Cartoons: Are they okay, do they rule, or do they suck?

[CDB]

I actually dread this new LSH series now...

You had to bring up the LSH series...:( :evilangry

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Thanks, that was me. :D

I dunno, it was dumb, but no worse than Mystery of the Batwoman or even some of the worse episodes of the animated universe. "Critters", anyone? "War World"?

And hey, if we had to, we could even say that Lex's wackiness was an early symptom of his eventual kryptonite poisoning.


SEAN
"Break out the TIki Torches" is 100 times worse than Critters.

[CDB]

"Break out the TIki Torches" is 100 times worse than Critters.


Huh? What epsiodes are you two talking about?

[Sean Whitmore]

Huh? What epsiodes are you two talking about?


The "tiki torches" line is from the Superman/Brainiac movie. "Critters" was an episode of Batman where he fought gigantic mutated grasshoppers created by an evil Amish geneticist and his hot super strong daughter.


SEAN

[LtMarvel]

I believe that "Critters" refers to the Batman episode with the evil Farmer and his giant farm animals.

This works only if you take it out of animated series and into the first two Superman movies. That Luthor might have talked this way.

Elsewheres, imaginary stories...I've seen worse

[CDB]

The "tiki torches" line is from the Superman/Brainiac movie. "Critters" was an episode of Batman where he fought gigantic mutated grasshoppers created by an evil Amish geneticist and his hot super strong daughter.


SEAN

I gotcha ya. And

Critters epsiode >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this movie

[Legato]

I actually dread this new LSH series now...

If it's not written by or have no influence from The Batman people whatsoever then LSH may actually be tolerable to watch on a Guilty Pleasure level. Like Teen Titans, say what you will about that show but atleast that show can be watchable sometimes if you just stop being a fanboy for 30 min.

[Black Atom]

I don't think Critters was even the worst Superman episode. The Unity episode where Ma and Pa Kent had tentacles that came out of their mouths was worse IMO. Or the Dr. Fate episode with the lamest villain ever. Maybe we should make a thread just about bad DCAU episodes.

[90'sCartoonMan]

The Phantom Zone is supposed to be a prison of no touch, taste, smell, or sight. Not some expressionist prison where they try to give you your greatest desires.

Hm...I think I might book my next vacation to this Phantom Zone. It sounds like a nice place to visit.

What's with the "Critters" hate? That episode had great lines in it!

This movie would actually fit in well with Krypto continuity, which is light STAS continuity anyway. But then again, the The Batman influences are rampant.

[Totoro Man]

Thanks, that was me. :D

I dunno, it was dumb, but no worse than Mystery of the Batwoman or even some of the worse episodes of the animated universe. "Critters", anyone? "War World"?

And hey, if we had to, we could even say that Lex's wackiness was an early symptom of his eventual kryptonite poisoning.


SEAN


is "War World" that Justice League two-parter? sure it had some massive plot-holes and was melodramatic... but at least the acting was pretty good. sure Martian Manhunter jobbed out to Superman and was virtually useless... but at least SOME of the characters were written modestly well. "War World" was problematic, but it wasn't an unmitigated disaster. it had "heart" if nothing else. I didn't even feel as though "Brainiac Attacks" had THAT much going for it. with this film I just got bored and gave up.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't think Critters was even the worst Superman episode. The Unity episode where Ma and Pa Kent had tentacles that came out of their mouths was worse IMO. Or the Dr. Fate episode with the lamest villain ever. Maybe we should make a thread just about bad DCAU episodes.


Well, it wouldn't be a long list, but there were definitely a few clunkers. The Killer Croc/Baby Doll teamup springing immediately to mind...


SEAN

[Black Atom]

Well, it wouldn't be a long list, but there were definitely a few clunkers. The Killer Croc/Baby Doll teamup springing immediately to mind...


SEAN

Wow, I'd forgotten about that one. The one about the pirate guy who lived in the Gotham City sewers with alligators and had an army of kids was especially awful, I remember. It wasn't even drawn in the Timm style

[Sean Whitmore]

Wow, I'd forgotten about that one. The one about the pirate guy who lived in the Gotham City sewers with alligators and had an army of kids was especially awful, I remember. It wasn't even drawn in the Timm style


Ah yes, "The Underdwellers". Or, "What if Batman fought crime in Victorian England?"

Although it was kinda cool seeing how pissed Batman got at this guy who was abusing children.


SEAN

[GRANT!]

Check out my blog sometime, based entirely on comic toons that suck.

comictoonsthatsuck.blogspot.com

I read something like this and suddenly my life doesn't seem so pathetic.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Thanks, that was me. :D

I dunno, it was dumb, but no worse than Mystery of the Batwoman or even some of the worse episodes of the animated universe. "Critters", anyone? "War World"?

And hey, if we had to, we could even say that Lex's wackiness was an early symptom of his eventual kryptonite poisoning.


SEAN


The producer, ya know, admitted its not part of Bruce TImm's universe... ya know that right?



Also, as bad as "Mystery of the Batwoman" was.....

it at least had that one scene where Batman broke into the crime lord's house, the crime lord sent a bodyguard into the room to check what that noise was, the bodyguard stared right at Batman, Batman glared back, and the bodyguard shouted that no one was there.


"Brainiac Attacks" has no such badass scene that could possibly save it.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

If that's true, it would be the laziest, most despicable thing I can think of. Taking another series' look, its voice actors, and its CHARACTERS (what the hell was Mercy doing there, then?) and claiming its something completely different?

Truthfully though, this just sounds like lip service. Somebody uptop demanded that the 'toon be more like the upcoming movie. The creators involved, realizing how stupid that would be, forged ahead anyway and are now telling people, "If it bothers you that much, it doesn't 'count'." Which, frankly, is fine by me.


SEAN
Umm, we're talking about capizzi?

Ya know, one of the people responsible for why the "Horribly Inadequete cartoon that vaguely resembles Batman" sucks so damn much?

[Sean Whitmore]

Umm, we're talking about capizzi?

Ya know, one of the people responsible for why the "Batman" sucks so damn much?


It's a perfectly okay Saturday morning cartoon.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

There is absolutely no reason not to take him at his word.


Fair enough. Seems weird as hell to me, but I've got no reason to doubt the man.


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

It's a perfectly okay Saturday morning cartoon.


SEAN


http://comictoonsthatsuck.blogspot.com/2006/04/crapman-episode-rpm-sucks.html
http://comictoonsthatsuck.blogspot.com/2006/04/crapman-episode-cash-for-toys-sucks.html

Read.

Tell me again how that is perfectly okay.

[Sean Whitmore]

Tell me again how that is perfectly okay.


I can actually tell you without reading a slightly disturbing site dedicated to bad cartoons. I've seen it. Is it as good as the Fox show? Christ no. Is it a little stupid every now and then? Absolutely. It's still a perfectly decent 22 minutes of Batman ninja-kicking people, so...what exactly is the harm?


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I can actually tell you without reading a slightly disturbing site dedicated to bad cartoons. I've seen it. Is it as good as the Fox show? Christ no. Is it a little stupid every now and then? Absolutely. It's still a perfectly decent 22 minutes of Batman ninja-kicking people, so...what exactly is the harm?


SEAN
Not good enough. Read the site, look at the arguements, try to explain away the plotholes. Do not dismiss my points.
EDIT; and its "Batman in name only"

EDIT: afterall, I pay you enough respect to respond to your responses clearly. The least you can do is actually read the reviews of the episodes in question, and try to explain how we can excuse such lazy writing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not good enough. Read the site, look at the arguements, try to explain away the plotholes. Do not dismiss my points.
EDIT; and its "Batman in name only"


Having read them, I'm still honestly not sure what you'd like me to do. Congratulate you for pinpointing the plot holes in a children's cartoon show? Can't we just admit that they exist and move on?

You should watch some Super Friends, you'd have enough material for a book.


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Having read them, I'm still honestly not sure what you'd like me to do. Congratulate you for pinpointing the plot holes in a children's cartoon show? Can't we just admit that they exist and move on?

You should watch some Super Friends, you'd have enough material for a book.


SEAN
The point is that the reason we get things like "Brainiac Attacks" is because people like Capilla still get work, and they do by people tolerating shows like 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely resembles Batman'.

It's a slippery slope, and I don't like the bottom of the pit.

[Sean Whitmore]

The point is that the reason we get things like "Brainiac Attacks" is because people like Capilla still get work, and they do by people tolerating shows like 'The Batman'.


Yeah, but if The Batman (or hell, even Brainiac Attacks) has an audience (which I'm assuming they do, I have no earthly idea), then don't they get to enjoy the work of people like Capilla? Maybe they hated the Fox toon and this is their time to shine, who knows.

I just don't see the point in hoping to deny some people what they like, be it The Batman or even All-Star Batman and Robin, just because that particular version isn't your cup of tea.

(Though I do think we should all continue to bash Batman and Robin, because truly THAT was Batman in name only :) )


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Yeah, but if The Batman (or hell, even Brainiac Attacks) has an audience (which I'm assuming they do, I have no earthly idea), then don't they get to enjoy the work of people like Capilla? Maybe they hated the Fox toon and this is their time to shine, who knows.

I just don't see the point in hoping to deny some people what they like, be it The Batman or even All-Star Batman and Robin, just because that particular version isn't your cup of tea.

(Though I do think we should all continue to bash Batman and Robin, because truly THAT was Batman in name only :) )


SEAN
This isn't about flavor. It's about a program written with easily spottable writing errors making it onto the television, and winning awards doing it.

Whatever happened to trying out best? Making good products? Is actual workmanship and quality so feared that we have to justify the continuance of an inferior product?

[Sean Whitmore]

This isn't about flavor. It's about a program written with easily spottable writing errors making it onto the television, and winning awards doing it.


It's on at 8 in the morning on Saturday. It's target audience is 10 year olds. Nobody has ever claimed it was anything more than a goofy toon, or even breathed about it in the same sentence as the Fox toon. I swear, I don't see what you're expecting from it. Where is this perfect, genius Satruday morning cartoon you're comparing it too?

(And yes, Ninja Turtles is much better than The Batman, but even it isn't perfect)


SEAN

[CDB]

Also, as bad as "Mystery of the Batwoman" was.....

it at least had that one scene where Batman broke into the crime lord's house, the crime lord sent a bodyguard into the room to check what that noise was, the bodyguard stared right at Batman, Batman glared back, and the bodyguard shouted that no one was there.



....:eek:

The goddamn Batman!!!:eek:

[ChaosBurnFlame]

It's on at 8 in the morning on Saturday. It's target audience is 10 year olds. Nobody has ever claimed it was anything more than a goofy toon, or even breathed about it in the same sentence as the Fox toon. I swear, I don't see what you're expecting from it. Where is this perfect, genius Satruday morning cartoon you're comparing it too?

(And yes, Ninja Turtles is much better than The Batman, but even it isn't perfect)


SEAN


Sam Register actually did that. He called the fans of the oldtoon "25 year old men that live in their mothers basements" in fact.

EDIT: and I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for an ATTEMPT at 'good'.

'The Horribly Inadequete cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman' is more tied up in being 'Different from B:TAS' that it rarely, if ever could even be approaching 'good'. It tries so hard to be 'different', that it doesn't pay homage to the original concepts of Batman anymore.

[Sean Whitmore]

Sam Register actually did that. He called the fans of the oldtoon "25 year old men that live in their mothers basements" in fact.



Well that is, of course, not nice. I can't fault the guy for wanting to defend himself or his work, but that's about the most cliched and inaccurate way he could have done it.


It tries so hard to be 'different', that it doesn't pay homage to the original concepts of Batman anymore.


Well, there we just plain disagree. Bruce Wayne's parents were killed, he puts on a costume and fights crime. Alfred is sarcastic and loyal. Comissioner Gordon is his ally (eventually). Catwoman is fraught with sexual tension. What original concepts are they missing? And please don't tell me something like, "He doesn't act like Batman because he makes jokes" or "It's not the Joker because he knows karate" or something as trivial as that.

(Funny, I'dve thought a mod would split this into its own thread by now :) )

SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Well that is, of course, not nice. I can't fault the guy for wanting to defend himself or his work, but that's about the most cliched and inaccurate way he could have done it.





Well, there we just plain disagree. Bruce Wayne's parents were killed, he puts on a costume and fights crime. Alfred is sarcastic and loyal. Comissioner Gordon is his ally (eventually). Catwoman is fraught with sexual tension. What original concepts are they missing? And please don't tell me something like, "He doesn't act like Batman because he makes jokes" or "It's not the Joker because he knows karate" or something as trivial as that.

(Funny, I'dve thought a mod would split this into its own thread by now :) )

SEAN


It's Poochie... wearing a cowl.

That's basically it.

EDIT: and Register's '25 year old' crack was made prior to the show's release. A pre-emptive attack on critics he knew he was going to get.

[Young Avenger]

Sam Register actually did that. He called the fans of the oldtoon "25 year old men that live in their mothers basements" in fact.

Does mr. Register happen to run 4Kids Entertainment as well?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Does mr. Register happen to run 4Kids Entertainment as well?
Nope, but he helmed "Teen Titans" and "Hi Hi Puffy Ami Yumi" when he was VP at Cartoon Network.

[Sean Whitmore]

It's Poochie... wearing a cowl.


No, he's just a Batman you dislike.


EDIT: and Register's '25 year old' crack was made prior to the show's release. A pre-emptive attack on critics he knew he was going to get.


Yeah, like noooobody was trashing the show long before it actually aired. ;)


SEAN

[CDB]

It's Poochie... wearing a cowl.

That's basically it.



That's a new one :D

[The Humanist Hero]

Sam Register actually did that. He called the fans of the oldtoon "25 year old men that live in their mothers basements" in fact.

All I know is that writing cartoons that appealed to the "25 year old men that live in their mothers basements" led to Batman:TAS, Superman:TAS, Justice League and the rest of the DCAU. And, these same cartoons also appeal to kids.

On the other hand, writing cartoons strictly for the kiddies leads to "The" Batman and Brainiac Attacks, and several other examples of the continually declining quality of WB animation.

I will take the former any day. It is superior in every way-- writing, acting, animation style, tone-- to the crap that Sam Register thinks they should be producing.

[Young Avenger]

Nope, but he helmed "Teen Titans" and "Hi Hi Puffy Ami Yumi" when he was VP at Cartoon Network.

He's response for those shows? No wonder CN new shows have been awful. I'm a bit disappoint that Sam Register isn't running 4kids Entertainment. I recall a representive of the company that exact same statement towards anime fans.

[Greg Hatcher]

(Funny, I'dve thought a mod would split this into its own thread by now :) )

SEAN

Nah, the conversation goes where it wants to, I don't care too much about about that. I'm more concerned about people minding their manners and being nice to each other no matter how vehemently they disagree.

So far so good, though I am always kind of 'on alert' when these angry cartoon discussions get going. Someday I'm going to write a learned sociology paper on why people get so LIVID about a cartoon they don't like. Me, I'm just glad we got to see it for free because we were toying with the idea of buying it. Now, well, not so much.

Still, I'm old enough to remember Marvin and Wendy and the original Super Friends. Hell, I'm old enough to remember the original Filmation DC toons. You guys really are spoiled ROTTEN if this is the worst cartoon you ever sit through.

[rick]

It's on at 8 in the morning on Saturday. It's target audience is 10 year olds. Nobody has ever claimed it was anything more than a goofy toon, or even breathed about it in the same sentence as the Fox toon. I swear, I don't see what you're expecting from it. Where is this perfect, genius Satruday morning cartoon you're comparing it too?

(And yes, Ninja Turtles is much better than The Batman, but even it isn't perfect)


SEAN



I think that the problem CFB is having with that show is more or less the same one I’ve had with it. Which is that neither of us see any reason why a Saturday morning cartoon show aimed primarily at 10 year olds by its very nature has to suck.

My main era for watching Saturday morning cartoons was the mid to late 1960’s, which while not quite the golden age, still was an era filled with great cartoon shows that were fun and exciting but still didn’t talk down to their audiences.

I mean not only did we have the original “serious” versions of Space Ghost, Johnny Quest and even Birdman, but this was also the era of both the Jay Ward goodness of George of the Jungle and Rocky & Bullwinkle and classics like Bugs Bunny and the Pink Panther as Saturday morning regulars.

And all of that doesn’t even include things like the Superman / Aquaman Hour or either of the two big Marvel cartoons of the era, Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four.

Now of course the 70’s came around and animated cartoons did take a major dive in quality taking us into the Goober & the Ghost Chasers / Yogi’s Ark Lark era. And granted that mostly over the next 20 years, with a very few exceptions Saturday morning cartoons just kept on sucking along, and there was really not much more that we could do about it.

But then came the rise of cable television and suddenly we started to see things change.

Suddenly there were shows like Rugrats, Ren & Stimpy and all the other little wonders that popped up on Nick or the Cartoon Network. Shows that were aimed at kids that managed to be well drawn and funny while still being kid friendly.

For the first time in decades, American television animation was showing imagination and style.

And then to top it all of, at least for us long time comic geeks, along came Paul Dini and Bruce Timm who managed too completely reinvent the entire adventure cartoon genre. And for almost the next 15 years, they managed year after year and series after series to continually produce cartoons that were aimed at both an adult and child audience that managed to be fun, exciting and most of all smart, without talking down to the audience.

So while it certainly would be easy to say that it’s just “Saturday Toons” and that we shouldn’t expect too much from them, seeing a show take such a huge step back in quality after what was literally year after year of excellence is both sad and sort of upsetting.

Which is why, I’ve taken such a long winded route to get around to saying that the Batman is a horrible cartoon show that deserves every bad thing said about it, and the sooner the tapes of every episode are put onto a big burning pyre with Sam Register tossed on top for good measure, the better.

Or am I just taking all of this waaay to seriously? :eek:

[Sean Whitmore]

Which is that neither of us see any reason why a Saturday morning cartoon show aimed primarily at 10 year olds by its very nature has to suck.


I'm not saying it does. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be judged by the same standards of a once-in-a-blue-moon fantastic show like Fox's Batman that changed the industry.

You compare The Batman to Loonatics, most current anime, or hell, I'll go back further, Thundercats even, it looks fantastic,


Or am I just taking all of this waaay to seriously? :eek:


Nah, none of us are. This is important stuff. ;)


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

It's the domino effect that I'm pissed at.

Network executives don't look for GENRE success... they look for FORMULA success, then copy said formula to a T and repeat it over and over and over again(didnt you notice NBC making the same 'Suddenly Susan' clones over and over again for half a decade?).

[Sean Whitmore]

It's the domino effect that I'm pissed at.

Network executives don't look for GENRE success... they look for FORMULA success, then copy said formula to a T and repeat it over and over and over again(didnt you notice NBC making the same 'Suddenly Susan' clones over and over again for half a decade?).


Yeah, but that's happened since the beginning of television and it'll continue until the end. It's sad, but at some point, you've gotta accept it or switch to radio. :)


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I'm not saying it does. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be judged by the same standards of a once-in-a-blue-moon fantastic show like Fox's Batman that changed the industry.

You compare The Batman to Loonatics, most current anime, or hell, I'll go back further, Thundercats even, it looks fantastic,


SEAN

Not really.

Thundercats was an original creation with no past characterization for it to rape. as a stand-alone, Thundercats was VASTLY superior to 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman'.

Even 'Dungeons and Dragons', which was worked on by Paul Dini and this board's very own Buzz Dixon can kick 'The Batman's ass in pretty much any area.

B: TAS spawned many great stories and ideas, such as Disney's Gargoyles(Plug: Get the Gargoyles comic!). it created such critically acclaimed masterpiecees as "Mask of the Phantasm", which Roger Ebert stated was some of the best Batman ever.

We shouldn't have to settle. Over on Nick, which children's and teen programming is nearly dominated by Butch Hartman's sup-par series and Rugrats, there is a brilliant show which shows how anime should be and hasn't been in 10 years called 'Avatar: the Last Airbender'. This show is currently being the network's red stepchild in being shuffled in air-dates, much as how JLU and B:TAS and S:TAS was in their last seasons.

Paul Dini even stated Cartoon netowkr was airing the last JLU eps 'quietly without fanfare'. It's bad abuse of the truely great programs, leaving us with the pre-packaged teenie-boppie 'what network execs think is cool' Poochie crap dominating the airwaves.

In its peak, 'Teen Titans' aired 16 times a week on Cartoon Network while the (then) Justice League aired a pitiful two.

[Sean Whitmore]

Thundercats was an original creation with no past characterization for it to rape. as a stand-alone, Thundercats was VASTLY superior to 'The Batman'.


I'm not thrilled with the idea of likening rape to a cartoon show in the first place, but even if I did, that's about the biggest exaggeration you could make. Your biggest problem to date had been sloppy writing...when did "characterization rape" come into play? Who's out of character? Maybe Clayface...and who cares??


We shouldn't have to settle.


You don't have to. You GOT your cartoon already. This one is for the people who like this one.


In its peak, 'Teen Titans' aired 16 times a week on Cartoon Network while the (then) Justice League aired a pitiful two.


No argument there, that was utter b.s.


SEAN

[LtMarvel]

Ok, in its peak, the Justice League aired at least 7 times a week (M-Th nights, Saturday night which was rerun Sunday night and Saturday morning).

And I hate to keep point this out: Teen Titans was a very good show.

[Sean Whitmore]

And I hate to keep point this out: Teen Titans was a very good show.


Teen Titans was a very cute show that was occasionally good. Let's not remember it through rose-colored glasses. :)


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Ok, in its peak, the Justice League aired at least 7 times a week (M-Th nights, Saturday night which was rerun Sunday night and Saturday morning).

And I hate to keep point this out: Teen Titans was a very good show.

Yes yes yes, and it snows in San Francisco because of global warming and a torn down apartment complex is a mental health facility

Your 'beliefs' are one thing, but Teen Titans honestly had some very stupid writing.

[Greg Hatcher]

Okay, I was nice about it before. Now I'm done being nice.

Here's how it works on the TV board. You will speak to one another with respect or you will get an enforced vacation from CBR. The way EVERY SINGLE CARTOON THREAD ON THIS BOARD invariably erupts in nastiness has gotten on my last nerve. If this group of alleged adults cannot discuss goddamn CARTOONS without getting bitchy then I will forbid the topic on the board. Because enough is enough. Every last one of you is old enough to know better and several of you have been warned about your manners before.

This is the official warning. I hear about any more snotty replies in this thread and it's getting shut down and the offenders are getting a two-week ban. I could not care less how valid your point may be, you will present it politely or you will be gone.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Okay, I was nice about it before. Now I'm done being nice.

Here's how it works on the TV board. You will speak to one another with respect or you will get an enforced vacation from CBR. The way EVERY SINGLE CARTOON THREAD ON THIS BOARD invariably erupts in nastiness has gotten on my last nerve. If this group of alleged adults cannot discuss goddamn CARTOONS without getting bitchy then I will forbid the topic on the board. Because enough is enough. Every last one of you is old enough to know better and several of you have been warned about your manners before.

This is the official warning. I hear about any more snotty replies in this thread and it's getting shut down and the offenders are getting a two-week ban. I could not care less how valid your point may be, you will present it politely or you will be gone.


Then I'd like to be the first to apologize for the snarkiness of my tone.

I just find that the lengths that those who defend 'Teen Titans' go through to try and prove it to be some sort of intellectual equal of any other of the fine programming available is staggering. Only a few have ever said "its fluff, but cute fluff so I like it anyways". I leave THOSE people alone.

I ponder how a show got such a loyal following, honestly.

When talking about flaws in the writing of any other show, like say, 'Danny Phantom'(notably the huge errors in the 'Ultimate Enemy' movie), the fans of that show are at least able to admit "Yes, the writing of that ep sucks, but I liked it anyways" and we're able to move on.

[OverMaster]

Well, it wouldn't be a long list, but there were definitely a few clunkers. The Killer Croc/Baby Doll teamup springing immediately to mind...


SEAN

Hey, I liked 'Love is a Croc'. It definitely had 'heart', much more feeling than any 'The Batman' episode has ever had.

And the 'What do you think they do in a date?', 'I don't even want to think about it' exchange is golden.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Hey, I liked 'Love is a Croc'. It definitely had 'heart', much more feeling than any 'The Batman' episode has ever had.

And the 'What do you think they do in a date?', 'I don't even want to think about it' exchange is golden.
I agree. Baby Doll is one of the greatest original creations by the Timm/Dini team ever, and the abuse she got from that tourist in the beginning of "Love is a Croc" really hits home how damaged she is.

It also really hits home how B: TAS was able to be so successful, what with having sympathetic villians, something I've yet to see duplicated with any amount of success in 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman'.

In B: TAS, Batman fights people with emotional damage who are doing evil things...

in 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman', he might as well be fighting Universal style movie monsters.

[OverMaster]

The shame about 'The Batman' is, they often have truly great concepts that fizzle out due to bad execution.

The Joker's madness driving him to try to act like Batman, the man he is so obsessed with, has to be one of the best Joker ideas ever. But they used it with a story, that, while one of "The Batman"'s best, certainly is not enough to me.

And a trip to the Joker's mind? You could have made so much out of it, like a darker version of "Perchance to Dream", where we dwelled on Bruce's mind. Again, "The Batman"'s version had some nice ideas there, but it ultimately did not honor its potential.

A younger Poison Ivy who was a friend of Barbara Gordon? Interesting, but again, misused. A tremor causing new villain? Neat idea, but the guy lacks any depth (pair for the course for TB villains). Clayface posing as Solomon Grundy? Could have worked a lot better. The list goes on and on.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

The shame about 'The Batman' is, they often have truly great concepts that fizzle out due to bad execution.

The Joker's madness driving him to try to act like Batman, the man he is so obsessed with, has to be one of the best Joker ideas ever. But they used it with a story, that, while one of "The Batman"'s best, certainly is not enough to me.

And a trip to the Joker's mind? You could have made so much out of it, like a darker version of "Perchance to Dream", where we dwelled on Bruce's mind. Again, "The Batman"'s version had some nice ideas there, but it ultimately did not honor its potential.

A younger Poison Ivy who was a friend of Barbara Gordon? Interesting, but again, misused. A tremor causing new villain? Neat idea, but the guy lacks any depth (pair for the course for TB villains). Clayface posing as Solomon Grundy? Could have worked a lot better. The list goes on and on.
Clayface's decision to be evil was pretty hacknied as well. "Being good was too hard".

They basically turned who was a reoccuring first season character into a 2 dimensional movie monster.

And lets not even get started with what they did with Penguin.

Read my review for "The Apprentice" episode of 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman'. Basically, that last season of the show wasted two episodes on one-shot original villians(Krank and Gearhead) that basically SUCKED!(Krank was an overly simplified Toyman ripoff with blue anime hair, and the Gearhead episode is the stupidest half hour of television I ever endured), when, if they really wanted to do a good job, they would have subtly playing with Barbara's prankster classmate character in the background to build up to this season finale... but hey, that requires writing talent.

Too much to ask for from The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman

[Sean Whitmore]

Clayface's decision to be evil was pretty hacknied as well. "Being good was too hard".


After first being driven insane by the Joker. What, the show gets zero props for doing something that drastic to one of its main characters?


And lets not even get started with what they did with Penguin.


What'd they do to the Penguin? Make him a threat instead of going the "legitimate" businessman route? He's still worlds better than the Silver Age version.


Read my review for "The Apprentice" episode of 'The Batman'...when, if they really wanted to do a good job, they would have subtly playing with Barbara's prankster classmate character in the background to build up to this season finale...



Something the Fox Batman toon NEVER did, by the way.


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

After first being driven insane by the Joker. What, the show gets zero props for doing something that drastic to one of its main characters?


"Tragedy" was a horrible viewing experience with an episode that didn't know which way it wanted to go.

And should we give props for doing something daring... in a bad way? Give props for Identity Crisis... even though the writing was drivel? Give props to "Graduation Day" even though the whole book reeked?

Sorry, no points awarded for 'daring'.


What'd they do to the Penguin? Make him a threat instead of going the "legitimate" businessman route? He's still worlds better than the Silver Age version.


wuxai and the penguin do not mix.



Something the Fox Batman toon NEVER did, by the way.


SEAN

So I was imagining Barbara Gordan being subtly used as a background character in "heart of steel" and other various episodes before "Shadow of the Bat"?

I was imagining The Man-bat subplot being used in other episodes, such as "Tyger Tyger", "Moon of the Wolf" etc?

I was imagining Daggott's subplot?

Rupert Thorne's subplot?

I was imagining all that?

EDIT: hell, was I imagining Ra's Ahul Ghoul being built up as well?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I think thats the problem most people have is that some of them have it in their mind that any DC cartoon that isn't based on the Timmverse is bound to suck. That is why I feel thare is gonna be some biased attacks at Legion of Superheros when it airs.

I disagree. I mean, I believe that "Krypto the Superdog" isn't a bad program. It's a show for kids that's fun and I can absolutely not hate it.

Any superhero show has a good chance of good or bad quality depending on who's in charge, and the person in charge doesn't always have to be Bruce Timm or a member of his entorage. It just has to be written somewhat competantly and have some halfway decent animation.

Take Marvel's cartoons for example:

Fox's X-Men series did not age well at all. It was, for the most part, a transcription of X-men comics from the 90's, and the artstyle was not animation friendly at all.

Inversely, X-Men Evolution was BLASTED by the critics at the start at being too 'teen oriented' and Spyke became the most hated character in American animation overnight. I must admit I too was one of the initial naysayers. That show, however, evolved, and was excellently animated with great character designs, and the writing and subplots grew, and the show overall really shined on through as one of the best ventures into animation Marvel has ever made... and Bruce Timm wasn't involved.

The reason Bruce Timm grows such high acclaim is, well... he started at the bottom. He was a storyboard artist for Tiny Toons and started a proposal for B: TAS on the side while working on Tiny Toons. Surprises of Surprises, it launched.

Much as it was said about the SPider-man films, "Who do you want to do Spider-man? Sam Raimi, who paid his dues and did Evil Dead, or some huge name like Spielburg?"

So who would you rather do your superhero toons? A guy like Bruce Timm who started on the bottom?

Or a guy like Sam Register, the former Vice President of a television network who relies more on market research type thinking.

[Sean Whitmore]

And should we give props for doing something daring... in a bad way?


Not if you think it's bad, no. I thought it was the best thing the show had done up til that point, so, there ya go.


wuxai and the penguin do not mix.


Sez you. I think it's a neat combine.


So I was imagining Barbara Gordan being subtly used as a background character in "heart of steel" and other various episodes before "Shadow of the Bat"?


Fine, Barbara was (barely) used in one episode before she became Batgirl. She wasn't "built up over a season".


I was imagining The Man-bat subplot being used in other episodes, such as "Tyger Tyger", "Moon of the Wolf" etc?


Got nothing to do with what you're talking about. Man-Bat wasn't "built up". He was used and then other people kept using the serum.


I was imagining Daggott's subplot?
Rupert Thorne's subplot?


Yes, you were. Daggott and Thorne were recurring characters, just like any The Batman villain.


I was imagining all that?


Most of it, yeah. And what you didn't imagine, you exaggerated.


EDIT: hell, was I imagining Ra's Ahul Ghoul being built up as well?


Again, yes. He showed up for 5 seconds at the end of one episode. He was not "slowly built up over a season to be used in the finale" or whatever incomprehensible thing you bashed that one episode of The Batman for.


And by the way, if subplots and recurring arcs get you off SO much, what about The Batman's Bennett/Clayface thing? Hugo Strange? Even Poison Ivy, in a way.


SEAN

[Legato]

Im not bashing the show but the one problem I had with ATT is that it sometimes have problems finding it's own identity. At one point it tried to be an anime type of program due to it's facial feature, which is fine but they sometimes animeize it at the wrong moments.

They also have a problem with some plot development, they would tease the possibility of a Robin/Starfire relationship but they never executed the plot, when the series was at it's closing moments they could have had time to close the book on the Robin/Starfire thing but it seemed like they completly ignored that. They didn't even fill us in as to if Robin is either Dick Grayson or Tim Drake

Now in the earlier episodes I was one of those naysayers who thought the show sucked but then later on I accidently catch on to some of it's later episodes and was impressed on how much the show has improved, even the fights was well done and didn't look too goofy.

[Sean Whitmore]

They also have a problem with some plot development, they would tease the possibility of a Robin/Starfire relationship but they never executed the plot, when the series was at it's closing moments they could have had time to close the book on the Robin/Starfire thing but it seemed like they completly ignored that.


To be fair, it felt to me like they were told midway through the last season that this was their last season. There were a few plot points they never got back to, though I'm sure they wanted to.


They didn't even fill us in as to if Robin is either Dick Grayson or Tim Drake


That was my biggest annoynace with the show, that they were heroes 24/7 and never did anything without their codenames or costumes. It wasn't an oversight though, that was just the creator's weird choice. Although as time went on, they did manage to sneak most of the Titans' real names in there.

The Bat-Mite -like imp was named nosyarG kciD
Beast Boy was called Garfield at one point
When Cyborg went undercover in the H.I.V.E., his bad guy name was Stone


SEAN

[kalorama]

They didn't even fill us in as to if Robin is either Dick Grayson or Tim Drake

They most likely thought (and reasonably so) that anyone who cared would recognize the lineup as the classic Wolfman/Perez version and simply assume it was Grayson. Or they figured (reasonably so) that it really didn't matter within the context of the actual stories they were telling.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

They most likely thought (and reasonably so) that anyone who cared would recognize the lineup as the classic Wolfman/Perez version and simply assume it was Grayson. Or they figured (reasonably so) that it really didn't matter within the context of the actual stories they were telling.


The writers of the series found that a lot didn't matter within the context of the stories they wrote. The writing ranged from 'sloppy' to 'And they edited this when?'.

The animation ranged from 'passable' to 'a flyby sequence used the same two background stills repeating every second'.

As said by the previous posters, it was a show that didn't know its own identity.

A 'quirk' of mine is I can't watch a show without a character to root for. In the case of TT,the majority of the cast either:
A ) Are too stupid to care about
B ) Are incredibly meanspirited and never get a comeuppance.

In fact, the majority of the episodes clearly don't have any morality within them. The first season's finale had 'ripped scene out of movies'("empire strikes back" and "Spider-man") style fanfiction writing.

Inversely, to address to Sean, a long flowing storyarc style writing is a double edged sword.

THe fox Spider-man series used it to an extent that most episodes had titles "Neogentic nightmare: Chapter XIV". As the series grew longer, the "Previously on" recap sequence ran to nearly 5 minutes, WITH an additional 5 more flashback sequences in episode.

Gargoyles, inversely, set up some of the best longrunning arc based writing I've ever seen.

[Sean Whitmore]

THe fox Spider-man series used it to an extent that most episodes had titles "Neogentic nightmare: Chapter XIV". As the series grew longer, the "Previously on" recap sequence ran to nearly 5 minutes, WITH an additional 5 more flashback sequences in episode.

Gargoyles, inversely, set up some of the best longrunning arc based writing I've ever seen.


No argument on either of these points. Spider-Man sucked ass, and Gargoyles was brilliant.


SEAN

[CDB]

No argument on either of these points. Spider-Man sucked ass, and Gargoyles was brilliant.


SEAN

I disagree partially on the Spiderman comment. It started off and maintained some qualtiy but declined during the later seasons.

And I'm 100% behind the comment on brilliance that is Gargoyles. Best animated series behind and maybe on par with Timm's animated DC universe.

[Sean Whitmore]

I disagree partially on the Spiderman comment. It started off and maintained some qualtiy but declined during the later seasons.


Okay, fair enough. The first season was okay, with a few standout eps. The Lizard and Doc Ock eps in particular were my favorite. This was before the 40-part storylines, the pussification of Spidey, and the horrible recycling of old animation. (I swear, that same wall from "Night of the Lizard" fell down 100 times over the course of that series)


SEAN

[CDB]

. This was before the 40-part storylines, the pussification of Spidey, and the horrible recycling of old animation. (I swear, that same wall from "Night of the Lizard" fell down 100 times over the course of that series)


SEAN

Agreed...:( That is what had plaqued it the most.

[Black Atom]

I do agree with CBF in general, though, that you don't have to cut corners to produce animation aimed at kids. The fact that shows like The Batman and Teen Titans Go and Loonatixxx!! (or whatever) are trying so hard to market gimmicks like anime-style artwork and action sequences says something about their substance (or lack thereof). Unfortunately, this effects feature film animation also, only the gimmick there is CG.

[Totoro Man]

After getting Justice LEague volume 2 and Superman volume 3 I got two passes so my brother and I can go see the film some time. And if we don't use them for ourselves our sister and niece might be able to use them. Either way a movie pass doesn'tmake Braniac Attacks worth the trouble for me.

As for the Teen Titans Robin question, unless Tim Drake becomes Nightwing the only possibility is DIck Grayson, albeit we could pretend it's Dark Knight Strikes Again Robin if we want. :)

[ChaosBurnFlame]

To the Teen Titans robin quesiton: Here's the things we know: He's insane, he has little to no regard for himself or others, he is quick to go on ego trips, he never thinks of consequences, and he has a very easy to bruise ego.

He is morally reprehensible, showed the least growth in the series and is characteristically repugnant. The writers of the show should be punished for passing along such a character.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

a relating note to the Spider-man series...

They could have easily ended the show on a solid note... but they wasted the last episode to praise Stan Lee(it really wasn't needed).

[Super Macho Man]

That is true, Chaos. While I do not know what you mean by a tribute to Stan Lee, they could have ended it with the conclusion of the Secret Wars, but the last episode left quite a few questions to be answered.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Spider-man visits our world, thanks Stan lee for creating him, then leaves.

Basically the biggest waste of animation cels ever.

[CDB]

Spider-man visits our world, thanks Stan lee for creating him, then leaves.

Basically the biggest waste of animation cels ever.

I view it as a cool and a proper way pay the respects to the man who started all this.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I view it as a cool and a proper way pay the respects to the man who started all this.

Nope.

A cool and proper way to pay respect would have involved Steve Ditko.

[Jared]

Anyone who feels that "The Batman" is an unforgivable offense against the Batman mythos itself would do well to remember that more people have familiarity with the Adam West Batman than with The Dark Night Returns. More people saw the first three movies, which were all big hits, than watched BTAS.
So for plenty of people, the defining imagine of Batman in their minds is corny one-liners, an ulimited utility belt, and "BIFF BANG POW!" fight scenes. For plenty of others, it's a Batman who sleeps upside down and casually kills bad guys. So a lighthearted Batman Ninja Fight cartoon show, aimed at a younger demographic than BTAS was anyway, is hardly that big a deal to me. I saw the show, didn't like it, but I see no reason to be personally, deeply offended by its existence. If BTAS had been canceled in order for it to be produced, that be a different story, but nothing like that happened.

[Sean Whitmore]

Nope.

A cool and proper way to pay respect would have involved Steve Ditko.


I don't think any amount of money would have gotten Ditko to lend his voice to a Spider-Man cartoon.

Plus, all respect to Ditko, but he isn't as instantly recognizable to the young viewers as Stan.


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I don't think any amount of money would have gotten Ditko to lend his voice to a Spider-Man cartoon.

Plus, all respect to Ditko, but he isn't as instantly recognizable to the young viewers as Stan.


SEAN


And the reason he isn't as recognizable is because no one will recognize him. Ditko's magic really made Spidey who he was.

And yeah, Ditko has a hate/hate thing for Marvel(certainly justifiable, IMHO).

But any sort of tribute, no mater how minor, would have certainly helped dispel the myth of "Stan Lee did it all".

I mean, the new TMNT series and S: TAS both had great... GREAT Jack Kirby tributes. And the young viewers probably don't know that much about Jack Kirby(the TMNT tribute episode was beautiful, simply beautiful).

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Anyone who feels that "The Batman" is an unforgivable offense against the Batman mythos itself would do well to remember that more people have familiarity with the Adam West Batman than with The Dark Night Returns. More people saw the first three movies, which were all big hits, than the watched BTAS.
So for plenty of people, the defining imagine of Batman in their minds is corny one-liners, an ulimited utility belt, and "BIFF BANG POW!" fight scenes. For plenty of others, it's a Batman who sleeps upside down and casually kills bad guys. So a lighthearted Batman Ninja Fight cartoon show, aimed at a younger demographic than BTAS was anyway, is hardly that big a deal to me. I saw the show, didn't like it, but I see no reason to be personally, deeply offended by its existence. If BTAS had been canceled in order for it to be produced, that be a different story, but nothing like that happened.


Oh no no no, just several eps of JLU weren't allowed to be produced(like the Nightwing episode, or the original pitch for the Gail Simone ep) because of the Bat Embargo.

That's close enough for me.

[Sean Whitmore]

I mean, the new TMNT series and S: TAS both had great... GREAT Jack Kirby tributes. And the young viewers probably don't know that much about Jack Kirby(the TMNT tribute episode was beautiful, simply beautiful).


I laughed my ass off when I first saw Turpin on S:TAS. It was like Dini handed Timm a poloroid of Kirby and said, "Make him a cop." :)


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I laughed my ass off when I first saw Turpin on S:TAS. It was like Dini handed Timm a poloroid of Kirby and said, "Make him a cop." :)


SEAN

I'm pretty sure Bruce knew what Kirby looked like before he met Dini. Bruce was a MAJOR oldschool comic fan. We're talking about a guy that positively WORSHIPPED Wally Wood.

[Sean Whitmore]

Oh no no no, just several eps of JLU weren't allowed to be produced(like the Nightwing episode, or the original pitch for the Gail Simone ep) because of the Bat Embargo.

That's close enough for me.


Eh, I blame the idiots at DC for that. It's not like Jeff Matsuda said, "Hey, I don't want JLU using Nightwing, a character who's not even in my show."

They did the same stupid thing with Aquaman, because James Cameron had a passing fancy that maybe he would possibly consider eventually doing a movie.

Execs have screwed with cartoons forever. Nothing to do but take it.


SEAN

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Eh, I blame the idiots at DC for that. It's not like Jeff Matsuda said, "Hey, I don't want JLU using Nightwing, a character who's not even in my show."

They did the same stupid thing with Aquaman, because James Cameron had a passing fancy that maybe he would possibly consider eventually doing a movie.

Execs have screwed with cartoons forever. Nothing to do but take it.


SEAN
Speaking of Matsuda.. no disrespect intended to him...

But his style just isn't suitable for Batman.

It really just isn't. And nearly all the extras in 'The Horribly Inadequete Cartoon that Vaguely Resembles Batman' look exactly like characters from "Jackie Chan Adventures".

Most notable was an asian crimelord that looked exactly like a Jackie chan character of the exact same background.

It was like Matsuda didn't even try to vary his work from one series to the other. His work is much too sharp in the angles, and some characters don't even look organic. Don't even get me started on the weird thing he does with hands.

And most of his characters have way too many lines on their face, it's like looking at an animated version of Rob Liefeld's work.

[Conn Seanery]

I know Greg said this stuff didn't need to be seperated out of that Superman: Brainiac Attacks thread, but...well, i'm not Greg. When I click on a Superman thread people should be talking about Superman, dammit! Anal retentive, shmanal retentive.

[CDB]

What the hell???:confused: I never made this thread:(

[Sean Whitmore]

What the hell???:confused: I never made this thread:(


Ha-ha, you get stuck with the blame for this 6 pages of whining about cartoons! :p May history mock you. ;)


SEAN

[Jared]

Cartoons, they are okay, except when they suck.

[90'sCartoonMan]

A 'quirk' of mine is I can't watch a show without a character to root for. In the case of TT,the majority of the cast either:
A ) Are too stupid to care about
B ) Are incredibly meanspirited and never get a comeuppance.

Wait...huh? Yeah, they suffer from idiot syndrome a lot (Beast Boy and Starfire especially), but what do you mean meanspirited?

"Forces of Nature" is a perfect counter example to your argument. And there's probably more. Robin eventually opens up, he supports Raven in season 4, and then there was the episode in season 5 when he opens his briefcase.

I actually liked Fox Spidey and respected it's use of long running subplots. It juggled a lot of supporting characters.

Unfortunately, I can only rely on half nostalgia and half memory for both Spider-Man and X-Men until the day (if it ever comes) I can watch them in DVD season box sets.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Wait...huh? Yeah, they suffer from idiot syndrome a lot (Beast Boy and Starfire especially), but what do you mean meanspirited?

"Forces of Nature" is a perfect counter example to your argument. And there's probably more. Robin eventually opens up, he supports Raven in season 4, and then there was the episode in season 5 when he opens his briefcase.


'perfect counter'? There are MANY MANY episodes in which Robin acts so much like Superdick Jr. that it's unbelievable that this kid isn't in a mental hospital. He's overly aggressive, he has an extremely easy to bruise ego, which leads to him acting stupidly, and he's the most mean spirited child character I've ever seen on a television series that supposedly tries to say he's a 'hero'.

I can go, in detail, in the dozens of instances that counters just 'forces of nature'.

[Patient Boy]

I mean, the new TMNT series and S: TAS both had great... GREAT Jack Kirby tributes. And the young viewers probably don't know that much about Jack Kirby(the TMNT tribute episode was beautiful, simply beautiful).

Oh, absolutely. I loved that episode too.

The "new" TMNT series was pretty good.

[CDB]

Alright can a mod delete and lock this thread. I'm getting tired of seeing my username attached to something I didn't start.

[90'sCartoonMan]

'perfect counter'? There are MANY MANY episodes in which Robin acts so much like Superdick Jr. that it's unbelievable that this kid isn't in a mental hospital. He's overly aggressive, he has an extremely easy to bruise ego, which leads to him acting stupidly, and he's the most mean spirited child character I've ever seen on a television series that supposedly tries to say he's a 'hero'.

I can go, in detail, in the dozens of instances that counters just 'forces of nature'.

You said the majority of the cast, and outside of Robin, I don't see that.

I agree with you on Robin (although I still like him because he's so driven), but to me it did seem like he eased up on the Superdick Jr. attitude by season four.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

You said the majority of the cast, and outside of Robin, I don't see that.

I agree with you on Robin (although I still like him because he's so driven), but to me it did seem like he eased up on the Superdick Jr. attitude by season four.
Most of the cast are guilty in that they allow it to continue.

Andhis behavior isn't just 'extreme' or 'driven', but in several cases 'criminal'.

[Darth Joker]

Most of the cast are guilty in that they allow it to continue.

Andhis behavior isn't just 'extreme' or 'driven', but in several cases 'criminal'.

So is the behavior of most of the main cast members on Ranma 1/2.

The reason I point this out is this...

Teen Titans strikes me as an experiment in combining elements of anime, with elements of traditional North American cartoons.

I think that Teen Titans tried to take the over-the-top outlandish personalities that are fairly common in anime, and incorporate them into already existing superhero characters.

Robin is, in fact, much as you portray him... but he's no worse than Ranma Saotome. In many ways, he's like a mixture of Ranma Saotome with Dick Grayson or Tim Drake.

Also, I think that Teen Titans borrowed heavily from InuYasha. Slade has a personality/style much like that of Naraku, and they even had VERY similiar one-shot villians in their respective "Thunder Brothers".

You clearly feel that Teen Titans sucked, and while I liked it sometimes, other times it just didn't feel right to me at all.

I guess one could consider it a failed experiment, if one didn't like the show. It was an experiment worth trying, however.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

So is the behavior of most of the main cast members on Ranma 1/2.

The reason I point this out is this...

Teen Titans strikes me as an experiment in combining elements of anime, with elements of traditional North American cartoons.

I think that Teen Titans tried to take the over-the-top outlandish personalities that are fairly common in anime, and incorporate them into already existing superhero characters.

Robin is, in fact, much as you portray him... but he's no worse than Ranma Saotome. In many ways, he's like a mixture of Ranma Saotome with Dick Grayson or Tim Drake.

Also, I think that Teen Titans borrowed heavily from InuYasha. Slade has a personality/style much like that of Naraku, and they even had VERY similiar one-shot villians in their respective "Thunder Brothers".

You clearly feel that Teen Titans sucked, and while I liked it sometimes, other times it just didn't feel right to me at all.

I guess one could consider it a failed experiment, if one didn't like the show. It was an experiment worth trying, however.

Actually, Ranma is far more morally scrupilous than TT Robin ever will be.

FYI, Thunder and Lightning were actaully comic characters many years before Rumiko Takahashi even started her mangaka career.

Ranma at least has s somewhat strange sense of moral obligation if he thinks or feels he's injured someone in any way. TT Robin not only doesn't have that, he doesn't care in any event.

One episode had a normal biker thug bruise his ego and egg him on in an ongoing street race. The thug was a low level thug, certainly no kingpin of crime, and certainly if Robin is supposed to be as much the detective as we are supposed to believe, he could have surely tracked Johnny Rancid down at a later time.

Robin continued this dangerous chase, the two bikers constantly trying to 'out-do' eachother, both of them, TWICE, using other, MOVING VEHICLES as launch ramps to jump to a higher platform. THe car that Robin smashed in, the rear passenger compartment was smashed down to the trunk.

Surely any vehicle that just had a 500 lb motorcycle smash its rear roof would surely loose control or brake immediately, thus would certainly cause an accident on a busy bridge.

Robin didn't care, he did it anyways, the biker punk Johnny Rancid made fun of him. More than that, inversely, the team treats him much better than anyone else in the team, even if that 'anyone else' is in the exact same predicament Robin was in. (Compare 'Beast Within' to 'Haunted'. The Team's actions in supporting Robin's erradic and fatally stupid behavior to harshly interrogate Beast Boy in "Beast Within", when they KNEW he was infected with a biological agent, thus any actions Beast boy took prior were not his own fault, when just a few eps prior, in Haunted, when Robin himself showed the same erradic behavior, the team was much more kind to him, and worried about his well being).

The whole team are hypocrites to follow his lead and behavior. And Robin's behavior in "Masks" was again horrid, hundreds of times worse than Batman's actions in the comic "Tower of Babel" in that Batman only made plans(and gave a good reason as to why he even thought up said plains), while Robin made plans and enacted them, PERSONALLY.

I don't see this 'anime mix'. It's not true anime in the mix, it's what a committee of 40 something year old men that read market research polls THINK anime is.

EDIT: if you want to see true american anime, watch this show on nick called "Avatar". THAT is more like anime than japanese anime has been for almost a decade.

[Sean Walsh]

What the hell???:confused: I never made this thread:(

I never meant to inspire it, myself.......but I don't mind. ;) :p