So what is in continuity now?

[kane]

Well, am i confused.

First there was pre-crisis (out of continuity after the crisis (the first)) and post- crisis (Byrnes continuity).

Then came birthright and infinite crisis. Now the continuity is a mixture of Byrne, Birtright and infinity crisis. Should there be an issue 0 to explain the current superman history?

[NotSuper]

We still don't know exactly what is in continuity. We're not in the post-Crisis era anymore, that's the Old Earth. What we have now is a new continuity (that is still being built) which takes place on New Earth. Some of the past continuity is still valid but much of it is brand new.

[glennsim]

Well, am i confused.

First there was pre-crisis (out of continuity after the crisis (the first)) and post- crisis (Byrnes continuity).

Then came birthright and infinite crisis. Now the continuity is a mixture of Byrne, Birtright and infinity crisis. Should there be an issue 0 to explain the current superman history?

DC is going to slowly reveal that to us over time. That way they can let the various writers do what they want as long as they don't contradict each other (hopefully).

I assume we'll get some clue in the backups to 52.

[ghost_hounds]

According to wikipedia, Birthright is now considered the canon origin.

[Lorendiac]

Here's one of the big problem areas in Superman-related continuity at the moment: Matrix Supergirl, Matrix-merged-with-Linda Supergirl, and Linda Danvers Supergirl.

Three things happened on the same day:

1. "Infinite Crisis #7" came out.

2. Dan DiDio stated for the record that Matrix has been erased from the current official continuity.

3. Geoff Johns stated on his own forum (in reaction to complaints about what DiDio had just said elsewhere) that Linda Danvers Supergirl has not been erased from the current official continuity.

DiDio did not specifically say: "And Peter David's Linda Danvers Supergirl has also been erased! Just like Matrix!"

Johns did not specifically say: "And John Byrne's Matrix Supergirl is also still in continuity! Just like Linda Danvers!"

I haven't heard any follow-up on the subject since then. So it's all up in the air as to just what each man meant, and whether or not they had actually talked to each other lately regarding what versions of "Supergirl" were or were not going to survive the transition to Post-IC continuity.

Has anybody heard any news on that subject in the last couple of weeks?

[dupersuper]

The more I hear about Didio, the more he pisses me off.

[ghost_hounds]

I don't think Matrix is erased from continuity because all of the 90's death of stuff is still supposed to have happened, unless I read something completely wrong.

As for multiple super girls showing up, just check the latest issue of Batman/Superman..hehehe...

[Colossus]

I hope the Clark Kent as Superboy is not a big tease.

Part of me still hopes a young Clark was a part of the Legion.

[dancj]

I don't think Matrix is erased from continuity because all of the 90's death of stuff is still supposed to have happened, unless I read something completely wrong.

That won't stop the story from having happened. It would just mean the story happened slightly differently to how we remember it

Dan

[PatrickG]

The Pocket Universe HAS to be out of continuity. It doesn't belong anywhere near "New Earth" continuity.

Among other things, the Pocket Universe was created because Superman was never Superboy.

Post-IC, he WAS Superboy.

The Pocket Universe is also tied to a version of the Legion that's four reboots old.

It's also confusing for Superman to have killed Zod when the real Zod is alive and in the Phantom Zone.

My feeling is that when the dust settles, Linda Danvers may still be a part of the DCU's history but that Matrix will be a genetic experiment of LexCorp rather than genetic experiment that is the survivor of an alien universe.

[dupersuper]

The logion's only a possible future, and can be rebooted endlessly without affecting current continuity. If you discount the pocket universe saga because it involves an older version, then that cuts out "time and time again", Impulse/flash stories with XS, the stories that had a legion contingent in the 20th century (including zero hour and final night), and both titans X-overs, the last of witch lead to the current reboot in the first place. There's no reason the pocket universe doesn't still work fine.

[lawman]

The logion's only a possible future, and can be rebooted endlessly without affecting current continuity. If you discount the pocket universe saga because it involves an older version, then that cuts out "time and time again", Impulse/flash stories with XS, the stories that had a legion contingent in the 20th century (including zero hour and final night), and both titans X-overs, the last of witch lead to the current reboot in the first place. There's no reason the pocket universe doesn't still work fine.
Absolutely right. Plus, you can't just yank away Matrix, the Pocket Universe, and that version of Zod and still expect the rest of the dominoes to fall the same way. Without that series of events, Superman would never have gone on his self-imposed space exile, which (1) led to his code against killing; (2) led to meeting the Eradicator (which, BTW, depends on elements of Byrne's Krypton), without which he would never have created a Fortress and, rather more importantly, would not have come back from the dead after being killed by Doomsday, and (3) led to meeting Mongul, without which you don't get Panic in the Sky, or the later destruction of Coast City. Take away the destruction of Coast City, of course, and you don't get Hal becoming Parallax, which means Zero Hour couldn't have happened (okay, no great loss there, but still...), and that nobody would have been in a position to save the Earth in either Final Night or Day of Judgment. And the ripple effects just keep on coming...

It's twenty years of intertwined stories. You can't just start yanking out threads and expect the fabric to stay intact.

[Forsaken_One]

According to wikipedia, Birthright is now considered the canon origin.
Wikipedia is as trustworthy as any other unofficial website. As in it's not trustworthy. Good starting place, but not a good final information source.

[jwd]

Superman: Confidential is suppose to cover some of Superman's early adventures.

Also Kurt Busiek has stated they will cover some of his past in Superman and Action Comics.

[glennsim]

Absolutely right. Plus, you can't just yank away Matrix, the Pocket Universe, and that version of Zod and still expect the rest of the dominoes to fall the same way. Without that series of events, Superman would never have gone on his self-imposed space exile, which (1) led to his code against killing; (2) led to meeting the Eradicator (which, BTW, depends on elements of Byrne's Krypton), without which he would never have created a Fortress and, rather more importantly, would not have come back from the dead after being killed by Doomsday, and (3) led to meeting Mongul, without which you don't get Panic in the Sky, or the later destruction of Coast City. Take away the destruction of Coast City, of course, and you don't get Hal becoming Parallax, which means Zero Hour couldn't have happened (okay, no great loss there, but still...), and that nobody would have been in a position to save the Earth in either Final Night or Day of Judgment. And the ripple effects just keep on coming...

It's twenty years of intertwined stories. You can't just start yanking out threads and expect the fabric to stay intact.

Pre-Crisis, Superman had a code against killing and a Fortress without the Pocket Universe or Matrix.

You can come up with any number of simple origins for Eradicator without having to have Byrne's Krypton in place.

Superman could have any number of excuses to go into space and hack off Mongul. And for that matter, Mongul doesn't need that much of an excuse to come to Earth and try to take it over.

[Rod G]

Hopefully the whole "Luthor as president" fiasco has been retconned out of continuity.

Meaning someone else got elected president instead,with Pete Ross as senator (not vice president or president).


At this point,I'll settle for an unnamed president.

[lawman]

Pre-Crisis, Superman had a code against killing and a Fortress without the Pocket Universe or Matrix.

You can come up with any number of simple origins for Eradicator without having to have Byrne's Krypton in place.

Superman could have any number of excuses to go into space and hack off Mongul. And for that matter, Mongul doesn't need that much of an excuse to come to Earth and try to take it over.
All true. As DC demonstrated post-Crisis the first time, you can "come up with" any number of ways to re-imagine old stories to get roughly the same results.

Thing is, doing so means you have to actually go back and re-tell those stories at some point. Is that kind of effort (for both readers and writers) really a worthwhile trade-off for whatever questionable satisfaction derives from the editorial dicta that some past character or event is now negated?

Furthermore, as the last go-round amply demonstrated, those re-writes are not without consequences of their own. Attempts to "patch" past continuity create new ripple effects and unanticipated consequences, requiring more fixes (can anyone say "Hawkman"? "Legion"? "Power Girl"?), and it can take years until anyone is clear on what the "past" looks like.

This would be the exact antithesis of DC's professed desire to focus on the future. It would be repeating the worst side-effects of the first Crisis, rather than trying to improve on it. Why not just let the past be the past, and leave well enough alone?

Hopefully the whole "Luthor as president" fiasco has been retconned out of continuity.
Meaning someone else got elected president instead,with Pete Ross as senator (not vice president or president).
At this point,I'll settle for an unnamed president.
Thankfully (IMHO, of course, for the reasons I just outlined), 52 #3 established that this isn't so, so your desire to see several years' worth of stories nullified (to what end, really?) is frustrated in this case. We have on-panel statements saying Luthor was formerly president (meaning, presumably, that Ross was VP), and that Horne is now.

[glennsim]

Why not just let the past be the past, and leave well enough alone?

Well, one could ask then why we have to worry about the ramifications of the loss of the Pocket Universe...if the past doesn't matter, just assume that things worked out somehow and move forward from there.

[Rod G]

All true. As DC demonstrated post-Crisis the first time, you can "come up with" any number of ways to re-imagine old stories to get roughly the same results.

Thing is, doing so means you have to actually go back and re-tell those stories at some point. Is that kind of effort (for both readers and writers) really a worthwhile trade-off for whatever questionable satisfaction derives from the editorial dicta that some past character or event is now negated?

Furthermore, as the last go-round amply demonstrated, those re-writes are not without consequences of their own. Attempts to "patch" past continuity create new ripple effects and unanticipated consequences, requiring more fixes (can anyone say "Hawkman"? "Legion"? "Power Girl"?), and it can take years until anyone is clear on what the "past" looks like.

This would be the exact antithesis of DC's professed desire to focus on the future. It would be repeating the worst side-effects of the first Crisis, rather than trying to improve on it. Why not just let the past be the past, and leave well enough alone?


Thankfully (IMHO, of course, for the reasons I just outlined), 52 #3 established that this isn't so, so your desire to see several years' worth of stories nullified (to what end, really?) is frustrated in this case. We have on-panel statements saying Luthor was formerly president (meaning, presumably, that Ross was VP), and that Horne is now.


There was no point in making Luthor president just because some writer did not care for Bush getting elected.

In any case,it seems that Lawman is the only one that I know of who actually liked the idea of Luthor as president.The rest of us are actually too glad to see this notion retconned out.

[Mike Smash!]

There was no point in making Luthor president just because some writer did not care for Bush getting elected.Luthor being President was decided long before the 2000 election and had nothing to do with any writer's opinion of Bush.

In any case,it seems that Lawman is the only one that I know of who actually liked the idea of Luthor as president.The rest of us are actually too glad to see this notion retconned out.It's still in continuity. It's been mentioned in 52 and in the Superman titles since IC.

I liked the idea of Luthor being President, but I think the writers blew its potential. It could have been great.

[NotSuper]

Well, one could ask then why we have to worry about the ramifications of the loss of the Pocket Universe...if the past doesn't matter, just assume that things worked out somehow and move forward from there.
I think that would be for the best. Personally, I'm glad the pocket universe is gone. Without it we have one less Zod in continuity, we have Superman cleared of pre-meditated killing, we have one less Supergirl, and one less reference to a Legion that no longer exists. Frankly, eliminating it clears away a lot of things that aren't needed.

[lawman]

Well, one could ask then why we have to worry about the ramifications of the loss of the Pocket Universe...if the past doesn't matter, just assume that things worked out somehow and move forward from there.
You're putting words in my mouth -- I never suggested the past "doesn't matter." Quite the contrary, I think it should be left alone as much as reasonably possible because it does matter. It's what led to the characters and settings as we find them today.

The last thing I want to do with my comics (or any other entertainment) is "just assume that things worked out somehow," and for a writer (or company) to ask that of me is an insult to my intelligence. Otherwise I could do it about the present stories as well, and save myself quite a lot of money and time.

[dupersuper]

DC really needs to understand that EVERY time they retroactively change stories they A)risk screwing subsequent stories up B)undermine the whole suspension of disbelief thing and C) risk alienating fans who enjoyed those stories. Stan Lee used to say every comic comic is some ones' first...but he meant that writers should recap as needed in the story...not restart everything to "make comics more accessable" whenever new writers don't like the old stuff...just to piss off these new readers in a few years anyway, when future writers decide they don't like the current stories...

[Kilgore Trout]

C) risk alienating fans who enjoyed those stories.

I think its doubtful that they care about alienating fans.

Its been proved over and over again that worrying about what fans think gets the same treatment as General Zinni's concerns got on the Iraq war...

In other words:

Fans want: Clarity

Fans get: A lesbian Batwoman.

[glennsim]

You're putting words in my mouth -- I never suggested the past "doesn't matter." Quite the contrary, I think it should be left alone as much as reasonably possible because it does matter. It's what led to the characters and settings as we find them today.

The last thing I want to do with my comics (or any other entertainment) is "just assume that things worked out somehow," and for a writer (or company) to ask that of me is an insult to my intelligence. Otherwise I could do it about the present stories as well, and save myself quite a lot of money and time.

But isn't that what we've been doing since 1985? Wonder Woman wasn't an original member of the Justice League post-Crisis, but aside from a few stories here and there, we don't really know how the stories that involved her happened. And that's just once example. The history of the DCU has been a mystery for about 20 years. We just assume that somehow the JLA and JSA being on the same Earth didn't cause any problems other than the ones that got pointed out.

Heck, you could argue that you haven't really known a character's history since Superboy was introduced, since that was the first retcon. And he proceed to battle Nazis, something the Superman in 1984 wouldn't have done in his childhood.

Given the fluidity of DC history, you can't really say that any past event led to the characters and settings as we find them today, because they've already proven that they can change the past without revising the present.

Or to reverse that, there's no reason they can't change the characters as they appear today, to reflect the changes in their past. Given the reality-shattering effects of the creaton of New Earth, we don't really know if Superman has a code against killing, or if he has ever met an Eradicator. This is (potentially) a whole new world, where nothing that came before really matters. Which is GOOD, because instead of having to wonder how some new element fits with an old one, you can just assume the old one isn't in place any more.

[Kara Zor El]

Fans get: A lesbian Batwoman.

Thank the Lord for that!