Is Punisher a super hero?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

In your opinion is Punisher a super hero or not? Personally I would say no, I know some people would disagree that Ennis turned Frank into a psychopath, but you think about it, Punisher has been on a killing spree for 30 years, he may only kill criminals, but he is still a killer. If Punisher was sane he would just killed the mobsters who killed his family and then gone back to a civilian life, the only explaination for Frank's contiued killings of criminals, is that he is a psycho, so I don't mind Ennis saying that.

Personally I think Punisher works best fighting street scum, it be silly if Punisher had ray guns and fought Abomination. That is why all the Punisher series in the 90s tanked, Punisher seemed too goofy, the battle van was lame, too James Bond and I think Punisher works best as loner, he doesn't need someone like Micro and Frank fighting lame 90s villains like the Reevers is just sad. That's my two cents.

[shadow of a madman]

Hmmmm....I'd say more vigilante than Super Hero.

[Drakenred]

Actualy The punisher should be able to take out most of the lower ranked Villians. a Barret 99 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_m9916.htm) can take out most of spidermans rogues gallary with one shot each.

[Huzzah!]

Wasnt he an angel or some such for a while there? I vaguely recall having nightmares about that.

As for Punisher, he's just a grizzled old fart who logically should have been dead about 100 times over by now.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Actualy The punisher should be able to take out most of the lower ranked Villians. a Barret 99 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_m9916.htm) can take out most of spidermans rogues gallary with one shot each.

Yeah, but they have character shields protecting them and even without that, Frank would need the element of surprise and even then it be hard for him take some of the really powerful villains (Frank would need a really good shot to take down the Rhino.)

[Cephus]

Nope, he's neither super (has no super-human powers) nor a hero (he's a sick, sadistic murderer) so there's no way in hell he can possibly qualify as a superhero.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Wasnt he an angel or some such for a while there? I vaguely recall having nightmares about that.

As for Punisher, he's just a grizzled old fart who logically should have been dead about 100 times over by now.

Eh, Punisher has a character shield, like every other major comic book character, who cares?

[Gargus]

Nope, he's neither super (has no super-human powers) nor a hero (he's a sick, sadistic murderer) so there's no way in hell he can possibly qualify as a superhero.

Thank ennis for that. Murder, violence, sadistic acts, depraved throw away bad guys are his calling card now. There is not even a hero in there anymore.

Now go back to previous days of the punisher and I would brand him a hero who just stood outside the law, just not a superhero.

Lets hope that the new war journal can return him to his former glory.

But really punisher could be so very cool if they would just do him right. If they borrowed some things from batman he could be awesome. Like his resourcefullness, using the right tool for the right job (and no, little guns for grunts and big guns for the semi boss doesnt count), using his brains on occasions instead of high explosives and just basically anything besides gunning down faceless gangsters in waves would be nice.

He could go up against bigger guys besides some twerp named something stupid like "tommy two times" or "frankie the boss garbone" if only a decent writer who could inject some thought and story into old franky.

[Drakenred]

Eh, Punisher has a character shield, like every other major comic book character, who cares?Well Charater Sheilds have never ever helped the X-men.

Granted they seem to have some kind of X-Imortality going for them.

[Drakenred]

Yeah, but they have character shields protecting them and even without that, Frank would need the element of surprise and even then it be hard for him take some of the really powerful villains (Frank would need a really good shot to take down the Rhino.)Its very easy to have the element of Surprise when your in a prepared sniper posision fireing a rifle whos round is traveling faster than the speed of sound for the first 2500 Yards, litteraly the first thing someone being shot by that rifle will know is the round slaming into them.

[Ironspider]

depends on who view you look at i think
a family or someone who thought he is doin a good thing(wolverine i think) may think of him as a hero but people who cant see the good behide it(spider) think of his as insane

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Thank ennis for that. Murder, violence, sadistic acts, depraved throw away bad guys are his calling card now. There is not even a hero in there anymore.

Now go back to previous days of the punisher and I would brand him a hero who just stood outside the law, just not a superhero.

Lets hope that the new war journal can return him to his former glory.

But really punisher could be so very cool if they would just do him right. If they borrowed some things from batman he could be awesome. Like his resourcefullness, using the right tool for the right job (and no, little guns for grunts and big guns for the semi boss doesnt count), using his brains on occasions instead of high explosives and just basically anything besides gunning down faceless gangsters in waves would be nice.

He could go up against bigger guys besides some twerp named something stupid like "tommy two times" or "frankie the boss garbone" if only a decent writer who could inject some thought and story into old franky.

Well personally I don't like the fact that Batman has all that sci fi crap and I think it be silly Punisher started fighting Abomination with laser guns. Besides I don't see how Punisher is a hero, any way you slice it, he is still a mass murderer, who has been on a 30 year killing spree, the only good thing is he only targets criminals, it doesn't change the fact that he is a serial killer.

besides Punisher can't be like Batman for one good reason, character shields will not allow Frank to kill any major villains and Frank will just look like a dick if he kills a sorry loser like Stilt-Man or loser if he fails to kill Stilt-Man.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Well Charater Sheilds have never ever helped the X-men.

Granted they seem to have some kind of X-Imortality going for them.

They die, but they come back a year later, that doesn't count, anyone without character shield stays dead (like Turner D. Century).

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Its very easy to have the element of Surprise when your in a prepared sniper posision fireing a rifle whos round is traveling faster than the speed of sound for the first 2500 Yards, litteraly the first thing someone being shot by that rifle will know is the round slaming into them.

True, but they still have their character shields protecting them.

[Drakenred]

Charater sheilds did not save Namorita, Scott lang, Banshee, Foggy Neilson, Harry Osborn, Magik, Mockingbird, Moira Mactaggert, Karren Page, Gwen Stacy, and a few other people who are STILL dead in the Marvel Universe.

yesh fixed a typo.

[Serik]

Vigilante – that’s what Frank is.

And keep in mind MAX isn’t canonical; 616 Punisher doesn’t have to be anything like that version.

Anyway, I like the character – especially how he uses firearms and explosives. Too many other characters are afraid to get their hands dirty like that. Oh, and the guy’s a certifiable badass.

I agree, though, that Punisher needs a better rogue gallery. Taking out low-level thugs gets old.

[Bobster777]

Vigilante – that’s what Frank is.

And keep in mind MAX isn’t canonical; 616 Punisher doesn’t have to be anything like that version.

Anyway, I like the character – especially how he uses firearms and explosives. Too many other characters are afraid to get their hands dirty like that. Oh, and the guy’s a certifiable badass.

I agree, though, that Punisher needs a better rogue gallery. Taking out low-level thugs gets old.

I agree with this assessment. Super heroes live by a code that elevates them above the norm. They fight for what is right, but do not kill. Well, that my definition.

[Drakenred]

the problem with the punisher is that his Rogue gallery keeps ending up dead.

[Young Avenger]

Vigilante – that’s what Frank is.

And keep in mind MAX isn’t canonical; 616 Punisher doesn’t have to be anything like that version.

Actually, the MAX series is canonical. I remember Joe Q saying in one of his Joe Fridays that it is.

[estee]

I think he's on the very edge of being a superhero.

I've been following the MAX series for a while and I noticed that he adheres to all the mantras of the superhero...always defend the weak and oppressed, always watch out for civilians when your fighting...the only the he does differently is he kills the villain.

During "Mother Russia" (didn't finish it yet) he immediately bonds with the young girl, because he still has some good in him and the girl felt it and latched on immediately. His Delta Force partner on the other hand didn't bother, he was there to do a job and nothing more.

Fury himself said that Frank has limits that those in Delta don't.

Frank is a hero, but he's as dark as they come.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Charater sheilds did not save Namorita, Scott lang, Banshee, Foggy Neilson, Harry Osborn, Magik, Mockingbird, Moira Mactaggert, Karren Page, Gwen Stacy, and a few other people who are STILL dead in the Marvel Universe.

yesh fixed a typo.

Those are the exceptions, not the rule, there is no way way Frank will be allowed to kill a major like Doc Ock or even Sandman (he will be in Spider-Man 3.) Besides before 1996 you could have counted Norman Osborn in that list and until very recently Bucky as well, charascter shields can kick in at almost any time. Also most of the people you mentioned are supporting characters, villains always have stronger character shields than supporting cast members or second string heroes, unless they are lame.

[Serik]

Actually, the MAX series is canonical. I remember Joe Q saying in one of his Joe Fridays that it is.

Really? See, I've never got a definite answer on this and I know many people on the boards have asked about it.

comics.ign.com had a preview of Punny's Civil War tie-in and quote Marvel as saying this:

"Unlike its MAX cousin, Punisher: War Journal is set in the regular Marvel Universe. Spinning directly out of Civil War, Frank Castle begins targeting Marvel villains because the heroes are too busy fighting each other. The Punisher's playground has just expanded in this new, non-mature, ongoing title."

But I'll take Joe Q's word over that blurb.

[Young Avenger]

Really? See, I've never got a definite answer on this and I know many people on the boards have asked about it.

comics.ign.com had a preview of Punny's Civil War tie-in and quote Marvel as saying this:

"Unlike its MAX cousin, Punisher: War Journal is set in the regular Marvel Universe. Spinning directly out of Civil War, Frank Castle begins targeting Marvel villains because the heroes are too busy fighting each other. The Punisher's playground has just expanded in this new, non-mature, ongoing title."

But I'll take Joe Q's word over that blurb.

The thing is, the MAX series is set on the such darker corner of the MU. It's were they can tell Punisher stories which can't be told on the mainstream line. War Journal is just putting him back on MU proper. He never really left.

[Bobster777]

the problem with the punisher is that his Rogue gallery keeps ending up dead.

Yeah, true. It's hard to root for a guy who just keeps offing everyone, no matter how vile they are.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Actually, the MAX series is canonical. I remember Joe Q saying in one of his Joe Fridays that it is.

I question that, in MAX they retconed who killed Frank's family, it was no longer Bruno Costa and his men, but in the recent Punisher vs. DD mini, they showed Costa as one who offed Frank's family, so if MAX is canon, then there is a huge contradiction.

[StoneGold]

Frank is more of a pulp hero than a superhero. Which makes sense seeing as how the whole family being killed thing was ripped directly out of the Executioner books.

[Drakenred]

Those are the exceptions, not the rule, there is no way way Frank will be allowed to kill a major like Doc Ock or even Sandman (he will be in Spider-Man 3.) Besides before 1996 you could have counted Norman Osborn in that list and until very recently Bucky as well, charascter shields can kick in at almost any time. Also most of the people you mentioned are supporting characters, villains always have stronger character shields than supporting cast members or second string heroes, unless they are lame.

oh? then I take it that the Iron Spider Armor will be in Spiderman III?

Besides, Octavious Died in Spiderman II but here he comes charging full steam at Spiderman in one of the upcomeing issues.

And Scott summers is Alive and well on 616

Lets face it, the Movies are takeing place on at least 1 other Univers than 616, and they are probably not even takeing place in the same Univers as eachother.

As for your argument that most are not major Charaters, Harry Osborn was in many ways THE Top gun on spidermans Rogue gallery, and Gwen Stacys death was so big in Spider Man that when they recently revisited it the explosion of outrage over what they alleged that Qwen did will be visible in Andromida.

Besides if you have been paying attention some of the X books have turned into an outright slaugher fest when you have people with bombs and high powered rifles blowing the heads off of kids, 2 Mutants who have no qualms about killing anyone (in part because thats how their power works) or killing one of the major badguys.

[Bobster777]

oh? then I take it that the Iron Spider Armor will be in Spiderman III?

Besides, Octavious Died in Spiderman II but here he comes charging full steam at Spiderman in one of the upcomeing issues.

And Scott summers is Alive and well on 616

Lets face it, the Movies are takeing place on at least 1 other Univers than 616, and they are probably not even takeing place in the same Univers as eachother.

As for your argument that most are not major Charaters, Harry Osborn was in many ways THE Top gun on spidermans Rogue gallery, and Gwen Stacys death was so big in Spider Man that when they recently revisited it the explosion of outrage over what they alleged that Qwen did will be visible in Andromida.

Besides if you have been paying attention some of the X books have turned into an outright slaugher fest when you have people with bombs and high powered rifles blowing the heads off of kids, 2 Mutants who have no qualms about killing anyone (in part because thats how their power works) or killing one of the major badguys.

They will probably killing off a lot of the b-listers that escaped from prison during the New Avengers arc to make way for bigger and badder baddies after CW.

[Drakenred]

They will probably killing off a lot of the b-listers that escaped from prison during the New Avengers arc to make way for bigger and badder baddies after CW.Heck Not just the B listers but all the lamers and one shots that they kept comeing up with back in the 60s and 70s along with a mix of imposters and wanabees

Heck a lot of what Im seeing in many of the books nowdays are people that no one ever heard of before.

[Serik]

I hope they don't kill off Stiltman. There's something tragic about him being such a loser that the Kingpin won't hire him.

[StoneGold]

I hope they don't kill off Stiltman. There's something tragic about him being such a loser that the Kingpin won't hire him.
They've already replaced him. New guy has the Stiltman armor. Blame Kirkman.

[Drakenred]

They've already replaced him. New guy has the Stiltman armor. Blame Kirkman.Which almost makes him a bigger loser!

[Cavalry Tanker]

Laying it down here. (and I am pretty late to this line of discussion)

Frank Castle is the one major Marvel character that a normal person can relate to. Why, because he's human.

He substained a massive tradegy (even more then Peter Parker) which drove him to destroy criminality. What person here, with there comic book enjoyment, woundn't enojoy it if some guy wen't around establishing the justice that our laws won't allow (which, basically, is what our street level heroes like Spider Man and Daredevil do).

Frank represnts to me what a normal human being can do. Sure he's had Navy Seal (or was it Army Special Forces, don't know the cannon on this one) training, but still, real humans go through that stuff. And trust me, if a special forces guy (or any of the special operations forces) decided to go nuts on the criminal element, they'd be in world of hurt.

Last, and this an extension of the second reason isthat Frank manages to fight super heroes (befoe the Ennis age at least) and if not come out on top, at least tie the fight. It's proof that you don't need super powers to make a difference in the world, just have a (if obessive, maybe psycopahtic) goal. And I don't care what anyone says, Frank's goal of killing criminality is just, no matter his 'current' meathods.

EDIT: (to answer the original question) Punisher is not a Super Hero, nor a true hero (because of his methods), but he stradles that grey line, though not as noble as our major heroes, he serves a purpose. So what if his 'methods' are a litte more extreme then our normal heroes. He may not be saving the world at every arc, but he is bettering the world by destroying those elements of our society that do not deserve to live.

[Crash-Man]

Thank ennis for that.

Thanks, Ennis!:)

[The Master Meglomaniac]

oh? then I take it that the Iron Spider Armor will be in Spiderman III?

Besides, Octavious Died in Spiderman II but here he comes charging full steam at Spiderman in one of the upcomeing issues.

And Scott summers is Alive and well on 616

Lets face it, the Movies are takeing place on at least 1 other Univers than 616, and they are probably not even takeing place in the same Univers as eachother.

As for your argument that most are not major Charaters, Harry Osborn was in many ways THE Top gun on spidermans Rogue gallery, and Gwen Stacys death was so big in Spider Man that when they recently revisited it the explosion of outrage over what they alleged that Qwen did will be visible in Andromida.

Besides if you have been paying attention some of the X books have turned into an outright slaugher fest when you have people with bombs and high powered rifles blowing the heads off of kids, 2 Mutants who have no qualms about killing anyone (in part because thats how their power works) or killing one of the major badguys.

Doesn't matter if the movies are not exactly like the comics, Marvel is going to protect any villain that appears in the movie, just so they can have a million tie ins with him or her. It doesn't matter that Ock died in the movie, because he has mass media exposeur, Marvel is not going to kill him off and i doubt Marvel would allow Punisher to kill pff major Spidey villains, because that will tick off Spidey fans.

Also the only reason Harry has stayed dead was because the return of Norman Osborn made him redundant, the only way a major villain will stay dead is if he has been made redundant, like with Heinrich Zemo, there is no point in brining him back with Helmut Zemo running around, besides that major villains are never killed or stay dead.

[Cephus]

Thank ennis for that. Murder, violence, sadistic acts, depraved throw away bad guys are his calling card now. There is not even a hero in there anymore.

I don't think there's ever a time I would have called him a hero, even at the beginning he was just out for revenge. Now he's just a psycho and I just don't see the appeal at all.

[kane]

He is not super, becauseo he has no super powers. But he is a hero, because he risks his life to kill bad guys.

[Nitz the Bloody]

My personal definition of a superhero involves only three broad factors;

1.) An ability that is impossible in the real world
2.) An iconic name and appearance
3.) A strong moral code and desire to improve the world ( whether or not they have a good moral code is debatable, as is the case with Frank )

These factors mean that the Punisher is a superhero, because he has a power ( that he doesn't age ), he has the name and the iconic skull logo, and he is extremely moral in the most cynical sense possible. Frank Castle isn't exactly the best example of a superhero, but he is a superhero in my book.

Of course, I also consider a lot of popular fictional characters like James Bond, Buffy Summers, and Luke Skywalker to be superheroes, since they meet all those criteria. Perhaps I should create a more complex series of criteria?

[Citizen V]

I would say that the Punisher isnt really a hero like Spider-Man or Captian America,but more jagged.Like a previous comment,a vigilantie.

[Drakenred]

besides that major villains are never killed or stay dead.

Which is why the Punisher will be able to take out anyone he wants to so long as they are not needed soon. Because when a writer needs a Villian back they just have him get better. :rolleyes:

[DDM]

No, the Punisher is a cold, blooded vigilante. He actively goes out to kill the criminals.

[DDM]

Laying it down here. (and I am pretty late to this line of discussion)

Frank Castle is the one major Marvel character that a normal person can relate to. Why, because he's human.

He substained a massive tradegy (even more then Peter Parker) which drove him to destroy criminality. What person here, with there comic book enjoyment, woundn't enojoy it if some guy wen't around establishing the justice that our laws won't allow (which, basically, is what our street level heroes like Spider Man and Daredevil do).

Frank represnts to me what a normal human being can do. Sure he's had Navy Seal (or was it Army Special Forces, don't know the cannon on this one) training, but still, real humans go through that stuff. And trust me, if a special forces guy (or any of the special operations forces) decided to go nuts on the criminal element, they'd be in world of hurt.

Last, and this an extension of the second reason isthat Frank manages to fight super heroes (befoe the Ennis age at least) and if not come out on top, at least tie the fight. It's proof that you don't need super powers to make a difference in the world, just have a (if obessive, maybe psycopahtic) goal. And I don't care what anyone says, Frank's goal of killing criminality is just, no matter his 'current' meathods.

EDIT: (to answer the original question) Punisher is not a Super Hero, nor a true hero (because of his methods), but he stradles that grey line, though not as noble as our major heroes, he serves a purpose. So what if his 'methods' are a litte more extreme then our normal heroes. He may not be saving the world at every arc, but he is bettering the world by destroying those elements of our society that do not deserve to live.


If the Punisher was a real person, his vigilante career would be short. He would more than likely either kill himself or the SWAT team would kill him before he did any more damage. A vigilante is not equal to a hero.

[En Sabah Nur...]

Wtf @ being mad at Ennis cuz he made him more realistic

Punisher used to be the goofiest lamest corniest character, seriosly.

Now he's alot more belivable and fun to read.

I hope I never get to see frank in some lame costume with some stupid space gun going around shooting aliens or some crap.

totaly retarted

Decline
In 1995, Marvel cancelled all three ongoing Punisher series due to poor sales. The publisher attempted a relaunch almost immediately, with a new ongoing series title The Punisher, by writer John Ostrander, in which the Punisher appeared to willingly join and work for organized crime, and later confronted the worlds of the X-Men and Nick Fury. Writer Christopher Golden's poorly received, four-issue miniseries Punisher: Purgatory (Nov. 1998 - Feb. 1999) posited a deceased Punisher resurrected as the Angelic Agent, a supernatural agent of various angels and demons. The vociferous Punisher fan base sent hate mail and even death threats to Golden and Marvel.


RevivalThe 12-issue, darkly humorous miniseries The Punisher (April 2000 - March 2001) by writer Garth Ennis and artist Steve Dillon, under the Marvel Knights imprint, revived the character's popularity. An ongoing series (37 issues, Aug. 2001 - Feb. 2004), primarily by Ennis and Dillon, followed, succeeded in 2004 by an ongoing Ennis series under Marvel's mature-readers imprint MAX.



Oh yea...that damn Ennis really ruined the book *rolls eyes*

[En Sabah Nur...]

Thank ennis for that. Murder, violence, sadistic acts, depraved throw away bad guys are his calling card now. There is not even a hero in there anymore.

Now go back to previous days of the punisher and I would brand him a hero who just stood outside the law, just not a superhero.

Lets hope that the new war journal can return him to his former glory.

But really punisher could be so very cool if they would just do him right. If they borrowed some things from batman he could be awesome. Like his resourcefullness, using the right tool for the right job (and no, little guns for grunts and big guns for the semi boss doesnt count), using his brains on occasions instead of high explosives and just basically anything besides gunning down faceless gangsters in waves would be nice.

He could go up against bigger guys besides some twerp named something stupid like "tommy two times" or "frankie the boss garbone" if only a decent writer who could inject some thought and story into old franky.

LMAO @ former Glory...stuff like this huh?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/ArchiePunisher.jpg

HE WAS NEVER GREAT BEFORE! he was CORNY!



lmaooo what you just said you want would make the punisher the gayest chracter in marvel, sales would plummet.


why does every single book in marvel have to be about a hero? Why cant it just be an entertaining bok PERIOD?

[Huzzah!]

its impossible for Punisher to be cool unless the cheesyness of the character is the highlight

He is an action movie cliche

But i havent read Ennis punisher so i could eat those words...but even then.... i dont know.



Btw...considering it was happening everywhere in the 90s, did punisher ever get some bigger guns and shoulderpads?

[Jake V]

But i havent read Ennis punisher so i could eat those words...but even then.... i dont know.
Go find (and read) "The Slavers" trade. You'll eat some words.

[Joey Deadcat]

Punisher is an anti-hero. And I'm not sure about him being a psychopath - I'd think sociopath would be a more apt term. And calling him a sadist isn't accurate either. Like Ennis' Saint Of Killers character Frank just does what he does.

And the thing about the MAX series - why is it that once a writer takes a character in a different direction, stops bringing in other MU characters, and does stories they couldn't normally do in a regular Marvel book people start thinking it's not canon or in continuity or whatever you want to call it?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

My personal definition of a superhero involves only three broad factors;

1.) An ability that is impossible in the real world
2.) An iconic name and appearance
3.) A strong moral code and desire to improve the world ( whether or not they have a good moral code is debatable, as is the case with Frank )

These factors mean that the Punisher is a superhero, because he has a power ( that he doesn't age ), he has the name and the iconic skull logo, and he is extremely moral in the most cynical sense possible. Frank Castle isn't exactly the best example of a superhero, but he is a superhero in my book.

Of course, I also consider a lot of popular fictional characters like James Bond, Buffy Summers, and Luke Skywalker to be superheroes, since they meet all those criteria. Perhaps I should create a more complex series of criteria?

Punsiher does age, he is 55 in the current MAX series.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Which is why the Punisher will be able to take out anyone he wants to so long as they are not needed soon. Because when a writer needs a Villian back they just have him get better. :rolleyes:

I hate it when people come back from the dead in comics, it makes death seem meaningless. What's the point of Punbisher killing a villain if he is just going to come back a year later?

[Cephus]

My personal definition of a superhero involves only three broad factors;

1.) An ability that is impossible in the real world
2.) An iconic name and appearance
3.) A strong moral code and desire to improve the world ( whether or not they have a good moral code is debatable, as is the case with Frank )

By those criteria, Mickey Mouse is a superhero. I don't think so.

[Cephus]

If the Punisher was a real person, his vigilante career would be short. He would more than likely either kill himself or the SWAT team would kill him before he did any more damage. A vigilante is not equal to a hero.

In the Marvel Universe, every real superhero out there should have come down on Punisher and had him put away forever long ago. Punisher is morally worse than most Marvel villains.

[kel25]

I never could call Punisher a superhero at the same time he is not a villain. He is a man driven by his desire to bring all criminals to justice, much like Batman.

He also lives by a soldiers code. He has lines he refuses to cross at any cost, much like most heros. Although because he has a soldiers code he will go a lot further than those with a saints code. Because many don’t know about or ignore his code he is labeled as a psychopath. Sure he’s not completely sane but would a sane man wear colorful spandex and fight criminals?

Frank suffers from a long history of mixing him with spandex heroes which does not work. I used to look at him and see potential for a great character but sadly gets the joke treatment. After reading Enis’s work I can finally say that at least one writer out there knows how to work the character.

Anyway back to the main subject. He doesn’t fit in either category. If I had to label him anything I would go with vigilante. He’s using the devil’s hands to kill the devil.

[Cephus]

I never could call Punisher a superhero at the same time he is not a villain. He is a man driven by his desire to bring all criminals to justice, much like Batman.

Justice? Punisher acts as judge, jury and executioner. That's not justice, that's cold-blooded murder. Batman at least has the criminals arrested and tried by the criminal justice system. Punisher does not.

[Slade.]

Justice? Punisher acts as judge, jury and executioner. That's not justice, that's cold-blooded murder. Batman at least has the criminals arrested and tried by the criminal justice system. Punisher does not.

It's his idea of justice.

And it works pretty well actualy, you're just soft mayn, you soft :mad:

[DDM]

It's his idea of justice.

And it works pretty well actualy, you're just soft mayn, you soft :mad:

The Punisher is still a cold blooded murderer, a vigilante who is judge, jury & executioner. There's nothing heroic about it.

[Slade.]

The Punisher is still a cold blooded murderer, a vigilante who is judge, jury & executioner. There's nothing heroic about it.

....Where did I call him a hero?

And yes he is all that, that you mentioned, but he gets the job done :cool:

I wish there was more people like him in the real world :)

[kel25]

The Punisher is still a cold blooded murderer, a vigilante who is judge, jury & executioner. There's nothing heroic about it.

True he is NOT heroic. He is a man trying to do what he thinks is right. Some people feel rehabilitation is best for societies ills while some feel an eye for an eye is the solution. As long as he keeps his soldiers code I will respect the character and what he does. Once he crosses that line I will consider him a cold blooded killer that needs to be taken down.

[shaunyc56]

To me the Punisher is a hero, he is willing to keep people safe from a certain threat forever. More mainstream heroes are only willing to do it for a short time. If the Punisher had gotten to Bullseye before Bullseye had gotten to Karen Page Daredevil would be praising him like a god.

The Bullseye Vs Punisher was a great read also by the way, so I think that he is good up against some "super" villians. If any villian's main gift is use of guns or edged weopons I think Punisher should have at him.

Lets also remeber, these guys the Punisher greases are the worst of the worst, their status is not up in ther air, their not misunderstood, they are guilty criminals.

[zebop]

"Unlike its MAX cousin, Punisher: War Journal is set in the regular Marvel Universe. Spinning directly out of Civil War, Frank Castle begins targeting Marvel villains because the heroes are too busy fighting each other. The Punisher's playground has just expanded in this new, non-mature, ongoing title."

"New, non-mature, ongoing title..." Sounds like the non-caffeine version of Diet Coke. Guess that means no f-bombs being dropped or Frank rolling around with some top-heavy babe on top of him?

Shucks. :rolleyes:

The Punisher is not a super-hero. He's to superheroes what Vic Mackey is to cops in The Shield: somebody who doesn't just cross the line---he erases it.

I've always thought in a culture where pedophiles prey on children, gang members commit acts of mayhem in the street and violence and sudden death is a fear that too many people face, The Punisher is the only comic book character at times I wish existed.

Oh sure, he should have been killed 100 times over. Nobody can get shot, stabbed, beaten and tortured as much as Frank Castle has and still have all his body parts in place when he gets up in the morning. But the appeal of The Punisher is a primal one; he doesn't stop criminals. He ends them--once and for all. None of that Batman crap where he beats up the Joker, he gets out, kills a bunch of mofos, Batman beats him up again, throws him back into Arkham Asylum and we do the same old song and dance over again three months later. The Punisher would just put a clip in the Joker's chest and a couple behind his ear and be done with it.

Now that does tend to limit the rogue's gallery, but it beats the built-in redudancy of fighting these never-ending battles over and over into infinity.

The Punisher is a very straight-forward, straight-line, direct approach kind of guy. There's only bad guys and worse guys and both are the wrong guys in his ugly little world. Garth Ennis gets this and that's why I enjoy him stripping Frank down to little more than a joyless killing machine who doesn't fool around with pointless brawls with Wolverine and Dr. Doom.

I'm not surprised that some posters here think Frank is little better than the creeps he takes out like the garbage they are. But what they forget is Frank has never claimed to be better than the criminals he kills. He doesn't have a trophy room or even keep track of his kills anymore. That's not the point. He knows he's fighting a battle he can't win. He just has decided that he's going to make sure a lot of dirtbags won't be dying peacefully in their sleep either.

He's called The Punisher for a reason. It's not just a nickname. It's what he does. :cool:

[Baal]

I Think Frank is the kind of guy like the two main Characters in Bondock Saint's. They are killing Criminals the whole movie, and at the end, you see normal People talking about them. Some call them Heroes. some call them Villains. Frank Castle is the same. If your whole familiy was killed by some Criminals, and your back was broken so you have to sit in a Wheel Chair your whole life, I think you would hope the Punisher will...well.. punish the People who did this to you. The question is not, what he is, the question is, who is looking at him.

[Serik]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

[Cephus]

It's his idea of justice.

That's like saying Jeffrey Dahlmer's idea of justice. Or Adolph Hitler's idea of justice.

Punisher is a pathetic sociopathic loser.

[Cephus]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

Punisher would last about 15 minutes in the real world before every cop, thug and guy with a gun would put a couple dozen bullets in his head. Heck, they'd probably all help each other do it.

[Agentum]

more a vigilante.
And he is supposed to take out bad guys so i will live if he is in town:)

[kel25]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

In the town I live in now he would be out of a job. Unless he starts gunning for jaywalkers.

This is the real world and someone like the Punisher would never last. But if he was real and just as effective I could honestly say yes. I might not have lost a good friend to a stray shot in a drive-by. :(

[Serik]

I probably should've been more specific. Would you feel safer with the Punisher around as he is in the comics? (virtually unstoppable, minimal resistance from law enforcement, tons of weapons caches...)

[Michael P]

Frank Castle is the one major Marvel character that a normal person can relate to.
I don't relate to him. I do relate to Spider-Man. Does that make me abnormal?

And Punisher's not a hero, because he doesn't represent a societal virtue (unless you're one of those people who thinks a gun/violence fetish is a virtue). In fact, by representing instead one of society's vices, he's a textbook antihero.

[Haunt]

In the town I live in now he would be out of a job. Unless he starts gunning for jaywalkers.

This is the real world and someone like the Punisher would never last. But if he was real and just as effective I could honestly say yes. I might not have lost a good friend to a stray shot in a drive-by. :(


chances are that the Punisher's presence would escalate violence and lead to more people being shot, accidentally. he's not the cure for crime. he's a criminal, himself.

[zebop]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

Well, let's see....

Columbus police now say that early Sunday or late Saturday is likely when someone entered Jameila West’s home at 1500 Loretta Ave., slaughtering her and her three children.

An autopsy conducted yesterday showed that West, 27, died of a gunshot wound to the head, Franklin County Coroner Brad Lewis said. Her 10-year-old daughter, Jameire Ervin, was strangled, Lewis said.

Autopsies on the younger two children, 5-year-old Tre’vion Williams and 3-year-old Jakia Howard, will be done today, Lewis said.

Homicide detectives confirmed yesterday that their only suspect so far is Jason Howard, West’s 24-year-old former boyfriend from her hometown of Warren, and the father of Jakia.

Howard is being held without bond on assault charges in Trumbull County that accuse him of shooting two men in Warren on Saturday and Wednesday. He also is suspected in the killing of another man there on Monday.

http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/23/20060623-E1-04.html

Some dirtbag that never should have been out on parole goes on a rampage that leaves at least five people dead including children, and you want to know if I would feel safer if The Punisher really existed?

Yeah. I would. :rolleyes:

[*hardcoregeek*]

super no.hero yes.but as previously posted he is more a viglante.and is his own leader.

[ednemo]

I would love if the Punisher was running around my town. I live in Richmond, VA and there are so many scumbags here knifing each other and shooting each other, someone like the Punisher would be right at home.

And for the people who don't think people should be killed under any circumstance...let me just say that I have seen first hand that prison does not work. People go in for stupid crimes and come out thugs. I have seen it numberous times and if I was allowed to shoot criminals I would be right next to the Punisher doing it. The justice system does not work and if you have enough money you can get away. I would rather someone kill a rapist, murderer, or even a crackhead before they had the chance to hurt me or mine.

If you live in a nice little crime free town, then by all means, believe what you want. You would never understand the Punisher or his means to an end. But the Punisher is a hero to the people that get stabbed by crackheads or shot at by wanna-be gangsters. So, please, read Spider-Man...I do. I still love Spidey, but I also love the Punisher. And while I would rather go to dinner and watch a movie with Spidey, I would rather the Punisher be in my city watching my back.

[DDM]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

No. In my neighborhood, the Punisher would be murdering people going over 25 MPH. Occassionally, there is a meth lab bust, but it's rare.

[Cephus]

And he is supposed to take out bad guys so i will live if he is in town:)

Until you do something wrong, then he blows your head off. You never jaywalk, always come to a complete stop at a stop sign, never speed, etc? Frank would kill you for all of those and his only punishment is death.

So how does it feel to be a bad guy?

[Crash-Man]

Until you do something wrong, then he blows your head off. You never jaywalk, always come to a complete stop at a stop sign, never speed, etc? Frank would kill you for all of those and his only punishment is death.

So how does it feel to be a bad guy?


That's stupid and misleading. As are many of the anti-Punisher arguments, I'm beginning to realise.

The one time I recall Punisher going to those lengths was when some villain messed with his mind.

Punisher kills those who've immersed themselves in a criminal culture that necessitates the death or harm of innocents.

He's definitely pounced on people for minor offenses, but he doesn't kill them. He'd break a speeder's nose and blow up his car, but he wouldn't kill the driver unless his actions are murderously reckless.

[zebop]

Until you do something wrong, then he blows your head off. You never jaywalk, always come to a complete stop at a stop sign, never speed, etc? Frank would kill you for all of those and his only punishment is death.

So how does it feel to be a bad guy?

Gee, Cephus, have you ever even readan issue of The Punisher?

The logical fallacy of your argument is balanced upon the ridiculous notion that the Punisher punishes jaywalkers the same way he would a child molester. BZZZZTTT!!! Wrong. Would you like to try for double jeopardy?

If nonsensical arguments are what you're reduced to, then you're not contributing very much to the debate, don't you think? :rolleyes:

[Jack Zodiac]

the problem with the punisher is that his Rogue gallery keeps ending up dead.

That just means he's doing something right.;)

[Chiasm]

The Punisher is not a hero and god bless him for it. Punisher as he exists now in Ennis's world is a cold blooded vigilante and thats how it should be. Punisher was a complete joke in the late 80's and early 90's. How can you be a cold blooded killing machine who never actually kills anyone which is what they had to do all too often when they were putting him up against supervillians. Ennis finally made Punisher what he should be and its the best version of Punisher I've ever read.

Punisher isn't as good now as a few years ago in early Ennis Punisher but I think thats in large part due to the loss of the supporting cast. Detective Soap, Spacker Dave, and the rest brought a human element to Punisher even while Punisher was out killing bad guys.

I'm currently loving the Barracuda arc so hopefully its a sign of better things to come from Ennis.

[Jack Zodiac]

Here's a question: if the Punisher was running around in your town, would you feel safer?

If I weren't a drug dealer, pimp, or pedophile? Yep.

If.:rolleyes:

[Jack Zodiac]

Until you do something wrong, then he blows your head off. You never jaywalk, always come to a complete stop at a stop sign, never speed, etc? Frank would kill you for all of those and his only punishment is death.

So how does it feel to be a bad guy?

Y'know, I agreed with most of your posts before this one. Yes, Punisher's a criminal, and he's no better than the men he kills, but that's beside the point. He's Old Testament justice. Eye for an eye. Not eye for a candy bar wrapper on the ground. Get a ****ing grip.

EDIT: I forgot that this place doesn't censor.

[Bobster777]

Y'know, I agreed with most of your posts before this one. Yes, Punisher's a criminal, and he's no better than the men he kills, but that's beside the point. He's Old Testament justice. Eye for an eye. Not eye for a candy bar wrapper on the ground. Get a ****ing grip.

EDIT: I forgot that this place doesn't censor.

Yeah, and at the end of the day, I don't think Punisher wants to be seen as a hero. Right or wrong, this is just something that he decided he is going to pursue until he is killed or stopped by someone else.

[Cephus]

The logical fallacy of your argument is balanced upon the ridiculous notion that the Punisher punishes jaywalkers the same way he would a child molester. BZZZZTTT!!! Wrong. Would you like to try for double jeopardy?

You are aware that he did, indeed, shoot both jaywalkers and litterbugs back in his pre-Ennis days, right?

[Jack Zodiac]

You are aware that he did, indeed, shoot both jaywalkers and litterbugs back in his pre-Ennis days, right?

That happened once in my recollection. And that extreme was completely abandoned soon after.

Speedy did smack, once upon a time. Let's forever refer to him as Smackhead, even though he's been clean for decades. Spider-Man beat Firelord, he might as well be a herald of Galactus. Jimmy Olsen had super powers, once. We should retroactively recognize him as a super hero, now and forever. Or if you really wanna' overblow it, Spider-Man accidentally snapped Gwen Stacy's neck. Let's call a spade a spade and brand him a murderer.

Now, all of what I just typed was stupid beyond reason. So imagine how others view your posts about the Punisher killing people for rolling through stop signs.

[Crash-Man]

Yes, Punisher's a criminal, and he's no better than the men he kills...


How can that be true?

Punisher doesn't hurt or exploit innocent people, and in that regard alone, he's an entire universe above the men he kills.

And Punisher regularly (though not frequently) goes out of his way to help innocent people. That's heroism by any standard, even if he isn't a superhero.

I'm not getting these arguments.

I also don't get the contempt that some people have for the character.

[Crash-Man]

You are aware that he did, indeed, shoot both jaywalkers and litterbugs back in his pre-Ennis days, right?

The best account I could find. (http://www.thepunishercomics.com/fun_stuff/punisher/origin.htm)

While incarcerated on Ryker's Island, the Punisher was poisoned with mind-altering chemicals on the orders of the criminal gangleader Jigsaw, whose face had been horribly damaged when Castle hurled him through a window. The drugs had a delayed, cumulative effect -- slowly driving the Punisher mad. Following his escape from prison, he took to terrorizing minor criminals, such as litterbugs and jaywalkers. Subsequently, Castle underwent detoxification and returned to some semblance of sanity.


I'm not even sure he actually killed any of them.

So...do you plan to keep bringing that "point" up?

[Jack Zodiac]

How can that be true?

If one believes the old "eye for an eye" justice system is barbaric. Personally, I believe the best justice is a trial by jury and sentence for one's crimes. In that respect, every possible angle can be accounted for. A man who murders another man in a fit of rage can possibly see the error of his ways and be redeemed, while a man who murders methodically is sentences to a lifetime of solitude to stew on his crimes until the day he dies a sad, bitter old man. In that respect, flat out murdering a man for murdering another man makes you just as much a murderer.

Now, when I read comics, I put my personal feelings aside and read for enjoyment. In that respect, I like Frank's character. In a world where our justice system can be corrupted and bought, he delivers judgement to criminals and then punishes them for their crimes.

And as for the litterbug thing, he actually did kill people for minor crimes then. It was, maybe, two people, in two panels, in one book, over a decade and a half ago, by a hack writer who should have never been able to touch the character. Ennis has completely redefined Frank in a much more personal, believable way.

[Violently Apathetic]

I'd really like to read a story (if they haven't done it already) where the Punisher accidentally kills an Undercover cop or something, simply because I'd like to see how the Punisher would deal with it. Would he accept it as an accident and keep doing what he's doing (ignoring the potential hypocrisy) or would he have some sort of crisis of conscience? Considering his potential lack of communication with law enforcement officials its not exactly an unlikely scenario...

Anyway, I barely consider him much of a hero, much less a superhero. To answer a question posed earlier, no, I wouldn't feel that much safer knowing the Punisher was around. He's a competent lunatic with a gun that the police seem either unable or unwilling to capture; it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Though I can see what other people find appealing about the character I'm just not into that kind of revenge fantasy thing. Frankly it creeps me out.

[Joey Deadcat]

I'd really like to read a story (if they haven't done it already) where the Punisher accidentally kills an Undercover cop or something, simply because I'd like to see how the Punisher would deal with it. Would he accept it as an accident and keep doing what he's doing (ignoring the potential hypocrisy) or would he have some sort of crisis of conscience? Considering his potential lack of communication with law enforcement officials its not exactly an unlikely scenario...

Anyway, I barely consider him much of a hero, much less a superhero. To answer a question posed earlier, no, I wouldn't feel that much safer knowing the Punisher was around. He's a competent lunatic with a gun that the police seem either unable or unwilling to capture; it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Though I can see what other people find appealing about the character I'm just not into that kind of revenge fantasy thing. Frankly it creeps me out.

Well, he went after undercover female officer(or was she a Fed?) thinking she was a criminal in Captain America #241 and he has killed a corrupt cop who happened to be a senator's nephew.

[KOSLOX]

....Where did I call him a hero?

And yes he is all that, that you mentioned, but he gets the job done :cool:

I wish there was more people like him in the real world :)

If the punisher were real, he almost certainly would cause colateral damage, and accidentally kill innocent...making a real punisher a living nightmare.

[Crash-Man]

If one believes the old "eye for an eye" justice system is barbaric. Personally, I believe the best justice is a trial by jury and sentence for one's crimes.

Same here.

But at worst, I'd cite him as a legal equivalent of the men he kills.

Not moral or ethical.

[Young Avenger]

I'd really like to read a story (if they haven't done it already) where the Punisher accidentally kills an Undercover cop or something, simply because I'd like to see how the Punisher would deal with it.

In the Daredevil vs Punisher mini, Frank accidently shots a homeless man during a fight with Daredevil. When Frank realized that he was response for the death of an innocent the guy went into a nervous breakdown and started look back on all the things he did questioning if he was doing the right thing. Luckily for him Daredevil managed to get the homeless man to the hospital on time and knowing that the homeless guy would live Frank reverted back to his old ways.