Does Flash currently have the best rogues gallery in DC?

[Xothermic]

I've been thinking about it for almost a hour now and I've finally convinced myself that yeah, Flash does have the best rogues gallery.

Even better than Batman's. :eek:

What do you think?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Flash's villains certainly have more variety than Batman's array of lunatics, but it's very difficult to beat Batman's Rogues Gallery.

[Damo]

No.

Nope.

Uh, no.

Fraid not.

Sorry.

etc.

[JuggernautRM]

In what terms do you mean best.

Best as in most villianous?
Best as in funnest to read about?
Best as in most usefulllness?

[NotSuper]

Flash's villains certainly have more variety than Batman's array of lunatics, but it's very difficult to beat Batman's Rogues Gallery.
Indeed. I'd say that the consensus of Batman having the best Rogues Gallery is correct. A lot of great writers have built on his villains to such a degree that they've become legendary.

[phantom1592]

The thing I like about Flash's Rogues are that they are a "team" of their own. They gang up to take out flash.

Batman's rogues are all insane and loners. Even when they DO find a way to team up, it usually feels forced or obvious that they will turn on each other.

I would say Batman has more "cool" opponents. Flash has a few really great ones Cap. Cold/Boomerang, Reverse Flash, Mirror Master, Trickster I, but he also has a LOT of loosers. Tarpit, Girder, Trickster II, murmer, basically all the new guys.

[jerrymcl89]

The one advantage of the Flash's rogues is they tend to be non-murderous professional criminals, so their requent reappearances don't strain credibility as much as Batman continuing to put the liked of Freeze and the Joker through the revolving door of Arkham does.

Batman's villians are still the best, though.

[nuclearman]

Flash has an interesting bunch of rogues but Batman has the best.

[OzBat!]

The "organised" comment above is right, and is a point Flash made directly to Batman once.

Besides that, you could add "almost sane". Many of Flash's rogues have attempted to go straight at various times over the years, and it was believable within the context of the stories. You'd NEVER believe one of Bats foes trying that. The moral murkiness of the Flash rogues as opposed to the insanity of the Bats rogues is what makes the former appeal to me.

On the other hand, the insanity of Bats foes has lent themselves to some stellar stories and character examinations that, up till recently (in the semi-regular Rogues one-shot stories within the regular Flash series, and appearances like Heatwave in Superboy/Cadmus stories, and Captain Boomerang in Suicide Squad), the Flash villains just never got.

Now that Geoff Johns has reinvigorated the Flash Rogues, I think they're beginning to earn longer turns in the spotlight, rather than being relegated to single-powered science-gimmicked jokes or has-beens. And in the end, it's how they're treated that counts. On a pure power concept, there's not much to differ between Captain Cold and Mister Freeze: it's the backstory and personalities that both have had invested in them to different degrees that has made the difference.

All up, I prefer the Flash Rogues.

[handOFfate]

I would think that the A-listers are more or less even. For Batman, you have Joker, Penguin, Two-Face, Scarecrow, Riddler, Ra's Al Ghul, Poison Ivy, and Mr.Freeze. For Flash you have Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Trickster 1, Heatwave, Weather Wizard, Grodd, and Reverse Flash. It's hard to choose which one I find more interesting, they both have their good points. I'll say one thing, they easily have the best two rogue galleries in DC. Nobody else even comes close.
The difference is in the B and C list villains. Flash's lesser rogues suck. Guys like Tarpit, Girdir, Double Down, Plunder, Blacksmith, and others have little to offer other than a superpower. Batman, on the other hand, has some great B-listers. People like Scarface, Harley Quinn, Mr. Zsaz, Manbat, Hugo Strange, and Killer Croc can offer some great stories. So I have to go with Batman's rogues.

[Scott Evil]

I'd agree that Johns has definitely given Flash's rogues a sense of credibility in the last few years he was writer. It'll obviously take a few multi-million dollar movies to match the popularity of Batman's rogues; but the new Flash movie should be able to help a little.

Not to divert from the original topic, but I think that Spider-Man's rogues are pretty up there too; I like JMS' analysis that all his consisten rogues are basically animal totems put against Peter's 'spider totem' (this is what I liked before JMS got way too mystical w/ Peter's retcon origins)

So the way I see it, my hierarchy of rogues and why:
1. Spider Man rogues: Very memorable visually, easy to remember names and powers; Rhino= Charges, Shocker= Shocks, Electro= electricutes, Doc Ock= looks like an Ock.. etc. etc. Very easy for kids and noobs to pick up and say "Ahh.. I remember that one.."

2. Batman Rogues: Lunatics galore! Has an actual sense of danger (since most of these rogues are actually guilty of homicide). I really liked what they Bruce Timm did to the animated rogues; actually fleshed out plausible (yet comic-booky) origins that makes a reader/viewer actually empathize w/ them and genuinely think Batman's in trouble.

3. Flash Rogues: Awesome power sets and awesomely organized. With the popularity of "The Sopranos" and "The Shield"; it shows that being bad doesn't mean they don't have to be organized. With the exception of Zoom II (I love reverse-villains!) the Rogues show that just because they wear fancy costumes doens't make them any less human.

[Pól Rua]

See? The thing about Flash's Rogues to me was the 'friendly foe' rivalry they had with Barry, and now Wally. They know each other and have for awhile... they have history.
Like the story where Wally's only just become Flash and he's fighting (I think, though I may be a little fuzzy) Captain Cold and Heat Wave, and they're critiquing him the whole time.
"That was sloppy. Barry never would've done that. You're terrible."

Unfortunately, now that the powers that be have decided that silver age villains who just want to get a whole bunch of money and retire, or like weird deathtraps and stuff, is passe, they've been turned into a standard issue pack of psychotic, blood crazed mass murderers.

You know, like every other villain in the DCU.

Ho hum.

[maraxus60]

UMMMMM no Flash is DEAD
and Jay Garricks Villians aren't all that Special
Till they bring back Wally or Barry thats my stance and I'm sticking to it.
NOW having said that I really think that the NEW Flash is gonna be Barry so I'm not too bummed, and I'm actually looking forward to Seeing How that Happened

[phantom1592]

UMMMMM no Flash is DEAD
and Jay Garricks Villians aren't all that Special
Till they bring back Wally or Barry thats my stance and I'm sticking to it.
NOW having said that I really think that the NEW Flash is gonna be Barry so I'm not too bummed, and I'm actually looking forward to Seeing How that Happened


No. Barry is quite Dead. I have an issue with him dissolving into a skeleton ;)

[phantom1592]

See? The thing about Flash's Rogues to me was the 'friendly foe' rivalry they had with Barry, and now Wally. They know each other and have for awhile... they have history.
Like the story where Wally's only just become Flash and he's fighting (I think, though I may be a little fuzzy) Captain Cold and Heat Wave, and they're critiquing him the whole time.
"That was sloppy. Barry never would've done that. You're terrible."

Unfortunately, now that the powers that be have decided that silver age villains who just want to get a whole bunch of money and retire, or like weird deathtraps and stuff, is passe, they've been turned into a standard issue pack of psychotic, blood crazed mass murderers.

You know, like every other villain in the DCU.

Ho hum.


I love that Legends of the DC universe issue with Barry against a new "killing" enemy. Cap Cold actually helps take him down, and then asks Flash "not to treat him any different" I loved it.

Also Cold still has his "Rogue Rules" One of the big ones is they Don't kill Capes. It makes OTHER Capes mad, No crook would want THAT much attention.

[CMBMOOL]

If the Flash rogues don't kill CAPES heroes, why didn't they join up the Secret Six and fight against the Society ? :(

[phantom1592]

If the Flash rogues don't kill CAPES heroes, why didn't they join up the Secret Six and fight against the Society ? :(


Why? They aren't interested in killing crooks either. Mostly out to get money. They don't want the everyone with the words Justice in their team to hunt them down.... THey definetly don't want to screw with Luthor or the al' Ghuls.

[Scott Evil]

If the Flash rogues don't kill CAPES heroes, why didn't they join up the Secret Six and fight against the Society ? :(

I think it was mentioned in one of the VU issues that Talia offered money for their services. And there is the fact that Deathstroke and Black Adam were maiming and hurting people that didn't come with.. But it was also implied that if they get Captain Cold; the Society would get the entire Rogues- so I guess they were a package deal!

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think it was mentioned in one of the VU issues that Talia offered money for their services. And there is the fact that Deathstroke and Black Adam were maiming and hurting people that didn't come with.. But it was also implied that if they get Captain Cold; the Society would get the entire Rogues- so I guess they were a package deal!

Yeah, it was pretty much a business deal. The Rogues were never asked to kill, and I doubt the Society would ever press them on the subject

[90'sCartoonMan]

The one advantage of the Flash's rogues is they tend to be non-murderous professional criminals, so their requent reappearances don't strain credibility as much as Batman continuing to put the liked of Freeze and the Joker through the revolving door of Arkham does.

Good point. And also, during Johns' run, Mirror Master was on the loose and could break anyone out of Iron Heights.

I like Flash's foes better, but that's because not a whole lot of use has been made from Batman's villains (pre-OYL). A lot of Joker stories fall flat.


I think it was mentioned in one of the VU issues that Talia offered money for their services. And there is the fact that Deathstroke and Black Adam were maiming and hurting people that didn't come with.. But it was also implied that if they get Captain Cold; the Society would get the entire Rogues- so I guess they were a package deal!

I kind of lost track of the Rogues during that whole thing. I know Weather Wizard played a large role, but didn't Cold and a couple others take on the Outsiders?

[10xPete]

Batman has the best because they are more legendary as it has been said. No one knows about Flash's rouges unless they are a major Flash fan. But even if you are not a big Batman fan you've heard of at least half a dozen Bat rouges.

[Dr. Killtrocity]

Flash's pales in comparison to Batman. Even Superman, but Batman by far has the greatest Rogues Gallery of all-time.

[phantom1592]

I would definetly say that Flash's is better than Supermans. Who does he have? Luthor, Bizarro, Doomsday, Darksied?

two of those will kill ANYONE, and aren't really his enemies.


Its a shame too, Superman deserves some good enemies

[PastePotPete]

Batman's rogues gallery is bar none the greatest rogues gallery. His B-listers are almost as cool as his A-listers. His villains are scary. His villains are fun and exciting. But I think the main reason they are the best is that they have been developed more as characters, and this is in no small part due to the fact that they've been featured in more media than just comics,--movies, television--and sometimes earn their own limited series where they can be developed even further.

That said, I feel there's more pressure on Batman's rogues. More pressure on the writer, I mean. There have been so many great stories told about these baddies, that if someone writes a story that is sub-par, it really stands out as a stinker.

On the other hand, you look at Geoff Johns and say "Wow, he really developed the Flash's rogues gallery," and he did. But the bar was set pretty low. These characters used to be a total joke. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that just a few years previous, in Underworld Unleashed, Flash's rogues were considered to be so lame that they were all killed off in a giant explosion within the first three pages of the story. (they came back, obviously)

[Dr. Killtrocity]

I would definetly say that Flash's is better than Supermans. Who does he have? Luthor, Bizarro, Doomsday, Darksied?

two of those will kill ANYONE, and aren't really his enemies.


Its a shame too, Superman deserves some good enemies

Hmmmm I think it's more that the enemies Superman faces are usually a universal or global threat, rather than Flash's or Batman's that are wrecking havoc in just one city.

[handOFfate]

On the other hand, you look at Geoff Johns and say "Wow, he really developed the Flash's rogues gallery," and he did. But the bar was set pretty low. These characters used to be a total joke. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that just a few years previous, in Underworld Unleashed, Flash's rogues were considered to be so lame that they were all killed off in a giant explosion within the first three pages of the story. (they came back, obviously)

A lot of them were considered jokes, yeah. But Grodd and Reverse-Flash are Flash villains, and nobody takes those two lightly. Even so, this is a good point. John's development of the rogues is one of his more underappreciated contributions to DC.

[Simon Garth]

Flash has a few really great ones Cap. Cold/Boomerang, Reverse Flash, Mirror Master, Trickster I, but he also has a LOT of loosers. Tarpit, Girder, Trickster II, murmer, basically all the new guys.

One of the reasons I could never get into the Flash was his incredibly stupid opponents - of which the ones you quote as "really great" are pretty high up the list - stupid powers, stupid costumes and often stupid stories.

So, to answer the original question: no :)

[Apathy Boy]

Best rogues gallery? Nah, I still hold the opinion that nothing beats Superman for variety of villains, both in terms of motivation and ability. Too many of Flash's rogues are bank robbers with a gimmick.

On the other hand, you could make a pretty good argument that Flash has the best utilized rogues gallery. By all rights, Flash's villains should be pretty lame, but I'll be damned if they haven't turned out to be pretty cool characters for well over 40 years on the strength of well-defined personalities, the fun of seeing them interact with each other and being relatively free of stupid retcons and confusing history.

By contrast, Batman's rogues gallery is only now starting to get readable again now that Poison Ivy is alive again, Talia's the top Al Ghul, Two-Face is back and the Scarecrow is no longer the Scarebeast.
The next step is to get a formidable and non-confusing Brainiac, Zod, Darkseid, Parasite and Metallo.

Also Cold still has his "Rogue Rules" One of the big ones is they Don't kill Capes. It makes OTHER Capes mad, No crook would want THAT much attention.You're missing the end of that speech, or at least, the end of the speech as delivered to Wally during the "Ignition" arc.

"Of course, I guess I can make exception for you."

*Fires gun*

[Xothermic]

Best rogues gallery? Nah, I still hold the opinion that nothing beats Superman for variety of villains, both in terms of motivation and ability.

Cool. You're the first person I've read say that.

[Kara Zor El]

I think Batman has the best Rogues gallery by far. For me they are the ultimate line up and everything else is some sort of pale imitation. Mister Freeze out cools Captain Cold. Mister Freeze is motivated by the death of his wife, by his accident too, he has a suit that enhances his strength, will die in warmth, even has to have a specially built prison cell to keep him alive. Captain Cold invented his freeze gun just to slow down Flash so he could get away with robberies. And all the other guys who are simmilar just tend to be more fleshed out and hard core on Bats side. They often came first too. But this is my taste and obviously seems to be in a majority but it's refreshing to hear folks preffering Flash's or Supes.
I wonder which DC character has the most numerous rouges gallery. I'm pretty certain it's Batman. And I also wonder who has fought the most different villains, since conception.
Does anyone know?

[phantom1592]

Best rogues gallery? Nah, I still hold the opinion that nothing beats Superman for variety of villains, both in terms of motivation and ability. Too many of Flash's rogues are bank robbers with a gimmick.

You're missing the end of that speech, or at least, the end of the speech as delivered to Wally during the "Ignition" arc.

"Of course, I guess I can make exception for you."

*Fires gun*


SUPERMAN?!?! Hmmm Can't really agree with that. I don't think he has much of a rogues gallery at all. In a different thread we were trying to come up with a villian for a Superman Returns Sequel and I can't think of anyone that would be worth putting on the screen. Doomsday? Darkseid? Too big for a movie. Better for a JLA or something, Brainiac? A truly boring character. I can't stand any incarnation from evil carnie to evil robot. Bizarro has potential I suppose.



Yeah, I know they make exceptions once in a while. But I don't think they try to hard. ;) That was full power Cap Cold, against a Flash that had no memories, and Wally still lived.

[handOFfate]

Mister Freeze out cools Captain Cold. Mister Freeze is motivated by the death of his wife, by his accident too, he has a suit that enhances his strength, will die in warmth, even has to have a specially built prison cell to keep him alive. Captain Cold invented his freeze gun just to slow down Flash so he could get away with robberies.
Does anyone know?

I used to think this, but not anymore. Freeze's animated version is one of the best villains ever, but his comic version is a murderous psychopath with no resemblence (personality-wise) to the cartoon. Cold, on the other hand, has a pretty cool personality. He's the veteran rogue whose seen it all, and he passes that knowledge to other villains. Not necessarily evil, but willing to get his hands dirty. I remember a critic describing Cold as "a thoroughly corrupted Han Solo".
Also, if you want to talk about powers, Mirror Master has the coolest powers of any DC villain. It's hilarious that the authorities cant keep him in prison for any length of time because he can jump through any reflective surface.

[phantom1592]

I . I remember a critic describing Cold as "a thoroughly corrupted Han Solo".

HEHEHE I like that :)

[Kara Zor El]

[QUOTE=handOFfate]I remember a critic describing Cold as "a thoroughly corrupted Han Solo".
QUOTE]

If so then I'll describe Freeze as a frosty Darth Vader.

[handOFfate]

If so then I'll describe Freeze as a frosty Darth Vader.

The animated version, cool. The comics version, nah.

[Kara Zor El]

What about the Batman and Robin version? Arnie's Mister Freeze was absolutley........

The animated versoin was by far the best you are right. The voice the story everything but I still prefer the comic version over Captain Cold but that's just me. I like bauld heads and power suits over furry parka hoods and snow googgles. I'm so shallow.