Thunderbolts #103 - Civil War Tie In (SPOILERS)

[SincereAgape]

Didn't pick up the issue, but managed to flip through it a bit while in the comic store today. The cover is what really drew my attention with Zemo and Iron Man shaking hands.



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-Looks like in order to deal with the supervillians Tony Stark and Reed Richards make a deal with Zemo and the Thunderbolts. Zemo asks if Stark and Reed whether or not they wanted help to deal with Cap and his renegades. Iron Man says "No" we'll deal with Cap, but in the meantime that will leave the supervillians free to roam. Stark asks Zemo to capture the Supervillians and recruit them to the pro-registration side.

Zemo agrees and asks if the Thunderbolts can keep the baddies that they capture. Reed and Tony say that will be discussed later on. At the end of the issue we find that Zemo and the Thunderbolts have been capturing villians for the past few months and have already thought one step ahead.....

[Haunt]

why is Blob on the last page? he was depowered.

P.S. it would be fun to be one of the Thunderbolts. they really live it up when they aren't kicking @$$. and Joystick is hilarious; attempting to pry open the Beetle armor just to see if the girl underneath was hot.

[Expletive Deleted]

Heh. Some good banter this issue. And a nice "Ozymandius"-style moment for Zemo.

[Red Lotus]

why is Blob on the last page? he was depowered.



I saw that and it looked like he was depowered there too with all that skin hanging.

[Haunt]

I saw that and it looked like he was depowered there too with all that skin hanging.


but he was fat. his skin hung when he had powers. i think it was just a simple art error. they wouldn't have apprehended him if he weren't powered.

[Hiromi]

Liked this issue alot. Specially the banter during the Beatle armor fight.

[protege]

So is Thunderbolts going to be Justice league-esque in stature, with a rotating cast each issue?

[Haunt]

So is Thunderbolts going to be Justice league-esque in stature, with a rotating cast each issue?


more like Masters-of-Evil-esque.

[Kevinroc]

more like Masters-of-Evil-esque.

How can The Masters of Evil be Masters of Evil-esque?

[Haunt]

How can The Masters of Evil be Masters of Evil-esque?

they can't but the Thunderbolts can. it also depends on which Masters of Evil i'm referencing; Crimson Cowl's version.

[Michael P]

but he was fat. his skin hung when he had powers. i think it was just a simple art error. they wouldn't have apprehended him if he weren't powered.
As seen in Generation M, Blob is still active, even though his powers are gone. And the fat was still on his body there, too, just hanging loosely.

In any case, since that's apparently the Mimic next to him, it's possible he was just in the company of his old friend when the T-Bolts arrived for him, and they picked him up too. Or, and here's a sinister idea, Zemo offered him a chance to restore his powers.

[Sean Whitmore]

Something about this issue bothered me, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. It definitely had to do with Iron Man, though.

-He's begrudgingly accepting that the CSA had a point in attacking them? What point would that be? "Well we didn't invite them to our tea party this time around, so they were perfectly justified in attacking us."

-He doesn't trust Zemo, but he's willing to entrust (non-reformed) super villains to his safekeeping? On top of that, giving Zemo specific instructions to try and influence them? He doesn't see how that could POSSIBLY go wrong?

-Where does this "recruit the other villains to our side" idea come from? What, if Electro changes his mind, the world will follow? Is Tony gonna send Venom to kill Captain America? Why not just have the T-Bolts throw their super villain asses in jail where they blelong?

-And why is he using the T-Bolts in the first place? Have they signed up and become government employees yet? Are they PLANNING to? Isn't this something Tony might have felt was important to FIND OUT?

Didn't he used to be a genius?

On to the title characters themselves...veeeery nice shock ending, in classic T-Bolts fashion. I still want Joystick to die and Melissa to go away. That is all.


SEAN

[The Cool Thatguy]

Full summary anyone?

[Haunt]

As seen in Generation M, Blob is still active, even though his powers are gone. And the fat was still on his body there, too, just hanging loosely.


but his mass (which he obviously lacks in Generation M) is there as well in the T-bolts issue. how did you think i knew it was the Blob? seriously, i think it's just an art error unless the character was repowered in XFactor or something.

[NMoline]

I havent been reading comics long enough to know who all the villains are on the final spread. Can someone try and make a list? That would be greatly appreciated.

[Haunt]

-He's begrudgingly accepting that the CSA had a point in attacking them? What point would that be?


that the Avengers had become a lot like the Defenders; unstable mysterious characters acting unilaterally around the world without the cooperation with government that the former team had. Enemy-of-the-State-Wolverine was in the roster. "Ronin" was on the roster. Sentry, a convicted murderer at the time, was on the roster. the last time that they saw Tony, he was flipping out at the UN Assembly and threatened to murder a Latverian official.


-He doesn't trust Zemo, but he's willing to entrust (non-reformed) super villains to his safekeeping?



i think it has more to do with the Avengers lacking the resources and being too involved fighting other heroes to worry about the villains. besides that, Yellowjacket, Ms Marvel, and Gyrich were already working with Zemo before Tony entered the picture.

-Where does this "recruit the other villains to our side" idea come from? What, if Electro changes his mind, the world will follow? Is Tony gonna send Venom to kill Captain America? Why not just have the T-Bolts throw their super villain asses in jail where they blelong?


they don't have anywhere to house them, at the moment. the Thunderbolts do.

-And why is he using the T-Bolts in the first place? Have they signed up and become government employees yet? Are they PLANNING to?


apparently yes. Zemo has been working with the government since the beginning of the new run. Mach IV, Mel, and Fixer worked for the CSA at one point. Radioactive Man was a government employee when he joined. and, like Atlas mentioned, none of them have secret identities. this is a no-lose situation for them. all they can gain is legitimacy.

Didn't he used to be a genius?


genius isn't always doing what people expect you to do. just because it seems like Tony's making a dumb decision doesn't mean he is. and, not being able to see his thought balloons, who's to say that he does trust Zemo? maybe he's giving him enough rope to hang himself with. or maybe he trusts Songbird to do the right thing, when the time comes. he did work with the T-Bolts at one point.

[protege]

Something about this issue bothered me, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. It definitely had to do with Iron Man, though.

-He's begrudgingly accepting that the CSA had a point in attacking them? What point would that be? "Well we didn't invite them to our tea party this time around, so they were perfectly justified in attacking us."

-He doesn't trust Zemo, but he's willing to entrust (non-reformed) super villains to his safekeeping? On top of that, giving Zemo specific instructions to try and influence them? He doesn't see how that could POSSIBLY go wrong?

-Where does this "recruit the other villains to our side" idea come from? What, if Electro changes his mind, the world will follow? Is Tony gonna send Venom to kill Captain America? Why not just have the T-Bolts throw their super villain asses in jail where they blelong?

-And why is he using the T-Bolts in the first place? Have they signed up and become government employees yet? Are they PLANNING to? Isn't this something Tony might have felt was important to FIND OUT?

Didn't he used to be a genius?

On to the title characters themselves...veeeery nice shock ending, in classic T-Bolts fashion. I still want Joystick to die and Melissa to go away. That is all.


SEAN
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is NOT the Iron man we know and love.

[StoneGold]

At least now we know what the villains are doing during Civil War. Hanging on a wall.

[Haunt]

At least now we know what the villains are doing during Civil War. Hanging on a wall.

he's competing with the Collector.

[XPac]

To me the fact that the Pro-registration side is asking the TBolts to hunt down the villians show me how poor their priorities.

Instead of trusting Zemo to do this (and shock or all shocks he has his own agenda here they're not aware of... who would have thought), why not hunt down the heroes yourself? You're freaking superheroes and you're spending all your energy going after Captain America instead of REAL villians.

Even if Captain America is now technically a criminal, they should know him well enough to no he's not really a threat to anyone. At least not compared to the villians on the lose out there. But they're going after him instead not because he's an actual threat but rather because he's a POLTICAL threat. And that's what happens when you jump in bed with the government... politics and PR take priority over doing the right thing.

At least the TBolts are doing something, even if it is to a degree possibly villianous in nature. But if Iron Man has inadvertently helped Baron Zemo's master plan, then it's just one in a growing list of reasons why Marvel is better off without the registration.

[Haunt]

To me the fact that the Pro-registration side is asking the TBolts to hunt down the villians show me how poor their priorities.

Instead of trusting Zemo to do this (and shock or all shocks he has his own agenda here they're not aware of... who would have thought), why not hunt down the heroes yourself? You're freaking superheroes and you're spending all your energy going after Captain America instead of REAL villians.

Even if Captain America is now technically a criminal, they should know him well enough to no he's not really a threat to anyone. At least not compared to the villians on the lose out there. But they're going after him instead not because he's an actual threat but rather because he's a POLTICAL threat. And that's what happens when you jump in bed with the government... politics and PR take priority over doing the right thing.

At least the TBolts are doing something, even if it is to a degree possibly villianous in nature. But if Iron Man has inadvertently helped Baron Zemo's master plan, then it's just one in a growing list of reasons why Marvel is better off without the registration.

they obviously trust Cap enough not to send the Thunderbolts after he and his crew. and why is it automatically assumed that Zemo's intentions are evil? he's just convincing a bunch of villains that reforming is a good idea.

[StoneGold]

they obviously trust Cap enough not to send the Thunderbolts after he and his crew. and why is it automatically assumed that Zemo's intentions are evil? he's just convincing a bunch of villains that reforming is a good idea.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly what happened. Except less convincing, more brainwashing as a part of some other scheme, due to the whole stuck on the wall thing.

[Haunt]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly what happened. Except less convincing, more brainwashing as a part of some other scheme, due to the whole stuck on the wall thing.

Zemo's an ends-justify-the-means kind of individual. most of his actions look bad but produce good results. this isn't something new if you've read any of last volume (not counting the fight club stuff). he might be evil. he might just be evil trying to be good. but, as of right now, we have no proof that he's doing anything sinister. if Zemo is evil for putting a bunch of villains in stasis, then what does that say about Captain America (breaking the Vulture's nose) or Yellowjacket (shrinking supervillains and imprisoning them in a miniature jail)?

[StoneGold]

Zemo's an ends-justify-the-means kind of individual. most of his actions look bad but produce good results. this isn't something new if you've read any of last volume (not counting the fight club stuff). he might be evil. he might just be evil trying to be good. but, as of right now, we have no proof that he's doing anything sinister. if Zemo is evil for putting a bunch of villains in stasis, then what does that say about Captain America (breaking the Vulture's nose) or Yellowjacket (shrinking supervillains and imprisoning them in a miniature jail)?
Not disagreeing. The real problem with Zemo is he's been bad for so long, even his good is pretty bad.

[XPac]

they obviously trust Cap enough not to send the Thunderbolts after he and his crew. and why is it automatically assumed that Zemo's intentions are evil? he's just convincing a bunch of villains that reforming is a good idea.

Given Zemo's history, is there a reason we shouldn't suspect Zemos intentions to be less than pure? Him unleashing Purple Man, causing lords knows how many people to be raped and murdered in NY during Purple Reign at least in my make makes him lose the benefit of the doubt.

The closest thing he's done to a good dead is to save the universe by murdering Genis... and that was a mess he caused in the first place.

I'm sure they do trust Cap... but they're going after him anyways and that's the problem. They KNOW hes not a real threat but they're prioritizing HIM. This is why getting into bed with government isn't a good idea. Again, politics becomes the motivating factor over simply doing what's right.

[XPac]

Zemo's an ends-justify-the-means kind of individual. most of his actions look bad but produce good results. this isn't something new if you've read any of last volume (not counting the fight club stuff). he might be evil. he might just be evil trying to be good. but, as of right now, we have no proof that he's doing anything sinister. if Zemo is evil for putting a bunch of villains in stasis, then what does that say about Captain America (breaking the Vulture's nose) or Yellowjacket (shrinking supervillains and imprisoning them in a miniature jail)?

His actions are producing good results, but the problem is he's the catalyst for the problems to begin with.

He was the one that freed Purple Man in the first place. He freed Strucker and outright told him to go out and be bad so that he could save the world from Strucker himself. And again, he caused the problem with Genis before murdering Genis to fix it.

For Zemo it's not about doing good... it's about LOOKING good. It's basically Kabuki theater rather than actual heroism.

[Haunt]

Given Zemo's history, is there a reason we shouldn't suspect Zemos intentions to be less than pure? Him unleashing Purple Man, causing lords knows how many people to be raped and murdered in NY during Purple Reign at least in my make makes him lose the benefit of the doubt.

The closest thing he's done to a good dead is to save the universe by murdering Genis...


what about taking a blast meant for Captain America, doing his best to save Counter-Earth, or saving a few people from Gravitron? and should we really be judging characters by past bad behavior with so many of the Avengers being bad apples at one point? Luke Cage held a kid while his gang buddy stabbed him. Jessica Drew used to work for Hydra. Falcon was a street pimp. Hercules was a complete a-hole.

[StoneGold]

Given Zemo's history, is there a reason we shouldn't suspect Zemos intentions to be less than pure?
No one knows that Zemo was controlling the Purple Man though. Or that he caused the situation with Genis. And again, given Zemo's particular narcisism, all of that was probably part of his master plan to make the world perfect. Because, like I said, he has trouble with the whole do no harm bit.

[StoneGold]

For Zemo it's not about doing good... it's about LOOKING good. It's basically Kabuki theater rather than actual heroism.
The question is, what is he going to do once the world sees him as a hero? Zemo has some serious issues. I honestly think he wants to be a hero, it's just he's an evil bastard who only knows the worst way to go about doing it.

[XPac]

what about taking a blast meant for Captain America, doing his best to save Counter-Earth, or saving a few people from Gravitron? and should we really be judging characters by past bad behavior with so many of the Avengers being bad apples at one point? Luke Cage held a kid while his gang buddy stabbed him. Jessica Drew used to work for Hydra. Falcon was a street pimp. Hercules was a complete a-hole.

I don't really count blaming him for the Purple Man fiasco as judging him from past behavior. In comicbook terms that's probably a few weeks ago. Same with him freeing Strucker and outright telling him to cause problems so he can look like a hero and stop it.

This is CURRENT stuff.

[StoneGold]

I don't really count blaming him for the Purple Man fiasco as judging him from past behavior. In comicbook terms that's probably a few weeks ago. Same with him freeing Strucker and outright telling him to cause problems so he can look like a hero and stop it.

This is CURRENT stuff.
Yes, but other than Purple Man and Strucker, no one else knows about those things. So how are you going to blame Iron Man for not being privy to information set up by a nigh-omnipotent evil genius?

[XPac]

The question is, what is he going to do once the world sees him as a hero? Zemo has some serious issues. I honestly think he wants to be a hero, it's just he's an evil bastard who only knows the worst way to go about doing it.

Yeah... Zemo is one of those cases where I'm not sure the villian would know what to do if he ever did actually win.

As screwed up as it is, I honestly think deeps down he wants to be Captain America.

[Sean Whitmore]

Some good counterpoints, but here are some good counter-counterpoints. :)


that the Avengers had become a lot like the Defenders; unstable mysterious characters acting unilaterally around the world without the cooperation with government that the former team had. Enemy-of-the-State-Wolverine was in the roster. "Ronin" was on the roster. Sentry, a convicted murderer at the time, was on the roster. the last time that they saw Tony, he was flipping out at the UN Assembly and threatened to murder a Latverian official.


Was Sentry ever convicted of anything? I thought he'd asked to be locked away because he thought he killed his wife? (which he obviously did not)

What's wrong with Ronin being on the team?

I'm sure Iron Man was seen enough to have redeemed himself in the 6 months between "Disassembled" and New Avengers.

As for Wolverine, the best reason the CSA had for attacking the team...he wasn't even present for the beatdown.


they don't have anywhere to house them, at the moment. the Thunderbolts do.


Sorry, I mispoke. I wasn't referring to actually putting them in prison, I just meant why bother trying to recruit them? Why not just keep them locked up wherever the T-Bolts would keep them locked up?


apparently yes. Zemo has been working with the government since the beginning of the new run. Mach IV, Mel, and Fixer worked for the CSA at one point. Radioactive Man was a government employee when he joined. and, like Atlas mentioned, none of them have secret identities. this is a no-lose situation for them. all they can gain is legitimacy.


Maybe I'm misinterpreting the situation, but I thought the registration process would make the T-Bolts official employees of the government. Not guys who pop in, agree to help, and pop right back to their secret headquarters, location unknown to anyone.

Plus, it kinda seems like Fabe's earlier CSA stories in the series are only begrudgingly meshing with the CW storyline (and the rest of the MU period).


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

As screwed up as it is, I honestly think deeps down he wants to be Captain America.


Tooootally.


SEAN

[XPac]

Yes, but other than Purple Man and Strucker, no one else knows about those things. So how are you going to blame Iron Man for not being privy to information set up by a nigh-omnipotent evil genius?

I wasn't blaming Iron Man for not knowing those things.

Someone asked why is it automatically assumed that Zemo's actions are evil, and I was merely pointing out there's valid reason for US at least to assume his intentions aren't good.

Also, NIghthawk who was conviniently hanging with the heroes in Civil War at least for a bit should know MOST of what Zemo was doing. Swordsman revelated the Purple Man connection to the TBolts while he was there, and he also was around for him killing off Genis. Maybe Nighthawk doesn't care enough to talk about any of this with the other heroes (lord knows Carol and Hank don't seem to feel what they know is worth mentioning), but the info is out there for someone to connect the dots if anyone bothered trying.

[The Lucky One]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is NOT the Iron man we know and love.

You think he's Antonio Stark from Earth-4?

-D

[XPac]

I'm personally iffy about some of the rationale for the CSA not trusting the Avengers.

It's true that he tried to kill the president in Enemy of the State. But what was the next story arc... Wolvernine, agent of SHIELD. A freaking day after he tries to kill the president Uncle Sam is loaning him Sentinals. So I guess it's okay for the government to trust Logan, but not the Avengers.

And it's true that the Avengers took a Hydra agent into their ranks... but again SO did the government. Shes a freaking agent of SHIELD. Again, it's a case of the government trusting the person but it not being okay with the Avengers doing so.

As for Sentry... wouldn't they WANT the Avengers keeping an eye on him? Because if he does get out of control what are they going to do? Call the freaking Avengers, that's what.

[Haunt]

I'm personally iffy about some of the rationale for the CSA not trusting the Avengers.

It's true that he tried to kill the president in Enemy of the State. But what was the next story arc... Wolvernine, agent of SHIELD. A freaking day after he tries to kill the president Uncle Sam is loaning him Sentinals. So I guess it's okay for the government to trust Logan, but not the Avengers.

And it's true that the Avengers took a Hydra agent into their ranks... but again SO did the government. Shes a freaking agent of SHIELD. Again, it's a case of the government trusting the person but it not being okay with the Avengers doing so.

As for Sentry... wouldn't they WANT the Avengers keeping an eye on him? Because if he does get out of control what are they going to do? Call the freaking Avengers, that's what.

then maybe it's just Tony Stark who they didn't trust.

[StoneGold]

I'm personally iffy about some of the rationale for the CSA not trusting the Avengers.

It's true that he tried to kill the president in Enemy of the State. But what was the next story arc... Wolvernine, agent of SHIELD. A freaking day after he tries to kill the president Uncle Sam is loaning him Sentinals. So I guess it's okay for the government to trust Logan, but not the Avengers.

But he was Nick Fury's pet in those issues. And who is on the outs with everyone right now?

[XPac]

But he was Nick Fury's pet in those issues. And who is on the outs with everyone right now?

And now he's the Avengers "pet" for lack of a better word. Maybe in the government's mind they'd prefer him running around on his own without Avenger supervision... but in my opinion I think the Avengers are doing them a favor by taking in these lose cannons. It seems better than the alternative.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

So having never heard of the Thunderbolts (except for the in-joke at them in GLA), I came into this cold. I'm not entirely sold on the book - I like smaller teams, or preferably individuals - but if the next two CW tie-ins pan out well, I can see myself giving the title a try. It's weird, schizophrenic, fun... it could hook me.

I really liked how the opening was played, with the background tie-in to the events of CW#2 (I'm glad I decided to read this after CW#2, naturally) - that was stylish without being heavy-handed. The fight against Quicksand brought me up to speed well enough on the various personalities and abilities in the team - she's a neat-looking villain, by the way, though I guess the lion's share of credit should go to the colourer: her texture was great work, and really sold her physicality as 'real'. I was a bit surprised to like Songbird so instantly - just the powers, I wouldn't have thought that such a clearly-cut styled energy effect would look good, but it looked great. It was cute to see Swordsman again (after GLA#2), and especially Blizzard, who I'd last seen getting trashed in She-Hulk volume one #1.

I think I kind of love Joystick. Terrible superhero name, but still. I may pick up the previous issue, if it's still on the shelf and I can spare the cash, seeing as the letters page suggested she had a decent role.

I got this bizarre giggle out of Zemo's ending, menacing declaration - three whole weeks, huh? I can see he's trying, and he's got a decent bit of mastermind-cred, but... y'know, the man isn't Doom. It's just a bit funny.

Nice art, bold colours, I really like the combination of gradient and cel shading.

The story drew on pre-existing plot I don't know about, and served as set-up to the next issues, so all in all it's hard to comment on it. I'm looking forward to #104-5, but it's up to those issues to sell this little arc as a thread of the Civil War tapestry. I would've liked more explanation of Iron Man's intention to 'recruit supervillains' - okay, we saw Zemo outlining his plan to that effect, but is that what Iron Man had in mind, or what? That needed to come from Iron Man - it seemed a bit odd, that his big declaration is 'recruit', but in the next page he's talking as if he just means to incarcerate them.

[garin]

The fight against Quicksand brought me up to speed well enough on the various personalities and abilities in the team -

I found this painful.

"LET ME LOUDLY ANNOUNCE THE NATURE OF MY POWERS AS I USE THEM!"

I get that a lot of people will be picking this up for the CW tie-in, but surely Fabian could have come up with something a little more elegant.

The end of the issue was interesting, but I really didn't like Stark as portrayed here (and his position in the Civil War is the one I most identify with).

[Michael P]

For Zemo it's not about doing good... it's about LOOKING good.
And he looks MAH-velous!

[XPac]

And he looks MAH-velous!

Yup he does... I hear wearing a big red sock over your head is all the trend these days.

[Haunt]

So having never heard of the Thunderbolts (except for the in-joke at them in GLA), I came into this cold. I'm not entirely sold on the book - I like smaller teams, or preferably individuals - but if the next two CW tie-ins pan out well, I can see myself giving the title a try. It's weird, schizophrenic, fun... it could hook me.

I really liked how the opening was played, with the background tie-in to the events of CW#2 (I'm glad I decided to read this after CW#2, naturally) - that was stylish without being heavy-handed. The fight against Quicksand brought me up to speed well enough on the various personalities and abilities in the team - she's a neat-looking villain, by the way, though I guess the lion's share of credit should go to the colourer: her texture was great work, and really sold her physicality as 'real'. I was a bit surprised to like Songbird so instantly - just the powers, I wouldn't have thought that such a clearly-cut styled energy effect would look good, but it looked great. It was cute to see Swordsman again (after GLA#2), and especially Blizzard, who I'd last seen getting trashed in She-Hulk volume one #1.

I think I kind of love Joystick. Terrible superhero name, but still. I may pick up the previous issue, if it's still on the shelf and I can spare the cash, seeing as the letters page suggested she had a decent role.

I got this bizarre giggle out of Zemo's ending, menacing declaration - three whole weeks, huh? I can see he's trying, and he's got a decent bit of mastermind-cred, but... y'know, the man isn't Doom. It's just a bit funny.



yes, he's not Doom. Doom has never held on to personal power as long as Zemo. and Doom isn't half as personable as the good Baron. you should really be reading Thunderbolts. it's one of the more consistently enjoyable reads, imo.

[DoctorDoom]

His actions are producing good results, but the problem is he's the catalyst for the problems to begin with.

He was the one that freed Purple Man in the first place. He freed Strucker and outright told him to go out and be bad so that he could save the world from Strucker himself. And again, he caused the problem with Genis before murdering Genis to fix it.

For Zemo it's not about doing good... it's about LOOKING good. It's basically Kabuki theater rather than actual heroism.
niiiice.... kabuki theatre :)

[XPac]

yes, he's not Doom. Doom has never held on to personal power as long as Zemo. and Doom isn't half as personable as the good Baron. you should really be reading Thunderbolts. it's one of the more consistently enjoyable reads, imo.

I'm a fan of TBolts and all but you can't really put the Zemo character on par (let alone ahead) of Doom either as a character or as a villian. Darth Freaking Vader was based on Doom, that's how high he's up there. When Lucas starts creating films based on a villian with a giant sock on his head, then we'll start contemplating them on the same level.

Zemo has kept his powers this long because so far his actions have been incredibly pedestrian to be blunt... he's trying to make himself look like a superhero (an agenda many A list villians would laugh in his face over). The moment he actually does something with his powers is likely when the clock will start ticking on it.

[DoctorDoom]

I'm a fan of TBolts and all but you can't really put the Zemo character on par (let alone ahead) of Doom either as a character or as a villian. Darth Freaking Vader was based on Doom, that's how high he's up there. When Lucas starts creating films based on a villian with a giant sock on his head, then we'll start contemplating them on the same level.

Zemo has kept his powers this long because so far his actions have been incredibly pedestrian to be blunt... he's trying to make himself look like a superhero (an agenda many A list villians would laugh in his face over). The moment he actually does something with his powers is likely when the clock will start ticking on it.
You shall be made a king of whatever country you dwell, Xpac. Doom does indeed rule.

Thus proclaims Doom

[Haunt]

I'm a fan of TBolts and all but you can't really put the Zemo character on par (let alone ahead) of Doom either as a character or as a villian. Darth Freaking Vader was based on Doom, that's how high he's up there. When Lucas starts creating films based on a villian with a giant sock on his head, then we'll start contemplating them on the same level.

Cobra Commander

Darth Vader is the suck

Zemo has kept his powers this long because so far his actions have been incredibly pedestrian to be blunt...

he fooled everyone into thinking that the Thunderbolts were heroes, he duplicated Doom's universal mindcontrol maneuver, and his "pedestrian" actions at this point have basically put him on the top of the heap. he's a chessplayer; not an impatient blowhard like Doom.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm a fan of TBolts and all but you can't really put the Zemo character on par (let alone ahead) of Doom either as a character or as a villian. Darth Freaking Vader was based on Doom, that's how high he's up there. When Lucas starts creating films based on a villian with a giant sock on his head, then we'll start contemplating them on the same level.

Zemo has kept his powers this long because so far his actions have been incredibly pedestrian to be blunt... he's trying to make himself look like a superhero (an agenda many A list villians would laugh in his face over). The moment he actually does something with his powers is likely when the clock will start ticking on it.

Doom kicks ass yes, but don't diss Zemo. Zemo successfully invaded Avengers Mansion and made Captain freakin' America cry. Whereas Doom would try to take over the world with Purple Man, Zemo would rather build someone else up, topple them and have the world welcome him as a hero, savior and THEN ruler.

Zemo takes smaller and more careful steps, whgereas Doom has to yell his plans out to the world. Which do you think is smarter? ;)

[JuggernautRM]

Dont know much about Zemo. But from what I have read about Doom and stuff, I can tell he is insane, but he lets his arrogance, pride, and need to show himself as better than everyone else get the better of him.

[XPac]

Cobra Commander

Darth Vader is the suck



he fooled everyone into thinking that the Thunderbolts were heroes, he duplicated Doom's universal mindcontrol maneuver, and his "pedestrian" actions at this point have basically put him on the top of the heap. he's a chessplayer; not an impatient blowhard like Doom.

If ANYTHING I think Zemo is a rip off of Cobra Commander rather than the other way around.

Zemo is starting to be a player... but he is NOT at the top of the heap (that's frankly something you can't accomplish in the TBolts book with all due respect). The guy is a chess player in the minor leagues... Doom is a blowhard that can be impatient at times, but he's da man.

[Michael P]

If ANYTHING I think Zemo is a rip off of Cobra Commander rather than the other way around.
That'd be hard to do, given that Zemo predates the good Commander.

[XPac]

Doom kicks ass yes, but don't diss Zemo. Zemo successfully invaded Avengers Mansion and made Captain freakin' America cry. Whereas Doom would try to take over the world with Purple Man, Zemo would rather build someone else up, topple them and have the world welcome him as a hero, savior and THEN ruler.

Zemo takes smaller and more careful steps, whgereas Doom has to yell his plans out to the world. Which do you think is smarter? ;)

I think to ask who is smarter, you have to look at the bigger picture. I can respect how he's approaching his goals to a degree... I'm just not sure I'm terribly impressed with what he's trying to accomplish and why he's accomplishing it.

As sophicated as his methods are, his end goals seem pretty juvinile to me. The guy releases strucker and sicks him on the world just so Zemo can play hero and shut him down. An agenda like that is so beneath someone like Doom, it's not even funny.

Zemo is a great character that's very effective in comics, don't get me wrong. But he's not in Dooms league by ANY measurement.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I'm not dissing Zemo (hey, he's smooching Songbird, he must be doing something right), but... the guy isn't Doom. Doom may be insane and prone to making every mistake in the Villain's Handbook, but he's got style. He talks about himself in the third person and makes it work. I mean, my practical experience with Doom is limited to FF537 (and the old book with Squirrel Girl, of course, but even then he had style while he was being bent over and spanked), but really, "Even cornered, to my last breath I remain who and what I am. I will not hide, nor tremble, nor beg. Let the come and reckon with the fury that is Doom defiant."

The guy's a melodramatic head case, but he's a Shakespearean melodramatic head case - at least, in the hands of the right writer he is - and no amount of actual success can compete with that level of awesome.

[XPac]

I'm not dissing Zemo (hey, he's smooching Songbird, he must be doing something right), but... the guy isn't Doom. Doom may be insane and prone to making every mistake in the Villain's Handbook, but he's got style. He talks about himself in the third person and makes it work. I mean, my practical experience with Doom is limited to FF537 (and the old book with Squirrel Girl, of course, but even then he had style while he was being bent over and spanked), but really, "Even cornered, to my last breath I remain who and what I am. I will not hide, nor tremble, nor beg. Let the come and reckon with the fury that is Doom defiant."

The guy's a melodramatic head case, but he's a Shakespearean melodramatic head case - at least, in the hands of the right writer he is - and no amount of actual success can compete with that level of awesome.

Doom does make every mistake in the villians handbook because in Marvel he WROTE the villians handbook.

I can't agree with TBolt fans for thinking it's a diss to say that Zemo isn't in Doom's league... cause really who is? Maybe Magneto when Magneto is actually a villian... maybe. That's really about it.

[ruff]

I truely believe that the Thunderbolts will go back to being villians except for a few. I mean there is a reason heis collecting villians. I see this as what will end civil war. when Zemo starts a massive attack and it takes both groups to take him down. President declares amnesty and no more registration law.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I see this as what will end civil war. when Zemo starts a massive attack and it takes both groups to take him down.
I think that's a possibility - either that, or he's hoping to build such an effective, powerful superhero team that he'll be able to argue that the Thunderbolts should be given the task of controlling supervillains, rather than SHIELD, thus putting him on top of the pile superbeing-wise. But I don't think the attempt, either way, will be a critical event in Civil War - simply, if it were going to be, we'd have been introduced to the Thunderbolts in the main Civil War title, not solely in their own book. Civil War (the miniseries) has got to be able to stand entirely on its own, without any tie-ins, as a coherent story, so if there's going to emerge an antagonist that unites both factions of superheroes, it'd have to be something we've seen already in Civil War, like SHIELD.

[XPac]

I truely believe that the Thunderbolts will go back to being villians except for a few. I mean there is a reason heis collecting villians. I see this as what will end civil war. when Zemo starts a massive attack and it takes both groups to take him down. President declares amnesty and no more registration law.

I never thought Zemo stopped being a villian to be honest... at least not completely.

So yeah, I defiantely agree that another exodus from Zemo will probably happend down the line with Songbird leading a small team against Zemos army. Course, Songbirds team will likely be the TBolts so in that regard I don't think the TBolts will become villians... just Zemos pawns.

But as far as Zemo ending Civil War... I'll have to see greater involvement in his side of the story for me to conclude he's the catalst for indirectly resolving the whole thing. But there's plenty of Civil War to go to establish that.

[Cthulhudrew]

You think he's Antonio Stark from Earth-4?

I think this Tony Stark is the duplicate created by King Solomon's Frog during Priest's run on Black Panther.

For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if the current impostor running around in Black Panther was yet a third duplicate created by King Solomon's Frog.

[Haunt]

I think to ask who is smarter, you have to look at the bigger picture. I can respect how he's approaching his goals to a degree... I'm just not sure I'm terribly impressed with what he's trying to accomplish and why he's accomplishing it.

As sophicated as his methods are, his end goals seem pretty juvinile to me. The guy releases strucker and sicks him on the world just so Zemo can play hero and shut him down. An agenda like that is so beneath someone like Doom, it's not even funny.


The guy releases Magneto and challenges him to play hero and stop him from ruling the world. and Magneto does.

The guy challenges Magneto to a contest of wills in order to prove that the latter hasn't really reformed.

The guy tries repeatedly to kill the Fantastic Four because Reed Richards suggested that he had made a calculation error.

you seriously see Zemo's actions as more juvenile? for all you know, Zemo released Wolfgang Strucker as part of a larger plan to build Andreas up.


I'm not dissing Zemo (hey, he's smooching Songbird, he must be doing something right), but... the guy isn't Doom. Doom may be insane and prone to making every mistake in the Villain's Handbook, but he's got style. He talks about himself in the third person and makes it work. I mean, my practical experience with Doom is limited to FF537 (and the old book with Squirrel Girl, of course, but even then he had style while he was being bent over and spanked), but really, "Even cornered, to my last breath I remain who and what I am. I will not hide, nor tremble, nor beg. Let the come and reckon with the fury that is Doom defiant."

The guy's a melodramatic head case, but he's a Shakespearean melodramatic head case - at least, in the hands of the right writer he is - and no amount of actual success can compete with that level of awesome.


Zemo has style. Zemo has the shakespearean (not to mention Machivellian) thing going on. his latest evolution came only after he murdered his own father. doesn't sound like much until you consider that he had failed over and over again because he was still stuck as the vengeful son of a nazi scientist that Captain America defeated. he named the Thunderbolts after a poem. he fights with a sword. he lives in a castle. and unlike Doom, this quest for power didn't start until he was in his 30's. Helmut was a regular guy who went to college and got a job as an engineer; while having little to no connection to his mad scientist dad.

[Will.S]

Something about this issue bothered me, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. It definitely had to do with Iron Man, though.

-He's begrudgingly accepting that the CSA had a point in attacking them? What point would that be? "Well we didn't invite them to our tea party this time around, so they were perfectly justified in attacking us."

-He doesn't trust Zemo, but he's willing to entrust (non-reformed) super villains to his safekeeping? On top of that, giving Zemo specific instructions to try and influence them? He doesn't see how that could POSSIBLY go wrong?

-Where does this "recruit the other villains to our side" idea come from? What, if Electro changes his mind, the world will follow? Is Tony gonna send Venom to kill Captain America? Why not just have the T-Bolts throw their super villain asses in jail where they blelong?

-And why is he using the T-Bolts in the first place? Have they signed up and become government employees yet? Are they PLANNING to? Isn't this something Tony might have felt was important to FIND OUT?

Didn't he used to be a genius?

On to the title characters themselves...veeeery nice shock ending, in classic T-Bolts fashion. I still want Joystick to die and Melissa to go away. That is all.
You know, I was going to point out the same problems I had with Iron Man's portrayal here but you summed it up word for word for me. Iron Man using the CSA's excuse for invading the New Avengers as collateral haphazardly fits in with his Civil War reasons. It's fair enough that Iron Man still disliked the Thunderbolts doing their whole infiltration thing but Captain America was pretty much the sole reason why the New Avengers had any sort of clearance through both S.H.I.E.L.D. and the gov't as it was shown in Breakout. Iron Man, even though through all intents and purposes is working alongside S.H.I.E.L.D., should be wary of the fact that there is still something wrong with the organization as long as Maria Hill at the helm so hopefully this will be adressed somewhere down the line by either Bendis or Millar.

I don't see Tony's reasoning in thinking that the T-Bolts can convince them to join the cause as it doesn't make much sense short of mind controlling/washing them unless those villains convert to heroism and register willingly so that's a problem. I can see Iron Man giving Zemo a shot at redemption again especially after the Avengers/Thunderbolts crossover but like Sean said, hopefully if Tony is still smart, there's something in the back of his head saying "I should still keep an eye on this guy even if we gave him clearance to do what we're doing but on the villain side" because look at the final page already. What I'm also wondering is if the Thunderbolts have to register even though they are working with the CSA under Peter Gyrich and Dallas Riordian as they seem to have either slipped through the registration act cracks or they are due to register soon.

The issue was fine and enjoyable outside of that those issues though as it was great to see the original team of Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil together minus Moonstone. I also like how it references the constant Avengers/Thunderbolts continuity clashes and how it uses Civil War as a bridge to keep the registration side and the T-Bolts on the same level. The team is pretty well put together too even if their numbers are much higher than ever before.

All in all, it makes for a pretty relevant tie-in to Civil War proper and involves the Thunderbolts quite well.

[XPac]

The guy releases Magneto and challenges him to play hero and stop him from ruling the world. and Magneto does.

The guy challenges Magneto to a contest of wills in order to prove that the latter hasn't really reformed.

The guy tries repeatedly to kill the Fantastic Four because Reed Richards suggested that he had made a calculation error.

you seriously see Zemo's actions as more juvenile? for all you know, Zemo released Wolfgang Strucker as part of a larger plan to build Andreas up.



Yes. I do. I think his agenda is about making himself look like a hero (without actually acting like a hero). All that power at his disposal and his motivations and agenda still come off incredibly pedestrian.

I'll give Zemo credit, he's gone up several notches on the measuring stick... but Doom IS the freaking measuring stick. That's why I don't think anyone should take offense when people say Zemo isn't in Dooms league. As far as villians go, no one is. No one in DC, no one in Marvel. Zemo is a pretty good character, but Doom is an icon.

[XPac]

You know, I was going to point out the same problems I had with Iron Man's portrayal here but you summed it up word for word for me. Iron Man using the CSA's excuse for invading the New Avengers as collateral haphazardly fits in with his Civil War reasons. It's fair enough that Iron Man still disliked the Thunderbolts doing their whole infiltration thing but Captain America was pretty much the sole reason why the New Avengers had any sort of clearance through both S.H.I.E.L.D. and the gov't as it was shown in Breakout. Iron Man, even though through all intents and purposes is working alongside S.H.I.E.L.D., should be wary of the fact that there is still something wrong with the organization as long as Maria Hill at the helm so hopefully this will be adressed somewhere down the line by either Bendis or Millar.

I don't see Tony's reasoning in thinking that the T-Bolts can convince them to join the cause as it doesn't make much sense short of mind controlling/washing them unless those villains convert to heroism and register willingly so that's a problem. I can see Iron Man giving Zemo a shot at redemption again especially after the Avengers/Thunderbolts crossover but like Sean said, hopefully if Tony is still smart, there's something in the back of his head saying "I should still keep an eye on this guy even if we gave him clearance to do what we're doing but on the villain side" because look at the final page already. What I'm also wondering is if the Thunderbolts have to register even though they are working with the CSA under Peter Gyrich and Dallas Riordian as they seem to have either slipped through the registration act cracks or they are due to register soon.

The issue was fine and enjoyable outside of that those issues though as it was great to see the original team of Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil together minus Moonstone. I also like how it references the constant Avengers/Thunderbolts continuity clashes and how it uses Civil War as a bridge to keep the registration side and the T-Bolts on the same level. The team is pretty well put together too even if their numbers are much higher than ever before.

All in all, it makes for a pretty relevant tie-in to Civil War proper and involves the Thunderbolts quite well.


The TBolts are pre-registered in the sense that their identities are already known. But there is the aspect of training or proving you have a certain level of skill necessary to go out there and work. That part is perhaps where the TBolts can slip through the cracks... they've already worked for the government anyways.

I don't think Tony actually expects the TBolts to reform all those villians they capture... he probably just wanted them to take up the slack he and his buddies are leaving because they're more interested in hunting down other heroes than dealing with real villians. And Zemo effectively solves that problem in his own way.

[Haunt]

Yes. I do. I think his agenda is about making himself look like a hero (without actually acting like a hero). All that power at his disposal and his motivations and agenda still come off incredibly pedestrian.


his agenda is to save the world by ruling it; same as Doom. but Doom, more often than not, gets sidetracked by his immature grudge with the Fantastic Four. Zemo has evolved beyond his initial grudge with Captain America and the Thunderbolts. so that would put Zemo a step ahead.

I'll give Zemo credit, he's gone up several notches on the measuring stick... but Doom IS the freaking measuring stick. That's why I don't think anyone should take offense when people say Zemo isn't in Dooms league. As far as villians go, no one is. No one in DC, no one in Marvel. Zemo is a pretty good character, but Doom is an icon.

he's only the measuring stick because he's old as dirt, imo. realistically, Marvel's version of Satan should be the measuring stick since he's responsible for Doom being the way he is.

[XPac]

his agenda is to save the world by ruling it; same as Doom. but Doom, more often than not, gets sidetracked by his immature grudge with the Fantastic Four. Zemo has evolved beyond his initial grudge with Captain America and the Thunderbolts. so that would put Zemo a step ahead.



he's only the measuring stick because he's old as dirt, imo. realistically, Marvel's version of Satan should be the measuring stick since he's responsible for Doom being the way he is.

Well, like I said... Zemo's agende now seems less about saving or ruling the world, and more about making himself look like a hero. If he was really interested in saving the world, he wouldn't be threatening it in the process.... that's why I described it as Kabuki theater. He's just putting on this little play for everyone and trying to make himself the star.

And as for Mephisto (I'm assuming he's who you're refering to as far as Satan), Doom actually ended up getting the better of Mephisto. And he did it as a man, rather than some uber cosmic being.

[Sean Whitmore]

The TBolts are pre-registered in the sense that their identities are already known. But there is the aspect of training or proving you have a certain level of skill necessary to go out there and work. That part is perhaps where the TBolts can slip through the cracks... they've already worked for the government anyways.


So has Cap, and look where he is. :)

Thats' why the T-Bolts feel unregistered to me. Yeah, their identities are known, but that's just the smallest part of the Registration Act. With super-Zemo leading the team and their hidden headquaters, they are completely unaccountable for their actions.


I don't think Tony actually expects the TBolts to reform all those villians they capture... he probably just wanted them to take up the slack he and his buddies are leaving because they're more interested in hunting down other heroes than dealing with real villians. And Zemo effectively solves that problem in his own way.


That could be interesting, if true. Tony had no belief that Zemo could sway any of them, but telling him that's the agenda might appeal to his ego and make him seem less like a common mercenary.


SEAN

[XPac]

So has Cap, and look where he is. :)

Thats' why the T-Bolts feel unregistered to me. Yeah, their identities are known, but that's just the smallest part of the Registration Act. With super-Zemo leading the team and their hidden headquaters, they are completely unaccountable for their actions.


That could be interesting, if true. Tony had no belief that Zemo could sway any of them, but telling him that's the agenda might appeal to his ego and make him seem less like a common mercenary.


SEAN

The difference between Cap and the TBolts is that they're willing to play ball with the government. They proved that long before Civil War even occured when they jumped the Avengers. Even now with Zemo, they are still heeding the governments request.

Zemo wants the TBolts to look like heroes in the eyes of the public and the government. So he'll dance to their tune as long as it suits his needs. That may and probably will change but right now they're on the same page at least superficially... Cap and the governemtn obviously are not.

I'm sure the government (Gyrich in particular) is basically sitting there waiting for Zemo to turn on them. But right now Zemo and the TBolts are doing what the government wants, and they need all the help they can get.

[Haunt]

Well, like I said... Zemo's agende now seems less about saving or ruling the world, and more about making himself look like a hero. If he was really interested in saving the world, he wouldn't be threatening it in the process.... that's why I described it as Kabuki theater. He's just putting on this little play for everyone and trying to make himself the star.

And as for Mephisto (I'm assuming he's who you're refering to as far as Satan), Doom actually ended up getting the better of Mephisto. And he did it as a man, rather than some uber cosmic being.

and then got punked by a handful of lesser demons.

[XPac]

and then got punked by a handful of lesser demons.

And after couragously fighting them off, he eventually overcame that too as he has overcome everything else. That's what makes him Doom.

[Haunt]

And after couragously fighting them off, he eventually overcame that too as he has overcome everything else. That's what makes him Doom.

"courageously fighting them off?" he was in league with them. he sacrificed baby Val and Franklin to them.

[XPac]

"courageously fighting them off?" he was in league with them. he sacrificed baby Val and Franklin to them.

Yeah, he was courageously fighting them off.

They showed him doing that in that whole FF storyline where he returned with Thor's hammer. He was in hell fighting off the demons. His armor was trashed and without power, and he was ready to go down fighting till the hammer gave him a way out.

He's a villian, but they add a few traits normally found in heroes into the mix which is why Doom is one of the more respected villians despite his obvious flaws. He'll go down fighting with the heart of a hero, despite being an absolute bastard.

[Babylon23]

Love this book, and loved this issue. For me, T-Bolts is Marvel's best team book at the moment.

Just a quick point about the CSA's distrust of the New Avengers. If you look at the history of the Avengers, you'll find that the US Government has always sought a certain level of control over the team. Back in the late 70's, they even forced the team to limit thewir membership to 7, fire Hawkeye, and accept the Falcon on the team.

The New Avengers has formed without US or UN backing, and the government has little control over the group. They haven't approved the membership or the charter. Effectively they're a rogue element, and the CSA is upset about that. Given this, I think it makes perfect sense for CSA to use the T-Bolts to send a message to the team.

As for using the T-Bolts to hunt down criminals, as Xpac pointed out, the T-Bolts have proven their willingness to play ball with the government. Also, as former criminals themselves, they have an understanding of how the criminal element works. They know the hidden lairs, the underworld contacts, etc. I can understand the government's desire to use this team given these points.

Iron Man and the rest of the pro-registration heroes have enough on their hands without looking for the villains as well. Another good reason to call on one of the few remaining hero teams out there.

Now, as for Zemo, I don't think anybody really trusts him, but these are dangerous times, and he's teh best option they have right now. I'm sure they're keeping a close eye on him.

[XPac]

Love this book, and loved this issue. For me, T-Bolts is Marvel's best team book at the moment.

Just a quick point about the CSA's distrust of the New Avengers. If you look at the history of the Avengers, you'll find that the US Government has always sought a certain level of control over the team. Back in the late 70's, they even forced the team to limit thewir membership to 7, fire Hawkeye, and accept the Falcon on the team.

The New Avengers has formed without US or UN backing, and the government has little control over the group. They haven't approved the membership or the charter. Effectively they're a rogue element, and the CSA is upset about that. Given this, I think it makes perfect sense for CSA to use the T-Bolts to send a message to the team.

As for using the T-Bolts to hunt down criminals, as Xpac pointed out, the T-Bolts have proven their willingness to play ball with the government. Also, as former criminals themselves, they have an understanding of how the criminal element works. They know the hidden lairs, the underworld contacts, etc. I can understand the government's desire to use this team given these points.

Iron Man and the rest of the pro-registration heroes have enough on their hands without looking for the villains as well. Another good reason to call on one of the few remaining hero teams out there.

Now, as for Zemo, I don't think anybody really trusts him, but these are dangerous times, and he's teh best option they have right now. I'm sure they're keeping a close eye on him.

See, the flaw I have always had about the whole "send them a message" mentality is that there really is no point.

All it does is make a situation already filled with mistrust worse. The Avengers won't do anything differently just because they got beat up. If anything now they'll be LESS willing to cooperate with the government. So how is the situation improved by sending them a message? It's not. The whole thing was pointless.

[Haunt]

Yeah, he was courageously fighting them off.

They showed him doing that in that whole FF storyline where he returned with Thor's hammer. He was in hell fighting off the demons. His armor was trashed and without power, and he was ready to go down fighting till the hammer gave him a way out.

He's a villian, but they add a few traits normally found in heroes into the mix which is why Doom is one of the more respected villians despite his obvious flaws. He'll go down fighting with the heart of a hero, despite being an absolute bastard.


uhhh, how is that a heroic trait? he was fighting to save his own rear? his only other option would have been to let the demons outright kill him. no "heart of a hero" involved. and i'd say that torturing Sue in front of her kids and skinning Valeria alive makes him an absolute bastard. btw, Zemo (sans armor) fought to the death with Scourge, as well. does that mean that he has the heart of a hero?

[Sean Whitmore]

The New Avengers has formed without US or UN backing, and the government has little control over the group. They haven't approved the membership or the charter. Effectively they're a rogue element, and the CSA is upset about that. Given this, I think it makes perfect sense for CSA to use the T-Bolts to send a message to the team.


I buy the government's reasons for wanting to do it (wrong as they are).

I don't buy Iron Man deciding they had a good point.


SEAN

[XPac]

uhhh, how is that a heroic trait? he was fighting to save his own rear? his only other option would have been to let the demons outright kill him. no "heart of a hero" involved. and i'd say that torturing Sue in front of her kids and skinning Valeria alive makes him an absolute bastard. btw, Zemo (sans armor) fought to the death with Scourge, as well. does that mean that he has the heart of a hero?

Doom having the "heart of a hero" is nothing new... writers go out of their way to demonstrate that element of the character. As flawed a character as he is, he's got courage. Writers will outright put it in the text to illustrate, and if you read the way he was written in that scene where he was making his last stand in hell I think you'll see that again. If you disagree with me, that's cool... but I think his monologue before what he thought might be certain death showed that element of the character pretty clearly.

As for Zemo... I do think him playing the role of a hero has rubbed off on his a bit (and has potentially even become a weakness as we saw against the Swordsman). He's a work in progress.

[XPac]

I buy the government's reasons for wanting to do it (wrong as they are).

I don't buy Iron Man deciding they had a good point.


SEAN

Well, I guess you guys are seeing something that I'm not.

What exactly was the positive end result the government say happening after the TBolts attacked the Avengers?

Did they expect the Avengers to be afraid of the government? Did they expect the Avengers to be more cooperative with them? I just don't see the tangible gain, aside from Gyrich being able to pat himself on the back and say he indirectly kicked the Avengers ass.

[Sean Whitmore]

What exactly was the positive end result the government say happening after the TBolts attacked the Avengers?


Because in Gyrich's stupid little mind, he just put one in the "win" column, and that's enough for him.

Like I said, I don't agree with them, but I can see why they think it was a smart thing to do.

I don't agree with Doom trying to rule the world, but I know why he wants to.


SEAN

[Haunt]

Well, I guess you guys are seeing something that I'm not.

What exactly was the positive end result the government say happening after the TBolts attacked the Avengers?

Did they expect the Avengers to be afraid of the government? Did they expect the Avengers to be more cooperative with them? I just don't see the tangible gain, aside from Gyrich being able to pat himself on the back and say he indirectly kicked the Avengers ass.

i thought it was obvious that they were sent in to distract the Avengers while the electronic spy devices were planted. :)

[XPac]

i thought it was obvious that they were sent in to distract the Avengers while the electronic spy devices were planted. :)

Yeah, but that's the thing... if they had Hank and Carol on their side why did they even need Joystick to plant the devices? They can just walk in the front door, the same way Hank planted the devices in the FF's base.

It's just one more element in that whole thing which didn't make sense to me. The whole thing seemed pointless.

[Haunt]

Yeah, but that's the thing... if they had Hank and Carol on their side why did they even need Joystick to plant the devices? They can just walk in the front door, the same way Hank planted the devices in the FF's base.

It's just one more element in that whole thing which didn't make sense to me. The whole thing seemed pointless.


we don't know how Hank planted the devices. you're assuming that he snuck in. he might have placed them while he and Jan were babysitting Franklin and Val. that's a lot easier than finding a way into Stark's new tower. they might not be able to stop by whenever they like. and they would have to come up with a reason for being there. that's more work than is needed. so Joystick decided to pretend like she was breaking in. works a lot better because everyone would assume that Spiderwoman stopped her from whatever her goal was.

[XPac]

we don't know how Hank planted the devices. you're assuming that he snuck in. he might have placed them while he and Jan were babysitting Franklin and Val. that's a lot easier than finding a way into Stark's new tower. they might not be able to stop by whenever they like. and they would have to come up with a reason for being there. that's more work than is needed. so Joystick decided to pretend like she was breaking in. works a lot better because everyone would assume that Spiderwoman stopped her from whatever her goal was.

No, I'm not assuming Hank snuck in at all. I'm assuming Hank knocked on the front door, said high and planted the bugs when no one was looking. And I'm assuming he could have done the same thing with the New Avengers too. He's an Avenger, or at least he was one... he's got more reason to see them than the FF.

And Carol hangs out at Stark Tower all the time. She's probably had more panel time in there than some of the actual new Avengers. Since she's there all the time anyways, I can't imagine it would have been hard for her to plant the devices.

[Babylon23]

See, the flaw I have always had about the whole "send them a message" mentality is that there really is no point.

All it does is make a situation already filled with mistrust worse. The Avengers won't do anything differently just because they got beat up. If anything now they'll be LESS willing to cooperate with the government. So how is the situation improved by sending them a message? It's not. The whole thing was pointless.

Hey, I'm not saying it's the smartest thing to do. All I'm saying is that the government has a long history of messing with the Avengers in these kind of ways. Remember, we're talking about Gyrich here. He's never been the most level-headed individual.

The fact is that the NA are a rogue element, and the government didn't like it, so they staged an attack to bug Avengers Tower and keep eyes on the team. The US government's bugged plenty of places in the past, from embassies to private homes. Bugging a huge skyscraper in the cente of NY that's filled with superhumans isn't such a big stretch.

Either way, the attack and the bugging could have played out nicely had it been properly embraced by Bendis. The government's actions were reprehensible, and could have made for an interesting confrontation between the CSA and the Avengers. Unfortunately, Bendis chose to dismiss the story with a few backhanded comments.

No, I'm not assuming Hank snuck in at all. I'm assuming Hank knocked on the front door, said high and planted the bugs when no one was looking. And I'm assuming he could have done the same thing with the New Avengers too. He's an Avenger, or at least he was one... he's got more reason to see them than the FF.

And Carol hangs out at Stark Tower all the time. She's probably had more panel time in there than some of the actual new Avengers. Since she's there all the time anyways, I can't imagine it would have been hard for her to plant the devices.

I'm thinking this might be a case of plausible deniability. Imagine what would have happened if Hank or Carol had been caught bugging the Tower. BY using the T-Bolts, the CSA has complete deniability if anything went wrong.

[Porcelain]

-Looks like in order to deal with the supervillians Tony Stark and Reed Richards make a deal with Zemo and the Thunderbolts. Zemo asks if Stark and Reed whether or not they wanted help to deal with Cap and his renegades. Iron Man says "No" we'll deal with Cap, but in the meantime that will leave the supervillians free to roam. Stark asks Zemo to capture the Supervillians and recruit them to the pro-registration side.
Does this mean that Supervillans are going to get a get out of jail free card for registering? Why do they need to be recruited to a 'side', why not just register the villans once caught and send them to be judged?

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Does this mean that Supervillans are going to get a get out of jail free card for registering? Why do they need to be recruited to a 'side', why not just register the villans once caught and send them to be judged?
It depends a lot on what Iron Man means by 'recruit', whether he's got a similar idea to Zemo, or if he's got something else in mind.

As for get-out-of-jail-free cards, it's a time of crisis, and that makes strange bedfellows. Obviously if Galactus shows up saying "Hey guys, I've totally reformed, and I'd like to help you get rid of all the nasty supervillains running around your nice, tasty... tempting... (licks lips) ...planet," there's going to be a bit of scepticism at SHIELD command. But I have no doubt that SHIELD would be quite willing to overlook a certain degree of criminal activity in one's past, if they professed reticence, and agreed to work for SHIELD now.

Ideally, sure, lock the lot of them up - but that means a very crowded jail, and (given how a decent slice of superherodom is resisting registration, and thus not in a position to undertake cooperative ventures with pro-reg heroes, even if they are independently doing their bit to take down villains) not a lot of superheroes to see that the villains get put there. If you get a villain to renounce villainy and work for SHIELD, that's a double victory - one less villain, and one more hero. In theory.

In practice, no doubt SHIELD will have some sort of contingency plan to clean up the mess if one of their newly-reformed 'heroes' turns out not to be so sincere in giving up their wicked ways. And no doubt various villains will be looking for ingenious ways of getting around those plans, whatever they are.

[Porcelain]

It just seems to go against the crux of the act - accountability.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

It just seems to go against the crux of the act - accountability.
Who guards the guards? :p That was always going to be a flaw on the pro-reg side - if superheroes are held accountable to SHIELD, who is SHIELD held accountable to?

[Red Lotus]

This was the first Thunderbolts book I have read in years and I thought it was pretty good. But I do have a question. I thought when the Thunderbolts attacked the Avengers that Zemo was the one who set them up.:confused:

[Porcelain]

Who guards the guards? :p That was always going to be a flaw on the pro-reg side - if superheroes are held accountable to SHIELD, who is SHIELD held accountable to?
Ooooohhh don't get me started on SHIELD allegedly being international now suddenly they're American Law Enforcers.

[XPac]

Hey, I'm not saying it's the smartest thing to do. All I'm saying is that the government has a long history of messing with the Avengers in these kind of ways. Remember, we're talking about Gyrich here. He's never been the most level-headed individual.

The fact is that the NA are a rogue element, and the government didn't like it, so they staged an attack to bug Avengers Tower and keep eyes on the team. The US government's bugged plenty of places in the past, from embassies to private homes. Bugging a huge skyscraper in the cente of NY that's filled with superhumans isn't such a big stretch.

Either way, the attack and the bugging could have played out nicely had it been properly embraced by Bendis. The government's actions were reprehensible, and could have made for an interesting confrontation between the CSA and the Avengers. Unfortunately, Bendis chose to dismiss the story with a few backhanded comments.



I'm thinking this might be a case of plausible deniability. Imagine what would have happened if Hank or Carol had been caught bugging the Tower. BY using the T-Bolts, the CSA has complete deniability if anything went wrong.

It was a hard story to embrace I think only because of Carol's involvement. The same time Fabian had Carol working with the CSA to have the TBolts attack and jump the Avengers, Carol has having baby showers and such with them. I know a persons work like and personal life can be seperate.... but it nonetheless almost came off like 2 different Carols were going around at the same time. Granted the TBolt Carol didn't like what was going on... but it nonetheless would be been distracting to tell the stories he wanted to tell if he were to realistically deal with what was going on with her in TBolts. So it was swept under the rug. Same with Hanks involvement apparently.

Because that's the REAL confrontation that would have been interesting... Gyrich doing this is just Gyrich being Gyrich. Carol and Hank betraying them (coindicentally 2 of the most disgraced Avengers) is where the meat and potatoes of the storytelling would take place. But again, telling THAT story might be a distraction from how they're being used elsewhere.

Which is kind of a shame I suppose, cause I would have loved to have seen the Avengers chew up and spit out Carol and Hank for their actions here.

[XPac]

It depends a lot on what Iron Man means by 'recruit', whether he's got a similar idea to Zemo, or if he's got something else in mind.

As for get-out-of-jail-free cards, it's a time of crisis, and that makes strange bedfellows. Obviously if Galactus shows up saying "Hey guys, I've totally reformed, and I'd like to help you get rid of all the nasty supervillains running around your nice, tasty... tempting... (licks lips) ...planet," there's going to be a bit of scepticism at SHIELD command. But I have no doubt that SHIELD would be quite willing to overlook a certain degree of criminal activity in one's past, if they professed reticence, and agreed to work for SHIELD now.

Ideally, sure, lock the lot of them up - but that means a very crowded jail, and (given how a decent slice of superherodom is resisting registration, and thus not in a position to undertake cooperative ventures with pro-reg heroes, even if they are independently doing their bit to take down villains) not a lot of superheroes to see that the villains get put there. If you get a villain to renounce villainy and work for SHIELD, that's a double victory - one less villain, and one more hero. In theory.

In practice, no doubt SHIELD will have some sort of contingency plan to clean up the mess if one of their newly-reformed 'heroes' turns out not to be so sincere in giving up their wicked ways. And no doubt various villains will be looking for ingenious ways of getting around those plans, whatever they are.


Besides, the jails will be pretty full with all those superheroes Stark and his buddies are going to end up throwing in there.

Basically, Starks ingenious planning will lead to people like Zemo and Captain AMerica switching their prospective roles in life. Zemo out there as a government approved hero while Cap will be rotting in a jail cell somewhere.

Yeah, this system sounds great.

[protege]

The TBolts are pre-registered in the sense that their identities are already known. But there is the aspect of training or proving you have a certain level of skill necessary to go out there and work. That part is perhaps where the TBolts can slip through the cracks... they've already worked for the government anyways.

I don't think Tony actually expects the TBolts to reform all those villians they capture... he probably just wanted them to take up the slack he and his buddies are leaving because they're more interested in hunting down other heroes than dealing with real villians. And Zemo effectively solves that problem in his own way.
I wonder if Zemo knows that Tony is using him- I wonder who's using who?

[XPac]

Who guards the guards? :p That was always going to be a flaw on the pro-reg side - if superheroes are held accountable to SHIELD, who is SHIELD held accountable to?

In THEORY it should be the American government since it's their tax paying dollars at work. I know it's international now, so I guess it's at least in part accountable to the UN.

But as long as they're COVERT, they're probably accountable to no one but themselves. At least until whatever they are doing is publically expossed.

Basically that's what Cap needs to do to take down the corrupt SHIELD (and possibly turn the tide of public sentiment in the Registration). He needs to out Hill and SHIELD in some kind of public manner.

[protege]

The difference between Cap and the TBolts is that they're willing to play ball with the government. They proved that long before Civil War even occured when they jumped the Avengers. Even now with Zemo, they are still heeding the governments request.

Zemo wants the TBolts to look like heroes in the eyes of the public and the government. So he'll dance to their tune as long as it suits his needs. That may and probably will change but right now they're on the same page at least superficially... Cap and the governemtn obviously are not.

I'm sure the government (Gyrich in particular) is basically sitting there waiting for Zemo to turn on them. But right now Zemo and the TBolts are doing what the government wants, and they need all the help they can get.
I'm sure the government will turn on them first. They think they're using Zemo, but I'm sure Zemo is one step ahead of them.

[XPac]

I wonder if Zemo knows that Tony is using him- I wonder who's using who?

They're both using each other. But the thing is Tony doesn't care THAT much about what Zemo is doing, to a large degree.

But the difference is Zemo knows that they're both using each other and is trying to turn the situation to his favor. Tony on the other hand is giving Zemo the benefit of the doubt because of what Zemo did in the Avengers/TBolt mini. And in Tony's case, the whole thing with Zemo is a minor issue that he's not even really concerning himself over.

It's really more about Gyrich and Zemo than Tony and Zemo. He really didn't need to be there at all.

[protege]

It was a hard story to embrace I think only because of Carol's involvement. The same time Fabian had Carol working with the CSA to have the TBolts attack and jump the Avengers, Carol has having baby showers and such with them. I know a persons work like and personal life can be seperate.... but it nonetheless almost came off like 2 different Carols were going around at the same time. Granted the TBolt Carol didn't like what was going on... but it nonetheless would be been distracting to tell the stories he wanted to tell if he were to realistically deal with what was going on with her in TBolts. So it was swept under the rug. Same with Hanks involvement apparently.

Because that's the REAL confrontation that would have been interesting... Gyrich doing this is just Gyrich being Gyrich. Carol and Hank betraying them (coindicentally 2 of the most disgraced Avengers) is where the meat and potatoes of the storytelling would take place. But again, telling THAT story might be a distraction from how they're being used elsewhere.

Which is kind of a shame I suppose, cause I would have loved to have seen the Avengers chew up and spit out Carol and Hank for their actions here.
I'm not sure what you're saying here; what does the fact that Hank and Carol have disgraced the Avengers have to do with their actions now? has Carol's involvement in the Avengers' trouncing ever been addressed? Do the Avengers even know about it?

[XPac]

I'm sure the government will turn on them first. They think they're using Zemo, but I'm sure Zemo is one step ahead of them.

The problem is the government has nothing to turn on Zemo with. Gyrich even said so.

With an army of villians and 2 Moonstones, what's the CSA going to do... have Dallas run over Zemo's foot with her wheelchair? Because of the attack on the Avengers, they even lost Carol.

So I'm sure Gyrich WANTS to turn on Zemo first. But actually being able to is a problem.

[XPac]

I'm not sure what you're saying here; has Carol's involvement in the Avengers' trouncing ever been addressed? Do the Avengers even know about it?

No, it hasn't been addressed. That's my point. Bendis completely ignored he entire issue because it would be a distraction from Carols involvement with the New Avengers. The entire thing was wiped away and never heard or scene again. Carol and Hank being traitors to the Avengers is basically ignored because apparently they wanted a very close relationship between Carol and the Avengers even though she officially never joined.

Had Bendis decided to embrace the storyline Fabian told, Carols involvement would have likely been exposed and it would have changed the nature of her relationship with them.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Besides, the jails will be pretty full with all those superheroes Stark and his buddies are going to end up throwing in there.
To a point. I have no doubt Tony and Reed have something ingenious dreamed up to keep the 'intractables' behind bars, but I don't think that'll be every hero they arrest by any means.

SHIELD's not stupid, after all - they've probably got decent psych profiles on most of the heroes they're rounding up. No doubt those being taken into custody (assuming they don't get Deloreaned out of it by Cap) are being screened, and while some of them get earmarked for cells with plenty of space for scratching big calendars on the walls, a significant number would be regarded as potentially redeemable. They'd be isolated from the others, kept in a nice clean cell, and after a not-too-long wait interviewed by a nice fatherly-type SHIELD agent (or whatever authority figure their profile indicates would have the best chance) who'll give them a cup of coffee and say, "Son" - or daughter, as the case may be - "why don't you tell me why it is you think you need to break the law to be a hero."

Not the ones who've got (suspected) reason to fear for their loved ones, not the ones who've always been zealous about keeping their identities secret, not the ones so committed to their teams that they'd never give them up. But many superheroes are individualistic and kind of... not exactly anti-authority, but liking to be aside from authority, making their own decisions about themselves. The ones who refused to register because they believe superheroes should be free. The young, idealistic, impulsive ones. Those ones, a decent percentage, I imagine could be convinced to give registration a try. Sure it wouldn't be easy, but SHIELD must have some decent psychologists-interviewers on staff. Calmly lay out the reasons why registration is a good idea (there are plenty of valid reasons), explain how one can still patrol about stopping crime as one sees fit, just like before... "it's not like you attack good guys, SHIELD doesn't have any problems with what you do, we just want you to obey the law while you do it. And heck, we'll train you, equip you, make sure you have backup when you need it - you'll have everything you need to be the best hero you can be... it's worth a shot, isn't it? We can have you out of this facility inside the hour, on your way to a SHIELD training centre. So, what do you say?"

I promise you, they'll get recruits. And once someone's agreed to go part of the way, it's that much easier to convince them to keep going. We may or may not see them, but looking at the situation realistically, I have to think that there will be some anti-reg heroes who'll convert to pro-reg.

[XPac]

To a point. I have no doubt Tony and Reed have something ingenious dreamed up to keep the 'intractables' behind bars, but I don't think that'll be every hero they arrest by any means.

SHIELD's not stupid, after all - they've probably got decent psych profiles on most of the heroes they're rounding up. No doubt those being taken into custody (assuming they don't get Deloreaned out of it by Cap) are being screened, and while some of them get earmarked for cells with plenty of space for scratching big calendars on the walls, a significant number would be regarded as potentially redeemable. They'd be isolated from the others, kept in a nice clean cell, and after a not-too-long wait interviewed by a nice fatherly-type SHIELD agent (or whatever authority figure their profile indicates would have the best chance) who'll give them a cup of coffee and say, "Son" - or daughter, as the case may be - "why don't you tell me why it is you think you need to break the law to be a hero."

Not the ones who've got (suspected) reason to fear for their loved ones, not the ones who've always been zealous about keeping their identities secret, not the ones so committed to their teams that they'd never give them up. But many superheroes are individualistic and kind of... not exactly anti-authority, but liking to be aside from authority, making their own decisions about themselves. The ones who refused to register because they believe superheroes should be free. The young, idealistic, impulsive ones. Those ones, a decent percentage, I imagine could be convinced to give registration a try. Sure it wouldn't be easy, but SHIELD must have some decent psychologists-interviewers on staff. Calmly lay out the reasons why registration is a good idea (there are plenty of valid reasons), explain how one can still patrol about stopping crime as one sees fit, just like before... "it's not like you attack good guys, SHIELD doesn't have any problems with what you do, we just want you to obey the law while you do it. And heck, we'll train you, equip you, make sure you have backup when you need it - you'll have everything you need to be the best hero you can be... it's worth a shot, isn't it? We can have you out of this facility inside the hour, on your way to a SHIELD training centre. So, what do you say?"

I promise you, they'll get recruits. And once someone's agreed to go part of the way, it's that much easier to convince them to keep going. We may or may not see them, but looking at the situation realistically, I have to think that there will be some anti-reg heroes who'll convert to pro-reg.

Yeah, I am sure that a few anti guys can be convinced to go along with the Registration (it is the easier path afterall). But I am equally sure that a good number of heroes will switch sides from PRO to ANTI after Tony and SHIELD have spilt enough blood.

So I am assuming it all balances out in the end.

[protege]

The problem is the government has nothing to turn on Zemo with. Gyrich even said so.

With an army of villians and 2 Moonstones, what's the CSA going to do... have Dallas run over Zemo's foot with her wheelchair? Because of the attack on the Avengers, they even lost Carol.

So I'm sure Gyrich WANTS to turn on Zemo first. But actually being able to is a problem.
You don't think the government has some sort of contingency plan to try and keep the Thunderbolts under their thumb, if they start to get out of hand? And i never saw the scene where Carol was ashamed of her actions, and went to the avengers, begging for forgiveness.

[Sean Whitmore]

And i never saw the scene where Carol was ashamed of her actions, and went to the avengers, begging for forgiveness.


You never saw it because she wasn't ashamed of anything. But she suddenly got her own book and started playing super hero, so she couldn't very well be seen in T-Bolts as part of an anti-hero government cabal, and a reason was needed to explain her absence.


SEAN

[XPac]

You don't think the government has some sort of contingency plan to try and keep the Thunderbolts under their thumb, if they start to get out of hand? And i never saw the scene where Carol was ashamed of her actions, and went to the avengers, begging for forgiveness.

Based on Gyrich basically admitting that he doesn't, no I don't.

And there never was a scene where Carol was ashamed of her actions or begged for forgivenes. He basically pretended it didn't happen (same as Bendis). Nor has Hank. I guess if they're the type of people who would betray their friends, there're also the type that won't bother apologizing for it either.

[protege]

You never saw it because she wasn't ashamed of anything. But she suddenly got her own book and started playing super hero, so she couldn't very well be seen in T-Bolts as part of an anti-hero government cabal, and a reason was needed to explain her absence.


SEAN
So basically, the Avengers have no idea they were betrayed from within, and marvel's already ruined the impact of that reveal, by having Tony admit that they probably had it coming.

[XPac]

So basically, the Avengers have no idea they were betrayed from within, and marvel's already ruined the impact of that reveal, by having Tony admit that they probably had it coming.

I suppose they can still have the revela down the line if they want to (maybe in the Ms. Marvel book). But realistically, I do think it's basically a dead issue everywhere but in the TBolts book. Fabian threw it out there, no one took the bate, and everyone is moving on past it like it basically didn't happen.

Maybe under different circumstances it could have been something much cooler. As I said, I would have loved to see the Avengers chew up Carol and Hank for stabbing them in the back. But at this point I doubt anyone will care. It's water under the bridge compared to what's already going on.

[Sean Whitmore]

So basically, the Avengers have no idea they were betrayed from within, and marvel's already ruined the impact of that reveal, by having Tony admit that they probably had it coming.


Well, I doubt Cap and the rest know.

Tony had to find out, since Millar's story has him working with the same people Fabe was trying to set him against.

T-Bolts really just never gets a break continuity-wise, and Fabe rolls with it best he can.


SEAN

[Drakenred]

No doubt those being taken into custody (assuming they don't get Deloreaned out of it by Cap) are being screened, and while some of them get earmarked for cells with plenty of space for scratching big calendars on the walls, a significant number would be regarded as potentially redeemable. They'd be isolated from the others, kept in a nice clean cell, and after a not-too-long wait interviewed by a nice fatherly-type SHIELD agent (or whatever authority figure their profile indicates would have the best chance) who'll give them a cup of coffee and say, "Son" - or daughter, as the case may be - "why don't you tell me why it is you think you need to break the law to be a hero.".

Um

you are aware that this is the Marvel Universe?

They will be lucky if they dont end up in the current generation of the Weapon X program and force conditioned to be mindless killers and feild tested by droping them in a small town someplace to test how fast they can kill everyone.

[Conn Seanery]

Um

you are aware that this is the Marvel Universe?

They will be lucky if they dont end up in the current generation of the Weapon X program and force conditioned to be mindless killers and feild tested by droping them in a small town someplace to test how fast they can kill everyone.
This being public knowledge to the average person, hero, villain (redeemable or otherwise) considering registration? They don't read comics like we do.

[Drakenred]

This being public knowledge to the average person, hero, villain (redeemable or otherwise) considering registration? They don't read comics like we do.

Actualy the Sentinals Fiasco and the resultant Genocide in Genosha is public knowledge, as is some of the Fiascoes in the Weapons Plus program, and the events that culminated in the creation of the Tri-sentinal(which was delt with off pannel in a congressional investigation)

[Conn Seanery]

Actualy the Sentinals Fiasco and the resultant Genocide in Genosha is public knowledge, as is some of the Fiascoes in the Weapons Plus program, and the events that culminated in the creation of the Tri-sentinal(which was delt with off pannel in a congressional investigation)
Did any of those start up out in the open like the SRA is? They didn't ask people to line up and be killed in Genosha, for example.

[Babylon23]

I suppose they can still have the revela down the line if they want to (maybe in the Ms. Marvel book). But realistically, I do think it's basically a dead issue everywhere but in the TBolts book. Fabian threw it out there, no one took the bate, and everyone is moving on past it like it basically didn't happen.

Maybe under different circumstances it could have been something much cooler. As I said, I would have loved to see the Avengers chew up Carol and Hank for stabbing them in the back. But at this point I doubt anyone will care. It's water under the bridge compared to what's already going on.

This really does come across as one of those editorial things. No one was using Carol, so Fabian brought her into T-Bolts. He begins laying the seeds for the CSA storyline, but then editorial decides to run with Carol in NA and her solo book. Civil War comes along, and the whole matter is forgotten. Fabian creates a throwaway line in the current issue to explain things away, and run with the CW storyline.

This sort of thing happens a lot in comics. Perhaps a better handling of the matter by editorial could have resulted in a more satisfactory conclusion to the matter.

T-Bolts really just never gets a break continuity-wise, and Fabe rolls with it best he can.

SEAN

Unfortunately, T-Bolts is a lesser selling book, and with Marvel placing all of their emphasis on the better selling Avengers and Civil War, this sort of thing is bound to happen. Fabian seems to just run with it, though, and it doesn't disrupt my reading of T-Bolts too much (I don't read NA).

[jade_nova]

What is Baron Zemo planning? Any idea if he is going to unleash his army of villians on the heroes in the middle of Civil War?

[XPac]

What is Baron Zemo planning? Any idea if he is going to unleash his army of villians on the heroes in the middle of Civil War?

I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the TBolt/Zemo side of things won't be a major factor in the main Civil War story since there hasn't been a whole lot of mention of involvement in it. That can easily change however since we're only on the second book.

But I'm guessing that whatever Zemo does will mostly only effect the TBolt side of things. But I hope I'm wrong, in that it would be nice to see TBolts folded into the more mainstream Marvel Universe rather than being in their own little lonely corner.

Zemo unleasing a huge army of villians admittedly might be just the thing to bring the warring hero factions back together though. But making another "Masters of Evil" seems a bit of a throwback to how Zemo operates these days. Not sure exactly what he has planned, but I do home it's a bit more sophistiated than simply charging at the heroes with his army of villians one day out of the blue.

[Will.S]

Either way, the attack and the bugging could have played out nicely had it been properly embraced by Bendis. The government's actions were reprehensible, and could have made for an interesting confrontation between the CSA and the Avengers. Unfortunately, Bendis chose to dismiss the story with a few backhanded comments.
When did have backhanded comments? As far as I know he just didn't refer to it yet in NA and just said something along the lines of "Fabian does what Fabian does".

[XPac]

When did have backhanded comments? As far as I know he just didn't refer to it yet in NA and just said something along the lines of "Fabian does what Fabian does".

I think Bendis did once joking question whether or not TBolts was still being published or something like that. I don't think it was an intential diss or anything thing... I'm guessing he's just playing off the notion that according to the internet there's suppossed to be some issues between them or something.

[Will.S]

I think Bendis did once joking question whether or not TBolts was still being published or something like that. I don't think it was an intential diss or anything thing... I'm guessing he's just playing off the notion that according to the internet there's suppossed to be some issues between them or something.
Yeah that was in the Q & A podcasts but it was more like a playful jab than a backhanded comment.

[Nyssane]

Yeah that was in the Q & A podcasts but it was more like a playful jab than a backhanded comment.

It could be interpreted in either ways. I personally was slightly offended by it and even if it was a "playful jab," it was tasteless.

[Will.S]

It could be interpreted in either ways. I personally was slightly offended by it and even if it was a "playful jab," it was tasteless.
I doubt they both hold any ill will towards each other though and Bendis said that he wishes Fabian the best.

[Sentry]

This was my first thunderbolts book ever so please forgive the silly questions but....

1. is that joystick gal gay then? or bi?

2. They are ex-bad guys trying to do good?

Good fun issue, I may keep it up after the civil war cross over.

[Sean Whitmore]

This was my first thunderbolts book ever so please forgive the silly questions but....

1. is that joystick gal gay then? or bi?

2. They are ex-bad guys trying to do good?


1. There hasn't really been any evidence to suggest one orientation or the other. She's just an idiot and thought she was being either funny or shocking.

2. For the most part. Although the fun of T-Bolts is figuring out which ones genuinely want to do good and which ones have their own agendas.


Good fun issue, I may keep it up after the civil war cross over.


Good choice! :)


SEAN

[FrogMan]

Good fun issue, I may keep it up after the civil war cross over.

DO IT!! You won't be disappointed. Try to track down all the other back issues on ebay or something. I got the complete first run (minus the last few issues when it was still called Thunderbolts but really had nothing to do with them) for only 40 bucks.

(I had up to issue 27 from when they first came out, but well....water damage)

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

What is Baron Zemo planning? Any idea if he is going to unleash his army of villians on the heroes in the middle of Civil War?
This is just speculation, but my first guess was that he's hoping to supplant Iron Man's superheroes as the government-approved anti-supervillain force. It'd be a decent coup if he managed it - if he can recruit/convert enough superhumans that the Thunderbolts become large enough to effectively (and obviously) police the US for super-crime, and not look too devious while doing so, there's the possibility that some damfool politicial will decide that Zemo's army is the way to go, and appoint them official licensed super-cops, in lieu of Iron Man and SHIELD's attempts to do same. So far as taking over a country is concerned, being put in charge of its security is a big asset :cool:

Um

you are aware that this is the Marvel Universe?
Yeah yeah, but I'm an optimist at heart. Besides, Marvel's been good to me: I started out with She-Hulk, loved it, got GLA, loved it, Ms Marvel, loved it, Daughters of the Dragon, loved it, and all of Civil War so far. Maybe I've been well-informed about what's quality (or just lucky, given that I got Ms Marvel #1 just because of her awesome thighs on the cover), but that's not a bad scorecard.

Anyway, seeing as I mentioned it earlier in this thread, I did end up going back and getting Thunderbolts #102, which delivered on the promised Joystick-focus. It's official, I love her. She's so highly-functioning screwed up - it's like she somehow managed to assimilate all of the Art of War but skipped the 'know yourself' bit. So long as she keeps getting some spotlight now and then, and isn't totally relegated to a background player at other times, I can see myself sticking with Thunderbolts for a while.

Have there been any recent issues (i.e. that I might still be able to find on shelves) that've focussed on Songbird? If I can get a fix on her character, and like her, I can pretty much lock this title in as a keeper.

[StoneGold]

1. There hasn't really been any evidence to suggest one orientation or the other. She's just an idiot and thought she was being either funny or shocking.



SEAN
Didn't we just go through the issue that shows she's a genius? But she's been hitting on all the guys, and she was the one that dragged them all to the strip club -- I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if she's bi.

[Sean Whitmore]

Didn't we just go through the issue that shows she's a genius?


Well, we went through one that shows she's working on both sides of the fence, but I surely missed any genius overtones.


SEAN

[Dermie]

1. There hasn't really been any evidence to suggest one orientation or the other. She's just an idiot and thought she was being either funny or shocking.

Fabian has implied at other forums that Joystick is bisexual. The on-panel evidence points in that direction as well, since this is her 2nd time commenting on the attractiveness of a woman, but she has also attempted to seduce (or possibly has seduced off-panel) a couple of her male teammates.

Well, we went through one that shows she's working on both sides of the fence, but I surely missed any genius overtones.

'Genius' may be an overstatement, but we were shown that she is a lot smarter than she gets credit for--partly because she lets people underestimate her so that she has the advantage.

We also saw in issue #6 that she has more technical expertise than anyone realized, when she was able to reconfigure Hydra's systems on her own--Abe expected he was going to have to talk her through it, and he was stunned when he learned she had already completed the job without him.

[StoneGold]

'Genius' may be an overstatement, but we were shown that she is a lot smarter than she gets credit for--partly because she lets people underestimate her so that she has the advantage.

We also saw in issue #6 that she has more technical expertise than anyone realized, when she was able to reconfigure Hydra's systems on her own--Abe expected he was going to have to talk her through it, and he was stunned when he learned she had already completed the job without him.
OK, that makes her average at best for a comic book character, but genius level for a normal human. But yeah, smarter than she lets on, definitely.

[Drakenred]

This was my first thunderbolts book ever so please forgive the silly questions but....

1. is that joystick gal gay then? or bi?

2. They are ex-bad guys trying to do good?

Good fun issue, I may keep it up after the civil war cross over.

1) Shes a running Dirty joke who likes to act like she only has one thing on her mind, namely cracking more implied Dirty jokes. Serisouly, her handle is "Joy Stick" and she weilds Powered rods?

However Fabian thinks shes Bi, so thats mostly it for now.

2) Its kind of hard to say, Zemo actualy thinks he doing this for the right reasons. but then theirs reason to suspect that his idea of the right thing is just a bit off.

[Bobster777]

1) Shes a running Dirty joke who likes to act like she only has one thing on her mind, namely cracking more implied Dirty jokes. Serisouly, her handle is "Joy Stick" and she weilds Powered rods?

However Fabian thinks shes Bi, so thats mostly it for now.

2) Its kind of hard to say, Zemo actualy thinks he doing this for the right reasons. but then theirs reason to suspect that his idea of the right thing is just a bit off.

I think certain members of the team are truly good guys like Songbird. However, I'm suspecting that Zemo is as bad as ever. He'll probably be the big baddie coming out of this storyline.

[mrhygiene]

Right when I was about to cancel getting this book...they go and do THIS.

(new masters of evil??!?! Let's hope so)

[Slade.]

found it very boring and poorly written

almost like that comic is still from the 90's

[XPac]

found it very boring and poorly written

almost like that comic is still from the 90's

Though I don't agree with the boring or poorly written part (to each their own), I do agree that TBolts does have more of an old school 90's feel to it. It never took the more hyperreastic approach of say an Bendis or a Millar.

That's why a lot of people like it truthfully... though I can understand how it might not be some people's cup of tea of they more into the direction Marvel and lot of new writers have taken the industry recently.

[FabianNicieza]

found it very boring and poorly written

almost like that comic is still from the 90's



Which is a pretty amusing criticism coming from a guy using a character name and picture slug... from the 80's...

If you want to really prove how cool and hip you are, you probably should change your screenname to Ultimate Slade...

:-)

-- Fabian

[Sean Whitmore]

If you want to really prove how cool and hip you are, you probably should change your screenname to Ultimate Slade...
:-)


I thought Ultimate Slade was Deadpool?

(Kidding! Kidding! Totally kidding. ;) )


SEAN

[Scavenger]

Well, I doubt Cap and the rest know.


Cap knows. Cable told him when he "infiltrated" Providence. Of course, that only counts in NiciezaVerse titles.

Are you not reading Cable & Deadpool?

1. is that joystick gal gay then? or bi?

She's a living embodiement of action. She takes everything she gets :p

[Sean Whitmore]

Cable told him when he "infiltrated" Providence. Of course, that only counts in NiciezaVerse titles.


Ah yes, right you are. On both counts. :)


SEAN