The fate of Spider-Man

[CMBMOOL]

A legend, an icon, a protector for the people...

These are just some of the words to describe Spider-man, who has up until now has always be protective with his Secret ID and his family.


Now with the SHR over the horizion it time to take a side....


Now I ask you, the fans, up until now we know where Spidey is at during
Civil War, but I ask you how can that help him and if that fails what convinces him to switch sides ?

What I am basically asking is that how can Civil War help Spider-man?

Are the decisions he make going to help/hurt him out more?

What makes him switch sides, if he does that during the event ?

All thoughts are welcome. :D

[Nick Kal]

I haven't cared to read Spider-Man comics in a long time and I'm certain that Civil War will damage him further... they'll probably have him reveal his identity to the world in the mini and have MJ & Aunt May end up dead some time soon after that.

[xmixmasterx]

i think somehow he'll find out what Iron Man is up to and will be opposed to it. But then again i don't think he's going to reveal next issue, or at least shouldn't so the two options don't really go together. I think if he doesn't reveal next issue then he's already opposed to registration. Good questions that i can't really answer.

[DoctorDoom]

Doom will conquer all.

On a serious note, I agree with Nick Kal.

[algertman]

I haven't cared to read Spider-Man comics in a long time and I'm certain that Civil War will damage him further... they'll probably have him reveal his identity to the world in the mini and have MJ & Aunt May end up dead some time soon after that.


That's one thing I don't like. Spider-Man knows how much problems a revealed identity can cause. Just look at all the stuff Venom and Green Goblin caused. He may be sitting high in the sky in his Avengers pad, but he knows better than anyone all of that can be gone is flash. Then his protection is gone.

[PaxHouse]

I haven't cared to read Spider-Man comics in a long time and I'm certain that Civil War will damage him further... they'll probably have him reveal his identity to the world in the mini and have MJ & Aunt May end up dead some time soon after that.

Congradulations on your new career of being a prophet..(JIC you didn't happenned to read CIVIL WAR #2...!!) ..:eek:

[Philip33X]

You realize that policemen and firefighters and soldiers don't hide their identities and still go about their jobs of protecting people.

Only in backwards Middle Eastern countries and other 3rd countries do people go around murdering families of police, judges, politicians, etc. Very barbaric.

But anyway, here in America, superheroes shouldn't have to wear masks.

[Drakenred]

You realize that policemen and firefighters and soldiers don't hide their identities and still go about their jobs of protecting people.

Only in backwards Middle Eastern countries and other 3rd countries do people go around murdering families of police, judges, politicians, etc. Very barbaric.

But anyway, here in America, superheroes shouldn't have to wear masks.


Nice to know that I live in a backwards Middle Eastern/third world country.

Its Called Texas.

I live down the street from a detective who moved out recently.

It was the third time his house was shot at, and we Live in a mid range ($170-280,000) neiborhood.

ALL Federal Judges(and more state and county judges) nowdays get not only their mail but every address in the neiborhood where they live(in case of misdirected mail) gets their mail checked for chemical traces and explosives. on top of that Both UPS and FED EX now notify Judges and politicians in advance of a delivery to their homes.

I live in Texas BTW. But the same is also true in virtualy all of the US.

[Magneto Rocks]

Only in backwards Middle Eastern countries and other 3rd countries do people go around murdering families of police, judges, politicians, etc. Very barbaric.

It's nice to know that racism isn't really a part of our society- "BACKWARDS MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES" etc. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'd say Spidey is pretty much stuck Pro-Reg for a while.... he will PROBABLY change but the obviousness of him changing is so... obvious that I wonder if they might actually have him NOT change as a shocker....

[CMBMOOL]

Anyhow back to the topic at hand:

Here's what I think, something within Civil War #3 will make Spider-man and the Invisible Woman switch sides during the following issue.

What it might be, I don't know. :(


What do you, the fans, think of this ? :confused:

[XPac]

You realize that policemen and firefighters and soldiers don't hide their identities and still go about their jobs of protecting people.

Only in backwards Middle Eastern countries and other 3rd countries do people go around murdering families of police, judges, politicians, etc. Very barbaric.

But anyway, here in America, superheroes shouldn't have to wear masks.

In a perfect world, yes Superheroes shouldn't have to wear masks. But truthfully in a perfect world we shoudln't need superheroes at all.

But that said, the system of people doing things outside of the law sometimes gets better results, and it's those people that wear masks.

Batman can't do many of the things he does legally... but he needs a mask to protect him from being legally accountable for some of the things he does. It's perfectly understandable for people to say that's not right or fair... but it often does get the better end result.

[BigBoss]

spidey does indeed betray the pro side. is there anybody else on the proside that is as good as him?

[Joe Acro]

Let me start by saying that I find his betrayal highly unlikely at this point. That said, I'm not sure what you mean by someone as good as him. Iron Man's a pretty public figure and probably more powerful. The Pro-side has powerhouses and thinkers and well-liked members of the hero community. Mr. Fantastic, Yellowjacket, Wasp, and She-Hulk are just those kind of heroes.

[algertman]

Don't see why Spidey wouldn't betray the pro side. Pro-Side = badguys. I don't see Spidey sticking with them for the long haul

[Gregg Helmberger]

If Spider-Man doesn't flip, then there will have been a whole hell of a lot of foreshadowing leading to absolutely nothing whatsoever. I can't imagine he won't change sides pretty soon. Besides, TPTB have stated that they want to break Peter and MJ up without killing her or divorcing them, and that they want to tell stories more like the early days of Spidey where he was being chased and hounded by the authorities. This is the perfect way to achieve those goals.

[Joe Acro]

I'm just saying, why go to the trouble of revealing your identity to the world and then not stick with the side you did it for? Peter's not an idiot.

[Weirdopky]

Yeah, you might be right about that, but he's having serious doubts, and i think what happened in Frontline 5 with Ben Urich being attacked by Green Goblin, and all of these Spidey villains now knowing who he is, it's basically inevitable that he'll go to Cap's side. Also, when he got into that scuffle with Cap in the alley, he was so pissed that he had to fight such a battle against someone like Cap. People think Cap and Iron Man are the key figures in this, but Spidey's the one totally ambivalent right now.

[Magneto Rocks]

Don't see why Spidey wouldn't betray the pro side. Pro-Side = badguys. I don't see Spidey sticking with them for the long haul

Except, y'know, the only people demonising the pro-reg side are the fans. As far as I'm aware, the comics- with exceptions of Frontline and N Avengers, have been portraying them quite fairly.

[Gregg Helmberger]

Yeah, you might be right about that, but he's having serious doubts, and i think what happened in Frontline 5 with Ben Urich being attacked by Green Goblin, and all of these Spidey villains now knowing who he is, it's basically inevitable that he'll go to Cap's side. Also, when he got into that scuffle with Cap in the alley, he was so pissed that he had to fight such a battle against someone like Cap. People think Cap and Iron Man are the key figures in this, but Spidey's the one totally ambivalent right now.

I think everything is being set up for a big Spider-Man - Iron Man fight. I think something will happen to MJ or Aunt May and Spider-Man will blame Tony (he said he would if anything happened to either of them and he was still alive), and that will be that.

[Arti]

Except, y'know, the only people demonising the pro-reg side are the fans. As far as I'm aware, the comics- with exceptions of Frontline and N Avengers, have been portraying them quite fairly.
For every time the pro-side is portrayed as being the good guys, I can give you 2 times they aren't.

[Joe Acro]

I think everything is being set up for a big Spider-Man - Iron Man fight. I think something will happen to MJ or Aunt May and Spider-Man will blame Tony (he said he would if anything happened to either of them and he was still alive), and that will be that.
If anything happened to them, Peter would be ultimately responsible. I haven't been reading ASM, but I'll assume Tony nudged him towards unmasking himself. (Do it to take an Israeli ambassador? No. Do it to support something you aren't even sure you fully support? Sure.) However, the final decision was entirely up to him. Just because, maybe, it was Tony's idea, doesn't make it his fault. And if Peter did beat up Iron Man (which isn't likely) he'd realize this later.

[Mothmonsterman]

Pro-Side = badguys.

Could you explain this to me? If you would, please refrain from using the word "superheroes," so that I may understand your viewpoint a bit better. If it helps, you may use other titles describing various forms of vigilantism. You could defend Ku Klux Klan lynch mobs, for instance.

[XPac]

Spiderman already has his doubts that he's doing the right thing (hell, Tony has those same doubts).

But he's in so deep, it would probably take something pretty big to push him over and change sides. Tony's side is now in a position of protecting his family... a situation that's even more necessariy because he opted to reveal his identity (which I'll go on record saying was stupid).

That said, they're already set up the student vs apprentice angle. He's gotta turn on Tony sooner or later.

[Red Lotus]

Let me start by saying that I find his betrayal highly unlikely at this point. That said, I'm not sure what you mean by someone as good as him. Iron Man's a pretty public figure and probably more powerful. The Pro-side has powerhouses and thinkers and well-liked members of the hero community. Mr. Fantastic, Yellowjacket, Wasp, and She-Hulk are just those kind of heroes.


I have to agree with you. I dont see Spider-man changing sides. I think in a way if he changes side now that would really hurt what they could do with the unmasking. By staying pro they can still have Peter dealing with the unmasking while still being able to go out in the public and interacting with people.

As a anti hero what are they going to do make him go under ground or hide out. For the unmasking to work they need him out in the public.

[BigBoss]

yea I mean I am asking that what would happen if he did.

[BigBoss]

Yeah, you might be right about that, but he's having serious doubts, and i think what happened in Frontline 5 with Ben Urich being attacked by Green Goblin, and all of these Spidey villains now knowing who he is, it's basically inevitable that he'll go to Cap's side. Also, when he got into that scuffle with Cap in the alley, he was so pissed that he had to fight such a battle against someone like Cap. People think Cap and Iron Man are the key figures in this, but Spidey's the one totally ambivalent right now.why would that make him go to caps side?

[Magneto Rocks]

Would it affect Iron Man's side unduly? Well, it might affect him personally- ah Hell, it WOULD affect him. But in the sheer forces match-up no, because to be honest when it comes to all-out war, there are at least a half dozen pro characters, EXCLUDING Sentry and Thor, who could take Spidey without too much trouble.

[BigBoss]

I think it would defintly affect the pro side. I mean has almost the most knowledge on that side about fighting.

[BigBoss]

I think it would defintly affect the pro side. I mean has almost the most knowledge on that side about fighting.

[Rich L]

Not only that but it depends on how he goes over to the anti-reg side. If he holds his own press conference putting forward the views he did in the Road to Civil War issues, I think that it will be damaging to the pro-side on a public perception level.

Similarly, I think at some point Cap will hold a conference - probably following his arrest (forshadowed this week in Tbolts) - and public opinion will begin to sway in the opposite direction than it is now.

[Silverinferno]

Well i think he will betray iron-man because it is after all on the cover of the next amazing spiderman

[SnakeEater]

that cover doesnt necesarrily mean he is betraying IM. It could be what marvel wants us to think but in fact they are training. Could be that tony added something to Peter's suit and wants to check it out. I know that Moon Knight 7 shows Peter on the cover with him in his old costume but i think that also means that his costume dies during issue 5 of CW.

[SnakeEater]

Yeah, you might be right about that, but he's having serious doubts, and i think what happened in Frontline 5 with Ben Urich being attacked by Green Goblin, and all of these Spidey villains now knowing who he is, it's basically inevitable that he'll go to Cap's side. Also, when he got into that scuffle with Cap in the alley, he was so pissed that he had to fight such a battle against someone like Cap. People think Cap and Iron Man are the key figures in this, but Spidey's the one totally ambivalent right now.


I dont understand why some villians kicking spidey's butt now would cause him to change sides. People have beat up on peter before and it hasnt changed a thing. This just seems illogical. I think too many ppl are reading into the whole Peter switching sides thing. I just think that finally the villians take advantage of the situation in issue 5 and spidey is just the focal point because he has the most to lose, doesnt mean "ouch norman hurt me again im going to go to captain america because this whole thing doesnt make sense anyway."

[-S-Man-]

If SHRA does win (which it 99% will) then it will give Spidey a boost in self-confidence. He won't have a problem (ethics wise) fighting gobby or mysterio over the skyscraper. But if SHRA wins, it will also spell disaster for Spidey in more ways than one:

1. We saw him drooling after She-Hulk in SH #8 or 9. With or without the SHRA, JJJ will be waging a full-scale offensive on Spidey for the photo over so many years.
2. Spidey's mega long rogues gallery will be fighting each other to get to him first.
3. Spidey won't always be there to look after MJ or Aunt May and when they leave the house that will have to have superhuman body-guards just incase a supper villain or two might want to have a pop at them.

4. Civil War: Frontline #5 and already Wonderman is be manipulated by S.H.I.E.L.D into looking into a case that doesn't involve him wit the threat of legal action. Would S.H.I.E.L.D divulge information to JJJ's lawyers i.e. Jeniffer & co. giving Spidey a $8 billion bill.

5. Will Tony always support Spidey whatever happens...even if Spidey chooses to switch sides.

Well, theres only two things I can see that would make Spidey switch sides and that would be if something happened to MJ or Aunt May before CW ended or if S.H.I.E.L.D's corruption was found out by Cap and given to the media.

[BigBoss]

Well i think he will betray iron-man because it is after all on the cover of the next amazing spidermanif you go too marvels summary of that issue, it says that spidey makes a choice that will bring him new friends jeez how obvious.

[BigBoss]

If SHRA does win (which it 99% will) then it will give Spidey a boost in self-confidence. He won't have a problem (ethics wise) fighting gobby or mysterio over the skyscraper. But if SHRA wins, it will also spell disaster for Spidey in more ways than one:

1. We saw him drooling after She-Hulk in SH #8 or 9. With or without the SHRA, JJJ will be waging a full-scale offensive on Spidey for the photo over so many years.
2. Spidey's mega long rogues gallery will be fighting each other to get to him first.
3. Spidey won't always be there to look after MJ or Aunt May and when they leave the house that will have to have superhuman body-guards just incase a supper villain or two might want to have a pop at them.

4. Civil War: Frontline #5 and already Wonderman is be manipulated by S.H.I.E.L.D into looking into a case that doesn't involve him wit the threat of legal action. Would S.H.I.E.L.D divulge information to JJJ's lawyers i.e. Jeniffer & co. giving Spidey a $8 billion bill.

5. Will Tony always support Spidey whatever happens...even if Spidey chooses to switch sides.

Well, theres only two things I can see that would make Spidey switch sides and that would be if something happened to MJ or Aunt May before CW ended or if S.H.I.E.L.D's corruption was found out by Cap and given to the media. sheild is corrupeted how? this is defintly news too me.

[Weirdopky]

SnakeEater, what I meant is that all these spidey villians will come after his family, and it's gonna make him snap. Even during the Spidey vs Cap fight recently, you could see his ambivalence, and how he wasn't nearly as into being pro reg as IM. Whatever, I don't want to get into any arguments on a forum. It's wasted time.

[scratchie]

This guy has an interesting theory:

http://progressiveruin.com/archives/2006_08_13_archive.html#115579864144455693

" ... However, the cynical and bitter part of my mind keeps thinking that the Spider-Man movie people said "You did what to Spider-Man? Fix it. NOW!" -- and the Marvel folks are now scrambling to rewrite the ending to meet that demand. No proof or anything, ... "

Wouldn't surprise me in the least, given the amount of money Marvel makes on movie licensing vs. selling comic books.

[Red Lotus]

I don't think Spider-man is going to change sides. Since I think the SRA is here to stay for a while I think the only for the unmasking to really work is for Peter to go out in the public and interact with people who knows he's Spider-man.

If he turns on the pro side wouldn't that make him a wanted man and force him to go into hiding why not just have him change his name to Ben.

[-S-Man-]

sheild is corrupeted how? this is defintly news too me.

1. First of all I don't like Maria Hill. She seems too shifty...she has some issues she needs to sort out.

2. Quote from marvel.com itself:
Ultimately, despite Fury's best efforts, the second incarnation of S.H.I.E.L.D. has proven no more immune to corruption than the first, and Fury has grown dubious of some of the agency's more inhumane operations, such as the so-called Deathlok project.

3.That dude in Civil War:X-Men inthe O*N*E department is mega corrupt.
The one that wears cloths that looks like a prist...and he was the one that order Cyclops to attack Bishop in CW: X-Men 2

[BigBoss]

I don't think Spider-man is going to change sides. Since I think the SRA is here to stay for a while I think the only for the unmasking to really work is for Peter to go out in the public and interact with people who knows he's Spider-man.

If he turns on the pro side wouldn't that make him a wanted man and force him to go into hiding why not just have him change his name to Ben. the new sensationsal spidey issue 29 kinda shows that he aint really agnist it. but that is just 1 of the 3 arc.

[BigBoss]

If SHRA does win (which it 99% will) then it will give Spidey a boost in self-confidence. He won't have a problem (ethics wise) fighting gobby or mysterio over the skyscraper. But if SHRA wins, it will also spell disaster for Spidey in more ways than one:

1. We saw him drooling after She-Hulk in SH #8 or 9. With or without the SHRA, JJJ will be waging a full-scale offensive on Spidey for the photo over so many years.
2. Spidey's mega long rogues gallery will be fighting each other to get to him first.
3. Spidey won't always be there to look after MJ or Aunt May and when they leave the house that will have to have superhuman body-guards just incase a supper villain or two might want to have a pop at them.

4. Civil War: Frontline #5 and already Wonderman is be manipulated by S.H.I.E.L.D into looking into a case that doesn't involve him wit the threat of legal action. Would S.H.I.E.L.D divulge information to JJJ's lawyers i.e. Jeniffer & co. giving Spidey a $8 billion bill.

5. Will Tony always support Spidey whatever happens...even if Spidey chooses to switch sides.

Well, theres only two things I can see that would make Spidey switch sides and that would be if something happened to MJ or Aunt May before CW ended or if S.H.I.E.L.D's corruption was found out by Cap and given to the media.
if sheild is corrupted then that would be catosthropec.

[The Charlatan]

if sheild is corrupted then that would be catosthropec.

...and that is one of the major reasons why Cap and so many fans are against the Act. I'm personally not 'Anti-Registration' so much as 'Anti Forced Conscription Into A Power-Hungry Balatantly Amoral If Not Outright Immoral Organization'.

[BigBoss]

...and that is one of the major reasons why Cap and so many fans are against the Act. I'm personally not 'Anti-Registration' so much as 'Anti Forced Conscription Into A Power-Hungry Balatantly Amoral If Not Outright Immoral Organization'.
I can understand that but what does sheild have too do with the registration act. that was the goverments doing not sheilds unless somebody help me out here!

[The Charlatan]

I can understand that but what does sheild have too do with the registration act. that was the goverments doing not sheilds unless somebody help me out here!

All registared supers become quasi-SHEILD Agents, under the command and jurisdiction of SHEILD. While at the being it was stated that SHIELD would do little to interferre with a superhero just going out 'on patrol', it's becoming apparent that there are factions of SHIELD that like the idea of every superhero on Earth as an army under its leash entirely too much.

[-S-Man-]

A friend of mine (at my local comic store) said he wants the Pro side to win and for it to go on for a year (or two) at the least, while Cap and others are underground trying to find the proof for S.H.I.E.L.D's corrupt roots. Does anyone think that how it will pan out?

P.S. Even though Cap is underground at the moment, we haven't seen he active looking for proof.

[CMBMOOL]

A friend of mine (at my local comic store) said he wants the Pro side to win and for it to go on for a year (or two) at the least, while Cap and others are underground trying to find the proof for S.H.I.E.L.D's corrupt roots. Does anyone think that how it will pan out?

P.S. Even though Cap is underground at the moment, we haven't seen he active looking for proof.

That might have to be the plot that is stated to be shown in New Avengers next year.


Anyhow I got a question for you, it seems like all of Spider-man lower ranked villains are getting the spotlight for once in the pages of Sensational and Friendly Neighborhood and are trying to kill Peter's friends, family, students and factuly.

That makes me wonder what's going to occur when Peter faces Norman and the rest of his higher ranked villains.

Anyhow here's a theory, within Amazing tie-ins to Civil War we see Norman and bunch of Spidey's villains kidnapping all those who are close to Peter and are setting to kill them in different locations if Peter doesn't show up to fight to save them. Captain America and the anti-forces figures that this is a trap and all of the hostages are in one location so they rush off to save them, while Peter with Tony and the pro-heroes fight off massive hordes of Spidey villains including some of their own. The anti-forces save all of the hostages but one: Aunt May, who Norman trys to kill ala Gwen Stacy style, but she is saved by the anti-forces. Once Peter defeats Norman and hears that she's saved by Captain America and the anti-squad he decides to switch sides and it is for his family's own safety.

Well what to do you think of this theory ? :D

[Xanrn]

Well the Words "It sucks" spring to mind.

Pro-Reg saves all but one hostage, Anti-Reg saves 1 and this makes Peter swap sides?

Also Massive Hordes? He hasn't got that many Villians and his Villians get beat down quick against more powerful heroes. Spideys villians are a step up from steet level. No way near Iron Man, Thor, Wonderman, Ms Marvel.

Also you don't know SHIELD is corrupt? I take it you haven't read New Avengers, since its the central plotline.

SHIELD is the bloated rotting corpse of a Whale, bobbing along.

[CMBMOOL]

Well the Words "It sucks" spring to mind.

Pro-Reg saves all but one hostage, Anti-Reg saves 1 and this makes Peter swap sides?

Also Massive Hordes? He hasn't got that many Villians and his Villians get beat down quick against more powerful heroes. Spideys villians are a step up from steet level. No way near Iron Man, Thor, Wonderman, Ms Marvel.

Also you don't know SHIELD is corrupt? I take it you haven't read New Avengers, since its the central plotline.

SHIELD is the bloated rotting corpse of a Whale, bobbing along.

Okay maybe you're right, but notice how all of Spider-man unmasking arcs are three each withing the seperate titles, so far ?

Maybe it building up to a BIG showdown with major Marvel VIllains against all heroes both Pro and anti within Civil War #5, and #6 is the aftermath of that battle, but #7 is the final battle between the heroes.

Just a suggestion. :)

[BigBoss]

Okay maybe you're right, but notice how all of Spider-man unmasking arcs are three each withing the seperate titles, so far ?

Maybe it building up to a BIG showdown with major Marvel VIllains against all heroes both Pro and anti within Civil War #5, and #6 is the aftermath of that battle, but #7 is the final battle between the heroes.

Just a suggestion. :)
that sure as hell would be a dream come true.

[Enterprise E]

What would be interesting is if Iron Man asked Spider-Man to do something that was morally dubious, even more so than what he's doing now. I'm talking about him having to help SHIELD with something corrupt. This causes Spider-Man to doubt Iron Man, SHIELD, and the real intentions behind the SHRA. However, he as already cast his lot in with Iron Man and his family is being protected by them. Then Captain America comes to Spider-Man with a proposition. He can outwardly work for the Mighty Avengers and the Pro-Registration side, but in reality be a double agent. He could funnel information to the Anti-Registration side using his status as an enforcer and find out if SHIELD is doing anything corrupt and he could give the Anti-Registration side the evidence. This way, Spider-Man can protect his family, yet follow his conscience. It would also be a neat way to put his skills as a photographer to good use.

[Red Lotus]

That might have to be the plot that is stated to be shown in New Avengers next year.


Anyhow I got a question for you, it seems like all of Spider-man lower ranked villains are getting the spotlight for once in the pages of Sensational and Friendly Neighborhood and are trying to kill Peter's friends, family, students and factuly.

That makes me wonder what's going to occur when Peter faces Norman and the rest of his higher ranked villains.

Anyhow here's a theory, within Amazing tie-ins to Civil War we see Norman and bunch of Spidey's villains kidnapping all those who are close to Peter and are setting to kill them in different locations if Peter doesn't show up to fight to save them. Captain America and the anti-forces figures that this is a trap and all of the hostages are in one location so they rush off to save them, while Peter with Tony and the pro-heroes fight off massive hordes of Spidey villains including some of their own. The anti-forces save all of the hostages but one: Aunt May, who Norman trys to kill ala Gwen Stacy style, but she is saved by the anti-forces. Once Peter defeats Norman and hears that she's saved by Captain America and the anti-squad he decides to switch sides and it is for his family's own safety.

Well what to do you think of this theory ? :D


I think its good but its 100% Opposite of mine. I think Marvel is tricking everyone with the Spider-man gets beat up by his villains. I I think the twist will be that Spider-man villains are working for SHIELD and Spider-man will have to lead them on a mission for the Pro Side.

[genesis]

What if they capture Captain America and Iron Man asks Spider-man to kill him and Spider-Man says no and leads into a huge battle with Iron Man. Just a really stupid thought, but stupider stuff has happened.

Or could be Peter fakes his death in a grand way to save Mary Jane and Aunt May and then has to live underground solving his marriage to Mary Jane. (This was brought up by another poster don't remember the name though).

Or he actually dies and the second cocoon awakens from the other.