About Batgirl...

[Gail Simone]

There have been a ton of posts lately about what I would have done if I'd taken over Batgirl or Nightwing. I WAS asked by dc what I would do in each case, and had strong feelings about both (although I never actually turned in a Nightwing pitch, I had what I thought was a very hot idea).

Now, I'm not 100% up on what's going on with either character (I'm a bit behind) but knowing the writers, I know it's going to be entertaining. This isn't "Oh, this is how I would have done it," so much as, "here's something interesting that never happened," okay?

Reposted from Chuck Dixon's board:

I was asked to come up with a direction for Batgirl, something new that would give her a fresh platform. I gave it a ton of thought, and the direction I came up with was this (obviously this is the abridged version):

Batgirl saves this minister, a guy who preaches to the homeless of Gotham City, a real get-down-into-it guy, from a vicious robbery. He's beaten badly, and Batgirl lashes out at the gang viciously, until he begs her to stop. He's forgiven them, let the police handle it, he says.

Batgirl is utterly baffled. She doesn't get it. Forgiveness for those who kill and injure innocents isn't part of the batcode. She starts visiting the minister in the hospital. He talks to her, not to convert her, but the belief he has in God is so moving and unshakable, that she comes to think of him as incredibly strong. Everything about him is the opposite of Batman--he's at peace, he doesn't believe in violence, and above all, he's got the joy of God in him, in every part of him. He tells her he used to be a bad, violent man, and the book changed him. The idea appeals to and terrifies her.

So, even though she can barely, barely read, she buys a bible, and at first, she's afraid to even open it. It must be a dangerous and powerful book to change men's hearts so. Each sentence is a struggle at first, and she has to call Oracle and Robin and Alfred to have words explained to her. But one day, bam, she gets it.

From then on, she is truly devout, truly converted. She wears a white bat outfit and starts looking out for the most vulnerable of Gotham's residents, runaways, immigrants, homeless people, mentally ill people, etc, because that's what she understands the minister would do. She still issues righteous beatings because she's a little bit old testament, but she talks scripture with both the minister and the gang members. She believes.

And after a while, she gets a new nickname...many people don't call her Batgirl anymore, she becomes to them, the Angel of the Bat. And for the first time, she's genuinely happy.


Okay, here's the thing. I am not religious. In fact, I am an atheist, and you guys know I'm liberal as all hell. But I too believe Conservatives and religious people have been represented cheaply and unfairly (sometimes stupidly) in comics. When I turned in my pitch/outline (and I wasn't pitching for the book, just being asked what direction I might see for it), the editor instantly thought I meant it in a condescending way...like she would be religious, but would be shown to be naive, or that it would be just a fad, from an intellectual standpoint.

But that's not what I meant at all. I meant that she REALLY believes, and isn't stupid OR ashamed. Is in fact proud of it. Quotes the bible. Asks questions about matters of faith and scripture. And that she would be using her very dark knowledge in a redemptive way. I felt, and feel, that religious readers are often spoken down to in comics, and this would be a character change that would be fascinating for non-believers as well. But no cheating. No smirking. No trying to put in a knowing wink to the parts of the audience who aren't themselves religious.

The weird thing is, the idea actually seemed sort of radical, apparently, as I don't believe they thought it could be carried off sincerely. I don't see why not...it's a character. Her belief system doesn't have to match the writer's, or I couldn't write Dr. Psycho and Chuck couldn't write, say, anyone who isn't a gun nut (I'm kidding!!! Love ya, Chuck!).

Anyway, that was my idea, Angel of the Bat. For whatever reason, that idea seems a thousand times more controversial than having her be the head of the League of Assassins.

I'm not bitter about it, and hopefully I can revisit the idea somewhere, but with all the grim, hopeless characters in the bat-verse, I thought it would be delightful and seditious to do the exact opposite and present a sincere, hopeful and positive version of the character. Batman's reaction alone would be priceless.

So, I did try, anyway!

Gail

[ElvisGuy]

Im not a religious person either and I find that concept VERY original and fascinating ! Now Im bummed Ill never see the storyline ! :(

[Brian Cronin]

To be fair to DC, I think an overtly religious superhero probably WOULD be a bit more controversial than turning a former assassin into...an assassin. :)

In fact, I think a drawback of the current setup IS the seeming lack of innovation. Taking a character who was born to kill and making her a...killer! GASP! What a twist!

I like your idea a good deal better.

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

Top Two Reasons Why It's a Shame We Didn't Get to See This Take On Batgirl

2. Curiousity over whether DC would reuse the Azrael Agent of the Bat logo for Batgirl Angel of the Bat

1. Getting to see what the soles of an all-white costume look like after fighting crime in Gotham for a night!

-Brian

[TCJohnson]

I do like the idea...I don't think there is enough religious people in comics that aren't considered fanatics. One of the reasons why I like Nightcrawler so much, because he is a good catholic without being put down (well, usually....depending on who is writing him.)

Two things though, I am just curious

...Would she become a pacifist like the preacher? How would you keep that exciting? While I really respect pacifists in real life, they don't make the best stories. And if not, how would she resolve the conflict of being religious and turning the other cheek and being a kick ass vigilante?

....With the white thing wouldn't she become more the Target of the Bat?

[Red Berens]

You should just do it, but with a new character. She could be the Angel of the anything, and it would work. You could do it with Shiva, or just make a new character in BoP. It sounds so cool.

[yeoman]

There have been a ton of posts lately about what I would have done if I'd taken over Batgirl or Nightwing. I WAS asked by dc what I would do in each case, and had strong feelings about both (although I never actually turned in a Nightwing pitch, I had what I thought was a very hot idea).

Now, I'm not 100% up on what's going on with either character (I'm a bit behind) but knowing the writers, I know it's going to be entertaining. This isn't "Oh, this is how I would have done it," so much as, "here's something interesting that never happened," okay?

Reposted from Chuck Dixon's board:

I was asked to come up with a direction for Batgirl, something new that would give her a fresh platform. I gave it a ton of thought, and the direction I came up with was this (obviously this is the abridged version):

Batgirl saves this minister, a guy who preaches to the homeless of Gotham City, a real get-down-into-it guy, from a vicious robbery. He's beaten badly, and Batgirl lashes out at the gang viciously, until he begs her to stop. He's forgiven them, let the police handle it, he says.

Batgirl is utterly baffled. She doesn't get it. Forgiveness for those who kill and injure innocents isn't part of the batcode. She starts visiting the minister in the hospital. He talks to her, not to convert her, but the belief he has in God is so moving and unshakable, that she comes to think of him as incredibly strong. Everything about him is the opposite of Batman--he's at peace, he doesn't believe in violence, and above all, he's got the joy of God in him, in every part of him. He tells her he used to be a bad, violent man, and the book changed him. The idea appeals to and terrifies her.

So, even though she can barely, barely read, she buys a bible, and at first, she's afraid to even open it. It must be a dangerous and powerful book to change men's hearts so. Each sentence is a struggle at first, and she has to call Oracle and Robin and Alfred to have words explained to her. But one day, bam, she gets it.

From then on, she is truly devout, truly converted. She wears a white bat outfit and starts looking out for the most vulnerable of Gotham's residents, runaways, immigrants, homeless people, mentally ill people, etc, because that's what she understands the minister would do. She still issues righteous beatings because she's a little bit old testament, but she talks scripture with both the minister and the gang members. She believes.

And after a while, she gets a new nickname...many people don't call her Batgirl anymore, she becomes to them, the Angel of the Bat. And for the first time, she's genuinely happy.


Okay, here's the thing. I am not religious. In fact, I am an atheist, and you guys know I'm liberal as all hell. But I too believe Conservatives and religious people have been represented cheaply and unfairly (sometimes stupidly) in comics. When I turned in my pitch/outline (and I wasn't pitching for the book, just being asked what direction I might see for it), the editor instantly thought I meant it in a condescending way...like she would be religious, but would be shown to be naive, or that it would be just a fad, from an intellectual standpoint.

But that's not what I meant at all. I meant that she REALLY believes, and isn't stupid OR ashamed. Is in fact proud of it. Quotes the bible. Asks questions about matters of faith and scripture. And that she would be using her very dark knowledge in a redemptive way. I felt, and feel, that religious readers are often spoken down to in comics, and this would be a character change that would be fascinating for non-believers as well. But no cheating. No smirking. No trying to put in a knowing wink to the parts of the audience who aren't themselves religious.

The weird thing is, the idea actually seemed sort of radical, apparently, as I don't believe they thought it could be carried off sincerely. I don't see why not...it's a character. Her belief system doesn't have to match the writer's, or I couldn't write Dr. Psycho and Chuck couldn't write, say, anyone who isn't a gun nut (I'm kidding!!! Love ya, Chuck!).

Anyway, that was my idea, Angel of the Bat. For whatever reason, that idea seems a thousand times more controversial than having her be the head of the League of Assassins.

I'm not bitter about it, and hopefully I can revisit the idea somewhere, but with all the grim, hopeless characters in the bat-verse, I thought it would be delightful and seditious to do the exact opposite and present a sincere, hopeful and positive version of the character. Batman's reaction alone would be priceless.

So, I did try, anyway!

Gail

Heck, I'd much rather see that than what we got. It could still work, IMHO.

Now, I'm not religous myself, but I do like the idea of a well crafted super-hero that uses their faith as part of the heroing. One reason I liked Astro City, especially the Confessions arc.

I think the closest I ever got to see this being done in main stream comics was the Space Nun period Andromeda went through in Legion of Super-Heroes. And that had to use a made up space religon.

Next closest I can think of inside mainstram comics using an existing religon was some of the stuff Claremont was doing with Nightcrawler way back in the 80's.

Outside that it seems mainstream comics either get religeous figures as antagonists, or Super-heroes that, while they belong to a religon, never mention it.

Would definately be an intresting idea.

[yeoman]

I do like the idea...I don't think there is enough religious people in comics that aren't considered fanatics. One of the reasons why I like Nightcrawler so much, because he is a good catholic without being put down (well, usually....depending on who is writing him.)

Wolvesbane a little too, once she got past the stuff with Reverend Craig in Ellis' run of Excalibur and then past her rebelious phase early in New Mutants vol. 2.

[stealthwise]

Not to be the sole voice of dissent, but I have no interest in reading that storyline at all. It's not a bad idea; I just couldn't bring myself to care about a character that's devoutly religious, as they tend to be written in ways that focus entirely on their faith. This storyline doesn't sound much different, as it's aimed completely at how Batgirl finds her faith, etc.

Now the result of this storyline would be something interesting to read, as I always like to see the results of the character's transformation, rather than the "how they got there." That was also one reason I didn't like "Half a Life" (although I still maintain that the arc had plenty of problems with it); I didn't care so much about Montoya being outted as a lesbian as what the heck they were going to do with the fact that she liked women, and how it impacted the way she functioned from day to day. Apparently, not much has resulted from that, except for her being with scantily clad women.

[Nate Grey]

Anyway, that was my idea, Angel of the Bat. For whatever reason, that idea seems a thousand times more controversial than having her be the head of the League of Assassins.

Is this proof that the evil twin sister idea (as theorized on a Batgirl thread on the Batman board) isn't happening? :(

Anyway...I liked it, mostly. Changing to a white outfit and spouting scripture would have been a bit much, I think (though changing her chest logo to have white trim instead of yellow trim would have been enough to signify this character is the same yet different). The unofficial nickname of Angel of the Bat is good, too. But I would worry people would think this is just Azrael only female, hence why I think making her spiritual changes not so immediately apparent. There, sure, just a little more subtle.

It boils down to "why should I care about this character?" Each of the batfolks need a "niche" filled that the big Bat can't fill himself. I of course had my own ideas for what Batgirl could have done or become, but YOUR idea of basically filling the "spiritual" niche left vacant by Azrael. Its the perfect and even logical evolution for her given her origin. I wish DC had took a chance on this instead of what they did.

[Skyrider]

Hm...interesting. I'm going to say something that may initially sound like I'm coming out of center field (ironically I may be doing just that). I would also like to point out that I greatly enjoy Gail's writing. :D

I think that the idea is interesting, but I have to say I (to a point) have to side with DC in saying that I think it would be very difficult to pull off sincerely. I can also see why DC would consider it a touchier subject than making her the leader of the League of Assasins. Just by it's simple nature, anything involving religion is more likely to offend people and (unfortunately) we don't get to see any positive images of religious views because of it. (I do agree with your comments about the depiction of Right/Conservative/Religious people...though I, personally, don't believe the three should be considered connected as much as they are in popular media, if at all.)

Now like I said, that's not to say I think it is a bad idea, I just think it's an idea that would need a little polish and quite possibly some toning down in areas. I particuarly love the idea of introducing the character of the Minister and I think Cassie's interaction with the character would lead for some awesome and interesting emotional/moral/mental exploration and development. It's just that it would be difficult to pull off as described without her eventually coming off as preachy.

I do, however, love the idea. It could even be used if they decide to bring Cassie back to the side of the angels (no pun intended) in the future. Though I think that it would have to be precluded by something to shake her belief that she's doing the right thing with killing villians before they can kill others. Also I don't know if she'd be able to take it as far now as she would have before.

Would love to hear what you would have done with Nightwing Gail. :)

[Damo]

To be fair to DC, I think an overtly religious superhero probably WOULD be a bit more controversial than turning a former assassin into...an assassin. :)

Getting miiiiiighty tired of that reasoning. Cass never intentionally killed anyone and spent most of her life trying to make up for the one time she was tricked into killing someone. She was never an assassin, she was an abused child that was tricked into killing someone. Big difference.

Anyway, Angel of the Bat. If it was pretty much anyone but Gail, I'd be afraid of this pitch. But she could probably make it work.

The one thing is though, very early in the Batgirl series, Batman made a long speach about what he saw in Cass while she was "working". The gist was basically that you'd need to be an expert to see it, but that she was going up against these horrible murderers, and was using no more force than was necessary - even being gentle with them, almost. She never struck me as being as vindictive as Bruce can be, just someone that wanted people to stop hurting one another. But the idea of her being attracted to the Bible's promise of redemption... it makes perfect sense for the character.

[matterconsumer]

It's a shame that this didn't get the greenlight.

I agree that the not particularly interesting Bat-verse could use a white knight(y)...

[heystacy]

I love the idea. I wish it could have been explored.

[Indefatigable]

Mmmm, interesting.

[Elegance Liberty]

Angel of the Bat... now that's one DC comic I would have happily bought every month.

A pity... a real pity that didn't get the greenlight. =(

[Blight]

I think it would have been an interesting take on Cassie. Sure would fill in some missing gaps and interesting take. Pity we can't ever see it.

[Michael P]

That would have been interesting. Religion and faith are elements little-explored in superhero fiction, for some weird reason. (Actually not weird at all, if you know the history of the medium; still, it's odd that it's still considered a controversial move after almost 70 years.

[sixstringguild]

Wow. I think that is the most EVEN-handed portrayal of a true Christian in comics I've ever read. Thanks Gail. Shows you're one of the top talented/professional writers out there. Your personal beliefs aside, you're able to get to a character's core despite not having the same beliefs/viewpoint.

That sure would have been a more positive direction for the character rather than the dark one they've taken now...heck, it may have been even more controversial!

[Samurai]

I wouldn't have bought it, personally... either the comic or the conversion. It seems too radical a shift for her, but I'm not a Batgirl expert or anything. I think nearly everyone would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, such as "Aha, I know what's being set up! The preacher said he used to be a bad guy, that's a hint that it's really the preacher from Batman: the Cult! He's brainwashed her like he tried to do to Batman!" I think the less radical way that faith is being handled with JSA's Mr. Terrific is the way to go.

[vazel]

Shame this didn't go through. Would've been interesting to see.Wow. I think that is the most EVEN-handed portrayal of a true Christian in comics I've ever read. Thanks Gail. Shows you're one of the top talented/professional writers out there. Your personal beliefs aside, you're able to get to a character's core despite not having the same beliefs/viewpoint.
Yea, shows great maturity. Lots of respect to Simone.

[Magneto_X]

<<---wants Gail to add Cassandra to the Birds of Prey

[Magneto_X]

Im not a religious person either and I find that concept VERY original and fascinating ! Now Im bummed Ill never see the storyline ! :(

Same here.

It's a shame DC didn't greelight this since it really could bring in the Christian and religious readers (who usually avoid comics).

[Briareos]

I should be allowed to write batgirl. Anything I could write would be better then what they did in Robin. Don't you people have editors!!!

[vazel]

It's a shame DC didn't greelight this since it really could bring in the Christian and religious readers (who usually avoid comics).
Right... http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2677/nuts5te.gif

[Briareos]

And it isn't just religion in general. It's Christianity in particuler. There have been numerous Villians who's main feature is their Christianity (usually as a reasoning for their actions). You never see a villian who is Muslim in comics.

[Briareos]

Right... http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2677/nuts5te.gif

Ok I need everyone right now to turn on a faucet in a sink for me...

*waits*

Ok I agree with Magneto X on this. Alot of Christians don't read comics cause of the content or implied content the cover shows. Heck alot won't go into Comic Shops cause of some of the material that is on display.

[Briareos]

Right... http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2677/nuts5te.gif

Ok I need everyone right now to turn on a faucet in a sink for me...

*waits*

Ok I agree with Magneto X on this. Alot of Christians don't read comics cause of the content or implied content the cover shows. Heck alot won't go into Comic Shops cause of some of the material that is on display.

Ok now has blood come out of everyone's faucets?

[vazel]

What do you have to bring to the table to prove what your saying besides just speculation of how the religious mind works? Most of us religious people are not fanatics that cringe everytime we see a scantily dressed woman. My friend and me are very conservative Catholics and we're huge comic book geeks. No one we know of looks down on us because of this. This may come as a shock to you but most people today are still people of faith and out of all those that buy comic books many if not most are religious.

[YoGo]

1. Getting to see what the soles of an all-white costume look like after fighting crime in Gotham for a night!

-Brian

Ding ding ding, paging Moonknight.

[TCJohnson]

Actually would would have been cool is to have a cape like robins except black on the outside and white and gold on the inside so that she could still go prowling on the roofs but when she would reveal her wings it would be a sign of hope.

[WatsonGlenn]

So instead of getting a Christian Batgirl we get a lesbian Batwoman.

Thanks DC. Doing it for the kids one more time.

[sixstringguild]

So instead of getting a Christian Batgirl we get a lesbian Batwoman.

Thanks DC. Doing it for the kids one more time.

I'm guessing that we things like this because the artistic community has a lot of gays/lesbians in it, thus having a frame of reference to use when depicting them in comics, tv, etc. Everyone knows the entertainment industry in pretty much any sense is very gay friendly.

You don't see a lot of Christians (at least in a positive sense) because maybe there aren't many practicing Christians in the creative community? Writers/artists only know Christians through the wackjobs that appear on tv or on the corner w/ signs or through their own personal bias formed from a negative experience when they were younger.

Just a thought that has no statistical basis whatsoever.

[Magneto_X]

What do you have to bring to the table to prove what your saying besides just speculation of how the religious mind works? Most of us religious people are not fanatics that cringe everytime we see a scantily dressed woman. My friend and me are very conservative Catholics and we're huge comic book geeks. No one we know of looks down on us because of this. This may come as a shock to you but most people today are still people of faith and out of all those that buy comic books many if not most are religious.

While it is speculation on my part I could see more Christians being interested in this version of Batgirl.

You may read comics but I'm certain you're in the minority of Christians who do.

Christians do have their own comics (re: Left Behind etc) but these are all indies, not from the Big Four.

Like with girls and women this is an untapped market in the industry that, if done correctly, could bring in tens of thousands or more new readers.

That's what I was getting at.

[Briareos]

What do you have to bring to the table to prove what your saying besides just speculation of how the religious mind works? Most of us religious people are not fanatics that cringe everytime we see a scantily dressed woman. My friend and me are very conservative Catholics and we're huge comic book geeks. No one we know of looks down on us because of this. This may come as a shock to you but most people today are still people of faith and out of all those that buy comic books many if not most are religious.

I'm not saying everyone is like this. I'm just saying that most comic book stores aren't exactly Christian friendly. My old one (it's my old one cause it closed down) use to put those clive barker inspired toys from Mcfarlayne's toy company on the wall right by the entrance...

[Sabrinaset]

...I was asked to come up with a direction for Batgirl, something new that would give her a fresh platform. I gave it a ton of thought, and the direction I came up with was this (obviously this is the abridged version)...And after a while, she gets a new nickname...many people don't call her Batgirl anymore, she becomes to them, the Angel of the Bat. And for the first time, she's genuinely happy.

Okay, I joke about you a lot, but you know, I really, REALLY liked this idea. It's different, and you could have really pulled it off.

Okay, here's the thing. I am not religious. In fact, I am an atheist, and you guys know I'm liberal as all hell. But I too believe Conservatives and religious people have been represented cheaply and unfairly (sometimes stupidly) in comics. When I turned in my pitch/outline (and I wasn't pitching for the book, just being asked what direction I might see for it), the editor instantly thought I meant it in a condescending way...like she would be religious, but would be shown to be naive, or that it would be just a fad, from an intellectual standpoint.

What's really funny is that we had a thread awhile back in which someone asked if people were tired of the politics in comics, and I wish you had posted your opinion there. When I said pretty much what you did, I got shot doen six ways to Sunday.

But that's not what I meant at all. I meant that she REALLY believes, and isn't stupid OR ashamed. Is in fact proud of it. Quotes the bible. Asks questions about matters of faith and scripture. And that she would be using her very dark knowledge in a redemptive way. I felt, and feel, that religious readers are often spoken down to in comics, and this would be a character change that would be fascinating for non-believers as well. But no cheating. No smirking. No trying to put in a knowing wink to the parts of the audience who aren't themselves religious.

The weird thing is, the idea actually seemed sort of radical, apparently, as I don't believe they thought it could be carried off sincerely. I don't see why not...it's a character.

There you go. It's never been done before, so it can't be done now. Sometimes I gotta wonder if the people who make the decisions at the higher levels have anything called "vision" ... or ever had it.

I'm also reminded of an interview some network executive gave a couple years ago where someone said that no one there could possible write a good "conservative" because no one there really knew any.

Well, for what it's worth, Gail, I hope the executive pinheads don't get you down.

[Samurai]

I think the Angel of the Bat should form her own team with Cyborg Sean Hannity, metahuman Pat Robertson, and Buddy Jesus. No one could stop them! ;)

[kingdom2000]

The mistake in the concept was the "happy" part. Bats et al are not allowed happy for even a millisecond. Second mistake would be the religious part and the vigilante part. Doesn't really mix in a way that makes much since in an action oriented comic book. If truly found peace through some religion, regardless of what it is, she would have to give up her violent ways. The end result is the direction described would reach inherent walls in the story.

Having said that, it would be an excellent story arc or three to get to that brick wall. That is 12-18 issues at min, so don't really see why DC didn't consider it before the "Batgirl tosses last five years of story development and gives in to her childhood training" storyline. Basically the story arc in Robin completely invalidated her previous history so happen to own it, its great for memories but as canon, it might as well be shredded.

In the end I think it came down to wanting to current limit the number of Bat titles out there and Batgirl was one of those to go. DC editorial is more focused on developing the Batwoman character and to do that, they eliminated the Batgirl character. Gail's story arc would have been counter to such a plan. At least they did something with her, rather then what happened with Peter David's Supergirl who never existed in the new DCU history.

[Lunar Daydreamer]

Haven't visited here in a while ... but that is one heck of a pitch. I'm not religeous myself, but I would read that book. fabulous stuff!

[ChthonicSpirit]

What can I say that hasn't been said before?

That is a fabulous idea. Much better then the idea that the existance of a long-lost sister drives her to commit mass murder for great justice.

[Corrina]

The mistake in the concept was the "happy" part. Bats et al are not allowed happy for even a millisecond. Second mistake would be the religious part and the vigilante part. Doesn't really mix in a way that makes much since in an action oriented comic book. If truly found peace through some religion, regardless of what it is, she would have to give up her violent ways. The end result is the direction described would reach inherent walls in the story.


I don't think so. I think faith is a continuing process or so I've observed among those who practice their faith. Human beings are imperfect and it would be natural for Cassandra to question her actions and her beliefs every now and then, much as Batman questions why he does what he does and if it does Gotham City any good.

Batman has his faith, which is a belief that he can make a difference and protect Gotham. Dick Grayson and Tim Drake both have a belief in the same thing, that they make a difference. What made the Azrael character interesting is that he didn't *know* what his true purpose was, especially with all the Azrael brainwashing. His search to figure that out drove the best parts of his series.

Jim Gordon has faith in the law. Catwoman basically has faith in very little save the axiom of "protect your friends and your people." In a strange way, her faith rests solely on herself.

Cassandra operating under a Christian faith (and I've always felt the main lesson of Christian faith is redemption) could be fascinating because she would be wondering if her methods are in line with her faith--should she be non-violent like Martin Luther King or Gandhi or Pope John Paul II (all men with a strong and abiding faith in a loving God, even if they disagreed on the details) or are her methods as a vigilante acceptable?

It's a nice continuing emotional conflict and could drive a title for a long time.
And it fits in perfectly with Cassandra, who's been looking for a purpose to make up for her past sins since the character first appeared.

[Sharpandpointies]

It's an interesting idea. Judging from what everyone else is saying, it would pick up quite a few readers.

Regrettably, it doesn't do anything for me. But again, interesting idea, and shows imagination and creativity...which the current situation does not.

[Spackling Compound]

While it is speculation on my part I could see more Christians being interested in this version of Batgirl.

You may read comics but I'm certain you're in the minority of Christians who do.

Christians do have their own comics (re: Left Behind etc) but these are all indies, not from the Big Four.

Like with girls and women this is an untapped market in the industry that, if done correctly, could bring in tens of thousands or more new readers.

That's what I was getting at.
The Evangelical Christians may be looking for a comic book or at least would appreciate it but "Christians" have been reading comics for years. I'm die-hard Christian and haven't touched a "Christian" theme comic because of it's preachiness (remember the Archie Christian comics in the 70's?).

Gails' idea is good, I think. It almost sounds like she's rewriting Huntress, who was a Catholic for a long time and written as morally complicated. That somehow has been undone.

For me, a comic book representation of a Christian is as good as anything else. Four-colors and in bold strokes.
It's strange to take it seriously. For in the same world (DCU, for example) that there is Christ, there is also a myriad of gods and powers and even angels fight crime.
Just not a need for Christ in that world.

[malephoenix]

(I just went back over this; sorry it's written so poorly, but I haven't had good sleep in the last two days, and I'm about to go off to work on the holiday, so I'm not in the best or most literate of moods. Please forgive the choppiness of my post.)

Wow. This would have really been something.

It's been a hope of mine for years to be involved someday in creating Christian comics. Personally, I've dropped several TV shows and comics, etc. because of the content. So when I say "Christian comics," I don't mean books that are about angels and demons or about Revelation. I mean books that are safe for Christians to read, while being well-written. I have yet to read a Christian comic book on any shelf that wasn't severely lacking in either story or art.

Staying more on track and using comics as an example: it's always been so frustrating that the people in comics portrayed as "Christian" were villains (William Stryker-esque). And although to the largely non-religious community, pretty much any character having a deep religious faith is the same, here in the Bible belt (at least in the few areas I've lived in) there is a definitive difference between Catholic and Christian. Many churches of both faiths make effort to be differentiated for each other. (For example, I know of several Catholic churches that are very frustrated with the Da Vinci Code, but because of the particular premise, it doesn't bother a lot of local Christian churches because most of it's portrayal of religious beliefs are more about the Catholic faith.) Bringing it back around, there are no positive Christian characters in comics, and I don't know if it could even be done.

I'm a youth and family minister, and I've always avoided recommending comics to my youth because of how disrespectful they are towards Christianity. I would like to have seen the direction that Angel of the Bat would've taken, but yeah, it probably still would have offended most Christians I know. My roommate, for example, used to curse like the proverbial sailor and was rather sexual in his relationships. But after giving his life over to Christ, he stopped doing sexual things with his girlfriend, and although it was *really* difficult, he stopped swearing. I say that to say that it would be all kinds of frustrating to see a Cassie who converted, but only took bits and pieces of the Bible (which is what most of are accused of - often accurately - anyway). Maybe Gail's version of Christian or Catholic Batgirl wouldn't have cussed, but I know that if I recommended the book to some of my friends, and she ever muttered "Oh, my God" and took His name in vain, they would rather I not have recommended it at all. Let alone, how can a comic book character be sexually pure, and be written as encouraging others to be sexually pure without coming off as preachy and Holier-than-thou. It's already extremely difficult in reality. Again, we don't know how Gail's version would have been written; this is just speculation.

Finally, that brings up the point of controversy: Christian doesn't mean perfect. (Indeed, most of the posters I've read from here at CBR have had negative experience with Christians, and unfortunately, often their view of Christianity is rather justified. I'm sorry for all that. But at the same time, there is no better place for hypocrites than the church. Or prostitutes or thieves or whatever. Because the church is not a hotel for the saints, but a hospital for the sick. I just wish that fewer Christians out there keep on portraying like they're perfect; I'm not - I just try to work to be more like Christ. Simultaneously, not being perfect is not a license to go and indulge in whatever vice we choose.) It would be no problem for Cassie to have an ongoing spiritual development, but to just "convert" her, and she never goes any deeper with her faith would be an issue for Christians. She doesn't "have to be perfect" but if she just played pick-and-choose, she'd be a representation of what many non-Christian comic readers strongly dislike about Christians. In the current DC and Marvel universes, I don't see how any Christian character would not be confronted about the homosexuality issue. I don't see it as going well for either market; write her as seeing homosexuality the same as having sex without marriage - NOT to the extreme of "should burn in hell" - and that would anger most comic readers. Write her as promoting homosexuality, and although non-Christian comic readers would find it "an interesting read," it would turn away many Christians who might just be checking this book out.



All in all, I just really would have liked to see what would have happened...

[Nate Grey]

Gail, DC wasn't even interested in letting Cassandra return to her Kasumi identity if they weren't using your idea? Dang.

[PatrickG]

Nifty.

Funny thing is, I cooked up a Nightwing idea the other day. No clue if I'll ever have a chance to pitch it but my biggest fear is that I will and they'll be like, "Gail Simone should write it."

See... Problem is, it involves Bigfoot and the Queen of Fables. And in a very organic way, I think... But those two things, together, make it a Gail Simone book.

[Gail Simone]

(I just went back over this; sorry it's written so poorly, but I haven't had good sleep in the last two days, and I'm about to go off to work on the holiday, so I'm not in the best or most literate of moods. Please forgive the choppiness of my post.)

Wow. This would have really been something.

It's been a hope of mine for years to be involved someday in creating Christian comics. Personally, I've dropped several TV shows and comics, etc. because of the content. So when I say "Christian comics," I don't mean books that are about angels and demons or about Revelation. I mean books that are safe for Christians to read, while being well-written. I have yet to read a Christian comic book on any shelf that wasn't severely lacking in either story or art.

Staying more on track and using comics as an example: it's always been so frustrating that the people in comics portrayed as "Christian" were villains (William Stryker-esque). And although to the largely non-religious community, pretty much any character having a deep religious faith is the same, here in the Bible belt (at least in the few areas I've lived in) there is a definitive difference between Catholic and Christian. Many churches of both faiths make effort to be differentiated for each other. (For example, I know of several Catholic churches that are very frustrated with the Da Vinci Code, but because of the particular premise, it doesn't bother a lot of local Christian churches because most of it's portrayal of religious beliefs are more about the Catholic faith.) Bringing it back around, there are no positive Christian characters in comics, and I don't know if it could even be done.

I'm a youth and family minister, and I've always avoided recommending comics to my youth because of how disrespectful they are towards Christianity. I would like to have seen the direction that Angel of the Bat would've taken, but yeah, it probably still would have offended most Christians I know. My roommate, for example, used to curse like the proverbial sailor and was rather sexual in his relationships. But after giving his life over to Christ, he stopped doing sexual things with his girlfriend, and although it was *really* difficult, he stopped swearing. I say that to say that it would be all kinds of frustrating to see a Cassie who converted, but only took bits and pieces of the Bible (which is what most of are accused of - often accurately - anyway). Maybe Gail's version of Christian or Catholic Batgirl wouldn't have cussed, but I know that if I recommended the book to some of my friends, and she ever muttered "Oh, my God" and took His name in vain, they would rather I not have recommended it at all. Let alone, how can a comic book character be sexually pure, and be written as encouraging others to be sexually pure without coming off as preachy and Holier-than-thou. It's already extremely difficult in reality. Again, we don't know how Gail's version would have been written; this is just speculation.

Finally, that brings up the point of controversy: Christian doesn't mean perfect. (Indeed, most of the posters I've read from here at CBR have had negative experience with Christians, and unfortunately, often their view of Christianity is rather justified. I'm sorry for all that. But at the same time, there is no better place for hypocrites than the church. Or prostitutes or thieves or whatever. Because the church is not a hotel for the saints, but a hospital for the sick. I just wish that fewer Christians out there keep on portraying like they're perfect; I'm not - I just try to work to be more like Christ. Simultaneously, not being perfect is not a license to go and indulge in whatever vice we choose.) It would be no problem for Cassie to have an ongoing spiritual development, but to just "convert" her, and she never goes any deeper with her faith would be an issue for Christians. She doesn't "have to be perfect" but if she just played pick-and-choose, she'd be a representation of what many non-Christian comic readers strongly dislike about Christians. In the current DC and Marvel universes, I don't see how any Christian character would not be confronted about the homosexuality issue. I don't see it as going well for either market; write her as seeing homosexuality the same as having sex without marriage - NOT to the extreme of "should burn in hell" - and that would anger most comic readers. Write her as promoting homosexuality, and although non-Christian comic readers would find it "an interesting read," it would turn away many Christians who might just be checking this book out.



All in all, I just really would have liked to see what would have happened...


Great post, thanks so much!

Gail

[yeoman]

The mistake in the concept was the "happy" part. Bats et al are not allowed happy for even a millisecond. Second mistake would be the religious part and the vigilante part. Doesn't really mix in a way that makes much since in an action oriented comic book. If truly found peace through some religion, regardless of what it is, she would have to give up her violent ways. The end result is the direction described would reach inherent walls in the story.

I t can work. At the heart of Cassandra's character was her seeking redemption.

For a good view of a similar scenario check out the Confessions arc of Astro City.

[yeoman]

Bringing it back around, there are no positive Christian characters in comics, and I don't know if it could even be done.


Well, Nightcrawler, though it's not mentioned much anymore. More recent versions of Wolvesbane. The Confessor and the Crossbreed in Astro City.

I'll grant you there arn't many, but they are out there.

[Gilda Dent]

I didn't care so much about Montoya being outted as a lesbian as what the heck they were going to do with the fact that she liked women, and how it impacted the way she functioned from day to day. Apparently, not much has resulted from that, except for her being with scantily clad women.

That's the thing. Orientation doesn't necessarily affect much about how one lives theiar day to day life. It certainly can, as there are lesbians and gay men who make that identity part of everything they do, but they're a very visible minority. The invisible majority are just like everyone else in most ways in how we interact with the world outside of romantic and sexual relationships. This was one of the things I liked about this arc, how her being revealed as lesbian didn't mean she had to be shown behaving any differently in her everyday life.

Gilda

[Corrina]

Actually, it seem to me that the way Rucka wrote "Half a Life," that it DID change the way she lived her life and did her job. It totally changed her personality from a careful, smart cop to a fly-off-the-handle, simmering with rage all the time cop.

I made a joke over on the Infinite Crisis board that apparently being a lesbian makes you stupid but that was meant to insult the way Rucka changed her personality, not what I believe, which is that being outed would be difficult and incredibly stressful, especially as Montoya's family is very religious and does believe homosexuality is a sin (a part of the arc I thought was quite well done) but I don't think that it would change her essential personality, which is that of coolness under fire--a personality she displayed when her family was attacked and near death, when she was initially kidnapped in No Man's Land, and when her best friend, Sarah Essen died.

[Gilda Dent]

Actually, it seem to me that the way Rucka wrote "Half a Life," that it DID change the way she lived her life and did her job. It totally changed her personality from a careful, smart cop to a fly-off-the-handle, simmering with rage all the time cop.

I made a joke over on the Infinite Crisis board that apparently being a lesbian makes you stupid but that was meant to insult the way Rucka changed her personality, not what I believe, which is that being outed would be difficult and incredibly stressful, especially as Montoya's family is very religious and does believe homosexuality is a sin (a part of the arc I thought was quite well done) but I don't think that it would change her essential personality, which is that of coolness under fire--a personality she displayed when her family was attacked and near death, when she was initially kidnapped in No Man's Land, and when her best friend, Sarah Essen died.

Good point. It's been a while since I've read that one; apparently I need to refresh my memory.

My main point, though, still stands. The revelation that a character is homosexual doesn't have to mean a major change in how that character is represented in non-romantic sections of the character's presentation.

Gilda

[Gilda Dent]

So instead of getting a Christian Batgirl we get a lesbian Batwoman.

Thanks DC. Doing it for the kids one more time.

I doubt it was a case of rejecting one in favor of the other.

At first glance, I'm not sure if Angel of the Bat appeals to me, but it would depend greatly on the excecution, and because it's Gail, I'd give it a chance.

Also, though we've been through this before, I'll reiterate that I think it's good for kids to see positive portrayals of homosexual characters in comics.

Gilda

[Cam63]

Everything is made better with cute robots, tragically unfunny comic relief and obnoxious 8 year old kids who talk like 25 year olds.

[PatrickG]

I was thinking... Gail on a ZAURIEL miniseries, any takers?

I'm thinking it should be a quirky buddy book with tons of potential for comedy, on the order of a cop buddy movie.

Maybe Zauriel and a new Azrael? An angel and a guy/girl from a whackjob cult who thinks he's the incarnation of an angel.

Toss in some oddball appearances by Neron and Bizarro's partner-in-crime Scorch. Max OUT the iconography to make it a really accessible concept and then hold onto people with quirky, believable characterization.

[Corrina]

Also, though we've been through this before, I'll reiterate that I think it's good for kids to see positive portrayals of homosexual characters in comics.
Gilda

I absolutely agree.

[PatrickG]

I doubt it was a case of rejecting one in favor of the other.

At first glance, I'm not sure if Angel of the Bat appeals to me, but it would depend greatly on the excecution, and because it's Gail, I'd give it a chance.

Also, though we've been through this before, I'll reiterate that I think it's good for kids to see positive portrayals of homosexual characters in comics.

Gilda

I agree absolutely. At the same time, however, I hope we move past this "ooh, lesbians in lingerie!" phase.

I mean, if you look at homosexuals in comics, you have:

Northstar, who contracted HIV and then learned that what he had was instead a "faerie virus"!

A few butch cops.

And now... A lot of bad girl lesbian femme fatales.

I mean, I'll be interested to see where they take this new Batwoman... I always liked Kathy so I'll support this, especially if Bette is still her niece and gets tied in.

But I would much rather see a gay Legionnaire than a character that is made more marketable by virtue of their gayness. Especially if the target audience looks to be heterosexual men.

I would rather see characters who happen to be gay than characters who are lauded for being gay.

[Gilda Dent]

I agree absolutely. At the same time, however, I hope we move past this "ooh, lesbians in lingerie!" phase.

I mean, if you look at homosexuals in comics, you have:

Northstar, who contracted HIV and then learned that what he had was instead a "faerie virus"!

A few butch cops.

And now... A lot of bad girl lesbian femme fatales.

I mean, I'll be interested to see where they take this new Batwoman... I always liked Kathy so I'll support this, especially if Bette is still her niece and gets tied in.

But I would much rather see a gay Legionnaire than a character that is made more marketable by virtue of their gayness. Especially if the target audience looks to be heterosexual men.

I would rather see characters who happen to be gay than characters who are lauded for being gay.

And Karma in The New Mutants, Sunfire in Exiles (and Spider-Woman/Mary Jane on one world), Shrinking Violet and Light Lass in the Bierbaum Legion, all lesbian without that being the core of their character representation, Katchoo and Francine (bisexual, but it still fits the basic idea) in Strangers in Paradise.

We don't know quite yet how Batwoman will be portrayed, so I'm reserving judgement. Marketing always focuses on the most sensationalistic element, and doesn't always reflect actual representation in the finished work.

Gilda

[kingdom2000]

Good point. It's been a while since I've read that one; apparently I need to refresh my memory.

My main point, though, still stands. The revelation that a character is homosexual doesn't have to mean a major change in how that character is represented in non-romantic sections of the character's presentation.

Gilda

Considering how horribly the bat titles handle romance and personal lives in general, they should just continue that practice for Batwoman, ie forget have personal lives and sexual urges.

[Mia]

(Pardon the intrusion.)

It’s not a bad idea in the abstract. But it just doesn’t work for me. You see the whole process of forgiveness does not disqualify people not paying for their crimes. It just means ‘release’ or rather not holding on to the resentment or bad feelings.


Christianity is often termed an anti-religion. Religion is nothing but a rituals, ceremonies and system of belief. Very often Christians term Christianity as a ‘life style’ or a ‘way of life’. And as such I would rather see how Christianity has affected the characters life. Such as in the issue of Batman where Batgirl II (ie. Huntress) after a group of men are killed. Kneels to pray for their souls. Or Daredevil going to confession. Or Doctor Midnight going to church for solace. I think it’s more effective and more powerful. Than someone reading the Bible and jumping up and saying “Euraka I found it!” Christianity is not rocket science, but it’s often more complex than that. The situation, as described above, sounds way too cliché and trite. And, respectfully in that enactment Batgirl sounds like a zealot. To me anyway.





P.S. I had no idea that you were an atheist, it sheds a new light on certain stories.

[Gail Simone]

I was thinking... Gail on a ZAURIEL miniseries, any takers?

I'm thinking it should be a quirky buddy book with tons of potential for comedy, on the order of a cop buddy movie.

Maybe Zauriel and a new Azrael? An angel and a guy/girl from a whackjob cult who thinks he's the incarnation of an angel.

Toss in some oddball appearances by Neron and Bizarro's partner-in-crime Scorch. Max OUT the iconography to make it a really accessible concept and then hold onto people with quirky, believable characterization.

I love Zauriel.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

"P.S. I had no idea that you were an atheist, it sheds a new light on certain stories."

Only if that's the interpretation you're dying to have.

Gail

[PatrickG]

I love Zauriel.

Gail

Me too. But I can't see him having longterm viability except as a co-star or ensemble cast member. He's priceless as a straightman, much like many "fish-out-of-water" characters are. Or he could be bound to a human form, ala Thor. But as it stands, I worry he's too mythological to sustain much interest.

I think that's the problem with Wonder Woman and Thor and (loathe as I am to admit it) Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer.

I am curious about Asmodeus being kept in Heaven because Hell wasn't considered an effective prison. I'm also curious about Zauriel's place in the scheme of things since he stood up to the Spectre once. There's something THERE but it needs an angle in order to be told, I'm afraid.

Oh! On the subject of "mythology", I have the feeling that Grant Morrison may be delving into his "Fifth World" concept that DC One Million seemed to tie into.

I'd kinda dig seeing the BIRDS OF PREY ONE MILLION if you ever have the chance/need for an off-issue.

There's already a technological internet analogue with the Headnet concept that would suit Oracle well. (In fact, I think I recall Oracle having a One Million counterpart.) There's a Huntress analogue, Owlwoman, who looks like the Watchmen's Owlman and is half descended from the Owlman (antimatter Crime Syndicate) dynasty and half-descended from the Batman dynasty, I think. I think you'd have an inventive, funny take on a future Birds of Prey

Since we have a Black Canary and a Jade Canary, maybe they have multicolored Canaries. Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red Canaries! Or maybe they're like the Powerpuff Girls! One has a sonic scream, one has a luminscent scream and one has an electromagnetic scream! Or like the Power Rangers with giant bird mechs that merge to form a giant robot!

I love the corners of comic book universes that invite us to color outside the lines wildly and you're one of the best at it when you're given the opportunity.

[Damo]

Team Zauriel up with Jason Todd. Hilarity ensues.

Z: "No... seriously... a punch brought you back to life?"
JT: "Look at me, I'm pretending to be you!"
Z: "That's a bad idea, I don't think those plastic wings will keep you aloft... Well, see, there you go, I was right."

[Larry Dixon]

I have an outline laying around from a team-up between Zauriel and John Constantine. Odd Couple Supreme.

BTW, I believe Zauriel was designed by our very own cute-n-cuddly Howard Porter.

Very interesting thread. *nods* I'll comment by saying that in my experience, homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships aren't about sex, or even sexuality, but about the interpersonal feelings between the people involved. It's the pressure, prejudice, and meddling from outside that generally mucks things up.

Also, that in the disaster rescue and hurricane relief work I've done, the non-Christian homosexuals I knew were right in there doing a whole lot more, giving their all with a lot more kindness and love for their fellow humans, than most of the people I encountered with Jesus T-shirts and Bible quotes. And I've met a lot of gay pagans that are better "Christians" by their actions than the scripture-quoting biblethumpers around town. I'm also friends with a devout Catholic and a couple of preachers who feel the same way.

Holy is as holy does, and what someone does with their genitals really doesn't matter to me.

In fact---I don't know if any of you have looked at it this way before---but I personally find hyper-religious total strangers' undying obsession with what OTHER people are doing with their genitals to be pretty frickin' perverse.

Gay people are people first, and that's how I like seeing them portrayed in comics---people that aren't there to prove a point about "Now I Am Writing A Gay Character!"

So, similarly, I figure the key to writing a compelling Christian character is not to approach it as "Now I Am Writing A Christian Character!" and packing in the scripture quotes like a bad X-Men story would pack in random Russian words to make Colossus "convincing." The key is skillfully and heartfully writing a compelling character first and foremost.

Just a few opinions from me. Hopefully it'll be of some use.

[malephoenix]

Well, Nightcrawler, though it's not mentioned much anymore. More recent versions of Wolvesbane. The Confessor and the Crossbreed in Astro City.

I'll grant you there arn't many, but they are out there.

I'm not trying to split hairs, here. I'm just saying, for me and where I live, there is a definite separation between Christian and Catholic. I know it may look the same from a lot of veiwpoints, but it means a lot to me that preachers don't try to be unmarried like Catholic priests, and that we pray to God and not God and Mary and saints, etc. I'm not saying that as dogging the Catholic church; I'm just saying - there aren't positive Christian characters.

I admit, I'm not sure about the Confessor and Crossbreed. I'll look into them. But I know that I've seen Kurt take God's name in vain like it was no thing, and Wolvesbane, if I understand correctly, was in a sexually active relationship with some previous boyfriend. (Yeah, Christians aren't perfect, and yeah, you said, "more recent versions" - so I'll check it out. I'm just saying, it sucks to have NO ONE in the medium you enjoy so much - no one in comics like you.)

[Siegzon]

Malaphoenix's earlier post had it right I think. The only thing I might add is that there is a different context when dealing with religous matters. Blasphemy would turn off some people permanently. This shows up most prominently in the news in reference to the Mohommad pictures, yet Christians who have a personal relationship with Jesus would also be deeply wounded by a potrayal of Him that sets out to degrade. You don't have to look hard to see these depictions on TV even. I'm somewhat surprised Christians aren't more vocal or maybe I'm not listening in the right places.

I am not at all saying the author would ever do something like that or not. It is another dimension to consider that I think would call for compassionate consideration when writing or portraying theological matters where people center their heart.

I would be interested in seeing a serious portrayal of Christian life, of a character like the real life St. Kolbe, someone so radical that they live radically, choose radically for love, even to their own detriment.

Maybe like the reverse of John Ostrander's Grimjack, where the situation deteriorated yet the harsh environment triggered only further sanctification rather than "the dark" that claimed old Grimjack.

peace

[yeoman]

Northstar, who contracted HIV and then learned that what he had was instead a "faerie virus"!


Pasrt of me wants to know when this happened. The rest is still recovering from the DEEP HURTING!

[WatsonGlenn]

Also, that in the disaster rescue and hurricane relief work I've done, the non-Christian homosexuals I knew were right in there doing a whole lot more, giving their all with a lot more kindness and love for their fellow humans, than most of the people I encountered with Jesus T-shirts and Bible quotes.

I cannot let this pass without at least a word. I have worked with Habitat for Humanity and most of the houses are built by Christians. Most of the charity I have seen and participated in comes from Christians. Homosexuals are not better than Christians. Christians are not better than gays. Lets not pretend otherwise.

[Gail Simone]

Great post, Larry. Who wrote it for you?

;-)

Gail

[yeoman]

I'm not trying to split hairs, here. I'm just saying, for me and where I live, there is a definite separation between Christian and Catholic.

Yeah... but Rahne and Kurt *are* both Catholic.

Thoguh I grant you I don't know that the Crossbreed ever mention any denomination and I only think the Confessor was Catholic.

I admit, I'm not sure about the Confessor and Crossbreed. I'll look into them. But I know that I've seen Kurt take God's name in vain like it was no thing,

Which, given is character, would be the writer's fault. I've also seen Kurt react negatively to other characters doing this.


and Wolvesbane, if I understand correctly, was in a sexually active relationship with some previous boyfriend. (Yeah, Christians aren't perfect, and yeah, you said, "more recent versions" - so I'll check it out. I'm just saying, it sucks to have NO ONE in the medium you enjoy so much - no one in comics like you.)

That was recent. I can't recall if Rahne and Josh ever slept together, but there were other issues imbedded in that. It was a relationship she shouldn't have been in for a lot of reasons, not all of them faith based.

Hmmm... Actually, I may be reaching. While she was making a lot of changes towards the end, she kinda got cut off and her faith never really got back into it, so maybe she's a poor example. Unless David does somethign with her in X-factor.

Actually, given Rahne's background, even when her faith is written in a positive light, the bits with Reverend Craig kinda overshadow that.

[Sabrinaset]

Great post, Larry. Who wrote it for you?


I vote Devin Grayson.

[yeoman]

And Karma in The New Mutants, Sunfire in Exiles (and Spider-Woman/Mary Jane on one world), Shrinking Violet and Light Lass in the Bierbaum Legion, all lesbian without that being the core of their character representation, Katchoo and Francine (bisexual, but it still fits the basic idea) in Strangers in Paradise.

We don't know quite yet how Batwoman will be portrayed, so I'm reserving judgement. Marketing always focuses on the most sensationalistic element, and doesn't always reflect actual representation in the finished work.

Gilda

Northstar was, IIRC, originally conceived as being gay, without that being his primary character trait. And when he's properly written it still isn't. His defining traits are that he's a perfectionist snob.

[Gilda Dent]

I'm not trying to split hairs, here. I'm just saying, for me and where I live, there is a definite separation between Christian and Catholic. I know it may look the same from a lot of veiwpoints, but it means a lot to me that preachers don't try to be unmarried like Catholic priests, and that we pray to God and not God and Mary and saints, etc. I'm not saying that as dogging the Catholic church; I'm just saying - there aren't positive Christian characters.

Rather than a separation between Christian and Catholic, you're describing a separation between Protestant and Catholic, the two main divisions of Christianity. There are other Christian Churches that claim no allegiance to either the Catholic Church or the Protestant reformation also Churches of Christ, The First Christian Church, Unity, Univeralist Unitarian, MCC, various non-denominational local churches, LDS, and still others that straddle the line between them such as Anglicans and Episopalians, but we're all Christians.

I admit, I'm not sure about the Confessor and Crossbreed. I'll look into them. But I know that I've seen Kurt take God's name in vain like it was no thing, and Wolvesbane, if I understand correctly, was in a sexually active relationship with some previous boyfriend. (Yeah, Christians aren't perfect, and yeah, you said, "more recent versions" - so I'll check it out. I'm just saying, it sucks to have NO ONE in the medium you enjoy so much - no one in comics like you.)

David Qin in Strangers in Paradise is a devout Christian whose faith helped reform him from a very troubled past and does affect how he deals with life and his relationships.

Gilda

[Larry Dixon]

I cannot let this pass without at least a word. I have worked with Habitat for Humanity and most of the houses are built by Christians. Most of the charity I have seen and participated in comes from Christians. Homosexuals are not better than Christians. Christians are not better than gays. Lets not pretend otherwise.

I'm with you on that. I do Hab stuff too.

And coincidentally, today we at High Flight were all having a chat about how cool Jimmy Carter is!

[Gilda Dent]

Homosexuals are not better than Christians. Christians are not better than gays. Lets not pretend otherwise.

Glad to hear you say this, and I agree completely. I'd add that more than a few of those gays are Christians and more than a few of the Christians are gay. They aren't mutually exclusive conditions.

Gilda

[Magneto_X]

I was thinking... Gail on a ZAURIEL miniseries, any takers?

I'm thinking it should be a quirky buddy book with tons of potential for comedy, on the order of a cop buddy movie.

Maybe Zauriel and a new Azrael? An angel and a guy/girl from a whackjob cult who thinks he's the incarnation of an angel.

Toss in some oddball appearances by Neron and Bizarro's partner-in-crime Scorch. Max OUT the iconography to make it a really accessible concept and then hold onto people with quirky, believable characterization.

How about Zauriel teaming up with Booster Gold?!? :D

[malephoenix]

.....
I vote Devin Grayson.

ROFL...

[malephoenix]

Rather than a separation between Christian and Catholic, you're describing a separation between Protestant and Catholic, the two main divisions of Christianity. There are other Christian Churches that claim no allegiance to either the Catholic Church or the Protestant reformation also Churches of Christ, The First Christian Church, Unity, Univeralist Unitarian, MCC, various non-denominational local churches, LDS, and still others that straddle the line between them such as Anglicans and Episopalians, but we're all Christians.
Gilda

I understand the history, but I meant it in a contemporary sense. But I am sincere in describing the differences between Catholic and Christian. Again, I'm not dumping on anyone; but it is commonplace in the buckle of the Bible belt for these two to distinquish themselves from each other. I have several Christian friends who are not Catholic, as well as a couple of very particular Catholic friends who are proud to be Catholic and would point out that they are not Christian, should it even slip in conversation.

Intelligent post.

[The Xenos]

Ugh. That's an interesting idea about Batgirl, Gail, but I don't know if I really would be interested. Still better than the actual crap that appears to be happening now. At the same time it almost sounds a lot like what happened to Azrael, white cotume and all. So I rather am not

Of course, why Christianity? Why not Buddhism or Islam? I myself and Christian, but am interested in those and they are underrepresented and misunderstood. Islam, especially, where (like Chrisianity) close minded extremeists take its name to insane goals and are noticed for it.

Also, I find it kinda disturbing that you called yourself an athiest Gail. I ahve friends who have said that, though from other comments they seem more agnostic. I find it disturbing when people just write off any higher power in the universe.

To be honest, I am disgusted with many ideas of God in the western world. Ha. My own concept of God is so kinda far out, it might be labeled as athiest by many in this country. While I belive in the very confusing situation of Christ divinvity, I also belive that God quite above any real understanding and is made very trivial by many concrete concepts of him that you hear in this country.

So please, just because it's hard to find a description of God you like, don't give up. Actually, to be honest, I belive there is no real way to describe God to any decent extent anyway. Still, I think people need to look in reverence to this Divine Ultimate that is called God.

Rather than a separation between Christian and Catholic, you're describing a separation between Protestant and Catholic, the two main divisions of Christianity. There are other Christian Churches that claim no allegiance to either the Catholic Church or the Protestant reformation also Churches of Christ, The First Christian Church, Unity, Univeralist Unitarian, MCC, various non-denominational local churches, LDS, and still others that straddle the line between them such as Anglicans and Episopalians, but we're all Christians.

Why... why does everyone forget the Eastern Orthodox? We're the orginal Church from which the Catholics broke off from (or vice versa if you ask them). Of course, there are also the Coptics who split off even before that, but I honestly don't much about them.

Also, this reminds me of how I find this whole DaVinci code thing funny. While we don't get into the interpetation of Mary and Jesus having kids, we do belive she was an important follower of Jesus, as important as any of the twelve. The Catholics have even admited, I think as far back as the 1960s, that they invented crap like making her a whore. Why no one has brought this up, I don't know. Why even Tom Hanks, who is Orthodox, doesn't bring up how his Church opposed hundreds of years of Vatican misinformation, I don't know. I'm severly disapointed in him for not doing so.

Of course, there are many things in the Gnostic Gospels (many ideas that are brought up here (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5422695)) that also seem like Orthodox teachings. I don't think you need to look to the Gnostic Gospels even to find many of those things. I think by just looking at the four Gospels and ignoring wrong interpretations of them you can find many of these teachings of Christ. I think the Western Churches have missed a lot and I really have to wonder how some consider themselves Christians if they ignore so much history. If anything, this confusion of the DaVinci code may show how the Western Christian church, or at least the Catholics, have become so diconnected from history and Christ. Pope John the 23rd tried to fix things, and God bless reformists like him in the church, but later leaders almost seem to try and ignore his wonderful changes. Hmm... kinda like Morrison's X-men.

Eh. I just find it so funny that so many people are talking about how the Catholics may have been wrong about Mary Magdelene when our church has been saying this for centuries. Oh and let's not get started on their wong attitudes about the Holy Spirit, which they now say is from Christ and God 'the Father'. Even the old testement may have placed as a feminine force. "Sophia, Wisdom." as we say in our Divine Liturgy.

Oh and let's not forget that Catholics are the only ones still crazily insisting on not letting priests marry. Though we still have some rules about that, we pretty much allow it. It's part of the individual church communities. Argh. The Catholic Church frustrates me when they insist on things that really have nothing to do with Christian tradition as if they were instituted by Christ himself. In reality, we don't know anything to that degree of certainty.

Hell, sometimes I almost feel that things I've read about what my church teaches are closer to Buddhism than Western Christianity. That God is a person you can know about and we know what exacly 'He' wants is a falsehood. God 'the Father' is really unkowable. Like I said, the Holy Spirit which predeeds from 'Him' (and I use that gender term loosely because how does an Ultimate Being have gender?) is often atribued with the feminine. Though even there it's more for poetic reasons then anything concrete.

Crap. I jsut went on another "Huzzah, I'm Orthodox!" rant, didn't I?

[Cam63]

Part of me wants to believe, I admit.

The rest reckons religion is silly.

[Larry Dixon]

But you will always have beer, Cam.

It isn't just that you believe in VB. VB believes in you.

[Lester C.]

Am I the only pessimist on the board? Maybe it's my imagination but whenever there is any radical shift in any character people tend to complain about it rather vocally.

[Cam63]

But you will always have beer, Cam.

It isn't just that you believe in VB. VB believes in you.

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Larry.

As for VB believing in me, it's just an alcoholic beverage capable of no conscious thought.

You may need help, Birdman.

[Lester C.]

Is it wrong of me to admit I only drink alcohol if its been put in a blender with ice cream, bananas, chocolate syrup and ice?

[Cam63]

Am I the only pessimist on the board? Maybe it's my imagination but whenever there is any radical shift in any character people tend to complain about it rather vocally.

I hated when Wolverine went undercover as a " Flashdancer " in legwarmers during an X Men storyline in '83 and liked it.

OK, I made that shit up.

[Cam63]

Is it wrong of me to admit I only drink alcohol if its been put in a blender with ice cream, bananas, chocolate syrup and ice?

That's OK if you drink it in a broken glass after a fight to the death, Les.

...No, drink it anyway you like to.

Just no operating heavy machinery, drive/ride/fly/captain a vehicle or attempting kareoke.

[Damo]

I can't believe no one's brought up what would probably be the "Evil Earth-3" version of an "Angel of the Bat" storyline.

Nightcrawler, portrayed pretty much from day one as a very devout Christian.

He even becomes a Jesuit priest.

Then comes Chuck Austin. Nightcrawler rejects his priesthood. And then his ordainment turns out to be a plot by the Christian, anti-mutant hate group "The Church of Humanity" to one day install him as the Pope disguised as an ordinary human, then reveal his true appearance, thereby destroying the faith of all Catholics worldwide. And there was stuff about staging the "rapture" using communion wafers that would incinerate their eaters. Oh, and then it turns out that Nightcrawler's father is actually the devil, who is actually just a really old mutant, and that all the stories ever told about angels and hell and all of that junk (sarcasm) are all in fact about mutants, and angels are an ancient race of winged mutants, and I could go on but why bother...

Seriously, I know it drew very harsh criticism, but the thing is it did get printed, and was in one of Marvel's biggest selling titles. I think it's very unfortunate that we can get something like this rubbish, but companies pass on ideas like "Angel of the Bat" in favor of "let's do that Jason Todd thing again". Depressing.

[SensorBoy]

Yeah... but Rahne and Kurt *are* both Catholic.


.


Negative. Wolfsbane has always been a member of the Free Church of Scotland (aka "The Kirk"). Less fun-loving than the Primitive Baptists...

[SensorBoy]

Oh and let's not forget that Catholics are the only ones still crazily insisting on not letting priests marry. Though we still have some rules about that, we pretty much allow it. It's part of the individual church communities.


the Orthodox do not allow Priests to marry, either. Orthodox (and some Catholic sui juris Churches, such as the Ruthenians) men who are
-already- married may be ordained to the Priesthood (but not the Episcopacy). Once ordained no voluntary change in status is allowed. A widowed Priest may not remarry, for instance.

[The Xenos]

I can't believe no one's brought up what would probably be the "Evil Earth-3" version of an "Angel of the Bat" storyline.


Hmm... I am unfamiliar with this...


Nightcrawler, portrayed pretty much from day one as a very devout Christian.

He even becomes a Jesuit priest.

Then comes Chuck Austin. Nightcrawler rejects his priesthood. And then his ordainment turns out to be a plot by the Christian, anti-mutant hate group "The Church of Humanity" to one day install him as the Pope disguised as an ordinary human, then reveal his true appearance, thereby destroying the faith of all Catholics worldwide. And there was stuff about staging the "rapture" using communion wafers that would incinerate their eaters. Oh, and then it turns out that Nightcrawler's father is actually the devil, who is actually just a really old mutant, and that all the stories ever told about angels and hell and all of that junk (sarcasm) are all in fact about mutants, and angels are an ancient race of winged mutants, and I could go on but why bother...

Seriously, I know it drew very harsh criticism, but the thing is it did get printed, and was in one of Marvel's biggest selling titles. I think it's very unfortunate that we can get something like this rubbish, but companies pass on ideas like "Angel of the Bat" in favor of "let's do that Jason Todd thing again". Depressing.

UGH. Thanks for reminding me of that crap. I sadly think Joe Casey was involved with some of that too. It was soon after that I stopped getting the main X-Books save for Whedon and Cassidey's. Lord knows I wish I stopped sooner. That storyline was just plain weird and an insult to anyone who knew about the organization Christianity. It didn't even make sense. Was it affiliated with the actual Catholic church or some radical offshoot? It sounded like the latter, but why would Kurt then be invovled with it. Ugh. It was a big insulting mess. It made Dan Brown's DaVinci code sound like a Vatican press release.

the Orthodox do not allow Priests to marry, either. Orthodox (and some Catholic sui juris Churches, such as the Ruthenians) men who are
-already- married may be ordained to the Priesthood (but not the Episcopacy). Once ordained no voluntary change in status is allowed. A widowed Priest may not remarry, for instance.
Yeah, hence my complaint that we still have rules about that. I still think we have some issues to work out on that. I think the Catholics have a bunch more.

Now the Episcopalian Protestant Church is looser on this, right? They even have female priests and bishops, right? I think that's them. To be honest, I really do not understand what's wrong with that and I really applaude them for commiting to what I think is very correct reform.

[Spackling Compound]

Crap. I jsut went on another "Huzzah, I'm Orthodox!" rant, didn't I?
Actually, you said you're close to atheist. Which makes you more forgivable in your misunderstanding of Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

You embarrass Orthodoxy otherwise.

[Mia]

Actually the correct quote was:


To be honest, I am disgusted with many ideas of God in the western world. Ha. My own concept of God is so kinda far out, it might be labeled as athiest by many in this country.



Not that he was close to atheist.

[Spackling Compound]

Actually the correct quote was:



Not that he was close to atheist.
Funny how we read what we want to read.

Thanks, Mia.

I still stand by the second portion of my comments.

Orthodoxy does battle with Catholicism on many fronts. However, the greatest enemy of the Catholic Church is an ignorant Catholic and the least threatening is an ignorant non-Catholic.

[jerrymcl89]

It's too bad that DC didn't choose to go with this, or some other plotline that in some way showed they have respect for the character. Given Cass's background, she most likely has had no exposure to religion at all, so I think she'd be a particularly intriguing vehicle for exploring it.

[Siegzon]

Now the Episcopalian Protestant Church is looser on this, right? They even have female priests and bishops, right? I think that's them. To be honest, I really do not understand what's wrong with that and I really applaude them for commiting to what I think is very correct reform.

As I understand it:
Christ chose His priesthood. He chose 12 males. The Church is subordinate to Christ, not the other way around. If you believe Christ to be less than God, I can see where you might want to update the mores of the Church to match your mores; however, since the Church holds that Christ is God, they seek to follow the Way and the Truth He set. Simply put, the Church does not feel that they have the authority to change the prioesthood instituted by Christ, their Founder and their God.

Hope that helped.

[SensorBoy]

Problem with Female "Priests" (wouldnt it be "Priestesses"?), at least for us Roman Catholic and Orthodox folks, is that the Church has no -positive- feedback from Scripture -or- Tradition.

I.e. Nothing in the New Testament references Christ* conferring the Episcopacy (Bishop-status) on a Female, as he did the 12 guys. Nor any of them conferring the Presbyterate (Priesthood) on a female once they split up to spread the word.

Closest thing you get is some vague reference to some women who basically took care (i.e., hid from angry mobs) of Paul, day-to-day, while he focused on preaching. Depending on how you read it, they -might- be Diaconi (Deaconesses).

One of the major things which seperates Orthodox and Roman Catholics from Protestant denominations is Apostolic Succession. That being the continual line of succession through the Bishops. Bishop John of Pensacola-Tallahasee can trace his Holy Orders (laying on of hands to Ordain) back to one of the Apostles, through the Bishops who ordained him.

Once Succession is lost/disrupted (as with the Anglicans/Episcopalians), that's it. No Sacraments (except for Baptism, which is Universal if done with the Trinitarian Formula "In the Name of the Father, the Son, etc...") are valid from Priests who are ordained after the break. Hence, anyone ordained by a Female Bishop would be right out.

The Anglicans altered the words of consecration used in their Ordinations, back in the 19th Century, enough to invalidate their Orders. The Orthodox immediately called them on it, quickly followed by us Catholics.

I can, when in need, recieve Communion from an Orthodox Priest. They in turn can, in need, recieve Communion from a Roman Catholic Priest. Neither can validly recieve from an Anglican/Episcopalian Priest. No valid Orders = no valid Sacrament.

Complicated, aint it? It was addressed not too long ago (1994?), by JP II in the encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

I'll take a swipe at the Episcopalians now, and point out that, since ordaining their 1st Female Bishop, their numbers have taken a nosedive. It was forced on a majority who didnt believe in it, by a minority who held the votes. They had had Female Priests for a while and it wasnt much of a problem because folks could just not attend those parishes. Female Bishops, OTOH, disrupted the validity of the Sacraments. Folks left in large numbers, and a bunch of parishes lit out on their own under the care of the Archdiocese of Rwanda (!!!). Then the Gay Bishop....

If they were -going- to have a Gay Bishop, they could have at least picked one who -wasnt- an out and out moron. Even the folks who were not that bothered about a homosexual Ordinary quickly learned to loathe the man.



*Christ did quite a few things that would have made ordaining a woman seem tame in comparison. If He didnt do it, the Church figures he had a reason.

[titanfan]

Very interesting concept. I'd definitely give it a try, although to be honest--I think it would be too radical in the mainstream comics to be that successful.

Okay, here's the thing. I am not religious. In fact, I am an atheist, and you guys know I'm liberal as all hell.

I know, I was shocked when I found this out because you wrote Huntress so well. Then I thought about it some more and realized that just because you are an atheist doesn't mean you can't understand religion. The concept of religion--and faith--is pretty simple.

As for not many Christians/Catholics in the DCU--what exactly are we looking for? They seem to be all over the place. Off the top of my head: Zauriel, Nightwing, Nightshade, Father Craemer, The Hayoth, Blue Devil. Given that deities walk the Earth in the DCU, I would suspect that Christianity actually had a hard time making significant ground.

In my personal opinion, there are certain types of personalities who would naturally gravitate towards religion. I actually do see Cass as one of these people. Batman too actually. Somewhere out there in the multiverse, there was a Bruce Wayne who didn't suffer any major tragedy and became a religious zealot philanthropist.

[blackcanary_416]

I like the pitch, Batgirl was one of my favorite characters but some where along the line I saw the villain part coming from a mile away and hoped that I was wrong about that. I would have loved to see the white costume, I do think there needs to be at least one character that doesn't have a dismal side to them. I would like to see more Christianity in the DCU and like religious concepts.

[Tobias March]

Could it possibly be resubmitted as an Elseworlds story and then perhaps be realized in the DCU much like occasional What If stories over at Marvel were? Spidergirl etc.?

Also it's an interesting reworking of the Batman myth. He was inspired by the bat and to become a thing of darkness. If Batgirl was to be inspired to become a symbol of light and yet righteous all the same - arriving at the same point as her mentor, but from a different direction.

[MacQuarrie]

As I understand it:
Christ chose His priesthood. He chose 12 males. The Church is subordinate to Christ, not the other way around. If you believe Christ to be less than God, I can see where you might want to update the mores of the Church to match your mores; however, since the Church holds that Christ is God, they seek to follow the Way and the Truth He set. Simply put, the Church does not feel that they have the authority to change the prioesthood instituted by Christ, their Founder and their God.

Hope that helped.
Not necessarily.

Mary of Magdala was as much an Apostle as any of the Twelve. She stayed at the cross when the men fled, she was the first one He appeared to after the resurrection, and for about a thousand years she was considered as much one of the Elders of the church as Peter or Paul. It was only when Pope Gregory grafted his own ideas about sex and gender onto the Gospels that Mary Magdalene was recast as a prostitute (there's nothing in scripture to indicate that the adulterous woman of John 8, or the sinful woman of Luke 7 are her) and robbed of her rightful place as one of the greatest people of faith. Mary Magdalene deserves more of our honor and attention than Matthias (who? Look it up), don't you think?

Paul said "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26-29) Why do we think he was just kidding?

[Budgie Inspector]

Hmm. Don't think this would appeal to me, personally. I liked Cassandra Cain just fine as she was. Maybe it's me, but I don't see her as being someone who gets abstract concepts. She's a tactile girl in a tactile world.

Just curious to see how other people's experiences jibe with my own, but a lot of the people I know who've been born again (all Christians, yeah; if I meet a born-again Muslim or Jew, I'll keep my eyes open) go through a period at the beginning where they're borderline-fanatical. They feel the need to immerse themselves wholly in their new faith, and this tends to manifest as heavy-duty lifestyle revamping and drawing away from non-believing friends/family. There's rarely any malice involved, mind you; they just desire the support of people who share their beliefs. They second-guess themselves constantly, afraid that an old habit might be out of line with their new faith.

Once they feel more secure about their path, most of them calm down. (Although I know one guy who's on this metaphysical rollercoaster; he seems unable to find a degree of adherence to his faith that makes him comfortable. One day, he's an ordinary cat, the next, he's self-flagellating.)

Anybody else have a similar experience? Or do I just know weird people?

[SensorBoy]

Not necessarily.

Mary of Magdala was as much an Apostle as any of the Twelve. She stayed at the cross when the men fled, she was the first one He appeared to after the resurrection, and for about a thousand years she was considered as much one of the Elders of the church as Peter or Paul. It was only when Pope Gregory grafted his own ideas about sex and gender onto the Gospels that Mary Magdalene was recast as a prostitute (there's nothing in scripture to indicate that the adulterous woman of John 8, or the sinful woman of Luke 7 are her) and robbed of her rightful place as one of the greatest people of faith. Mary Magdalene deserves more of our honor and attention than Matthias (who? Look it up), don't you think?

None of the New Testament Mary's were -ever- officially referred to as being prostitutes. It's a Folk History artifact that got repeated so often that it was taken at face value, like Mr Rodgers being a sniper with 100 kills.

Mary of Magdala never, as far as the Scripture or Tradition can tell us, exercised the faculties associated with the Presbyterate or Episcopate.

Pope John Paul II, in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, explained the Roman Catholic understanding that the priesthood is a special role specially set out by Jesus when he chose a dozen men out of his group of male and female followers. John Paul notes that Jesus chose the Twelve (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70) after a night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12) and that the Apostles themselves were careful in the choice of their successors.

In Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, John Paul wrote: "the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them.

John Paul II concluded his Apostolic Letter by saying: "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful". Which pretty much brings the discussion to a close, for us Catholics. Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

[Gail Simone]

This thread is dangerously close to becoming thought-provoking and intelligent.

Gail

[Sharpandpointies]

This thread is dangerously close to becoming thought-provoking and intelligent.

No flamewar so far, either. And yet it's about religion.

Cassandra is so cool she allows the internet to transcend its own rules.

[yeoman]

No flamewar so far, either. And yet it's about religion.

Cassandra is so cool she allows the internet to transcend its own rules.


We can't have that.

'Ned Flanders, I mock your value system, and your appearance is comical to me.'

:D

[Cam63]

No flamewar so far, either. And yet it's about religion.

Much coolness, all.

[Gilda Dent]

This thread is dangerously close to becoming thought-provoking and intelligent.

Gail

Ok, ok, I can take a hint, already.

[unsubscribes from thread]

Gilda

[Cam63]

Oh, get your arse back in here, Dent !

[Mia]

I know, I was shocked when I found this out because you wrote Huntress so well. Then I thought about it some more and realized that just because you are an atheist doesn't mean you can't understand religion. The concept of religion--and faith--is pretty simple.

.

Gail originially wrote Huntress as having 'given up' religion (BoP 69-73). Even though there was no previous evidence in any of the books to support this stance. Not only that, some of the language Helena uses towards Christianity in the story ('Churches makes her uncomfortable' ) was downright puzzling to be comming from a woman who was a heavy duty practising Catholic

I mean it's one thing for the character to put their faith aside. But her dialogue in the story makes it seem as if she was contemptuous of it all along. Rather puzzling for a woman who originally claimed to see her role as Huntress like a 'nun on a holy quest'.

At the end of the Huntress mini series Cry For Blood. Huntress, having engineered the death of a mob boss removed the crucifix from her costume. I wrote the author of the story Greg Rucka to ask him why she removed it, and Greg told me it was out of guilt. She did not give up her faith. Also, in the Batman: Family miniseries that took place after CFB Helena is seen attending Church.

It wasn't until BoP issue 80 (?) that Gail decided to restore Huntress faith by intending her to go back to Church.

[Pixies Chick]

I think the Batgirl idea is brilliant. Back when Chuck was writing the book, he did a story with Connor Hawke, that brought their differences into relief. Both were premiere fighters of the DCU freshman class, but he's serene (the monk) and she intense. It seemed like that was a source of interest for both of them. There's the Leslie factor too.

[LittleCanaryMin]

Rights to DC and yada yada

I wanna stand with you on a mountain, I wanna bathe with you in the sea. I wanna lay like this forever. Until the skies fall down on me...

The New Order: Gotham's Light exclusively on PS3...

"How can you have so much faith?" Asks the girl in black, her suit glistening in the moon light.

The minister on the ground stands and asks her to follow him...

I will be strong, I will be faithful, cause I'm counting on a new beginning. A reason for living a deeper meaning yeah... I wanna stand with you on a mountain. I wanna bathe with you in the sea. I wanna lay like this forever. Until the skies fall down on me...

She quietly went to the book store and bought a bible. People looked at her like they did back in the day when asian women bought bibles, the looked at her like she was an immigrant, a stranger in a strange whose first thing was God. Sympathy. Kindess. The let her go first. She gets back to the Clocktower, and starts to read what we know as the New Testament.

"Barbara what's that word?" Cassandra asks her mentor, and the red headed woman comes closer and says, "forgiveness."

Forgiveness? How can someone forgive? I- I- I can't understand it. Forgiveness? Why would you forgive someone? Dad. He. Never. Bruce. He doesn't. Barbara. She tries. Tim. Maybe.

Dream the dream, the neverending dream. The neverending dream.

"Barbara can you read that?" Cassandra asks, but this time. Barbara decides to take Cass under her wing again and teaches Cass how to read. Then some weeks later. Barbara asks, "Cass can you read that?"

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Cass reads. Barbara smiles and gives her a small motherly kiss on the cheek. She then turns and goes back to her computer.

Soon she's reading that bible back and forth, front to back through and through.

I still hear your voice... still close to you in everything I do.

Game starts with Cass in a white bat-suit with a purple trim bat symbol. Then comes in spirit Stephanie Brown, who says she's been assigned to be Cass' new guardian angel. Now it begins a show down in Crime Alley...

Become Cassandra Cain and experience the journey of change... or play with a friend and they can be Stephanie Brown her guardian angel. Interact with the Birds of Prey, Catwoman, Nightwing, Batman and the entire city of Gotham....

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see so clearly

Hallelujah, grace like rain falls down on me
Hallelujah, all my stains are washed away, washed away

The New Order: Gotham's Light... coming soon to a PS3 near you

Gail, if DC doesn't wanna greenlight this then find a new outlet. Tell'em that you can make it work, yah know? Games are awesome, and hey someone has to compete with Disney on that Kingdom Hearts :D

[titanfan]

It wasn't until BoP issue 80 (?) that Gail decided to restore Huntress faith by intending her to go back to Church.

To me, that was the intention all along. I saw it was a person losing their faith and then finding it again. Not that she's 100% found it, but it's still something she struggled with. Then again, I'm definitely not 100% familiar with the history of the Huntress prior to her in BoP, so I will defer to you.

[Nate Grey]

If DC/Didio is supposedly so interested in being diverse, then who will represent those who are spiritual? The more I think about it the more this would seem like a natural evolution for Cassandra (though, again, just not as heavy handed with the white outfit and spouting scripture). If not her, who? Or are they bringing back Azrael?

[Brack360]

Gail originially wrote Huntress as having 'given up' religion (BoP 69-73). Even though there was no previous evidence in any of the books to support this stance. Not only that, some of the language Helena uses towards Christianity in the story ('Churches makes her uncomfortable' ) was downright puzzling to be comming from a woman who was a heavy duty practising Catholic

I mean it's one thing for the character to put their faith aside. But her dialogue in the story makes it seem as if she was contemptuous of it all along. Rather puzzling for a woman who originally claimed to see her role as Huntress like a 'nun on a holy quest'.

At the end of the Huntress mini series Cry For Blood. Huntress, having engineered the death of a mob boss removed the crucifix from her costume. I wrote the author of the story Greg Rucka to ask him why she removed it, and Greg told me it was out of guilt. She did not give up her faith. Also, in the Batman: Family miniseries that took place after CFB Helena is seen attending Church.

It wasn't until BoP issue 80 (?) that Gail decided to restore Huntress faith by intending her to go back to Church.

It was always my interpretation after reading Cry for Blood that Huntress lost her faith at the end of that story. It was certainly conveyed that way, even if Rucka only intended it to be out of guilt like you said. I didn't find Helena's anti-religion comments in "Between Dark and Dawn" and her subsequent return to church to be out of character at all.

[Dry Observer]

Actually would would have been cool is to have a cape like robins except black on the outside and white and gold on the inside so that she could still go prowling on the roofs but when she would reveal her wings it would be a sign of hope.

Also fun? Having her get out of the Batcave and establish her own "nest" in the belfry of Gotham's biggest cathedral. No, really. =)

Ralph

[Mia]

It was always my interpretation after reading Cry for Blood that Huntress lost her faith at the end of that story. It was certainly conveyed that way, even if Rucka only intended it to be out of guilt like you said. I didn't find Helena's anti-religion comments in "Between Dark and Dawn" and her subsequent return to church to be out of character at all.



Given the fact that part of her goals for being Huntress was to be a 'nun on a holy quest' then that would certainly speak to how important her faith was in her life. When she had Cassemento killed that meant that her quest was no longer holy. Or in short she was not longer worthy of attaching the cross to her costume.


Also it would be one thing for Huntress to say that she was done with religion. But her comments in the book make it seem that she was contemptuous of it all along. For example when Oracle tries to show her the difference between a 'cult' and a 'church' Huntress tells her that it's a 'blurry thin line'. Which I found to be baffling for someone who until then had been previously been portrayed as a heavy duty serious practising Catholic.



And as I mentioned above in the Batman: Family mini. She's seen attending mass. And yes it did take place after CFB because the crucifix is gone from her costume. So obviously she never discarded her religion in the first place.

[Mia]

If DC/Didio is supposedly so interested in being diverse, then who will represent those who are spiritual? The more I think about it the more this would seem like a natural evolution for Cassandra (though, again, just not as heavy handed with the white outfit and spouting scripture). If not her, who? Or are they bringing back Azrael?


Personally, instead of having a opting for the above mentioned. I would rather see them expand and give the Christian characters they already have a greater role. I think it's high time that Huntress got her own title. And I would like to see a more prominent role for Dr. Midnight.