Most Pretentious Comic Book Moment

[Brian Cronin]

pre·ten·tious

adj.

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious.


So I was going through my old issues of Batman, looking for Chase's first appearance, when I came across some issues in the early #500s, and my memory was instantly jogged back to what I think was the most pretentious thing I have ever seen in a comic book...

Doug Moench and Kelly Jones' run on Batman

Doug Moench and Kelly Jones had worked together on some well-received Elseworlds graphic novels when Jones signed on to be the regular artist on Batman (inked by John Beatty), written by Moench.

The moment of pretentiousness occured in their very first issue, where, on the first page, they had a little box where they signified the beginning of their run with "DM-KJ-JB 1".

For the rest of the run, they had that box, because, you know, such a historical team just HAD to be acknowledged (Even worse was later on, when Mark Buckingham became the regular penciler on Shadow of the Bat, and Alan Grant COPIED the bit!! Less pretentious, of course, than being the first one to think of it, but still incredibly dorky)!!

I do not believe that I have ever seen anything else in a comic book that better encapsulates the word "pretentious" than that move by Moench and Jones.

Anyone beg to differ?

-Brian

[dancj]

Um, yeah me. Sticking a little memento like that in comics doesn't seem at all pretentious to me.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Bill Jemas.

The exact moment is hard to pick, and they were fun days, but damn he and Joe Q went through a few pretentious moments.

U-decide is probably the big winner, but there were several others...

The epic issue of Marville where he gave the formula for writing a good comic.

The Namor series with the credit 'Plot by Bill Jemas, Script by Andi Watson' - cause Andi Watson really needs help....

His credit in 'The Ultimates' - 'President and Inspiration'.

Ron Zimmerman. Nothing personal against Ron Zimmerman, and I hear he lifted his game towards the end, but when he first burst on the scene they put him everywhere and ignored all compliants because 'he's Ron Zimmerman, he works for Howard Stern'.

[Gingold]

Can Ann Nocenti's run on Kid Eternity count as a "moment"? Or all of Moonshadow?

Otherwise, I might go with those "Our World at War" stories by Jeph Loeb (or maybe Joe Kelly?) that used famous political speeches as the narrative device of the comics.

[Apathy Boy]

The issue of PLANETARY where the John Constantine analogue transformed into a Spider Jerusalem analogue. That comic irked me to no end. How bloody self-referential can you be?

KINGDOM COME. A ton of over-the-top melodrama and a bunch of high-falutin' biblical allusions, and for what purpose? So Alex Ross can show that classic superheroes are cooler than '90s Imagey superheroes. That's deep, man.

[JLarson]

The original New Mutants book was smelling its own farts a lot, especially during the beginning. Dream Bear Saga? Asgardian Super Meaning Of Life Saga? Jesus. What did that mainstream of urine think it was?

That Planetary issue was fucking great though, man.

[Brian Cronin]

Can Ann Nocenti's run on Kid Eternity count as a "moment"? Or all of Moonshadow?

Otherwise, I might go with those "Our World at War" stories by Jeph Loeb (or maybe Joe Kelly?) that used famous political speeches as the narrative device of the comics.

Those speeches were pretty pretentious, because they really didn't help the story at all.

-Brian

[Apathy Boy]

That Planetary issue was fucking great though, man.For me, that issue was the first sign that the series was starting to go off the rails. I was really getting into the groove of this whole "secret history of pop culture" thing that Ellis was doing, but it felt like the series' momentum just ground to a halt so that Ellis could say, "Even though I got taken off HELLBLAZER, at least I got to write TRANSMETROPOLITAN."

Hard to think of something more pretentious than Ellis placing his own work alongside the other, much more famous works he analogued in the rest of the series.

[Elegance Liberty]

KINGDOM COME. A ton of over-the-top melodrama and a bunch of high-falutin' biblical allusions, and for what purpose? So Alex Ross can show that classic superheroes are cooler than '90s Imagey superheroes. That's deep, man.

IMO, *anything* Alex Ross does story-wise is pretentious.

[JLarson]

For me, that issue was the first sign that the series was starting to go off the rails. I was really getting into the groove of this whole "secret history of pop culture" thing that Ellis was doing, but it felt like the series' momentum just ground to a halt so that Ellis could say, "Even though I got taken off HELLBLAZER, at least I got to write TRANSMETROPOLITAN."

Hard to think of something more pretentious than Ellis placing his own work alongside the other, much more famous works he analogued in the rest of the series.

I guess I saw it more as just another issue in the title as it continued to explore all of the vast comic archetypes - it seemed reasonable to me that that issue, which featured analogues of almost all of the Vertigo staples, ended like that. I realized it was his little moment, in a way, but it didn't keep me from thinking it was clever. I didn't read much into it, though.

[csaver]

Whenever John Byrne starts writing a series.

Seriously, every time this guy gets the reins his name should be over the title. Not to stroke his own ego, but to warn comic book buyers that the characters one was attached to will have no resemblence to the ones John Byrne is going to write.

It's not "The Incredible Hulk"...it's "John Byrne's Incredible Hulk".

Not "Doom Patrol". It's "John Byrne's Doom Patrol".

I mean, I know other writers put their stamp on things during their runs, and can even change things about the characters, but Byrne's style is just plain inorganic.

[MWGallaher]

The title of almost any Don McGregor story, for example:
"Malice by Crimson Moonlight"
"A Remembrance of Threatening Green"
"Thorns in the Flesh, Thorns in the Mind"
"A Slice of Breast, Please Hold the Gaucamole (Other Peoples Blood Part 2)"
"Of Memories, Both Vicious and Haunting"
"An Exploitation of Everything Dear Part One: Imprisonment"

Or how about the wonderful Craig Russell giving every major job an "Opus Number"?

Or the issue of "Alan Moore's" Supreme where Jack Kirby's head appeared as a sort of god of creativity? From everything I've read about Kirby, "Supreme" would be one of the most distasteful concepts he could imagine someone working on, and a "tribute" there strikes me as inappropriate. But pretentious, still.

[Brian Cronin]

Or how about the wonderful Craig Russell giving every major job an "Opus Number"?

Good one!

-Brian

[Albert]

What comes to mind is an issue of Howard the Duck, where Gerber tossed off a few pages of text (each page a splash page) because he was late on his deadline and had to submit something. Granted, the issue did have moments of self-deprecating humor, but it was as if Yoda had gotten drunk and tried to write a sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

What comes to mind is an issue of Howard the Duck, where Gerber tossed off a few pages of text (each page a splash page) because he was late on his deadline and had to submit something. Granted, the issue did have moments of self-deprecating humor, but it was as if Yoda had gotten drunk and tried to write a sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

I loved that issue.

I think it's great that MArvel allowed him to completly ditch narrative for an issue, and just ramble about what ever was on his mind.

I also find it intresting that the Las Vegas girl and the Ostrich would show up again 20 year later in his book Nevada.

[scratchie]

What comes to mind is an issue of Howard the Duck, where Gerber tossed off a few pages of text (each page a splash page) because he was late on his deadline and had to submit something. Granted, the issue did have moments of self-deprecating humor, but it was as if Yoda had gotten drunk and tried to write a sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".I wouldn't call that pretentious because it was extremely self-deprecating and done with a sense of fun. The whole issue is basically riduculing the idea of pretentious comic books.

[Albert]

I loved that issue.

I think it's great that MArvel allowed him to completly ditch narrative for an issue, and just ramble about what ever was on his mind.

I also find it intresting that the Las Vegas girl and the Ostrich would show up again 20 year later in his book Nevada.

I'll agree it did have its moments... such as the 'Gerber' baby food sequence.

I don't think Marvel had much of a choice on this one. I mean, it was either that or go with a re-print, and HtD was still a young series, so a reprint would have likely cost them a good deal of sales. While I did enjoy the issue for what it was, I still felt it was a little too self-important for my tatses... though not on the level of Byrne's appearances in FF.

Tomayto, tomahto.

[Reptisaurus!]

Honestly, folks: Mainstream comics don't really DO pretentious very well. You can only get so artsy-fartsy when you're main character nancies about in pajamas and defeats his enemies with super breath. Well, alright, MAYBE Don McGregor. Maybe.

If you REALLY want pretentious, you gotta check the small press.

Ferinstance: I've got this poorly copied zine that mixes random Eightball panels with whiney, whiney poetry. Kind of an interesting idea, but it combines the properties of (A) having no real understanding of craft, and (B) being sufused in completely generic suburban angst. Everyone you know has the same problems that this guy did, and whines about 'em more creatively.

I'll see if I can find some scans.

[Cei-U!]

Adam Warlock, Space Christ.

Cei-U!
Nuff said!

[scratchie]

Adam Warlock, Space Christ.You win! :D

[DarthAstuart]

i'm gonna nominate a current candidate--paul jenkins using the history of war as a jumping-off point for heavy-handed and even slightly offensive allegories to the events in civil war.

what the frick does spider-man have to do with japanese interrment camps from WWII? really? my lord.

it was as if Yoda had gotten drunk and tried to write a sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

can someone get to work on this exact idea? please? now?

[will_butler]

*In Yoda voice*

Hmmm... whining again my son is. Glad I am that the roar of the engine drowns him out. Ramble incessantly about "quality" for 30 pages now I will.

[WatsonGlenn]

The most pretentious moment in comics hands down:

After saving the Earth and everyone on it multiple times Green Lantern is lectured by an old Black man who knows jack shit about anything.

I been reading about you, how you work for the Blue skins and how on a planet somewhere you helped the orange skins and how you done considerable for the purple skins. Only there's skins you never bothered with...!

The Black skins. I want to know how come?!

Green Lantern turns away like he had just been caught at a Klan meeting.

Even as a kid I knew that was a load of pretentious crap.

[Greg Hatcher]

I have to go with Don McGregor's indie work, particularly the first Detectives Inc. Which has hardly any detective work in it, because it was crowded out by the endless musing by all the characters on how it's bad for people not to be nice to each other. And we all should just live and let live, because love is beautiful even for lesbians.

Not making ANY of that up. Back me up, older fans, would you? I got embarrassed for McGregor just typing that. But that's really what the book was. Overlord Cronin betrays his youth when he singles out Moench and Jones... neither got close to McGregor in his prime.

[scratchie]

I have to go with Don McGregor's indie work, particularly the first Detectives Inc. Which has hardly any detective work in it, because it was crowded out by the endless musing by all the characters on how it's bad for people not to be nice to each other. And we all should just live and let live, because love is beautiful even for lesbians.

Not making ANY of that up. Back me up, older fans, would you? I got embarrassed for McGregor just typing that. But that's really what the book was. Overlord Cronin betrays his youth when he singles out Moench and Jones... neither got close to McGregor in his prime.I bought this book off of Ebay but haven't read it yet. But based on your description, I believe it. His work on the first Nathaniel Dusk series wasn't exactly subtle.

Which, speaking of Gene Colan, also reminds me of Jemm, Son of Saturn. I don't know if I'd call it the "most pretentious ever" but the words "subtle", "flying" and "mallet" come to mind when thinking of this over-long story of a visitor from Saturn who befriends a young black boy in New York, and then becomes entangled in a war among Saturnians based on -- wait for it -- their skin color.

[Cei-U!]

His work on the first Nathaniel Dusk series wasn't exactly subtle.

No, but it was the most subtle McGregor's ever been... which kinda proves Greg's point.

Cei-U!
I summon the overwraught overwriter!

[lonewolf23k]

Grant Morrisson's the Filth. All of it. It's all just a big piece of Morrisson's Intellectual Masterbation, really.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I have to go with Don McGregor's indie work, particularly the first Detectives Inc. Which has hardly any detective work in it, because it was crowded out by the endless musing by all the characters on how it's bad for people not to be nice to each other. And we all should just live and let live, because love is beautiful even for lesbians.

Not making ANY of that up. Back me up, older fans, would you? I got embarrassed for McGregor just typing that. But that's really what the book was. Overlord Cronin betrays his youth when he singles out Moench and Jones... neither got close to McGregor in his prime.

Well I only read 'A Remembrance of Threatening Green' this year, and I quite enjoyed it.
It was far from perfect, but for the time it came out and the issues raised, it was good.
My biggest problem with me was how close it got to being a solid example of why comics are a great medium but just fell short.

But yeah, it did get pretentious in places.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Grant Morrisson's the Filth. All of it. It's all just a big piece of Morrisson's Intellectual Masterbation, really.

But why is it pretentious?

[Greg Hatcher]

Well I only read 'A Remembrance of Threatening Green' this year, and I quite enjoyed it.
It was far from perfect, but for the time it came out and the issues raised, it was good.
My biggest problem with me was how close it got to being a solid example of why comics are a great medium but just fell short.

But yeah, it did get pretentious in places.

Here's the thing about McGregor's stuff; it doesn't AGE well. Honest to God, in the 70's a lot of us thought he was going to lead the comics revolution. But you kind of have to be fifteen years old in 1979 for that really to feel plausible. Looking back -- I can't speak for the others -- but rereading that stuff I kind of get the feeling you get when someone shows you an old photograph of you in a leisure suit and a puka shell necklace. That "Oh my GAWD how did I EVER think this was cool" feeling.

There is an earnestness about Don McGregor's work that's hard to dislike. He did break a lot of ground. He was doing things in comics that no one else dared to try. And the second Detectives Inc. was miles better than the first in terms of the plotting and writing. But really, reading that work today my first reaction is always uncomfortable embarrassment. Maybe you had to be there for the first time around, when McGregor was being canonized in letters pages the way guys like Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis are today on the net.

For my money McGregor really hit his peak on Killraven, though they tell me the later Zorro work is good, and there was a James Bond mini he did for Dark Horse I liked quite a bit. But Killraven seemed to find the balance between having fun and Saying Something Important for him.

[palaeomerus]

The issue of PLANETARY where the John Constantine analogue transformed into a Spider Jerusalem analogue. That comic irked me to no end. How bloody self-referential can you be?


Yeah, no joke! "When I think about me I touch myself!"

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Here's the thing about McGregor's stuff; it doesn't AGE well. Honest to God, in the 70's a lot of us thought he was going to lead the comics revolution. But you kind of have to be fifteen years old in 1979 for that really to feel plausible. Looking back -- I can't speak for the others -- but rereading that stuff I kind of get the feeling you get when someone shows you an old photograph of you in a leisure suit and a puka shell necklace. That "Oh my GAWD how did I EVER think this was cool" feeling.

There is an earnestness about Don McGregor's work that's hard to dislike. He did break a lot of ground. He was doing things in comics that no one else dared to try. And the second Detectives Inc. was miles better than the first in terms of the plotting and writing. But really, reading that work today my first reaction is always uncomfortable embarrassment. Maybe you had to be there for the first time around, when McGregor was being canonized in letters pages the way guys like Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis are today on the net.

For my money McGregor really hit his peak on Killraven, though they tell me the later Zorro work is good, and there was a James Bond mini he did for Dark Horse I liked quite a bit. But Killraven seemed to find the balance between having fun and Saying Something Important for him.

I've only read '...threatening green', but from that I could see why you would have thought he was cool.
It blew my mind that someone was writing like that pre-watchmen.
I think his heart was in the right place, but he just didn't have the skills to do it.
For instance in 'Threatening Green' one of the characters is only finding himself arouse by Lesbian imagery, and can't stop thinking about it.
However, from memory, it just didn't really seem to go anywhere.
Good start to a really good character piece, but it just didn't get there.
It's like he knew what the ingredients were, but didn't know how to actually cook the dish.*



*And that's why I generally stay away from metaphors/similies.

[atoningunifex]

For my money- and since I spent $2.99 on it I can say that with some confidence- the most ridiculously pretentious moment in recent memory is the backup story in issue 11 of Mark Waid's current Legion of Super-Heroes title.

The very idea of Waid- a man who has a living because of fanboys- making a heavy-handed point about the priorities of fandom reeks of pretention. Not only is his point simplistic and poorly expressed, but he chooses to put it in a book that has as its core readership the very essence of fan mentality. Is Pastor Waid preaching the gospel of fanboy-get-a-life while writing a book that only exists because of fanboy love? I think he is.

I've rarely seen such a blatant display of utter contempt, a display made all the more annoying considering that the people Waid is castigating are the very same people who support his product.

All hail Mark Waid, Pretentious Twit.

[Crash-Man]

Which, speaking of Gene Colan, also reminds me of Jemm, Son of Saturn. I don't know if I'd call it the "most pretentious ever" but the words "subtle", "flying" and "mallet" come to mind when thinking of this over-long story of a visitor from Saturn who befriends a young black boy in New York, and then becomes entangled in a war among Saturnians based on -- wait for it -- their skin color.


Holy shiiiit...

That was one of the first comics I ever read, when I was about 7 or 8.

Wow. Musta read that single issue 40 times. Haven't thought about it in years.


Anyway, back OT...I think Captain Marvel's death in Kingdom Come qualifies, but I don't think it's the worse I've seen. I'll think back.

That internment camp backstory in Civil War: Frontline was also pretty bad.

[Kevin]

Rick's speech in issue 25 of The Walking Dead annoyed the crap out of me. Kirkman just treated the whole "WE ARE THE WALKING DEAD" thing like it was way more important and earth-shattering than it really was, especially when he'd explained it already in the letters page.

[Norrin Radd]

Earth X-especially those long, rambling essays at the end of each issue where Machine Man and Uatu talk about what happened to all the characters up to that time.

[Joey Deadcat]

Liked Batman: Arkham Asylum but that could fit in this topic. Even Grant Morrison retrospectively looks on it as being pretentious.

[Hierocles]

pre·ten·tious

adj.

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious.


So I was going through my old issues of Batman, looking for Chase's first appearance, when I came across some issues in the early #500s, and my memory was instantly jogged back to what I think was the most pretentious thing I have ever seen in a comic book...

Doug Moench and Kelly Jones' run on Batman

Doug Moench and Kelly Jones had worked together on some well-received Elseworlds graphic novels when Jones signed on to be the regular artist on Batman (inked by John Beatty), written by Moench.

The moment of pretentiousness occured in their very first issue, where, on the first page, they had a little box where they signified the beginning of their run with "DM-KJ-JB 1".

For the rest of the run, they had that box, because, you know, such a historical team just HAD to be acknowledged (Even worse was later on, when Mark Buckingham became the regular penciler on Shadow of the Bat, and Alan Grant COPIED the bit!! Less pretentious, of course, than being the first one to think of it, but still incredibly dorky)!!

I do not believe that I have ever seen anything else in a comic book that better encapsulates the word "pretentious" than that move by Moench and Jones.

Anyone beg to differ?

I do. I don't think the numbering was pretentious and implied that the guys thought they were doing an historic, earth-shattering run. I feel it was rather an indication that after having worked together on some Batman projects in previous years, the three guys were enthusiastic about embarking on the monthly book -- for Jones and Beatty at least, it was definitely a "promotion" -- and thought they were going to stay for a good while (they were right: almost 40 issues).

Sure, the numbering wasn't absolutely necessary -- but does that make it pretentious? What's pretentious about a writer-penciller-inker team showing this much team spirit? Whether one appreciates the work they did together or not, I think most agree that, as a team, they showcased a "style" that is not 100% like the stuff they do with other creative partners. Thus, a "DM-KJ-JB" book has a fairly distinctive feel, at the very least among Batman comics.

(And from what I understand, the "move" was not by Moench and/or Jones, but by inker John Beatty.)

[Damo]

#1 and #2 Identity Crisis and Countdown to Infinite Crisis. Because those old books you loved were no good, oh good lord no. There had to be a deep dark underbelly to them. All those other writers were just too stupid to think of it. We're correcting the horrible mistakes of the past!

[scratchie]

How about Civil War: Frontline #1, comparing the super-hero "civil war" to Japanese internment camps? Ouch.

[algertman]

Gaiman Sandman

I win

[The Mirrorball Man]

Whenever John Byrne starts writing a series.

Seriously, every time this guy gets the reins his name should be over the title. Not to stroke his own ego, but to warn comic book buyers that the characters one was attached to will have no resemblence to the ones John Byrne is going to write.

It's not "The Incredible Hulk"...it's "John Byrne's Incredible Hulk".

Not "Doom Patrol". It's "John Byrne's Doom Patrol".
And that's a very good thing, because after a while, we can just decrete that all these stories happened in the soon-to-be-retconned-out-of-existence "John Byrne's Universe".

[Johnny Triangles]

Frank Miller's Daredevil Elektra run.

[algertman]

And that's a very good thing, because after a while, we can just decrete that all these stories happened in the soon-to-be-retconned-out-of-existence "John Byrne's Universe".


Prasie be to Geoff Johns for "Retcon Punch!"

[TheTen-EyedMan]

I was going to say Cerebus but then I thought about it....it would have been too obvious.

Dave Sim shrank back into solitude in the mid-80s after the fufurall with his wife. But solitude never hurt anyone. Emily Dickinson lived alone, and she wrote some of the most beautiful poetry the world has ever known... then went crazy as a loon.

Cerebus is the finest documentation of a person going slowly stark, staring buggo ever published. Even better Mike Sekowsky's slide into insanity during his JLA run in the 60s. That guy went cuckoo!

[The Mirrorball Man]

Dave Sim shrank back into solitude in the mid-80s after the fufurall with his wife. But solitude never hurt anyone. Emily Dickinson lived alone, and she wrote some of the most beautiful poetry the world has ever known... then went crazy as a loon.
And Dave Sim lived alone, and created some of the most remarkable comic pages the world has ever known, while being crazy as a loon... He was/is insane, but I don't think he was pretentious.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

And Dave Sim lived alone, and created some of the most remarkable comic pages the world has ever known, while being crazy as a loon... He was/is insane, but I don't think he was pretentious.

I hope my post didn't come across as me thinking that.

The religiosity and anti-women rants aside...Cerebus was a masterpiece.

Prententious is Thor as a Frog.

There...I blasphemed against Walt Simonson.

[algertman]

I hope my post didn't come across as me thinking that.

The religiosity and anti-women rants aside...Cerebus was a masterpiece.

Prententious is Thor as a Frog.

There...I blasphemed against Walt Simonson.


BURN THE UNHOLY ONE! :D

[stealthwise]

Gaiman Sandman

I win

How do you win? Care to give some actual examples??

[scratchie]

How do you win? Care to give some actual examples??And don't forget, you have to beat "Adam Warlock, Space Christ".

[Elegance Liberty]

I got another one:

Blankets.

I swear, I tried to read it at the book store the other day and all it did was hurt my brain. The whole thing just reeks of 'pretentious' to the nth degree.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I got another one:

Blankets.

I swear, I tried to read it at the book store the other day and all it did was hurt my brain. The whole thing just reeks of 'pretentious' to the nth degree.
It's highbrow, yes, but pretentious? It's a pretty straightforward coming of age story. What's so pretentious about that?

[algertman]

How do you win? Care to give some actual examples??


There's no way I don't win. It's friggin Sandman

[Dan Apodaca]

It's highbrow, yes, but pretentious? It's a pretty straightforward coming of age story. What's so pretentious about that?

The fact that it advertises itself as something new and groundbreaking.

Which it's not. It's just a straightforward coming of age story.

[Dan Apodaca]

There's no way I don't win. It's friggin Sandman

Still doesn't beat Adam Warlock, Space Christ.

[algertman]

Still doesn't beat Adam Warlock, Space Christ.


What issues is that? The way that sounds I'm gonna have to read that.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

What issues is that? The way that sounds I'm gonna have to read that.

Jim Starlin's issues of Warlock from 1975 or so.

[Marionette]

Any comic in which the writer appears as a character in the story. Double points if they get to fuck the heroine.

Mark Millar for the ending of Wanted. People who like Millar say I didn't get the joke. In fact my joke retreival capacity failed so completely with this comic that it put me off ever reading a comic with his name on it again.

Any writer who makes a big noise about the importance of showing positive empowered images of asian women and then helps reduce the tiny number of heroes who fit that category by two in less than a year.

[dancj]

Any writer who makes a big noise about the importance of showing positive empowered images of asian women and then helps reduce the tiny number of heroes who fit that category by two in less than a year.

Batgirl's obviously one. Who was the other one?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Any writer who makes a big noise about the importance of showing positive empowered images of asian women and then helps reduce the tiny number of heroes who fit that category by two in less than a year.
On the other hand, I don't think that writers should feel any pressure to keep lame third-stringers alive just because they happen to belong to a minority.

You're Staredcraft, right?

[The Mirrorball Man]

The fact that it advertises itself as something new and groundbreaking.

Which it's not. It's just a straightforward coming of age story.
So rather than the book itself, it's the hype surrounding it that you find pretentious?

[algertman]

I thought the ending for WANTED was just pure horse shit. Infact the whole comic is just Millar begging Hollywood to make a movie out of it. PLEASE ACCPET ME PLEASE ACCEPT ME! It's just so damn sad, yet funny at the same time.

Also, the What If... Bendis stories where he's in it. God I can't stand that.

The only high quality comic I'll give a pass on where the writer shows up is Animal Man by Morrison

[lonewolf23k]

Batgirl's obviously one. Who was the other one?

The female Doctor Light, who was "symbolically" raped and robbed of her powers by the villainous Doctor Light.

[Marionette]

On the other hand, I don't think that writers should feel any pressure to keep lame third-stringers alive just because they happen to belong to a minority.

You're Staredcraft, right?

No, I'm the one Staredcraft quotes.

I don't think that writers should feel any pressure to keep lame third-stringers alive just because they happen to belong to a minority either. But I don't want to drag this thread off topic to explain what I actually meant just because your preset assumptions rewrote it into something you could handily dismiss before it ever reached your brain.

Here is a clue (http://marionetteblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/incandescent-losing-light.html).

[Cei-U!]

Jim Starlin's issues of Warlock from 1975 or so.

Actually, the reference is to the pre-Starlin stories in Marvel Premiere #1-2, Warlock #1-8 and Incredible Hulk #176-78. I've no love for the Starlin material either but this stuff is the very definition of pretentious.

Cei-U!
I hates kozmik komix!

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Actually, the reference is to the pre-Starlin stories in Marvel Premiere #1-2, Warlock #1-8 and Incredible Hulk #176-78. I've no love for the Starlin material either but this stuff is the very definition of pretentious.

Cei-U!
I hates kozmik komix!

I plead my ignorance.

I get a little hazy on Marvel before 1978 when I walked into the comics world.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't think that writers should feel any pressure to keep lame third-stringers alive just because they happen to belong to a minority either. But I don't want to drag this thread off topic to explain what I actually meant just because your preset assumptions rewrote it into something you could handily dismiss before it ever reached your brain.
Sorry, my reply was a little harsh. I've just read your little essay, and to be honest, I think your argument is lacking some important factors. I'm still not convinced that this is a "pretentious comic book moment".

[Stephane Garrelie]

:evilsmile The Adventure of Brian Cronin writen and drawn by Brian Cronin, after a Brian Cronin concept. Won the Cronin Award 2005 of the best comic of the century and The Golden Brian of the all time best comic book.
What i found pretentious is on page 3 in the credits where it is said that "any loser who will follow [him] on the book shouldn't even try to equal the greatness of the Cronin run, cause nobody is as talented as Cronin." This book was published by CBR Comics.:evilsmile

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

There's no way I don't win. It's friggin Sandman

It may have had some pretentious moments, but overall it wasn't pretentious, just the goths who won't shut up about it.

It's kinda like the Invisbles - not the greatest comic ever, nor a prententious piece of wank. It did however, have moments where it almost both.
(the majority of the first volume being in the former (after the first 8 issues) the final twelve issues being largely in the latter category).

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

:evilsmile The Adventure of Brian Cronin writen and drawn by Brian Cronin, after a Brian Cronin concept. Won the Cronin Award 2005 of the best comic of the century and The Golden Brian of the all time best comic book.
What i found pretentious is on page 3 in the credits where it is said that "any loser who will follow [him] on the book shouldn't even try to equal the greatness of the Cronin run, cause nobody is as talented as Cronin." This book was published by CBR Comics.:evilsmile

Brian is the new Byrne?

[Marionette]

Sorry, my reply was a little harsh. I've just read your little essay, and to be honest, I think your argument is lacking some important factors. I'm still not convinced that this is a "pretentious comic book moment".

You have a point. The pretentiousness is in the self-publicity of the writer standing up and daring anyone to criticise his agenda and then doing something that goes against that agenda. And it's more in the way he tells the story than the story itself. It's the whole degredation and almost immediate dismissal of the character from the story that sticks in my craw, rather than the depowering itself.

So is a writer being blatently hypocritical a pretentious moment? Your mileage may vary. But it gives you more to think about than Thor saying "anon" when he means "immediately". How pretentious is it to have a character talk in flowery prose and get it so wrong?

[edit] if you believe my essay is missing something relevent then please PM me about it. If I've missed something I'd be interested to know, but I don't want to derail this thread further.

[Marionette]

There's no way I don't win. It's friggin Sandman

Yeah. Sorry but trash talking a comic without actually giving a reason just makes you look like an idiot.

And "because goths like it" is not a valid reason.

[algertman]

Yeah. Sorry but trash talking a comic without actually giving a reason just makes you look like an idiot.

And "because goths like it" is not a valid reason.


HAW! I didn't even say "because goths like it"

The whole run is a padded out excuse in name dropping.

[Dan Apodaca]

So rather than the book itself, it's the hype surrounding it that you find pretentious?

Notice, I said "advertises itself".

So, both.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

The female Doctor Light, who was "symbolically" raped and robbed of her powers by the villainous Doctor Light.

Man, that Arthur Light is a real bastard.

I remember a time when the only use of the word rape in a comic was if the characters were in a French field filled with yellow flowers.

[stealthwise]

HAW! I didn't even say "because goths like it"

The whole run is a padded out excuse in name dropping.

By "name dropping" do you mean intertextual references to historical and literary events and personas? Because I still have no idea what the heck you're talking about.

[Marionette]

By "name dropping" do you mean intertextual references to historical and literary events and personas? Because I still have no idea what the heck you're talking about.

I'm still waiting for something a bit more solid than vague, unsubstantiated assertions too. If he wants to get a decent troll going he's going to have to try harder.

[dancj]

On the other hand, I don't think that writers should feel any pressure to keep lame third-stringers alive just because they happen to belong to a minority.

Batgirl was hardly a third stringer

The female Doctor Light, who was "symbolically" raped and robbed of her powers by the villainous Doctor Light.

Ah - I didn't know about that one - Cheers.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Batgirl was hardly a third stringer
I was talking about the superheroine Dr. Light.

[dancj]

Yeah - Dr Light was a 3rd stringer

[Lorendiac]

a bunch of high-falutin' biblical allusions, and for what purpose? So Alex Ross can show that classic superheroes are cooler than '90s Imagey superheroes. That's deep, man.

Of course, the ironic thing here was that, from where I stood when I bought the miniseries as it came out, the plot of Kingdom Come seemed to "prove" that Alex Ross saw "classic" old-fashioned superhero Superman as "Mister Crybaby, the Clueless Quitter."

How did the backstory go? Magog killed the Joker. Magog stood trial for this. A jury of his peers ruled that it was a justifiable act of violence, all things considered. Superman was so heartbroken at hearing that one single court decision had made what he judged to be a mistake that he threw a childish super-tantrum and flew off into oblivion for the next several years, rather than lift a finger to help anyone the next time any Global Catastrophe was threatening to wipe out zillions of people.

Sometimes I hear about cases in the criminal justice system that were not resolved the way I think they should have been resolved, but I don't dump all my responsibilities and run off to be a hermit in a cave because of it.

Eventually Superman gets the word that Kansas has just been nuked. "Gosh!" he says. "Even though I had single-handedly prevented such things from happening a thousand times before, it never occurred to me that when I quit being Superman for awhile, this might happen due to my absence!"

So we've established that he's a Crybaby, a Quitter, and Utterly Clueless about the probable consequences of his own absence from the scene for an extended period.

Eventually Superman decides to resume an active role in the world, and clean up the huge mess that the younger generations of heroes and villains have made of things, as he sees it. (Of course, if he had stuck around to provide an example to the younger heroes, and share the benefit of his greater experience with them, there might not be such a huge mess needing to be cleaned up in the first place.)

And Alex Ross's "epic" was supposed to persuade me that Superman was inherently better than those courageous young whippersnappers who, during Kal-El's nice long sulk -- "Go away! Somebody hurt my feelings and I refuse to come out of my room!" -- had actually been risking their necks on a daily basis as they tried to maintain some degree of law and order to keep the lid on the supervillain population? If that was Ross's intention, then he did a fantastic job of shooting himself in the foot!

[Lorendiac]

Any comic in which the writer appears as a character in the story.

Would you make an exception for humor? Self-parody, that sort of thing? In 1982, there was an issue of "New Teen Titans" with a short humorous backup story in which Marv Wolfman and George Perez, the writer/artist/co-plotters team on the title, are abducted from Earth-Prime to Earth-1 by a mad scientist who wants to interrogate them about all the secrets of the Titans so that he can later crush them. Threatened with physical harm if he won't talk, Wolfman caves in very fast. "Talk? I'll sing! I'll dance! I'll recite the Talmud!"

Fortunately, just then the Titans show up. Wolfman hastily changes his tune, saying something like this: "Hey, guys! Great to see you! I hope you know I wasn't gonna spill the beans about your secrets! Honest Injun, I'd never talk! You'll still rescue me, won't you?"

Perez, disgusted by such cowardice and hypocrisy, mutters, "Wolfman, you're despicable!"

The story goes on from there, but you get the general idea. Wolfman was writing the dialogue, and he certainly used himself as a central character in the story (along with Perez), but he was not trying to flatter himself by making us think he was a steely-eyed, fearless, ninja-trained Action Hero who was utterly irresistible to women, etc. Instead, he deliberately made himself look silly, wimpy, and even pretentious, for comic relief! I respect that in a writer. (Besides, it made me laugh!)

[Michael P]

Would you make an exception for humor? Self-parody, that sort of thing? In 1982, there was an issue of "New Teen Titans" with a short humorous backup story in which Marv Wolfman and George Perez, the writer/artist/co-plotters team on the title, are abducted from Earth-Prime to Earth-1 by a mad scientist who wants to interrogate them about all the secrets of the Titans so that he can later crush them. Threatened with physical harm if he won't talk, Wolfman caves in very fast. "Talk? I'll sing! I'll dance! I'll recite the Talmud!"

Fortunately, just then the Titans show up. Wolfman hastily changes his tune, saying something like this: "Hey, guys! Great to see you! I hope you know I wasn't gonna spill the beans about your secrets! Honest Injun, I'd never talk! You'll still rescue me, won't you?"

Perez, disgusted by such cowardice and hypocrisy, mutters, "Wolfman, you're despicable!"

The story goes on from there, but you get the general idea. Wolfman was writing the dialogue, and he certainly used himself as a central character in the story (along with Perez), but he was not trying to flatter himself by making us think he was a steely-eyed, fearless, ninja-trained Action Hero who was utterly irresistible to women, etc. Instead, he deliberately made himself look silly, wimpy, and even pretentious, for comic relief! I respect that in a writer. (Besides, it made me laugh!)
There's also the classic "How Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Create Spider-Man" story in ASM Annual 1, which paints them as rampaging egomaniacs who hate one another's guts.

[Lorendiac]

There's also the classic "How Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Create Spider-Man" story in ASM Annual 1, which paints them as rampaging egomaniacs who hate one another's guts.

And one of the "Essential Daredevil" collections reprints something similar, only this time it's Stan Lee and Gene Colan. Gene shows up to get the plot for the next Daredevil story, which he will draw from Stan's verbal outline and Stan will then fill in dialogue for it. It goes something like this (paraphrased from my imperfect memory):

STAN: Okay, here's the concept! Standing on the rim of a volcano, Daredevil is locked in mortal combat with Baron Zemo!

GENE: But he's dead! How are we going to bring him back?

STAN: Don't worry! You'll think of something!

Gee, Stan certainly was shouldering his fair share of the load when it came to creating cleverly-crafted, self-consistent plots, wasn't he? :)

[Marionette]

Would you make an exception for humor? Self-parody, that sort of thing?

I admit I have a soft spot for the Lee/Kirby appearances in early FF, but notice how they are characterised - we don't even get to see their faces. They are not clever or special, and they get browbeaten by Doctor Doom. It's humour, but very self-depreciating. Also quite brief. Lee and Kirby aren't the puppet masters who manipulate the world of our heroes, they are just a couple of guys doing their job of making comics based on their adventures and occasionally getting caught in the fallout of being that close to them.

And on the other topic I referred to, I am happy to say I have seen the light! (http://marionetteblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/i-have-seen-light.html)

[hangmanjury]

Sorry, dudes. The most pretentious thing in comics ever has to be the last issue of Promethea.

Now don't get me wrong, I LOVED it. I thought it was a great piece of work. But there's no way that isn't pretentious.

[scratchie]

There's also the classic "How Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Create Spider-Man" story in ASM Annual 1, which paints them as rampaging egomaniacs who hate one another's guts.What an interesting idea for a work of fiction.

[stealthwise]

Sorry, dudes. The most pretentious thing in comics ever has to be the last issue of Promethea.

Now don't get me wrong, I LOVED it. I thought it was a great piece of work. But there's no way that isn't pretentious.

I'm interested as to why exactly, but I haven't read it yet, so I'm glad that you didn't spoil it for me.

[hangmanjury]

I'm interested as to why exactly, but I haven't read it yet, so I'm glad that you didn't spoil it for me.
There's not really anything to spoil.

Each page is a splash page, each with a number from 1-32, and you can read them in the order of which they appear in the comic. Or, if you remove the staples and place the pages in order of the numbering, they form a humongous two-sided poster.

The story? Nonexistent. The art? Completely unconventional.

Beautiful? VERY.

Pretentious? Also VERY.

The pretention doesn't take away from how awesome the book and the series are, but yes, it does attract way too much extravagant attention to itself.

[dancj]

I just finished reading Dave McKean's Cages. That was pretty pretentious

Dan

[scratchie]

I'm beginning to think that Civil War has to be seriously in the running, for taking a half-baked premise and then comparing it to Japanese internment, slavery, and Nazi Germany.

[algertman]

I'm beginning to think that Civil War has to be seriously in the running, for taking a half-baked premise and then comparing it to Japanese internment, slavery, and Nazi Germany.


AMERICA IS EVIL!

[Agnew420]

[QUOTE=FunkyGreenJerusalem]Bill Jemas.

The exact moment is hard to pick, and they were fun days, but damn he and Joe Q went through a few pretentious moments.

U-decide is probably the big winner, but there were several others...

The epic issue of Marville where he gave the formula for writing a good comic.

This was not necessarily a pretentious moment, but it sticks in my craw: the whole Epic comics line, where you could send in your submissions to become a comic book artist or writer. In the submission contract it read in some legal mumbo jumbo that Marvel had the "right" to use the submissions in any way they saw fit, didn't have to pay you and could claim credit for creating the idea, as well as continue to make money off of it.
Maybe not pretentious, but downright WRONG.

[Agnew420]

Of course, the ironic thing here was that, from where I stood when I bought the miniseries as it came out, the plot of Kingdom Come seemed to "prove" that Alex Ross saw "classic" old-fashioned superhero Superman as "Mister Crybaby, the Clueless Quitter."

How did the backstory go? Magog killed the Joker. Magog stood trial for this. A jury of his peers ruled that it was a justifiable act of violence, all things considered. Superman was so heartbroken at hearing that one single court decision had made what he judged to be a mistake that he threw a childish super-tantrum and flew off into oblivion for the next several years, rather than lift a finger to help anyone the next time any Global Catastrophe was threatening to wipe out zillions of people.

Sometimes I hear about cases in the criminal justice system that were not resolved the way I think they should have been resolved, but I don't dump all my responsibilities and run off to be a hermit in a cave because of it.

Eventually Superman gets the word that Kansas has just been nuked. "Gosh!" he says. "Even though I had single-handedly prevented such things from happening a thousand times before, it never occurred to me that when I quit being Superman for awhile, this might happen due to my absence!"

So we've established that he's a Crybaby, a Quitter, and Utterly Clueless about the probable consequences of his own absence from the scene for an extended period.

Eventually Superman decides to resume an active role in the world, and clean up the huge mess that the younger generations of heroes and villains have made of things, as he sees it. (Of course, if he had stuck around to provide an example to the younger heroes, and share the benefit of his greater experience with them, there might not be such a huge mess needing to be cleaned up in the first place.)

And Alex Ross's "epic" was supposed to persuade me that Superman was inherently better than those courageous young whippersnappers who, during Kal-El's nice long sulk -- "Go away! Somebody hurt my feelings and I refuse to come out of my room!" -- had actually been risking their necks on a daily basis as they tried to maintain some degree of law and order to keep the lid on the supervillain population? If that was Ross's intention, then he did a fantastic job of shooting himself in the foot!


Hey be fair. There was a writer on that mini series. But I get what you're saying. It is also an homage that you shouldn't kill, no matter how necessary it may be or how many lives it might save. It's just always better to do it "my" way, or the Golden Age way or something like that. Look at X3. Wolverine had to kill the woman he loved, after like a million other women he loved, so that people who hated and feared him could live. I guess that's honorable. Maybe not in Magneto's eyes, but still.

[Agnew420]

How bout Bob Kane getting absolute credit for Batman. He wanted him to wear crimson and it looked nothing like how he appeared in Detective 27. I think Bill Finger being left out in the cold and dying penniless and destitute is fairly pretentious.
Or Stan Lee taking absolute credit for creating all the Marvel Universe. Don't get me wrong, the guy who comes up with the initial idea is deserving of merit, but, Kirby, Everitt, Colan, and Ditko deserve equal shares of that. Without Ditko who knows what Spidey would'a looked like. Without Kirby, the Fantastic Four might be just the Acceptible Four, and the X-Men not so Uncanny after all. And, well, OK Daredevil's tights did look like crap until issue 7. You'd think it was a blind guy that designed those or something.

[Agnew420]

Adam Warlock, Space Christ.


Nuff said!

How bout this one:
Keanu Reeves, Matrix Christ! As if someone who would save mankind could ever be that monosyllabic.

[Zack]

I think Mark Waid has written some good comics, but his admiration of the characters he writes REALLY grates on me sometimes.

I don't want to get into a Waid-bash, but I'll just say it: Radar Love in THE FLASH.

It was dramatic and entertaining the first time. Then he KEPT DOING IT OVER AND OVER. Much as Linda was a likable character, it kind of became a daytime soap opera "what keeps them apart THIS time?" type thing.

Some of it is just my disagreeing with his takes on a character, but reading some of his proposal notes in hardcover collections, it can get...his vision of Reed and Doom in FF seemed like a bizarre take on the characters. His thesis was, "Doom is a lying hypocritcical sociopath who's doing this because he's jealous and insecure about Reed, the good compassionate smartest man alive."

To me, that undermined what was fascinating about their relationship, the idea that Doom WAS good at ruling Latveria, and might even have a justification for hating Reed. Even Stan Lee said that what he liked about Dr. Doom was that Doom might have been right, that he was the person qualified to rule the world, and that made him scary. Dwayne McDuffie, in my opinion, did it much better in his recent FF special.

But Waid took it to the extent where Reed sends Doom to Hell (as Doom begs for mercy, no less), destroys him again, takes over Latveria and improves it, FIXES DOOM'S DEVICE AND GETS TO HEAVEN. Jack Kirby as God was really sweet, but damn, to me that was a pretty pretentious "how awesome IS Reed?" moment.

He truly loves these characters, but sometimes the "old-school heroes are really relevant if you think about it, and the villains are just jealous pricks who secretly WANT to be the old-school heroes" gets repetitive. And I'm kind of waffly here because he does good work with other types of stories...EMPIRE was excellent, and I'd like to see more stuff like that from him.

[Babylon23]

I have to agree that most stories where writers feature themselves in prominant roles can get pretty pretensious. Byrne's appearance in the FF Trial of Galactus issue and Morrison final issue of Animal Man come to mind. Also, any time a writer uses their fellow writers/good friends, like Paul Jenkins being used by Bendis.

However, Marville probably tops my list of most pretensious comics.

[Black Atom]

I just have to chime in on this:

John Byrne appearing at the Trial of Reed Richards, personally brought there by the Watcher. And it's not just a cameo; he's there beginning to end!

Chris Claremont and Sal Larocca show up in two occasions during their Fantastic Four run, and in one appearance, Claremont manages, somehow, to squeeze in that he's fluent in several languages during an attack by the Awesome Android.

Grant Morrison's Fantastic Four 1234. Prior to it's release, he got everyone up-in-arms by talking about how he'd explore the latent incestuous relationship between Sue and Johnny. People complained, then bought it anyway.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Grant Morrison's Fantastic Four 1234. Prior to it's release, he got everyone up-in-arms by talking about how he'd explore the latent incestuous relationship between Sue and Johnny. People complained, then bought it anyway.


Two things.


1. People are stupid and will buy anything.

2. Is it me or does Grant Morrison only bring the A game to his D.C. work?

[dougputhoff]

Secret Wars

Secret WarsII

Both of them were supposed to be great cosmic sagas, and both of them turned into badly-drawn pieces of garbage whose main purpose seemed to be selling action figures.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

How bout Bob Kane getting absolute credit for Batman. He wanted him to wear crimson and it looked nothing like how he appeared in Detective 27. I think Bill Finger being left out in the cold and dying penniless and destitute is fairly pretentious.
Or Stan Lee taking absolute credit for creating all the Marvel Universe. Don't get me wrong, the guy who comes up with the initial idea is deserving of merit, but, Kirby, Everitt, Colan, and Ditko deserve equal shares of that. Without Ditko who knows what Spidey would'a looked like. Without Kirby, the Fantastic Four might be just the Acceptible Four, and the X-Men not so Uncanny after all. And, well, OK Daredevil's tights did look like crap until issue 7. You'd think it was a blind guy that designed those or something.

Those aren't pretentious moments. They're acts of complete bastardry.

And that's why an award for excellence in comics is called the Finger Award.

But if you actually say the following:

"Bill Finger is the creator of the B word"

You will get sued.

[Cei-U!]

Or Stan Lee taking absolute credit for creating all the Marvel Universe.

Lee has never claimed absolute credit. He habitually credits his artistic co-creators in writing and in interviews, often admitting freely and unapologetically that they did the lion's share of the work. Hell, if it hadn't been for Stan repeatedly mentioning Steve Ditko, we would never have heard his name at the Spider-Man premiere. Whatever we may think of Stan's and/or Marvel's business ethics (and God knows there's plenty there to disagree with), this particular charge is bogus.

Cei-U!
The defense rests!

[suedenim]

Lee has never claimed absolute credit. He habitually credits his artistic co-creators in writing and in interviews, often admitting freely and unapologetically that they did the lion's share of the work. Hell, if it hadn't been for Stan repeatedly mentioning Steve Ditko, we would never have heard his name at the Spider-Man premiere. Whatever we may think of Stan's and/or Marvel's business ethics (and God knows there's plenty there to disagree with), this particular charge is bogus.

Cei-U!
The defense rests!

I agree - plus, as people like Mark Evanier have noted, a big problem with all the Lee-Kirby credit debates and other arguments is that both men are notorious for having extremely poor memories.

Bob Kane deserves at least a little slack (along with the legitimate criticism) too, IMO. For one thing, at the time, "studio" based credit (a carryover from the comic strip business, and still often used to this day) was the norm. The name on the work wasn't necessarily the name of the guy who wrote or drew that particular piece, just as today, for example, Jim Davis may or may not have drawn the latest Garfield comic strip, but no one else's name is gonna show up in your newspaper.

[Wild Card13]

You know what's more pretentious than Adam Warlock? Being promised that House of M would "crack the internet in half". Yeah, my internet's still intact.

[Lorendiac]

You know what's more pretentious than Adam Warlock? Being promised that House of M would "crack the internet in half". Yeah, my internet's still intact.

I haven't even read a single issue of "House of M" material yet. Maybe that's the reason I haven't noticed much cracking?

[brundlefly]

Two things.


1. People are stupid and will buy anything.

2. Is it me or does Grant Morrison only bring the A game to his D.C. work?


To follow up on that thought.....

Morrison's New X-Men. Reeked of his disdain for the title and characters and the attitude that the X-men weren't cool or hip enough until he started writing them. There were plot holes and bad characterization galore, but it had a desperate air of "this is the definitive run of this comic series" with the trolling through old concepts (genocidal humans, Shadow King (or in this case, Morrison's knockoff Cassandra Nova), Weapon X, Magneto, Days of Future Past-esque dystopian future), like they all weren't good enough previously and needed reworking from his mighty pen. Then he concluded with the ridiculous deaths of Magneto and Jean (not too cliche) and that bit with Emma & Scott over Jean's grave as though it was not just his run, but the series itself that had reached its end & there were no more stories to be told with these characters.

Now I'll completely contradict myself here by declaring my love for everything else he's written. Well, maybe not Seaguy or the aforementioned FF1234.....

[Wild Card13]

I haven't even read a single issue of "House of M" material yet.

Smart move on your part. Love what happens after the fact, hate what happens during.

[Alan2099]

The Spawn/Cerebus team up has to rank up there. The whole things is basically nothing more than "Creator owned characters are the best ever. Spawn is so much better off than any one and everyone else. Even Superman looks up to him!"

[algertman]

To follow up on that thought.....

Morrison's New X-Men. Reeked of his disdain for the title and characters and the attitude that the X-men weren't cool or hip enough until he started writing them. There were plot holes and bad characterization galore, but it had a desperate air of "this is the definitive run of this comic series" with the trolling through old concepts (genocidal humans, Shadow King (or in this case, Morrison's knockoff Cassandra Nova), Weapon X, Magneto, Days of Future Past-esque dystopian future), like they all weren't good enough previously and needed reworking from his mighty pen. Then he concluded with the ridiculous deaths of Magneto and Jean (not too cliche) and that bit with Emma & Scott over Jean's grave as though it was not just his run, but the series itself that had reached its end & there were no more stories to be told with these characters.

Now I'll completely contradict myself here by declaring my love for everything else he's written. Well, maybe not Seaguy or the aforementioned FF1234.....

Sorry, but Grant's X-Men was the best the X-Men had ever been in over 10 years. Sure he rashed the same old stories, hell, he admitted it. But that's no different than the way the X-Men have been since after Claremont's original run, and are still that way

[algertman]

I haven't even read a single issue of "House of M" material yet. Maybe that's the reason I haven't noticed much cracking?

half the mini is Wolverine standing around and repeating himself

[Wild Card13]

Why does it seem to me that Morrison never brings his A-game for any of his Marvel titles? His DC work is good, really good. But...I hated Planet X. Magneto is my favorite character in comicdom, and it took three years of pure retcon to undo all the damage he caused. And I didn't like Cassandra Nova much, either. I really hate the concept, and my hat goes off to Whedon for using her in a way that still leaves me interested despite my disdain for the character.

[Dan Apodaca]

Morrison's New X-Men. Reeked of his disdain for the title and characters and the attitude that the X-men weren't cool or hip enough until he started writing them.

You still haven't given any response as to what makes you think that. It sounds to me like you're projecting.

[brundlefly]

You still haven't given any response as to what makes you think that. It sounds to me like you're projecting.

The "motorcycle jacket" outfits (which just screamed "see, the earlier costumes were stupid and juvenile, but my new team are all sunglasses and black leather; they're so much cooler"), benching everyone except Jean, Scott, Emma, Logan, and Xavier while he stocked the series with his own creations (one of which, Phantomex, was just an admitted parody of Gambit), that horrible mischaracterization of Magneto based on some kind of personal anti-IRA business that he let spill over into his writing. And as I had stated in the earlier post, all that unnecessary tweaking of old storylines ("It's not Weapon X, it's Weapon Plus!") when I thought part of his rationale for coming on board was to help simplify and reinvigorate the X-universe, not make it more unnecessarily complicated by digging up and bloating older concepts. Previous writers had been blasted for revisiting older stories on their runs as 'unoriginal' or 'going back to the same well over and over,' but Morrison seems to get a free pass despite doing the exact same thing.

[Dan Apodaca]

The "motorcycle jacket" outfits (which just screamed "see, the earlier costumes were stupid and juvenile, but my new team are all sunglasses and black leather; they're so much cooler"),

Well, they were. You can't win the argument that spandex is cooler than leather.

benching everyone except Jean, Scott, Emma, Logan, and Xavier while he stocked the series with his own creations (one of which, Phantomex, was just an admitted parody of Gambit),

He didn't make the team any smaller than they were orginally created to be. Besides, he hardly benched anyone, he sent them off to other books to be with writers who liked the characters. What's wrong with that? If anything, he ensured that the characters he didn't want to use would still get screen-time. That's way more fan consideration than anybody else has ever given. Besides, every X-writer changes up the team when they take over the title. You might as well be pissed about the All-New, All-Different X-Men.

And Fantomex wasn't just a parody of Gambit, he was a parody of that whole collection of characters.

And you forgot Beast.

that horrible mischaracterization of Magneto based on some kind of personal anti-IRA business that he let spill over into his writing.

I've never heard anything about an anti-IRA perspective. Care to share where you get that from? I don't agree that it's a mischaracterization. Not only was Magneto junkied out on Kick the whole time (and if you've ever had a friend who succombed to drug addiction, you know that they experience drastioc changes), but his characterization was more true to Magneto's original than Claremont's retcon ever was. I mean, for Magneto to not have picked up on the inherent hypocrisy in what Claremont made him into, means he would have to be a complete and total idiot. And a hypocrite. Which means that he wasn't mischaracterized at all.

And as I had stated in the earlier post, all that unnecessary tweaking of old storylines ("It's not Weapon X, it's Weapon Plus!") when I thought part of his rationale for coming on board was to help simplify and reinvigorate the X-universe, not make it more unnecessarily complicated by digging up and bloating older concepts.

Well, yes and no. His purpose was to re-invigorate the franchise, but the streamlining was all on the ditorial side. That was a Marvel decision. By the way, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You complain about how many of his own creations he "stocked" the series with, and then here you claim that he wasn't bringing in enough new stuff and using too much older stuff. Make up your mind. And really, I don't understand how people have any trouble following the concept behind Weapon Plus.

Previous writers had been blasted for revisiting older stories on their runs as 'unoriginal' or 'going back to the same well over and over,' but Morrison seems to get a free pass despite doing the exact same thing.

Well, because we don't live in a world of black and white. There are not absolutes, and thus, things can be similar and also different. As in the case of retcons, it's not really so much about what's done, as it is how it's done. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing retcon was very radical and changed a basic fact about the character. It's widely regarded as a masterwork. But when the Punisher came back as an angel to do God's work with automatic weapons, it wasn't received well. Not because it was a major change to the character, but because it was done poorly. Morrison went back to older stories and presented them in a new way, with new ideas and opinions on them. Like Weapon Plus, for example.

[curefreak]

i didnt even think of posting on this thread till i remembered the first issue of kingdom come now that was one friggen pretentious comic.
i would love to have someone who possibley majored in philosphy or religion to explain it to me but im sure they would probably just laugh at me.

[Kirayoshi]

There's not really anything to spoil.

Each page is a splash page, each with a number from 1-32, and you can read them in the order of which they appear in the comic. Or, if you remove the staples and place the pages in order of the numbering, they form a humongous two-sided poster.

The story? Nonexistent. The art? Completely unconventional.

Beautiful? VERY.

Pretentious? Also VERY.

The pretention doesn't take away from how awesome the book and the series are, but yes, it does attract way too much extravagant attention to itself.Didn't Dave Sim do something like that once or twice on Cerebus? IIRC there was an issue that had Cerebus in some weird dream sequence, and if you were to make a mosaic of the individual pages you'd get a giant picture of Cerebus's face. Very experimental.

Pretentious, yes. But well done.

[Dan Apodaca]

Didn't Dave Sim do something like that once or twice on Cerebus? IIRC there was an issue that had Cerebus in some weird dream sequence, and if you were to make a mosaic of the individual pages you'd get a giant picture of Cerebus's face. Very experimental.

Pretentious, yes. But well done.

What's pretentious about it? It's a piece of art, no? So, what is it unsuccessfully pretending to be?

[Grizsly]

I'm beginning to think that Civil War has to be seriously in the running, for taking a half-baked premise and then comparing it to Japanese internment, slavery, and Nazi Germany.

Be fair - that's not Civil War on a whole, it's that idiot Jenkins doing the comparisons in Frontline.

Also, a little off topic - the most pretentious move on message boards is SIGNING YOUR OWN POSTS. Not sigs, but actually TYPING it out. We see your name in the post, there's no reason to be so pretentiously redundant.

I guess the only thing worse than that is signing your name IN CAPS. ;)

But back to pretentious comic moments - how about Adventures Of Superman 500, when Clark and Pa Kent are in the afterlife???

Cerebus wasn't all that pretentious, but it certainly was preachy.

And another exception for creators appearing in comics - classic assitant editors moments back in the day from Marvel. Always funny.

[scratchie]

Be fair - that's not Civil War on a whole, it's that idiot Jenkins doing the comparisons in Frontline.The rest of Civil War has been rife with equally unsubtle comparisons. JMS used the "We're just following orders" line twice (once in Spider-Man, once in FF) and New Avengers had Luke Cage comparing it to slavery and lynching.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Because I have to drag myself kicking and screaming...I mean literally drag myself...through Civil War and it's offshoots, the feeling I get from it isn't that it's not pretentious...it's just awful.

Things can be just awful...can't they?

[Grizsly]

The rest of Civil War has been rife with equally unsubtle comparisons. JMS used the "We're just following orders" line twice (once in Spider-Man, once in FF) and New Avengers had Luke Cage comparing it to slavery and lynching.

True - this whole series has the potential to become a complete pretentious mess.

But the scenes Jenkins is doing are above and beyond, in my opinion.

[dancj]

Also, a little off topic - the most pretentious move on message boards is SIGNING YOUR OWN POSTS. Not sigs, but actually TYPING it out. We see your name in the post, there's no reason to be so pretentiously redundant.

You could argue that it's redundant, but I can't see it in any way as pretentious

Dan

[curefreak]

i dont find it pretensious for an artist or writer to put themselves in theyre own comics tho it might be a little conceited.
i think its nice to see what they look like and maybe how they see themselves.

[hangmanjury]

Sometimes when a creator puts himself in the comic, it's much fun, like when Kurt Busiek and George Perez put themselves in an issue of Avengers once.

It's when they make it all metaphysical and using themselves as analogues for God that annoy me. Not so much because it churns out bad stories, but that it's such a trite idea that always, always feels like cheating.

[curefreak]

i want to say (and i know i'll get attacked for this) that watchmen to me had some deep deep moments of pretentiousness i mean a comic within a comic? how metaphorical do you really wanna get in these things alan moore? i think watchmen suffered from too many ideals and not enough action personally.

[brundlefly]

Sometimes when a creator puts himself in the comic, it's much fun, like when Kurt Busiek and George Perez put themselves in an issue of Avengers once.

Done for laughs it can be funny, particularly when they're making fun of themselves and it doesn't take you out of the story. I liked the goofy Kurt/George cameo during a light moment in AVENGERS.


It's when they make it all metaphysical and using themselves as analogues for God that annoy me. Not so much because it churns out bad stories, but that it's such a trite idea that always, always feels like cheating.

Much agreed. Best example is the conclusion of ANIMAL MAN's "Deus Ex Machina," the poster child for "writers, please don't write yourselves into your stories." Morrison appearing as a too-cool, black trenchcoated, smug know-it-all God who rolls his eyes at previous and future comics writers and comics in general. I really like his ANIMAL MAN run & it's playing with the fourth wall, up until that scene. Just pretentious ego-stroking for its own sake.

[hangmanjury]

i want to say (and i know i'll get attacked for this) that watchmen to me had some deep deep moments of pretentiousness i mean a comic within a comic? how metaphorical do you really wanna get in these things alan moore? i think watchmen suffered from too many ideals and not enough action personally.
Say what you will, but I loved that pirate comic and appreciated that someone took the time to isolate it in its entirety recently.

And I think there was a whole lot of action, cutting edge ones at that. The scene where Rorschach chops a dog's head in half or pours cooking fat over some dude may seem tame now in comparison to, oh, say, Preacher, but it's still damn effective.

To me, there wasn't a single thing - not a thing - in Watchmen that was out of place.

[curefreak]

Say what you will, but I loved that pirate comic and appreciated that someone took the time to isolate it in its entirety recently.

And I think there was a whole lot of action, cutting edge ones at that. The scene where Rorschach chops a dog's head in half or pours cooking fat over some dude may seem tame now in comparison to, oh, say, Preacher, but it's still damn effective.

To me, there wasn't a single thing - not a thing - in Watchmen that was out of place.
i didnt like the dog killing that was completly unnecessary:mad:

[hangmanjury]

How so? It was the symbol for Rorschach's descent into the abyss. You needed to go really extreme.

[curefreak]

How so? It was the symbol for Rorschach's descent into the abyss. You needed to go really extreme.
well i happen to be an animal lover and i think it was sick and wrong and theres plenty of other ways to show his "descent into the abyss".

[The Mirrorball Man]

well i happen to be an animal lover and i think it was sick and wrong and theres plenty of other ways to show his "descent into the abyss".
Don't forget all the trees that had to be cut down to make paper in order to print "Watchmen"!

[hangmanjury]

well i happen to be an animal lover and i think it was sick and wrong and theres plenty of other ways to show his "descent into the abyss".
Well... yes. It WAS sick and wrong. That's the point.

[scratchie]

Things can be just awful...can't they?Sure. But Civil War is definitely both.

[scratchie]

i want to say (and i know i'll get attacked for this) that watchmen to me had some deep deep moments of pretentiousness i mean a comic within a comic? how metaphorical do you really wanna get in these things alan moore? i think watchmen suffered from too many ideals and not enough action personally.Well if you want to put it that way, the entire idea of Watchmen was pretentious, because it attempted to write a comic book like real literature. But fortunately, the quality of the work was high enough to justify the pretentions.

I mean, there's pretentious and there's pretentious. Literally, the word simply means that the work in question makes a pretense to high art. But in general usage, the implication is that the pretense is unwarranted. In the case of Watchmen, most people agree that the quality of the work is extremely high. So while the pirate comic may be literally "pretentious", it works as a standard literary device in the context of the storyline by commenting on and enhancing our understanding of the main action in the book.

If you want to criticize any attempt to be "literary" as "pretentiousness", then the ultimate moment of comic book pretentiousness was when Stan Lee decided to start writing super-hero characters as real people rather than the cardboard cutouts that DC was using at the time.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Well if you want to put it that way, the entire idea of Watchmen was pretentious, because it attempted to write a comic book like real literature.
If you're saying that comics are not "real literature", I agree. For that matter, neither is sculpture. Literature is literature, sculpture is sculpture, comics are comics. Some of them are good, some of them are bad, some of them are pretentious, some of them are not.

[curefreak]

Well if you want to put it that way, the entire idea of Watchmen was pretentious, because it attempted to write a comic book like real literature. But fortunately, the quality of the work was high enough to justify the pretentions.

I mean, there's pretentious and there's pretentious. Literally, the word simply means that the work in question makes a pretense to high art. But in general usage, the implication is that the pretense is unwarranted. In the case of Watchmen, most people agree that the quality of the work is extremely high. So while the pirate comic may be literally "pretentious", it works as a standard literary device in the context of the storyline by commenting on and enhancing our understanding of the main action in the book.

If you want to criticize any attempt to be "literary" as "pretentiousness", then the ultimate moment of comic book pretentiousness was when Stan Lee decided to start writing super-hero characters as real people rather than the cardboard cutouts that DC was using at the time.but thats taking things a bit too far.
even tho comics are trying to hard sometimes to be too literary and i think it shows an embarrasment in the pulpyness of its roots sometimes.

[hangmanjury]

Maybe, but not in Watchmen. Watchmen was a celebration of those roots, more than anything else.

[hangmanjury]

If you're saying that comics are not "real literature", I agree. For that matter, neither is sculpture. Literature is literature, sculpture is sculpture, comics are comics. Some of them are good, some of them are bad, some of them are pretentious, some of them are not.
Hold on, you're treading murky territory here. Sculpture is sculpture, paintings are paintings, comics are comics, and novels are novels. These are true.

"Art" and "Literature" have more subjective meanings. To me, literature is anything that conveys a story using text, while art conveys an idea using sculpture, drawings, or paintings.

So, uh, I guess, to me, comics are both.

[The Mirrorball Man]

To me, literature is anything that conveys a story using text
I agree, and though I realize it's controversial, I don't believe that that's what comics are doing.

while art conveys an idea using sculpture, drawings, or paintings.
What about recording artists?

[hangmanjury]

I agree, and though I realize it's controversial, I don't believe that that's what comics are doing.

In your opinion, then, what are comics doing? They tell stories, don't they?

What about recording artists?

I've never referred to songs as art, I now realize. They've always been "artistic" or "poetic", thatis, having the elements of art or poetry in them, but not actually being art or poetry in and of itself. (Although, I guess poetic lyrics just printed on paper or spoken aloud can be poetry.)

What do we call songs, then, that are the musical equivalent of art and literature? I dunno, good songs?

[BoosterBronze]

Great thread.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that civil War: Frontlines (#2?) where it compared Iron Man to Julius Caesar ws really good, because it DID fit with the story (the act that takes tensions and turns them into a war) and it also gave
some insight into how Iron man sees himself.

that being said, i agree the other Frontline peieces are pretty crummy.

[The Mirrorball Man]

In your opinion, then, what are comics doing? They tell stories, don't they?
I'm a straight McCloudian, so I can only answer that by saying "sometimes".

What do we call songs, then, that are the musical equivalent of art and literature? I dunno, good songs?
I can't answer that, because for me "art" and "literature" are not quality labels at all, there can be bad art and bad literature. So songs are songs, and yes, they're definitely "art".

[hangmanjury]

I'm a straight McCloudian, so I can only answer that by saying "sometimes".


I can't answer that, because for me "art" and "literature" are not quality labels at all, there can be bad art and bad literature. So songs are songs, and yes, they're definitely "art".
I see that our conflict is a semantic one and will probably not be resolved via an argument, then, since chances are we believe the same things but define them differently.

[dancj]

well i happen to be an animal lover and i think it was sick and wrong and theres plenty of other ways to show his "descent into the abyss".

It was only a fictional dog in a story - and it was a good way of showing his descent

[dancj]

Much agreed. Best example is the conclusion of ANIMAL MAN's "Deus Ex Machina," the poster child for "writers, please don't write yourselves into your stories." Morrison appearing as a too-cool, black trenchcoated, smug know-it-all God who rolls his eyes at previous and future comics writers and comics in general. I really like his ANIMAL MAN run & it's playing with the fourth wall, up until that scene. Just pretentious ego-stroking for its own sake.

That issue of Animal Man was really the only logical conclusion to the fantastic story that Morrison was telling - and without it you wouldn't have been able to have the ending which brought a tear to my eye

[The Mirrorball Man]

I see that our conflict is a semantic one and will probably not be resolved via an argument, then, since chances are we believe the same things but define them differently.
I totally agree, although I wouldn't call it a "conflict". :D

[hangmanjury]

I totally agree, although I wouldn't call it a "conflict". :D
I disagree, a conflict, to me anyway, is when something.....

[suedenim]

That issue of Animal Man was really the only logical conclusion to the fantastic story that Morrison was telling - and without it you wouldn't have been able to have the ending which brought a tear to my eye

Yeah, I thought it was perfect for the story.

But almost as perfect was Grant Morrison actually joining the Suicide Squad and getting killed off on a mission! :)

[brundlefly]

That issue of Animal Man was really the only logical conclusion to the fantastic story that Morrison was telling - and without it you wouldn't have been able to have the ending which brought a tear to my eye

Eh, my mental eye-roll has more do with his pretentious stylistic depiction of himself and his snide asides about the medium (and essentially any comics writer other than himself) than the whole "writer appears in the story to speak to the main character" concept itself, which I agree fit into the context of the story itself and worked for the ending. It was the way he did it, not that he did it, that was pretentious and full of himself.

[yeoman]

John Byrne appearing at the Trial of Reed Richards, personally brought there by the Watcher. And it's not just a cameo; he's there beginning to end!


I dunno, I always kind aliked that one. Granted, the Trial of Galactus would likely be much stronger with him not there at the end.