New Excalibur #7 - Review and Spoilers [Archive]

Brian Cronin

05-24-2006, 02:07 AM

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6305/556/400/NEWXCAL007_col.0.jpg

Sadly, due to an illness, Chris Claremont was unable to script this issue of New Excalibur. Luckily, New X-Men co-writer Chris Yost was able to step in and do a nice fill-in scripting job.

I was overally pretty pleased with this issue. A fairly slight issue, all things considered, but it had all the makings of a good superhero story present in this comic.

First off, apparently, Dazzler now has some sort of thing going on with her that she cannot be killed. I am sure Claremont has something planned in regards to this, and I hope he gets back to this title in time to address this plotline, because I worry about letting another writer resolve it without Claremont's input - I don't want to see another "Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin" type deal here.

The members of Excalibur are split up, with Juggernaut and Nocturne helping out at a disaster site while the other members help transfer some bad guys at a prison. However, they are ambushed by Black Air, the evil organization that Pete Wisdom's sister works for, who are at a prison trying to break out the "Evil X-Men" from the first New Excalibur storyline (evil analogues to the five original X-Men and Professor X). Their agent on the scene in Black Tom Cassidey, who is no longer a mutant, but has new powers courtesy of Black Air.

Meanwhile, while Captain Britain deals with Tom's robot plants and Dazzler comes back to life, Sage is being attacked on the mental plane by the evil Professor X. This is an interesting story where I HOPE that it is not as simple as it seems. While in the mindscape, Sage says something like, "You're in my mind, so I'm in control," and shoots the evil Professor X in the mindscape, which apparently kills him. If this is the beginning of some new story involving Sage's powers, then I'm cool with it, but if that is just supposed to be "par for the course" for Sage, then that's more than a bit silly.

Pete Wisdom has an interesting scene where Pete thinks about using his "hot knives" to ignite a gas tank to kill everyone in the prison area, including himself, so long as it defeats the plans of Black Air. Sage convinces him not to, and he agrees, because he is learning to be a hero (pretty silly scene, actually, now that I think about it).

The cavalry shows up here, and we get probably the highlight of the book, where Juggernaut tries to convince Black Tom, who is left behind when Black Air escapes, to surrender. Very nice scene between two friends. Good idea by Claremont and well scripted by Yost.

Throughout the comic, Michael Ryan and inker Rick Ketcham don't exactly HURT the comic, as they tell a clear story. But they certainly don't AID the story any, either, especially as Ryan's clean, almost cartoonish art does not suit the tone of the story all that well. ESPECIALLY Pete Wisdom, who really just looks goofy walking around in a suit next to these colorful characters in a book this bright.

Anyhow, like I said, this had all the makings of a good superhero story - multiple plots, a lot of action, some good characterizations, some interesting plotlines for characters. I think this was definitely my favorite issue of this series since #1. So I would recommend it, with the slight reservation that I do not know how well this series comes off to those not already fairly versed in the X-Universe.

(Cross-posted here (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2003/05/new-excalibur-7-review.html)).

The Fury

05-24-2006, 03:17 AM

A nice book. I agree with you Brian on the art. The style is definately clean and precise with bright colours, and maybe the book does need a darker feel to it.

The story was good. Yost did a good job with the dialog and Claremont's story was played out nice.

When does Tieri take over for a few issues? (for warning sake)

fishtaco

05-24-2006, 06:11 AM

Thanks for the fair review, Brian. I think it sounds good, and I hope Claremont gets back soon. I agree about the art, too.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 07:32 AM

Cheers Brian, for beating Novaya Havoc to the punch with a fair and balanced review.

Question (As I'm still waiting my copy) isit actually stated that Romany Wisdom (Pete's Sister) is involved with Black Air?

Last we saw of her, in X-Force, she was hosting an alien species, destined to take over earth when mankind were gone.

I certainly see more potential in Black Air's return, and hope this now takes the title properly forward.

ddqfpluskick

05-24-2006, 08:35 AM

Wait a minute.

Why do all the evil X-men retain their powers. Hell every Supervillian team lost some members so why not them?

Steven F.

05-24-2006, 08:45 AM

This was a VERY nice review and very balanced and fair. It is about time. Thanks Brian!

The Fury

05-24-2006, 08:52 AM

Wait a minute.

Why do all the evil X-men retain their powers. Hell every Supervillian team lost some members so why not them?
Do you mean after Decimation?

Well, as alternate reality characters, they were probably not in the 616 reality when it was changed. In the House of M: Day after book, it was stated by Emma that there was a large spike in England just after. It could have been Evil Xavier and his mutants entering the 616.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 09:41 AM

In the House of M: Day after book, it was stated by Emma that there was a large spike in England just after. It could have been Evil Xavier and his mutants entering the 616.

You know, I'd never thought of that. It's plausible, I suppose. Although I guess that spike could cover everything from Vulcan to the crazy stuff going on in New Avengers, right now.

Zombienorthstar

05-24-2006, 09:43 AM

Brian Cronin

05-24-2006, 09:46 AM

Beast

05-24-2006, 10:04 AM

I think it's pretty likely that the blip was the Evil X-Men. Remember, Claremont wrote that special, so it is pretty reasonable to think that he was setting up the first issue of Excalibur there, no?

-Brian
Yes. Especially since the group that went to the UK was established in the same special. So it was likely the Shadow X-Men. And/Or Mad Jim Jaspers/Fury that was brought back to life due to the HoM wave also arriving. Since we saw him in the HoM issues in Otherworld.

Faded

05-24-2006, 01:02 PM

Novaya can post his opinions later at least. :p

Anyway, I think I'll skip this issue. There definitely seems like there will be a connection between Dazzler's immunity to death and Psylocke's immunity from Jamie Braddock. I'll admit I'm intrigued with where they're going with this.

Madrox84

05-24-2006, 01:08 PM

Sounds like a pretty good issue.

I'm going to have to agree about the art aswell.

Novaya Havoc

05-24-2006, 05:21 PM

Ugh. Another Grade C book.

I'll hand it to Claremont/Yost. They did a decent action issue. But all NEX seems to be are decent action issues. There is nothing spectacular about the action, and there is nothing spectacular about the art depicting said action, so it comes off as "meh."

It was fun to watch Dazzler come in and kick all sorts of ass. But just as with the Warwolves and Dark X-Men, the villain comes in, and goes just as easily. And for what? Nothing. The plot, as always, is anemic and beside the point. Claremont (and to a lesser extent, his fans) are so inbred with the idea of threading multiple plots together that the story cannot focus on one plot or hold any sense of linearity to save its life.

For one arc -- just ONE arc -- I would love to see Claremont do a linear, self-contained arc. He had to dip in four issues, and then pull back to form the team. He has to dip in seven issues, to pull back on why Dazzler is constantly dying. He dips in 5 issues to bring in Warwolves and Lionheart, and has yet to pull back. DaVinci Code, it isn't. There's no suspense or sense of familiarity and build-up with this style of writing.

Villain attacks. New Excalibur scatters. New Excalibur recollects to defeat the bad guys in the second issue. Meanwhile, nothing is made of an actual story. Rinse and repeat. That's how it's been through the first three "arcs" (or better yet: two-parters). It makes for dull, undynamic reading. Sure, it's fun to watch Dazzler come back and kick all sorts of ass (kudos for use of a laser "shield!"), but it's boring to watch Juggernaut "talk down" Black Tom and just rid the book of yet another villain.

Oh, and if you just can't get enough of Sage, you again get to see her supreme will in action, as she uh, shoots psychic Xavier in the psychic face with a psychic shotgun on the psychic plane. Holy moly: I never expected Sage to pull through!

No suspense.

Grade: C. C+/B- if you want a generous grade that doesn't account for my hatred of the Al Blaire design.

-B

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 05:22 PM

Yes. Especially since the group that went to the UK was established in the same special. So it was likely the Shadow X-Men. And/Or Mad Jim Jaspers/Fury that was brought back to life due to the HoM wave also arriving. Since we saw him in the HoM issues in Otherworld.

Yes it never was really clear as to whether that reincarnated Sir Jimmy survived it all... Who knows.

Now I know that most ardent Dazzler fans don't like this concept of this ever returning Dazzler in New Excalibur, but it fascinates me. What links Dazzler to the original Excalibur and the Captain Britain mythos? Two things stands out for me.

Roma and the Siege Perillous.

If the seige managed to create Bastion, what the heck else could it have done to a mutant who turned out to be pregnant when she crossed through?

I'm reckoning her losing the baby, her continueously dying and coming back, and her blood disorder mentioned in House of M could all be symptoms of the Siege Perillous monkeyig with her DNA, and having possibly melded her, and her unborn child togerher - by mistake.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 05:26 PM

Anybody else reckoning on Sage seeming to have won here, only to turn out to be new host for this otherworldly Shadow King?

Novaya Havoc

05-24-2006, 05:32 PM

Anybody else reckoning on Sage seeming to have won here, only to turn out to be new host for this otherworldly Shadow King?

No. Sage is infallible. I'd throw that theory into the "Sage may actually be a Dark X-Man because her outfit sucks," bin. She just didn't defeat Xavier like she thought.

Surprise.

Affinity

05-24-2006, 05:34 PM

Wow! Civilized discussions! I never thought it possible. You all make me proud.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 05:39 PM

No. Sage is infallible. I'd throw that theory into the "Sage may actually be a Dark X-Man because her outfit sucks," bin. She just didn't defeat Xavier like she thought.

Surprise.

Fair point. Perish the thought Chris could even think of her as fallible...:D

No, I'm just thinking that as he can't do the Hellfire Story he wanted, which almost certainly would have answered the Ellias Boganm questions, this might be a sneaky way around it all.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-24-2006, 05:41 PM

Wow! Civilized discussions! I never thought it possible. You all make me proud.

It's not always a slag fest, on here...:D

Syzygy

05-24-2006, 09:10 PM

Ugh. Another Grade C book....

Oh, and if you just can't get enough of Sage, you again get to see her supreme will in action, as she uh, shoots psychic Xavier in the psychic face with a psychic shotgun on the psychic plane. Holy moly: I never expected Sage to pull through!

No suspense.

I agree. From a novice, I'd say it was average. But I thought this story was utter dreck, supposing it comes from the man who once gave us greats such as the Dark Phoenix Saga and the New Mutants in Asgard.

Sage beats a dimensional counterpart of Charles Xavier on the psychic plane.

Right.

And my farts pack the punch of a hydrogen bomb.

Kick me if I ever buy another issue of New Excalibur.

Peace,
Syzygy

Faded

05-24-2006, 09:27 PM

And my farts pack the punch of a hydrogen bomb.

:eek:

.........

:D

Volk1

05-24-2006, 11:05 PM

Kick me if I ever buy another issue of New Excalibur.

Peace,
Syzygy

I've got my boot ready Syz!:evilsmile

Rachel Grey

05-25-2006, 01:03 AM

I've got my boot ready Syz!:evilsmile

I'd love to see a survey done that shows just how many people buy comics just to complain about them. :p

The Sword Is Drawn

05-25-2006, 01:56 AM

Sage beats a dimensional counterpart of Charles Xavier on the psychic plane.

Right.

And my farts pack the punch of a hydrogen bomb.

Kick me if I ever buy another issue of New Excalibur.

Peace,
Syzygy

Yeah, but you know they'll end up being more to it than that...

Still reckon the alternative Shadow KIng will have hopped hisway into Sage's head...

Rachel Grey

05-25-2006, 02:18 AM

Yeah, but you know they'll end up being more to it than that...

Still reckon the alternative Shadow KIng will have hopped hisway into Sage's head...

Odd thought: What are the chances of Alt Shadow King having taken over Alt Xavier hence the team turning Dark?

The Sword Is Drawn

05-25-2006, 02:23 AM

Odd thought: What are the chances of Alt Shadow King having taken over Alt Xavier hence the team turning Dark?

I'd say it's pretty likely, yes.

Syzygy

05-25-2006, 03:16 AM

Yeah, but you know they'll end up being more to it than that...

Still reckon the alternative Shadow KIng will have hopped hisway into Sage's head...

You're guessing; you don't know.

I remember when Sage somehow "switched" astral forms with Lifeguard on the psychic plane, right under Lady Mastermind's nose. No explanation as to how Sage accomplished this was ever given.

Later, in a recent New Excalibur issue, she somehow managed to resist the Warwolves "skinning" power by figuring out how it works ("taking his measure"). Except that just figuring out how a power works isn't enough to resist or neutralize it (Moira MacTaggert may know all about mutant telepathy, but still have no psi-shields). No satisfactory explanation for how Sage resisted the warwolf's power was ever given.

The above two instances are only a few examples of why so many of us hate Sage: ill-defined, ill-explained powers that seem to be able to accomplish whatever feat the writer requires at the time.

That being the case, I have no good reason to believe some explanation for the current Sage miracle will ever be given.

I'd love to see a survey done that shows just how many people buy comics just to complain about them.

I keep buying Claremont because I remember the heady days of the New Mutants, where we had groundbreaking stories set in Asgard, or against Mojo, and other extraordinary tales. I keep trying to get that old Claremont feeling back, but I keep being disappointed.

I think the old man has just run out of mutant stories and needs to do something fresh. Maybe he should try some non-mutant mags to revitalize himself. That would force him to work with different characters, tell new and original stories. How about giving Claremont Dr. Strange, Tomb of Dracula, The Inhumans, or Shang-Chi: Master of Kung-Fu? I'd happily pick them up, expecting something wonderous.

The man needs a blood transfusion. Thirty years of mutants is enough to suck any writer dry.

Peace,
Syzygy

The Sword Is Drawn

05-25-2006, 03:51 AM

I think that's a bit harsh.

I doubt greatly that this will be the end of the Dark X-Men. And I'm sure we will get some more explanation/exploration of Sage's abilities at some point.

Marty4Magik

05-25-2006, 03:59 AM

How about giving Claremont Dr. Strange, Tomb of Dracula, The Inhumans, or Shang-Chi: Master of Kung-Fu? I'd happily pick them up, expecting something wonderous.

I do agree wiuth you on this somewhat, but for other reasons.

Marvel's X-line is utter crap IMHO these days, and therefore I would love it if CC took on something different then an X-book.
He did pretty good with Fantastic Four....His Doom plot was original and I loved it.
I also LOVED his Sovereign Seven....wish he would return to that.
I also have a feeling he would do pretty damn good as writer of the JLA or Teen Titans (TT is gold right now, but there are rumors of a second TT team so....)
At Marvel, I'd like to see him on Avengers...he wrote a damn good Iron Man too....Or another shot at Mekanix, one of the best things CC did since his return to Marvel.

Zombienorthstar

05-25-2006, 04:33 AM

Fair point. Perish the thought Chris could even think of her as fallible...:D

No, I'm just thinking that as he can't do the Hellfire Story he wanted, which almost certainly would have answered the Ellias Boganm questions, this might be a sneaky way around it all.

See i dont understand why he couldnt use the HC...providing he stuck to its London chapter and not use shaw etc.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-25-2006, 05:02 AM

See i dont understand why he couldnt use the HC...providing he stuck to its London chapter and not use shaw etc.

The most popularly believed theory is that Marvel Editorial told him he couldn't use the Hellfire Club because, as Astonishing is only published every two months, it would reveal the HC in Astonishing as nothing more than a figment of Emma's messed up imagination, before Whedon revealed it himself.

Returning to the London branch, with the likes of Courtney Ross, Mountjoy, Mrs Peel and others would not have detracted from Whedon's current story in my opinion, but it's done now.

Black Air are a more than suitable replacement.

fishtaco

05-25-2006, 06:43 AM

Just got the issue. Major Elias Bogan/Shadow King connection hints here.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-25-2006, 08:04 AM

Just got the issue. Major Elias Bogan/Shadow King connection hints here.

Really? What specifically?

fishtaco

05-25-2006, 09:07 AM

Really? What specifically?The fight between Sage and Dark Professor X. Those flashback scenes. One where she is killing those bandits who killed Shaw's men with a high powered rifle, then one when she is serving the Hellfire Club. Look very carefully. It's never been more obvious (to me).

Sentinel K

05-25-2006, 10:00 AM

I definately think Bogan is involved (whether he is the Shadow King or not, I couldn't say). Sage has Bogan's marks on her face at the end of the issue.

The issue as a whole was just OK, not great.

However i did really like the Juggs/Black Tom scene about Sammy. As the only good thing Austen did, I'm glad to see its not being forgotten and has become an important event in defining their relationship. Or lack of one.

7/10

Beast

05-25-2006, 10:43 AM

However i did really like the Juggs/Black Tom scene about Sammy. As the only good thing Austen did, I'm glad to see its not being forgotten and has become an important event in defining their relationship. Or lack of one.
Agreed. And it was nice to see Juggernaut written as something more than just a dumb brawler. Sure he's not the sharpest knife in the team's drawer, but he does know Black Tom a great deal. And the reveal that Tom's crazy evil nature that we've seen lately was due to his plant form makes a great deal of sense. Considering that both Juggy and Black Tom were really nothing more than thugs and crooks, with no high ambitions of world domination powers. So it was nice to see Juggy actually talk Black Tom down. :)

ibrakeforchinwe

05-25-2006, 11:32 AM

Sages tattoos look hot. I wonder if she was hiding them or she got new ones?

fishtaco

05-25-2006, 11:51 AM

Sages tattoos look hot. I wonder if she was hiding them or she got new ones?An interesting thought, that just provoked something even more in me. Can Sage mask her tattoos? Rachel masks her's. We know that Claremont planned to reveal that the Shadow King is the architect behind the Hound Program (Phoenix #1), and assuming that Elias Bogan was the Shadow King, and knowing that Elias Bogan gave Tessa her tattoos...

Does Bogan want to make Tessa a Hound?

Beast

05-25-2006, 12:34 PM

An interesting thought, that just provoked something even more in me. Can Sage mask her tattoos? Rachel masks her's. We know that Claremont planned to reveal that the Shadow King is the architect behind the Hound Program (Phoenix #1), and assuming that Elias Bogan was the Shadow King, and knowing that Elias Bogan gave Tessa her tattoos...

Does Bogan want to make Tessa a Hound?
Well. The no-prize answer for Tessa's tattoos is that she does hide them most of the time. It's more likely a case of on-again off-again forgetting to draw them that has made them re-appear. Unless they are meant to be a clue or tease that Tessa's been taken over or something. We'll have to wait and see.

ibrakeforchinwe

05-25-2006, 07:25 PM

An interesting thought, that just provoked something even more in me. Can Sage mask her tattoos? Rachel masks her's. We know that Claremont planned to reveal that the Shadow King is the architect behind the Hound Program (Phoenix #1), and assuming that Elias Bogan was the Shadow King, and knowing that Elias Bogan gave Tessa her tattoos...

Does Bogan want to make Tessa a Hound?

Im not sure whats going on. Sage has used image inducers before, so I wouldnt put it past her. She could also have been using her telepathy to mask them, but I dont see why she would make herself vulnerable for aesthetic purposes.

Maybe M Day erased her tattoos and then this Dark Xavier caused Tessa's own body to create the scars or he used his powers to. I dunno, but Im glad theyre back.

Syzygy

05-25-2006, 10:24 PM

We know that Claremont planned to reveal that the Shadow King is the architect behind the Hound Program (Phoenix #1)

If SK started the Hound program, he's working to eliminate mutants. Why would SK want mutants hunted down and eliminated, since he needs a psionic mutant to possess (Karma, etc.) in order to escape from the astral plane?

Normal humans have no access to the astral plane. But for every mutant psi on Earth, that's another escape valve for SK to creep through and make it back to the material world.

More mutants: more avenues for escape. Less mutants: less avenues for escape. No mutants = no psis = SK is trapped on the psychic plane for good.

SK wanting to hunt down and eliminate mutants has him cutting off his nose to spite his face. He should want a world full of mutants, so that he has more escape routes from the astral plane, and more useful puppets for possession. (Except for Xavier, other mutants are almost absolutely no threat to the Shadow King, even psionic mutants as powerful as Selene and Emma Frost.)

Also, why does there have to be an evil mutant force behind the Hound program? Why can't it just be due to humans seeking to oppress, control, and eliminate mutants? I thought X-Men was about mutants living in a world that fears and hates them? But now, instead, it's really about an evil psychic force that's controlling humans to oppress mutants, not humans' own moral and societal decisions. If so, I find it diminishes the theme of the book.

There comes a time when you've got to consider a work of art as finished. After a painting is complete, an artist might mistakenly keep adding "just one more finishing touch" after another. If he continues on in this vein, the work is worse than it would have been had he known when to stop.

I find Claremont does this quite a bit. The SK is fine as a villain, fearful and prejudicial humans are fine as villains. But if CC is combining the two, well, it diminishes the humans' moral choice and makes the conflicts being played out that much simpler, that much more manichean, that much less rich.

Peace,
Syzygy

Novaya Havoc

05-26-2006, 07:24 AM

Also, why does there have to be an evil mutant force behind the Hound program? Why can't it just be due to humans seeking to oppress, control, and eliminate mutants? I thought X-Men was about mutants living in a world that fears and hates them? But now, instead, it's really about an evil psychic force that's controlling humans to oppress mutants, not humans' own moral and societal decisions. If so, I find it diminishes the theme of the book.

There comes a time when you've got to consider a work of art as finished. After a painting is complete, an artist might mistakenly keep adding "just one more finishing touch" after another. If he continues on in this vein, the work is worse than it would have been had he known when to stop.

A big, giant WORD to you, sir.

Arilou

05-26-2006, 08:38 AM

Normal humans have no access to the astral plane.

True, but one doesen't need to be a mutant to have access. (Case in point: Dr. Strange. Though the Shadow King would have about as much chance possessing the good Doctor as a rasperry of surviving in a supernova....) I agree with your general point though.

DDM

05-26-2006, 09:20 AM

If SK started the Hound program, he's working to eliminate mutants. Why would SK want mutants hunted down and eliminated, since he needs a psionic mutant to possess (Karma, etc.) in order to escape from the astral plane?

Normal humans have no access to the astral plane. But for every mutant psi on Earth, that's another escape valve for SK to creep through and make it back to the material world.

More mutants: more avenues for escape. Less mutants: less avenues for escape. No mutants = no psis = SK is trapped on the psychic plane for good.

SK wanting to hunt down and eliminate mutants has him cutting off his nose to spite his face. He should want a world full of mutants, so that he has more escape routes from the astral plane, and more useful puppets for possession. (Except for Xavier, other mutants are almost absolutely no threat to the Shadow King, even psionic mutants as powerful as Selene and Emma Frost.)

Also, why does there have to be an evil mutant force behind the Hound program? Why can't it just be due to humans seeking to oppress, control, and eliminate mutants? I thought X-Men was about mutants living in a world that fears and hates them? But now, instead, it's really about an evil psychic force that's controlling humans to oppress mutants, not humans' own moral and societal decisions. If so, I find it diminishes the theme of the book.

There comes a time when you've got to consider a work of art as finished. After a painting is complete, an artist might mistakenly keep adding "just one more finishing touch" after another. If he continues on in this vein, the work is worse than it would have been had he known when to stop.

I find Claremont does this quite a bit. The SK is fine as a villain, fearful and prejudicial humans are fine as villains. But if CC is combining the two, well, it diminishes the humans' moral choice and makes the conflicts being played out that much simpler, that much more manichean, that much less rich.

Peace,
Syzygy

The Shadow King's goal is complete control of everything. He has no true allies because he views them as nothing more than pawns. The Shadow King created Hounds from normal humans in Uncanny X-Men #264-266 as a result of reading Rachel Summers' mind in the past, during World War II, as chronicled in X-Men: True Friends #1-3. The Shadow King's psionic powers grow when he feeds on human negative emotions such as hate, envy, & lust. In Rachel's world, the Shadow King is largely responsible for the mutant hatred because he wanted more concentrated hate to feed his powers. This was hinted at in Excalibur #21-22 in a flashback.

I'm not sure if Elias Bogan is a manifestation of the Shadow King, but I would not be surprised since Claremont has left enough hints they are one & the same person.

fishtaco

05-26-2006, 10:22 AM

Arilou

05-26-2006, 10:59 AM

He rules the Astral Plane

Bollocks.
He might be a big boy in that plane, but its ruler? I don't think so. Not with the kind of mystic beings that have been encountered there running around.... He might be a big boy on Earth, but in the vast cosmic scheme of things?

DDM

05-26-2006, 11:02 AM

Bollocks.
He might be a big boy in that plane, but its ruler? I don't think so. Not with the kind of mystic beings that have been encountered there running around.... He might be a big boy on Earth, but in the vast cosmic scheme of things?

Yes, Xavier kept the Shadow King in check so his influence would not spread passed the astral plane. However, after Xavier was severely beaten, slowly dying, & after Xavier was healed, but he was far from home in the Shi'ar Galaxy. This gave the Shadow King time to expand his powers within the astral plane & eventually exploit Lorna Dane's ability to absorb negative emotions to gain a foothold in the real world (with Legion's help).

Arilou

05-26-2006, 11:33 AM

Yes, Xavier kept the Shadow King in check so his influence would not spread passed the astral plane. However, after Xavier was severely beaten, slowly dying, & after Xavier was healed, but he was far from home in the Shi'ar Galaxy. This gave the Shadow King time to expand his powers within the astral plane & eventually exploit Lorna Dane's ability to absorb negative emotions to gain a foothold in the real world (with Legion's help).

I'm still calling bollocks. You'd think Dr. Strange would have noticed if that was the case.

DDM

05-26-2006, 12:45 PM

I'm still calling bollocks. You'd think Dr. Strange would have noticed if that was the case.

Doctor Strange would not notice because Strange protects all of the Earth 616 reality--not just the Earth itself.

Novaya Havoc

05-26-2006, 12:45 PM

Arilou

05-26-2006, 01:17 PM

Doctor Strange would not notice because Strange protects all of the Earth 616 reality--not just the Earth itself.

My point is that he practically spends more time on the Astral Plane than in his physical body. If someone claimed to rule it, he'd certainly take notice. (The Astral Plane of course doesen't just encompass earth)

DDM

05-26-2006, 01:47 PM

My point is that he practically spends more time on the Astral Plane than in his physical body. If someone claimed to rule it, he'd certainly take notice. (The Astral Plane of course doesen't just encompass earth)

But Strange is not a telepath. He uses telepathy through his mystic powers. Without his mystic abilities & trinkets, Strange is a normal human. The Shadow King is a vastly powerful mutant telepath.

Arilou

05-26-2006, 01:57 PM

But Strange is not a telepath. He uses telepathy through his mystic powers. Without his mystic abilities & trinkets, Strange is a normal human. The Shadow King is a vastly powerful mutant telepath.

So? He's still routinely moving about the Astral plane. It's like the frickin' highway of the mystic realm by the Vishanti!

zonzorp

05-26-2006, 02:20 PM

Jim Starlin, Moondragon's creator, had non-telepath Dr Strange defeat Moondragon in a psi-duel, through his superior willpower.
For what that's worth.

Arilou

05-26-2006, 02:48 PM

Jim Starlin, Moondragon's creator, had non-telepath Dr Strange defeat Moondragon in a psi-duel, through his superior willpower.
For what that's worth.

Exactamundo. Strange p0wnz. Simple as that.

xmanson

05-26-2006, 03:14 PM

Meh issue.

Hate the coloring.

DDM

05-26-2006, 03:18 PM

Exactamundo. Strange p0wnz. Simple as that.

Moondragon is not a mutant either; she is a person who has fulfilled her human potential for psionic powers. The Shadow King's telepathy is vastly more powerful in that he literally rewrites his victims' personalities from the ground up when he subverts them to his will.

Arilou

05-26-2006, 03:34 PM

Moondragon is not a mutant either; she is a person who has fulfilled her human potential for psionic powers. The Shadow King's telepathy is vastly more powerful in that he literally rewrites his victims' personalities from the ground up when he subverts them to his will.

Moondragon mind-controlled an entire planet.

Now, she's a good girl (well, at least not a BAD girl) so there's a reason for her not doing that very often. What's the Shadow King's excuse?

Syzygy

05-26-2006, 04:40 PM

To escape from the astral plane? What?

The Shadow King, as DDM pointed out, wants to gain control of everything. Everything. That includes the Phoenix Force. The Shadow King wants to ignite a war between humans and mutants (and from there, you can see why the Shadow King is the X-Men's ultimate nemesis, not Magneto). Hounds are slaves to him that serve that purpose.

He doesn't need any psionic mutant to escape from the bleedin' Astral Plane. He rules the Astral Plane (Uncanny X-Men #273). He goes where he pleases. He is everywhere (in your nightmares, negative thoughts, temptations. You can kinda see where Morrison got Sublime from, if you catch my drift). What? Those two characters are pawns of the Shadow King (despite them not knowing it). Some might even say that Xavier himself is a pawn of the Shadow King. He sure as blazes is in New Excalibur.

I believe it's been stated several times that the Shadow King is trapped in the astral plane. In order for him to make it to Earth he needs a physical vessel. These have been shown to be psionic mutants, like Karma, but also Polaris, Legion, and Psylocke. If he can possess, or otherwise utilize a psi as a focus, he can stay in the physical realm.

He also possessed a dead body once, but that didn't work out too well. He may have been using Polaris as an "anchor" at that time, too.

Whenever SK escapes from the astral plane, it's because some psi lets him in. Karma, Polaris, and later, almost Psylocke. It's pretty clear, whatever inconsistencies there may be (it is a comic book, after all) that possession of a psionic mutant is always a paramount goal for him.

As for Dr. Strange vs the Shadow King, well...when it comes to strange you're talking about a guy who has beaten Shuma Gorath and other vastly powerful non-human entities. The Shadow King, I think, would be just one more evil spirit to him.

And I see no similarity between Sublime and the Shadow King. Sublime seems more similar to John Byrne's "That Which Survives" than the Shadow King. This is the first time anybody's mentioned such a parallel, I don't see it at all.

DDM

05-26-2006, 06:55 PM

I believe it's been stated several times that the Shadow King is trapped in the astral plane. In order for him to make it to Earth he needs a physical vessel. These have been shown to be psionic mutants, like Karma, but also Polaris, Legion, and Psylocke. If he can possess, or otherwise utilize a psi as a focus, he can stay in the physical realm.

Nope, Psylocke trapped the Shadow King's essence within the astral plane in X-Men #77-78 (second series). Before, the Shadow King consumed minds of his victims then possessed their bodies for his own use as shown from Uncanny X-Men #253-278.

In The New Mutants #6, the Shadow King turned Karma's mutant powers on herself & took over her body to eventually form the Gladiators. Xavier is convinced Karma is not dead, but he does not allow the New Mutants in on his suspicions that it is the Shadow King. By the time the kids confront the Shadow King, Xavier is too ill to do anything about it considering he was not involved throughout The New Mutants #29-34.

Since Empath had hired Magma & Sunspot to be kidnapped to become Gladiators in The New Mutants #26-28, the Shadow King had to have made his presence known behind the scenes.

Syzygy

05-26-2006, 07:26 PM

Nope, Psylocke trapped the Shadow King's essence within the astral plane in X-Men #77-78 (second series). Before, the Shadow King consumed minds of his victims then possessed their bodies for his own use as shown from Uncanny X-Men #253-278.

In The New Mutants #6, the Shadow King turned Karma's mutant powers on herself & took over her body to eventually form the Gladiators. Xavier is convinced Karma is not dead, but he does not allow the New Mutants in on his suspicions that it is the Shadow King. By the time the kids confront the Shadow King, Xavier is too ill to do anything about it considering he was not involved throughout The New Mutants #29-34.

Since Empath had hired Magma & Sunspot to be kidnapped to become Gladiators in The New Mutants #26-28, the Shadow King had to have made his presence known behind the scenes.

If you're claiming SK has unhindered access to the material world, I think you're wrong. The only time we see him is when he's using some sort of mutant as a psionic vessel.

First time Amahl Farouk (SK) appears, he's a fat human telepath. Xavier kills him, and he doesn't reappear on Earth until...he possesses a psionic mutant, Karma.

Later, he's beaten again, and we don't see him until...Polaris, transformed into some kind os psionic nexus for dark emotions appearantly becomes his "anchor" on the physical plane. Using her he can possess a dead human, and later Legion.

Again, in a storyline so awful I could barely make sense of it, Psylocke nearly becomes the vessel by which he once again becomes a power in the physical realm. But she somehow traps him there by refusing to use her telepathic powers...or some such. I remember this as a hideously bad story arc, and painful to read. (Possibly, this is where the retcon of making Amahl Farouk into some sort of evil demigod takes place.) There's also stuff going on with some witch woman, apparently a low-level psi who is his thrall. Or something. (Maybe I'll take another look at this one, if I can find some Pepto-Bismol.)

So, whatever is going on with the Shadow King, the X-Men seem to only encounter him when he's utilizing, possessing, or attempting to possess a mutant psi. Having a psionic mutant to inhabit or serve as a nexus to enter the physical world is the only way he can interact with the material world.

For example, as I recall, when Polaris, his "nexus", was disrupted, he was once again banished for a time. If that wasn't the case, the battle wouldn't have been over, but rather, SK would have just possessed someone else and immediately renewed his attacks. But the X-Men weren't on continual SK-alert after they beat him. Why? Because they know, once again, he's trapped in the "netherworld" of the astral plane.

On my reading of all these stories, he doesn't have free access to the material world, but can only escape the astral plane by using another psionic mutant.

Peace,
Syzygy

Syzygy

05-27-2006, 03:13 AM

I'm not sure if Elias Bogan is a manifestation of the Shadow King, but I would not be surprised since Claremont has left enough hints they are one & the same person.

Wait a minute...you're suggesting that SK and EB are one and the same?

I seem to recall that EB's modus operadi is to possess a mutant psi and use him/her to operate, EB appearantly having no material body of his own. First Rachel, then Emma Frost, and now Sage, if you believe that's what happened.

I also vaguely recall some stuff Sage said about how EB is a predator upon mutants, and maybe even heard her specifically mentioning that he requires telepaths for possession.

This certainly seems like the SK, who appears to float about, isolated, in the astral plane until some unwitting psi sticks her head up and then--snarf--she's toast.

But, DDM, you seem to think the SK has unrestricted access to the material plane without a telepathic host or psionic anchor ("nexus"). If they're the same, they've got the same limitation. Some requirement for a psionic mutant host in order to interact (or fully interact) on the material plane.

I hope the two don't turn out to be the same, myself. That would make for another horrible retcon that just complicates the character's history still further. Still, by my understanding, they've got the same modus operandi.

Yes, Xavier kept the Shadow King in check so his influence would not spread passed the astral plane. However, after Xavier was severely beaten, slowly dying, & after Xavier was healed, but he was far from home in the Shi'ar Galaxy. This gave the Shadow King time to expand his powers within the astral plane & eventually exploit Lorna Dane's ability to absorb negative emotions to gain a foothold in the real world (with Legion's help).

"...exploit Lorna Dane's ability to absorb negative emotions to gain a foothold in the real world (with Legion's help)." Right. This is exactly what I've been saying. He needs psionic mutant to "gain a foothold in the real world...." So why are you disagreeing with me on this point...and also, apparently, yourself?

Peace,
Syzygy

Syzygy

05-27-2006, 03:27 AM

Ugh. Shadow King is like, the lamest "super villain" ever. Ever. Ever ever ever. He is so not interesting to read about. And these interpretations of him as supra-puppet master that controls everything only makes him all the more boring.

I liked SK best in his first incarnation, the corpulent sensualist known as Ahmal Farouk. This was a man who was born with telepathic powers as great as Xavier's, but apparently found that using them to get anything he desired--any woman, for example--was too great a temptation. He used his powers continually to satisfy his desires, and they led him into corruption. In other words, behind this character, we have a human being (albeit a mutant one) with a story.

Contrast this with Xavier. When Xavier's powers first manifested, he found himself telepathically sensing his mother being beaten by his step-father. At the time, Xavier was unable to stop the beatings, but he was able to telepathically ease his mother's pain [can't recall this issue number--sorry].

So while Farouk used his power to gain access to every sensual pleasure, Xavier used his to feel others' pain, to empathize, and to heal.

Now, with these two characters, we've got a story.

Unfortunately, Claremont may have retconed this all away, in favor of something much less interesting.

The Shadow King, as DDM pointed out, wants to gain control of everything. Everything. That includes the Phoenix Force. The Shadow King wants to ignite a war between humans and mutants (and from there, you can see why the Shadow King is the X-Men's ultimate nemesis, not Magneto). Hounds are slaves to him that serve that purpose.

He rules the Astral Plane (Uncanny X-Men #273). He goes where he pleases. He is everywhere (in your nightmares, negative thoughts, temptations....

In other words...he's Satan. He's a disembodied force for pure evil, akin to Shuma Gorath, Cthon, Dormammu, or Mephisto.

And that, Nova, is why you think he's a lame, uninteresting villain. Because there's nothing interesting about a non-human entity that's the pure embodiment of evil. How much personality does Cthon have? Shuma Gorath? Absolutely none.

As for the SK being the X-Men's ultimate nemesis...if fishtaco is right about who SK is, then SK is much more akin to the kinds of entities Dr. Strange fights. Which makes Claremont's retcon a little suspect, since both the Ancient One and Strange would certainly have encountered SK if he was that sort of entity. They never have, to the best of my knowledge (unless this has already been retconned in).

On the other hand, if SK is actually Farouk, then he represents a polar opposite to Xavier as another powerful telepath who simply made a different choice than Xavier. One to grasp, one to heal. Now that would make him a kind of "ultimate" arch-enemy for Xavier and the X-Men, since they're examples of the consequences of different choices.

Still, I don't think we really know which version of SK is really the case. After all, more than one villain has claimed to be greater and more than he is. I seem to recall another corpulent villain in the early days of "X-Men Revolution" who made an extraordinarily pompous speech about being the very essence of corruption...right before Rogue killed him. As I recall, she was unimpressed, and said something like, "Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say. Heard it before. Not impressed."

The Hand uses this ploy too. They routinely say that "no one escapes the Hand," when we know Electra, Wolverine, and Psylocke have. But they continue to spout their gibberish as psy ops. If they can convince their minions that no one ever escapes them, their minions are that much less likely to even think seriously about rebelling.

SK may simply be engaging in "sales puffery" when he makes his exaggerated claims about being an immortal essence of evil. After all, if his foes believe that, well...how do you fight the devil itself? But if you know you're fighting a man, even a man with extraordinary powers, you recognize you're fighting something fallible. It make resistance conceivable.

Peace,
Syzygy

fishtaco

05-27-2006, 08:59 AM

Bollocks.
He might be a big boy in that plane, but its ruler? I don't think so. Not with the kind of mystic beings that have been encountered there running around.... He might be a big boy on Earth, but in the vast cosmic scheme of things?I dunno, he certainly must have a lot of control if he managed to attack Jean Grey only seconds after she entered the plane to search for Rogue, Dazzler, and Longshot.

The Shadow King apparently also controls the Dreamtime (Uncanny X-Men #253)

Stygzy: I don't see any evidence of ret-cons. The Shadow King is more than just a type of villain that Dr. Strange would fight. Getting to the corporeal plane isn't a big problem, either. He has his hooks in the Hellfire Club, the 3rd Reich, Jacob Reisz, Genosha, the Sentinel Programs, the Soviet Union, Viper & Silver Samurai, Rogue, The Reavers, Dreamtime, the Gladiators, the Muir Islanders (the Shadow King only used Polaris as an anchor to corrupt the Muir Islanders, not the whole world), Lian Shen, and more. The Astral Plane is where he hangs out, but he can manifest himself on Earth without a host. See Uncanny X-Men #278. He really is the essence of evil. He is a mutant, and he doesn't care. He doesn't care about Xavier's ideals, or Magneto's ideals (which ended up becoming one and the same), or any ideas, philosophies, or politics for that matter. The conflict between humans and mutants, and between Arabs and Jews, and between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and between various African tribes, and between Catholics and Protestants, and the concept of hatred and bigotry etc etc are no more than massive age old misfortunes that the Shadow King exploits and takes advantage of for dominance over reality.

DDM

05-27-2006, 09:23 AM

I dunno, he certainly must have a lot of control if he managed to attack Jean Grey only seconds after she entered the plane to search for Rogue, Dazzler, and Longshot.

The Shadow King apparently also controls the Dreamtime (Uncanny X-Men #253)

Stygzy: I don't see any evidence of ret-cons. The Shadow King is more than just a type of villain that Dr. Strange would fight. Getting to the corporeal plane isn't a big problem, either. He has his hooks in the Hellfire Club, the 3rd Reich, Jacob Reisz, Genosha, the Sentinel Programs, the Soviet Union, Viper & Silver Samurai, Rogue, The Reavers, Dreamtime, the Gladiators, the Muir Islanders (the Shadow King only used Polaris as an anchor to corrupt the Muir Islanders, not the whole world), Lian Shen, and more. The Astral Plane is where he hangs out, but he can manifest himself on Earth without a host. See Uncanny X-Men #278. He really is the essence of evil. He is a mutant, and he doesn't care. He doesn't care about Xavier's ideals, or Magneto's ideals (which ended up becoming one and the same), or any ideas, philosophies, or politics for that matter. The conflict between humans and mutants, and between Arabs and Jews, and between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and between various African tribes, and between Catholics and Protestants, and the concept of hatred and bigotry etc etc are no more than massive age old misfortunes that the Shadow King exploits and takes advantage of for dominance over reality.

Marvel Girl only possessed telekinesis when she entered the astral plane in Uncanny X-Men #273 for the Shadow King to corrupt Jean Grey to become his Shadow Queen. The Shadow King told her she needed telepathy to battle him, but was interrupted by Psylocke. However, the Shadow King taunted Betsy before she used her psychic knife on Marvel Girl. Psylocke knew she was telepathically outmatched by the Shadow King...

The Shadow King remarks that it has been a long time since he seen Jean Grey on the astral plane (a subtle hint to when Jean Grey was Phoenix).

Syzygy

05-28-2006, 02:45 AM

I don't see any evidence of ret-cons.

The retcon is that when AF/SK he was first introduced, he was a corpulent sensualist with immense mutant telepathic powers. With each appearance thereafter, Claremont kept remaking him into something more and more powerful...until he became the Mephisto-like entity he supposedly is now.

Here’s another retcon. In Uncanny #117, Xavier kills SK/AF. He states it definatively:

XAVIER: I touched his mind as he died. It was like a guided tour of hell.

So, originally, AF/SK was a mutant telepath. Xavier killed him in battle. No question. Claremont later revises things to bring him back. Hey! It’s a comic book! :D But as he keeps coming back, he is eventually metamorphed into an entirely different character. The problem is we’re to believe that, supposedly, he was never really Amahl Farouk, he was really the Satan-like Shadow King all along, and poor Farouk was just a host.

Now, supposedly, he’s “possibly a multiversal manifestation of the dark side of the collective human consciousness.”

It’s a problem because Amahl Farouk is (was) the more interestring character.

Here’s a note of trivia, that’s also an AF/SK retcon. As late as New Mutants #6, contrary to any notions of a grand plan, Claremont still has AF/SK in his "dead" file. In that issue, Xavier is psychically blasted, and Karma possessed, by a mutant that will LATER be retconned to AF/SK. As far as New Mutants #6, however, Claremont tells us what it is:

Scene: Viper kidnaps Danielle and blackmails the motocycle riders Team America to infiltrate an A.I.M. base and steal a strange, glowing crystal. Of course, the New Mutants disobey the Professor and interfere. After a Team America member grabs the crystal, there’s an explosion, Xavier is mind-blasted, and Karma is possessed.

XAVIER: A psychic assault, the likes of which I’ve never experienced.... There’s no sign of the entity anymore.

HONCO: Maybe it was destroyed in the explosion. What you felt was it’s death trauma.

XAVIER: I almost wish that were the case, Honcho. Unfortunately, I sensed not death, but birth. A new mutant, possessing unknown powers, unimaginable abilities. If only we knew what A.I.M. was working on!

So as of New Mutants #6, Claremont intends for Karma to be possessed by “a new mutant, possessing unknown powers, unimaginable abilities.” Doesn't sound like AF/SK, of whom Xavier is familiar and should certainly have identified. The reason Chuckie doesn't recognize the psychic signature involved as AF's is because, at the time, Claremont himself hasn't decided what the creature is. Only later does Claremont decide that, rather than invent this new, recently born mutant, he’ll resurrect Amahl Farouk.

So there’s a retcon for you. And all retcons aren’t bad. It’s just that once Claremont gets started with this stuff, he doesn’t know where to stop. He could have left AF dead, he didn’t. He could have left the ressurrected AF as a mutant in astral form who possesses others. He didn’t. He kept revising until we get the supposedly nigh-ominpresent force of pure evil that is the Shadow King.

There’s your retcon.

The Shadow King is more than just a type of villain that Dr. Strange would fight....He really is the essence of evil....for dominance over reality.

This is exactly the sort of being Dr. Strange does fight. Non-material entities of pure evil who possess and corrupt others, who seek to dominate reality. Which is why the concept that the SK is so powerful--while also having unrestricted access to Earth--is so ridiculous. Strange would certainly have encountered him and dealt with him.

the Shadow King only used Polaris as an anchor to corrupt the Muir Islanders, not the whole world.

No, it’s just the opposite. All those scenes of out-of-control hatred that SK is revealing in Uncanny #278 are due to the magnified influence he has thanks to Polaris, which SK refers to as “the psychic magnifying point between nthe physical and astral plane.” You’re proposing, fishtaco, that SK needs Polaris to control a handful of mutants, but he can extend his influence over the whole world without a psychic magnifier. That’s like saying Superman can hammer down Mt. Everest, but he can’t twist open a new jar of mayonnaise.

My reading of the entire Muir Isle Saga is that SK was using Polaris all along, and that without her, he phased back intpo the astral plane...where he was trapped before her new powers as a “psychic magnifier” let him through again. You’ll note that whole arc ends when Polaris’ powers are defused.

Getting to the corporeal plane isn't a big problem, either....The Astral Plane is where he hangs out, but he can manifest himself on Earth without a host. See Uncanny X-Men #278.

He appears to need either a psionic host, or a psychic link, bridging the two planes, or he’s trapped in the astral plane. For example, Uncanny #280:

SHADOW KING: They almost destroyed this shell, Polaris. Couldn’t have that, could we? Then they would be one step closer to severing my link to the physical plane. But they cannot truly defeat me until they disrupt my nexus, my psychic magnifier....

“...severing my link to the physical plane.”

IF SK had unrestricted access to the physical realm, he wouldn’t need Polaris as a “link to the physical plane”.

Again, why does he need the “link to the physical plane”? Because it anchors him to the physical plane, and without that, it’s back to the astral realm for him.

If he needs a “link” to the physical plane--and he does, as this issue tells us--then getting there alone is certainly a problem.

As for Uncanny #278, everything he does there is with the benefit of his “psychic magnifier”, Polaris. That’s why the arc--and the threat of him--ends when the link is severed.

He has his hooks in the Hellfire Club, the 3rd Reich, Jacob Reisz, Genosha, the Sentinel Programs, the Soviet Union, Viper & Silver Samurai, Rogue, The Reavers, Dreamtime, the Gladiators, the Muir Islanders....

At one time or another.

The conflict between humans and mutants, and between Arabs and Jews, and between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and between various African tribes, and between Catholics and Protestants, and the concept of hatred and bigotry etc etc are no more than massive age old misfortunes that the Shadow King exploits and takes advantage of for dominance over reality.

In other words, he’s Satan. And since Marvel already has Mephisto, Blackheart, Dormammu, Thog, Satannish, and numerous others, he really is redundant.

I liked him a lot better when he was just a fat crimelord with telepathic powers.

Peace,
Syzygy

Jack Flash

05-28-2006, 07:19 AM

I thought this issue was decent. I am still on the fence about continuing with it.

Things I liked:
Pete Wisdom's dilemma about blowing up the folks versus finding the better way.

Dazzy's taking on Tom herself. I like the "immortal" development, I wanna see where it goes.

Tom versus Cain, and Cain winning without using violence. Juggy is growing people! hooray for character growth.

Things I didn't like:
I thought Cain's helmet protected him from telepathy and posession. But Nocturne easily got in...what's the dealio?

Wisdom's power change. I noticed this before, but his "knives" should be connected to his fingers. but now he throws them and they don't come from his fingers. It's small and nitpicky, I know. But it was a cool visual man. I liked it better than the generic looking power effect he has now.

Sage's take down of evil Prof. that was way to frickin easy. This man was built up to be a major powerhouse and hes owned way too quickly.

ivesaidway2much

05-28-2006, 08:58 AM

A little off topic, but this has been bugging me for a while. Has it been revealed why Nocturne hasn't returned to her home reality?

Beast

05-28-2006, 09:36 AM

A little off topic, but this has been bugging me for a while. Has it been revealed why Nocturne hasn't returned to her home reality?
Supposedly, she's meant to serve some purpose in the 616 reality that was necessary at the time when the Exiles recruited Beak. It never has really been explained that well, and it's unclear if the bugs just shunted her off there because she was a liability or what. I'm sure when we get the eventual Exiles/New Excalibur crossover (when Claremont finally returns) it will be dealt with. :)

The Sword Is Drawn

05-29-2006, 04:46 AM

Supposedly, she's meant to serve some purpose in the 616 reality that was necessary at the time when the Exiles recruited Beak. It never has really been explained that well, and it's unclear if the bugs just shunted her off there because she was a liability or what. I'm sure when we get the eventual Exiles/New Excalibur crossover (when Claremont finally returns) it will be dealt with. :)

I hope so. We all know it going to happen sooner or later...

Daithi

05-29-2006, 05:33 AM

I hope so. We all know it going to happen sooner or later...

We just need some snarky comment from Brian when he meets them or learns more about the eXiles.

So you travel across time? Quite a caper wouldn't you say?

Beast

05-29-2006, 07:39 AM

We just need some snarky comment from Brian when he meets them or learns more about the eXiles.

So you travel across time? Quite a caper wouldn't you say?
Sounds more like something Pete Wisdom would say. ;) :D

david r

05-29-2006, 07:48 AM

The Shadow King apparently also controls the Dreamtime (Uncanny X-Men #253)

I don't think that is true. In Chris Claremont's plans for the Uncanny 290s, the Shadow King was to kidnap Gateway. And through Gateway, the SK would have attempted access to Dreamtime. The consequences if he had been succesful, would be staggering.

If the SK already had Dreamtime, he could possess people in their sleep. Or easily manipulate them by influencing their dreams. He did not already have that power.

Daithi

05-29-2006, 09:21 AM

If the SK already had Dreamtime, he could possess people in their sleep. Or easily manipulate them by influencing their dreams. He did not already have that power.

No he didn't. I believe the XXM annual also had the Shadow King attempt to make Rogue his Shadow Queen and the control Dreamtime.

fishtaco

05-29-2006, 06:05 PM

delete post.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-29-2006, 07:10 PM

Sounds more like something Pete Wisdom would say. ;) :D

I would be pretty surprised if Claremont didn't do something along those lines...:D

God, that storyline did wear thin by the end:rolleyes: .

The Sword Is Drawn

05-29-2006, 07:20 PM

I think that trying to clasify the Shadow King as a daemon or other minion of hell is wrong. He's not previously been occult related, and I don't see why he should be.

He just an entity, an essence of pure dark evil, that exists like a spirit on the Astral Plane. But that is where he is trapped.

He is effectively a psionic parasite who has to sing his claws into the minds of a passing psyche wandering the astral plane. Once he has done this he can easily hop from mind to mind into another body in 'our' physical world, but he has to make that initial step onto a psi-talent's mind.

We all know that Betsy gave up her psychic abilities in order to cage the Shadow King, or that is to say it required her constant concetration of psi-ability to keep him there, which meant she could never risk using her talent again for fear he would find a weak spot and get out.

Of course nobody knows for certain what happened when Betsy died. It is possible the Shadow King genuinely died with her, but let's face it, more than likely he freed himself at that time and wandered the Astral Plane for a new mind to clig to. Maybe Bogan's, maybe somebody else's.

Only time will tell...

david r

05-29-2006, 07:53 PM

The Sword Is Drawn

05-29-2006, 08:42 PM

I'm a huge Claremont fan, going wayback. That being said, This Series is Boring Me To Tears!!

"New Excalibur" is the first mutant book Chris Claremont has ever written that I might drop. I find myself just skimming the issues. not really paying any attention. I think my core problem with it is you just know NOTHING is going to happen. Each issue, nothing is going to happen and no real characterization will take place. It just feels like everything is on autopilot here.

I may drop it once Claremont stops plotting. At this point, I really would rather they cancel this series and next year, Claremont launch something new. I just don't care about NEX and cannot see this book continuing beyond #24.

This book has had more teething troubles than any other X-Title in my living memory. Editorial changes after it's first arc began, rushes to cover those changes, and Claremont's unfortunate absence due to his health. The problem is that while I could have accepted your criticism a couple of months ago, I really don't feel that it's valid now.

It kind of annoys me that just as the book starts actually going places people start beating it down again.

I'm personally really enjoying it, and I'm know for a fact from talking with other Excalibur fabs that I'm not alone.

With the re-introduction of Black Air, upcoming guest appearances from Psylocke and The Black Knight, an ongoing back story concerning Captain Britain's seeming Exile from Otherworld, an alternative Captain Britain Corps, Dazzler's body not letting her die, and finally an answer as to what is going to happen to Chamber since his depowering, this book has a lot to offer.

It's continuity has been hampered by a guest artist and guest write so early on in its run, but this book has plenty to tell, and it seems crazy to me to berate it now as it finally begins to build momentum.

Syzygy

05-30-2006, 12:36 AM

I'm a huge Claremont fan, going wayback. That being said, This Series is Boring Me To Tears!!

"New Excalibur" is the first mutant book Chris Claremont has ever written that I might drop. I find myself just skimming the issues. not really paying any attention. I think my core problem with it is you just know NOTHING is going to happen. Each issue, nothing is going to happen and no real characterization will take place. It just feels like everything is on autopilot here.

I may drop it once Claremont stops plotting. At this point, I really would rather they cancel this series and next year, Claremont launch something new. I just don't care about NEX and cannot see this book continuing beyond #24.

I've written several letters to Marvel suggesting that they put Claremont on an entirely new, non-mutant related project. For example (these are just possibilities): The Inhumans, Tomb of Dracula, Shang-Chi: Master of Kung-Fu, The Defenders, Agents of SHIELD, or some other non-mutant related book.

My reasoning was that, in this way, he would be forced to abandon all the baggage of his thirty years on the X-books: unresolved plot threads, stale characterizations, and the whole ages-old Claremontian mutant-verse. Abandoning these things would force him to work fresh, with an entirely clean slate, as he had to during the early years of the All New, All Diffent X-Men #98-150. He could create an entirely new atmosphere with an entirely new feel for otherwise new and/or forgotten characters.

Anyway, that's the theory. Sweep aside everything that's stale and old to revitalize all his creative juices with an entirely new project (new characters, no mutants, new plot threads, etc).

Even though I've been less than pleased with CC since his return with X-Men: Revolution, I'd happily pick up a CC non-mutant book, expecting something wonderous.

Got to go back to basics to get that old fire burning!

Peace,
Syzygy

Apocalypse Now Then!

05-30-2006, 07:00 AM

I thin you're all being well harsh here. There was nothing wrong with this issue. It was a good issue. I enjoyed it and think this book is finally 'going places' as others have already mentioned.

I also think it's wrong to slag off the book when its writer isn't even well enough to be working on it just now.

And once again I should remind you all that Marvel themselves clasify New Excalibur as a Marvel Universe title. Yes it has mutants on board, but that's why it has the whole Captain Britain mythology, that's why it has The Black Knight guesting shortly, that's why it's dealing with a non-American view of the Marvel Universe as a whole.

david r

05-30-2006, 07:03 PM

I've written several letters to Marvel suggesting that they put Claremont on an entirely new, non-mutant related project. For example (these are just possibilities): The Inhumans, Tomb of Dracula, Shang-Chi: Master of Kung-Fu, The Defenders, Agents of SHIELD, or some other non-mutant related book.

My reasoning was that, in this way, he would be forced to abandon all the baggage of his thirty years on the X-books: unresolved plot threads, stale characterizations, and the whole ages-old Claremontian mutant-verse. Abandoning these things would force him to work fresh, with an entirely clean slate, as he had to during the early years of the All New, All Diffent X-Men #98-150. He could create an entirely new atmosphere with an entirely new feel for otherwise new and/or forgotten characters.

Anyway, that's the theory. Sweep aside everything that's stale and old to revitalize all his creative juices with an entirely new project (new characters, no mutants, new plot threads, etc).

Even though I've been less than pleased with CC since his return with X-Men: Revolution, I'd happily pick up a CC non-mutant book, expecting something wonderous.

Got to go back to basics to get that old fire burning!

Peace,
Syzygy

Marvel already put Chris Claremont on a non-mutant book. It was Fantastic Four and you know what happened? Claremont tried to tell X-Men/Excalibur stories, only using the FF. Fans back then even called his run "Fantastic X". Longtime FF fans came out of the woodwork despising his run. X-fans liked it (for the most part.)

Claremont wants to write the X-Men. They ARE his babies. Whether newbies agree or not. I remember in the 80s, it was acknowledged within the comics industry that the X-Men were Claremont's characters. Not Morrison's, or Casey's, or Brubaker's. It's pretty obvious Claremont doesn't want to leave, because he keeps doing just X-Men work. (His attempt at independence with Sovereign Seven was a measureless disapointment.)

david r

05-30-2006, 07:11 PM

Though a Claremont-written revival of Star-Lord could be a sleeper hit.

tetragene

05-31-2006, 03:58 PM

And once again I should remind you all that Marvel themselves clasify New Excalibur as a Marvel Universe title. Yes it has mutants on board, but that's why it has the whole Captain Britain mythology, that's why it has The Black Knight guesting shortly, that's why it's dealing with a non-American view of the Marvel Universe as a whole.

when have they done this? On my subscription page (which comes with my Ultimate X-Men subscription). Marvel has NEX listed under X-Men, not Marvel Heroes (New Avengers, on the other hand, is listed under Marvel Heroes). Isn't NEX also grouped with the X-Men with the solicits?

I fail to see how having Capt Brit mythology qualifies it as a Marvel Universe title instead of X-universe. Capt Britain has rarely, if every been involved in any big/heavy Marvel Universe storylines or events that didn't involve X-teams (and even then he was rarely involved). Dealing with non-American views or territories (or having non-American guest stars) does not mean its any less an X-book. An X-Corps book set in France or Russia would STILL be an X-Men universe book.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-31-2006, 05:54 PM

when have they done this? On my subscription page (which comes with my Ultimate X-Men subscription). Marvel has NEX listed under X-Men, not Marvel Heroes (New Avengers, on the other hand, is listed under Marvel Heroes). Isn't NEX also grouped with the X-Men with the solicits?

I fail to see how having Capt Brit mythology qualifies it as a Marvel Universe title instead of X-universe. Capt Britain has rarely, if every been involved in any big/heavy Marvel Universe storylines or events that didn't involve X-teams (and even then he was rarely involved). Dealing with non-American views or territories (or having non-American guest stars) does not mean its any less an X-book. An X-Corps book set in France or Russia would STILL be an X-Men universe book.

He is actually right if you visit the Official Marvel Site:

Marvel Heroes Listing (http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?category=MARVEL%20HEROES&)

Scroll down the Marvel Heroes family and you'll find New Excalibur in there.

They're not listed in the X-Men Family any more. This book is now being pitched to deal with Marvel Universe stories, and how they effect the UK and Europe. They will continue to deal with the fallout of Decimation while other books move onto Civil War. Civil War is not relevent to New Excalibur, as it's dealing with a situation created by a US only law. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a few minor Heroes didn't seek political asylum in the UK at some point.

Granted the original Excalibur included three former X-Men but the vast majority of its stories never had a direct interaction with the X-Men, after its conception. The next 6 odd years dealt with UK based characters, Alternative realities and The Phoenix force on a universal scale, away from both the Shi'ar and the X-Men.

Scott Lobdell tried to tie them in in the 90s, but in crossovers effectively the was no Excalibur presence. The Phalanx Covenant issue did even really feature the characters from the Excalibur for more than a few panels.

Excalibur has always been a self-contained title. And yes, Captain Britain is primarily linked with the X-universe, by being Psylocke's twin. Although he was a solo character for a decade under Chris Claremont, Alan Moore, Jamie Delano and Alan Davis. But then Marvel decided they wanted to create a British based Team book - and so Excalibur was born.

Beast

05-31-2006, 06:17 PM

The major difference between New Excalibur, and the modern X-Men, is a pretty simple distinction. New Excalibur is not a mutants only club.
That and it's not as damn depressing and bleak as the other X-Books. It's lighthearted and fun, while still telling good stories. I miss the X-Men actually being fun, they haven't been that since the 90's.

Apocalypse Now Then!

05-31-2006, 06:24 PM

That and it's not as damn depressing and bleak as the other X-Books. It's lighthearted and fun, while still telling good stories. I miss the X-Men actually being fun, they haven't been that since the 90's.

Yes, I have to admit that I miss it too. The 90s kind of heralded in "The Mutant Issue" as being the central theme of the books, and within that context they became a lot more serious in tone.

New Excalibur is slightly lighter, and that is why a lot of people like it. When I first read #1 I actually thought "Thank You! Something different". I haven't felt like that a bout a book in far too long.

Ogre U AHole

05-31-2006, 08:16 PM

I'm liking this series alright I guess.

Another misleading Marvel cover that would have you believe Black Tom takes down Juggy. I know it's been debated elsewhere but still interesting to note.

I don't like Nocturne or her power. We already have an alternate future X-daughter in Rachel.

Is Dazzler an X-Ternal? Remember that concept from earlier X-Force issues? Cannonballs is one too. Basically mutants that are immortal unless decapitated or disintegrated or something. Also liked her seeming hand-to-hand prowess this ish. Is there a reason for that or is it all common sense street-fighting, like the backwards head-butt for instance.

I don't like Pete Wisdom either. Plain name, non-costume, and a total Marty-Stu. I'd be okay with him as a perifreal support character but I'm just not into him as a team member appearing every issue.

I like Captain Britain's new costume and look forward to him dealing with the loss of Meggan in future issues.

It's difficult to like Sage after Syzgy's very logical deconstruction of her retconned characterization, but somehow I do. I just wish she didn't have such a B.S. backstory. And I agree her handling of Evil Xavier was too simple for such a threat.

I like Juggernaut but when exactly did he become good? Seeing him confront Black Tom and win without using force was interesting but weird. I like him better as an act first, think later kinda guy. Like that great scene in the first few issues or so where he was causing collateral damage due to his rash behavior, size, and running amid traffic. Juggy's crush on Dazz is cute too and I hope it plays out for a good G.D. long time. Two things I'm not liking about comics right now are retcons and the obsessive (almost perversely pornagraphic) way fans and creators dwell on who's f___ing who this month.

The Sword Is Drawn

05-31-2006, 09:36 PM

I don't like Nocturne or her power. We already have an alternate future X-daughter in Rachel.

Did you ever read Nocturne in Exiles, Ogre? I think you'd have liked her there. She was much more of an independent, ass-kicking, character. Literally like fusing Nightcrawler and the Scarlet Witch together, which is afterall exactly what she is.

I'm a little disappointed that we're not seeing more of that side to her. She doesn't have the sass in the way that Claremont writes her. She's mellowed incredibly since coming to earth 616, period. But I would certainly like to see her more gritty side make a reappearance, soon.

Is Dazzler an X-Ternal? Remember that concept from earlier X-Force issues? Cannonballs is one too. Basically mutants that are immortal unless decapitated or disintegrated or something. Also liked her seeming hand-to-hand prowess this ish. Is there a reason for that or is it all common sense street-fighting, like the backwards head-butt for instance.

God I hope not.:D The whole X-Ternals thing is one 90s plot I really think is best forgotten. I'm hoping that Dazzler's coming back from the dead is in some way to do with her going through the seige perillous, back in Uncanny. Maybe it didn't make her right? Maybe it spliced her with the baby she miscarried?

We can only speculate. But The Seige was brought to the x-Men by Roma, and Roma and Excalibur go way back.

I don't like Pete Wisdom either. Plain name, non-costume, and a total Marty-Stu. I'd be okay with him as a perifreal support character but I'm just not into him as a team member appearing every issue.

'Marty-Stu'? I have no idea what that means. I'm really not entirely comfortable with where Wisdom is going right now. The chain-smoking, hard-drinking Cockney of Warren Ellis' Excalibur has been forced to quit smoking by Editorial rules and appars to have swapped Scotch Whiskey for Wine.

I want the old Pete back.

streator

06-01-2006, 12:34 AM

Ogre U AHole

06-01-2006, 12:52 AM

Did you ever read Nocturne in Exiles, Ogre? I think you'd have liked her there. She was much more of an independent, ass-kicking, character. Literally like fusing Nightcrawler and the Scarlet Witch together, which is afterall exactly what she is.

Nope, never read her in Exiles. I'm getting back into comics after a lay-off. I don't hate the character or anything, I'm just not finding anything that differentiates her substantially from other characters she's sort of derived from. And I'm kind of annoyed by her coming from an alternate reality for some reason. It's weird because some of my favorite characters are the alternate reality ones (Rachel, Bishop, and Shatterstar to name a few).

God I hope not.:D The whole X-Ternals thing is one 90s plot I really think is best forgotten. I'm hoping that Dazzler's coming back from the dead is in some way to do with her going through the seige perillous

Yeah, I was kind of ashamed I even remembered that hunk of junk. The Seige is an interesting possibility. Aside from it's ties to Excalibur through Roma, it's also a Claremont device.

'Marty-Stu'? I have no idea what that means.

It's a male "Mary-Sue" and I probably have it all wrong but it's a character that is basically a writer's pet that is made smarter, better-looking, nigh-defeatable, etc., etc. James Bond to me is a Marty-Stu, and Wisdom reminds me of him. Wolverine was the ultimate Marty-Stu of the late 80's/early 90's. Even though he was drawn as being somewhat unhandsome, all the ladies were on his jock, he was always unaffected by the severity of situations and super-cool, smoking a cigar, leaning against a wall with a hat pulled over his eyes and cracking nuggets of wisdom on people portrayed as uncool compared to him, he had an amazingly complicated backstory with super secret government projects and ninjas and all sorts of combat training and animal like hunting senses and skills, etc., etc. Wisdom's not quite there yet, but he comes across as a pet to me. And I'm probably wrong. ;)

Brian Cronin

06-01-2006, 01:11 AM

Sentinel K

06-01-2006, 03:32 AM

Sorry Brian. :o

I think that may have been me.

Arilou

06-01-2006, 04:16 AM

They ARE his babies

Then maybe it is time he let them grow up.
He may be their cradle, to paraphrase Tsiolkovsky, but one cannot forever stay in a cradle.

I don't like Nocturne or her power. We already have an alternate future X-daughter in Rachel.

Despite Claremont's HORRIBLE characterization of her, she's the only reason I keep reading the book :p

Nocturne is an amazing character, with tons of backstory and more kick-ass skills than probably any of the other team-members. (I wonder if they'll ever touch upon her piloting skills...) She's smart, capable, and should (if portrayed correctly) have a certain level of emotional toughness. Her experience after encounters with a wide variety of foes should put her at least close to the same level of experience as the SENIOR X-men.

RH_Duncan

06-01-2006, 04:30 AM

The Sword Is Drawn

06-01-2006, 06:18 AM

It's a male "Mary-Sue" and I probably have it all wrong but it's a character that is basically a writer's pet that is made smarter, better-looking, nigh-defeatable, etc., etc. James Bond to me is a Marty-Stu, and Wisdom reminds me of him. Wolverine was the ultimate Marty-Stu of the late 80's/early 90's. Even though he was drawn as being somewhat unhandsome, all the ladies were on his jock, he was always unaffected by the severity of situations and super-cool, smoking a cigar, leaning against a wall with a hat pulled over his eyes and cracking nuggets of wisdom on people portrayed as uncool compared to him, he had an amazingly complicated backstory with super secret government projects and ninjas and all sorts of combat training and animal like hunting senses and skills, etc., etc. Wisdom's not quite there yet, but he comes across as a pet to me. And I'm probably wrong. ;)

Oh right. I follow you.

Wisdom was really Warren Ellis' pet, having created him and all. Although in all honesty he never really had over the top limitations, and was integral to the whole Black Air arc which he wrote.

Claremont seems to like him, but also seems to be forcing him to change into something isn't really.

And yes, the quitting smoking was to get around Joe Q's "No character in a Marvel book shall be seen to be smoking" policy. But in Excalibur's original run, and in X-Force Wisdom was infinitely more sarcastic, dry and standalone. I think that at times Claremont can paint him too light. But I'm willing to see how he developes him.

Oh, and sorry Brian. This did border on a slanging match this morning.:D

The Sword Is Drawn

06-01-2006, 06:21 AM

Ha, I did the same, but choose the opposite, I'll keep New Excalibur on my pull-list and dump XFI.

I'm bordering on doing the same. X-Factor just doesn't interest me. Both books deal with Decimation still, but whereas I can see New Excalibur moving onto other places and themes, for me, I feel X-Factor is becoming a bit redundant.

There is no mutant town really, anymore. No 'District X'. And to try and keep the concept alive to justify this book's life does not work for me, anymore.

Apocalypse Now Then!

06-01-2006, 06:23 AM

Argue the points, not the posters.

Points, not posters.

Points, not posters.

And by all means do NOT begin talking about other posters in the thread with each other. If you want to talk about points raised by other posters, go ahead.

But none of this "Isn't Poster X lame?" "Oh yes, I do agree. Poster X is lame" nonsense.

If you wish to disagree with Poster X's points, do so.

-Brian

Sorry, Brian.

I would argue that I felt provoked, but am definitely big enough to admit that I shouldn't have allowed my self to rise to it.

I'll try not to let it happen again.

Apocalypse Now Then!

06-01-2006, 06:25 AM

this issue is my last of new excalibur.
i gave this title and x-factor both an equal shot and i'm sticking with x-factor.
i can't really say that i've enjoyed much of anything from nex 1-7 but if it works for other people then i have nothing else to say really.

Each to there own.

I personally just don't get the need for X-Factor. It doesn't do it for me, and I'd by far prefer to see Rhane back in Excalibur, and Siryn with her.

I dropped X-Factor after the Siryn kidnap issue. I can't afford both, and I've ust lost interest.

Apocalypse Now Then!

06-01-2006, 06:27 AM

There is no mutant town really, anymore. No 'District X'. And to try and keep the concept alive to justify this book's life does not work for me, anymore.

That's exactly why I've dropped it. Doesn't seem relevent anymore, and it feels like X-Factor is just be written to keep it alive. I didn't particularly like District X either.

The Sword Is Drawn

06-01-2006, 06:31 AM

Each to there own.

I personally just don't get the need for X-Factor. It doesn't do it for me, and I'd by far prefer to see Rhane back in Excalibur, and Siryn with her.

I dropped X-Factor after the Siryn kidnap issue. I can't afford both, and I've ust lost interest.

All Brits together, huh?:D

Well apart from the fact that Siryn is Irish, of course...

I love Rhane in Excalibur, but with Moira now quite a while dead I think she has to find her own path. Wouldn't ever say no to her rejoining the cast, but I don't think we'll see that anytime soon...

Novaya Havoc

06-01-2006, 08:43 AM

He is actually right if you visit the Official Marvel Site:

Marvel Heroes Listing (http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?category=MARVEL%20HEROES&)

Scroll down the Marvel Heroes family and you'll find New Excalibur in there.

They're not listed in the X-Men Family any more. This book is now being pitched to deal with Marvel Universe stories, and how they effect the UK and Europe. They will continue to deal with the fallout of Decimation while other books move onto Civil War. Civil War is not relevent to New Excalibur, as it's dealing with a situation created by a US only law. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a few minor Heroes didn't seek political asylum in the UK at some point.

No, it's not.

First villain: Dark X-Men.

The point (which you often repeat): Dealing with M-DAY -- a crossover that affects mutants.

Star characters: Former X-Men Villain. Daughter of Nightcrawler and Scarlet Witch: X-Characters. Former boyfriend of Kitty Pryde: X-Man. Former X-Men Villain retconnned X-Men spy. Former solo adventurer and X-Man. And... British Guy.

Theories about "Mastermind" behind the villains: Shadow King. X-Men villain.
Most recent villain: Black Tom. X-Men villain.
Soon-to-be Guest Stars: Psylocke, former X-Man. Chamber, former member of Next Generation X-Men.

This book has yet to deal with anything that takes it beyond the scope of the X-Men Universe. Dazzler was more of a Marvel Heroes book than this, and even then most readers would classify her as in the "X-Family."

The villains, the heroes, the plots, the powers, and the apparent "directive" (dealing with M-Day and protecting the world in the absence of... mutants) even is overtly mutant and X-Related.

Granted the original Excalibur included three former X-Men but the vast majority of its stories never had a direct interaction with the X-Men, after its conception. The next 6 odd years dealt with UK based characters, Alternative realities and The Phoenix force on a universal scale, away from both the Shi'ar and the X-Men.

Funny, since under X-Family you see the listings for original Excal trades. And since this is supposed to be a continuation of the more classic Excalibur, which seems more likely?

Excalibur has always been a self-contained title. And yes, Captain Britain is primarily linked with the X-universe, by being Psylocke's twin. Although he was a solo character for a decade under Chris Claremont, Alan Moore, Jamie Delano and Alan Davis. But then Marvel decided they wanted to create a British based Team book - and so Excalibur was born.

And Dazzler was a solo heroine who dealt with her own issues and MU adventures outside of the X-Universe for the majority of her published history, and for over 6 years. And then she was tossed into the X-World. No one is really chomping at the bit to call her a MU Character and not an XU character, yes?

I know that it's nice to think that his book is somehow grander in scope or more central to the entire comicdom than it really is. New Excalibur is quite firmly an X-Book. There's nothing that takes it outside of the XU scope wildly enough to classify it as anything but.

-B

The Sword Is Drawn

06-01-2006, 11:27 AM

Anyone can see your arguament Novaya, but at the end of the day Excalibur always was on the periphery of the X-Titles and New Excalibur is no different. If Marvel are now choosing to list and market it as a Marvel Universe it wont come as much of a surprise.

The first arc of NEx was designed to link the title to House of M and the old Excalibur, but since then the entire tone of the book has been pressed towards it's own self-enclosed context and Marvel Universe characters and stories.

It's one of those things. Some people would say eXiles is an X-Title, also, but can you honestly say it exclusively is anymore? Spider-man 2099? Power Princess? It became more than just an X-Title the second they started dealing with Marvel Universe themes and stories, as opposed to just X-Men related ones.

I use Exiles as an example, because its tone and exploration of alternate realities is very much similar to what the original Excalibur was during the original Claremont/Davis run. In fact Excalibur had more guest appearances from the Avengers during that period than it did X-men. Iron Man, the Black Panther, War Machine, the whole of Avengers West Coast and Dr Doom.

The only person to change that direction was Scot Lobdell. He tried his best to sever all links to the no mutant parts of the title, culling characters and removing Captain Britain.

New Excalibur's cast is also a matter of personal opinion.

I would by no means call Captain Britain an X-Character. For one he isn't a mutant. For two he has existed as monarch of Otherworld, purely in a Marvel Universe context for the better part of a decade, only guesting in The Avengers. For 3 he was a Marvel Universe only character before Excalibur. The only link to the X-Universe at all is his sister being an X-Man. And soon she wont even be that.

The Juggernaut may well be a former X-Men foe, but he too is not a mutant. His power source is magical. He's actually had a shed load more development outside the X-Men than in, featuring in a good many Marvel Universe titles, because of being powered by the bands of Cyttorak. There are giant facets to the character not even slightly related to the X-Men.

Sage, granted, is an X-Men only character. That I wont debate. That's plain fact. And yes, Widom is a mutant ho has only ever appeared in X-titles. But as a former member of Excalibur he has a pretty obvious reason to be here.

As for Dazzler, yes she is remembered best as devuting in the X-Men, and being an X-Man. But she has had solo series, and certainly her most recent appearances and mentions in the Marvel Universe have come from outside of the X-Books.

And Nocturne is the alternative daughter of a famous X-Man and famous Avenger, who came from a title which teeters on the brink of becoming a fully fledged Marvel Universe title.

The bottom line is that New Excalibur, as with Excalibur before it, will always be a totle which does cross between the two extremes with great frequency. It's not strictly one or the other.

But it does work.

And an awful lot of people think it's a great title.

You may not.

But just because you don't does not meant that other people are wrong.

Each to their own.

Arilou

06-01-2006, 01:26 PM

Main problem?

That there is a divide in the first place.

ALL X-TITLES SHOULD ALSO BE MARVEL UNIVERSE TITLES.

For say, Spider-man I can always draw the connection to the rest of the MU, for some reason, no one has been keeping as tight a leash on the X-titles.

The X-men are as much part of the MU as Spider-man. And it should show a bit more.

Novaya Havoc

06-01-2006, 02:24 PM

I would by no means call Captain Britain an X-Character. For one he isn't a mutant. For two he has existed as monarch of Otherworld, purely in a Marvel Universe context for the better part of a decade, only guesting in The Avengers. For 3 he was a Marvel Universe only character before Excalibur. The only link to the X-Universe at all is his sister being an X-Man. And soon she wont even be that.

Again. Dazzler was an MU character for the most substantial part of her character history, and for the majority of her published continuity. She is still an X-Character by every consideration today.

Brian is in the X-Men Handbooks, the X-Men Encylopedia, and on most all X-Men web sites. I understand he had a history separate from X-Men, but today he is a peripheral, X-Men character.

The Juggernaut may well be a former X-Men foe, but he too is not a mutant. His power source is magical. He's actually had a shed load more development outside the X-Men than in, featuring in a good many Marvel Universe titles, because of being powered by the bands of Cyttorak. There are giant facets to the character not even slightly related to the X-Men.

Juggernaut is not a mutant, but he is -- no doubt about it -- an X-Men character. This one isn't even up for debate. Juggernaut has always been a major X-Men villain and related to the X-Franchise, even if he crossed over at times. That's like saying Angel is loosely an X-Character because he was in the Champions, the Defenders, and had the developments with Candy Southern and Dazzler outside of X-Men.

As for Dazzler, yes she is remembered best as devuting in the X-Men, and being an X-Man. But she has had solo series, and certainly her most recent appearances and mentions in the Marvel Universe have come from outside of the X-Books.

But she is still regarded as an X-Men character. And Nocturne is used because she's related to Nightcrawler. Chris Claremont said as much. They are both firmly embedded in the X-Mythos.

I know you want to think otherwise, but this is an X-Title, with X-Properties, and X-Focus, with what have pretty much developed into X-Characters within the X-Universe. There is pretty much nothing non-X about it, except a few historical, continuity references, but that isn't enough to sever the other, much stronger ties it has to the world of X-Men.

Sentinel K

06-01-2006, 03:18 PM

Who cares? This arguement seems so pointless.

Arilou

06-01-2006, 03:43 PM

Who cares? This arguement seems so pointless.

We are:
A) Comic book geeks.
B) On an internet message board.

Both of these types are known for endlessly discussing pointless topics. Combine them, and you could have a 50,000 page discussion on the size of Batman's belt.

Novaya Havoc

06-01-2006, 04:07 PM

Who cares? This arguement seems so pointless.

And in the grand scheme of things, all discussions about comic books are. Point?

Zombienorthstar

06-01-2006, 04:57 PM

We are:
A) Comic book geeks.
B) On an internet message board.

Both of these types are known for endlessly discussing pointless topics. Combine them, and you could have a 50,000 page discussion on the size of Batman's belt.

If we were at the end of a movie id be doing the slow clap for you right about....NOW.

Sentinel K

06-01-2006, 06:04 PM

And in the grand scheme of things, all discussions about comic books are. Point?

My point?

Your discussing wether a book is classified as an X-Title or a MU title.

It really doesn't matter. It's a Marvel comic.

And not all discussions are pointless, if you get something out of them. A new aprecciation for a scene or character for example. If something is learned then its never pointless.

Argueing over what to classify a book as is ludicrus.

Just enjoy the book. Or not.

Ah screw it, I don't have a point. :o

Apocalypse Now Then!

06-01-2006, 06:04 PM

Yup our ability to over debate the pointless knows no bounds.

Syzygy

06-02-2006, 03:48 AM

That's exactly why I've dropped it. Doesn't seem relevent anymore, and it feels like X-Factor is just be written to keep it alive. I didn't particularly like District X either.

I'm also losing interest in X-Factor. Peter David is a great writer, I know, but Multiple Man is still so boring to me. I really don't care for any of his cast members.

I loved District X though. I felt it was a really original, really great mutant book.

No more were mutants living in the shadows. They moved up to the ghetto!

Hey, it WAS progress, and it was a new approach.

Now we're back to "Let's put the muties in a big Sentinel-run concentration camp."

So: why didn't you like District X?

--SYZ

Stagier

06-02-2006, 04:58 AM

Babylon23

06-02-2006, 05:53 AM

does anyone have an idea what is up with sage and her tear tatoos? they were forgotten by alan davis, continued to bachalo and now ryan.

and it looked like she cried them out this time, or leaked out of her eyes, i dunno.

has claremont or anyone else said anything about this yet?

I'm assuming that the evil Xavier has taken control of Sage, and that's why her tatoos returned.

However, your "leaked out of her eyes" comment suggest a link to Elias Bogan.

Brian M.

06-02-2006, 06:29 AM

I think New Excalibur is a DC book.

Stagier

06-02-2006, 06:31 AM

I think New Excalibur is a DC book.

i dont get it

The Sword Is Drawn

06-08-2006, 05:23 PM

i dont get it

There's nothing to get...

The Sword Is Drawn

06-08-2006, 05:33 PM

Back to the issue at hand...

Litterally.

I first read this issue at speed in the early hours of the morning during a week off work.

Having re-read it tonight I can honestly say that I thought it was one of the better issues so far.

This story could have benefitted, maybe, from an extra issue to the arc, breaking uo some of the action for character developmemt - letting them find out more about their team-mates in the heat of battle, but it was a pretty sound issue, and leads to plenty more signs of things to come.

Also, is it just me or am I the only one to read more into the final line, than just the death of Dark Charles Xavier?

Sage may be good, but at the end of the day she is no psi-talent. And if it's a alternate of the Shadow king in there, Sage will not have beaten him.

Black Air nick off with the other Dark X-Men but Scicluna tells them to leave Xavier. Shew knows he's dead. But much as though Sage may claim "He's History" I think it's more than likely only in body.

I really do expect Sage to start displaying elements of the Shadow King in her mind in coming issues, be it her Tatoos, or otherwise.

In fact maybe this was what Black Air wanted all along? The Shadow King hops into Sage's body and uses her ability to top hop into every data stream that she has access to. Now Black Air have access to exactly the same information as Excalibur, as Sage looks at it. They're once again, one step ahead of the game...