x-man and franklin richards.

[Kid Quick Foots]

are they still considered the two most powerful mutants? i remember when x-man first arrived they said he could go toe to toe with the dark pheonix, and franklin can do basically "anything" he wants, make a parallel universe inside of a ball? sure. play galactus? why not.

[The Lucky One]

Franklin Richards is #1; or at least he is when he has his powers, which is not now. Below him is everyone else- the Phoenix Force, Mad Jim Jaspers, Legion, X-Man, etc. But most of those are dead or in a coma, including X-Man (dead), so it's a bit moot. Most powerful mutant living right now might be James Braddock. Or else Proteus or Mr. M (is he still alive? Didn't read 198 #5.)

-D

[Cicero]

Franklin Richards is #1; or at least he is when he has Or else Proteus or Mr. M (is he still alive? Didn't read 198 #5.)

-D


Spoilers for the fifth issue of X-Men: The 198


It's not really clear whether Mr. M is alive or not. He was killed, but then returned as a profusion of butterflies.

[widdershins]

Franklin Richards is #1; or at least he is when he has his powers, which is not now. Below him is everyone else- the Phoenix Force, Mad Jim Jaspers, Legion, X-Man, etc. But most of those are dead or in a coma, including X-Man (dead), so it's a bit moot. Most powerful mutant living right now might be James Braddock. Or else Proteus or Mr. M (is he still alive? Didn't read 198 #5.)

-D

The idea that Franklin is above the Phoenix or Mad Jim Jaspers has never been stated anywhere.A lot of beings much less powerful than these two and not considered a threat to the Universe/Multiverse have been able to create pocket universes,from the Watchers to the Impossible Man to the Shaper of Worlds (the lowest cosmic cube).Furthermore,Franklin burned out his powers simply to revive Galactus,while the shard of Phoenix which went to Rachel easily overpowered him.
As for X-man,Moira said that the readings were paragonable only to that of Phoenix,which is fair enough,but does not mean that he could go toe to toe with Phoenix,expecially given the fact that when the psychic circuit-breakers finally broke her power began to grow exponentially.When she left earth she was already much more powerful then when she took the readings,and after destroying D'Bari she said that,though her power was great,it was still nothing compared to when she was in the M'Krann Crystal.

[Kid Quick Foots]

ok, but if phoenix is so powerful how come sinister, apocalyps, and onslaught all go for eather xman and/or franklin when trying to take over the world? they could care less about jean and the phoenix force, her offspring on the other hand... not trying to start any kinda crap, im just curious. thanx for the replies.

[Daithi]

Franklin is still just a kid at this point and he just outpowers everybody. Obviously no FF4 writer wants an insanely powerful kid of their team so he's "burnt out" for now. Just like how Jean is "collecting shards of herself".

[The Lucky One]

The idea that Franklin is above the Phoenix or Mad Jim Jaspers has never been stated anywhere.

That's true. What sets Franklin above other reality manipulators in my eyes -- aside from scale -- is this his effects tend to be more permanent. Proteus can warp reality on a local scale, but it goes back to normal when he stops focusing on it. Mad Jim Jaspers warped reality on a universal scale, but everything also reverted to normal when he died. (Although come to think of it, the Crazy Gang DID stick around... hmmm.) Franklin, on the other hand, has lost his powers but Counter-Earth still exists, and he's much younger than Jim Jaspers was when he started using his powers. However, they might be about comparable in power.

The Phoenix is a cosmic entity, not a mortal being, and thus probably exempt from the running.

ok, but if pheonix is so powerful how come sinister, apocalyps, and onslaught all go for eather xman and/or franklin when trying to take over the world? they could care less about jean and the phonix force, her offspring on the other hand... not trying to start any kinda crap, im just curious. thanx for the replies.

Truth? Bad writing in the 90's, but if you want an in-continuity explanation, it's this: the Phoenix Force wasn't around much in the 90's, Jim Jaspers was dead, and Legion was in a coma (first half of the 90's) or dead (second half).

The reason Sinister is so hung up on Summers DNA, as mentioned in the comics, is because it acts as a catalyst, enhancing the powers of the mother in the child. Thus, a child of Jean and Scott would be an immensely powerful telepath/telekinetic; a child of Alex and Lorna would be comparable to Magneto. This fact, however, has been somewhat called into question by recent events involving Jean and the Phoenix, so no one really knows for sure.

-D

[Kid Quick Foots]

who is this jim jaspers dude? ive been away from the books for awhile as you may have noticed. the last x-story i read was when prof x's sister turned up and took over or something, i think her name was cassandra if im not mistaken, after that and all this secondary mutation stuff i just threw in the towel.

[riotgear]

who is this jim jaspers dude? ive been away from the books for awhile as you may have noticed. the last x-story i read was when prof x's sister turned up and took over or something, i think her name was cassandra if im not mistaken, after that and all this secondary mutation stuff i just threw in the towel.

Mad Jim Jaspers was a politician who manifested reality-altering powers, originally popping up in the Captain Britain series across the pond. He created a new reality where everyone was in prison camps, etc. If I recall correctly, the Fury was created to take him out.

[Mikl C]

wasn't onslaught interested in jean? he approached her on the astral plane and then tried to rip her power out of her. although at this time im pretty sure phoenix was astill a cosmic entity and jean's mind was only the "template for" it.

[widdershins]

Proteus is definitely much less powerful,it's true.
I'm a bit hazy,but I think that when the Counter-Earth was brought into our Universe some of his inhabitants "evaporated"-they were just energy constructs.
As for Jaspers,the warpies did last for a long time after his death before reverting to normal.I believe given time the changes would have been permanent.That's why the continuum of Earth-238 had to be destroyed;because it was too late to revert the changes.The Jaspers of our dimension had just begun to use his powers,and wasnt so much concentrating on making permanent changes,but rather constantly changing reality to torture Captain Britain when the Fury arrived.

As for the phoenix,to me is a cosmic force (rather than entity) whose form on this plane of reality has been shaped by Jean (as said in classic x-men 8)
when she reached the full potential of her genome when she died on the shuttle.On sh'iar space,when Xavier learns that Jean has contained the neutron galaxy in the original phoenix saga,he says something to the effect that he knew she had that potential,but he thought she would have never reached it in her life.In x-men forever,we see a flashback of his notes on a computer in which he says that Jean has infinite potential.In her case,the death has been the catalyst to unleash this potential.That's why I believe the children of Jean and Scott may be more powerful that "normal" Jean,but not phoenix,which is already the full potential of her genes.

ok, but if phoenix is so powerful how come sinister, apocalyps, and onslaught all go for eather xman and/or franklin when trying to take over the world? they could care less about jean and the phoenix force, her offspring on the other hand... not trying to start any kinda crap, im just curious. thanx for the replies.


Probably because they buyed the retcon and thought that phoenix is a force wholly indepent from Jean.Others,like Necrom and the Stranger,tried to channel the phoenix to take over not just the world,but the Multiverse.In the Age of Apocalypse Sinister was only interested in combining Jean and Scott genes,but in the new mini,when she died and and was reborn (saving the entire timeline and pushing back the bombs) he suddenly began to call her "mutant alpha" said she had the power of the first mutant from which all the others derived and which he had searched all his life.Basically her death again triggered a phoenix transformation,and Sinister reevalued her importance,which he did not realize at first when she was "normal Jean".

[riotgear]

wasn't onslaught interested in jean? he approached her on the astral plane and then tried to rip her power out of her. although at this time im pretty sure phoenix was astill a cosmic entity and jean's mind was only the "template for" it.

That was the pervy "I've always loved Jean Grey" Xavier-side of his mind.

[Kid Quick Foots]

Proteus is definitely much less powerful,it's true.
I'm a bit hazy,but I think that when the Counter-Earth was brought into our Universe some of his inhabitants "evaporated"-they were just energy constructs.
As for Jaspers,the warpies did last for a long time after his death before reverting to normal.I believe given time the changes would have been permanent.That's why the continuum of Earth-238 had to be destroyed;because it was too late to revert the changes.The Jaspers of our dimension had just begun to use his powers,and wasnt so much concentrating on making permanent changes,but rather constantly changing reality to torture Captain Britain when the Fury arrived.

As for the phoenix,to me is a cosmic force (rather than entity) whose form on this plane of reality has been shaped by Jean (as said in classic x-men 8)
when she reached the full potential of her genome when she died on the shuttle.On sh'iar space,when Xavier learns that Jean has contained the neutron galaxy in the original phoenix saga,he says something to the effect that he knew she had that potential,but he thought she would have never reached it in her life.In x-men forever,we see a flashback of his notes on a computer in which he says that Jean has infinite potential.In her case,the death has been the catalyst to unleash this potential.That's why I believe the children of Jean and Scott may be more powerful that "normal" Jean,but not phoenix,which is already the full potential of her genes.




Probably because they buyed the retcon and thought that phoenix is a force wholly indepent from Jean.Others,like Necrom and the Stranger,tried to channel the phoenix to take over not just the world,but the Multiverse.In the Age of Apocalypse Sinister was only interested in combining Jean and Scott genes,but in the new mini,when she died and and was reborn (saving the entire timeline and pushing back the bombs) he suddenly began to call her "mutant alpha" said she had the power of the first mutant from which all the others derived and which he had searched all his life.Basically her death again triggered a phoenix transformation,and Sinister reevalued her importance,which he did not realize at first when she was "normal Jean".


so, what exactly IS the phoenix? is it a cosmic level entity on scale with galactus and silver surfer? or just jeans potential to the nth degree?

[Titan76]

wasn't onslaught interested in jean?
Yes he was. He grab her whole body and brought it into the astral plane but he wasn't able to get Jean to go with him as she was too much for him to control and thus he threw her out of the astral.

[Titan76]

ok, but if phoenix is so powerful how come sinister, apocalyps, and onslaught all go for eather xman and/or franklin when trying to take over the world? they could care less about jean and the phoenix force, her offspring on the other hand... not trying to start any kinda crap, im just curious. thanx for the replies.
Sinister and Apocalypse have always been interested in Jean, Sinister mainly. The reason they were more interesting in X-Man during that time is because at that time Marvel's policy was Jean and Phoenix were separate beings and not one which drop Jean in power. Sinister and Apoclaypse also wouldn't be able to handle the power of the Phoenix force like Jean can so going after it when they wouldn't be able to handle it would be dumb.

And Sinister and Apoclypse have never try to take Franklin, only Onslaught.

Also because Apoclypse has always feard the power of Jean's offspring(which is why Sinister always wanted Jean and Scott to have a child) and X-Man was Cable without the techo-virus and thus was powerful enough to kill Apoclypse.

[The Fury]

Franklin Richards is #1; or at least he is when he has his powers, which is not now. Below him is everyone else- the Phoenix Force, Mad Jim Jaspers, Legion, X-Man, etc. But most of those are dead or in a coma, including X-Man (dead), so it's a bit moot. Most powerful mutant living right now might be James Braddock. Or else Proteus or Mr. M (is he still alive? Didn't read 198 #5.)

-D
Problem here, there is a large difference between reality changing and warping powers....oh and being mad of course. The problem is we do not know the full extent of Franklins powers or who they work in realtion to reality.

While Sir Jimmy and Jamie Braddock warp solid matter as well as creating something from nothing. Scarelt Witch's reality powers are that of probability based, they do not warp solid matter, they change already existing things. Franklin is well, mainly matter based but also energy based. ...I'm confused.

But reality destorying cancer is above most in the case of Jaspers.


Mad Jim Jaspers was a politician who manifested reality-altering powers, originally popping up in the Captain Britain series across the pond. He created a new reality where everyone was in prison camps, etc. If I recall correctly, the Fury was created to take him out.
:)

No exactly. There are 2 Mad Jim Jaspers known, one from Earth-238 (who is dead) and Eath-616 (who was dead, now status unknown). Both have etremely high reality-warping powers, they can bend and reshape reality as they see fit. Their powers are based on an exponential factor based on what he could do with his mind, first he just had a high IQ, then that slowly develoed into genious, then it increased to a level where what he wanted happened, he probably passed telepathy and TK level at some point between the 2.

Ignoring the fact there are 2 of them. Jaspers politcal stance was the superhumans should be dealt with and that they should not be allowed to wander the world freely. In Earth 238 he succeeded in creating a Superhuman free world by creating The Fury, which killed all the superhumans. 238 Jaspers then went mad and started to warp reality on such a scale that Universe 238 had to be whipped from existance. The Fury survived this.

Meanwhile, 616-Jaspers, was trying to become Prime Minister of Britain with one of his main stances being the superhuman thing above. He was elected and was immediatly started putting superhumans into camp. Captain Britain went to stop Jaspers but was intercepted by The Fur from earth-238. Jaspers-616 and The Fury fought and the Fury won. The Fury was not designed to kill Jaspers but was manipulated to kill Jaspers. This all happened in out reality. Just not many people remember it...except Cap B and a few others (Cap UK, Psylocke).
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Fanboy mode off.

[The Lucky One]

who is this jim jaspers dude? ive been away from the books for awhile as you may have noticed. the last x-story i read was when prof x's sister turned up and took over or something.

Just to supplement what The Fury already mentioned, here's a couple links for info on Mad Jim Jaspers (as well as The Fury and what could have happened during the Mutant Massacre and Fall of the Mutants).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Jim_Jaspers

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm

-D