Essential FF #5

[Gingold]

I picked this up yesterday. Other than the Doom story that opens the volume, this was all new to me. It's nice to have the entire Lee/Kirby run in this format. There's some good stuff in this one. I love the story with Ben as a slave and the gangsters from outer space. Kirby at his funnest (sp). The photos of the Marvel staffers at the back were cool too.

Unsurprisingly,there's a huge drop off in quality when Kirby leaves. I love Jazzy Johnny Romita, but he was not suited for the FF at all. And it becomes entirely clear that Jack was doing the lion's share of the plotting. What caused Kirby to leave in the middle of a storyline? I'm sure I've heard before, but I can't remember for the life of me.

Did anyone else pick this up? What did you think?

[Agentum]

He wanted more freedom in his work and he was angry because as you point out he did most of the plotting but got no credit for it from Marvel or Lee that he thought tried to take most of the credit for the books.
And he did not get any rights to his own characters and inventions he had worked so hard for.

I don't think he ever sued Marvel over this, but he should have i think.

[PeteGunn]

He wanted more freedom in his work and he was angry because as you point out he did most of the plotting but got no credit for it from Marvel or Lee that he thought tried to take most of the credit for the books.
And he did not get any rights to his own characters and inventions he had worked so hard for.

I don't think he ever sued Marvel over this, but he should have i think.

Don't you also think that Kirby did dialogue as well as plotting? Take FF#100, for example. Doesn't that read more Kirby than Lee?

[rick]

At this point Kirby was tired of working for Stan Lee and Marvel, no doubt about that.

However Stan Lee has always, and I mean always, fully credited both Kirby and Ditko for their part in the plotting and writing of the stories they did together.

As for #100, while the dialogue is almost bad enough to be Kirby's, there is just enough goofy humor to it, that I am certain that it was by Stan Lee.

[Agentum]

Don't you also think that Kirby did dialogue as well as plotting? Take FF#100, for example. Doesn't that read more Kirby than Lee?
Well, it could have happen sometimes but i think Stan mostly did the dialogue on the final drawings and ploting from Kirby.

[Joe S. Walker]

The tail-end of Kirby's run, from #95 to 101 (I've never read 102) drops off quite dramatically. At least one of those issues, 96, feels to me as if it could be an unused story from several years earlier.

[Norrin Radd]

I really didn't like the last Dr. Doom story arc in Latveria. Doom is so inconsistently written. One moment he wants to kill an entire village (which is inconsistent in itself) and the next he's all concerned about his people.

[MWGallaher]

I don't think it's quite fair to say Stan Lee gave "full credit" to Kirby. Sure, these issues of FF say "by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" but the way that the books were created made it difficult to break the credits down in such a way as to convey how much of the story was Jack's. A joint credit is just not enough, particularly after years of giving the impression that Lee was the "writer", with all that implies. And that's not Stan's fault. It's just that the product defied a concise system of credits.
I think Kirby knew he'd have to do work all on his own to show how much he was really contributing to the comics that people were enjoying, to prove that he wasn't just illustrating someone else's scripts.

[kozmo]

If you read The Jack Kirby Collector magazine, where they show a lot of Kirby's original art, you can see that Jack wrote in dialogue for the stories.

After reading lots and lots of interviews, I'm convinced that the way it worked between Stan and Jack was that Stan would tell Jack "this one has Dr. Doom kidnapping the whole Baxter Building" and then Jack laying out the pacing and the main plot on the pages, including suggested dialogue. Stan would then rework the dialogue, including the bits that created the "soap opera" elements, put in any captions that were needed for clarity (and subplots) and send it to the letterer and inker.

by the time you get to the end run on FF (as shown in Essential Vol. 5), I don't even think Stan was suggesting the main idea. Jack Kirby loved playing with 20's gangster stereotypes (after all one of his first solo works for DC was the "In the Days of the Mob" magazine). We also know that he was intrigued by the TV show "The Prisoner" because he worked up a partial adaptation of the show that was never finished (again, JKC magazine has run much of the existing art for this, and it's clear that Jack was into the project, not just doing it as an assignment). So the storyline that's a riff on gangsters and being a prisoner with no easy means of escape hits many of Jack's sweet spots.

There's also many interviews with Jack and his compatriots that make it very clear that after 68 or so, when Jack asked for a raise, didn't get one, but then saw Stan getting more and more praise and outside income opportunities (speaking at colleges, etc.), he vowed to never create another new character for Marvel. And I believe that if you nail that date down, he didn't. He had been working on the New Gods as a possible storyline to introduce in Thor, but put them aside. I believe that Him (later Adam Warlock) was the last new character created for Marvel by Kirby before he left for DC and the Fourth World books. so Jack "swiping" story ideas from other media like gangster films and "the Prisoner" could easily be seen as one way to not create anything new or original.

(It's also well documented that Jack loved to have the TV on while he drew. so he could easily have been inspired by the movies he was watching at the time, too).

Remember, Ditko left Marvel when he disagreed with how Stan dialogued several Spider-man stories. not how Stan plotted them, but how he dialogued them. it was Stan's insistence on the plot point of Green Goblin being a known character instead of the unknown nebbish that Ditko wanted that led Ditko to quit. This reinforces the notion that when he trusted his collaborators, Stan didn't influence the plot very much either, just the dialogue.

By the way, this is not meant to denigrate the contribution of Stan Lee. As the later work of both Ditko and Kirby show, Stan's tempering of their dialogue went a long way towards making their characters and plots as memorable as they were. And it was only through this method that Stan could write as many books as he did. And only because one man was writing and coordinating so many of the books was the idea of the consistent universe for continuity brought to the forefront.

[sheets]

by the time you get to the end run on FF (as shown in Essential Vol. 5), I don't even think Stan was suggesting the main idea. Jack Kirby loved playing with 20's gangster stereotypes (after all one of his first solo works for DC was the "In the Days of the Mob" magazine). We also know that he was intrigued by the TV show "The Prisoner" because he worked up a partial adaptation of the show that was never finished (again, JKC magazine has run much of the existing art for this, and it's clear that Jack was into the project, not just doing it as an assignment). So the storyline that's a riff on gangsters and being a prisoner with no easy means of escape hits many of Jack's sweet spots.

I always figured this storyline was inspired by the Star Trek episode "A Piece of the Action". The premises of the stories are virtually identical.

[david r]

Kozmo got it right. Jack Kirby created most of the plots and new characters. Jack was the creative engine. Stan Lee was perfect at crafting dialogue that was great for the 1960s. Stan could write dialogue for some of Kirby's more esoteric creations that wouldn't go over the heads of kids in the '60s.

I've read that the relationship between them deteriorated so badly that Jack Kirby stormed into Marvel publisher Martin Goodman's office in '67 and said "I can no longer work with Stan Lee. It's either me or the kid." Kirby was enraged that Stan Lee was trying to take full-credit for the characters and plots, when this was completely untrue. Goodman tried to patch up the differences, but Kirby never forgave Lee or Goodman for his treatment.

Kirby really stopped creating new characters in 1967. Only Annihilus debuted in '67 that had any lasting impact. If you look at the years 1961-66, they are FILLED with new characters and ideas. Beginning with 1967, those new characters stopped, and the Fantastic Four began to just recycle the same old characters (Doom, Mole Man, Skrulls, etc.) Lee's butchering of the "Him" storyline definitely did not help, either.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Kozmo got it right. Jack Kirby created most of the plots and new characters. Jack was the creative engine. Stan Lee was perfect at crafting dialogue that was great for the 1960s. Stan could write dialogue for some of Kirby's more esoteric creations that wouldn't go over the heads of kids in the '60s.

I've read that the relationship between them deteriorated so badly that Jack Kirby stormed into Marvel publisher Martin Goodman's office in '67 and said "I can no longer work with Stan Lee. It's either me or the kid." Kirby was enraged that Stan Lee was trying to take full-credit for the characters and plots, when this was completely untrue. Goodman tried to patch up the differences, but Kirby never forgave Lee or Goodman for his treatment.

Kirby really stopped creating new characters in 1967. Only Annihilus debuted in '67 that had any lasting impact. If you look at the years 1961-66, they are FILLED with new characters and ideas. Beginning with 1967, those new characters stopped, and the Fantastic Four began to just recycle the same old characters (Doom, Mole Man, Skrulls, etc.) Lee's butchering of the "Him" storyline definitely did not help, either.
David, if you're refering to the article of "The Jack Kirby collector" I'm thinking of, it was biased, I wonder how much of it was actualy true.

[Reptisaurus!]

Kozmo got it right. Jack Kirby created most of the plots and new characters. Jack was the creative engine. Stan Lee was perfect at crafting dialogue that was great for the 1960s. Stan could write dialogue for some of Kirby's more esoteric creations that wouldn't go over the heads of kids in the '60s.


Hard to say. Obviously Kirby has vastly more creative credits to his name workin' without Kirby or Ditko. 'Fact, Lee's only major post-sixties creation was the She-Hulk. Which I can't help but see as being sort of... revealing.

But: Kirby's assistant and biographer Mark Evanier discusses this on his website website (http://www.povonline.com/Jack%20Kirby.htm) and says that all the Lee/Kirby creations have to be viewed as, well, Lee/Kirby creations, and that they can't be viewed as being MORE Stan or MORE Jack.

Although, shoot, even if J.K. did everything, (which isn't true) Stan's still a frickin' genius. We've seen thirty plus years of Marvel and DC EIC's flail around trying to match Lee's marketing savy, and none of 'em have even halfway come close.


Kirby really stopped creating new characters in 1967. Only Annihilus debuted in '67 that had any lasting impact.


Wasn't HIS fault the public never warmed to Tomazooma.


Remember, Ditko left Marvel when he disagreed with how Stan dialogued several Spider-man stories. not how Stan plotted them, but how he dialogued them. it was Stan's insistence on the plot point of Green Goblin being a known character instead of the unknown nebbish that Ditko wanted that led Ditko to quit. This reinforces the notion that when he trusted his collaborators, Stan didn't influence the plot very much either, just the dialogue.


As far as I can tell the Ditko-left-cause-of-the-Green-Goblin story is unverifiable at best, an urban legend at worst. Stan says he doesn't know why Ditko left, and Ditko ain't talking. So any reports on how this colaboration ended are second hand. Although if the Comics Journal can be believed, Stan Lee did say that Ditko was completely responsible for plotting the later issues of his run on Spidey in an interview with New York magazine in '66.

[david r]

@Stephane Garrelie, I have not read that Jack Kirby Collector article you mention. I have heard for years about the difficulties between Stan & Jack. In EVERY SINGLE one, it was never Jack Kirby causing the animosity between them. It has always been reported as Stan Lee and his ego.

Obviously, Stan Lee was a great scripter during the 1960s. And his "cheerleader" role for Marvel has turned him into a legend. But the simple fact of the matter IMO, is without Kirby and Ditko, Stan Lee would be nowhere. This is strictly my opinion, but Stan had been doing comics for 20 years before Fantastic Four #1, and had done absolutely nothing noteworthy during that entire 20-year span. Nada. Nothing outstanding, yet Jack Kirby was already a popular creator with several creations under his belt (Captain America and Challengers of the Unknown, to name a few.)

No, Stan Lee doesn't suddenly begin "creating" these fantastic characters until he hooks up with Kirby and Ditko in the early 1960s. Only during his collaborations with Jack and Steve Ditko does this brilliance begin to come from Stan Lee's imagination. And as soon as Kirby left Marvel, Stan Lee's imagination mysteriously dried up. How coincidental.

I know, I know. Stan Lee is a great guy, and I'm probably spitting on an icon. Stan has been tremendously important to comics and Marvel, obviously. But I'm firmly in the Kirby Camp in this issue. Jack Kirby was the creative engine that built Marvel. Stan Lee was a great dialogue-writer and cheerleader. But Stan creating all these characters, I will never believe that.

[Stephane Garrelie]

David R

From The Jack Kirby Collector #24: http://twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/24compare.html


Of course Kirby was very active on the level of the plot and of the creation of characters, but don't forget that Stan Lee co-create lots of great character not only with Dikto (who did create by himself many characters for other publishers: the question, etc...) but with John Romita (the Kipking, the prowler,...) and Gene Colan (most of Daredevil villains) too.

And i always heard that Stan was the one who came with the idea for the Fantastic Four. Kirby may have created most of the villains (or just co-created them), but Stan doesn't look like just a "great dialogue-writer". On the level of plot what he did on spider-man with Romita prove thay even without Kirby or Dikto, he could write.

And circa 1968 Stan Lee began to come in retirement. there's the movie project with Alain Resnais that never happened (i don't know if anything else than the photo of Stan by Resnais is left of this) and maybe after all these years in comics he finnally chose to do what he was thinking of already before the creation of the FF.

Kirby did create lot of other great characters after that: the new gods, the Demon, Kamandi, the eternals, Machine Man, etc... Even if they weren't commercial succes, they are great creations and many of the stories were great, even if the writing was out of date.
(I'm a huge fan of "the Ten-For Saga" in Machine Man).

But does this mean that there weren't two great creators of characters and ploters on the Lee/Kirby books?
I don't think so.

[david r]

From The Jack Kirby Collector #24: http://twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/24compare.html

Thanks for that link. highly interesting. I'd read about the "Him" story being shortened. And I'm sure Jack felt it was the last straw. Overall, the article just strengthens my belief in who actually built the "House of Ideas".

And i always heard that Stan was the one who came with the idea for the Fantastic Four.

We'll never know. Stan Lee naturally says he was considering quitting comics, and just did Fantastic Four "his way" because he did not care about the outcome. Another story is that publisher Martin Goodman told Kirby that he was going to end Marvel Comics. Jack said "Give me a comic and let me do it my way, and let's see if we can turn this baby around." And Martin said, "Okay, you've got six issues."

On the level of plot what he did on spider-man with Romita prove thay even without Kirby or Dikto, he could write.

I think "Spider-Man" was the perfect book for Stan Lee. Stan was always best suited with down-to-earth, everyman-types of characters. Stan did great work on Spider-Man. But again, he "created" all the best characters with Steve Ditko. Most of the classic villains happened before Romita appeared.

Kirby did create lot of other great characters after that: the new gods, the Demon, Kamandi, the eternals, Machine Man, etc... Even if they weren't commercial succes, they are great creations and many of the stories were great, even if the writing was out of date.
(I'm a huge fan of "the Ten-For Saga" in Machine Man).

You prove my own point with that quote. Look who created the gigantic wealth of characters? Before, during and after his collaboration with Stan Lee? It was Jack Kirby. Stan Lee created nothing worthwhile before Kirby. Stan Lee wrote nothing worthwhile after Jack Kirby. Stan only did his innovative work WITH Kirby.

Whereas Kirby was a fountain of ideas before, during and after Stan Lee.

Stan Lee: great dialogue/scripter; great showman and inspiration for Marvel Comics.Adequate plotter.
Jack Kirby: mind-blowing imagination; great plotter; fantastic artist; lukewarm dialogue/scripter.

[Gothos]

Thanks for that link. highly interesting. I'd read about the "Him" story being shortened. And I'm sure Jack felt it was the last straw. Overall, the article just strengthens my belief in who actually built the "House of Ideas".



We'll never know. Stan Lee naturally says he was considering quitting comics, and just did Fantastic Four "his way" because he did not care about the outcome. Another story is that publisher Martin Goodman told Kirby that he was going to end Marvel Comics. Jack said "Give me a comic and let me do it my way, and let's see if we can turn this baby around." And Martin said, "Okay, you've got six issues."



I think "Spider-Man" was the perfect book for Stan Lee. Stan was always best suited with down-to-earth, everyman-types of characters. Stan did great work on Spider-Man. But again, he "created" all the best characters with Steve Ditko. Most of the classic villains happened before Romita appeared.



You prove my own point with that quote. Look who created the gigantic wealth of characters? Before, during and after his collaboration with Stan Lee? It was Jack Kirby. Stan Lee created nothing worthwhile before Kirby. Stan Lee wrote nothing worthwhile after Jack Kirby. Stan only did his innovative work WITH Kirby.

Whereas Kirby was a fountain of ideas before, during and after Stan Lee.

Stan Lee: great dialogue/scripter; great showman and inspiration for Marvel Comics.Adequate plotter.
Jack Kirby: mind-blowing imagination; great plotter; fantastic artist; lukewarm dialogue/scripter.

You're leaving out one essential fact: though it's true that Kirby did a lot of fine ideas before he teamed with Lee, he didn't do any of them alone, but in collaboration with Joe Simon. And the evidence is strong that Simon provided the impetus for the best-known of their co-creations, Captain America.

From what I can tell I think Kirby was an enormously-intuitive creator, but I also think he needed a sounding-board for his sometimes off-the-wall concepts, someone to smooth them out and make them appealing. I think Simon (and maybe other uncredited writers) served this function in the 40s and early 50s, while Lee provided same in the 60s. The brief time when Kirby was on his own in the 50s gave rise to some good solid concepts, but of them, only the Challengers of the Unknown is fairly well known today. (I guess you could argue that Kirby did take the basic approach of, say, his "Bullseye" and use it to rennovate the Rawhide Kid.) Kirby's New Gods work is the first time we are seeing unadulterated Kirby with all his strengths AND weaknesses.

[Fred2]

Switching topics from Stan Lee and Jack Kirby...

I was looking forward to this Essentials; because, it had the Magneto/Sub-Mariner story in Fantastic Four 104.

I had previewed this story via "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" and was always curious how it turned out. But I was disappointed at the ending where Reed takes out Magneto. Seemed anti-climatic.

Also, was this story repackaged into another comic?

[Joe S. Walker]

Switching topics from Stan Lee and Jack Kirby...

I was looking forward to this Essentials; because, it had the Magneto/Sub-Mariner story in Fantastic Four 104.

I had previewed this story via "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" and was always curious how it turned out. But I was disappointed at the ending where Reed takes out Magneto. Seemed anti-climatic.

Also, was this story repackaged into another comic?

It was retold by John Byrne in X-Men: The Hidden Years, where it was revealed that Professor X had been helping Reed behind the scenes.