe it was around 1989 after Nick Fury vs. SHIELD.

RSC

[Sandy Hausler]

I believe it was around 1989 after Nick Fury vs. SHIELD.

RSC

Interesting that the US would give up its prime espionage organization. And also interesting that, until recently, only an American ran the organization, and, as far as I can see, the body at no major non-US presence, at least in the upper echelons.

Sandy Hausler

[Bobster777]

Nice art, good story. Confusing end.

Obviously Mags is still alive...like he ever dies.

But this Xorn thing is confusing. Xorn (one of them or both) were in control of the Collective mutant energies which are now in the sun (can't be destroyed obviously).

A few bits don't make sense but I enjoyed it.

One added thought,

It's about Marvel's USA. Maybe really this deserves it's own thread but still. Is it me or is USA in Marvel doing too much to make itself hated? Or at least the president is.

the Organisation known as O.N.E. not only stole another countries prize possession and but illegally stole them while on another country (Genosha). In this issue the US president thought that dropping a bomb on the remains of Genosha was a good idea, this is Genosha, the still registered country and home to many people still. US Pres also seems to be companding SHIELD alot even though SHIELD is UN controlled. And there's the Civil War thing but we know that.

It's a bit much really for one country to do.

About bombing Genosha, the president did give the last say so to Maria Hill. All the president knew was there was some unstopable force at Genosha that has already killed many people. So, I don't think his orders were out of line.

[Den]

Finally got mine in the mail today...

I'm disapointed. I'm afraid this issue didn't do a thing for me. I know very little about Xorn's history, having missed out most X-Men related stories in the last decade or so so perhaps my ignorance means I'm not appreciating this as I should... but the issue just had a lot of things that I had trouble buying.

Cap ordering a killing stroke on someone? Maybe Cap knew it wouldn't kill him, but while I know Cap can and will kill when he has to it shouldn't be his first recourse and how he'd know is a mystery to say the least.

The president so eager to nuke, jokes about button happy presidents aside, also just didn't seem to fit.

and lastly, once again, the New Avengers need help to deal with the threat. I know that this time, it was at Cap's request, but it's very sad how it seems 9 times out of ten, the New Avengers can't do ANYTHING without calling for outside assistance. If it isn't SHIELD, it's the White Queen, and even before New Avengers Dr. Strange sat around in Disassembled telling the demoralized Avengers what idiots they were. Bendis seems to have difficulty letting the New Avengers actually triumph on their own, and that's one of the problems I really have with this series. Perhaps I'm exagerating, but not by much.

And it's a shame, because I do like the dialogue, and the characters themselves. I was delighted to see Jessica Drew back in the Spider Woman threads again. I thought Spider-Man on the Avengers was a logical progression given his many years as one of the more experienced heroes in the MU and was willing to give it a shot. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well Luke Cage seems to mesh on the team.

But the New Avengers are now heading towards their own disassembling, and I fear that when I tell someone about them and they ask me 'Well, what did this incarnation of the Avengers achieve on their own?' I'm going to have to say, "You know, not a #$#$ thing."

And that just bites.

The book doesn't suck, but it could be so much more.... or maybe I need to not skimp on my caffiene today, take your pick.

[We R. Venom]

Sure did. They let Bendis, and Claremont, ruin good charecters and development Morrison did. Now who are they gopnna use to actually clean up the mess Bendis is leaving in his path of destruction?

Just wondering who you think Bendis has ruined? I cant think of anyone he has for me.

[Loestal]

Alright, after reading an interview with Joe Q., NA #20 makes a little sense. He elaborates a little on the subject, but it's still shady as hell.

In a nutshell from what I can gather
1: Xorn was NOT Magneto in disguise
2: Xorn started taking Kick which allowed him to be manipulated by Sublime and made him go a little out of his mind.
3: Xorn wanted to unite the mutant population with a powerful icon of mutant brotherhood. He chose Magneto to use has this figurehead. The more and more into the Magneto roll he got..the more confused/insane he became, hence the outragous cartoony over the top Magneto charicterization.
Now this is where it starts to get shaky.
4: Xorn dies, but his "essense" or something survives. Possibly thru Sublime or Wanda, I'm not entirely sure.
5: After HoM, Xorn was merged with the rest of the mutant powers in the world and launched into space. Apparently Xorn's powers/mind/personality are all linked. So therefore, when he merged he was the only "mind" within the collective he was able to control or manipulate it becoming the Collective.
6: The Collective finds a possible host for itself to carry itself to Magneto so that Xorn can accomplish his goal he started in Planet X. Only using the REAL Magneto instead of his fake ass to spear head his mutant uniting process.
7: He inhabits Magneto, speaking to him of a "leader". And that they need him bla bla. Magneto rejects Xorn(who is in control of the Collective).
8: That SHIELD chic makes a tremor in Magneto's head, the Collective escapes, goes into Marvel and yea...you read it.

So take it or leave it, that is apparently Marvel's explination of NA #20. I just broke it down and elaborated a little more. The only thing that really doesn't make alot of sense is..where does Wanda fit into this. One of the handbooks said it was her, but oh well.

To read Joe Q's statement follow the following link.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html

[Will.S]

Alright, after reading an interview with Joe Q., NA #20 makes a little sense. He elaborates a little on the subject, but it's still shady as hell.

In a nutshell from what I can gather
1: Xorn was NOT Magneto in disguise
2: Xorn started taking Kick which allowed him to be manipulated by Sublime and made him go a little out of his mind.
3: Xorn wanted to unite the mutant population with a powerful icon of mutant brotherhood. He chose Magneto to use has this figurehead. The more and more into the Magneto roll he got..the more confused/insane he became, hence the outragous cartoony over the top Magneto charicterization.
Now this is where it starts to get shaky.
4: Xorn dies, but his "essense" or something survives. Possibly thru Sublime or Wanda, I'm not entirely sure.
5: After HoM, Xorn was merged with the rest of the mutant powers in the world and launched into space. Apparently Xorn's powers/mind/personality are all linked. So therefore, when he merged he was the only "mind" within the collective he was able to control or manipulate it becoming the Collective.
6: The Collective finds a possible host for itself to carry itself to Magneto so that Xorn can accomplish his goal he started in Planet X. Only using the REAL Magneto instead of his fake ass to spear head his mutant uniting process.
7: He inhabits Magneto, speaking to him of a "leader". And that they need him bla bla. Magneto rejects Xorn(who is in control of the Collective).
8: That SHIELD chic makes a tremor in Magneto's head, the Collective escapes, goes into Marvel and yea...you read it.

So take it or leave it, that is apparently Marvel's explination of NA #20. I just broke it down and elaborated a little more. The only thing that really doesn't make alot of sense is..where does Wanda fit into this. One of the handbooks said it was her, but oh well.

To read Joe Q's statement follow the following link.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html
Makes enough sense, I'm going with this.

[Bobster777]

Alright, after reading an interview with Joe Q., NA #20 makes a little sense. He elaborates a little on the subject, but it's still shady as hell.

In a nutshell from what I can gather
1: Xorn was NOT Magneto in disguise
2: Xorn started taking Kick which allowed him to be manipulated by Sublime and made him go a little out of his mind.
3: Xorn wanted to unite the mutant population with a powerful icon of mutant brotherhood. He chose Magneto to use has this figurehead. The more and more into the Magneto roll he got..the more confused/insane he became, hence the outragous cartoony over the top Magneto charicterization.
Now this is where it starts to get shaky.
4: Xorn dies, but his "essense" or something survives. Possibly thru Sublime or Wanda, I'm not entirely sure.
5: After HoM, Xorn was merged with the rest of the mutant powers in the world and launched into space. Apparently Xorn's powers/mind/personality are all linked. So therefore, when he merged he was the only "mind" within the collective he was able to control or manipulate it becoming the Collective.
6: The Collective finds a possible host for itself to carry itself to Magneto so that Xorn can accomplish his goal he started in Planet X. Only using the REAL Magneto instead of his fake ass to spear head his mutant uniting process.
7: He inhabits Magneto, speaking to him of a "leader". And that they need him bla bla. Magneto rejects Xorn(who is in control of the Collective).
8: That SHIELD chic makes a tremor in Magneto's head, the Collective escapes, goes into Marvel and yea...you read it.

So take it or leave it, that is apparently Marvel's explination of NA #20. I just broke it down and elaborated a little more. The only thing that really doesn't make alot of sense is..where does Wanda fit into this. One of the handbooks said it was her, but oh well.

To read Joe Q's statement follow the following link.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html

ha ha, okay, I can live with that. See, all this confusion could have been avoided if they just wrote all that at the end of the issue. :D

[The Fury]

About bombing Genosha, the president did give the last say so to Maria Hill. All the president knew was there was some unstopable force at Genosha that has already killed many people. So, I don't think his orders were out of line.
No matter how you look at it it's the American President urging the SHIELD director to drop a bomb on soil that is not in his concern.

Final decision may have been up to Hill and she chose not to, but he can't tell her to do that.

[Be Stiff]

Some thoughts (http://ditkoinferno.blogspot.com/2006/06/joe-quesada-master-of-iron_115125398654951751.html)

[DDM]

Alright, after reading an interview with Joe Q., NA #20 makes a little sense. He elaborates a little on the subject, but it's still shady as hell.

In a nutshell from what I can gather
1: Xorn was NOT Magneto in disguise
2: Xorn started taking Kick which allowed him to be manipulated by Sublime and made him go a little out of his mind.
3: Xorn wanted to unite the mutant population with a powerful icon of mutant brotherhood. He chose Magneto to use has this figurehead. The more and more into the Magneto roll he got..the more confused/insane he became, hence the outragous cartoony over the top Magneto charicterization.
Now this is where it starts to get shaky.
4: Xorn dies, but his "essense" or something survives. Possibly thru Sublime or Wanda, I'm not entirely sure.
5: After HoM, Xorn was merged with the rest of the mutant powers in the world and launched into space. Apparently Xorn's powers/mind/personality are all linked. So therefore, when he merged he was the only "mind" within the collective he was able to control or manipulate it becoming the Collective.
6: The Collective finds a possible host for itself to carry itself to Magneto so that Xorn can accomplish his goal he started in Planet X. Only using the REAL Magneto instead of his fake ass to spear head his mutant uniting process.
7: He inhabits Magneto, speaking to him of a "leader". And that they need him bla bla. Magneto rejects Xorn(who is in control of the Collective).
8: That SHIELD chic makes a tremor in Magneto's head, the Collective escapes, goes into Marvel and yea...you read it.

So take it or leave it, that is apparently Marvel's explination of NA #20. I just broke it down and elaborated a little more. The only thing that really doesn't make alot of sense is..where does Wanda fit into this. One of the handbooks said it was her, but oh well.

To read Joe Q's statement follow the following link.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html


If Brian Michael Bendis was doing his job properly, you wouldn't need Quesada's explaination to sort things out.

[Be Stiff]

DDM, are you saying this story needs more mind-control and slavery tropes

[Mr.Musgrave]

If Brian Michael Bendis was doing his job properly, you wouldn't need Quesada's explaination to sort things out.


If fanboys wouldn't throw hissy fits about the original story (which had nothing wrong with it unless you're an utter fanboy) Bendis wouldn't have had to try and clean it up and Joe Q. wouldn't have had to give an explaination of the clean up.

[algertman]

If fanboys wouldn't throw hissy fits about the original story (which had nothing wrong with it unless you're an utter fanboy) Bendis wouldn't have had to try and clean it up and Joe Q. wouldn't have had to give an explaination of the clean up.


And if the MARVEL writers and Editors would have taken thier time to come up with a way of explaining Xorn rather then throwing everything to the wall and seeing what sticks people wouldn't be complaining.

[Mr.Musgrave]

And if the MARVEL writers and Editors would have taken thier time to come up with a way of explaining Xorn rather then throwing everything to the wall and seeing what sticks people wouldn't be complaining.


Xorn was Magneto in disguise. Problem solved.

And I have to say, you'd have to be friggin' blind to not see that Xorn was Magneto considering all of his "healing powers" were based off of manipulating metal things.

Fanboys.:rolleyes:

[DDM]

And if the MARVEL writers and Editors would have taken thier time to come up with a way of explaining Xorn rather then throwing everything to the wall and seeing what sticks people wouldn't be complaining.

Exactly. Marvel has given the readers numerous explainations for Xorn. Which one is the truth? I just don't know anymore.

[The Shadow]

Exactly. Marvel has given the readers numerous explainations for Xorn. Which one is the truth? I just don't know anymore.
*cough*DoesItReallyMatter?*cough*

[O'Grady]

Xorn was Magneto in disguise. Problem solved.

And I have to say, you'd have to be friggin' blind to not see that Xorn was Magneto considering all of his "healing powers" were based off of manipulating metal things.

Fanboys.:rolleyes:

you seem to like that word. anyways...you'd have to be friggin dense not to realize that energy-manipulation and control over metals isn't exclusive to one mutant.

If fanboys wouldn't throw hissy fits about the original story (which had nothing wrong with it unless you're an utter fanboy) Bendis wouldn't have had to try and clean it up and Joe Q. wouldn't have had to give an explaination of the clean up.

yeah, i'm sure that Marvel took whining into consideration when they formulated their retcon. i'm sure it had nothing to do with the marketability of the character. :rolleyes:

[DDM]

*cough*DoesItReallyMatter?*cough*

Yes, it matters considering Bendis used a whole comic book to explain Xorn. I know Bendis must be in knots to actually use once comic to explain something without stretching the story out into a 6 or 12 issue arc of repetative jargon.

[astronato]

I just got into comics last year after a long lapse. I had no idea who Xorn was while reading this issue. I thought it was ok but sorta lackluster like the Echo reveal.

I don't know much about Mr Bendis's stuff but I did really enjoy his Spiderwoman:Origin series. But New Avengers has only been so so this far.

I buy the book because mostly because I dig the team lineup and I get the feeling that is about to change due to Civil War.

Also, I'm looking forward to Sentry going banana's and becoming an Avengers arch villain. Could be good.

[Mr.Musgrave]

you seem to like that word. anyways...you'd have to be friggin dense not to realize that energy-manipulation and control over metals isn't exclusive to one mutant.

The entire storyline was based around the different ideas of Xavier and Magneto. It doesn't take a rocket scientist.... :rolleyes:


yeah, i'm sure that Marvel took whining into consideration when they formulated their retcon. i'm sure it had nothing to do with the marketability of the character. :rolleyes:


Marketability of who? Magneto? Yeah, there's something to worry about. The storyline sure put the racist and mass-murdering Magneto in a bad light. :rolleyes:

[Syzygy]

Xorn was Magneto in disguise. Problem solved.



This would've been the best explanation...had they left it alone.

(As for Magneto's erratic behavior while impersonating Xorn, Maggie's power has been known to wax and wane in the past...perhaps he was in a wanning period and turned to "Kick" in the hopes of amping up. Then he goes insane with his "reversing the Earth's poles" gambit.)

Resurrecting him could have been done by any number of means. For example, Mr. Sinister's technology easily resurrects the Marauders.

Marvel didn't leave well enough alone, however. We see in Excalibur that Maggie has been on Genosha all along. So now what?

First clue to what had happened in "Planet X":

At the tail end of "Avengers Dissasembled", when Magneto collects Scarlet Witch away (from the entire Avengers host), he says, "Xavier was right. It was you."

From that line, I inferred that Professor X and Magneto had been talking on Genosha, trying to puzzle out who had "impersonated" Magneto in the recent New York attack. I further inferred that Xorn had been "transmuted" into an insane Magneto clone by Scarlet Witch...after all, there was an entire issue of New X-Men from Xorn's own point of view.

Now, here's the puncline:

I had also inferred that the entire reason Scarlet Witch went insane and had her powers amped so wildly, was to provide an explanation for why the Magneto in "Planet X" wasn't really Magneto after all.

In other words, "House of M" is a direct result of retconning away the original intent of the "Planet X" storyline.

Now, however, there was apparently no Scarlet Witch involved, the Xorns did "Planet X" all by themselves.

So what does Magneto's statement mean when he says, "Xavier was right. It was you."?

Cripes, what a mess! I'm glad I didn't make it.

My brain hurts.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Haunt]

This would've been the best explanation...had they left it alone.


not really. there could be no House of M without Magneto. he had to be around for this to take place. Morrison's intent was to kill him permanently.

(As for Magneto's erratic behavior while impersonating Xorn, Maggie's power has been known to wax and wane in the past...perhaps he was in a wanning period and turned to "Kick" in the hopes of amping up. Then he goes insane with his "reversing the Earth's poles" gambit.)

or maybe Xorn just went nuts and used Kick in an attempt to impersonate Magneto.


From that line, I inferred that Professor X and Magneto had been talking on Genosha, trying to puzzle out who had "impersonated" Magneto in the recent New York attack. I further inferred that Xorn had been "transmuted" into an insane Magneto clone by Scarlet Witch...after all, there was an entire issue of New X-Men from Xorn's own point of view.

now that is ridiculous. why would Wanda transmute a complete stranger into her crazy father when all she had to do was summon her father (his reason for retrieving her after Disassembled)?


I had also inferred that the entire reason Scarlet Witch went insane and had her powers amped so wildly, was to provide an explanation for why the Magneto in "Planet X" wasn't really Magneto after all.

or maybe Morrison's run was retconned because, along the way, Bendis and crew realized that there was a story in Disassembled's fallout that required Magneto. rather than worry about having to resurrect Magneto, they simply blamed it on Wanda until they could come up w/ an official story.


In other words, "House of M" is a direct result of retconning away the original intent of the "Planet X" storyline.

House of M is a direct result of Disassembled. take HoM out of the picture & you have the Avengers & X-Men deciding whether to kill Scarlet Witch or not. lame.


Now, however, there was apparently no Scarlet Witch involved, the Xorns did "Planet X" all by themselves.

Xorn on kick was responsible for Planet X. this is how it should have been from the beginning. heck, it should have been Exodus.

So what does Magneto's statement mean when he says, "Xavier was right. It was you."?


my theory...Wanda was exhibiting extreme paranoia when her powers started flipping out; people were out to get her & her family (Pietro, Magneto,the twins,etc). maybe not even consciously, Wanda used her powers to keep her family safe. Pietro was conveniently reading a book in a cabin when Disassembled went down. Magneto was safe and, more importantly, completely unrecognizable to anyone who could get him into trouble (Unus the Untouchabe; a former brotherhood member) on Genosha. she also might have been affecting her father in other ways; making him more docile. of course, when the Avengers started attacking her, Magneto started behaving more like his old self & became more aggressive w/ his powers. this individual who let a bunch of trolls imprison him in 1 issue, turns around & creates a wormhole. why? because Wanda needed protection. who better to turn to than daddy?

[Syzygy]

now that is ridiculous. why would Wanda transmute a complete stranger into her crazy father when all she had to do was summon her father (his reason for retrieving her after Disassembled)?

Then what did Maggie mean when he said, "Xavier was right. It was you all along."

I never said it wasn't ridiculous. I said that was what was implied. After all, she killed Hawkeye, Vision, and Ant-Man. Killing fellow Avengers is also pretty ridiculous, so why not transmute Xorn as well while she's having her zany little breakdown?



Xorn on kick was responsible for Planet X. this is how it should have been from the beginning.

So sorry, must disagree:

1) Neither Xorn can remove their helmet without destroying the world...something "Magneto" does in the "Planet X" storyline.

2) Even if Xorn (either one) could remove his helmet without destroying the world, he wouldn't look like Magneto.

3) If Xorn has a star in his brain, one which incinerates everything but his helmet, it seems unlikely he could even ingest "Kick", since anything he tries to eat, drink, or inhale (that is at all chemically complex) would get toasted by the star-level intensity energies his head constantly eminates. Kick is an aerosol narcotic; as a chemically complex molecule it would break down into hydrogen and helium upon exposure to Xorn's plasma-hot head. So toking up on it would be a problem of considerable, if not insurmountable, difficulty. (Absent "Kick" [i.e., Sublime], there's nothing in Xorn's personality that suggests he would impersonate Magneto and launch the events of "Planet X".)

4) While a star undoubtedly emits all manner of electromagnetic energies, it is most curious that Xorn exibited such exquisite control of his powers as to perfectly emulate Magneto's...when Xorn spent virtually every year of his life imprisoned in China. Not much chance to work out in the Danger Room, eh?


A simpler explanation (which of course, Marvel has eschewed):

Xorn I gets transformed by an insane Scarlet Witch into a Magneto clone. Since he's Wanda's creation, he behaves like the meanest Magneto Wanda can remember, the same one that bossed her and her brother around years ago.


Or, even simpler, if you don't like that one:

Xorn always was Magneto in disguise. Mags used Kick to boost his powers and fell under the influence of Sublime. Wolvie killed Mags, but Wanda recreated/resurrected him.


It really couldn't possibly be Xorn...except that Joe Q insists upon it.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Haunt]

Then what did Maggie mean when he said, "Xavier was right. It was you all along."


you must have completely ignored that long part of my post where i answered that question. Wanda was behind the subplot in New Excalibur; where Magneto was unrecognizable to people who knew him. why? because she was protecting him and Pietro; keeping them out of the way and under the radar. she did the same thing earlier for SheHulk; helped her survive an enraged Titania. that's why Magneto said "it was all your doing." it's pretty simple if you think about it. Genosha had just been attacked. her father, naturally, would have launched an attack against whoever did it. Wanda kept him from doing that and then position Xavier to basically watch him; like they are both chess pieces.


1) Neither Xorn can remove their helmet without destroying the world...something "Magneto" does in the "Planet X" storyline.


who told you that? Xorn? yeah, we have no reason to distrust Xorn and his motives. :rolleyes:

2) Even if Xorn (either one) could remove his helmet without destroying the world, he wouldn't look like Magneto.


why not? what exactly does Xorn look like under his helmet? you don't think energy could mold itself to look like whatever it wants to? what does the Shadow King look like? what does Proteus look like?

3) If Xorn has a star in his brain, one which incinerates everything but his helmet, it seems unlikely he could even ingest "Kick", since anything he tries to eat, drink, or inhale (that is at all chemically complex) would get toasted by the star-level intensity energies his head constantly eminates.


if a bacteria could be sentient and wanda could transmute someone into Magneto and Kid Omega could evolve into a phoenix being, why couldn't an energy being be enhanced by Kick?

Kick is an aerosol narcotic; as a chemically complex molecule it would break down into hydrogen and helium upon exposure to Xorn's plasma-hot head. So toking up on it would be a problem of considerable, if not insurmountable, difficulty. (Absent "Kick" [i.e., Sublime], there's nothing in Xorn's personality that suggests he would impersonate Magneto and launch the events of "Planet X".)


we don't know Xorn's personality.

4) While a star undoubtedly emits all manner of electromagnetic energies, it is most curious that Xorn exibited such exquisite control of his powers as to perfectly emulate Magneto's...when Xorn spent virtually every year of his life imprisoned in China. Not much chance to work out in the Danger Room, eh?


that's why he took Kick. it gave him control over his powers.

[Rivka]

you must have completely ignored that long part of my post where i answered that question. Wanda was behind the subplot in New Excalibur; where Magneto was unrecognizable to people who knew him. why? because she was protecting him and Pietro; keeping them out of the way and under the radar. she did the same thing earlier for SheHulk; helped her survive an enraged Titania. that's why Magneto said "it was all your doing." it's pretty simple if you think about it. Genosha had just been attacked. her father, naturally, would have launched an attack against whoever did it. Wanda kept him from doing that and then position Xavier to basically watch him; like they are both chess pieces.

I agree with you.

Supporting this interpretation is the dialogue from EXCALIBUR #11, where Xavier confronts Magneto for going to rescue Wanda at the end of AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED. (And recall, he left with the black and red costume, and came back with the Xorneto costume that the Avengers would recognize.)

Xavier is furious that Magneto exposed imself to the world after the world "...saw you die...." He shouts, "Are you POSSESSED!?!" Magneto answers: "Charles, I had no choice." What does that mean? He had no "choice" because he's a parent, or he actually had no choice, because Wanda called him to come.

Xavier says, on the next page, "Will you please take off that damnable helmet! You must know wht kind of effect it has on people. They'll assume the worst!" Magneto answers: "It didn't occur to me, Charles. It just felt right." Again, no volition in changing his costume -- sometime in transit through a wormhole? "It just felt right ..." because Wanda put the costume on him.

And then, after Xavier tries to find out what happened, he asks, "How did you find her?" Magneto answers, "Blood calls to blood, I suppose. Or power to power. I just ... knew." He "just knew"? Again, it seems to me Wanda is the one who brought her father to New York. And the ability to generate a wormhole -- possibly Magneto potentially has the power, but this is the first time he's done this -- it seems Wanda used his power to do it.


who told you that? Xorn? yeah, we have no reason to distrust Xorn and his motives. :rolleyes:

Exactly. And how is it that now the ANNUAL, where Xorn removes his mask, and shows that he is actually Xorn underneath, proof that he was Magneto? If anything, we've seen that Xorn really does have a ball of energy for a head. Is it a star? That's what he says it is. Does it destroy the world when he removes his mask? No. Does Shen Xorn have a "black hole" for a brain? That's how he describes it. What actually does it do? It was shown to selectively draw in people or objects, take them somewhere else -- obviously it doesn't kill them, as Black Tom is back in New Excalibur. Looks more like the "black hole" is actually some kind of wormhole portal, and Kuan Yin Xorn's "star" is really some kind of contained massive fusion-powered energy. Both Xorns showed they could control their "star" and "black hole" when they wanted to. So, I don't see any reason to trust Kuan Yin Xorn's description of his powers.

why not? what exactly does Xorn look like under his helmet? you don't think energy could mold itself to look like whatever it wants to? what does the Shadow King look like? what does Proteus look like?

Again, I completely agree with you. We don't know what Kuan Yin and Shen Xorn look like under their masks. One of the theories presented on this message board a while back, is that Kuan Yin was engineered to look like Magneto from the start -- using the same technology (Sublime/Weapon Plus) that Cassandra Nova used when she injected herself with something at the beginning of "E is for Extinction" and assumed the voice of Trask so she could control the sentinels.

We don't know what the full extent of Kuan Yin Xorn's powers were. We don't know how much Sublime merged with his consciousness, and for how long that had been the case. There is nothing to say that Xorn wasn't infected by Sublime years before "Planet X" takes place. In fact, the evidence in the comics supports this -- in the sense that "John" Sublime was well aware of Kuan Yin's existence in that prison before the X-MEN ever heard of him.

if a bacteria could be sentient and wanda could transmute someone into Magneto and Kid Omega could evolve into a phoenix being, why couldn't an energy being be enhanced by Kick?

Especially if "kick" is a mode of transmission for the sentient bacteria colony -- i.e., a mass of bacteria that forms a gestalt, that is composed of individual bacteria that infect hosts at the cellular level! Think of how bacteria and viruses infect our bodies. Viruses insert their DNA into our very cells! There are now experiments using bacteria to do the same, for the purpose of inserting genetic cures for genetic diseases. Xorn still had enough of a human body, that Sublime could have gotten control of all his mutant abilities.

we don't know Xorn's personality.

Precisely.

And what the heck? It is even more precarious to argue that Magneto would spend a year dithering around the X-Mansion in an iron mask, or would let Kick consume him and allow himself to be possessed so easily, or would act like such an idiot with a complete lack of understanding of his powers, as he did in "Planet X." We know know nothing about Xorn's original personality, or if he was dangerous all along. Heck, for all we know, the Chinese government had a good reason to imprison him! The X-Men were set up to rescue him -- somebody loaded that *poor persecuted mutant Xorn* schtick on them, pushing their buttons.

I presume this is what Joe Quesada meant, saying who controlled Xorn will be revealed in the future. Explaining exactly what the real motives of the Xorn twins were, and if someone or some thing controlled them, and if someone or some thing did, who it was.

that's why he took Kick. it gave him control over his powers.

It also gave Sublime control over his powers!

We also don't know what exactly Xorn's powers were -- what kind of control he did have over his powers, whatever they were. We have to presume, that whoever used Xorn to set up the X-Men, to try and jump-start a mutant-non-mutant war, understood what Xorn's powers were, and thought they would be useful in the plan.

By the way, Xorn/Collective is a Xorn who was already merged with Sublime, so the motives of Xorn/Collective are going to be those of Xorn/Sublime, and I believe the speech to Magneto in NA #20, about wanting the real Magneto to lead mutant kind, is the same bogus message Xorneto used when masking Sublime's real motives in "Planet X." That is, only the real Magneto can cause the damage, has the will and determination to keep coming back to the fight, can keep instigating the hatred and fear of humanity to start the war Sublime so much wants. But that's my speculation. Marvel is going to reveal in a future story exactly who or what was behind Kuan Yin Xorn's infiltration of the X-Men and impersonation of Magneto, if there was anyone. As Haunt has said, for all we know, it could be Xorn himself.

[Rivka]

If Brian Michael Bendis was doing his job properly, you wouldn't need Quesada's explaination to sort things out.

DDM, I respectfully disagree. There are two stories here. The story of the Xorns and the story of Magneto.

What Bendis was addressing in NA #20 is the story of Magneto. Using the remains of Xorn, now merged with the Collective, to confront Magneto, established that Magneto had nothing to do with Planet X, and most likely has given Mags his powers back. Bendis then disposed of Xorn, perhaps once and for all.

That still leaves the story of the Xorns -- how did they get mixed up in all of this? What happened to Kuan Yin Xorn, from the time he was imprisoned, until the time the X-Men hear of him. Who was controlling him? What happened to make him take Magneto's "face and name" and try to start a war between mutants and non-mutants? Was he originally a "good" guy, or a "bad" guy -- by suggesting that he was "forced" to infiltrate the X-Men and take Magneto's face, it's likely he started out as a heroic type. But we really don't know. That's the story that still needs to be told. I actually like the idea, as I like Xorn as a character. But this is a story that the X-office will tell at a future time.

[Rivka]

What's the big deal with Maggie's human name? Obviously, the one he wants people to swallow is Erik Lensherr, so that's the one he used in his memoirs. Why does everybody expect Maggie's memoir is going to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

There are pleny of less than truthful memoirs out there. No reason why Maggie's should be any different.

Peace,
Syzygy

Yes, exactly.

I fail to see why some readers are so hot and bothered about this particular use of the "Erik Lehnsherr" forged name. (And it's misspelled, too, like Mags would misspell his real name.)

In any case, this is a public document Magneto is writing, it's a statement he intends to be read by the same people he's been hiding his real name and origins from, for years and years. That scene isn't Magneto playing "truth or dare." It's Magneto making a political statement.

Someone mentioned they didn't know it is a false name. Well, it is. "Erik Lehnsherr" is a forged name, that Magneto was given by a forger some 30 years ago, Marvel time. This happened in X-MEN #72, and it isn't some footnote of a story, but a very important one, and part of Marvel canon. One that has not been ignored by Marvel -- see the Handbook, for example. We don't know how long Magneto has had the name "Magnus" but the Handbook and the Magneto biography on the Marvel website say it isn't his real name, either. He apparently brought the name "Magnus" to the table. He used it when he immigrated to Israel -- seems to have been "Erik Magnus" then.

I would think all the editors and writers of Marvel are well aware that "Erik Lehnhserr" is a forged, false name. Bendis is -- that's why the HOUSE OF M was the "House of Magnus" and not the "House of Lehnsherr." We also have evidence that Magnus is at least part of his original name, because during an old AVENGERS story, where Exodus first attacks Quicksilver and blows up Bova's hut, (someone can refresh my momory on the issue numbers) Exodus (who has had unprecedented access to Magneto's mind while the latter was comatose after the mind-wipe) calls Pietro "Magnusson" and not "Lehnsherr." (Of course, Exodus is schizophrenic with several different personalilty disorders, so we can't really use anything he does as evidence of anything. :) )

[Sean Whitmore]

Someone mentioned they didn't know it is a false name. Well, it is. "Erik Lehnsherr" is a forged name, that Magneto was given by a forger some 30 years ago, Marvel time. This happened in X-MEN #72, and it isn't some footnote of a story, but a very important one, and part of Marvel canon.


I don't think anything from that era of the X-Books can be considered THAT important. Not that the stories weren't good, but (a) it was during the editorial domination period, which most people would just as soon like to forget, (b) many plotlines and character points from that time have been forgotten.

As far as I'm concerned, until someone in the here and now confirms the name's falsehood, I consider that story to be as canonical as the mystery uber-bad guy who stopped time in the Hellfire Club to chat with Sebastian Shaw. (i.e. "yeah, I remember it, but it;s not being revisited, so who cares?")


SEAN

[riotgear]

I would think all the editors and writers of Marvel are well aware that "Erik Lehnhserr" is a forged, false name. Bendis is -- that's why the HOUSE OF M was the "House of Magnus" and not the "House of Lehnsherr." We also have evidence that Magnus is at least part of his original name, because during an old AVENGERS story, where Exodus first attacks Quicksilver and blows up Bova's hut, (someone can refresh my momory on the issue numbers) Exodus (who has had unprecedented access to Magneto's mind while the latter was comatose after the mind-wipe) calls Pietro "Magnusson" and not "Lehnsherr." (Of course, Exodus is schizophrenic with several different personalilty disorders, so we can't really use anything he does as evidence of anything. :) )

Exodus and Cortez called Quicksilver "Magnusson" because of his heritage, not because that's his name. He didn't mind being called Lehnsherr, but hated being called "Magnusson" because the Acolytes wanted him to accept his "destiny" at the side of his father.

[Rivka]

I don't think anything from that era of the X-Books can be considered THAT important. Not that the stories weren't good, but (a) it was during the editorial domination period, which most people would just as soon like to forget, (b) many plotlines and character points from that time have been forgotten.

As far as I'm concerned, until someone in the here and now confirms the name's falsehood, I consider that story to be as canonical as the mystery uber-bad guy who stopped time in the Hellfire Club to chat with Sebastian Shaw. (i.e. "yeah, I remember it, but it;s not being revisited, so who cares?")


SEAN

It is confirmed. How many times do you need something confirmed? The name is false. Saying canon that is generated by editorial dictate doesn't matter, means what exactly? Nearly everything these days is editorially driven. And comparing a major revelation from a character's history to some plotline that was dropped is not a valid comparison at all. This wasn't a plotline, it was a major revelation about the character, that is crucial to the character's history and an understanding of the character.

THe Handbook confirms it is false, published at the end of 2005. The current Marvel.com biography of Magneto states that the name is false. How current do you want it?

It's a part of canon now. "Erik Lehnsherr" is a false name. Magneto killed a man to keep his real identity secret. On the contrary, "someone" would have to come along to prove it is his birth name, and why would "someone" want to do that? For all practical purposes, it means nothing to Magneto as to how he presents himself to the people of Marvel Earth. It is far more logical he is protecting his real family name, given that we were shown on panel that he took "Erik Lehnsherr" as an alias.

I fail to understand why you need this to be his real name, and are willing to say all parts of canon you don't like or don't agree with not only can be ignored, but you are declaring, they don't exist. If you were Wanda, rewriting the comics, maybe you could rewrite reality. But the "reality" is -- the real world of the comic books both from an external and internal point of view -- Magneto took the name "Erik Lehnsherr" and the false Gyspy identity in order to hide from the authorities who were looking for him, and to search for his wife amongst her own people. That's the way it is.

I'd like to say certain revelations and events in canon are not real also. I'd like to be able to just declare what I don't think is important, isn't, and doesn't exist. But I just don't have the detachment from reality to do that. Hell, to me, Grant Morrison's entire X-MEN run should be considered an illusion, like a bad dream, and I think until someone from Marvel actually comes online and states, or states in the comics, in writing, in a special story dedicated to this very topic, the very words, Grant Morrison's run was NOT an illusion, and everything that happened is in canon, I'll just argue and declare, nothing that Grant Morrison wrote in X-MEN actually happened.

[Rivka]

Exodus and Cortez called Quicksilver "Magnusson" because of his heritage, not because that's his name. He didn't mind being called Lehnsherr, but hated being called "Magnusson" because the Acolytes wanted him to accept his "destiny" at the side of his father.

I was under the impression that Pietro hated hated HATED being called Lehnsherr, because he was proud to have been raised by Django Maximoff, and refused to dignify Magneto's paltry parenting by taking his "name."

But I'm sure your interpretation of the "Magnusson" stuff is correct. I don't really remember, and I don't feel like looking it up. I just thought it was strange, seeing "Magnusson" as the declared name of Pietro. I guess you could say using Magnusson even has religious overtones; like the dedicated followers or priests of a god taking the name "Son of ---".

But then, why didn't they call Pietro "Erikson" instead? :p

[riotgear]

But I'm sure your interpretation of the "Magnusson" stuff is correct. I don't really remember, and I don't feel like looking it up. I just thought it was strange, seeing "Magnusson" as the declared name of Pietro. I guess you could say using Magnusson even has religious overtones; like the dedicated followers or priests of a god taking the name "Son of ---".

The Nordic tradition is the most obvious, with Erickson, Johnson, etc. But other cultures do it as well. Don't Russians do it in the middle name?

But then, why didn't they call Pietro "Erikson" instead? :p

Because when the Acolytes started calling him "Magnusson" in X-Factor #92, the name Erik Lehnsherr hadn't been revealed yet. That didn't happen until X-Men Unlimited #2, during a conference that Gabrielle Haller was conducting. Then Charles began referring to him as Eric, rather than Magnus, in Uncanny X-Men #300.

[Sean Whitmore]

Saying canon that is generated by editorial dictate doesn't matter, means what exactly?


What I actually said was that canon that barely anybody remembers and even less people care about means nothing.

Thor used to shoot lightning bolts out of his hands back in the old days. It's in the book, so it's canon. Know why nobody ever brings this up anymore? Because six people in the world actually remember it, and maybe four of them give a damn.


This wasn't a plotline, it was a major revelation about the character, that is crucial to the character's history and an understanding of the character.


So crucial that it was never ever mentioned again.


I fail to understand why you need this to be his real name


I don't. I just don't feel the need to throw a fit because of one line in a comic from ten years ago. Everyone in creation calls him Erik, I'm gonna call him Erik.


Hell, to me, Grant Morrison's entire X-MEN run should be considered an illusion, like a bad dream


Yikes. :eek: Nothing I can say to that which won't spin this thread completely off-topic.


SEAN

[Syzygy]

who told you that? Xorn? yeah, we have no reason to distrust Xorn and his motives.

why not? what exactly does Xorn look like under his helmet? you don't think energy could mold itself to look like whatever it wants to? what does the Shadow King look like? what does Proteus look like?

if a bacteria could be sentient and wanda could transmute someone into Magneto and Kid Omega could evolve into a phoenix being, why couldn't an energy being be enhanced by Kick?

we don't know Xorn's personality.

Ben Bova once said of writing fantastic fiction that you could create any rules you like for your imaginary world, but those rules must be consistent.

It was established in New X-Men Annual 2001 that Xorn's head is a seething, star-like mass of energy, and that if he takes his helmet off for too long, the world gets destroyed.

Everything follows from that.

No way that seething mass of energy could eat, drink, or breathe anything. He's got a "star" for a head! A star!

EDIT Whoops! It looks like Morrison himself isn't consistent with Xorn's powers. In the Annual, it shows Xorn incinerating some child mutants and an army officer says, "This is what a three second exposure of what the face of Xorn does to a living being." Then, in issue # 127 of New X-Men (Morrison's run), the very last page shows Xorn sitting down, and apparently, eating rice! If those kids were incinerated by his unprotected head, that rice is going to be reduced to charcoal when it hit his mouth. Maybe he eats totally blackened and burned rice, I don't know. It doesn't appear that the annual and #127 can consisently fit together. Oh, well...End EDIT

And Xorn's personality was established in his work with the "special class" (and #127, an entire issue from Xorn's point of view)...before Morrison did a retcon (albeit a clever one) and turned him into Magneto. Saying Xorn was impersonating Magneto all along is also a retcon, just not a clever one.

Neither the Shadow King nor Proteus can "mold" their energy-bodies into a soldified head that perfectly resembles someone else. If Joe Q is asking us to believe this, it's a hell of a stretch...not only could Xorn take off his helmet (he was just faking?), but he can also give himself any face he likes? He's a superhot plasma-head who doubles as Mystique or Copycat? None of these things were established beforehand, so why conjure them up in an attempt to salvage the crappy retcon that is New Avengers #20?

that's why he took Kick. it gave him control over his powers.

I don't recall it ever being said that Kick gave mutants control over their power. I believe it was said to BOOST their power. That would imply Xorn's star-head would become even more powerful than before...and it was already powerful enough to destroy the Earth. I should think that Xorn's toking up on Kick--highly dubious for a superhot plasma-head--would mean not that he can suddenly control his increased power without his helmet, but, more likely, that the helmet instead can't handle the strain and his plasma seethes out everywhere.

Joe Q's explanation is vastly more complicated than the two I've suggested. Convoluted defenses for it can be devised, but that's really just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. We learned a lot about Xorn and his powers in Morrison's run. We have to ignore or forget this to go with Joe Q's cheesy and unnecessary retcon.

As for what happened in Excalibur Vol. 2, well, I wouldn't know. The first two issues were so very bad, coupled with Claremont being rather disappointing lately, so I avoided it. I'm still not sure I understand what you're referring to, but if it involves Excalbur Vol. 2, I'm not sure I want to.

The problem with retcons is that, no matter how many bases the writing staff attempts to cover, they usually fail. I think they failed on the Xorn front too, as I've read Morrison's run, and see no reason to believe what Joe Q is saying. I'm surprised more than a few fans are actually going along with this explanation when it's obvious Joe Q and staff didn't put very much thought into it at all. The writing in New Avengers #20, which explains things poorly, suggests that even Bendis didn't really understand it, that he was just following orders.

Have you ever held an asthma inhaler in your hands? If you got one close to Xorn's unhelmeted head, that thing would sizzle, melt, and incinerate in an instant. His head is STAR for crying out loud! A star can't suck aerosol, much less could you bring aerosol in close contact with one. EDIT Still, Xorn is shown eating rice in #127...so if you imagine that the rice doesn't incinerate when he puts it in his mouth (not to mention the chopsticks), I suppose you can imagine him toking kick....on the other hand, why would children ten feet away from him incinerate, but not the rice and the Kick? Oh well....End EDIT

From retcons good rarely comes.

Don't defend them, or Marvel will only create worse ones.

[Gnarl]

Sigh.
Magneto had powers over electromagnetism. Xorn had gravity, healing and time.
Magneto hated concentration camps, Xorn wanted people put in them. Magneto smelled like Magneto, Xorn did not smell like Magneto to Hank and Logan.
Magneto had natural mindshields, and a forcefield, Xorn had neither.

Not getting into the incredible nonfunctionallity of Xorns whole plan for infiltrating the X-men.

Remember the old saying "If it doesn't walk like a duck..."
It didn't have powers like Magneto, didn't act like Magneto, wasn't recognizable as Magneto to enhanced senses.

Even marvel has come straight out and said it wasn't Magneto. Give it up.

[Sean Whitmore]

It was established in New X-Men Annual 2001 that Xorn's head is a seething, star-like mass of energy, and that if he takes his helmet off for too long, the world gets destroyed.


You have to allow for the possibility that Morrison was just being strange for strange's sake.

Obviously, Xorn didn't literally have a star for a brain, or he'd be dead, and so would everyone around him.


SEAN

[Syzygy]

Sigh.
Magneto had powers over electromagnetism. Xorn had gravity, healing and time....

Remember the old saying "If it doesn't walk like a duck..."
It didn't have powers like Magneto, didn't act like Magneto, wasn't recognizable as Magneto to enhanced senses.

Even marvel has come straight out and said it wasn't Magneto. Give it up.

I don't understand what point of view you're advocating.

"Xorneto" clearly has magnetic powers in Planet X. But you state (correctly, I think) that Xorn didn't. That would seem to defeat Joe Q's explanation.

And of course, the biggest objection to the plausibility of Morrison's retcon is that we got a whole issue from Xorn's point of view in #127.

Which is why I suggested that a better explanation would be that Wanda, in her madness, "transformed" Xorn into a crazed Magneto.

[Syzygy]

You have to allow for the possibility that Morrison was just being strange for strange's sake.

Obviously, Xorn didn't literally have a star for a brain, or he'd be dead, and so would everyone around him.


SEAN

I took Morrison to mean that Xorn had "microscopic superdense stellar matter" in his head. Some sort of "singularity" of hot, highly compressed plasma. It was also referred to as a "black hole" in the annual...a power later attributed to his "brother".

So he and his brother could actually have been one and the same, if Marvel had wanted to play that.

I also understood that the helmet had special properties that stopped him from incinerating everything...made of special "silver surfer-like" material (perhaps from a meteorite, who knows?).

[BizarroBeachHead]

I'm...I'm sorry, but I don't understand why we are even debating this.

Marvel had the absolute perfect explanation for the story: Wanda did it.

"Wanda went crazy and created a second Magneto. Did Wanda create the evil Magneto or the good Magneto? If you didn't like Morrison's story, then he was evil because he was created by Wanda. This easily explains away any "bad characterization" that Magneto displayed. If you did like Morrison's story, then the good Magneto was created by Wanda. Pick you're poison because we'll never know for sure. It doesn't matter because the bad Magneto is dead and the good Magneto is alive. Lets move on."

This would have been the simplest answer, one that I thought they were going to give in House of M. It solves the problem, letting the reader choose his own happy ending, which doesn't have any collateral damage on any future stories.

Kuan-Yen Xorn and Shen Xorn were twin brothers from China, both mutants, one with the power of a star in his head, one the power of a black hole. Kuan-Yen Xorn came under the influence of as-yet-to-be-revealed entity that forced him to assume the identity of Magneto, battle the X-Men and destroy Manhattan. He was subsequently killed by Wolverine near the end of that battle, in the Planet X storyline.

Soon thereafter, his twin brother Shen surfaced and briefly joined the X-Men. This Xorn brother was de-powered during M-Day.

Because Xorn's powers were psychokinetic, and his personality was so strong, it basically remained an almost disembodied sentient thing among the big ball of mutant energy. When that energy got sucked down to Earth by Michael and all absorbed by him, Xorn was the dominant personality in the mix, and that's what drove him towards Genosha and Magneto.

If this is what Quesada and Bendis want us to belive, then why didn't they put it in the comic. Instead we got 3 issues of slow build were we discover absolutely nothing about the character, then the climax issue which vaguely alludes to the story Quesda gave at the Newsarama interview. If they wanted that to be the concrete explanation, then why beat around the bush so much? I like Bendis and I like this team, but all the editorial nonsense going around Marvel's main titles and writers have caused me to drop this book.

[Will.S]

I'm...I'm sorry, but I don't understand why we are even debating this.

Marvel had the absolute perfect explanation for the story: Wanda did it.

"Wanda went crazy and created a second Magneto. Did Wanda create the evil Magneto or the good Magneto? If you didn't like Morrison's story, then he was evil because he was created by Wanda. This easily explains away any "bad characterization" that Magneto displayed. If you did like Morrison's story, then the good Magneto was created by Wanda. Pick you're poison because we'll never know for sure. It doesn't matter because the bad Magneto is dead and the good Magneto is alive. Lets move on."

This would have been the simplest answer, one that I thought they were going to give in House of M. It solves the problem, letting the reader choose his own happy ending, which doesn't have any collateral damage on any future stories.
Yeah, personally I would have preferred the Scarlet Witch answer with her bringing Magneto back but let Morrison's stuff still be concrete or at least explain the wonkier stuff like the New X-Men Annual.

If this is what Quesada and Bendis want us to belive, then why didn't they put it in the comic. Instead we got 3 issues of slow build were we discover absolutely nothing about the character, then the climax issue which vaguely alludes to the story Quesda gave at the Newsarama interview. If they wanted that to be the concrete explanation, then why beat around the bush so much? I like Bendis and I like this team, but all the editorial nonsense going around Marvel's main titles and writers have caused me to drop this book.
While I won't be dropping New Avengers anytime soon, I do agree with what you say here.

[BizarroBeachHead]

While I won't be dropping New Avengers anytime soon, I do agree with what you say here.
Well, I need to be cutting back on my monthly titles anyway. Civil War is neat and all, but I'm not too concerned with the tie ins. I will probably check back in with the book after Civil War and see if any new status quo or team members can entice me to stay.

[RidleyX]

if there is anything I learned From this issue is that Sentry like to throw people into the sun, look at the Sentry 8.

[Will.S]

Well, I need to be cutting back on my monthly titles anyway. Civil War is neat and all, but I'm not too concerned with the tie ins. I will probably check back in with the book after Civil War and see if any new status quo or team members can entice me to stay.
Ah I got ya ;)

[Gnarl]

I don't understand what point of view you're advocating.

"Xorneto" clearly has magnetic powers in Planet X. But you state (correctly, I think) that Xorn didn't. That would seem to defeat Joe Q's explanation.

And of course, the biggest objection to the plausibility of Morrison's retcon is that we got a whole issue from Xorn's point of view in #127.

Which is why I suggested that a better explanation would be that Wanda, in her madness, "transformed" Xorn into a crazed Magneto.

The impression I got from Planet X was that he was using gravity powers to fake Magnetic ones. Someone even said straight out that he was doing things to gravity and time.
And he didn't seem to be able to use them for things Magneto does almost reflexively, like put up a forcefield or mindshield.

However, I do agree that "Wanda did it" is a much better explanation.

Xorneto would have been formed on memories of the old brothehood Magneto, seen through the eyes of a younger and less powerful Wanda. Powerful, dangerous and not too sane with his plans.

It even adds a bit to Magnetos characterization. He is too reticent and proud to have told his children about his concentration camp background. Possibly the one thing that would make them understand him better.

Hence Xornetos cavalier attitude to them.