Valedictorians punished for thanking God.

[Samurai]

I've noticed several of these stories recently...

Erica Corder in Colorado Springs:

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1318292&secid=1
http://www.family.org/cforum/news/a0040791.cfm

Brittney McComb in Las Vegas

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=17034
http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5042317&nav=15MV
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jun-17-Sat-2006/news/8014416.html

Meanwhile, valedictorians at many other schools thanked God and the world did not end, nor did atheists burst into flame:

http://www.charleston.net/stories/?newsID=88833&section=localnews
http://www.hendersondispatch.com/articles/2006/05/28/news/news03.txt
http://www.news-banner.com/index/news-app/story.4289/menu./sec./home.

I remember the speakers thanking God when I graduated, and I didn't find it horribly offensive. I think they should be allowed to thank whoever they want, as long as they don't start shouting obcenities. In this case, I see it as clearly a matter of free speech, and in no way is a valedictorian's personal remarks an "establishment of a state religion". Similarly, a muslim valedictorian should be able to thank Allah, or a Buddhist student thank Buddha, or a philosophy student might thank a philosopher whose words and teachings gave them strength and encouragement to succeed in school.

Were I a valedictorian, I would certainly thank my parents for all the help and encouragement they gave me through school. That might offend some kids who don't have one or both parents, but does that mean I should be forbidden from acknowledging their great influence on my success?

[MJC]

I don't have any problem with the speakers thanking god or whatever, but I do think spending the whole time talking about god/preaching/trying to convert people in inappropriate.

If I was the valedictorian and I attributed my academic success to lack of belief in god I doubt it would be popular...

[Charles RB]

I've noticed several of these stories recently...

Erica Corder in Colorado Springs:

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1318292&secid=1

Being asked to acknowledge that the school wasn't involved in her asking people to find out about Jesus (i.e. covering its arse in case anyone accused them of First Amendment violations) is a punishment?

Brittney McComb in Las Vegas

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5042317&nav=15MV

Cutting her mike off in mid-speech seems like an over-reaction, but they're not punishing her for thanking God, they're doing it because the school district had told her beforehand not to and she did anyway.


Sounds like a storm in a teacup, really.

[Donald M.]

I don't have any problem with the speakers thanking god or whatever, but I do think spending the whole time talking about god/preaching/trying to convert people in inappropriate.

If I was the valedictorian and I attributed my academic success to lack of belief in god I doubt it would be popular...

Exactly. It's one thing to get up and talk about how your faith has been important to you and (to keep it on-point) helped you through your academic career.

It's another thing entirely to view your graduation speech as an opportunity to preach to a captive audience.

I don't believe ambushing people with a speech about Jesus is going to bring anyone to God. That's why I've always been puzzled by those who proselytize. God doesn't need advertising.

If we're to find God, we must find our own way. I think that more often than not, getting preached at when you don't expect it turns people away from religion, rather than bringing them towards it.

That isn't to say there aren't times when such preaching can't be a positive thing. I just don't think a high school commencement is the place for an impromptu sermon.

[StoneGold]

If God wanted to be thanked by them, He wouldn't have had them punished.

[Solaris]

Ditto. Thanking is one thing, preaching another. If they want to do the latter, they need to go to divinity school, get a degree, get assigned to a church, etc.---you know, do their time in the trenches. ;)

[Valmore]

At least the speech wold have had focus. Unlike the one my professor gave at my college graduation. Man that speech sucked. I'd rather have heard a good sermon than her inane ramblings of unconnected drunken buffoonery.

[Erebus]

I went to my cousin's graduation a couple years ago. The valedvictorian thanked Buddha. No one seemed terribly offended by it.

[Grazzt]

Okay, Samurai, quick hypothetical for you. If I were to be speaking at a public event that you were attending, which was completely non-religious, would you like me to start preaching about Islam or Buddhism (I'm not either, just a hypothetical)? That's why these kids are being censured, they're using a forum that is supposed to be non-religious for the purposes of preaching their religious beliefs. They're not just "thanking God", they were using their positions to deliver sermons.

[StoneGold]

I went to my cousin's graduation a couple years ago. The valedvictorian thanked Buddha. No one seemed terribly offended by it.
Yeah, but they were thanking former Piston great James "Buddha" Edwards, so it's all good.

[That JonoGuy]

Sounds like they got what they deserved. A graduation ceremony isn't there for valedictorians to preach about god to the masses. Thanking god in a graduation speech and trying to convert the crowd through their speech are two different things. I don't think anyone would have been upset by them thanking god for them personally, but to indocrinate the crowd as well crossed the line.

[shadowraven]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a person thanking whatever god they believe in when making a speach. However, I would get pissed off if turned into a "if only everyone accepted Jesus into their lives, the world would be such a wonderful place" type of rant. Even though their intentions are good, a valevictorian is abusing their position once they cross that line.

[Wesley Dodds]

Erica Corder:

Erica Corder knew for months that she would use her high school commencement speech to evangelize.

But she didn’t tell anyone.

So the unexpected call at graduation ceremonies May 25 for students and families to learn about Jesus Christ left school officials worried her views might seem to have been sanctioned by the school, a violation of the First Amendment.

She was asked to write an e-mail to parents to explain herself and acknowledge the school was not involved.

Brittney McComb:

Graduation ceremonies are school-sponsored events, a stance supported by federal court rulings, and as such may include religious references but not proselytizing, they said.

They said McComb's speech amounted to proselytizing and that her commentary could have been perceived as school-sponsored.


...

"We review the speeches and tell them they may not proselytize," Hoffman said. "We encourage people to talk about religion and the impact on their lives. But when that discussion crosses over to become proselytizing, then we to tell students they can't do that."

Now, from your thread title -- "Valedictorians punished for thanking God" -- you would think that some Valedictorians had, in fact, been punished for thanking God. Instead of being stopped from proselytising.

Did you even read the stories you linked to, Samurai did you just go "click, whir, outrage, post it on CBR"? I think either you did not actually read the stories or that for whatever reason you didn't understand them.

"Meanwhile, valedictorians at many other schools thanked God and the world did not end, nor did atheists burst into flame." But, Samurai, that's not what the stories are about.

[Fabian]

I have a personal experrience with this in that during my graduation, I said I was going to get up from the podium and walk off it when they (the school administrators) mentioned God. I had no problem with a student doing it, but I had a problem with the principal and vice principals doing it. I was the president of the graduating class by the way and I was already on thin ice for being against the administration on past decisions so they threatened me with a suspension and not recieving my diploma if I made a scene. Heck, they had already cancelled my graduation speech as a punishment for not voting for something I felt was a poor choice of school funding.

I didn't make a scene. I was too tired of fighting and I just wanted out. It took a lot to not say anything because at one point, a priest came up and led the crowd in prayer.

[Sanagi]

Nothing wrong with thanking God in a speech.

Except that it's a total cliche.

[Trulyures]

I mean, I'm a Christian and I have no problem with people thanking God at all. Do I think they should be punished heck no. Then again, it is another for trying to convert people at a crowd because to me it can be hypocritical.
SOmetimes people who even thank God are totally two headed, so yea, that's my thought on it.

[The Grand Beef]

If people thanked Lucifer or Antioplasmiactropher of the Third Cycle, people would make a big whoop over it.

If people want to thank God, eh, okay. Shouldn't be exclucive though. If there was a Wiccan Valed...whatever, however you spell those smart people, if ther was a Pagan one who spent a moment to acknowldege her god/great spirit/beliefs, all the norms would get bent out of shape.

I don't mind the Christian God being around and about, I know he's a popular fellow. I just don't like how all the other dieties/faiths/thingies get pushed aside. I'm lucky to live in an area of fairly openeness to other beliefs. I've learned a lot.

But, oh, that is off topic. I don't mean to sound the prick, but I've met some hypocritical Christians in my day (not to mean they're all like that, I've just had some bad experiences with individuals who want other Christians in charge telling others how it is but disregarding others belifes entirely)

So.

~Beefy

[Sanagi]

If people thanked Lucifer or Antioplasmiactropher of the Third Cycle, people would make a big whoop over it.
"And finally, I have to thank the flying spaghetti monster..."

[Trulyures]

LOL.. sorry, but I found this funny

[Samurai]

Erica Corder:



Brittney McComb:



Now, from your thread title -- "Valedictorians punished for thanking God" -- you would think that some Valedictorians had, in fact, been punished for thanking God. Instead of being stopped from proselytising.

Did you even read the stories you linked to, Samurai did you just go "click, whir, outrage, post it on CBR"? I think either you did not actually read the stories or that for whatever reason you didn't understand them.

"Meanwhile, valedictorians at many other schools thanked God and the world did not end, nor did atheists burst into flame." But, Samurai, that's not what the stories are about.
Here is the complete speech Erica Corder gave (she was onstage with several other kids at once, and said only the final section of the speech, which they'd divided between them.) I'll bold the part that mentions God:

"Throughout these lessons our teachers, parents, and let's not forget our peers have supported and encouraged us along the way. Thank you all for the past four amazing years. Because of your love and devotion to our success, we have all learned how to endure change and remain strong individuals. We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. And we also encourage you, now that we are all ready to encounter the biggest change in our lives thus far, the transition from childhood to adulthood, to leave (our school) with confidence and integrity. Congratulations class of 2006."
(from the 2nd article I posted... guess you missed it).

That's it. 4 sentences. At most about 15 seconds of time. I'd hardly call that preaching or proselytizing. And for that, her diploma was withheld, she had to write letters of explanation (and the school also wanted her to apologize!) I consider that nuts, and way too extreme a reaction to 4 sentences containing no profanity.

Brittney seemed to say more than 4 sentences on it, but even so, I would not have found it so offensive that they needed to turn off her microphone, and it in no way violated the establishment clause. It was 1 student's opinion, and as valedictorian, I think she should have been free to express it. She earned it.

And yes, each of the other stories mentions a graduation in which a valedictorian is quoted as mentioning God, and no one minded or was punished. Read them again, some of them don't mention it till toward the bottom.

[Spike-X]

That's it. 4 sentences. At most about 15 seconds of time. I'd hardly call that preaching or proselytizing.

I most certainly would. There's a time and a place to preach to people. This wasn't it.

And for that, her diploma was withheld, she had to write letters of explanation (and the school also wanted her to apologize!) I consider that nuts, and way too extreme a reaction to 4 sentences containing no profanity.

I'd consider the witholding of the diploma a tad over the top.

And yes, each of the other stories mentions a graduation in which a valedictorian is quoted as mentioning God, and no one minded or was punished. Read them again, some of them don't mention it till toward the bottom.

Yes, you're right. There's absolutely no difference between

I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him.

and

The speech closed with Watson declaring that Jesus is her personal God and savior.

None at all.

Oh, wait. There actually is a difference between a brief acknowledgement of one's own personal beliefs (why can't these things ever stay personal? Jesus, you Americans just love to go on and on about God), and preaching to a captive audience that they should share your beliefs.

[Trulyures]

[QUOTE] None at all.

Oh, wait. There actually is a difference between a brief acknowledgement of one's own personal beliefs (why can't these things ever stay personal? Jesus, you Americans just love to go on and on about God), and preaching to a captive audience that they should share your beliefs.[QUOTE]

IT's not just Americans I hope you know that share what they believe in. THey do that because they know it's all worth it. I know and understand what you are saying, but you shouldn't be pointing fingers....."You Americans..." There are people out of America who do the same exact thing. It's just that these might happen to be from America. It doesn't stay personal because it's not meant to stay personal. :)

[Brian Cronin]

What Erica Corder did, Samurai, pissed them off not because she thanked God, but because they were doing a rehearsed speech where each student would deliver a part of a big speech (there were multiple valedictorians, which is a pretty weak concept, by the way).

They rehearsed it, but come graduation, she went off script to give her speech.

That, in and of itself, certainly pissed them off, but their "punishment" was having her send out a mass e-mail to explain that she did it on her own, and that the speech, which was part of a GROUP speech, was done on her own accord.

In fact, wouldn't you be irked if you were the other valedictorians, who were delivering what you thought (and what you rehearsed as) was a group statement, and suddenly your group statement was a religous statement?

So what, exactly, do you think the school did wrong there?

-Brian

[Spike-X]

As an outsider looking in, believe me when I say America is the most God-crazy country in the English-speaking world.

That's why whenever I see crybabies complaining about how Christians are being persecuted in the US, and garbage like the "War On Christmas", I honestly have no idea where they're coming from.

[Royal]

Just another reason to say...

"I totally dig God, but I fucking hate his fans!"

[Samurai]

I most certainly would. There's a time and a place to preach to people. This wasn't it.



I'd consider the witholding of the diploma a tad over the top.



Yes, you're right. There's absolutely no difference between



and



None at all.

Oh, wait. There actually is a difference between a brief acknowledgement of one's own personal beliefs (why can't these things ever stay personal? Jesus, you Americans just love to go on and on about God), and preaching to a captive audience that they should share your beliefs.
How does hearing 4 sentences suggesting that they found religion helpful in their life and you might too, harm you? How is it any different from saying "I'd never have made it through the long nights studying without Starbuck's coffee, so thank you Starbucks, and I hope you guys all try a venti latte after graduation, I think you'll love it too!" Or maybe "My parents and family were what got me through school, so I hope that each and every one of you thank your family and try to build that strong a relationship if you don't have one, or make sure you don't lose it while away at college if you do. Nothing is more important than family!" Really, I see nothing different between examples like that and what Erica said.

She mentioned something that was important to her success, in her opinion, and like any valedictorian, offered advice for the future, including what she felt helped her. You don't have to agree with her, no one is forcing you to. But she earned the right to express her thoughts, and she shouldn't be forced to give a speech she feels is a lie or completely lacking a fundamental point just so some oversensitive people won't be offended by 4 sentences with absolutely no profanity or malice in them.

[Trulyures]

As an outsider looking in, believe me when I say America is the most God-crazy country in the English-speaking world.

That's why whenever I see crybabies complaining about how Christians are being persecuted in the US, and garbage like the "War On Christmas", I honestly have no idea where they're coming from.
IN the English Speaking world yes, but again America is most diverse in religion. We don't have just have so many Christians, but all kinds as well. If there is freedom in religion, then there shouldn't be any complaining. NOw if Christians force..... I'm totally against for I am Christian myself. People have to respect others with other religion and that's understandable why people wouldn't want to convert because of how they were raised.

[Spike-X]

How does hearing 4 sentences suggesting that they found religion helpful in their life and you might too, harm you? How is it any different from saying "I'd never have made it through the long nights studying without Starbuck's coffee, so thank you Starbucks, and I hope you guys all try a venti latte after graduation, I think you'll love it too!"

If a kid said that, I'd want to know how much they were getting paid.

[Trulyures]

I would actually be amused hearing that speech during a ceremony and even tape it.

[Spike-X]

I would actually be amused hearing that speech during a ceremony and even tape it.
Good for you.

I'd be sitting up the back, rolling my eyes, looking at my watch, and wondering when they're gonna pass the collection plate.

[Samurai]

What Erica Corder did, Samurai, pissed them off not because she thanked God, but because they were doing a rehearsed speech where each student would deliver a part of a big speech (there were multiple valedictorians, which is a pretty weak concept, by the way).

They rehearsed it, but come graduation, she went off script to give her speech.

That, in and of itself, certainly pissed them off, but their "punishment" was having her send out a mass e-mail to explain that she did it on her own, and that the speech, which was part of a GROUP speech, was done on her own accord.

In fact, wouldn't you be irked if you were the other valedictorians, who were delivering what you thought (and what you rehearsed as) was a group statement, and suddenly your group statement was a religous statement?

So what, exactly, do you think the school did wrong there?

-Brian
Theres' this:

Staver said the school had no authority to withhold Corder's diploma if she had successfully concluded her coursework and should not have asked her to write the e-mail to parents.

"I would say to her and her family that I apologize to her for her having experienced that kind of unconstitutional behavior from public school officials who are tasked with upholding the Constitution," he said. "What she did was absolutely protected by the Constitution."And earlier on, he made another good point:
"I think it sends a horrible message not only to her, but also the other students, that what she did is illegal and shameful."
Yes, she added 4 sentences to a rehersed speech, but they were not profanities or offensive in any way, and she was a graduating senior with a great record of academic achievement. Were I the principal, I would not have punished her at all... maybe a "that wasn't the speech I approved, young lady..." and leave it at that.

Had she instead peppered it with "Fuck yeah, let's get the fuck outta this fucking trash heap of a school, and screw you Mrs. Weebledowser, for giving me a C!", I'd have been far more angry.

[Trulyures]

Good for you.

I'd be sitting up the back, rolling my eyes, looking at my watch, and wondering when they're gonna pass the collection plate.
Seriously, think about it... Ok, I would sit through people thanking whoever they would want to thank, but never in a million years have I heard someone thank Starbucks and use one of their capuccino stuff as reference to why they are still awake and everything. I mean, a lot of people don't even pay attention to speeches anyways, just the person's name who's graduating and that's it. Also, the music that is provided...

[Wesley Dodds]

I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him.

I'd hardly call that preaching or proselytizing.

I'd call it both, yes. In fact, I don't know how you can say it isn't.

[Samurai]

I'd call it both, yes. In fact, I don't know how you can say it isn't.
Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?

[atoningunifex]

Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?

pros·e·ly·tize
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.

"I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him."

[Wesley Dodds]

No, "concerted, extended effort" has nothing to do with whether something is or isn't proselytising.

This has nothing to do with people being "become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God". It's about proselytising, not thanking God.

[Drew Van T.]

Had she instead peppered it with "Fuck yeah, let's get the fuck outta this fucking trash heap of a school, and screw you Mrs. Weebledowser, for giving me a C!", I'd have been far more angry.

She would have looked like less of a square that way, though.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?

I want if she spent that 15secs talking against Bush/Iraq or calling for more funding/less regulation on education from the government?

Off the speech is still off the speech.

[Zombienorthstar]

Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?


but she wasnt thanking him as her 'personal god' she was saying 'he is god, you dotn have him in your life? You should do'...

Im a Head Boy (British version of a valedictorian) in my year there are muslims, christians, hindus and sikhs...

Im atheist.

I didnt thank god in my speech. I didnt thank Charles Darwin in my speech either. The fact is your standing up as a representative of the student boy first and foremost...and rather than making it personal this girl stated it as fact....which it isnt.

You have a repsonsibility as a representative of your peers to agknowledge all of their achievements...not the achievements of a potentially mythical deity.

[Calybos]

I assume this is another cut-and-paste from a "Daily Conservative Outrage" site of some sort... heavy on distortion and misreading, light on facts.

But if it helps right-wing Christians portray themselves as victims (in spite of being in control of most of the frickin' country), I guess the reality doesn't matter. I wonder how many of these site-hoppers wish they'd been at an actual event where they were genuinely persecuted, just so they could validate their outrage?

I could've sworn there was only ONE guy on that cross, but a lot of right-wing zealots seem to be jockeying for the position.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I didnt thank Charles Darwin in my speech either.

And why would you?

He is to Atheism as orange is to car washes.

[Iangould]

I'd call it both, yes. In fact, I don't know how you can say it isn't.

Because that might leave open the implication that America isn't a monstrous tyranny where jackbooted liberal thugs constantly terrorise the tiny powerless conservative minority s(who are also somehow the overwhelming majority of the population) as they cower in terror awaiting the opening of the concentration camps.

[Dreadstar]

There was a specific clause in the rules for the speech saying in essence "no proselytizing."

The 4 sentences can be identified as proselytizing by the direct subject she was addressing. The subject moved away from the subject of god and into "you" (the audience). Once that happened, it became proselytizing.

Case closed and end of controversy.

She isn't even being punished for preaching, she's being punished for disobeying the rules, plain and simple. Much like the guy from my old high school who had his diploma witheld pending public apology for stepping up and saying: "I only have one thing to say, and it's to the wonderful faculty who made my education what it was: Fuck you."

See, she KNEW what she was doing was WRONG (ethical concept). It may not have been wrong within the theologic sphere in which she bound herself, but she certainly knew it was wrong within the boundaries of the secular.

[Charles RB]

Much like the guy from my old high school who had his diploma witheld pending public apology for stepping up and saying: "I only have one thing to say, and it's to the wonderful faculty who made my education what it was: Fuck you."

Now now, that was just an expression of free speech and only lasted for six seconds, clearly if the faculty are annoyed they're just being overly draconian...

[founder81]

"I'd like to Thank God. My faith got me to stay focused even in the turmoil times of young adulthood. Through all his guidance I was able to achieve my full potiential."

is hell of alot different then:


I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him.

[Zombienorthstar]

"I'd like to Thank God. My faith got me to stay focused even in the turmoil times of young adulthood. Through all his guidance I was able to achieve my full potiential."

is hell of alot different then:


Exaclty just as Iangould said if a young man had got up and said the following.

I need to tell you about something which is better than you could ever imagine. Its been around for thousands of years, yet is still all around us even today. This thing is gay sex. If you haven't already done it personally, I encourage you to find out more about it, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with men.

:D

[dougputhoff]

I wonder if Focus on the Family would be so happy if a valedictorian said that she gave all the credit to God and the Roman Catholic church--and that all other Christian churches were a bunch of garbage.

Or if she thanked Allah and hoped the Great Satan America would fall.

[Typo Lad]

We really need to rename the com board the "overreacting to non-issues" board.

[Forefinger]

We really need to rename the com board the "overreacting to non-issues" board.
If you just made that a thread, would anyone have the guts to post on it?

[Typo Lad]

I think there's only one way to find out!

[Forefinger]

I think there's only one way to find out!
Go for it. I'll post on it at least once.

[Dreadstar]

The year I left high school, the other Dux medalist basically "came out" when claiming his prize, and he said that he would spend the rest of his life furthering gay rights. I wasn't "offended" and I don't believe anybody in the crowd was overly offended either. Indeed, I -personally- would be quite offended if he was barred from presenting "gay propaganda" as you put it.

Ah, but you see, the difference is that the point of what he said revolved around himself. (if I read between the lines properly). He hadn't directly involved the audience beyond the passive.

Now if he'd involved the audience in the active (as the earlier mentioned young lady did), he'd probably heve been seen as being out of line.

[Grazzt]

I think there's only one way to find out!

And maybe Cronin will merge other threads (like this one) with it.

[Zombienorthstar]

Ah, but you see, the difference is that the point of what he said revolved around himself. (if I read between the lines properly). He hadn't directly involved the audience beyond the passive.

Now if he'd involved the audience in the active (as the earlier mentioned young lady did), he'd probably heve been seen as being out of line.


Exactly. If she had been relating it to her personally ' have found my faith helpful etc' or even have said ' i want to spend the rest of my time as a minister spreading my religion. then fine. But shes saying...you should do this because this is right...

[JeffreyWKramer]

There was a specific clause in the rules for the speech saying in essence "no proselytizing."

The 4 sentences can be identified as proselytizing by the direct subject she was addressing. The subject moved away from the subject of god and into "you" (the audience). Once that happened, it became proselytizing.

Case closed and end of controversy.

She isn't even being punished for preaching, she's being punished for disobeying the rules, plain and simple. Much like the guy from my old high school who had his diploma witheld pending public apology for stepping up and saying: "I only have one thing to say, and it's to the wonderful faculty who made my education what it was: Fuck you."

See, she KNEW what she was doing was WRONG (ethical concept). It may not have been wrong within the theologic sphere in which she bound herself, but she certainly knew it was wrong within the boundaries of the secular.

Between this and Brian's statement, the facts are pretty well-summarized.

[BlairH]

Exactly. If she had been relating it to her personally ' have found my faith helpful etc' or even have said ' i want to spend the rest of my time as a minister spreading my religion. then fine. But shes saying...you should do this because this is right...

A society that values freedom of expression would allow her the oppourtunity to say whatever she pleases. There is no right to "not be offended", if you don't like the fact that she is preaching, you are free to ignore her or challange her on her beliefs.

[Ryan Day]

A society that values freedom of expression would allow her the oppourtunity to say whatever she pleases. There is no right to "not be offended", if you don't like the fact that she is preaching, you are free to ignore her or challange her on her beliefs.

She does have the right to say whatever she pleases. However, no one has the right to assume whatever venue they choose for their speech. She was accorded a spot in front of the microphone for a specific purpose, and she deviated from that purpose.

It's less about a right than it is about a contract.

[Typo Lad]

They allowed her to say it, however, now that she's been allowed, she has to pay the consequences of going off script.

[Joe Rice]

She does have the right to say whatever she pleases. However, no one has the right to assume whatever venue they choose for their speech. She was accorded a spot in front of the microphone for a specific purpose, and she deviated from that purpose.

It's less about a right than it is about a contract.

Precisely. I am free to say whatever I want, but not every place is the appropriate venue for every statement. My classroom is not the place for me to discuss sex or religion. The valedictorian stand is not a place for speeches that the school nixed.

[Calybos]

There's a lot of high schoolers who read about "freedom of speech" and assume it means they can use any school platform, resource, or situation to exercise it.

They're wrong, of course.

[Zombienorthstar]

A society that values freedom of expression would allow her the oppourtunity to say whatever she pleases. There is no right to "not be offended", if you don't like the fact that she is preaching, you are free to ignore her or challange her on her beliefs.


Shes not there just as an individual. Shes there as a representative of the school and the student body. Not everyone necessarily shares her views. She was there for a reason and she misused her time.

If i was to give a speech for a charity or something it wouldnt be acceptable if i went off tlaking about soemthign totally unrelated to the point.

[Ryan K]

My brother's high school diploma was witheld for a couple days when he snuck a beach ball into graduation, blew it up, and passed it around. Even the teachers kinda chuckled. But he broke the rules. He had to write a letter to the school and my parents (who were amused) had to go in with him to deliver it to the principal before they'd give him his diploma. They broke the rules. The punishments were minor.

[Trulyures]

And why would you?

He is to Atheism as orange is to car washes.
I like that Analogy:D

[Trulyures]

My brother's high school diploma was witheld for a couple days when he snuck a beach ball into graduation, blew it up, and passed it around. Even the teachers kinda chuckled. But he broke the rules. He had to write a letter to the school and my parents (who were amused) had to go in with him to deliver it to the principal before they'd give him his diploma. They broke the rules. The punishments were minor.
Wow, this happened recently as well at my cousins high school. Everyone was very amused, but there was police, dean, and principle. They made it such a great scene and he had his diploma withheld from him as well.

[Samurai]

but she wasnt thanking him as her 'personal god' she was saying 'he is god, you dotn have him in your life? You should do'...

Im a Head Boy (British version of a valedictorian) in my year there are muslims, christians, hindus and sikhs...

Im atheist.

I didnt thank god in my speech. I didnt thank Charles Darwin in my speech either. The fact is your standing up as a representative of the student boy first and foremost...and rather than making it personal this girl stated it as fact....which it isnt.

You have a repsonsibility as a representative of your peers to agknowledge all of their achievements...not the achievements of a potentially mythical deity.
You say there were many religious kids at your school, and that it was your duty to represent them. If many of them feel that their religion was a major factor for their making it through school and keeping on their studies, do you think you fully represented them by failing to mention that?

Most valedictorians thank a wide variety of influences, such as parents (even if not every kid has one or both parents), teachers (even if many kids hated all their teachers), etc. Many of them also proclaim that in the difficult and stressful years ahead, remember to continue to rely upon those who love you for aid and comfort. I know my school's speakers did. So she includes God in that list. It doesn't really apply to me. No big deal, I'm sure it was uplifting to many others, probably the majority of folks.

[Joe Rice]

You say there were many religious kids at your school, and that it was your duty to represent them. If many of them feel that their religion was a major factor for their making it through school and keeping on their studies, do you think you fully represented them by failing to mention that?

Most valedictorians thank a wide variety of influences, such as parents (even if not every kid has one or both parents), teachers (even if many kids hated all their teachers), etc. Many of them also proclaim that in the difficult and stressful years ahead, remember to continue to rely upon those who love you for aid and comfort. I know my school's speakers did. So she includes God in that list. It doesn't really apply to me. No big deal, I'm sure it was uplifting to many others, probably the majority of folks.

This has nothing to do with the stories you noted.

The problem was not thanking God.

The problem was in preaching.

It's different. As a Christian, I'm quite aware of the differences.

[Dreadstar]

The problem was not thanking God.

The problem was in preaching.

This cannot be reiterated enough. The moment she made the audience the object, she began preaching.

This isn't even a slightly grey area, it's cut and dried.

It's going from "I have done" to "you need to do."

[Mike Smash!]

Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?She's not just talking about thanking her "personal God", she's making a sales pitch for him.

You made a Starbucks comparison earlier that wasn't accurate at all. She didn't say "thanks to Starbucks for helping me to stay awake and study", she said "Did you know that you could save a lot of money by getting a Starbucks giftcard? Starbucks has some great new coffees this week..."

She had a scripted remark and she veered from it into preaching at an audience. Wouldn't you expect the same response if I were a valedictorian and went off script to make a lengthy demand that we withdraw from Iraq immmediately or made an impassioned call for people to vote Green?

She took advantage of a school event to evangelize. A quick nod to her faith on script? Fine. Going off script four sentence call for people to become Christians? Not fine.

[Samurai]

She's not just talking about thanking her "personal God", she's making a sales pitch for him.

You made a Starbucks comparison earlier that wasn't accurate at all. She didn't say "thanks to Starbucks for helping me to stay awake and study", she said "Did you know that you could save a lot of money by getting a Starbucks giftcard? Starbucks has some great new coffees this week..."

She had a scripted remark and she veered from it into preaching at an audience. Wouldn't you expect the same response if I were a valedictorian and went off script to make a lengthy demand that we withdraw from Iraq immmediately or made an impassioned call for people to vote Green?

She took advantage of a school event to evangelize. A quick nod to her faith on script? Fine. Going off script four sentence call for people to become Christians? Not fine.
Once again, someone has failed to read what I actually wrote. I swear, this has reached epidemic proportions... I can set my watch to it!

How does hearing 4 sentences suggesting that they found religion helpful in their life and you might too, harm you? How is it any different from saying "I'd never have made it through the long nights studying without Starbuck's coffee, so thank you Starbucks, and I hope you guys all try a venti latte after graduation, I think you'll love it too!" Or maybe "My parents and family were what got me through school, so I hope that each and every one of you thank your family and try to build that strong a relationship if you don't have one, or make sure you don't lose it while away at college if you do. Nothing is more important than family!" Really, I see nothing different between examples like that and what Erica said.

How would the US withdrawing from Iraq or voting Green involve your academic success in school? These girls credit their faith with giving them the perseverance to study hard throughout school. You may disagree, fine. But it wasn't as completely off-topic as "Vote Green!" IMO.

[Mike Smash!]

How would the US withdrawing from Iraq or voting Green involve your academic success in school? These girls credit their faith with giving them the perseverance to study hard throughout school. You may disagree, fine. But it wasn't as completely off-topic as "Vote Green!" IMO.Her 4 sentences had nothing to do with school or academics, Samurai.

She was making a sales pitch for Christianity.

I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him.

Not a mention of her faith helping her focus or study. No mention of school. Just a straight out sales pitch. That's at least as off-topic as an anti-war or partisan remark.

And it's not about "harm", though the irony is that many of the types who scream "but it doesn't hurt anybody" are the first to bitch and moan if someone pitches at them for a religious or political viewpoint that they don't like.

She was told not to prosetytize and apparently did so anyway.

She went off script to preach at an audience, which is exactly like someone going off-topic and making a political remark. And just as inappropriate.

I can't believe you continue to cling to this misleading garbage, Samurai.

[Zombienorthstar]

You say there were many religious kids at your school, and that it was your duty to represent them. If many of them feel that their religion was a major factor for their making it through school and keeping on their studies, do you think you fully represented them by failing to mention that?

Most valedictorians thank a wide variety of influences, such as parents (even if not every kid has one or both parents), teachers (even if many kids hated all their teachers), etc. Many of them also proclaim that in the difficult and stressful years ahead, remember to continue to rely upon those who love you for aid and comfort. I know my school's speakers did. So she includes God in that list. It doesn't really apply to me. No big deal, I'm sure it was uplifting to many others, probably the majority of folks.


No i dont think i did...My speech was not aimed at how they'd got there...but where they were going. The fact is those who have a faith...have one...i think it woul be intensley patronising for me to stand over them and say 'and i bet you muslims are glad you had allah too'

My speech focused on what great individuals my class are. How we all had a strength of personality, a desire to succeed and a willingness. THe motivations for doing this differed from student to student and therefore it would have been foolish for me to mention them... more importantly my speech focused on where we were going. I thanked our teachers, yes...because that is something we all had in common...i represented the entire student body by being sure only to mention thigns that were pretty much unanimous....not be excluding anyone by mentioning one god in particular nor by being ultra pc byu mentioning every faith in the room.

[Deskad]

"Throughout these lessons our teachers, parents, and let's not forget our peers have supported and encouraged us along the way. Thank you all for the past four amazing years. Because of your love and devotion to our success, we have all learned how to endure change and remain strong individuals. We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. And we also encourage you, now that we are all ready to encounter the biggest change in our lives thus far, the transition from childhood to adulthood, to leave (our school) with confidence and integrity. Congratulations class of 2006."

At this point, had I been in the crowd, I would've told her to go to hell.

[Spike-X]

Throughout these lessons our teachers, parents, and let's not forget our peers have supported and encouraged us along the way. Thank you all for the past four amazing years. Because of your love and devotion to our success, we have all learned how to endure change and remain strong individuals. We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. And we also encourage you, now that we are all ready to encounter the biggest change in our lives thus far, the transition from childhood to adulthood, to leave (our school) with confidence and integrity. Congratulations class of 2006.

So, Samurai, can you show me the part here where she actually thanks God? Because I've read it a few times now, and I'm having trouble finding that part.

[dougputhoff]

We really need to rename the com board the "overreacting to non-issues" board.

This is NOT a non-issue.

This is a freedom of speech issue.

The Jesus Freaks such as those from Focus on the Family freak out if someone gets punished for evangelizing during a graduation speech. But they also freak out if someone isn't punished for saying something they don't agree with during a graduation speech.

They're a bunch of hypocrites.

[Zombienorthstar]

So, Samurai, can you show me the part here where she actually thanks God? Because I've read it a few times now, and I'm having trouble finding that part.

Exactly...god is at no point attributed to giving her 'strength' she never says her faith has helped her studies....she just says about Jesus as an add on

Somehthing she knew she wasnt supposed to do. If she felt this was unfair she should have refused to give the speech. If her morals and her right to speak about god are so important to her...then she shouldnt want to be part of an institution that doesnt allow her to say those. But she didnt do that. She went along with it...debatebly breaking a commandment in her deception...huh...irony.

[Grazzt]

So, Samurai, can you show me the part here where she actually thanks God? Because I've read it a few times now, and I'm having trouble finding that part.

It would be funny if after she was talking a giant hand came down, smacked her upside the head, and said "You forgot to thank me."

Now THAT'S how you get converts. :D

[Zombienorthstar]

It would be funny if after she was talking a giant hand came down, smacked her upside the head, and said "You forgot to thank me."

Now THAT'S how you get converts. :D

Exactly lol...if God wanted to spread the good news hed turn the water into wine alittle more often...;)

Float some miraculous power my way...not channel himself through an 18 year old girl...:D

[Brian Cronin]

Again, if you have a point to make to someone, just make it to them (and almost all of you have, by the by). Don't just start posting about them with other posters.

"Poster X, I disagree with you. I don't think you'd be concerned with this issue if it was about ____" is cool.

"Poster X wouldn't be concerned about this if it was about _____" is not.

Talk TO your fellow posters, not around them.

-Brian

[Samurai]

So, Samurai, can you show me the part here where she actually thanks God? Because I've read it a few times now, and I'm having trouble finding that part.
That applied more to Brittney, who spent more time talking about how inspirational her faith was for her in school (according to her interview, since they cut her mic and no one could really hear what she said anymore.) When you combine 2 similar, but not identical cases, some things won't be universal.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Preaching is not a proper part of government-funded events. It's particularly inappropriate as part of public school functions. I don't see why this is a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.

[Iangould]

My brother's high school diploma was witheld for a couple days when he snuck a beach ball into graduation, blew it up, and passed it around. Even the teachers kinda chuckled. But he broke the rules. He had to write a letter to the school and my parents (who were amused) had to go in with him to deliver it to the principal before they'd give him his diploma. They broke the rules. The punishments were minor.

Just another example of the rampant anti-beachball bigotry in contemporary America.

[Michael P]

Just another example of the rampant anti-beachball bigotry in contemporary America.
Won't someone please think of the children!

[Zombienorthstar]

Preaching is not a proper part of government-funded events. It's particularly inappropriate as part of public school functions. I don't see why this is a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.


Whats the quote....'Dont pray in our schools and we wont think in your churches'

[Iangould]

This is NOT a non-issue.

This is a freedom of speech issue.

The Jesus Freaks such as those from Focus on the Family freak out if someone gets punished for evangelizing during a graduation speech. But they also freak out if someone isn't punished for saying something they don't agree with during a graduation speech.

They're a bunch of hypocrites.

It isn't a freedom of speech issue in the Contitutional sense because students speaking at school functions aren't covered by the first amendment.

[Zombienorthstar]

It isn't a freedom of speech issue in the Contitutional sense because students speaking at school functions aren't covered by the first amendment.


She knew the terms. She agreed to them. Then she disobeyed them. This makes her a liar...thats a commandment breaker....

[Winslow]

Preaching is not a proper part of government-funded events. It's particularly inappropriate as part of public school functions. I don't see why this is a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.

Pretty much the bottom line . . .

Or even more straight forward. A student broke the rules and was required to write an email apologizing . . . big whoop te do . . .

It's unfortunate that in the so-called culture wars, these things get spun around to make someone look like a victim.

[Winslow]

She knew the terms. She agreed to them. Then she disobeyed them. This makes her a liar...thats a commandment breaker....

In fairness to her, it was probably a huge thrill to take such a risk, and she probably thought in her own mind, that civil disobedience was justified.

If it was my kid, I would praise her courage, but correct her judgement.

[Spike-X]

Your quote here

Because it's 4 sentences in a speech that also thanks others, and gives other suggestions for the future. 4 sentences. 15 seconds. That's a suggestion at best, not full on proselytizing, which IMO requires much more of a concerted, extended effort. Have we become so oversensitive that we can't let a high school valedictorian spend 15 seconds thanking her personal God and simply ignore it if we must?

is in reply to a passage quoted from Erica, not Britney. So I ask you again, if you would, to point out the part in Erica's speech where she thanks God.

[BlairH]

In fairness to her, it was probably a huge thrill to take such a risk, and she probably thought in her own mind, that civil disobedience was justified.

The girl's got balls!

[Mike Smash!]

Your quote here



is in reply to a passage quoted from Erica, not Britney. So I ask you again, if you would, to point out the part in Erica's speech where she thanks God.She doesn't and Samurai knows this.

He's connected the thanking of a "personal god" to the 4 sentences over and over and he's yet to admit that he either (1) purposely posted a misleading story or (2) made an honest mistake and posted this based on someone else's inaccurate commentary of it and now won't back off of it.

He's already tried unconvincingly to push the thanking off on another girls' speech.

The bottom line is that Erica was sharing the stage with other people, made aware that she wouldn't be allowed to prostletize in advance and agreed to it, decided to do so anyways and now faces the consequences of that action. Not for thanking god for her success, which she never did, which she did not do, but for telling the audience that they really ought to join her religion.

It was totally off-topic, innappropriate and the school did exactly what it said it would do to anyone who went off script. It cut her mic and made her apologize for it later.

[Spike-X]

Your quote here



is in reply to a passage quoted from Erica, not Britney. So I ask you again, if you would, to point out the part in Erica's speech where she thanks God.
http://www.peoplesrepublicofdis.co.uk/albums/album16/tumbleweed.sized.jpeg

[Johnny Morningstar]

I don't see the big deal. It's a graduation speech which means nobody is going to remember it by the next week.

If the valedictorian wants to have classmates talking about the speech by the ten-year reunion, they should try dropping a few f-bombs.

Besides, the school board should realize the graduates aren't students anymore but potentially a crapload of registered voters.

[Spike-X]

Hey, Samurai!

If you haven't noticed, there's a thread right now about a case of actual religious persecution going on. Just curious as to why you haven't shared your thoughts about that one?

[Samurai]

Hey, Samurai!

If you haven't noticed, there's a thread right now about a case of actual religious persecution going on. Just curious as to why you haven't shared your thoughts about that one?
Because the source for the story is a biased website that includes "Defending the 1st Amendment against the Christian Right" right at the top of the page.

Because many of the allegations are what 1 student said to another student, which is very hard to prove and happens all the time (kids call each other fat, gay, asshole, stupid, etc every day in schools all over the country. They usually pick on kids who are different in some way, and a Jewish family in a Christian town would probably get some namecalling)

Because the lawsuit is, like the stories I posted here, trying to impose restrictions by law on what can be said at a graduation ceremony, which I find idiotic.

And this long list of complaints about biased teachers in school, from the article:

# When Jane Doe complained that her non-Christian son "Jordan Doe" was left alone when his classmates when to Bible club meetings, district staff insisted that Jordan should attend the club regardless of his religion.
# The district schools attended by Jordan and his sister "Jamie Doe" distributed Bibles to students in 2003, giving them time off from class to pick up the books.
# Prayer --often sectarian -- is a routine part of district sports programs and social events
# One of the district's middle schools gave students the choice of attending a special Bible Club if they did not want to attend the lesson on evolution.
# A middle school teacher told students there was only "one true religion" and gave them pamphlets for his surfing ministry.
# Samantha Dobrich's honors English teacher frequently discussed Christianity, but no other religion.
# Students frequently made mandatory appearances at district board meetings -- where they were a captive audience for board members' prayers to Jesus.

I and many others have experienced the exact same thing, but instead of Christianity, it was liberal indoctrination. I've had teachers insist that conservatives are evil and rage on and on about them. I've had teachers put questions on final exams that ask you to regurgitate that drivel, and 50% of the grade in the class was at stake. I've been in a class where I was constantly called on by the teacher, several times a day, every day, to "provide the Republican response" to the teachers own left-wing talking points. I've been to club or group meetings that were supposed to be about a different topic, but turned out to be liberal bitch-fests. I've seen good teachers fired because they were "too conservative". Yet, nothing is ever done about that. So, in 1 tiny school districrt some Christians are overwhelmingly in the majority among both teachers and students, and are catering to the community's desire for some religion in the school? No worse (or better) than the thousands of left-wing dominated schools around the country... When will we see a real effort to eradicate that leftist bias in schools? Lawsuits? ACLU, where are you? Oh, only Christians get their knickers in a bunch...

[Charles RB]

So, Samurai, when was the last time, exactly, that you heard a former school board member suggest a parent might "disappear" like a person recently murdered & dismembered because both were in favour of praying? Or when leftie adults in an audience were quoted yelling at a sixth-grader to take off a cross they were wearing?

Because if you're going to suggest the situation Typo posted is exactly the same as the sort of thing American Christians deal with and you can't cite instances like that (or like all the other bastardly things quoted as happening to the family), then it's not going to work.

[Michael P]

So, Samurai, when was the last time, exactly, that you heard a former school board member suggest a parent might "disappear" like a person recently murdered & dismembered because both were in favour of praying? Or when leftie adults in an audience were quoted yelling at a sixth-grader to take off a cross they were wearing?
Or told to either convert from Christianity or leave town?

[Samurai]

Or told to either convert from Christianity or leave town?
It was callers to a radio talk show that said that, after the lawsuit was filed... hardly a stable group of people, and many radio callers have said far worse before on other topics, though of course it was idiotic...

[Samurai]

So, Samurai, when was the last time, exactly, that you heard a former school board member suggest a parent might "disappear" like a person recently murdered & dismembered because both were in favour of praying? Or when leftie adults in an audience were quoted yelling at a sixth-grader to take off a cross they were wearing?

Because if you're going to suggest the situation Typo posted is exactly the same as the sort of thing American Christians deal with and you can't cite instances like that (or like all the other bastardly things quoted as happening to the family), then it's not going to work.
Again, many of these are only coming from a website that openly admits to bias at the top of the page. The school board has denied most of the accusations. They weren't caught on film, the way the valedictorian speeches were... http://www.delmarvanow.com/bethanybeach/stories/20050504/2126307.html

[Charles RB]

Again, many of these are only coming from a website that openly admits to bias at the top of the page. The school board has denied most of the accusations.

True, but saying "they can't have been arseholes because they say they weren't arseholes!" isn't very convincing.

They weren't caught on film, the way the valedictorian speeches were...

Which, again, are a non-issue and will continue to be a non-issue however much people want to use them to claim they're being oppressed when they're not.

[JeffreyWKramer]

True, but saying "they can't have been arseholes because they say they weren't arseholes!" isn't very convincing.

Such "logic" seems to work just fine for supporters of the current Presidential Administration and its policies.

[Zero Hunter]

If the school had done nothing to her over breaking the rules all it would have took was one person in the audience to say they were offended and the school would have been libel. The school district would have been sued if they had not made it perfectly clear that they in no way endorsed her preaching or knew she was going to do it. They were just covering their own asses in this one by making her email everyone and holding her diploma until she did.

I personaly proably would have been bothered if I was in her class having to hear her preaching about Jesus, but that is just because I hate hearing anyone preach about any religion in places that it seems not right.

[Samurai]

True, but saying "they can't have been arseholes because they say they weren't arseholes!" isn't very convincing.

I didn't say "they can't be assholes". They can be. But right now we only have the word of a radical website, claiming to fight the Christian Right however they can. Most of the allegations are denied.

Personally, I think there was probably a very openly Christian atmosphere in the school, the way there's an openly liberal/leftist atmosphere in many other schools. The ones doing it see it as "perfectly normal", and see complaints as blowing things out of proportion, while those left out of the majority group see the implications everywhere, perhaps even when no offense is intended.

[Samurai]

Such "logic" seems to work just fine for supporters of the current Presidential Administration and its policies.
And who would that be, and how exactly?

[Michael P]

I didn't say "they can't be assholes". They can be. But right now we only have the word of a radical website, claiming to fight the Christian Right however they can. Most of the allegations are denied.

Personally, I think there was probably a very openly Christian atmosphere in the school, the way there's an openly liberal/leftist atmosphere in many other schools. The ones doing it see it as "perfectly normal", and see complaints as blowing things out of proportion, while those left out of the majority group see the implications everywhere, perhaps even when no offense is intended."You spin me right round, baby, right round, like a record baby right round, round, round..."

[JeffreyWKramer]

And who would that be, and how exactly?

All those who argue that Bush and his cronies couldn't possibly be in the wrong, despite evidence to the contrary, just because they've not yet actually gotten caught with their hands in the cookie jar - or, in some cases, even after they are caught red handed - and those who argue that if the President says something is legal or okay or true, we should believe him on the basis of claimed "classified information."

[Samurai]

"You spin me right round, baby, right round, like a record baby right round, round, round..."

http://www.carvingfactory.com/music/clubedge/rec-youspin.jpg

[Mike Smash!]

Samurai. Please. Using the links you posted yourself and even the bolded statements that you yourself highlighted, it's been shown that the girl at the graduation wasn't thanking God but purposefully using her speech to prostelytize directly to the audience.

Please just admit that you were mistaken instead of pretending the coversation didn't happen.

I've admitted I was wrong in the past. You can too. This girl was not a victim. She agreed to rules when she made the speech and she broke them. Just as I would have been punished for using my speech to make an equally off-topic statement about the war.

And I have seen no evidence of conservative Christians ever treated this way, no matter how much they seemingly cry to be the victim, despite controlling all branches of government and many of the school boards like the one in Typo Lad's story. And what's more, I see a hell of a lot more of these exact sorts of stories with findamentalist Christians getting extra privileges or being actively encouraged to pick on or preach at non-Christian students, cadets or prisoners.

[Samurai]

Samurai. Please. Using the links you posted yourself and even the bolded statements that you yourself highlighted, it's been shown that the girl at the graduation wasn't thanking God but purposefully using her speech to prostelytize directly to the audience.

Please just admit that you were mistaken instead of pretending the coversation didn't happen.

I've admitted I was wrong in the past. You can too. This girl was not a victim. She agreed to rules when she made the speech and she broke them. Just as I would have been punished for using my speech to make an equally off-topic statement about the war.

And I have seen no evidence of conservative Christians ever treated this way, no matter how much they seemingly cry to be the victim, despite controlling all branches of government and many of the school boards like the one in Typo Lad's story. And what's more, I see a hell of a lot more of these exact sorts of stories with findamentalist Christians getting extra privileges or being actively encouraged to pick on or preach at non-Christian students, cadets or prisoners.
That question has already been asked and answered...

Originally Posted by Spike-X
So, Samurai, can you show me the part here where she actually thanks God? Because I've read it a few times now, and I'm having trouble finding that part.That applied more to Brittney, who spent more time talking about how inspirational her faith was for her in school (according to her interview, since they cut her mic and no one could really hear what she said anymore.) When you combine 2 similar, but not identical cases, some things won't be universal.

[Gargus]

But come on you get free speech here......as long as it offends no one, anywhere, anytime, anyplace in any galaxy, oh yeah or sounds unamerican.

Long as you stick to those guidlines you can say anything you want!

Either its all ok or none of its ok.

[Wesley Dodds]

Of course, supporting the right to an opinion isn't the same thing as supporting the opinion itself.

[Adam Crocker]

Because the source for the story is a biased website that includes "Defending the 1st Amendment against the Christian Right" right at the top of the page.

Such as the court documents and newspaper article in PDF hosted on the site or the outside links, all of which I found at the bottom of the page because the top of the article had in italics "Links to articles and documents cited in our report appear immediately below it."

This biased like when you cite sources like Little Green Footballs that claim that the media is burying the Iranian President's remarks about the Holocaust through selectively citing stories, including making it look like one news agency didn't report on it when it did?

Because many of the allegations are what 1 student said to another student, which is very hard to prove and happens all the time (kids call each other fat, gay, asshole, stupid, etc every day in schools all over the country. They usually pick on kids who are different in some way, and a Jewish family in a Christian town would probably get some namecalling)

You mean besides the fact that a total two of those complaints deals with what one student said to another student and the rest of them deal with school policy and what actual parents said at a school board meeting, as well as parents testimony?

Congratulations Samurai. Just when I think you can't sink any lower you find something else that's indefensible to defend, no matter how much you have to discard the truth as you just did above.

[Samurai]

Such as the court documents and newspaper article in PDF hosted on the site or the outside links, all of which I found at the bottom of the page because the top of the article had in italics "Links to articles and documents cited in our report appear immediately below it."

This biased like when you cite sources like Little Green Footballs that claim that the media is burying the Iranian President's remarks about the Holocaust through selectively citing stories, including making it look like one news agency didn't report on it when it did?



You mean besides the fact that a total two of those complaints deals with what one student said to another student and the rest of them deal with school policy and what actual parents said at a school board meeting, as well as parents testimony?

Congratulations Samurai. Just when I think you can't sink any lower you find something else that's indefensible to defend, no matter how much you have to discard the truth as you just did above.
I'm not "defending" anything. IF it really happened, the harrassment and threats are wrong. But this is unproven allegations on a radical website which are being denied by the school. It's a little early to proclaim that everything alleged definitely happened how the radical website and the plaintiffs contend. There is often a desire to jump the gun before the facts are in, pushing your way to the front of the line to condemn some heinous action before it's even proven or investigated. We saw it with the Lacrosse team accused of rape by the stripper (now almost certianly didn't happen), and we're seeing it here.

Some of the allegations, like "The other kids went to Bible Club and invited me to go, but I refused and so sat alone doing nothing" are so minor as to shade my judgement of the motivations of the entire complaint. But if the more serious stuff actually happened, it was wrong.

[Adam Crocker]

I'm not "defending" anything. [...]

But this is unproven allegations on a radical website which are being denied by the school. It's a little early to proclaim that everything alleged definitely happened how the radical website and the plaintiffs contend. There is often a desire to jump the gun before the facts are in...

You claimed that the only source for the story was a "biased" and "radical" website that had court documents and newspaper links on the page, and then further claim that many of the sources for it were what students said to other students when they were patently not. You basically completely distorted the sources for the story in order to cast doubts on the validty of the claims against the school. How am I supposed to take it? Especially after hearing what you say Love in Action wasn't an anti-gay camp? Or when you said that the Guardian interview with Alabama lawmaker Gerald Allen was "extremely biased" for asking him to furnish examples of how homosexuals were assualting traditional moral values and noting that he could furnish none?

Meanwhile people point out that your claims about that one the students' who got their speech cut was merely thanking god were patently false. Yet you either ignore this and claim that it still happened until enough people have refuted it that you backpedal and revise your earlier claims saying "oh well the two cases were similar enough..."

Again, many of these are only coming from a website that openly admits to bias at the top of the page. The school board has denied most of the accusations. They weren't caught on film, the way the valedictorian speeches were... http://www.delmarvanow.com/bethanybeach/stories/20050504/2126307.html

Quoted from the article:

In the district response, officials do not directly take on prayer in schools, but deny almost every charge in the lawsuit with little explanation or dismiss allegations as vague or inaccurate.

And tell me, what examples are out there of this widespread liberal conspiracy against Chrisitianity in the education system?

[Clint Barton]

Here's something to consider re: teaching in college:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

[Brian Cronin]

Do NOT do this type of petty bumping again.

-Brian