London "terrorists" innocent?

[Iangould]

Senior counter-terrorism officials now believe that the intelligence that led to the raid on a family house last Friday in a search for a chemical device about to be used to attack Britain was wrong, the Guardian has learned.

Counter-terrorism officials were under pressure last night after days of meticulous search of the house in east London failed to produce anything to link the two men they arrested to a chemical plot. But a senior police officer said they had been left with "no choice" but to force entry into the house because there was specific intelligence of a threat to public safety.

One official, with knowledge why police acted and what had been found from days of searching, said the intelligence had been acted on correctly, but added last night: "There is no viable device at that house. There is no device being constructed, or chemicals. There does not appear to be anything there or anywhere else."

As lawyers for the two arrested men continued to protest their innocence, it emerged that the man who had passed the specific information that led to the raid in which a man was shot last Friday was a police informant who had been providing intelligence about the activities of alleged Islamist militants for several weeks.
...
It is understood that attempts to corroborate the information were not made because of the perceived need to act quickly. "If there was an immediate risk to public safety, there would not have been time to bug the house," an intelligence source said. A counter-terrorism official said: "If the intelligence was right there was a serious risk to the public. We did not know if it was right or not until we went in." Another official added: "Intelligence is patchy. Even if it suggests a 5% likelihood of something nasty, we can't take that risk".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1791110,00.html

So acting on the unsupported word of a paid informer. British police force their way into a home and shoot an unarmed man.

Somehow I'm willing to bet this will attract far less media attention than the initial claims of a major anti-terrorism success and a "dirty chemical bomb" (whatever the hell than means).

[Zombienorthstar]

Senior counter-terrorism officials now believe that the intelligence that led to the raid on a family house last Friday in a search for a chemical device about to be used to attack Britain was wrong, the Guardian has learned.

Counter-terrorism officials were under pressure last night after days of meticulous search of the house in east London failed to produce anything to link the two men they arrested to a chemical plot. But a senior police officer said they had been left with "no choice" but to force entry into the house because there was specific intelligence of a threat to public safety.

One official, with knowledge why police acted and what had been found from days of searching, said the intelligence had been acted on correctly, but added last night: "There is no viable device at that house. There is no device being constructed, or chemicals. There does not appear to be anything there or anywhere else."

As lawyers for the two arrested men continued to protest their innocence, it emerged that the man who had passed the specific information that led to the raid in which a man was shot last Friday was a police informant who had been providing intelligence about the activities of alleged Islamist militants for several weeks.
...
It is understood that attempts to corroborate the information were not made because of the perceived need to act quickly. "If there was an immediate risk to public safety, there would not have been time to bug the house," an intelligence source said. A counter-terrorism official said: "If the intelligence was right there was a serious risk to the public. We did not know if it was right or not until we went in." Another official added: "Intelligence is patchy. Even if it suggests a 5% likelihood of something nasty, we can't take that risk".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1791110,00.html

So acting on the unsupported word of a paid informer. British police force their way into a home and shoot an unarmed man.

Somehow I'm willing to bet this will attract far less media attention than the initial claims of a major anti-terrorism success and a "dirty chemical bomb" (whatever the hell than means).


Actually its on the first six pages of every newspaper...

Not that im defending the police just thought you might like to know.

[Paul McEnery]

Brixtonfuckingriots.

Do I have to spell this shit out?

[atoningunifex]

Brixtonfuckingriots.

Do I have to spell this shit out?

Yes, yes you do. And don't forget to say this shit both before and after you spell it out.

"Pauly McE and the Bee"

[ocelotrevs]

Anyone with half a brain could've told them that 250 officers were not needed to raid a single house.

This is the 2nd time that an innocent has been shot up by the police, last time the man didn't live.

[BlairH]

"dirty chemical bomb" (whatever the hell than means).
It works similarly to a radiological dirty bomb, except instead of using regular explosives to spread used nuclear material, it uses regular explosives to spread chemical refuse.

[Iangould]

It works similarly to a radiological dirty bomb, except instead of using regular explosives to spread used nuclear material, it uses regular explosives to spread chemical refuse.

And like the radiological dirty bomb it seems to exist only in the minds of tabloid reporters and spies with overactive imaginations keen to add a zero to the end of next year's budget.

[Iangould]

Actually its on the first six pages of every newspaper...

Not that im defending the police just thought you might like to know.

In the UK possibly, in the rest of the English-speaking world it seems to have been buried by the even more sensational Canadian terrorism raid which seem to be almost as dubious.

[king mob]

Anyone with half a brain could've told them that 250 officers were not needed to raid a single house.

This is the 2nd time that an innocent has been shot up by the police, last time the man didn't live.


Well the CPS have said that Ian Blair could well face prosecution over the DeMenezes case.

[Dreadstar]

In the UK possibly, in the rest of the English-speaking world it seems to have been buried by the even more sensational Canadian terrorism raid which seem to be almost as dubious.

The Canadian raid is "dubious?" How so?

I'm kinda thinking that if you don't have a pretty big farm, 3 tons of ammonium nitrate seems pretty suspicious.

[Iangould]

Except they apparently didn't *have* three tons of ammonia nitrate.

The actual allegation is more along the lines that they wanted to or intended to buy three tons.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149460818253&call_pageid=970599119419

The anti-terrorism task force was careful about the wording of its news release, saying that the group "took steps to acquire" the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a popular fertilizer used to make bombs. As well, they laid out selected evidence for the photographers and TV crews, showing only "sample" bags of ammonium nitrate.

...

Inside, lawyer Rocco Galati, representing two suspects, complained to Farnum about the leg irons and armed officers in the courtroom, adding: "I do not feel safe with an automatic weapon facing in my direction."

Police evidence was carefully chosen for the news conference, held at the Toronto Congress Centre by the RCMP-led National Security Enforcement Team.

The chief speaker was RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell, and lined up behind him were chiefs of police from Toronto, York, Durham and Peel regions, as well as representatives from the Ontario Provincial Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

"When I saw all that brass lined up with every cop in southern Ontario and Canada telling us what a wonderful job they had done, I thought it was like an awards show," said Fox. "Everybody will tell you it's standard but they are all working to influence the public."

He had questions, as did Jacobs, about exactly how three tonnes of ammonium nitrate were "acquired" by the suspects. The Star has learned that when investigators monitoring the men found out about the alleged purchase of the fertilizer, they intervened before delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance.

For all we know, one of the suspects bought a bag of ammonium nitrate to use on his garden and a police informer when asked said "Oh yeah, I heard them say thay want to buy three tonnes of it."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149630613356&call_pageid=1149329604487&col=1149329604479


If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones. At least that seems to be the picture that is slowly emerging of the 17 men and boys charged this week under Canada's anti-terror laws.

Their so-called training camp turns out to have been a swath of bush near Washago, where their activities — shooting off firearms and playing paintball — were so obvious and so irritating that local residents immediately called police.

Serious terrorists, like Osama bin Laden, base their operations in remote areas where no one will bother them. These suspects, it is alleged, simply trespassed on someone's farm and, when the owner told them to leave, gave him lip.

Serious terrorists, like the 19 who attacked New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, try to avoid making waves. They try to blend in.

The young men charged this week apparently didn't bother with this kind of tradecraft. They apparently didn't realize, or perhaps didn't care, that large groups of brown-skinned urbanites dressed in camouflage are not a common sight in rural central Ontario.

So when local resident Mike Côté came upon a group of just such men near his Ramara Township farm last December, he immediately informed police.

As he told the Star this week, the group appeared cold, wet and bedraggled. Some had fallen though the thin ice into a marsh. The leader of these alleged terrorists was so disgusted with his young charges that he complained to Côté about their incompetence.

These, apparently, were the conspirators. One, a former army reservist, allegedly wanted to cut off Prime Minister Stephen Harper's head. How would he find it?

It appears that a good many knew the police were on to these suspects. Harper knew. So did Toronto Mayor David Miller. So did some of the suspects' neighbours. So did many near the ill-fated Ramara Township "training camp," who told the Star later that police asked them to keep their mouths shut.

But the alleged terrorists, it seems, remained blissfully ignorant. They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.

According to police, suspects happily took possession of the "fertilizer" when it was delivered, not realizing that the RCMP had substituted harmless white powder in its stead.

But then that seems to be the history of this group. For militant terrorists, if that's what they are, they are remarkably naïve.

Some, it appears, chatted openly online about their paramilitary exploits at websites such as the now-dismantled http://www.shaheed.ca, oblivious to the fact that the RCMP and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service regularly troll such sites.

"I got my gun and tomorrow in the morning I am gonna do some target practise (sic) inshAllah (God willing) hott," reads one 2003 posting. "Checked out some paintball guns today at walmart."

Shaheed, the Arabic word for witness, is often used to refer to someone who has died defending Islam — including suicide bombers. It's not a terribly subtle title for a radical Islamic website. But then not all of the postings on http://www.shaheed.ca were radical or even devout.

"Man, ppl always say the Ummah (community of Islam) is so weak blah blah," reads one 2004 posting. "What ummah? I don't believe that there's 2 billion or whatever muslims in the world....It sux."

"Alhumdulilah (thank God) today was the first successful day of work," reads another 2004 posting. "What a great day it was. Sure we were late, but it's far. But Alhumdulilah, the boss is really nice. ... After that we went for pizza."

This is not quite the image that the government and police are portraying of the 17. They paint the suspects as part of an efficiently sinister conspiracy devoted, in Harper's words, to destroying "freedom, democracy and the rule of law."

As such, the arrests last week come at convenient time for the Harper government. A rise in the public's fear quotient could increase popular support for his decision to keep Canadian troops in Afghanistan another two years to wage war against Taliban and other insurgents.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149630613353&call_pageid=1149329604487&col=1149329604479


Three tonnes of ammonium nitrate could easily be stacked in the corner of a one-car garage and cost as little as $750, but the product is not readily available to non-farmers, agriculture groups say.
...
For anyone except a commercial farmer, however, ammonium nitrate fertilizer is not easy to buy, MacQuarrie said from his Winnipeg office.

The country's two manufacturers last year decided voluntarily, for security reasons, to stop making the product, he said, referring to Agrium and the J.R. Simplot Company of Brandon, Man.
...
Some western farmers might still be using old stock and eastern vegetable farmers might still find ammonium nitrate profitable to import, MacQuarrie said. But most farmers have switched to other fertilizers.

Garden centres don't carry the product except in a blended form.

"You can't walk into Home Depot and buy ammonium nitrate," said Susan Sykes, spokeswoman for the Canadian Fertilizer Institute in Ottawa.

[Dreadstar]

So, let me see if I can get my head around it.

They ordered 3 tons of ammonium nitrate, and authorities became alarmed and switched their delivery to 3 tons of something harmless instead. Is that about right?

[Iangould]

So, let me see if I can get my head around it.

They ordered 3 tons of ammonium nitrate, and authorities became alarmed and switched their delivery to 3 tons of something harmless instead. Is that about right?

The authorities claim they ordered three tonnes - or were going to order three tonnes - or something.

[Dreadstar]

The authorities claim they ordered three tonnes - or were going to order three tonnes - or something.

Sounds pretty clear from what I read in the artical you quoted.

"They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.

According to police, suspects happily took possession of the "fertilizer" when it was delivered, not realizing that the RCMP had substituted harmless white powder in its stead."

[Iangould]

Sounds pretty clear from what I read in the artical you quoted.

"They let themselves get snared in an RCMP sting when one of the 17 allegedly placed an order for three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a substance that can be used to make bombs.

According to police, suspects happily took possession of the "fertilizer" when it was delivered, not realizing that the RCMP had substituted harmless white powder in its stead."

Note the word "allegedly".

Note too that if there are three tonnes of ammonia nitrate (or ammonia nitrate substitute) sitting in a shed somewhere the RCMP seem surprisingly reluctant to provide photoes of it.

[Dreadstar]

Note the word "allegedly".

Note too that if there are three tonnes of ammonia nitrate (or ammonia nitrate substitute) sitting in a shed somewhere the RCMP seem surprisingly reluctant to provide photoes of it.



......mmmmmmmkay.....



backs away slowly...

[Iangould]

I'm sure the claims will be every bit as valid as the claims about the guys in London and their chemical bomb.

I've written government press releases I can tell when they're trying to imply something they know might not be true.

So, do you want to tell me why we're getting a mass of photoes of the suspects; their houses; thier guns etc. but not a single one of the alleged "smoking gun" evidence at the heart of the case against them?

[Dreadstar]

So, do you want to tell me why we're getting a mass of photoes of the suspects; their houses; their guns etc. but not a single one of the alleged "smoking gun" evidence at the heart of the case against them?


Because they delivered 3 tons of "harmless white powder?"

"Allegedly" is simply a word meaning "we aren't ready to release the facts yet" from the authority side and "we don't have the facts yet" from the media side.

I see absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that 3 tons of fertilizer was *not* ordered and the person(s) ordering it did *not* believe they had taken possesion of their intended order.

[BlairH]

There's a lot to be said for excercising restraint over releasing too much facts early:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-12947/Gfx/Roswell-1947.1.gif

[Dreadstar]

Well Blair, if you don't have facts, manufacture some.

[Iangould]

Because they delivered 3 tons of "harmless white powder?"

"Allegedly" is simply a word meaning "we aren't ready to release the facts yet" from the authority side and "we don't have the facts yet" from the media side.

I see absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that 3 tons of fertilizer was *not* ordered and the person(s) ordering it did *not* believe they had taken possesion of their intended order.

And they don't have pictures of those three tons of harmless white powder because?

[Dreadstar]

And they don't have pictures of those three tons of harmless white powder because?


Because they knew it would make you paranoid.

[Iangould]

Because they knew it would make you paranoid.

I worked for the Borbridge government. I don't need paranoia.

[BlairH]

For some strange perverted reason I'm having a good laugh at the thread title. One could put a right wing bias on it just by shifting the position of your quotation marks.

[Charles RB]

So acting on the unsupported word of a paid informer. British police force their way into a home and shoot an unarmed man.

We shot an unarmed man again? This is getting bloody daft.

[BlairH]

We shot an unarmed man again? This is getting bloody daft.

"We" are not the police. You are required by law to refer to them as they. Where is your regulation tinfoil hat citizen?

[warspite1805]

We shot an unarmed man again? This is getting bloody daft.

He shouldn't have fled, it is not prident to run from armed police officers.

[Charles RB]

He shouldn't have fled

Armed guys had just burst into his house. Many people would run like bloody heck if that happened (or freeze and pee themselves) based on the "ARG SCARY MEN WITH GUNS!" instinct, not logically think "oh, hang on, it's the police, we can clear this up".

[Drew Van T.]

Armed guys had just burst into his house. Many people would run like bloody heck if that happened (or freeze and pee themselves) based on the "ARG SCARY MEN WITH GUNS!" instinct, not logically think "oh, hang on, it's the police, we can clear this up".

Especially when you know that unarmed civilians have been shot in the head before - not too long ago. The first thing that kicks in at such a time is not the logical mental reasoning that flight constitutes a risk in and of itself. The first thing that kicks is the "fight-or-flight" hormones that are hardwired into our nervous systems. And in this case the "Fight" hormones don't even get a say.

[Iangould]

He shouldn't have fled, it is not prident to run from armed police officers.

I haven't seen any detailed accounts of how he came to be shot.

Do we know for a fact he fled?

For all I know (and I'm happy to be corrected) the police burst in while he was cooking breakfast and shot him because someone saw a metal object in his hand and assumed it was a weapon and not a spatula.

[Charles RB]

Especially when you know that unarmed civilians have been shot in the head before - not too long ago.

And then the higher-ups lied about the circumstances in which he was shot to cover up the incompetence of the officers involved. That's the really worrying bit.

[Paul McEnery]

I haven't seen any detailed accounts of how he came to be shot.

Do we know for a fact he fled?

For all I know (and I'm happy to be corrected) the police burst in while he was cooking breakfast and shot him because someone saw a metal object in his hand and assumed it was a weapon and not a spatula.
Fine time to come back in and expand on the Brixton riots.

Racist police force.

Looking for an armed robber.

Shoot his Mum.

Bingo: riots.

It would be a really good thing if the police would get their act together.

[Charles RB]

It would be a really good thing if the police would get their act together.

Most of the time they have got their act together, in the sense that they don't often shoot unarmed people. For some reason, anti-terrorism is causing them to suck more than usual.

[Samurai]

He shouldn't have fled, it is not prident to run from armed police officers.
It was London, England... he probably thought they were unarmed Bobbies who'll just blow their whistle and shout "Stop, or I'll say stop again!"

[Charles RB]

It was London, England... he probably thought they were unarmed Bobbies who'll just blow their whistle and shout "Stop, or I'll say stop again!"

This may be an amazing thing to discover, but Britain has police marksmen.

[king mob]

He shouldn't have fled, it is not prident to run from armed police officers.


You are Sir Ian Blair and i claim my five pounds.


The "he ran" thing was a myth spread by the Met to cover their own arse, he didn't. He walked to his train, sat down, was pinned down by the police and shot 7 times in the head.

[warspite1805]

And then the higher-ups lied about the circumstances in which he was shot to cover up the incompetence of the officers involved. That's the really worrying bit.

Not only that, the coppers from what i can gather was really shitty shots anmd their radioes do not work in the underground. I really dfon't like the way we have to trust the police to protect us when they demonstrate such levels of incompetence and corruption, I trust the likes of Blair with guns more than I trust the police with them.

[warspite1805]

You are Sir Ian Blair and i claim my five pounds.


The "he ran" thing was a myth spread by the Met to cover their own arse, he didn't. He walked to his train, sat down, was pinned down by the police and shot 7 times in the head.

I can't stand the man, I also hate myself so perhaps you might be onto something :D

I had just done some research into it and the police tampering with the evidence and misleading the public is something for concern. Never liked Ian Blair way too into his political co0rrectness crap for my taste.

[Charles RB]

I really dfon't like the way we have to trust the police to protect us when they demonstrate such levels of incompetence and corruption

Any alternative to the current police would also have incompetence and corruption within it, and possibly higher levels of it. For example, if gun-wielding bands on concerned citizens were patrolling the streets of my town on a regular basis, I'd move towns.

[Iangould]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5066166.stm

Two men arrested after a raid on a house in east London have been released without charge, Scotland Yard said.

Police questioned two brothers, one of whom was shot during the raid, on suspicion of terrorism involvement.

Mohammed Abdul Kahar, 23, and Abul Koyair, 20, both denied the allegations. They were held after a major raid in Forest Gate last Friday.

Police are now said to continuing their search for chemical materials elsewhere after finding nothing at that house.
...
A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We appreciate the police operation has caused inconvenience and disruption to the occupants of the house.

"We will be contacting the owners to make appropriate arrangements for the property to be handed back to them.

"We will also be undertaking appropriate restoration work in consultation with the owners."

[Noah Johnson]

We shot an unarmed man again? This is getting bloody daft.
See, that's what you get for having all that gun control. WAY too few armed folks for the police to shoot. The poor police have to shoot SOMEONE, dang it...

[king mob]

I had just done some research into it and the police tampering with the evidence and misleading the public is something for concern. Never liked Ian Blair way too into his political co0rrectness crap for my taste.


The problem lies with the Met, not the UK police in general. There was a terrorist raid in the midlands shortly after the shooting which involved the use of tasers, but no firearms, nobody died. Ian Blair criticised the raid for being too casual.

[Charles RB]

Ian Blair criticised the raid for being too casual.

Does he touch himself whilst reading reports of people being shot or something?

[warspite1805]

Woudn't put it past the man.

[Iangould]

The problem lies with the Met, not the UK police in general. There was a terrorist raid in the midlands shortly after the shooting which involved the use of tasers, but no firearms, nobody died. Ian Blair criticised the raid for being too casual.

"Unnecessary non-use of force".