When did Supervillains becomes monsters?

[lonewolf23k]

If there's one thing about modern comics that's begun to irritate me, it's how supervillains have gone from "crooks with powers" to "monstrous, murderous psychopaths with powers". What, is it so hard to write stories about supervillains who are just after the money, as oppoed to being constantly out for blood?

I think the best (or worst) exemple of this is Dr Light.. Ever since Infinite Crisis retconned him from an ambitious criminal with light-powers to a complete deviant, I can't help but feel.. sleasy... when reading stories with him now.

...Is it just me?

[Brian Cronin]

A lot of it, I guess, is storytelling shorthand.

It's just plain easier to, rather than make the villain's plot more interesting to just make the villains more dastardly.

-Brian

[Robin3]

common thugs are boring

[Dan Apodaca]

common thugs are boring

The sales numbers on Grand Theft Auto beg to differ.

[Fabian]

The sales numbers on Grand Theft Auto beg to differ.
Like your character was being proper and followed every traffic law and didn't have sex with hookers.

Hell, I do that now.

[Elegance Liberty]

Because they want villians to be 'deep' and 'interesting'. Or some jibberish like that.

[ocelotrevs]

Villains need to have an angle, just robbing a bank doesn't give any insight into anything, except their greed.
If their going mental and stuff, then that makes things more interesting.
Anyone can rob a bank, not everyone can break into the Watchtower.

[Cei-U!]

Super-heroes need to do more than battle super-villains. They need to connect to the real world or they lose their humanity. Crime is real. Its effect on society is real. And there are innumerable ways to tell a story about it. It doesn't all have to be the Mirror Master robbing a bank.

Using cosmic powers to conquer/destroy the universe isn't real. Even as symbology, there's nothing deep or interesting about 99% of such stories. If there is more than one way to tell a story about a cosmic super-villain, and I grant there probably is, you wouldn't know it from the comics themselves. They're all about jerryrigging a justification for the latest retcon.

We need to see crooks standing slack-jawed as their bullets bounce off Superman's chest or we lose the 'super'. We need to see Spider-Man saving a child from a fatal fall or we lose the 'hero'. Without that context, all they are is costumes and superpowers in endless battle. Yawn.

All in my opinion, of course.

Cei-U!
Fiesty this morning!

[Citizen V]

Its all a current fad,currently Marvel and even DC might be trying to see which villian they can turn into the bigger monstrocity.Im starting not to like it either,with DC and Dr.Light and Superboy PRIME.Marvel with The Scarlet Witch.

[JLarson]

It seems pretty simple to me - if you're trying to pull a heist, or a scam, or something like that, dressing up in a flashy villain costume makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand, if you're a delusional sociopath...

[Strannik]

If there's one thing about modern comics that's begun to irritate me, it's how supervillains have gone from "crooks with powers" to "monstrous, murderous psychopaths with powers". What, is it so hard to write stories about supervillains who are just after the money, as oppoed to being constantly out for blood?

It's not really a modern innovation. Pulp villains (most notably Spider's villains) and a number of Golden Age supervillains could easily fit this description. So, really, comics are meerly returning to their roots.

That said, I don't mind psychopaths or crooks with powers. A bit of balance goes the long way.

[JulianPerez]

I agree with whoever it was that said above that it is easier for a slacker writer to have a villain perform naughty deeds, than it is to have the writer create a plan that demonstrates the villain's competence.

Jim Shooter said in response to WOMEN IN REFRIGERATORS a quote that can also be applied here to "Dr. Lightifying" writers:

"They're not sick. They just suck."

I did however, like the detail of Gorilla Grodd acquiring a taste for human flesh. It was scary and pulpish, an Edgar Rice Burroughs esque touch: a carnivorous ape.

Still, if you want an antidote to the Meltzers of the world, check out the recent issues of JSA - there they have the Gentleman Ghost performing a zany jewel heist. YES!

[Greg Hatcher]

Are you asking the actual historical question? Because, depending on where you start counting from, both times it was the Joker; Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams started the ball rolling with "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge," but it was Frank Miller that gave him the freaky homoerotic overtones and the pedophile henchman in Dark Knight. And I hold Alan Moore and The Killing Joke responsible for a lot of it too.

I agree that it's lazy writing. My feeling is that with superheroes, you have the obligation to suit your villain to the story; they work best as a sort of exaggerated metaphor. Batman's Rogue's Gallery is best for this. You want a dark psychological exploration of fear, you use the Scarecrow. You want something Holmesian and intellectual, a puzzle whodunit, there's the Riddler. You want something kind of sexy and fun, a heist/caper style of story, you use Catwoman. International intrigue and suspense, Ra's Al Ghul. Tragedy, Two-Face. Grand Guignol with a touch of absurdism, the Joker. And so on. Superheroes are tailor-made for this. But you have to have the story first.

I think a GREAT deal of this comes from the current crop of professionals being fans first and writers second. They are trying so hard to make everything adult and cool, they forget that most of these Rogue's Gallery types were created to serve specific story functions. I don't want the Penguin to be the Kingpin with an umbrella. I want him to be a genius master thief engaging Batman in a battle of wits involving umbrellas and birds. That's what he's FOR.

However, I'm afraid that horse has been out of the barn since the late 80's. The Dr. Light debacle is just the most obvious manifestation of it. But the problem's been there for decades.

You can escalate the stakes for the hero without throwing out everything about the villain that made him fun in the first place. Take Dr. Light as a handy example. Okay, so the story problem the writer has is that everyone thinks he's a joke and we want him to be a badass again. How do we do that? Well, what's his riff? He's a Gardner Fox science villain, and his gimmick is light, photonic energy of all kinds. So we show him at the beginning of the story fuming about his also-ran status and determined to prove himself. The key note to hit is that in the DCU there is no one -- NO ONE -- who knows more about light and photons than Dr. Light. And that makes him dangerous.

Now, I could build a story around that if that was the assignment. Warren Ellis has made a minor specialty of that kind of science-fiction doubletalk. It could be done. They just don't do it. I think it's partly out of laziness and partly -- maybe mostly -- that seething adolescent need to prove that superheroes really are adult and cool. And sex and violence have always been comics' shorthand for 'adult content.'

It's really kind of stupid because that whole thing about superhero fan = nerd is mostly in fans' heads, any more. That fight's over and we won.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Now, I could build a story around that if that was the assignment. Warren Ellis has made a minor specialty of that kind of science-fiction doubletalk. It could be done. They just don't do it. I think it's partly out of laziness and partly -- maybe mostly -- that seething adolescent need to prove that superheroes really are adult and cool. And sex and violence have always been comics' shorthand for 'adult content.'

I wonder how much of it is also that so many of today's comics writers are, frankly, under-educated about a lot of the stuff inherent to these classic characters?

Characters like Dr. Light, Chronos and Mirror Master were created by comics writers who grew up with a fascination with science, which led them into science fiction and comics. They could make up the "Flash facts" and come up with wonky-science ways for Adam Strange to defeat the giant monster of the month because they had a solid grounding in science. Warren Ellis or Grant Morrison know the science to pull off stuff like what you suggest about Dr. Light, but "knows all there is to know about photons and light" doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to someone like Judd Winnick. There was certainly no sign of an understanding of that in, say, the issues of GREEN ARROW a few months back which showed the bad Doctor on his rampage.

Written right, a guy with photon powers could be pretty amazing. I mean, look at concept characters like Jack Hawksmoor or the Engineer and think what Ellis could do with Dr. Light. But, a lot of the current know-nothings don't seem to know - or care - enough about science to be able to come up with anything cool to do with a character like Dr. Light - he's just another guy who fires power beams at people - so instead they try to make him scary by turning him into a rapist.

Comics could do with a lot more writers like Moore, Morrison, Ellis, etc., who know about a lot of things other than comics.

[Matt]

Some of the best uses I've seen of Dr Light was the following;

The Final Night tie in issue of Green Lantern; wherein Dr. Light erupts out of Kyle's power battery and proceeds to usurp control of each and every power ring construct Kyra creates - simply because they're made of light and light is his to control as he sees fit. It made Dr. Light a terrifying powerful character who could definitely play in the big leagues - the issue also showed capably what a coward Dr Light really was, fleeing the planet as soon as Kyle explained that the sun was dying.

Rock of Ages wherein Dr Light uses his powers to basically disassemble and send away the (at the time) energy based Superman, robbing the JLA of one of their most powerful members. Again, it showed him to be a remarkably powerful villain but thanks to the dialogue also showed him to still be a coward.

[Greg Hatcher]

Written right, a guy with photon powers could be pretty amazing. I mean, look at concept characters like Jack Hawksmoor or the Engineer and think what Ellis could do with Dr. Light.

Actually, I've spent the last few minutes since posting that sighing over that very thing. That would rock SO hard.

You do get a little taste of that kind of approach in the Ellis arc in JLA Classified, "New Maps of Hell." It was every bit as tough and cool as Global Frequency or The Authority, but it was still recognizably the JLA. That's what gripes me, is that it could be done. For God's sake, you could spend half an hour with Google and come up with lots of light-based ways to make Dr. Light scary. Or even just make something up. "I've found a new use for those government Warhawk satellites. They've altered the resonance frequency of visible light in the western hemisphere. Right now every human being in North America is functionally blind. In 24 hours I will alter it again to cause irreversible brain damage to every man, woman and child on Earth if you don't give in to my demands. Tick tock, Justice League."

My Warren Ellis imitation, ladies and gentlemen. But that's all it takes. The inner conviction on the part of the writer that this guy is scary and means business. You don't have to make him a rapist to demonstrate that.

[Shellhead]

I think that there has also been a vast cultural shift in America since the Silver Age of comics. Not only are the comic fans significantly older on average, but they are extremely jaded. I don't know if we should blame Nixon or internet porn or even Quentin Tarantino, but our pop culture has become coarse and degenerate. While I enjoy a certain amount of that degeneracy, I do think that it's taking a toll on our society.

When I was a kid, kids played outside after school until they had to go home to eat dinner with their family. Today, latchkey kids stay inside and surf the net or stay busy with playstation until a parent finally gets home, and the family dinner is an increasingly rare event. Teenage girls have been dressing like prostitutes, and teenage guys are less likely than ever to get into college. Everybody swears like a sailor, drives like a maniac, and displays the attention span of a hyperactive insect.

So super-villains can't just rob banks to entertain modern readers. They need to commit vivid atrocities, involving rape, murder and/or dismemberment, to provoke any reaction from jaded modern readers. We like it, the sicker the better. It's like the final days of the roman empire, bread and circuses and wine orgies until the barbarians knock down the gates.

[JLarson]

It seems pretty simple to me - if you're trying to pull a heist, or a scam, or something like that, dressing up in a flashy villain costume makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand, if you're a delusional sociopath...

No comments?

Dressing up in bright green scorpion armour to rob a bank? Stupid.

[lonewolf23k]

It seems pretty simple to me - if you're trying to pull a heist, or a scam, or something like that, dressing up in a flashy villain costume makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand, if you're a delusional sociopath...

Actually, if you have superpowers and you're pulling off a heist, wearing a flashy villain costume makes perfect sense.

...See, all people will remember is the costume, not the guy underneath.

[lonewolf23k]

You can escalate the stakes for the hero without throwing out everything about the villain that made him fun in the first place. Take Dr. Light as a handy example. Okay, so the story problem the writer has is that everyone thinks he's a joke and we want him to be a badass again. How do we do that? Well, what's his riff? He's a Gardner Fox science villain, and his gimmick is light, photonic energy of all kinds. So we show him at the beginning of the story fuming about his also-ran status and determined to prove himself. The key note to hit is that in the DCU there is no one -- NO ONE -- who knows more about light and photons than Dr. Light. And that makes him dangerous.


...I couldn't have said it better myself. I've always felt there's no such thing as a lame villain, just a badly written one (with the Ten-Eyed Man being the exception). And a guy who can manipulate Light on such a level just screams potential..

[Matt]

No comments?

Dressing up in bright green scorpion armour to rob a bank? Stupid.

Not necessarily, you know. If you burst into a bank wearing an outlandish costume, then the focus of the terrified customers and bank staff would be on the outlandish costume and not, for example, your face or other identifying features.

True, you'd be better off wearing some sort of mask to obscure your identity but wearing a silly costume would have some sort of beneficial effect.

[Brian Cronin]

That was the plan of the brilliant bank robber in the book (and film) Quick Change. Accentuate major attributes, and that's all people will remember.

-Brian

[TomStillwell]

That makes me think of the Bare Assed Bank Robbers from Wanted, supposedly the first supervillains.

Everybody in the bank was so shocked they were naked nobody saw their faces. And none of the heroes wanted to tussle with a bunch of naked dudes.

I think people will really like the villain I'm writing in my book Honor Brigade. His motivation is a new one and something that's completely makes sense in a practical manner and at the same time is massively evil.

[OzBat!]

I thought this was the one thing Geoff Johns did well in his last Flash arc, Rogue War. By this stage I feel that Geoff was running on empty on the title, but the Rogue camps effectively split into the older villains verses the new monsters. And I think the old guys held their end well. Not all the badguys need to be monsters, and I think this is one title that SHOULD hold the standard for the others to follow.

[Ogre U AHole]

Post #13 by Greg Hatcher and post #17 by Shellhead pretty much sum up my feeling on the topic.

Also, if you find yourself asking why somebody is robbing a bank in costume, maybe super-hero comics aren't for you. Not a personal attack but I find the grim and gritty infusion into super-hero comics unsettling. There are/were a few writers who did some interesting things with it such as Miller and Moore but the real problem occurs when fans of those works become "writers" themselves and think they can do the same kinds of things only with much less apparent talent.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

To be fair somethings pure evil villains work and sometimes they don't. People seemed to like the fact that Purple Man was transformed into a psychopath rapist, but don't like the fact that Dr. Light was tranformed into a psychopath rapist. There is a reason for this, PM mainly stars in grim pulp books (Alias and Daredevil) while Dr. Light is a JLA villain, grim pulp heroes are better equiped to handle rapists than brightly costmed supr heroes.

I think Joker is too evil the comics, I like the BTAS version of the Joker, who could go from wacky trickster to dangerous psychopath, less evil than the comics version, but still pretty evil. Though I don't characters who are mindless killers for the sake of being mindless killers, like Carnage, he has no style or cleverness. But some villain are born to be pure evil, the Red Skull doesn't work any other way, the guy is just evil.

Again not all villains should be made more evil, some villains can become more interesting if they become more tragic or more honourable, like Mr. Freeze in BTAS. I would like to explore the motives of costumed criminals though, because frankly using powers to steal is really stupid, when you can use them to make a ton of money. Some villains are stupid and so their criminal careers make sense because they couldn't think of a better way to use their powers (Electro and Rhino), some villains get a thrill out of stealing and that makes sense (Captain Cold and the rogues), some have ideological motives (Ra's Al Ghul, the Ghost), some are motivated by tragic events (Dr. Doom, BTAS Mr. Freeze) and some are insane or just evil.

What I don't get are villains who try to get rich from crime, constantly get their butts kicked, are clever enough to invent amazing technology, but not smart to sell it and be rich (which is why Stilt-Man quiting was the best move he ever made, IMO.)

Sometimes making a villain a monster works and sometimes it doesn't it all depends on context.

[Perry Holley]

To be fair somethings pure evil villains work and sometimes they don't. People seemed to like the fact that Purple Man was transformed into a psychopath rapist, but don't like the fact that Dr. Light was tranformed into a psychopath rapist. There is a reason for this, PM mainly stars in grim pulp books (Alias and Daredevil) while Dr. Light is a JLA villain, grim pulp heroes are better equiped to handle rapists than brightly costmed supr heroes.Also, Purple Man was a mind controller from the day he was introduced, so being a rapist is not too far of a stretch from the original concept. Dr. Light being a rapist, OTOH, is pretty much completely out of left field.

What I don't get are villains who try to get rich from crime, constantly get their butts kicked, are clever enough to invent amazing technology, but not smart to sell it and be rich (which is why Stilt-Man quiting was the best move he ever made, IMO.) Well, with the Marvel tech-based villains a lot of their tech actually came from the Tinkerer, IIRC.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Also, Purple Man was a mind controller from the day he was introduced, so being a rapist is not too far of a stretch from the original concept. Dr. Light being a rapist, OTOH, is pretty much completely out of left field.

Well, with the Marvel tech-based villains a lot of their tech actually came from the Tinkerer, IIRC.

That and Killgrave kidnapped Karen Page and took her to a hotel room in his first appearance.

You mean how the Tinkerer was revealed to be an agent of latveria, promoting terrorism in the US, by providing tech to those guys? I wonder how they felt about that?

[Perry Holley]

You mean how the Tinkerer was revealed to be an agent of latveria, promoting terrorism in the US, by providing tech to those guys? I wonder how they felt about that?I think that even before Bendis' Secret War mini, it was stated that Tinkerer had created and/or maintained a lot of the tech gadgets for guys like the Shocker (for example). I may be misremembering, though.

[dancj]

Also, Purple Man was a mind controller from the day he was introduced, so being a rapist is not too far of a stretch from the original concept. Dr. Light being a rapist, OTOH, is pretty much completely out of left field.

It being out of the left field was kind of the point. It wasn't some unexplained change of personality. It was us discovering that the Dr Light we'd been seeing for years was a lobotomised version, and in this story his true personality came back.

It worked for me

[AllisterH]

That and Killgrave kidnapped Karen Page and took her to a hotel room in his first appearance.



Don't forget his daughter Persuasion/Purple Girl. She wasn't exactly "wanted" by her mother so pretty much Killgrave has always been a rapist. No big surprise as compared to Dr. Light (the Dr.Light pre-mindwipe was never shown to be a rapist yet we're supposed to believe he was always one?)

[pennywisdom]

I think that there has also been a vast cultural shift in America since the Silver Age of comics. Not only are the comic fans significantly older on average, but they are extremely jaded. I don't know if we should blame Nixon or internet porn or even Quentin Tarantino, but our pop culture has become coarse and degenerate. While I enjoy a certain amount of that degeneracy, I do think that it's taking a toll on our society.

When I was a kid, kids played outside after school until they had to go home to eat dinner with their family. Today, latchkey kids stay inside and surf the net or stay busy with playstation until a parent finally gets home, and the family dinner is an increasingly rare event. Teenage girls have been dressing like prostitutes, and teenage guys are less likely than ever to get into college. Everybody swears like a sailor, drives like a maniac, and displays the attention span of a hyperactive insect.

So super-villains can't just rob banks to entertain modern readers. They need to commit vivid atrocities, involving rape, murder and/or dismemberment, to provoke any reaction from jaded modern readers. We like it, the sicker the better. It's like the final days of the roman empire, bread and circuses and wine orgies until the barbarians knock down the gates.
Andy Rooney? Is that you?

[Alan2099]

I think it's just lazy writwer directed to a cynical market that's accepting it without question (most of the time). Writers are trying to pass of shock value and bitter cynical bleak outlooks as being more realistic. if that's the way you're working, a guy dressed up like a Vulture can't just be robing banks. he needs to be vicious and psycotic. It's more "realistic".

I feel that for the most part this actually takes away from the effect of the characters. It drains them of what makes them special. The biggest example of this is the Joker. He used to pull some really zany wacky and crazy capers. Now he shows up "unexpectedly", everybody mentions who unexpected and unpredicatble it was, he kills somebody, makes a joke about it, and that's about it. There's barely any trace of the character left, just because writers are afraid to go full out and wacky with the characters and they're afraid that if his master plan is to kidnap all the clowns and commedians in the city so he can win title of the best clown by default then the readers would say that it's not realistic enough and would shoot it down.

Me, I'm sick of "realism" in comics. 99% of the time it's just grim and gritty under a different name. Superhero books have a built in sillyness to them. Embrace it. Have the heroes fight living cartoon characters or talking purple gorillas on the moon. Not everybody needs to be a murderer or a rapist.

[Michael P]

I think that even before Bendis' Secret War mini, it was stated that Tinkerer had created and/or maintained a lot of the tech gadgets for guys like the Shocker (for example). I may be misremembering, though.
Yup. He even outfitted the Black Cat with some gear, after she went straight.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

...I couldn't have said it better myself. I've always felt there's no such thing as a lame villain, just a badly written one (with the Ten-Eyed Man being the exception). And a guy who can manipulate Light on such a level just screams potential..


*Ahem!*

*stares at Lonewolf unhappily*


Now, back to the Superhero thing. I can trace the true transformation of Supervillain from common criminal to psychopath to 1986. That was the year Julie Schwartz retired. His background was the science fiction and pulp world, so all the characters he oversaw had the pulpy sci-fi feel to them. When he retired, so did that pulpy style. More's the pity. I doubt you could find one use of the word rape in any of his comics.

[Strannik]

Now, back to the Superhero thing. I can trace the true transformation of Supervillain from common criminal to psychopath to 1986. That was the year Julie Schwartz retired. His background was the science fiction and pulp world, so all the characters he oversaw had the pulpy sci-fi feel to them. When he retired, so did that pulpy style. More's the pity. I doubt you could find one use of the word rape in any of his comics.

Well, as I mentioned before on this thread, pulp villains a pretty sick bunch. The Spider and the Shadow battled many villains whose plans involved poisoning the entire city through some deadly genetically-modified disease. Operator 5 would up facing off against the Purple Empire, which devastated many major American cities. The list goes on. So the pulpy style never really went away.

[Alan2099]

So perhaps the question should be, "when did the body count become more important than the gimic and story?"

[Cyke]

I'm reminded of the Juggernaut. I don't care if he's a superhero, he's still a bank-robbing thug. Apparently he's so good at his job that he's fought almost every hero on Marvel Earth and then some. However, for all the insight we learn about him over the years, such as his inferiority complex compared to Xavier, his dependence on his powers, his fears of anyone stronger than him, his friendship with Sammy the Squid-Boy, etc. etc, he's still just a bank robber at heart who struggles with his identity and his place in life. To me, that's proof positive that you CAN take a common thug and make him interesting.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

I think it's just lazy writwer directed to a cynical market that's accepting it without question (most of the time). Writers are trying to pass of shock value and bitter cynical bleak outlooks as being more realistic. if that's the way you're working, a guy dressed up like a Vulture can't just be robing banks. he needs to be vicious and psycotic. It's more "realistic".

I feel that for the most part this actually takes away from the effect of the characters. It drains them of what makes them special. The biggest example of this is the Joker. He used to pull some really zany wacky and crazy capers. Now he shows up "unexpectedly", everybody mentions who unexpected and unpredicatble it was, he kills somebody, makes a joke about it, and that's about it. There's barely any trace of the character left, just because writers are afraid to go full out and wacky with the characters and they're afraid that if his master plan is to kidnap all the clowns and commedians in the city so he can win title of the best clown by default then the readers would say that it's not realistic enough and would shoot it down.

Me, I'm sick of "realism" in comics. 99% of the time it's just grim and gritty under a different name. Superhero books have a built in sillyness to them. Embrace it. Have the heroes fight living cartoon characters or talking purple gorillas on the moon. Not everybody needs to be a murderer or a rapist.

I still think they should explore the motivate of why they criminals in the first place, they ususally give good reasons for heroes being heroes, so they should do the same thing with villains. Take the Vulture, he is a criminal his partner at his engineering firm cheated and had him brought up on charges to gain control of the company. Vulture robbed the company blind for revenge and became both bitter at society for cheating him and thrilled with the new found power he had, which made him feel young again. That is why Vulture is a criminal. A super villain robbing banks is fine, but there should be a reason why he is robbing banks, a generic bank robber is just as boring as a generic psychopath, that's why I hate Carnage, he is a generic psychopath, I don't lie generic characters. But some characters were just born to be evil, the Red Skull wouldn't work as anything besides a pure evil character.

The Joker is in danger being just another generic psychopath, because all the cleveriness and wackiness is drained from the character and he becomes a generic psychopatrh, with no uniqueness. That's why I like BTAS Joker he combines the wacky trickster with the inhuman psychopath pretty well.

[kane]

It is so because of the motivation. There is no reason for the most super villains to rob a bank.


- You are an scientific genius? Why should you rob a bank instead of selling your invention or using it yourself in the industry. Why should you build a giant robot (which costs you probably more than you can find in the bank) instead of selling the robot

- You have super powers? Why use the power to rob bank, if you can use your abilities in another way and become rich.

[Tommy]

You know I had this huge response written out and then my computer shut down and it got deleted…

I think that there has also been a vast cultural shift in America since the Silver Age of comics. Not only are the comic fans significantly older on average, but they are extremely jaded. I don't know if we should blame Nixon or internet porn or even Quentin Tarantino, but our pop culture has become coarse and degenerate. While I enjoy a certain amount of that degeneracy, I do think that it's taking a toll on our society.

There has been a shift in our culture. But it is really due to ripping off the veneer that the 1940’s and 50’s put over their time period.

The 1920’s were a violent, sexual age. Prohibition created organized crime. World War I had put women in the workplace and they stayed there. The rich were getting richer and the poor were getting unionized. Gay communities were forming in secret. Black culture was experiencing a resonance. It was a period of great cultural upheaval.

The 1930’s were just as crazy. The rich were now poor and the poor were wondering the nation with no prospects. The Midwest was a dustbowl. Prohibition ended and the untouchables were warring on crime. And the newly created comic heroes all reflected that. Superman was a dirty commie fighting evil capitalists, Batman was a murderous vigilante fighting organized crime (in the guise of a psychopath like the Joker), and Wonder Woman was a barely contained S&M magazine.

Then WWII hit. My pet theory is that it was so horrific (with concentration camps, property destruction, atomic weapons, casualties) that when it was over everyone decided to be normal, sanitized, unified and keep up with the Joneses. It was an age of ferreting out dissension. A time when we created a culture of consumerism. People had well defined roles and if you felt you didn’t fit into them, well you just kept quiet about it.

However scratch the surface of that and you get to the Civil Rights movement, and Women’s Liberation. And the heroes of that era transformed. Superman became a big blue boy scout. Batman was now off in wacky adventure territory and not gritty crime fighting. And the X-men were canceled since people didn’t want to read about a group of outcasts that society hates.

When I was a kid, kids played outside after school until they had to go home to eat dinner with their family. Today, latchkey kids stay inside and surf the net or stay busy with playstation until a parent finally gets home, and the family dinner is an increasingly rare event. Teenage girls have been dressing like prostitutes, and teenage guys are less likely than ever to get into college. Everybody swears like a sailor, drives like a maniac, and displays the attention span of a hyperactive insect.
AHHH…a “kids these days” rant.

Well for starters women can work outside the home (and advance in their corers), are single parents, and in many cases a two parent income is required to support a family since Americans have not had a REAL raise since the 1970’s. Thus latchkey kids are more… visible. Prior to modern times there were plenty of latch key kids, they just were not talked about. There was no term for them. And in the past many families ate in front of the TV. We are just getting rid of the pretend togetherness.

Teenage girls are dressing like prostitutes since teenage girls want to be women. Which all goes back as far as human history. It is nothing new, this manifestation isn’t even new.

As far as the men attending college that is just wrong. New York Times “It is not that men are in a downward spiral: they are going to college in greater numbers and are more likely to graduate than two decades ago.”

And everyone in the 1950’s swore like a sailor, drove like a maniac, and had the attention span of a hyperactive insect.” It was once more just not talked about, and we didn’t have fancy terms like “road rage” back then.

When So super-villains can't just rob banks to entertain modern readers. They need to commit vivid atrocities, involving rape, murder and/or dismemberment, to provoke any reaction from jaded modern readers. We like it, the sicker the better. It's like the final days of the roman empire, bread and circuses and wine orgies until the barbarians knock down the gates.

Ahh comparing modern times to the end of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire fell for many reasons none of which had to do with bread, wine, circuses, or orgies. It mostly was due to military policies. And the Roman Empire continued as the Byzantine Empire for 400 more years. The fall of the Roman Empire never gets old no matter how many times people have used it in the last 1,000 years. Super villains are just returning to their 1930’s roots.

[Cei-U!]

World War I had put women in the workplace and they stayed there.

Not to pick nits but that was a post-World War II phenomenon. While women had come to dominate certain fields (such as teaching, nursing and secretarial work) between the turn of the century and America's entry into the war in late '17, relatively few men fought overseas during the year or so we participated and there was thus little impact on industrial manpower. There is no WW1 equivalent of Rosie the Riveter.

Cei-U!
I summon the minor quibble!

[Tommy]

Not to pick nits but that was a post-World War II phenomenon. While women had come to dominate certain fields (such as teaching, nursing and secretarial work) between the turn of the century and America's entry into the war in late '17, relatively few men fought overseas during the year or so we participated and there was thus little impact on industrial manpower. There is no WW1 equivalent of Rosie the Riveter.
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3449/womantaskposterjo1.jpg

Well if you want to get into the nitty gritty... the first factory workers (way back in the 1800's) were women. Further 30,000 American women were in the military during WWI. Approximately 1,600,000 British women joined the workforce between 1914 and 1918 in Government departments, public transport, the post office, as clerks in business, as land workers and in factories, especially in the dangerous munitions factories, which were employing 950,000 women by Armistice Day (as compared to 700,000 in Germany). And in her book (1918) Ida Clyde Clark stated there were 2,000,000 American women in the factories.

[Alan2099]

Yes, but where those women super villians?

[/Obvious attempt to get back on subject]

[Cei-U!]

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3449/womantaskposterjo1.jpg

Well if you want to get into the nitty gritty... the first factory workers (way back in the 1800's) were women. Further 30,000 American women were in the military during WWI. Approximately 1,600,000 British women joined the workforce between 1914 and 1918 in Government departments, public transport, the post office, as clerks in business, as land workers and in factories, especially in the dangerous munitions factories, which were employing 950,000 women by Armistice Day (as compared to 700,000 in Germany). And in her book (1918) Ida Clyde Clark stated there were 2,000,000 American women in the factories.

Hmm, interesting. I'll have to look into this further.

Cei-U!
Never afraid to be proven wrong!

[Tommy]

Yes, but where those women super villians?

[/Obvious attempt to get back on subject]
Actually they were! If you notice a glut of Femme Fatals showing up in the 30's it is because men were returning from the front to find women in the work place... and thus evil manipulative women filled the film noir genre.

[CE_Rap]

There just isn't any balance anymore. Whoever said the statement about there 99% of realism in comics, if that were true, even by a fraction, there would be much more balance.

The fact is, guts, sex and all that is what doing nowadays. The problem is that EVERY VILLIAN has to to be this extreme. There is absolutely no balance.

I should admit, when i read ID Crisis, I was floored by Doctor Light's actions, but i thought it was interesting that he was such a monster and got nutered by Zatanna. On the other hand, around when i read that was when i started really getting into DC books, so i didn't really know Doc. Light was the typical "cartoony" villian. Basically, i thought rape was something he could conceivably commit if given the chance. When i heard that this was not the case, i was like........"not very good character development." You can't have people do things so outrageously out of sorts just for shock value. That IS lazy, and stupid.

Goofy villians used to annoy me sometimes as a kid and i enjoyed episodes where the villians were cunning and shrewd. Now, i realize that the realism comes in having balance. In real life, there are a @#$# load more idiot criminals than masterminds. There should be more instances where superheroes have to deal with common thugs.

A really interesting arc would be if a Superhero, [take your pick] is going through something personal, and that's the story: how he has to deal with this and deal with these little know-nothing villians. He could curse the fact that even though they are not evil geniuses, their number is staggering. The realization that he will always have to sacrifice victims to save victims [meaning that as he saves one group, another group across town is victimized]. Yet at the end of the arc, he understands that even that little bit he does makes a difference. I think that's real, and i imagine there are real people, like fire fighters, who feel this way.

I'd love to read a book with a rogues gallery that was truly colorful. One guy who is just the dumb, insecure, muscle thug (Wrecker, pre-hero Juggernaut), one who's smart enough to gather these people (Black Tom, Fabien Cortez), one who has a gimmick and is obsessed with maintaining it (Trickster, Capt. Cold), one who is incrediblly dark and sinister (Purple Man), one who is so plagued by their own life, they truly see no other way (BTAS Freeze, even Demona from 'Gargoyles'), one who is a serial killer (Carnage), one who funadamentally believes his actions are acts of justice (Ras Al'ghul, Magneto, Reverend Stryker), one who is more like an anti-hero, just doing his own thing with no concern of moral intentions (Spike from 'Buffy', Macbeth and Xanatos from 'Gargoyles'), one who wants the end of all things (Apocalypse, Darkseid), one who is quirky yet incredibly unperdictable (Joker), and one who can orchestrate all things on a greater scale (Lex Luthor).

Tip the scales, and don't set up one hero with a rogues gallery centered on one type. Spider-man, Batman, Superman, and now even the X-teams, should be able to take down their arch nemesis, maybe after a week of investigating and fighting, then the day after [or maybe even the same day], take care of the daily trash like a gang-fight, or armed robbery, or DUI, or robbery, or rape, whatever. They shouldn't feel so above the petty, thinking that those types of villians are for cops.

That is one thing i liked a lot about ID Crisis, in addition to the mystery. It dealt with the "B" crew, the ones who have to deal with the clean up, the daily trash from a big battle.

Ultimately, even the villian needs a "how i become" story. And to add color and "realism" some shouldn't be villians we relate to or understand. A handful should be nuts, sick, twisted, ridiculous, sad, pathetic, etc. Villians don't need to be plotting earth's demise for the hero to stand above them heroically. That's just what i believe.

[dancj]

I should admit, when i read ID Crisis, I was floored by Doctor Light's actions, but i thought it was interesting that he was such a monster and got nutered by Zatanna. On the other hand, around when i read that was when i started really getting into DC books, so i didn't really know Doc. Light was the typical "cartoony" villian. Basically, i thought rape was something he could conceivably commit if given the chance. When i heard that this was not the case, i was like........"not very good character development." You can't have people do things so outrageously out of sorts just for shock value. That IS lazy, and stupid.

Not at all. The whole point was that Zatanna had lobotomized him turning him into the goofy villain. They couldn't have done that story with a villain who hadn't been goofy until now.

Dan

[CE_Rap]

Not at all. The whole point was that Zatanna had lobotomized him turning him into the goofy villain. They couldn't have done that story with a villain who hadn't been goofy until now.

Dan

Yea, but it was too much of a left turn, and i can see why some people got ticked about it. A few people said it in this thread, he's teh master of light, the only true master of light. It would have made more sense for him to do something vicious to Sue using light than just raping her. It's far too out of character, and makes yet another villian fall into the psycho class. A villian who has plenty of creative potential way past being a twisted sociopath at heart. I find it a bit lazy to resort him to that instead of taking teh extra time to show how ingenious he is.

Again i'm just going on characterization. I don't kno DC quite as well, so that's just my humble opinion.

[Shellhead]

Tommy, you have some excellent points... very persuasive. But I can't help thinking that supervillains have been slightly lagging real humans when it comes to monstrous behavior. In just the last seven days, here in St. Paul, an eight year-old boy sexually assaulted an eight year-old girl on a local playground, and a man killed 10 pit bull puppies by snapping their necks and throwing them in a dumpster. The puppy-killing incident took place in front of several bystanders, while the sexual assault took place on one of those spiral slides with a cover near the top. Sadly, this wasn't even the first local rape involving grade-school assailants... there were two gang-bangs a few years ago, in the same summer. It raises a question of what kind of monsters we are raising these days.