The Dark Phoenix Saga and female sexual power

[Wesley Dodds]

One of the things that's been bugging me for the last few days is why the Dark Phoenix Saga (and the character) has so much appeal for young women -- why is the character so popular? I decided that there must be some kind of metaphor behind the character, kind of like the one that gives Superman so much resonance.

Anyway, after consulting Jeff (who should not be blamed for any of the following, BTW) I've decided that the appeal of Phoenix is that she represents female sexual power -- and as Dark Phoenix she represents adolescent female anxiety about sexuality.

Anyway, here are my loosely organised thoughts:

Dark Phoenix: unstable. Borderline?

Phoenix -- fire and life incarnate

Corrupted by Mastermind -- corrupted by pleasure!

A young girl’s anxieties about her sexual appetites. She wants to be “naughty”, but she worries about the consequences of letting go.

She has a stable, hot boyfriend and a hairy wild man who lusts after her -- yay, best of both worlds! Husband and mutant gigolo. Or: it really is just that she has a boyfriend.

Misogynistic -- gives in to “naughtiness” and she kills billions of people. Not cool. Female sexuality is not that scary.

“I want a boyfriend but I’m worried about what will happen if I give in to these urges.”

Dark Phoenix Saga = worst case scenario

Weak ego? Poor integration -- normal Jean, “powerful” Phoenix, lustful Dark Phoenix. All same person, weak ego and trying to make sense of powerful urges, confuses sex with other things. Very unstable.
- aware of what she’s doing, feels bad about it
childlike behaviour

no real motivation -- destroys X-Jet, destroys a galaxy, spouts threats (a vague menace)

About female sexual power, like Scarlett O’Hara in Gone With the Wind
- both very misogynistic: no good can come from the female orgasm

Relationship with Cyclops: Cyclops has to control himself or he’ll hurt people with his mutant power. Jean has to control her naughty urges or she might destroy the universe.
- in real life, these anxieties unjustified, comic just presents cathartic worst case scenario

not about corrupting influence of power, not about Jean as a strong character -- really about adolescent female anxiety over sexuality

Professor X is her father figure -- she’s daddy’s little girl, she’s very close to him
movie anchors Jean’s craziness in her surrogate father’s original sin, blocking her power -- i.e., Professor X took Jean to a purity ball and it gave her an unhealthy attitude to her sexuality, now she can’t cope with it

~problem with the movie: they make Wolverine the hero, but she loves Cyclops (Wolverine is just her gigolo)

Jean and Cyclops are a Venn diagram: their anxieties overlap, the basis of mutual understanding

[BcAugust]

...Dark Phoniex saga is popular with girls? First I've heard of it.

Admittedly, your ideas sound okay, but it seems more of a "here's what you should be reading into it" criticism. Though honestly, if we're talking that level... It's more about the loss of male power and the reclaiming therefore when a woman is unworthy of it.

[Gilda Dent]

The controlling metaphor for the X-Men and mutants in general, especially during the New X-Men era has always been about sexual awakening and how that can make you feel different and isolated. Mutants in the Marvel sense are born with something that makes them different from everyone else, and it first manifests itself at puberty.

So it should be little surprise that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stories can work well as an exploration of female sexuality. It's right there on the surface that Phoenix was turned to the dark side by sexual manipulation. It's staged as romantic, but that's always been code for sexual, especially in media where it's difficult to show sexuality overtly. It also works better.

Sexuality is one of those things that functions as a part of our core identity, and the sex drive is one of the most powerful in humans. At its most intense it can come in just behind breathing and ahead of life sustaining drives such as eating and drinking.

So as a general metaphor, it works, but to get too specific may be reading more into it than was intended. When Dark Phoenix consumes a star, killing the inhabitants of the planet orbiting it, that's literally hunger, but it can serve as a metaphor for any powerful urge that we're taught to deny because they're wrong or hurt others. Anger, sexual desire, destructive impulses, all those things we all feel like doing at some point when they would be inappropriate, that's what Dark Phoenix represents. It's powerful primal drives unrestrained by personal will or by society, which leads to great harm coming to others, and eventually to Jean herself.

The metaphor I see here is sexual in part, but that's a part of it. It's about the disastrous consequences that can result from not focusing and controlling our primal urges, whatever those may be.

I'm also curious as to the statement in the OP. I've seen the Dark Phoenix saga listed as among the best storylines in comics quite often, but more commonly by males. If anything, the sexual component here might be the male fear of female sexual power. Males were, and still are, trained that they're supposed to be the sexual aggressors, and females are trained to carefully guard their sexuality, protect it. In this paradigm, females control access to sexual interaction, and thus are the ones with the majority of the percieved sexual power. Though that's really a flawed perception as it's both who control it, that is the way it's set up by our sexually repressed society.

In that sense, The Dark Phoenix Saga can be seen as a male fear of unfettered female sexuality.

I think that it works better as a metaphor for uncontrolled base desires and the consequences of not controlling them, but I can see the more sexual aspect to it also.

Gilda

[JeffreyWKramer]

So it should be little surprise that the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stories can work well as an exploration of female sexuality. It's right there on the surface that Phoenix was turned to the dark side by sexual manipulation. It's staged as romantic, but that's always been code for sexual, especially in media where it's difficult to show sexuality overtly. It also works better.

Hell, the staging isn't really very covert at all. In Mastermind's illusions, Jean was always dressed in fetish wear - corsets and high boots - and the later scenes sometimes have pretty obvious s/m subtext.

[Tobias March]

I would agree with Gilda for the most part that the Dark Phoenix represents a male fear of female sexuality. Just as Carol Cleaver identified in possession horror films such as the Exorcist in 'Men, Women and Chainsaws'. Certainly in Morrisons X-Men the Phoenix was an aspect of Jean that she herself was seeking to understand more than suppress and he depicts Xavier and Scott as being intimidated by this prospect (eventually it is Logan who releases the Phoenix, but only interestingly by forcing both of them to confront their own deaths).

[Expletive Deleted]

Hell, the staging isn't really very covert at all. In Mastermind's illusions, Jean was always dressed in fetish wear - corsets and high boots - and the later scenes sometimes have pretty obvious s/m subtext.Yeah, but that could've just been Claremont being Claremont.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, but that could've just been Claremont being Claremont.

Well, Claremont again and again returns to the theme of the powerful woman, whose power either takes a disastrous turn, or is removed/restricted, or both.

X-Men comics under Claremont also continue to include lots of fetishwear and not-very-covert nods to edgy sex. Consider the leather-and-dog-collar outfit Rachel Grey wore for many years, or her current outfit - a hottied-up version of her mom's old outfit, perhaps intended to get some sort of reaction from her sort-of dad, Cyclops.

[Noah Johnson]

I think there's a lot to this, in that from what I recall, the motivating thing that has Jean going further and further with her Phoenix powers, the engine that fuels her transformation into Dark Phoenix, is that she enjoys it. She LOVES how it feels to use her powers. And Dark Phoenix, of course, positively revels in it. She's always got this big shit-eating grin on when she uses her powers.

So clearly, there's something about the power of pleasure going on here. Of course, female sexuality and female power are tightly intertwined, in a way that's not really true for men.

As to whether this represents male or female anxiety about the power of female sexuality, that's trickier. I hate to lean too hard on authorial intent here, but we should bear in mind that Claremont definitely has some serious issues around women and power. His obsession with Storm being naked and having everyone fall in love with her is blindingly obvious, (Seriously, Doctor Doom? What the fuck was that?) and let's not even get into the rumors about his personal tastes I've heard.

So I suppose we could read Dark Phoenix as representing the problem of a powerful woman when she crosses over from powerful-enough-to-be-cute to powerful-enough-to-be-trouble.

At the same time, though, there's something I find viscerally attractive about the adolescent-female-anxiety reading. That could just be my own interest in the issue, but I would like to know that other female comics fans think of that interpretation.

[Zombienorthstar]

Thematically you could also argue that this arc is about sexual empowerment as you see the defeat of a male patriarch (D'Ken the emperor) and him being replaced by one of his sisters.

[west3man]

I read the original post hours, ago, but if I remember correctly, I disagree with Wesley's premise.

It's not a Madonna/whore thing, since Jean's no saint, with or without Phoenix.


EDIT: Just a suggestion - it might be a good idea to include a spoiler warning in the original post (by edit or whatever) since this is bound to go into that territory, if it hasn't, already.

[mattbib]

I've never associated any aspect of the Phoenix lore with sexual power but more about absolute power and corruption and love.

However, the most interesting thematic interpretation of the Phoenix that I've seen is in concepts in Qabbalah touched upon by Claremont and later expanded upon by Morrison. There was some discussion on this a few months ago here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=94593).

[Arilou]

I think the standard "fear of sexuality" is definately a theme. For some odd reason when women in comics go "bad" their costumes tend to become more revealing/fetish oriented.

[Montopolis]

I think the standard "fear of sexuality" is definately a theme. For some odd reason when women in comics go "bad" their costumes tend to become more revealing/fetish oriented.
Good point, we need more evil women.

[jaguarshark]

It's interesting that the observations made about the 'Dark Phoenix Saga' in this thread correspond very well with common interpretations of horror films. Tobias March's mention of Carol Clover's work was spot-on, and Barbara Creed's writings on 'The Monstrous-Feminine' seem relevant as well. To be honest, there's been a lot of academic writing on the subject, so to cite too many specific examples is like shooting fish in a film theorist barrel.

I think, for example, that the makers of 'X3' really picked up on that similarity and brought the horror movie 'possession' elements of the story to the forefront. With her jaundiced skin, Jean looks more like 'The Exorcist's Regan than the Phoenix of the comics, and when Professor X and Magneto approach her in her home, it feels a lot like the two priests going to do battle with the devil at the culmination of 'The Exorcist' (not a perfect analogy, of course, because nobody is about to call Magneto a priest). Actually, there's a few 'Exorcist' references throughout the film... consider Mystique's line "he's in here, with us" when questioned about Magneto's whereabouts. That's very similar to a line in the 'Exorcist'.

Basically, the Phoenix Saga is comics' equivalent of 'The Exorcist' or 'Carrie'. It is all about sexual awakening, and the power of the subconscious. Ultimately, the comics version of the story, at least, is also about love, which I feel makes it a very special story.

Incidentally, any mention of 'Daddy's Little Girl' in relation to Jean and Xavier, while certainly accurate in relation to the general perception of their characters, is kinda creepy given that Xavier had a thing for Jean at one point. But then, that was always a creepy part of the comics, I thought.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I really like this reading. But how do we account for Jean's decision to kill herself? Do we have to understand this ending as misogynistic, or is there a way to "save" it?

Also, what if they had gone with the alternate ending where Jean survives, but without powers? How would that change Wes and Gilda's reading? Would it imply that the only way a young woman can survive is by giving up her sexuality? Again, I don't like this interpretation very much and I wonder if there's a way around it.

[Wesley Dodds]

Jean's decision to die: "She sacrificed herself to save us all from female sexuality. She really is a hero."

If she'd been depowered, it would just have meant that female sexuality is OK, just not so much of it. She doesn't have to lose her powers, she just needs to reduce them enough to be in control of them.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Jean's decision to die: "She sacrificed herself to save us all from female sexuality. She really is a hero."

If she'd been depowered, it would just have meant that female sexuality is OK, just not so much of it. She doesn't have to lose her powers, she just needs to reduce them enough to be in control of them.

That's not the way it seems from reading Phoenix: The Untold Story, or What If? vol. 2 #32, which is apparently based on Claremont's plan for what would have happened if Jean hadn't died. In these stories, Jean is completely depowered; she loses even the Marvel Girl powers. This is presented almost as a fate worse than death, because it deprives her of something utterly essential.

Even then, I still think there must be a reading that does not just lead to a blanket condemnation of female sexuality. Despite his notoriously bad prose style, Claremont was very good at creating interesting and sympathetic female characters--or at least I thought so. And remember that Jean's death was not part of the original plan; it was editorially imposed as a result of John adding the scene where Jean committed genocide.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, even that is sympathetic, because it shows that her sexuality is essential to her.

Shooter's suggestion was to have her chained to a rock for all eternity as punishment, killing her was a compromise. Female sexuality unchained -- logical solution just to bind it again.

[howyadoin]

EDIT: Never mind. Figured it out.

[Gilda Dent]

First, I want to make it clear that the "male fear of female sexuality" reading I referred to is a part of the bigger "primal urges" reading, but I do see a sexuality metaphor all over it. It is, in how I'm reading it, not the only metaphor, but is the one closest to the surface.

How to reconcile the two possible endings with the "female sexuality" or "male fear of female sexuality" readings? Depowering against her will, even to the point of removing her base mutant powers is a fairly obvious, to me anyway, metaphor for rape. Being killed, taking into account that this was a suicide, and that Jean, the rational part of her, was in control at the time, makes this a willing sacrifice to avoid submission to an external authority, the key being that it's willing, it's chosen, but under duress to say the least. In a "female sexuality" reading, this matches up quite neatly with a whole slew of literature about women who undergo a sexual awakening only to find there's no place for it in their society and their world leading them to suicide or excommunication. Anna Karenina, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, The Awakening, The Scarlet Letter.

It's the classic ending to the sexual awakening story: a woman who is truly free sexually has no place in a society that values female sexuality as a male posession and not as an extension of the woman herself.

Gilda

[xakko]

Gilda, I would be keenly interested to see your analysis of the character of Storm, who does undergo the loss of her powers, and then gets them back.

Claremont consistently writes Ororo as one of the most powerful beings on the planet. Is this a way to combat the Phoenix, or a different metaphor entirely

[Rachel Grey]

I could be, but I'd much rather read it as "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

The idea of Chris condemning female sexuality doesn't seem right to me. I could be dead wrong however that's just how I see it. Shrug.

[spoon_jenkins]

I have some thoughts related to some things that have come up. I think the analysis is interesting. I guess I agree in some respects and disagree in others.

In Mastermind's illusions, Jean was always dressed in fetish wear - corsets and high boots - and the later scenes sometimes have pretty obvious s/m subtext.
Whether she's "always dressed in fetish wear" depends on how broadly fetish wear is defined (I say that because I genuinely don't know). There are definitely instances in Mastermind's illusions in which she's dressed in a different fashions.

In #125, Jean's dressed in a period (Georgian?) dress. She not wearing a corset as outwear, but from the size of her waist, one may conclude that she's wearing a corset under that. In another scene, Mastermind molds images of Jean in her various costumes and finally into the Black Queen outfit. Interestingly, Jean uses her own power to change outfits shortly thereafter.

In #126, Jean's wearing hunting wear. It's similar to what Mastermind wears, but Jean has skirt that goes a little below the knee.

In #129, Jean wears the same dress from #125 and later a cloak over it.

In #130, she wears a wedding dress that totally covers her (including a veil at point), but Mastermind removes it to reveal the Black Queen outfit.

In #132, at the Hellfire ball, Mastermind illusion casts Jean in a dress significantly more conservative than the one she actually wears in reality. Her actual is "cut out" in both the back and the front. Scott comments that he likes the dress. This is the issue in which Jean first appears in Black Queen garb in real life.

For some odd reason when women in comics go "bad" their costumes tend to become more revealing/fetish oriented.
Of course, the Black Queen outfit is more revealing. Interestingly, the Dark Phoenix outfit is identical to the Phoenix outfit except for color. And the Phoenix outfit is level revealing than the miniskirt and dipping neckline of the Marvel Girl outfit.

Also, what if they had gone with the alternate ending where Jean survives, but without powers? How would that change Wes and Gilda's reading? Would it imply that the only way a young woman can survive is by giving up her sexuality? Again, I don't like this interpretation very much and I wonder if there's a way around it.
The alternate storyline that Claremont/Byrne planned did result in Jean being depowered permanently. Rather, her power were going to manifest again, re-starting the whole cycle. There'd be some sort of climax in #150 in which she has to choose whether or not to accept the powers.

[Volk1]

I think, for example, that the makers of 'X3' really picked up on that similarity and brought the horror movie 'possession' elements of the story to the forefront. With her jaundiced skin, Jean looks more like 'The Exorcist's Regan than the Phoenix of the comics, and when Professor X and Magneto approach her in her home, it feels a lot like the two priests going to do battle with the devil at the culmination of 'The Exorcist' (not a perfect analogy, of course, because nobody is about to call Magneto a priest). Actually, there's a few 'Exorcist' references throughout the film... consider Mystique's line "he's in here, with us" when questioned about Magneto's whereabouts. That's very similar to a line in the 'Exorcist'.
That is a great analogy - minus the fact, as you vaguely mention, that Magneto in X-3 didn't want to absolve Jean of her "darkness" But they were both there to help her in the way they each thought best. Strange how it's Magneto who doesn't succeed with the powerful Dark Phoenix at his helm when all he had to was unleash her....something that Xavier restricts and all is nice and well.

If you take the whole "female sexual repression" to the movie - that Xavier blocking that part of Jean for a more purposeful and peaceful life - it just goes to show you how tough it is to be a "parent". How tough it is to make a crucial decision about the ones you care about. Like he said in X-3, it was about "choosing the lesser of two evils."

A controlled, safe "daughter" vs a wild and rebellious "daughter". It's a parent's worst nightmare! (I assume lol:) )

[spoon_jenkins]

Thematically you could also argue that this arc is about sexual empowerment as you see the defeat of a male patriarch (D'Ken the emperor) and him being replaced by one of his sisters.
D'Ken is one of a progression of three male power-seekers whose stories take place during the broader Phoenix saga.

D'Ken is a monarch with a lot of temporal power who is seeking cosmic power. As you note, he's a male monarch replaced by his sister.

Proteus is the bad son who escapes from the confines imposed by her mother to control his power (while she's trying to gauge the power of Jean, her "stepdaughter" of sorts). He goes on a rampage and seeks out his father (who impregnated his mother during a brutal rape). He possesses the body of his father and is killed.

Mastermind is an ugly, traditionally shabbily dressed crook. He wants to join the beautiful people club. They're wealthy and powerful. Mastermind alters his appearance to make himself handsome like them. He seeks to gain power through controlling Jean/Phoenix. In her words: "Through me, you sought power. Very well, then, I'll grant your wish. I'll give you power, Jason Wyngarde -- such as no living being has even dreamed of." She puts Mastermind in touch with the universe. He's left a hallucinating mess unable to act in the real world and back in his original appearance (although, of course, he recovers a few years later).

So there's some stuff regarding males and power from that period. Consistent? Inconsistent? Irrelevant?

[Wesley Dodds]

I don't think Claremont is "anti-woman" -- the character Phoenix is an endorsement of female sexuality. She was the weakest of the X-Men while the others had all these cool puberty powers, now she's the strongest.

Dark Phoenix is just "a good thing taken too far". As Gilda said, she's Anna Karenina. Eating a sun is just a metaphor for how society shuns a woman who enjoys sexual pleasure as much as a man -- slut, etc.

So, as I see it, the character Phoenix is popular with women because of her strong sexuality (and strong powers, making her important to the group) and Dark Phoenix has resonance as a story about the anxieties this new power gives her. But at the end she makes a conscious sacrifice, celebrating the character's heroism and autonomy.

Of course, to a man, it's a story about fear of female sexual power.

[Zombienorthstar]

Yes but you can make the arguement that Jean's suicide is about power itself. She is tkaing control of her destiny not letting one of the male figures in her life do it for her (as was done in X3). Suicide in mythic and classic literature was not seen as cowardice...its got honour and glory surroudning it. In Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra, Cleopatra kills herself rather than remain the prize trophy of the patriarchal Ceasar....couldnt the same arguement be put forward here...?

[sherlockbones]

let´s not forget susan storm in her malice outfit. i think that was pretty similar to the whole dark phönix theme and not only cause it was drawn by byrne.

bringing up surpressed female sexuality complex in a ficitional story i instantly have to think about bram stoker´s dracula. set in a victorian age sexuality is a diverse element of the novel and the characters can be read similar to the phönix saga. i´d say xavier and van hellsing are both positiv father figures with multiple talents in opposition to dracula/magneto as tempter who promise yet untapped powers and possibilites. vampires are some sort of superbeings and similar to magneto, dracula has many lines about his blood and the superiority of his people.
another similarity would be the love constellations. the x-men love triangle is also found in dracula, but goes a step further with 3 rivaling males. lucy westenra is loved by the aristocrat arthur holmwood and the adventurer quincy morris. no clue how dr. seward would fit in.

what do you think? does it make any sense?

[Wesley Dodds]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Magneto is Dracula. Jean is Lucy, Cyclops is her lover, Wolverine is the rakish gardner Lucy lusts for. She loves Cyclops, but Cyclops is scared and confused by the sudden appearance of predatory sexuality in his fairly chaste lover.

By having Professor X be partially responsible for Jean's craziness, making the Phoenix part of Jean, and having Magneto cast as a tempter I think the movie gets closer to the true meaning of the story than the comic.

Of course, it makes Wolverine the male lead, and he's just the gigolo. Bah.

[Sir Tim Drake]

The odd thing about Dracula is that it also includes another female protagonist, Mina, who survives her confrontation with bad sexuality and goes on to fulfill her appointed reproductive role. There seems to be no equivalent to Jonathan and Mina in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

I think Scott is closer to Arthur/Lord Godalming than Jonathan Harker, by the way. After all, Jonathan was a nice guy who actually succeeded in accomplishing things... my anti-Scottism is showing.

[Zombienorthstar]

The odd thing about Dracula is that it also includes another female protagonist, Mina, who survives her confrontation with bad sexuality and goes on to fulfill her appointed reproductive role. There seems to be no equivalent to Jonathan and Mina in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

I think Scott is closer to Arthur/Lord Godalming than Jonathan Harker, by the way. After all, Jonathan was a nice guy who actually succeeded in accomplishing things... my anti-Scottism is showing.


Exactly...Mina is the madonna, Lucy is the whore... a more apt interpretaiton would be when you factor in Madelyne Pryor.

Madelyne is the weak willed Lucy who gives herself up willing and ultimatley she is shown to be inferiror to this paragon like goddess character of Mina/Jean.

The thing about the male white hats in Dracula is that they are all incredibly similar. Quincy Morris, Arthur Godalming, Jonathon Harker and Dr Seward all are incredibly similar...and whilst they all orignally crave the sexual lucy (three of them actually proposing to her) all of them by the end have a deep love for Mina...the madonna....

Yet Mina is much more...as she is intelligent...she is the one who assembles the notes and figures out Dracula...her connection to Dracula leads them to finally succeed. She shows power that her male role model Van Helsing/Xavier who eventually fears and envies Mina/Jean.

[Gilda Dent]

Gilda, I would be keenly interested to see your analysis of the character of Storm, who does undergo the loss of her powers, and then gets them back.

Claremont consistently writes Ororo as one of the most powerful beings on the planet. Is this a way to combat the Phoenix, or a different metaphor entirely

First, I don't know exactly what Claremont is doing, but it's possible he doesn't even know that, either. I write a lot and sometimes find themes or motifs running through things I've written that I didn't know I was putting in there. Sometimes an author puts a metaphor or an element into what she's writing without being entirely concious of this. Flannery O'Conner wrote what she considered to be very deeply religious stories, but it's possible to read them and find humanist or existentialist themes recurring over and over again.

The reason this happens is that good writers like O'Conner know that the best way to showcase a theme is to set it against it's antithesis, and many great writers will give that antithesis equal weight forcing the reader to dig it out rather than have it spoon fed to them. In doing so, sometimes the story itself, separate from the author's intent, becomes an exploration of the antithesis rather than the theme the author was looking at initially.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that Claremont may or may not be intentionally building these elements into his writing, may be subconsciously putting them in, or may be presenting them as counterpoint, and there's no way of knowing exactly which, so any reading is going to necessarily be based at least on a personal interpetation coming from an interaction between the reader's experiences and the text.

Storm has, to begin with, a "soft" power. It's a repeated theme in Superhero comics, giving female characters "soft" powers more often than "hard" powers. It's also a nature power. Women in literature are commonly seen as closer to nature, and menstruation, pregnancy, and childbirth in particular an indication of women's spiritual connection to nature. This power to give life is described in religous terms, even today, describing pregnancy and childbirth as a "miracle". Storm was viewed as a Goddess in her native land, and symbollically gave life to the land through her manipulation of the weather. The weather even reacts directly to her moods if she's not careful to consciously control that aspect.

And therein lies her central metaphor: She's the life-giving nature Goddess, which is definitely a theme surrounding female sexuality, but in this case it's not sex, but childbirth.

Is that the only theme? Nah, there are others but I think that it's the most powerful one used for her.

Gilda

[Gilda Dent]

Yes but you can make the arguement that Jean's suicide is about power itself. She is tkaing control of her destiny not letting one of the male figures in her life do it for her (as was done in X3). Suicide in mythic and classic literature was not seen as cowardice...its got honour and glory surroudning it. In Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra, Cleopatra kills herself rather than remain the prize trophy of the patriarchal Ceasar....couldnt the same arguement be put forward here...?

Sure. That's what the protagonists in the stories I mention other than Tess all do, take power in the only way available to them in their place and time, and even Tess has elements of that.

Gilda

[DDM]

I think this thread is just overthinking the whole Dark Phoenix Saga.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I think this thread is just overthinking the whole Dark Phoenix Saga.

Yes, but overthinking is what criticism is all about. :)

[DDM]

Yes, but overthinking is what criticism is all about. :)

Overthinking can also miss the point of the story as well.

[Gilda Dent]

Overthinking can also miss the point of the story as well.

It can, but with practice it's possible to enjoy a story on the surface level while still recognizing subtext and thinking about metaphor.

Gilda

[Arilou]

Suicide in mythic and classic literature was not seen as cowardice...its got honour and glory surroudning it.

More than that, it can be seen as the ultimate choice: Killing yourself is thus denying your oppressor power over you.

Reminds me of an old song:
"Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please...."

[DDM]

It can, but with practice it's possible to enjoy a story on the surface level while still recognizing subtext and thinking about metaphor.

Gilda

When Claremont & Byrne wrote Uncanny X-Men #129-137, I see no evidence of overthinking on their part that Phoenix is a metaphor for sexual empowerment. Chris Claremont wanted to make a female analogue to Thor for the X-Men; as a result, Chris Claremont & Dave Cockrum created Phoenix from Marvel Girl. Chris Claremont & John Byrne have two diametric views on Phoenix which fed the storyline for Phoenix's corruption into the Black Queen.

Overthinking is just an unhealthy exercise into abstract nonsense.

[west3man]

When Claremont & Byrne wrote Uncanny X-Men #129-137, I see no evidence of overthinking on their part that Phoenix is a metaphor for sexual empowerment. Chris Claremont wanted to make a female analogue to Thor for the X-Men; as a result, Chris Claremont & Dave Cockrum created Phoenix from Marvel Girl. Chris Claremont & John Byrne have two diametric views on Phoenix which fed the storyline for Phoenix's corruption into the Black Queen.

Overthinking is just an unhealthy exercise into abstract nonsense.
I agree with you that most folks are probably overthinking this, but it does no harm, really.

Ultimately, none of us are forced to participate, so it's no biggie, right?

[Gilda Dent]

When Claremont & Byrne wrote Uncanny X-Men #129-137, I see no evidence of overthinking on their part that Phoenix is a metaphor for sexual empowerment.

Neither do I. I do, however, see evidence of that element being in the story. Writers sometimes build elements into a story, especially deeper elements, that they didn't necessarily plan on being there.

Overthinking is just an unhealthy exercise into abstract nonsense.

Deconstruction, however, is a healthy mental exercise into subtext and base meanings not immediately apparent on the surface.

Gilda

[Uncle Nobs]

(buncha smart stuff)
Very well said. :D

[Cowlander]

While it was definitely well said, and was something I'd never even been in the ballpark of thinking.

I do get a kick out of wondering how deep are you looking into something for DD'fricking-M to say youre looking to deep into it. I didnt think it was possible for him to not clearly see whatever deep and profound meaning in CC's work you could come up with.

Hilarious..

[Uncle Nobs]

I could be, but I'd much rather read it as "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

The idea of Chris condemning female sexuality doesn't seem right to me. I could be dead wrong however that's just how I see it. Shrug.
I don't think he's condemning it. Just speaking of how powerful it naturally is and how it frightens people. People are overwhelmed by it.

[Uncle Nobs]

Several people have pointed out how the Phoenix metaphor was handled in the movies, but it's something they began to address even as early as the first movie. The entire climax scene of X1 is a sexual metaphor, and it's pretty clear that Singer did it intentionally.

Jean is caught between two men. When Scott is unable to shoot his beam, Logan steps in to do the job for him. Jean must acquiesce to his desires, and she lifts Logan into position atop the torch, allowing him access to the young girl who is in danger. Logan, the alpha male, attempts to forcibly plunge into the mechanism that robs Rogue of her power. At the same time, piercing the delicate nucleus of this mechanism would most likely harm Rogue--an innocent teenage girl just discovering the gifts and burdens of her awakening adulthood and who wants nothing more than to be touched. Tension builds as Logan slowly, slowly moves his claws closer and closer to penetrate the protective field around the virginal young girl. Scott starts begging Jean to allow him to shoot all his pent-up energy. She tells him to wait, wait, wait. Finally he tells her, "Jean, I have to!" and he lets loose with a massive release, just as Logan pierces through. Both men breach the protective membrane and reach the delicate core, and Jean is left literally gasping for air.

Accuse me of reading into it too much if you like, but go ahead watch the scene again. It's meant to work on several levels and it's all DEFINITELY intentional.

[Sir Tim Drake]

According to one way of thinking, it doesn't matter whether Claremont and Byrne intended for these meanings to be present in the story. We can't read their minds (nor would we want to, in John's case :)), and our theories about what they intended are ultimately just educated guesses. Moreover, as Gilda suggested, Claremont and Byrne may have put certain meanings into the story without consciously intending to do so. Or the story may have had unintentional implications that they just weren't aware of.

It helps to understand the context in which the story was written, but ultimately we can only judge the story on its own merits. Regardless of whether these meanings were "supposed" to be present in the story, they are present, and it's interesting to discover them.

[west3man]

I've almost always disagreed with the idea that certain types of symbolism are present, regardless of the author's intent.

We can imagine it there. We can superimpose our perspective and perception.

That, however, is distinct from it *is* there.

[DDM]

I've almost always disagreed with the idea that certain types of symbolism are present, regardless of the author's intent.

We can imagine it there. We can superimpose our perspective and perception.

That, however, is distinct from it *is* there.

Exactly. Throughout most of Claremont's interviews about Phoenix, he has never once said Phoenix is a symbol of female sexual empowerment. He wanted to make Phoenix turn into a power junkie as her power slowly corrupts from outside forces (Mastermind, the Hellfire Club) & within (the Phoenix being linked to passion rather than intellect).

Byrne wanted Phoenix out of the X-Men since she turned most of the team into fifth wheels (hence Phoenix was written out in Uncanny X-Men #113-114 & did not return to the X-Men until Uncanny X-Men #125-128), but Claremont wanted her on the team to write more stories between her human & god-like dichotomy. Phoenix had to be dealt with.

I believe Chris Claremont was going to corrupt Ms. Marvel into the Black Queen, but when Ms. Marvel was cancelled he shifted this storyline in Uncanny X-Men's Phoenix.

[Uncle Nobs]

I've almost always disagreed with the idea that certain types of symbolism are present, regardless of the author's intent.

We can imagine it there. We can superimpose our perspective and perception.

That, however, is distinct from it *is* there.
Exactly. Throughout most of Claremont's interviews about Phoenix, he has never once said Phoenix is a symbol of female sexual empowerment. He wanted to make Phoenix turn into a power junkie as her power slowly corrupts from outside forces (Mastermind, the Hellfire Club) & within (the Phoenix being linked to passion rather than intellect).

Byrne wanted Phoenix out of the X-Men since she turned most of the team into fifth wheels (hence Phoenix was written out in Uncanny X-Men #113-114 & did not return to the X-Men until Uncanny X-Men #125-128), but Claremont wanted her on the team to write more stories between her human & god-like dichotomy. Phoenix had to be dealt with.

I believe Chris Claremont was going to corrupt Ms. Marvel into the Black Queen, but when Ms. Marvel was cancelled he shifted this storyline in Uncanny X-Men's Phoenix.
I can write a children's book about how Johnny Appleseed has a special seed he's never planted and wants to find the perfect, most fertile land to plant it in. I can be completely oblivious of the sexual themes I've written, but they're still right there, plain as can be.

[DDM]

I can write a children's book about how Johnny Appleseed has a special seed he's never planted and wants to find the perfect, most fertile land to plant it in. I can be completely oblivious of the sexual themes I've written, but they're still right there, plain as can be.

Aside from the obvious S&M sexuality with the Hellfire Club, Morlocks, & Rachel Summers' Hound costume, the rest is just a cigar.

[west3man]

I can write a children's book about how Johnny Appleseed has a special seed he's never planted and wants to find the perfect, most fertile land to plant it in. I can be completely oblivious of the sexual themes I've written, but they're still right there, plain as can be.
My main objection is to definitive declaratives at the end of your and Tim's posts.

It *may* be there. It *can* be there.

It's all a matter of interpretation.

[west3man]

An example:

I'm watching Terminator 2, right now. (The commentary of the extended version, actually.)

I could say there's a message within the movie that the threat of Black intelligence, advancement, and familial integrity will ultimately lead to this world's destruction.


I can support the heck out of that interpretation, but without demonstrating the author's intent or socio-political leanings, that's all it remains - an interpretation.

[Uncle Nobs]

There are times when it's a matter of identifying a theme due to superimposed perception, and other times when it's a matter of being a plain-as-day, impossible-to-dismiss theme that the artist may or may not have intended or even been aware of. When it's the latter, I don't see why anyone would pretend the theme isn't present just because they don't credit the artist with the intention.

[west3man]

There are times when it's a matter of identifying a theme due to superimposed perception, and other times when it's a matter of being a plain-as-day, impossible-to-dismiss theme that the artist may or may not have intended or even been aware of. When it's the latter, I don't see why anyone would pretend the theme isn't present just because they don't credit the artist with the intention.
If a creator always has women in submissive roles, that's one thing. If a creator crafts a passionate character, that's another.

And it's not a matter of pretending anything. Just disagreeing with opinion.

[Gilda Dent]

Exactly. Throughout most of Claremont's interviews about Phoenix, he has never once said Phoenix is a symbol of female sexual empowerment. He wanted to make Phoenix turn into a power junkie as her power slowly corrupts from outside forces (Mastermind, the Hellfire Club) & within (the Phoenix being linked to passion rather than intellect).

Byrne wanted Phoenix out of the X-Men since she turned most of the team into fifth wheels (hence Phoenix was written out in Uncanny X-Men #113-114 & did not return to the X-Men until Uncanny X-Men #125-128), but Claremont wanted her on the team to write more stories between her human & god-like dichotomy. Phoenix had to be dealt with.

I believe Chris Claremont was going to corrupt Ms. Marvel into the Black Queen, but when Ms. Marvel was cancelled he shifted this storyline in Uncanny X-Men's Phoenix.

Taken from the paradigm that sees authorial intent as the sole arbiter of what reading of the text is correct, I have no doubt that this is an accurate reading.

However, as I pointed out earlier, sometimes subtextual elements will find themselves into a story, especially one that is collaborative like comics, that may not have been intended by the creator and that the creator might not even be aware of.

It is possible to read literature using a different paradigm than authorial intent. I tend to look at the meaning of literature and art as being contained within the work itself. From that paradigm, any reading that is supported by evidence contained in the text itself is a legitimate reading.

Within that paradigm, I think the reading I've presented (which, by the way, is not female sexual empowerment, but something slightly different from that) based on Wesley's original thesis, is a sound one.

Gilda

[Gilda Dent]

I can write a children's book about how Johnny Appleseed has a special seed he's never planted and wants to find the perfect, most fertile land to plant it in. I can be completely oblivious of the sexual themes I've written, but they're still right there, plain as can be.

Fairy tales, folk tales, and to a lesser extent, all children's stories are almost never really about what's on the surface.

Gilda

[Citizen V]

...Dark Phoniex saga is popular with girls? First I've heard of it.

I agree,personally i think its just a power issue.No sex appeal.

[sherlockbones]

It is possible to read literature using a different paradigm than authorial intent.
Gilda


this certain reading has a name and is called "death of the author"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_author

[west3man]

Author and intent can be separate. They aren't necessarily.

[Wesley Dodds]

Actually, I think the sex reading is more "there" than the corruption of power theme -- part of what started me off on this chain of thought was how the story doesn't make as much sense as a corruption of power story.

Example: Mastermind doesn't corrupt Jean by convincing her to abuse her power, he does it through her sensuality. She doesn't begin to abuse her power until after she's been corrupted.

And she doesn't become power-mad, she becomes pleasure-mad. As a menace, she's not focused -- destroys the X-Jet, eats a sun, threatens her family. She's not Doctor Doom, she has a different problem.

Also, Phoenix is sexual -- "I am fire and life incarnate". That sounds like a pretty good description of sexual energy.

[spoon_jenkins]

First of all, I think it's important to point out that the readings of the Phoenix Saga and female sexuality don't seem to be unitary. Please correct me if I mangle your interpretations. For example, I take Sir Tim and Noah (and Gilda, to some extent) to hold much more derogatory views about the attitude toward female sexuality in the saga. Wes seems to view the story as a commentary on sexual anxiety, not a condemnation of sexuality. Sir Tim, on the other hand seems to view it as mysognistic.

I think the Wes's initial theory is intriguing; I'm not so sure how much I agree with it. But I don't agree much with Claremont the nasty misogynist. And part of it, IMO, is people who are bigger fans of X-Men (or at least, they're much more frequent denizens of the X-board) arguing from a different base of knowledge that those who aren't really X-board people. For example, DDM brings up the idea that elements of the Dark Phoenix saga may not have originally been intended for Jean. Building upon zombienorthstar mention of D'Ken, I bring up three male power-seekers who were punished at the same time. So it's not like CC was singling out a woman. And two of those males (Proteus taken over the body of the father who raped his mother; Mastermind transforming himself into the object of Jean's affections) arguably have sexual elements themselves.

And some of this may be related to personal preference. Sir Tim's a bigger Titans guy and he's critical of CC. I'm a bigger X-Men guy and I think CC tends to treat his female characters better than Wolfman has. I'm one of those folks who's felt that the Wonder Girl-Terry Long coupling was kinda creepy and didn't really dig the portrayal of Koriandr.


BTW, an intial point comic from an X-oriented person. I haven't seen X3 yet and I'm not sure whether given comments are supposed to draw on the movies or comics. But I think if one's going by the comics, then the role of Wolverine is being overplayed. Really through the Dark Phoenix Saga, Jean didn't demonstrate much interest in Logan. It was pretty much a one-sided interest. After Claremont put more focus on Wolvie in later years, there was some retconning to make the feelings mutual.

[DDM]

Actually, I think the sex reading is more "there" than the corruption of power theme -- part of what started me off on this chain of thought was how the story doesn't make as much sense as a corruption of power story.

Example: Mastermind doesn't corrupt Jean by convincing her to abuse her power, he does it through her sensuality. She doesn't begin to abuse her power until after she's been corrupted.

And she doesn't become power-mad, she becomes pleasure-mad. As a menace, she's not focused -- destroys the X-Jet, eats a sun, threatens her family. She's not Doctor Doom, she has a different problem.

Also, Phoenix is sexual -- "I am fire and life incarnate". That sounds like a pretty good description of sexual energy.


Jean Grey, as Phoenix, is a power junkie. When Phoenix first uses her powers against Firelord in Uncanny X-Men #105, she is in ecstasy; the passions she feels as she uses her new powers makes her want to greater things. Phoenix feels the ultimate sensations when she heals the alien M'Krann Crystal--linked spiritually with the other X-Men--that nothing is beyond her grasp. Ironically, after Phoenix saves the universe, her subconscious mind set a series of psionic circuit breakers to chop her access from her cosmic peak. Phoenix now is about as powerful as Xavier, but she has limits (due to psionic circuit breakers Xavier himself imposed on Jean when her telepathy emerged as a child). Therefore, when she fights Magneto, Phoenix loses.

Mastermind's tampering with Phoenix's mind, working with the Hellfire Club's White Queen's mindtap mechanism to mask his true presence & read Jean Grey's mind from afar in order to create his own illusions to her own dark fantasies--slowly breaks down Phoenix's psionic circuit breakers. As a result, Phoenix taps into more raw power & slowly becomes amoral in her actions. For instance, she dresses more provocatively in Uncanny X-Men #131 (showing her cleavage at the end of the story) & Uncanny X-Men #132 (her ballroom dress showing her back & her cleavage). The amoral behavior comes in when Jean Grey literally changes Carmen Pryde's thoughts midstream in Uncanny X-Men #131. Phoenix's dark side is more prevelant in Uncanny X-Men #131 when she smashes the Hellfire Club's car with her telekinesis; Cyclops is bothered by Phoenix's new emotions because he has never seen this behavior from Jean Grey before. Since Phoenix is tapping into more of her cosmic powers, she willingly uses it against the White Queen in their psionic duel. Yet even the White Queen's telepathy is powerful enough to mask her true presence from Phoenix after Emma Frost destroy's the building with her single psionic bolt to Phoenix (reread Uncanny X-Men #117. Emma Frost is basically Xavier & Phoenix is Amahl Farouk, but both Frost & Xavier did the same thing to save themselves; both feats have different consequences & different contexts).

When Phoenix frees herself after her dark side has been completely exposed--combined with the Phoenix's primal urge to destroy--transforms Phoenix into Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix gives into her primal urges for self-pleasure. Cyclops thinks to himself that Phoenix's powers is the ultimate stimulant. Dark Phoenix transforms the raging winter storm into energy for her to go into space; she takes more energy from our sun to transport herself into the Shi'ar Galaxy. Dark Phoenix is beyond human. She seeks a "rapture beyond human comprehension" as this need consumes her. Furthermore, with each use of her powers, they grow geometrically. Since Dark Phoenix could not find the M'Krann Crystal, she consumed D'Bari for the sheer lust it all. Phoenix did not need to consume the star for sustenance, yet she did it just the same without a thought of the consequences. As Dark Phoenix, Jean Grey became a power junkie lunatic looking for the next high.

Even when Xavier & Jean Grey herself fight her insane Dark Phoenix-self & returns to become Marvel Girl, she explains to Scott that it felt good when she consumed D'Bari. Jean Grey is torn because a part of her wants that feeling again, but another part of her is disgusted by her actions as Dark Phoenix.

All of this is what makes The Dark Phoenix Saga & the Phoenix character so timeless & beloved by readers.

[jeangreydp]

Several people have pointed out how the Phoenix metaphor was handled in the movies, but it's something they began to address even as early as the first movie. The entire climax scene of X1 is a sexual metaphor, and it's pretty clear that Singer did it intentionally.

Jean is caught between two men. When Scott is unable to shoot his beam, Logan steps in to do the job for him. Jean must acquiesce to his desires, and she lifts Logan into position atop the torch, allowing him access to the young girl who is in danger. Logan, the alpha male, attempts to forcibly plunge into the mechanism that robs Rogue of her power. At the same time, piercing the delicate nucleus of this mechanism would most likely harm Rogue--an innocent teenage girl just discovering the gifts and burdens of her awakening adulthood and who wants nothing more than to be touched. Tension builds as Logan slowly, slowly moves his claws closer and closer to penetrate the protective field around the virginal young girl. Scott starts begging Jean to allow him to shoot all his pent-up energy. She tells him to wait, wait, wait. Finally he tells her, "Jean, I have to!" and he lets loose with a massive release, just as Logan pierces through. Both men breach the protective membrane and reach the delicate core, and Jean is left literally gasping for air.

Accuse me of reading into it too much if you like, but go ahead watch the scene again. It's meant to work on several levels and it's all DEFINITELY intentional.

Bwahahahahahah!

I don't think I've ever thought of it that way, but now I certainly will. Hilarious.

[Zombienorthstar]

Several people have pointed out how the Phoenix metaphor was handled in the movies, but it's something they began to address even as early as the first movie. The entire climax scene of X1 is a sexual metaphor, and it's pretty clear that Singer did it intentionally.

Jean is caught between two men. When Scott is unable to shoot his beam, Logan steps in to do the job for him. Jean must acquiesce to his desires, and she lifts Logan into position atop the torch, allowing him access to the young girl who is in danger. Logan, the alpha male, attempts to forcibly plunge into the mechanism that robs Rogue of her power. At the same time, piercing the delicate nucleus of this mechanism would most likely harm Rogue--an innocent teenage girl just discovering the gifts and burdens of her awakening adulthood and who wants nothing more than to be touched. Tension builds as Logan slowly, slowly moves his claws closer and closer to penetrate the protective field around the virginal young girl. Scott starts begging Jean to allow him to shoot all his pent-up energy. She tells him to wait, wait, wait. Finally he tells her, "Jean, I have to!" and he lets loose with a massive release, just as Logan pierces through. Both men breach the protective membrane and reach the delicate core, and Jean is left literally gasping for air.

Accuse me of reading into it too much if you like, but go ahead watch the scene again. It's meant to work on several levels and it's all DEFINITELY intentional.


You failt to mention what happens straight after that Nobs...which jsut goes to further proove your point.

The young virginial girl literally sucks the life from this alpha male...exposing his old wounds and pains (possibly a metaphor for emotions) and while she is rejeuvenated by that he is nearly killed. What could Singer be trying to tell us here?

The differing sexualities of man and woman? Man liking the physical and women the emotional?

[Arilou]

You failt to mention what happens straight after that Nobs...which jsut goes to further proove your point.

The young virginial girl literally sucks the life from this alpha male...exposing his old wounds and pains (possibly a metaphor for emotions) and while she is rejeuvenated by that he is nearly killed. What could Singer be trying to tell us here?

The differing sexualities of man and woman? Man liking the physical and women the emotional?

Wouldn't that just be the standard "Succubus" theme rather?

The fact that a woman can "outlast" a man sexually and "drain him" of his strength seems to be a pretty common theme in legends and such. (There's even echoes of it in Morte d'Arthur)

[Uncle Nobs]

You failt to mention what happens straight after that Nobs...which jsut goes to further proove your point.

The young virginial girl literally sucks the life from this alpha male...exposing his old wounds and pains (possibly a metaphor for emotions) and while she is rejeuvenated by that he is nearly killed. What could Singer be trying to tell us here?

The differing sexualities of man and woman? Man liking the physical and women the emotional?
I see where you're going with this, Lewis, but I think anything past the scene I mentioned is kind of a stretch to find hidden sexual themes. I see where you can draw those conclusions with the Rogue/Logan scene, but when you actually watch it, I think the really intentionally sexually subversive parts end once Cyke and Logan penetrate Magneto's device and leave Jean gasping. At that point, the story returns to a kind of single-layered narrative, where the focus is wholly on Logan's path in learning to stop feeling sorry for himself and let people reach him emotionally--learning to get involved in the world around him.

And Liz, seriously, watch that thing tonight. You won't believe how thick Singer layed it on. (That's not a dig. I think it all works very well.)

[jeangreydp]

I think anything past the scene I mentioned is kind of a stretch to find hidden sexual themes. I see where you can draw those conclusions with the Rogue/Logan scene, but when you actually watch it, I think the really intentionally sexually subversive parts end once Cyke and Logan penetrate Magneto's device and leave Jean gasping.

And Liz, seriously, watch that thing tonight. You won't believe how thick Singer layed it on. (That's not a dig. I think it all works very well.)

See, everytime I've watched it I figured that the device had knocked down the psychic barriers put in her mind by Xavier, setting up the Phoenix story for the subsequent films. But, it obviously can serve as that scene on one level and a sexual metaphor as another.

Things like that are very interesting. This whole thread reminds me of "critical thinking" that we did after we read novels in highschool. Pulling out 'underlying themes'

I think the Dark Phoenix Saga is much in the same catergory as the 'climax' of X1. I think on the surface and its most basic level serves as a story about love, corruption, temptation, sacrafice etc.

If you were to read into it I could see drawing some themeatic similarities between sexual maturity and even the Kaballah that Matt linked to. Claremont's writing has always had very strong sexual undertones.

However its hard to say that any of this female sexual power stuff is/was intentional without asking CC himself.

[Sir Tim Drake]

First of all, I think it's important to point out that the readings of the Phoenix Saga and female sexuality don't seem to be unitary. Please correct me if I mangle your interpretations. For example, I take Sir Tim and Noah (and Gilda, to some extent) to hold much more derogatory views about the attitude toward female sexuality in the saga. Wes seems to view the story as a commentary on sexual anxiety, not a condemnation of sexuality. Sir Tim, on the other hand seems to view it as mysognistic.

Not necessarily-- I actually think the story is less misogynistic than it seems, and that the misogynistic nature of the ending is mostly due to editorial interference. I am kind of troubled by the implication that the only way to escape from bad sexuality is by dying, but I think it's possible to read this in a non-misogynistic light. I'm just not sure how exactly.

And some of this may be related to personal preference. Sir Tim's a bigger Titans guy and he's critical of CC. I'm a bigger X-Men guy and I think CC tends to treat his female characters better than Wolfman has. I'm one of those folks who's felt that the Wonder Girl-Terry Long coupling was kinda creepy and didn't really dig the portrayal of Koriandr.

*puts hand on sword hilt* What was that about Kory?

No, just kidding... Marv did make his female characters suffer as much as Chris did, if not more so. On the other hand, he didn't treat his male characters very well either. Dick's slow transformation into an obsessive, hateful psychopath, climaxing around the time of NTT #34 and Annual #2, was just as painful as, for example, Kory's kidnapping by Blackfire. (Although on the other other hand, if these stories had not been so bleak and depressing, their ultimate happy endings would not have been so effective and uplifting.)

I don't know if my being a Titans fan is really relevant here, though. I also really, really like Claremont's X-Men, even though it's sometimes difficult to get past Claremont's bad prose style. I think he's a slightly worse writer than Marv, but that doesn't mean that my criticisms are entirely negative. If I'm trying to deconstruct Claremont's stories, it's only because I think these stories are worth reading, and therefore worth trying to understand better.

[spoon_jenkins]

*puts hand on sword hilt* What was that about Kory?

No, just kidding... Marv did make his female characters suffer as much as Chris did, if not more so. On the other hand, he didn't treat his male characters very well either. Dick's slow transformation into an obsessive, hateful psychopath, climaxing around the time of NTT #34 and Annual #2, was just as painful as, for example, Kory's kidnapping by Blackfire. (Although on the other other hand, if these stories had not been so bleak and depressing, their ultimate happy endings would not have been so effective and uplifting.)
I don't want to thread drift too much (but I guess I started already), but I meant something a little bit different regarding Kory. Not really her suffering as much as her portrayal. I think Marv made remarks through Starfire that she wasn't a brainless sex object and that she's a three-dimensional person. But I think oftentimes he failed in pursuit of that objective and she often just came across as the eye candy. That's why she's my least favorite female Titan (maybe even least favorite Titan). IMO Claremont did a better job in making attractive female characters three-dimensional.

Disclaimer: I have read most of the 1980 NTT series and a little early stuff from the Baxter series, so my opinion isn't based on later Titans stuff.