IS Superman being retconned to fit Smallville?

[shakespear]

I heard this discussion in the shop yesterday. Is it true? I know they changed luthors backstory to have an overbearing dad...

[Lord of Denial]

Though SV have dropped the ball as far as telling the story I have always liked the concept that CK and LL where friends before they where comics most legendary rivals. It makes that hate much more personal and gives the story a richer and epic history.

So if the comics choose to follow that road as long as they do it right I am all for it.

[20yrslater]

Actually, in pre-Crisis issues of Superboy they WERE friends. Lex started to hate SB after a fire in his lab caused Lex to lose all of his hair, and he blamed Superboy for the accident. Also, I think in Birthright, it's suggested that LL and CK knew each other when they were young.

Here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy#Enemies_of_Superboy

Enemies of Superboy

Some of Superman's foes, such as the Phantom Zone villains, made their first appearance in Superboy stories, and some (such as Mr. Mxyzptlk) also appeared as younger versions of themselves in the Superboy stories. The most famous example of this is the young Lex Luthor. In a story purporting to reveal the origin of the enmity between Luthor and Superman, Lex Luthor was a teenage boy the same age as Superboy, and the two became best friends after Lex moved to Smallville. Superboy built a fully-stocked laboratory for Lex in order for the latter to conduct his experiments, while Lex searched for a cure for Superboy's weakness to Kryptonite. However, when a fire in Lex's lab forced Superboy to destroy an important experiment Lex was working on in order to save his life, the chemicals used caused Lex to lose all of his hair. Lex blamed Superboy for destroying his experiment and his hair loss, accusing the Boy of Steel of jealousy over his brilliance, with Lex swearing to prove to the world that he was superior to Superboy. Lex did this by trying to implement a series of scientific quality-of-life improvements for Smallville's residents; however, each invention of Lex's wound up backfiring, resulting in the needed intervention of Superboy. This series of setbacks, along with the earlier lab accident, resulted in Lex deciding to dedicate his life to destroying Superboy. Thereafter, Lex Luthor and Superboy were arch-enemies.

[Ontir]

It always worked in Superboy, and gave a great deal of momentum to why Lex hated Superman so much. The one break-down was that they never carried it through to Lex being fooled into thinking Clark was someone different, and Lex trying to maintain that friendship, which would've been interesting.

[Kara Zor El]

I prefer it if they didn't know each other as kids. It's just a bit to much for me and aws glad when Byrne ditched it but I'll live with its return.
I like the idea of Lex being top dog for a long time building his empire and then one day a Super being appears and takes it all away from him without actually meaning to and Lex's obssession growing from that.

[Rylon]

Smallville uses a combination of Donner's movie and Byrne's Man of Steel. For example, the Fortes of Solitude is like the Donner movie. Lex being a evil corporate businessman is MOS.

Up, Up, and Away seems to use the Birthright depiction of Krypton, but so far is ignoring Soul Vision, and seems to be keeping Lex's MOS continuity. A retcon would require Jonathan's death, a non-scientist Lex, and a completely different Lana. I've hear that the comics will soon, introduce Chloe, but I don't know. They may have already.

[Ontir]

Actually, businessman Lex Luthor is Marv Wolfman's idea. I think that can be combined in the comic, like it was in Smallville, and as it seems Birhtright is going to be THE new origin, I'm guessing that's what they're doing.

[Rylon]

Actually, businessman Lex Luthor is Marv Wolfman's idea. I think that can be combined in the comic, like it was in Smallville, and as it seems Birhtright is going to be THE new origin, I'm guessing that's what they're doing.Businessman Lex is Wolfman's idea, I was just refering to the story he premiered in.

[Ontir]

OK. Just wasn't sure if you knew, and wanted to impart some info - cheers!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Certain elements that were revived in the Smallville TV show have certainly made its way into the comics, but it's a little too early to tell what the exact changes are yet.

Even the recent Birthright looks like it is going to be tweaked, as Kubert is redesigning Jor-El.

[Rylon]

I sometimes think the only Superman story anyone wants to tell is his origin.

I picture editors going: "You know, you could create a new supervillian. Come on, I know you want to add to Superman's rogues gallery."

Writer #23: "No! No! No! The last guy got it all wrong! I want to write his origin!"

Editor: "Sigh. Ok, ok, we'll retcon his origin again."

[mohammedali]

I sometimes think the only Superman story anyone wants to tell is his origin.

I picture editors going: "You know, you could create a new supervillian. Come on, I know you want to had to Superman's rogues gallery."

Writer #23: "No! No! No! The last guy got it all wrong! I want to write his origin!"

Editor: "Sigh. Ok, ok, we'll retcon his origin again."
Somebody fetch SBP for another punch practice...

[Andy S.]

I sometimes think the only Superman story anyone wants to tell is his origin.

I picture editors going: "You know, you could create a new supervillian. Come on, I know you want to had to Superman's rogues gallery."


That sounds similar to what they did after Zero Hour with that guy Conduit, who was introduced as an old high school friend of Clark's.

[PatrickG]

Businessman Lex is Wolfman's idea, I was just refering to the story he premiered in.

Actually, it was Elliot Maggin's idea.

Wolfman's contribution was having the public actually buy into Luthor's hype, as near as I can tell.

[Rylon]

Wolfman claims he came-up with the idea prior to working on the Post-Crisis relaunch. He claims that the idea was rejected, so he used it into Vandal Savage. Maggin did use businessman Lex in a novel (not a comic) prior to Man of Steel.

[Ontir]

The businessman model was what Wolfman had proposed and had rejected, at the point that DC re-vamped Luthor and Brainiac. Instead, Luthor got his battle-armour, and Brainiac became the more cybernetic looking character in the "Death's Head" ship.

[phantom1592]

The Kents have gone from Old white haired people to looking like Schnieder and O'toole

Black Kryptonite has been used

Clark and Lex knew each other when younger.

HOWEVER

They haven't changed Lana yet. or Added the Meteor rock mutants.... too my knowledge at least.

[dupersuper]

Actually, Kellys' Zod could've been considered a meteor freak, despite being from Russia. They've added plenty of childhood/highschool chums of Clarks after the fact (Kenny Braverman, Sharon Lance, the heavier girl that Clark dated, the kid in the drunk driving issue, Sam from the recent Sam Loeb tribute, etc.), so I'd really like to see Chloe in the comics (doesn't even have to know Clark when he was young...could just be Lois' cousin), and I'm ok with an acquaitence with Lex based on birthright, but really prefer the MOS model. My problem with Smallville is that Lex and Clark were so close, to the point that Lex has been strongly suspicious of Clarks' abilities and origins, but later is just supposed to not notice the superhero flying around doing the EXACT THINGS the kryptonians he's met can do showing up the same time Clark starts slouching and wearing glasses...??????

[NotSuper]

Wolfman claims he came-up with the idea prior to working on the Post-Crisis relaunch. He claims that the idea was rejected, so he used it into Vandal Savage. Maggin did use businessman Lex in a novel (not a comic) prior to Man of Steel.
True enough, but Maggin DID create LexCorp, in a comic, prior to Man of Steel.

[NotSuper]

Up, Up, and Away..and seems to be keeping Lex's MOS continuity.
I haven't seen any evidence of that. Lex has mostly been a scientist in the storyline, which is closer to the Birthright version of Lex. The post-Crisis Luthor was also a scientist (how do you think he became rich?) but mostly let his underlings do all the scientific work. I wouldn't put him at the same level as the current Lex in terms of scientific knowledge. I doubt there will be much (if any) Man of Steel elements on New Earth, but there will be plenty of post-Crisis Superman continuity that's still canon ("The Death and Return of Superman," ect al). But going back to Lex, I think certain elements of history like putting his brain in a younger clone (Lex Luthor II) are gone from canon. If they weren't, the authorities would never have let him go free if he pulled the same stunt (using a doppleganger) twice.

Of course, Birthright won't be the only change to Superman's continuity, in my view. After all, he could've been Superboy, which conflicts with his latest origin.

[Rylon]

Lex has mostly been a scientist in the storyline, which is closer to the Birthright version of Lex.The emphasis is inline with Birthright, but the facts support both interpretations.

I just read Birthright recently, and while it defers in details with MOS, I think it keeps a lot themes and ideas of the post-Crisis/MOS Superman. The biggest changes made in Birthright seem to be those related to Krypton.

The post-Crisis Luthor was also a scientist (how do you think he became rich?) but mostly let his underlings do all the scientific work. I wouldn't put him at the same level as the current Lex in terms of scientific knowledge.I would, but that's me. Prior to loosing LexCorp, Lex wasn't forced to use his scientific genius to get by.

I doubt there will be much (if any) Man of Steel elements on New EarthGiven the amount of MOS that's in Birthright I have to disagree.

but there will be plenty of post-Crisis Superman continuity that's still canon ("The Death and Return of Superman," ect al).Birthright seemd to be written to keep as much of that continuity as possible.

But going back to Lex, I think certain elements of history like putting his brain in a younger clone (Lex Luthor II) are gone from canon. If they weren't, the authorities would never have let him go free if he pulled the same stunt (using a doppleganger) twice.Well, in Lex's defense, he produced evidence both times. If the evidence points to a doppleganger, then it doesn't matter how many times it's happened before.

Of course, Birthright won't be the only change to Superman's continuity, in my view. After all, he could've been Superboy, which conflicts with his latest origin.Clark as Superboy seems to be the latest rumor going around.

Like I said above, origin stories seem to be very popular with Superman. Still, while I see them changes small details, I doubt that overall themes of MOS will be changed.

[Jack]

It's unlikely that Clark was actually "Superboy", as in with the costume and everything. Most probably New Earth Clark is more like Smallville Clark in that he had his powers and had plenty of adventures as a kid.

[phantom1592]

It's unlikely that Clark was actually "Superboy", as in with the costume and everything. Most probably New Earth Clark is more like Smallville Clark in that he had his powers and had plenty of adventures as a kid.


While your probably right. The only question I have is how did they know it was Superman? the Comment was something like "there were reports of Superman before he came to metropolis.

With as many Superhumans in the DCU why would anyone assume that blur was SUperman, and not one of the flashes or something?

[Ontir]

It might be interesting to see a prototypical version of Superman, as a new Superboy. If he crossed over with the new Legion, he could see an image of himself in a comic book, and adjust his look, to mirror that, sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Rylon]

With as many Superhumans in the DCU why would anyone assume that blur was SUperman, and not one of the flashes or something?I'm thinking it's because of Superman's status as one of the first metahumans. I've always figured that there were a few metas in WWII, very few to none afterwords untill about 70s/80s when Superman came on the scene, ushering in a new wave of metahuman activity.

[Ontir]

Think of it this way. How many people insist Tupac, Elvis, and Jim Morrison are alive and well today? Imagine that thinking with a guy like Superman. He's been gone a year, and no body was found, AND he was killed on international TV once before, and a year later, he was back!

[NotSuper]

Just out of curiousity, Rylon, why did you change "Luthor" to "Luther" when you quoted me? You do know that "Luthor" is the correct way the name is spelled, right? It's not a big deal, I'm just wondering why.

[NotSuper]

Re: Superboy

I think the way they'll reintroduce Clark/Kal as a young Superboy is to have him be kind of a legend. Basically, he'll wear the suit and fight crime and natural diasters (maybe with Krypto?) but he won't publicly be known to the world. Kind of like the Clark Kent in Busiek's Secret Identity.

[NotSuper]

I just read Birthright recently, and while it defers in details with MOS, I think it keeps a lot themes and ideas of the post-Crisis/MOS Superman. The biggest changes made in Birthright seem to be those related to Krypton.
I agree that Krypton being altered is the biggest change. However, in changing Krypton you also change many other aspects of Superman. While the Man of Steel Superman was neutral about Krypton and considered himself to be human, the current Superman seems to consider himself equally Kryptonian and human (with his costume being a reflection of his alien heritage). And let's not forget about Clark Kent (that is Metropolis Clark) partially being a disguise now--that in-itself is a huge change from Superman's Old Earth origin.

[Gernot]

Just out of curiousity, Rylon, why did you change "Luthor" to "Luther" when you quoted me? You do know that "Luthor" is the correct way the name is spelled, right? It's not a big deal, I'm just wondering why.

Maybe "Luthor" found religion and altered his name? ;)

[Rylon]

Just out of curiousity, Rylon, why did you change "Luthor" to "Luther" when you quoted me? You do know that "Luthor" is the correct way the name is spelled, right? It's not a big deal, I'm just wondering why.It was an accident. I use Apple's Safari as my main web browser, and like all Cocca applications, it can use Mac OS X's built-in spellchecker. Sometimes, I run my entire post thrue it. (It's nice because I don't have to use a wordprocessor just keep people from seeing some hiddiously bad spelling errors.) Unfortunately, I sometimes end-up correcting the spelling of other people's posts. I try not to because it mis-represents them, and my, intentions.

Anyways, I'll edit it.

And yes, I do know how to spell Luthor's name. Most of the time. :)

[Rylon]

I agree that Krypton being altered is the biggest change. However, in changing Krypton you also change many other aspects of Superman. While the Man of Steel Superman was neutral about Krypton and considered himself to be human, the current Superman seems to consider himself equally Kryptonian and human (with his costume being a reflection of his alien heritage). And let's not forget about Clark Kent (that is Metropolis Clark) partially being a disguise now--that in-itself is a huge change from Superman's Old Earth origin.All good points.

I don't think we'll realy see the New Earth Superman until the new regular creative teams come-on to Action and Superman.

Obviously, in Up, Up, and Away! Metropolis Clark isn't the disguise. Will that continue now that he's got he's got his powers? I don't think so. But when has editorial ever listened to me? ;)

[NotSuper]

And yes, I do know how to spell Luthor's name. Most of the time. :)
I was almost sure that you did since you know his history. :)

[NotSuper]

Obviously, in Up, Up, and Away! Metropolis Clark isn't the disguise. Will that continue now that he's got he's got his powers? I don't think so. But when has editorial ever listened to me? ;)
Right. Without his powers, Clark truly became human (well, he still had the same alien DNA, but that's beside the point). Without his powers he doesn't have the need to act mild-mannered. In many ways this is similar to when the Earth-2 Superman lost his powers and forgot he ever was Superman, causing his real personality to manifest itself in his reporter one. This caused Lois to fall in love with Clark (because he acted like Superman) and marry him.

But the current Superman got his powers back, as you said, and seems to prefer having them rather than being "normal." I think, in the end, Clark/Kal actually enjoys being Superman. He's the kind of person that's not happy unless he's helping others and he can help more people as Superman than as a reporter.

[NotSuper]

Incidentally, Superman was already retconned to fit Smallville with Birthright. Of course, that also added some older ideas (Lex being the smartest man on Earth, Krypton being a utopia, mild-mannered Clark Kent, ect).

Because of this, I think the "earlier appearances of Superman" will be something bigger than Clark Kent saving people sans costume. He already did that in Birthright.

[Ontir]

If anything, I think the more interesting aspects of the popular Smallville, the ones the writers want to play with, are being ret-conned to fit Superman!

[dupersuper]

They can easily be retconned in without changing the MOS/post crisis story. Here's 1 for u...Smallville kryptonese has that s-shield looking letter for s and for, I think "air" (wich may explain y it's on the old Kryptonian ships Lex sees with his transtemporal viewer thingee in birthright), this also means hope, and, when upsidedown, resurection. MOS and the action annual in the exile in space saga had kryptonians genetically altering their race (done by Kem el through the clerics extremely advanced portable navigation computer, which Kem El renamed the eradicator), explaining why only Kalel--altered to remove this addition by Jor El-could leave Krypton. In Robinsons' Starman, Jack goes to Krypton in the past and tells Jor El of Earth...first bringing to his attention the race that embrace the emotions he admires and look superficially Kryptonian, and-he later discovers-exist in conditions that would bestow godlike powers on a Kryptonian. The J M Dematis 2 part series with interdiminsional aliens revealed Jor El visited Earth in the past via hologram, and MOS Kryptonians were extremely long lived. Ostranders' The Kents, had the symbol as a modified version of a native american snake image that entered the Kent family when A Kent in the old west married an Indian Woman. I say this symbol is derived from a native further in the past encountering a Jor El hologram and seeing the s/air/hope symbol some time during that...thus I eat my cake and have it to...I really like both MOS and birthright, and DC can't make me choose between 'em. (:

[greenlanternslight1979]

this is kind of off subject but there is a really cool mini-series by Azzerello called Lex Lutor man of steel that give one interpation of why luthor hates big blue so much.i liked it a lot,shows luthors motivations.the best villian is the one who thinks hes a hero .luthor thinks hes doing the world a service by killing an all powerful alien.just thought i'd share

[Ontir]

Yeah, that book was on the stands, either right before or after Lex on Smallville re-interpreted the Indian prophecy that Clark was the evil one, and the guy they had assumed was evil, was the good-guy, because for a man to take on a god like that, he'd have to be something special.