Russia Goes To Hell

[Dennis K]

"Vladimir Putin is quashing freedoms, stifling opposition, bullying neighbours, ecnouraging Iran, promising an arms race and threatening a new Cold War."


Anyone care to guess where this quote is taken from?

[BlairH]

The May issue of Macleans magazine.

[Dennis K]

Ding! We have a winner!


Haven't finished it, but it has been an interesting read so far.

[Dreadstar]

Scientific American?

[Lubichev]

That seems to be the typical actions of a Russian with an ego trip. We may be big, but that is about all we are.

[Noah Johnson]

Gee whiz, and Bush liked him so much. He looked into Putin's soul, you know.

It's almost enough to shake your faith in Bush's judgement.

Then again, Bush has also done more or less everything on that list, so maybe that was the meeting of the minds.

Does anyone else get the impression that Russia is just kind of more comfortable with authoritarianism?

[Forefinger]

"Vladimir Putin is quashing freedoms, stifling opposition, bullying neighbours, ecnouraging Iran, promising an arms race and threatening a new Cold War."


Anyone care to guess where this quote is taken from?
Penthouse Letters?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Does anyone else get the impression that Russia is just kind of more comfortable with authoritarianism?


Given the trends many younger Russians are showing toward communist nostalgia and commie chic in recent years, I'd have to say yeah, you're probably right there.

[Iangould]

Gee whiz, and Bush liked him so much. He looked into Putin's soul, you know.


They prayed together. Then George went off and invaded Iraq and Vladimir went back to exterminating the Chechens.

[Iangould]

Given the trends many younger Russians are showing toward communist nostalgia and commie chic in recent years, I'd have to say yeah, you're probably right there.

It's the Neo-nazi chic that really concerns me - especially considering that the Nazis killed something like 50 million Russians.

[Iangould]

Does anyone else get the impression that Russia is just kind of more comfortable with authoritarianism?

I assume you're familiar with the various theories about the historic root of Russian authoritarianism?

Mind you, twenty years ago we were hearing the same thing about Asians.

[Dreadstar]

It's the Neo-nazi chic that really concerns me - especially considering that the Nazis killed something like 50 million Russians.

Yeah, but they were damned snappy dressers.

[Slam_Bradley]

Does anyone else get the impression that Russia is just kind of more comfortable with authoritarianism?


Given that Russia has no real history of democratic rule, this shouldn't be to surprising.

[Mike Smith]

I bet glasnost and perestroika are looking pretty glamorous about now.

[Iangould]

Given that Russia has no real history of democratic rule, this shouldn't be to surprising.

It took most western countries hundreds of years to acheive stable democratic government. It's taken countries like Taiwan and South Korea fifty years.

We shouldn't be too surprised if Russia (or Iraq or the average African nation) stumbles occasionally along the way.

[cactusmaac]

Yeah but the other Iron Curtain nations - apart from Belarus - have made the democracy transition pretty successfully.

Russia's regressing from the Yeltsin days and seeing more and more state concentration of power with little indication of an Orange revolution or the protests which accompanied the 1991 coup.

[Alex]

Gee whiz, and Bush liked him so much. He looked into Putin's soul, you know.

It's almost enough to shake your faith in Bush's judgement.

Then again, Bush has also done more or less everything on that list, so maybe that was the meeting of the minds.

If someone did a thread about how Spain has a problem with illegal dog fighting (That's totaly made up by the way, as far as i know, Spain loves dogs), would you open your response with three sentences about Bush doing coke?

[Adam Crocker]

Yeah but the other Iron Curtain nations - apart from Belarus - have made the democracy transition pretty successfully.


When Ian first brought this up I started thinking about pre-Soviet Russian history and how Russia was relatively late in developing a central monarchy as well as sloughing off feudalism and developing a market economy, even before WWI. I suppose it would be worth looking at Belarus' history compared to Russia as well as its economic and political situation (including to what degree the economy and politics are dominated by oligarchs as in Russia).

[Noah Johnson]

If someone did a thread about how Spain has a problem with illegal dog fighting (That's totaly made up by the way, as far as i know, Spain loves dogs), would you open your response with three sentences about Bush doing coke?
Can you see the difference in relevance between what I posted and the example you gave?

[Shellhead]

If someone did a thread about how Spain has a problem with illegal dog fighting (That's totaly made up by the way, as far as i know, Spain loves dogs), would you open your response with three sentences about Bush doing coke?

No. But if Bush met some guy and proclaimed him to be a great animal-lover, and then that guy turned out to be the ringleader of the illegal dog-fighting operation... yeah, I would mention that.

[fly on the wall]

Gee whiz, and Bush liked him so much. He looked into Putin's soul, you know.

It's almost enough to shake your faith in Bush's judgement.

Then again, Bush has also done more or less everything on that list, so maybe that was the meeting of the minds.

Does anyone else get the impression that Russia is just kind of more comfortable with authoritarianism?

Bush is a dirty soul-looker.

[Iangould]

When Ian first brought this up I started thinking about pre-Soviet Russian history and how Russia was relatively late in developing a central monarchy as well as sloughing off feudalism and developing a market economy, even before WWI. I suppose it would be worth looking at Belarus' history compared to Russia as well as its economic and political situation (including to what degree the economy and politics are dominated by oligarchs as in Russia).

Well Belarus didn't really have a separate history except for a couple of centuries back in the dark ages. They were absorbed by Muscovy pretty early on.

Add to that list, Russia's isolation from western Europe; their centuries of domination by the mongols and tartars which left them with a seige mentality and a persecution complex; the Tsar's status as protector of the serfs from their feudal masters which encouraged the people to look to Moscow for the solution to their problems (the other altenrative was to run away and join the Cossacks - guess who was the sponsor of the Cossacks and their defender agaisnt the nobility?) and the bizarre interaction between the fact there was no reformation and therefore no development of the concept that religious diversity was acceptable and Ivan the Terrible's reduction of the Russian Orthodox Church into something approaching an arm of government.

[ragnarok_2012]

If someone did a thread about how Spain has a problem with illegal dog fighting (That's totaly made up by the way, as far as i know, Spain loves dogs), would you open your response with three sentences about Bush doing coke?

I think it's a fair & relevant tangent, Alex.

Russia doesn't really have a lot of history with freedom, though it produced a couple of VERY famous anarchists in the 19th century (Tolstoy & Kropotkin). But I think that when the KGB disintegrated they mostly turned to organized crime. Organized crime has always been a great justification for giving the state unfettered power.

I remember seeing Yeltsin's last speech before giving power to Putin. Just looking at his body language, I got the distinct feeling that he didn't like the direction things were going in.

Question: does anybody know how strong a relationship that Russia government currently has with the US government? I really haven't heard anything about that in a few years now.

[BlairH]

Question: does anybody know how strong a relationship that Russia government currently has with the US government? I really haven't heard anything about that in a few years now.
It's fairly strong. Condi Rice occasionally criticises the Russians for sliding towards a centralisation of power, but other than that, it's fairly peachy as far as East/West relations usually go.

To be honest, I -personally- never really got into the whole "Russia is our friend now" thing.

[Iangould]

It's fairly strong. Condi Rice occasionally criticises the Russians for sliding towards a centralisation of power, but other than that, it's fairly peachy as far as East/West relations usually go.

To be honest, I -personally- never really got into the whole "Russia is our friend now" thing.

Not really.

Putin is rebuilding Russia's military; accusing the west of staging coups in neighbouring countries like Ukraine; opposed the war in Iraq and is selling Iran any weapons and military technology he can.

A big reason the Soviet Union fell when it did was the collapse in oil prices in the 1980's. Now the oil price is back up; Russia's economy is doing okay and (far more importantly to Putin than the economic wellbeing of the average Russian), the Russian treasury is rolling in cash.

Putin no longer sees the need to pretend to support democracy in exchange for western handouts.

Against that all you have is his and George's shared enthusiasm for praying and killing muslims.

[Citizen V]

Far from it,it looks more like "America goes to hell".

[BlairH]

Far from it,it looks more like "America goes to hell".

Many Russians are currently envying your ability to say that.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

lol it's finny cause i moved from russia 3 years ago

[Drew Van T.]

accusing the west of staging coups in neighbouring countries like Ukraine

Well, he's not entirely wrong on that count. Lots of the things America has been doing entirely of its own volition and initiative on Russia's borders - all the brand new military bases they now have in former Soviet states, the oil games, etc. - look very much like an encirclement strategy, even from the outside. The Neoconservative view of Russia is basically one that refuses to believe they are not an enemy, no matter what Russia does.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that if you keep treating someone as an enemy, they might be more inclinced to start acting as one.

While Dubya was praying with Putin, there were probably neoconservative aides in the background pulling their hair out in frustration.

Putin is an autocratic asshole, but he's made one or two positive decisions. He was right to at least talk to the newly-elected Hamas when the West wouldn't (proving that he's not the only one who treats democracy like his bitch whenever democracy is inconvenient). He was right to (effectively) renationalize the oil industry (because some things shouldn't be left at the mercy of the free market, certainly not when the latter is run by rapacious oil barons).

[Drew Van T.]

double, ignore