GTA Death Match: Claude Speed vs Tommy Vercetti vs Carl CJ Johnson vs Toni Cipriani

[Bloody]

Grand Theft Auto Deathmatch

The Prize? Control of Liberty City, Vice City, and San Andreas.

The Contenders

Claude "Fido" Speed (GTA 3)

Tommy Vercetti (GTA Vice City)

Carl CJ Johnson (GTA San Andreas)

Toni Cipriani (GTA Liberty City Stories)

Who will come out as the most dangerous criminal in the Grand Theft Auto Series?

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Personal skill-wise, and in terms of empires and connections, CJ gets my vote.


He's a better hand-to-hand combatant (having learned multiple fighting styles), is more skilled with weapons, and can pull off tricks on motorcycles or inside cars better than the others (heck, he's already beaten Claude in two races).

[Thunder Phoenix]

CJ can swim. The others get into a foot of water, they die.

I'm going with CJ. :P

[CDB]

CJ can swim. The others get into a foot of water, they die.

I'm going with CJ. :P

That clinches it for CJ!!:D

[Bloody]

Although all the characters are all badasses. Toni, in my opinion is the biggest badass, as it was him that brought the Leone Mafia family into nearly conquering Liberty City by eliminating the Sindacco Family, severly weakining the Forelli Family, and numerous major players such as Kazuki Kasen, Avery Carrington and others. Heck, he was the reason the adult club, Sex Club 7, exists in the Red Light District of Liberty City.

Also, he is the most P**sed off character in the entire GTA series due to his severe anger problems.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Although all the characters are all badasses. Toni, in my opinion is the biggest badass, as it was him that brought the Leone Mafia family into nearly conquering Liberty City by eliminating the Sindacco Family, severly weakining the Forelli Family, and numerous major players such as Kazuki Kasen, Avery Carrington and others. Heck, he was the reason the adult club, Sex Club 7, exists in the Red Light District of Liberty City.

Also, he is the most P**sed off character in the entire GTA series due to his severe anger problems.

Yes, but then Claude wandered into town...and single-handedly kicked the crap out of...well...just about everyone. The Mafia, Triad, Columbians, Yardies, Purple Nines, etc.

And he did most of it without backup of any sort, unlike Toni.

[params7]

Tommy Vercetti.

He packs more freakin' guts than the other two. CJ couldn't rescue his own blood brother from Jail, Sweet had to endure his full term and even one time begged CJ to help him but CJ was too pussy to take on the police - HECK! He got his ass handed to him by two lousy cops!
Tommy on the other hand, no officer, cop or lady (kitana) dare speak to him in the tone they spoke with CJ. He rescued a stranger, a criminal from Jail going head on into a police station just because he could rob banks with!!

I need to play Vice City again to find out but i think Tommy even took on the governemnt's army forces. I take him more mature, and more capable than the other two.

CJ imo stands last, unless you're talking GTA SA end CJ. CJ at the start of of the game is nothing but another bystander for both Claude and Vercetti to shoot.

[Flawless P]

Tommy is the main man.

Anyone who gives a Mob boss fake money and then when he get called on it says.
"I know I just wanted to piss you off before I killed you."
Is a straight badass.
In fact I think he should be a member of the Pantheon... if he isnt already.

CJ imo is second because he also had followers and kicked alot of ass.

[TheRedFear]

I don't let game mechanics sway my choices in these kinds of things. If Tommy, Claude, or Tony had the fortune to be in a more up to date(Or in Tony's case, non-handheld) game they'd do everything CJ does. That said it still comes down to a tough call between Tommy, and CJ. I lean a bit more toward Tommy by virtue of the fact he's the total package. Brains, and Brawn. CJ just did what his sister told him to do once they went out on their own. She called the shots and he made it happen. Beyond that their feats are fairly comparable. Both mix it up with the military, though as somebody else pointed out Tommy does score points for the brazen jailbreak, and not tolerating any kind of crap from anybody

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

though as somebody else pointed out Tommy does score points for the brazen jailbreak,

Yes...and CJ waltzed onto an aircraft carrier, stole the equivalent of a Harrier, then went to town on a bunch of spies.


And raided the GTA-verse' equivalent of Area 51 (Area 69).



Besides, Tommy wasn't always being the hardass. It's not until half way into the game that he even tries smartmouthing Sonny. Watch the initial scenes, he practically acts like he's about to have a seizure when he calls Sonny to tell him he lost the money and the drugs.




That, and be real folks. Compare the two jails. The jail Tommy busted into? Not even a tenth of the size of the one Sweet was imprisoned in. It was a podunk little precinct.

[Nefarius]

Tommy Vercetti for me.In GTA 3 and GTA SA i liked the other characters but not the heroes.Vice city was the only game that i liked beign the main character.

[Nikki_4everLover]

I really do have to go with Claude. He has experience over both CJ and Tommy from what I can see. He strolls into town, completely unawares and thanks to circumstance must take on the local mob, his crazy-ass ex-girlfriend sending suicide bombers on her drug after him, her buddies in the Yardies, teh Diablos and basically everyone 'cept the Yakuza (even though he helped kill their head guy) and the black street gang. He has to live now in a city full of AK47 and shotgun-wielding gangs who are out to murder him as well as take a drive through Chinatown where the Triads shoot his car, pull him out and star tto beat him down with baseball bats. That's what he goes through on a day-to-day basis at the end and he lives through it. Not to mention at the ene he takes on a small army with only a handgun to start off.

He impressed me more than a stereotype "ghetto son" in CJ.

[params7]

Tommy would've rescued Sweet in any Police Station if it were upto him. CJ took it from a lady, very irritating lady at that. If Katarina(or whatever her name is) decides to talk with Tommy the way she did with CJ, she won't be living another second. CJ was bullied and controlled and screwed by 2 cops. If those cops decide to welcome Vice City start Tommy into San Andres, killing them first will be Tommy's first mission. Fact, CJ was wuss as stated by Ryder several times. He left Los Santos for Liberty City because he couldn't tolerate all the gang wars. He came back, he got back and got pwned by 2 cops and got his brother locked up. Only at the end of San An is where i'll put CJ at around mid Vice City Tommy.

About Cipriano, he's another tough guy, its hard to chose between him and Tommy but i'll guess Tommy in here as well.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Only at the end of San An is where i'll put CJ at around mid Vice City Tommy.


Ryder was calling CJ a wuss even after he watched him nuke half the conspiracy group he was part of, and mow through an army of thugs. He was still making fun of him when CJ turned his boat to a chunk of slagged metal.


Ryder was also a doped-up moron. So I think I'll ignore his opinions of people.


And breaking into a jail, any jail whatsoever, fails completely and totally to compete with breaking into an aircraft carrier, messing around with their missile batteries, then flying off with one of their jets.


Or sneaking/fighting your way into one of the nation's most secretive and heavily protected installation.

Or going on secret missions against the CIA/FBI.

As for the cops, every single cop that ever appeared up until San Andreas (save Ray, but he was working with you) has been a complete and total dumbass.

Tenpenny had all his bases covered, including backups should he have been killed. The man was dead-to-rights guilty, and yet managed to walk free when brought to trial. Something that was so bullshit that the entire town started rioting.

It took Mike frellin' Toreno, a man with more power than Avery Carrington, Colonel Cortez, and most of Tommy's other friends combined to undo Tenpenny's work.


Fact is, the competition period was more organized and competent in San Andreas than in Vice City.



Edit: And how could you harp on CJ, yet give Cipriano props? I like him, but he took nearly as much (if not more) bullshit over the course of his game.

[Nikki_4everLover]

Well, all that can be attributed to game mechanics. You could not fly any sort of jet or chopper in GTA3 but that does not mean Claude couldn't. Same as saying he doesn't deserve credit for what he did because the AI sucked. The AI did suck but that's the game's fault. You need to look at it realistically and realistically Claude did everything from shoot down a plane for a group he was working for a small time after killing their boss without them knowing to help build up the local mob and then bust them down again.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Well, all that can be attributed to game mechanics. You could not fly any sort of jet or chopper in GTA3 but that does not mean Claude couldn't. Same as saying he doesn't deserve credit for what he did because the AI sucked. The AI did suck but that's the game's fault. You need to look at it realistically and realistically Claude did everything from shoot down a plane for a group he was working for a small time after killing their boss without them knowing to help build up the local mob and then bust them down again.

What are you talking about? I never mentioned Claude.

[Nikki_4everLover]

That's the point. I keep bringing him up and everyone goes off to keep talking about CJ and Tommy. Claude got....forgotten sometime along the way.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

That's the point. I keep bringing him up and everyone goes off to keep talking about CJ and Tommy. Claude got....forgotten sometime along the way.

Well, I already mentioned in my second post of the thread that I held him in higher regard than Cipirano (badass as Toni is)...

...but I'm not sure how he stacks up to CJ or Tommy.


Though CJ has already beaten him twice in one important aspect of their careers, driving. Claude got smoked.

[AntiThesis]

not breaking sweet out kinda pissed me off, i feel like the storyline of the game seemed too law abiding to me, hell when drug dealers on the street offered you drugs the "positvie reply" was to tell them to get out of your hood. and considering the rest of the game why do you even allow yourself to get pulled over by those dopes, ingame if that shit happened you or I would have beat them both to death and stole their cruiser

[Nikki_4everLover]

Well, that is driving. No one said this fight involved any sort of driving porition. Besides, in the end, he got the last laugh. SEE?

*CJ raced and won shitty garage*
CJ: Mute mother!!
Claude: ..............

See? Last laugh.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Well, that is driving. No one said this fight involved any sort of driving porition. Besides, in the end, he got the last laugh. SEE?

*CJ raced and won shitty garage*
CJ: Mute mother!!
Claude: ..............

See? Last laugh.

CJ got a garage which eventually turned into a profitable business.


Claude got the girl. Who then shot him, took the hard earned money, and ran off.

Then, when she found out he was still alive, sent hordes of people at him.


And from the A) phone calls after she leaves San Andreas B) fact she straight out told Claude "it was just business", it seem Catalina still liked CJ. Hell, she was even crying during one phone call.




So at the end of the day, CJ has his empire, including that garage. And the knowledge that, for someone is supposedly over him, Catalina can't seem to stop thinking about him.


Claude gets screwed over, and has nothing but revenge left.



Tell me again, who actually won?

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

not breaking sweet out kinda pissed me off, i feel like the storyline of the game seemed too law abiding to me, hell when drug dealers on the street offered you drugs the "positvie reply" was to tell them to get out of your hood.


It wasn't law-abiding, it was simply the fact that the drugs floating around in their neighborhood had decimated their gang. And those who were still alive were hollow husks of their former selves (like Big Bear).

Or crazy as hell, like Ryder.


Back in the 80's, the Liberty City gangs wanted nothing to do with drugs either. "But it's all drugs, Sonny. None of the families will touch that shit." Does that make them law-abiding? No.


Did it make the Corleone's law-abiding, because they wanted nothing to do with drugs? No.

[Nikki_4everLover]

Tell me again, who actually won?

Claude. Because Catalina shot him dead-blank range but her own goons ended up helping him escape jail and then he proceeded to not only kill her but demolish her entire drug empire. CJ fought for revenge and in the end got more. But his motives were morally-sound at their root. He did very questionable things of course but he at least voices reluctanve and acts compassionately. Claude doesn't give a damn. He earned the trust and respect of a certain Yakuza big shot then ran him down. He helped build up the Leone Family then tore them down. Claude will do anything for no motivation at all.

CJ needs a cause. In a fight like this, he doesn't have one. He wouldn't be up to his best.

[AntiThesis]

It wasn't law-abiding, it was simply the fact that the drugs floating around in their neighborhood had decimated their gang. And those who were still alive were hollow husks of their former selves (like Big Bear).
Or crazy as hell, like Ryder.
Back in the 80's, the Liberty City gangs wanted nothing to do with drugs either. "But it's all drugs, Sonny. None of the families will touch that shit." Does that make them law-abiding? No.
Did it make the Corleone's law-abiding, because they wanted nothing to do with drugs? No.

i'm realy talking about the game itself, for instance the bullet time drugs that are all over the place for vercetti in vice city are nowhere to be found in San Andreas. Killing and prostitution can be done in the same five minutes in SA but when responding to an offer for drugs you only get to choose between dissning or fighting the dealer? That smacks of bowing to political pressure to me.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

but when responding to an offer for drugs you only get to choose between dissning or fighting the dealer? That smacks of bowing to political pressure to me.

In line with the character. CJ says several times within the first few hours of the game that he doesn't do any drugs. None.


And then he drives it home in his many conversations with The Truth.



If they were bowing to political pressure, they wouldn't show the stuff so much. Ryder does it, The Truth, Tenpenny, and a couple other characters as well.

The gameplay is simply a result of the fact that CJ doesn't do drugs. Not all criminals have all the vices. Bart Roberts, an infamous pirate, hated alcohol with a passion.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

*snip*


I asked for who got the most out of the deal.


Who gained more from it in the end.



Claude, who got a girl that later shot him, and still had feelings for CJ?

Or CJ, who got a profitable business, and was finally rid of the woman who kept annoying him now that they'd broken up? And also had the satisfaction of knowing through the phone calls that Catalina was still hung up about him?




Instead of an answer, I get you hopping away from the question, and talking about their personality differences.


In that deal, CJ made out like a bandit.

[Nikki_4everLover]

Because this topic is not about just that. I brought up personality differences to relate back to how that would figure in with who would win in a fight. As for Claude and Catalina, they were on a crime spree and obviously living it up for about...9 years before she shot him. For all we know, CJ could be dead by then, his empire long gone. It's not best to assume either way.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Because this topic is not about just that. I brought up personality differences to relate back to how that would figure in with who would win in a fight.

Then yes, let's get back to that.

Yes, Claude did some impressive stuff by himself. I give him the kudos for simply walking into town, and busting up whoever stood in his way. With typically whatever weapon was at his beck and call, and a little bit of direction.

But really, a good deal of Tommy, CJ and Toni's best feats are in the same situation.


Tommy:

-Thought he was going in for a simple package retrieval. Had to deal with getting jumped by French Special Forces.

-Had to snag a tank from a military convoy going through town in broad daylight

-Dealing with being completely surrounded by Sonny, Lance, and Diaz's remaining forces, in the middle of his mansion.

-Waded by himself into armies of heavily armed thugs in both Print Shop missions.

-Dealt with Sonny's simultaneous attacks on all his businesses by himself.


CJ:

-Snuck into an aircraft carrier, messed with the missile batteries, and stole a jet. Which he then used to take out spy forces moving down the river.

-Infiltrated Area 69, a heavily guarded (and secretive) military base, then stole an experimental jetpack

-Which he then used to ransack another government protected shipment of secret items, mainly the alien Green Goo on the army train.

-Sniped a DEA who had information on Tenpenny, then massacred the FBI agents that had been there to meet him

-Near the end of the game, brings a large number of territories back under Grove Street control by himself in one-man gang wars.

-Single-handedly stormed Sweet's bunker, which was quite a bit more heavily fortified than even Diaz's place, and...I can't think of anywhere in GTA3 that's comparable.

-Beat back a massive S.W.A.T. raid during the 'Reuniting the Families' mission.

-Sneaking into a heavily protected FBI area, killing the witness hid there, and then fighting his way back out

-Snuck aboard a CIA plane, and trashed the lot of them before escaping.

[Nikki_4everLover]

-Single-handedly stormed Sweet's bunker, which was quite a bit more heavily fortified than even Diaz's place, and...I can't think of anywhere in GTA3 that's comparable."


Well, being as Claude had to take the dam and the construction site on hi sown with Cartel members above and around him armed to the teeth with AKs and the most powerful and only fully-automatic gun available in the game in the M16, he obviously had to work some. The M16 is virtually death if it hits Claude due to the amazing firing capacity and speed. CJ and Tommy never had to fight anyone with an M16. Claude had to take on flamethrowers, insane suicide bombers, guys positioned in good range to blast him with M16s and pretty much everything a gang can throw at a guy.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

CJ and Tommy never had to fight anyone with an M16.


Tommy: Lance Vance, the Army on every occasion they appeared, several of the agents in the last Contract Kill mission (the one dealing with the meeting on top of the Cherry Picker building).


CJ: Area 59, the Aircraft carrier, the army train, the final bunker, etc.


Those are off the top of my head. Each of them had people armed with them.

[Nefarius]

Well,Claude was tough but he is a simple crook.Tommy has manage to become the new kingpin of Vice city and CJ built a short living empire(well CJ is way too moral to continue in a life of crime.)

[Dynamo]

-Single-handedly stormed Sweet's bunker, which was quite a bit more heavily fortified than even Diaz's place, and...I can't think of anywhere in GTA3 that's comparable."


Well, being as Claude had to take the dam and the construction site on hi sown with Cartel members above and around him armed to the teeth with AKs and the most powerful and only fully-automatic gun available in the game in the M16, he obviously had to work some. The M16 is virtually death if it hits Claude due to the amazing firing capacity and speed. CJ and Tommy never had to fight anyone with an M16. Claude had to take on flamethrowers, insane suicide bombers, guys positioned in good range to blast him with M16s and pretty much everything a gang can throw at a guy.

Are you serious? The dam wasn't that hard. And you might need to do another check cause at the end of the game you had to fight guys with M4's and Flame throwers, in a burning building with nightvision on. Tommy's fight against Lance was harder than the end of GTA3. Claude simply can't comare to either of them. Just look at Genma's list again and see if Claude does anything that even compares.

[Nikki_4everLover]

First off, the M16 is far more deadly than the M4.

The M-16 is Fully Automatic. Carrys 60 rounds per clip. Has a .03 Reload Animation Speed, and fires 12 rounds per second.

The M4, which is in both VC, and SA, is Semi-Automatic, only has a 30 round clip, and is so innaccurate in a real gunbattle, at any kind of distance above maybe, 30 feet, the M-16 would always dominate.

That's not my own words but the point is still the same. No matter if the AI is better and the mission is harder, what the people are doing to you matters more. Claude fought down guys with actual M16s and fflamethrowers while having to aim and fire at a chopper and get away from two military trucks ramming him. It doesn't matter if you found it easy. I did, as well. But what it actually entails is very impressive.

And I already gave my reasons why Claude would kill CJ. CJ doesn't have the heart for this business. He doesn't want a gangsta life. He ran away to Liberty to avoid everythting Claude embraces. Claude is an underworld lord who doesn't whine abou killing people. He has no care for torture, death, betrayal anything. CJ, a man who hates what he does, who only did any of it for a cause, can't win against such a merciless adversary.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

He doesn't want a gangsta life.

Yet, by the end of the game, is a Kingpin in the underworld. Strengthened his gang, made alliances with others (like a Triad that is far more competent than those found in Libert City), owns countless businesses, houses, and even an airfield.

By the end of the game, he's accepted what he is, and what he does.

The death of his brother is the reason he left and quit the lifestyle in the first place. Which he gets over while working out his other problems.


And you can keep saying "well, Claude never had the chance to do that" and "Claude is so ruthless", etc. Fact is that CJ did have the chance to do those incredible things. He did break into an army base, he did break into an aircraft carrier (which makes the dam look like a cakewalk, considering he also had to take the jet and then fight some spies), and he did personally whoop the asses of several government agencies.

And not only is he accepting of his lifestyle by the end, but he's also dealt with folks who are just as ruthless as Claude ever was (personal ability being the difference).



And Claude, no matter how skilled, how badass, is no 'Underworld Lord'. He's a kickass loner who wanders into town, does what he wants, then leaves to find something else to entertain him.

[Nikki_4everLover]

“Yet, by the end of the game, is a Kingpin in the underworld. Strengthened his gang, made alliances with others (like a Triad that is far more competent than those found in Libert City), owns countless businesses, houses, and even an airfield.

By the end of the game, he's accepted what he is, and what he does.”

Maybe so but it’s about 9 years difference between SA and 3. CJ may want to keep his gang on top but that does not mean he’s the type to make it do so. He’s got everything under him but from all we saw in the game, he is too reluctant and hesitant. You can believe he’s fully embraced an underworld existence but we don’t know that and everything could have damn well fell apart after a year or less or more. I personally feel CJ would attempt to use his leverage and might at the end to get himself away from killing and death. Maybe even help his family and freinds all escape the harsh life they’ve lead. But this is conjecture we all make. We can only speculate on what he did from what we gleamed from his character and you took it in one direction and I in the other.

“And you can keep saying "well, Claude never had the chance to do that" and "Claude is so ruthless", etc. Fact is that CJ did have the chance to do those incredible things. He did break into an army base, he did break into an aircraft carrier (which makes the dam look like a cakewalk, considering he also had to take the jet and then fight some spies), and he did personally whoop the asses of several government agencies.”

I am not taking anything away from CJ. He dia lot of impressive crap. I never will degrade him by making excuses why he did that or why Claude didn’t. I just think that game mechanics made a lot of why people consider CJ superior.


“And Claude, no matter how skilled, how badass, is no 'Underworld Lord'. He's a kickass loner who wanders into town, does what he wants, then leaves to find something else to entertain him”

Well, an underworld big shot at least. He showed up in one of the most corrupt vile cities on Earth in Liberty and in almost no time, kills 3 crime bosses, undoes the Leone Family’s hold upon Liberty (which was set up by Toni years ago) and now just strolls around the city with guys carrying AK47s, shotguns and uzis in almost every area of the city looking for nothing but to murder him. .

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Maybe so but it’s about 9 years difference between SA and 3.



And?

This isn't "Toni, Tommy and CJ by the time of GTAIII", this is each character as they were at the end of their games.


As for getting his friends 'out of that lifestyle', the only one who really wants to get out is his sister (and even she supports some illegal activities. Even CJ began enjoying going on raids, and stuff. His brother has flat out stated he wants to be a ganster until he dies, Woozie is a born and bred Triad, Caesar will probably help run some of the garages, and smaller businesses of CJ, but has admitted that the gangs, illegal street races, and street life is part of his blood.

The Truth...well...the guy grows and sells drugs, advocates action against the government, etc, etc, and is unlikely to change his ways. Madd Dogg can support himself. Toreno may or may not even be in contact with CJ.

And so on and so forth. The majority of CJ's friends are criminals, or people whose lives aren't strictly legal.

[Dynamo]

First off, the M16 is far more deadly than the M4.

The M-16 is Fully Automatic. Carrys 60 rounds per clip. Has a .03 Reload Animation Speed, and fires 12 rounds per second.

The M4, which is in both VC, and SA, is Semi-Automatic, only has a 30 round clip, and is so innaccurate in a real gunbattle, at any kind of distance above maybe, 30 feet, the M-16 would always dominate.

That's not my own words but the point is still the same. No matter if the AI is better and the mission is harder, what the people are doing to you matters more. Claude fought down guys with actual M16s and fflamethrowers while having to aim and fire at a chopper and get away from two military trucks ramming him. It doesn't matter if you found it easy. I did, as well. But what it actually entails is very impressive.

And I already gave my reasons why Claude would kill CJ. CJ doesn't have the heart for this business. He doesn't want a gangsta life. He ran away to Liberty to avoid everythting Claude embraces. Claude is an underworld lord who doesn't whine abou killing people. He has no care for torture, death, betrayal anything. CJ, a man who hates what he does, who only did any of it for a cause, can't win against such a merciless adversary.

I just fired the M4 from SA and the M16 from GTA III and the M16 is more inaccurate. The M4 also has 50 rounds, not 30. So it has better aim and only 10 less rounds. And still, they both had to face flamethrowers, so you haven't said anything important.

CJ doesn't have the heart for the business? Were you actually playing the game or did you just read a plot synopsis? Plus you're using CJ from the beginning of the game to say he can't cut it when we're dealing with the characters at the end of their respective games. That means you're reaching. CJ at the end of the game has several businesses, several well off friends and gang members and several nice houses. What does Claude have at the end of the game? A few safehouses...and? Doesn't seem like much of an underworld lord. Especially compared to Tommy, who uses murder and explosions as the solutions to any of his problems.

So on the Underworld lord front:
- Claude at games end has safehouses you can count on one hand, whatever cars you decide to put in the garages...and?
- Tommy at game's end has a mansion, complete with helicopter on the roof, several safehouses, his own car dealership, his own club, his own movie company, his own boat yard, his own ice cream store, his own taxi company and is just basically the most powerful man in Vice City.
- CJ at game's end he has his own mansion, an assload of safehouses, his own car garage/chopshop, his own car dealership, his own air strip, several girlfriends and is basically the leader of the strongest gang in SA.

So again, Claude can't compete.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

- CJ at game's end he has his own mansion, an assload of safehouses, his own car garage/chopshop, his own car dealership, his own air strip, several girlfriends and is basically the leader of the strongest gang in SA.



Don't forget partial ownership of one of the biggest and newest casinos on the strip.

Along with two food marts (Roboi's and Hippy Shopper), an electronic toy store (Zero's) that doubles as a miniature weapons factory, and gains partial control of a Burger Shot, the Hunter Quarry, the valet parking operation outside a large hotel, etc.

[Dynamo]

Don't forget partial ownership of one of the biggest and newest casinoes on the strip.

Yea, I knew I had forgotten something. I actually forgot about the casino missions and am doing them now.

[Thanos_6383]

CJ can swim. The others get into a foot of water, they die.

I'm going with CJ. :P



Hahahah.Poor Bastards.

[Nikki_4everLover]

I just fired the M4 from SA and the M16 from GTA III and the M16 is more inaccurate. The M4 also has 50 rounds, not 30. So it has better aim and only 10 less rounds. And still, they both had to face flamethrowers, so you haven't said anything important.

Actually, I have. The M16 in 3 is superior to the M4. Please don’t disregard a point I make.


CJ doesn't have the heart for the business? Were you actually playing the game or did you just read a plot synopsis? Plus you're using CJ from the beginning of the game to say he can't cut it when we're dealing with the characters at the end of their respective games. That means you're reaching. CJ at the end of the game has several businesses, several well off friends and gang members and several nice houses. What does Claude have at the end of the game? A few safehouses...and? Doesn't seem like much of an underworld lord. Especially compared to Tommy, who uses murder and explosions as the solutions to any of his problems.

For one, CJ doesn’t have the heart all through the game. Perhaps you’ll remember the emotional talk with a dying Big Smoke? CJ asked him why he did it. Claude and Tommy didn’t engage in conversation after they killed their respective old friends. Claude blew Catalina out of the sky without a care only to go on and (most probably) kill the person he rescued. Tommy shot down both Lance and Sonny with no “why did you do it?!” They’re both more ruthless and cold-blooded than CJ was at any point in the game.


So on the Underworld lord front:
- Claude at games end has safehouses you can count on one hand, whatever cars you decide to put in the garages...and?
- Tommy at game's end has a mansion, complete with helicopter on the roof, several safehouses, his own car dealership, his own club, his own movie company, his own boat yard, his own ice cream store, his own taxi company and is just basically the most powerful man in Vice City.
- CJ at game's end he has his own mansion, an assload of safehouses, his own car garage/chopshop, his own car dealership, his own air strip, several girlfriends and is basically the leader of the strongest gang in SA.

So again, Claude can't compete.

Oh my you’ve certainly disproven a point I never made. I mean, Tommy has a strip club and CJ had a car dealership. One certainly can only be an underworld lord when they have car dealerships. Killing the head of the Yakuza in the area, destabilizing the most powerful mob in the city and undoing in a matter of days all Toni’s work and finally beating back a militarized South American gang who does nothing but gain power and influence no matter what you do until you finally take out a small army of them and then blow their leader out of the sky counts for nothing. That would certainly not give a person a high rank in the underworld. He’s probably a nobody and that’s why every gang in Liberty is out for his blood with the exception of the Nines and Yakuza. So....I guess you’re right. Having a big mansion is the only way a person is an underworld lord and Claude just can’t compete.

I love sarcasm. Such a great tool. But yeah, seriously, Claude can compete very much so with the lot of them and I don’t think your short-sighted attempts to make him look weak will work. Claude is a gun-for-hire. Some people prefer that line of work than having to be weighed down with all the various things Tommy and CJ got laidened down with. It’s what they want and Claude never gave an indication he wanted to build a criminal empire. He sure as hell loves to tear them down, though.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

For one, CJ doesn’t have the heart all through the game. Perhaps you’ll remember the emotional talk with a dying Big Smoke? CJ asked him why he did it. Claude and Tommy didn’t engage in conversation after they killed their respective old friends. Claude blew Catalina out of the sky without a care only to go on and (most probably) kill the person he rescued. Tommy shot down both Lance and Sonny with no “why did you do it?!” They’re both more ruthless and cold-blooded than CJ was at any point in the game.


Big difference that you're blatantly ignoring:

Catalina: Chick that Claude hung around with for nine years, but doubtlessly knew was batshit insane (CJ picked that up within about...oh...twenty seconds of meeting her), and probably knew one day would try to betray him.

Look at all the crap she did in just a few days/weeks (however long her and CJ dated). Imagine nine years of watching her kill people for whatever reason tripped her trigger. Hell, I'd be willing to gun her down if she ever turned on me.

Lance Vance: Tommy knew him for an even shorter amount of time. Maybe what...7 months? A year at most?

Lance was a close friend, but Tommy had already given warnings to him a couple times because he was starting to go schizoid. "I'm warning...don't.be.stupid."

Big Smoke: Unlike the other two, had known CJ all his life. Grew up with him, fought by him, watched family members and gang friends die, and was a brother to him in nearly all but blood. And the Grove Street Family was just about that credo, "your gang-mates are family". Even Sweet, a man who has more of the hardcore gangster mentality, was floored that Big Smoke and Ryder would be responsible for killing their brother and mother.



There is a big difference between "crazy chick with a trigger finger", "neurotic, paranoid hanger-on who becomes a friend", and "guy who you grew up with, who helped you out in tough spots, and you thought of like a brother".


And even then, CJ only bothered to ask after he'd torn through and crushed Smoke's bodyguards, and Smoke lay on the floor already dying.

And Ryder, who was a similar case, didn't even get that. CJ just turned his boat around, and said "stupid bastard".

[Nikki_4everLover]

Big difference that you're blatantly ignoring

Wrong. You’re the one flagrantly disregarding the proven fact that CJ is NOT cold-blooded killer. He has too much heart and fights for reasons. He has motives that drive him to commit crimes. You can’t swallow that, it seems. You totally go against the mass of people who played the game and found CJ as a normal human who isn’t a sociopath or just an underworld gun-for-hire. I played the game and so did everyone else I know. We came away with the image of CJ, a kind man driven to do what he did by mere circumstance. He will never gain the insane ienjoyment of death Tommy does or have a total lack of feeling for the people he kills.


Catalina: Chick that Claude hung around with for nine years, but doubtlessly knew was batshit insane (CJ picked that up within about...oh...twenty seconds of meeting her), and probably knew one day would try to betray him.

Look at all the crap she did in just a few days/weeks (however long her and CJ dated). Imagine nine years of watching her kill people for whatever reason tripped her trigger. Hell, I'd be willing to gun her down if she ever turned on me.

Yeah. And you forgot Maria. The chick who had just told Claude she loved him and he had blown down a helicopter to rescue. He blew her away because she was whining. Let me know when CJ does something even half as cruel as that.


Lance Vance: Tommy knew him for an even shorter amount of time. Maybe what...7 months? A year at most?

Lance was a close friend, but Tommy had already given warnings to him a couple times because he was starting to go schizoid. "I'm warning...don't.be.stupid."

You also forgot Sonny. Tommy had known Sonny before he got into prison and at the beginning Tommy seemed very loyal to Sonny. Tommy simply sees people as obstacles. Whether old friends in Sonny or new friends in Lance, if they get in his way he’ll blow them away.



There is a big difference between "crazy chick with a trigger finger", "neurotic, paranoid hanger-on who becomes a friend", and "guy who you grew up with, who helped you out in tough spots, and you thought of like a brother".

Yeah, there is. There is also a big difference between how Claude and Tommy see the underworld and killing and how CJ sees it. No matter how you try and twist it, CJ always came off as an emotional man who doesn’t want a life about killing and violence. He’s not and never will be the hardened criminals both Claude and Tommy are.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

And for that matter, the majority of the time CJ was reluctant to do a mission, it was for exactly the same reason Tommy was almost every time Cortez asked for a favor, he saw no particular reason why he needed to deal with someone else's mess. It took Cortez constantly reminding him that he was his only real source in the investigation about the missing coke. And him reminding Tommy that he needed every last piece of cash he could get at the moment. (Which is ironic, because in the long run, Cortez did jack and crap to help Tommy, other than introduce him to Diaz).

Or with Big Mitch Baker. Tommy (again, like CJ) didn't want to run errands for someone, just to get what he saw as a minor favor. He even asked Mitch if he could just fast-forward to end, and get it over with.



And even when he particularly didn't want to get involved (like in the Mafia civil-war taking place in the casino-district), CJ would just shrug his shoulders, maybe throw a sarcastic comment or two (like Tommy when talking to Cortez "this deal going to go as well as the last one"), and then go out and do it.


Half the crap CJ got dragged into by his friends had nothing to do with his main goal (find and kill the person who killed his mom/kill the people who betrayed him later on), but he did it most of the time without a second thought.




And remember, default Khazan rules has each character in their 'do-or-die' mentality. Meaning motivation isn't really a problem.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

You also forgot Sonny. Tommy had known Sonny before he got into prison and at the beginning Tommy seemed very loyal to Sonny. Tommy simply sees people as obstacles. Whether old friends in Sonny or new friends in Lance, if they get in his way he’ll blow them away.




Yeah, there is. There is also a big difference between how Claude and Tommy see the underworld and killing and how CJ sees it. No matter how you try and twist it, CJ always came off as an emotional man who doesn’t want a life about killing and violence. He’s not and never will be the hardened criminals both Claude and Tommy are.


1. Tommy dropped hints throughout the game that he suspected Sonny was responsible for the trap he'd been lead into. Not to mention the fact he was blatantly bitter about having served 15 years for Sonny, having dropped that number in a sarcastic tone 2-3 times when he talked to him.

Let's look at the dialogue at the end.

"What was it...10, no, 12 men. That's why they called you the Harwood Butcher."

"You SENT ME TO KILL ONE MAN, Sonny. One.man."

"Heh, watch your tone. I'm beginning to suspect you think I was responsible for that little mess."

And Tommy simply stares at him like 'no shit'.



There was nothing even close to a good relationship between the two.



2. And the fact is that CJ, as a stepping towards to his goal, or as a favor to his friends, or just to kill some time, did feats that compare to or surpass Tommy and Claude's best.

And for a kind and gentle man...he sure found it easy to kill a bunch of people just to humor O.G. Loc. Who he knew wasn't even a very good rapper. "You want this talent agent dead? Sure." And then he dumped the guy and his girlfriend into the ocean to drown.

Yes, CJ is really full of cuddlies and fuzzies all around.

[Nikki_4everLover]

Then, let's just follow your opinion and disagree with everyone else. This is repetitive to the point of annoyance. One-on-one arguments surrounding fact-oriented opinion never gets anywhere. You wouldn't stop and I wouldn't stop. The last page-and-a-half proved as much. I don't think CJ would win because CJ never came off half-as-brutal as the other two. You came off with an impression I and no one else I've heard of came away with. So, again, a pointless spiral. Until at least one other person enters this argument and makes an intriguing argument somehow, I won't respond. It's just a waste of time.

Of course, this could be attributed to cowardice or running away or a chicken-crap away of dodging defeat but that's your interpretation. It's up to you.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

You came off with an impression I and no one else I've heard of came away with.

A number of people I've talked to have (and we're talking Gamefaqs, where the GTA sections talk about "who was the better character" at least once or twice a day). Someone who'll murder people for something as petty as helping out their no-talent rapper friend get a contract isn't close to being a peaceful soul.

Or sits there and watches his girlfriend murder people because they annoy her, without doing anything more than shrugging his shoulders.

He's not the unfeeling mercenary Claude is, but he's murdered, beaten, tortured and intimidated just as many (if not more) as those two.

"He's just doesn't have the heart" rings hollow after the 23rd time we've seen him blow through a group of folks, or calmly accept a mission to kill those who are annoying the Triads, or rain holy Hell on people that have been harassing him.

Or kills a group of construction workers, and buries one alive in concrete.


And that's my stance. Conversation done.

[Angel_Of_Cheese]

I don't think CJ would win because CJ never came off half-as-brutal as the other two.

I kind of don't see the relevance of this. The match here is a death match between the four. It isn't about who will out brutal the other three. And CJ, when the need calls for it, is just as capable of killing as the others. Maybe he was less then thrilled at his lot in life, but lets face it - that never once stopped him from doing what had to be done.

In fact, if that was the case, I would say it makes him all the more fearsome as an opponant - it is one thing to kill because you don't care or enjoy it, it is a whole different kind of will power to overcome ones wish not to kill and do all the stuff CJ did.

But as I said, that seems superfluos. If CJ is being gunned for by the other three, it doesn't matter whether he wants to kill or not - he will fight back, and when he does he will be just as good as them, better I would say in light of some of the things he did in the game (and I agree, actual feats are what matters, saying that the others could have done similar if they had the game tech doesn't change the fact CJ is the only one we know can, and has, done it all)

[Dynamo]

Actually, I have. The M16 in 3 is superior to the M4. Please don’t disregard a point I make.

- I looked at the points you made and they were erroneous. The M16 doesn't have better aim than the M4. You can autoaim the M4, you have to use the M16 like the sniper rifle.

For one, CJ doesn’t have the heart all through the game. Perhaps you’ll remember the emotional talk with a dying Big Smoke? CJ asked him why he did it. Claude and Tommy didn’t engage in conversation after they killed their respective old friends. Claude blew Catalina out of the sky without a care only to go on and (most probably) kill the person he rescued. Tommy shot down both Lance and Sonny with no “why did you do it?!” They’re both more ruthless and cold-blooded than CJ was at any point in the game.

- Again, did you actually play the game at all? For someone who "doesn't have the heart", CJ killed a whole lot of people. And now you're going to say the fact that CJ has a semblance of morals and feels pity for Big Smoke (who he went through an entire building full of gang members/bodyguards to get through and kill himself), who was family to him, makes him too soft? You're reaching my friend, you have no other leg to stand on in this argument. Because without the idea that CJ has morals compared to the other two, you have nothing. Claude didn't engage in conversation?! Really?! Could it be because he's a mute? He doesn't conversate with anyone! Plus Tommy didn't have anyone in the game that was as close to him as family, so again, you're grasping at straws.

Oh my you’ve certainly disproven a point I never made. I mean, Tommy has a strip club and CJ had a car dealership. One certainly can only be an underworld lord when they have car dealerships. Killing the head of the Yakuza in the area, destabilizing the most powerful mob in the city and undoing in a matter of days all Toni’s work and finally beating back a militarized South American gang who does nothing but gain power and influence no matter what you do until you finally take out a small army of them and then blow their leader out of the sky counts for nothing. That would certainly not give a person a high rank in the underworld. He’s probably a nobody and that’s why every gang in Liberty is out for his blood with the exception of the Nines and Yakuza. So....I guess you’re right. Having a big mansion is the only way a person is an underworld lord and Claude just can’t compete.

- See, you dodged my main point. CJ and Tommy *ACTUALLY HAVE STUFF AT THE END OF THEIR GAMES*. What does Claude have? Your answer is that he has people in town that want to kill him. Big whoop. There aren't any gangs left in SA to oppose CJ. They're all dead. But I guess you actually need enemies around to be considered an "underworld lord". I think there are people in Little Haiti that want to kill Tommy, so he may be in the running.


I love sarcasm. Such a great tool. But yeah, seriously, Claude can compete very much so with the lot of them and I don’t think your short-sighted attempts to make him look weak will work. Claude is a gun-for-hire. Some people prefer that line of work than having to be weighed down with all the various things Tommy and CJ got laidened down with. It’s what they want and Claude never gave an indication he wanted to build a criminal empire. He sure as hell loves to tear them down, though.

- Short-sighted? I made a list of feats for them that Claude couldn't live up to. All I'm getting from you is that "Claude is an underground lord because he killed all the local gangs and they want to kill him." and "CJ doesn't have the heart." Now you're saying Claude doesn't want to be an underground lord, he wants to be a gun for hire. Guess who else was a gun for hire? Every other GTA protagonist. So now I'm supposed to believe Claude is better than them because he wanted to be a gun for hire as a point of preference? No, I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt.

[atomic_amish]

Claude would win.

[Lord of Nonsensical Crap]

This may have already been asked but...why isn't Niko Bellic on the list?

[Crimson King]

This may have already been asked but...why isn't Niko Bellic on the list?

Look at the date the thread was created. Uber thread necro.

[dark_eyes]

It will come down to Tommy and Claude I think because Toni is in my opinion, the weakest of the bunch. So, he will die early. Then CJ will get jumped by both Tommy and Claude. So it comes down to them. I'm personalty leaning to Claude because he has experience, great shot, and proven to be a good racer. And yes, I know how badass Tommy is but awesomeness ain't everything. So there's my answer. Claude wins.

[aut0matic]

necro'd twice. i'd say the gta IV generation of protagonists kick all of their asses- particularly niko and luis. niko with his "red army" ninja moves, and luis being a proficient cage fighter as well as being a bouncer/bodyguard by trade.