Wonder Woman FAQ

[Fenix]

BY Bored at 3:00AM


WHO IS WONDER WOMAN?

Wonder Woman is the world’s most famous super-heroine. Along with Superman & Batman, she is one the longest running characters in comic book history.

Throughout most of her many incarnations, Wonder Woman has been Princess Diana of Paradise Island, daughter of Queen Hippolyta of the Amazons from Greek myth. Sent to Man’s World as an Ambassador of Peace, Wonder Woman uses her extraordinary abilities to battle the forces of War.

WHEN DID SHE FIRST APPEAR?

Wonder Woman was created by Moulton Marston in 1941 to give young girls a super-heroic icon of their own. The impact of Marston’s creation surpassed even his expectations, becoming an icon to girls, feminists, lesibans and bondage enthusiasts alike.

In no time, Wonder Woman joined the ranks of both the Justice Society of America in 1942 and the Justice League of America in 1960. Her comic remained in continuous publication even after the demise of the superhero genre during the early fifties. However, it should be noted that DC would lose their exclusive rights to the character if they ever stopped publishing a Wonder Woman comic. As a result, Wonder Woman has managed to survive even the most dismal sales and creative slumps.

WHY DID SHE LOOK SO DIFFERENT DURING THE SIXTIES?

With sales in the toilet, DC decided to try something completely different with their flagship super-heroine. And by completely different, I mean completely the same as a more popular female icon at that time—Emma Peel of the hip British spy show, The Avengers (no relation to the Marvel super-team). As written by Robert Kanigher, Princess Diana suddenly lost her Amazon powers, quit the Justice League and became Diana Prince, a kung-fu fighting chick in mod mini-skirts and form-fitting jumpsuits.

This radical new direction only lasted a few years and was back in her traditional star-spangled panties and red bustier once again. And so she remained until the mid-eighties when Wonder Woman was killed off as part of the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

HOLD UP, WHAT’S THE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS?

The Crisis of Infinite Earths was a giant cross-over DC put together in 1985 to celebrate their 50th Anniversary. The story combined all their various alternate realities into one world and re-launched their major characters.

During the story, the original incarnation of Wonder Woman, who joined the Justice Society, and the modern version of Wonder Woman from the Justice League, were shown the door. The elder Wonder Woman went off to live happily ever after with her husband Steve Trevor in Olympus while the modern Wonder Woman was killed off. The memory of both was subsequently erased from existence within the DCU. As a result, their past memberships in both the JSA and the JLA were wiped out.

SO WHO’S THE CURRENT WONDER WOMAN?

Writer/Artist George Perez was given the go-ahead to revamp Wonder Woman and was largely successful. Ditching the romance with Steve Trevor, the Invisible Jet and the Diana Prince secret identity, Perez played up the mythological aspects of the character and less on straight super-heroics. Subsequent creative teams have had varying success in following Perez’s initial five year run.

WHAT CAN WONDER WOMAN DO?

She’s stronger than Hercules, as fast as Hermes and as wise as Athena. Also, she’s been trained since birth by the Amazons, who are amongst the greatest warriors in the DCU. Her skin is tough, but not bullet-proof, as evidenced by her need to deflect bullets with her unbreakable metal bracelets. Initially, Wonder Woman would lose all her powers if her bracelets were ever bound together. However, this element has since disappeared due to DC Editorial’s discomfort with Marston’s none-too-subtle fascination with bondage imagery.

That said, Wonder Woman still wields her trademark golden lasso, which forces anyone she ties up to tell the truth. Although she gained the ability to fly during the late seventies, Diana often gets around is her Invisible Jet. Perez ditched the jet during his revamp, but John Byrne subsequently brought it back as a shape-changing alien artifact during the late nineties.

WHO ARE THE OTHER AMAZONS?

QUEEN HIPPOLYTA was Wonder Woman’s mother and, thanks to Byrne again, took the original Wonder Woman’s place within the Justice Society of America by travelling back in time to World War 2. Hippolyta was recently killed off during the Our World At War crossover. In fact, in turns out that she was the only casualty of that particular crossover.

DONNA TROY was Wonder Girl, Wonder Woman’s kid sister. Originally, Wonder Girl was actually Diana as a child, but this was changed so the character could join the Teen Titans during the sixties. When Wonder Woman’s existence was wiped out during the Crisis, Donna Troy’s history became extremely muddled until John Byrne sorted things out. Donna was killed off recently in the Graduation Day crossover. Nobody is particularly happy about it.

The current WONDER GIRL is Cassie Sandsmark. She gained her powers by challenging Zeus and, like her predecessor, joined forces with other teen sidekicks in Young Justice and, most recently, the revamped Teen Titans.

ARTEMIS was introduced as a “bad girl” Amazon from a tribe that lived apart from Paradise Island. During the nineties, Artemis briefly assumed the role of Wonder Woman, compete with a star-spangled thong and red silicone breast implants. Since then, she’s died, come back to life and now lives on Paradise Island.

IS WONDER WOMAN IMMORTAL?

It all depends on who you ask. The Amazons from Paradise Island are most definitely immortal, most of whom are over three thousand years old. However, Diana may or may not be immortal since some creators believe that Diana abandoned her immortality once she left Paradise Island.

The original Wonder Woman from the forties did age, albeit very slowly, and had grey hairs before she was shuffled off to limbo during the Crisis. The Lynda Carter Wonder Woman from TV was most definitely an immortal, not aging a day over the span of 40 years.

WHAT HAPPENED TO STEVE TREVOR?

Prior to the Perez revamp, Steve Trevor was always Wonder Woman’s primary love interest. In fact, Trevor was the fighter pilot who crash landed on Paradise Island, prompting Diana’s journey to Man’s World. However, believing that Wonder Woman is “above” romance, Perez decided to make Trevor a much older man, thereby nixing any possibility of him ever becoming Diana’s boyfriend. Steve Trevor has since married Eta Candy, Wonder Woman’s former comedic sidekick from the forties.

Subsequent creative teams have attempted to hook Wonder Woman up with various suitors, none of which have stuck. Wonder Woman is often paired with Superman, but only in stories taking place in a possible future. Superman and Wonder Woman did share a kiss once during the eighties, but that was the extent of their romantic relationship. Batman and Wonder Woman have also dabbled in romance, but that didn't really work out either.

COME ON, ISN’T WONDER WOMAN REALLY A LESBIAN ANYWAY?

Yes, some fans do believe this, but DC isn’t likely to address that theory anytime soon. Like Batman & Robin’s relationship, DC will probably never allow Wonder Woman’s sexuality to be explored in that way. However, it should be noted that several of The Amazons are indeed lesbians, although not all of them are.

HAS WONDER WOMAN APPEARED OUTSIDE OF COMICS?

A cartoon Wonder Woman appeared in all the incarnations of the Super Friends (which was essentially the Justice League) during the seventies and eighties. Wonder Woman also appears regularly in the current Justice League cartoon

During the late seventies, a live-action TV show was produced that starred Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman. The show ran only two seasons, the first taking place during World War 2, the second taking place in the present. It is fondly remembered by pop culture junkies thanks to its ridiculously cheezy theme song.

There have been rumors of a live-action Wonder Woman movie for years, but nothing has ever come of it. Joel Silver, producer of The Matrix & Lethal Weapon mega-franchises, is currently in charge of the production.

There is also tons of Wonder Woman merchandise out there, including T-Shirts, action figures, posters and lunch boxes.

WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THE BOOKS RIGHT NOW?

Writer Greg Rucka has just come on board the book and finally drummed up interest in the character again. Whether or not Rucka will succeed in making Wonder Woman a best-seller again is up to the fans to decide.

[Fenix]

by HartyPotter

Thanks bored . I was wondering if I should ask about Wonder Woman sometime here in a thread, but didn't want to seem like too much of a newbie to comics. I picked up the Rucka issue and loved it.


by Artemisboy
Good summery. There were only two things that I disagree with:

1) Diana is as strong as Herakles: Her strength derives from the earth, or Gaea, itself so she is actually quite stronger than Herakles ever was.

2) Artemis wore 6-inch heels: Artemis never has. Actually, all of the 'outfits' Artemis has worn comprised of flat heeled shoes or boots. I don't think I've ever seen her in heels before, and I'm one of her biggest fans. You're right about the thong though. Outside of the bodysuit she once wore, Artemis' outfits tend to fall on the skimpyside.

- Peter

by HartyPotter

WEll, I wouldn't underestimate Hercules' power, considering I think he once substituted for Atlas in holding up the world for a while in mythology. I may be wrong. And also.... is there any place I can find these pictures of Artemis in the skimpy stuff? Even just telling me what issues she was featured in would help.

by Artemisboy
The only time I remember Herakles (the Greek version of the character which interacts with Diana) holding up anything was the island of Themyscira. He was turned to a HUGE stone statue of himself that supported the island for 1,000 years. After his punishment ended, he was shown to have held up the island in his mortal form for a short period during the War of the Gods storyline. So he is strong enough to hold up an island, but as the magic that blessed Diana as a child to access the strength of Gaea, I think her strength levels may far overpass Herakles'.

Regarding Artemis and her skimpy clothing, the skimpiest outfit I remember her wearing was in a Wonder Woman annual during the JLApe crossover. She pretty much only had belt-like bands all over her body. The very first costume she was shown in too (standard Bana-Mighdallian Amazon clothing) was pretty skimpy.

- Peter

[Fenix]

by Tynne Fanel.

saying that someone no one had ever heard of before was Hippolyta's arch enemy, and was forcing Donna (revealed as a magically created mirror-image twin of Diana) to live multiple lives that ended in tragedy is the PERFECT DEFINITION of "sorted things out", 'Dox. How dare you mock Byrne's revamp skills!

Next you're gonna make fun of the "Chapter One" costume he designed for Electro...only the best costume revamp ever made!

by theexpandingmaN

Would Amazons really be considered lesbians without even having the choice to couple with a male?

Thanks for the info, 3. You left out the Cathy Lee Crosby WW. I think her nemesis was Ricardo Montalban.

Also for those who don't know, WW's creator created the polygraph.

Who's idea was it to continuously feature WW in a series or lose her, the original creator's? What was behind all that exactly?

I'm just like Potter in the fact that I don't know too much about the character other than Perez' run. His #8 was a favorite of mine. So glad I picked up #195, too. Looking forward to an excellent run by Rucka and company.

by DDM

athy Lee Crosby made an awful Wonder Woman.

She was written more like a female Captain America.

However, the script was afwul regardless. How or why did DC agree to this Wonder Woman movie???


by davidS
There is a lot more going on between wonder woman and Superman than a simple kiss!

First their each other's best friends. Second in WW's comic a couple of years ago there was a story line called trinity. WW 140 and 141. {not the current 3 part story by that same titale, and which i recomend by the way} Diana was attacked by the ancient titains by giving her just what she wanted. bu using her own shape shipping ship they trapped her in a fantasy world of her own making by giving her just what she wanted and that was superman. When Superman and Batman tried to help her they to were trapped in her fantasy. In this fantasy where she was more than cotent Clark and diana met fell in love and married. She was perfectly happy, Clark seemed happy but always something was missing {LOis] Bruce finaly was the one that realized the whole thing was a fantasy world and wasn't real.

Than there was that action comic were they were trapped in vahalla for a thousand years, Their last night together she was sitting on his bed, he was wounded and they all most....... but it was Clark who put an end to what Diana and more likely than not what he wanted by saying, "I'm sorry Diana, I know it's silly and even if I know she is a thousand years and a world away it's still always Lois!"

At the end of our worlds at war when Superman was controled by Circe. QWhen Superman broke down with the guilt of all those who died in that war. It was Diana's shoulder he cried on.

[Fenix]

byBored at 3:00AM

Still, a kiss is as far as its gotten in current continuity. No super-groping or bumping uglies yet.

by Artemisboy

I have to agree. Diana may have liked him in the beginning, but Diana is no home wrecker. She would never come between Lois and Clark. This was proven during the Day In The Life issue. Diana even went to the extent of wanting Lois to take the Lasso of Truth to prove this fact. IMO the whole Diana and Clark angle is just fan-boy plots that don't really fit in with current continuity.

- Peter

[Fenix]

by DDM

True. But Wonder Woman & Superman have proven to be platonic as far back as Action #600 (written & penciled by John Byrne, inked by George Perez). In later issues of Wonder Woman--#18 (?)--Diana emphasizes that her friendship with Clark Kent is just a platonic one. The media scrutinized Diana when she was seen a lot with Superman (this is long before she joined the Justice League & had only met Superman once before in Legends).


byWonderBoi

I have a small correction. Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman TV show lasted four seasons. The first was on ABC and set in World War II. The second through fourth were on CBS and moved to the seventies, with more sci fi oriented plots.

Besides that, Wonder Woman appeared as a guest star in one episode of "The Brady Kids" a cartoon made by Filmation. She later appeared in one episode of the Ruby/Spears "Superman" cartoon. This was her first post-Crisis cartoon appearance and the first time she was shown to be able to fly in a cartoon.

And there was a live action pilot made, but never aired for a "Wonder Woman" sitcom in the sixties, made by the people responsible for the Adam West "Batman" series. In it, Wonder Woman was a homely spinster who lived with her nagging mother. When she looked in the mirror, she saw a lovely goddess... when in reality she was homely and awkward. She is shown to be able to fly in the pilot and no doubt hilarity would have ensued.

And finally, in the 90s, Wonder Woman came very close to headlining her own animated series (and accompaning doll line), "Wonder Woman and the Star Riders" which costarred DC heroines Ice and Dolphin as well as new made-up ethnic heroines. The series concept went through many changes. Throughout most of the pitches, Wonder Woman and her fellow heroines were teen age girls who transformed via magic crystals into super heroines in order to protect the environment. With the exception of WW, the other heroines had elemental powers. (Ice: er ice; Dolphin: water; Starlily: plants and Solara: Fire.) They rode into battle on winged unicorns. Their nemesis was Purrsia a spoiled feline villainess who had her own flying lion pet. (Why they didn't just use Catwoman or Cheetah I don't know.) Rumor had it that Supergirl was planned as a second year addition to the team. Needless to say the DC characters they DID use bore little resemblance to their comic book counterparts. (Ice's costume is mostly pink!) Bits of animation were completed, including a short animated film shown at the annual Toy Fair in New York. A promotional comic book was also created and packed in boxes of cereal. Pictures of the dolls were even published in both toy and comic book magzines. But for whatever reason, these toys were never produced (btw, they were created by Mattel and some of the items planned were reworked from the Princess of Power line of the 80s), and neither was the cartoon.

[Fenix]

by angentman

Another correction, Bored: Marston created Wonder Woman as a positive, female role model for boys, not girls. Marston wanted to introduce the concept of strong women to boys, and hoped that the comic book would provide a forum for this point.

by Bored at 3:00AM

I'd heard it the other way around. That Marston was trying to create a superheroine for girls to look up to---maybe he was doing it for both genders.

Anybody else heard this?

WonderBoi

This is from Wonder Woman: The Complete History by Les Daniels:
"The precise effect Marston had in mind can only be a subject for speculation, but today's feminists may have somewhat misinterpreted the situation by suggesting that Wonder Woman was intended as a role model who would encourage self-confidence in girls. Certainly that aspect was important to Marston, but Mayer felt that Marston 'was writing a feminist book but not for women. He was dealing with a male audience.' It's an open secret... that Wonder Woman's readers have always been predominantly male (estimates run as high as 90 percent)... If he really did succeed in altering the social climate, it might have been by exposing millions of boys (who would become men by the 1960s) to the ideals of feminism. After all, it's not much of a surprise that women might want to assert themselves, but it's quite a different matter when many of their supposed oppressors agree to go along with the idea."

My interpretation is, that comics were primarily read by boys. Marston was aware of this and set about trying to convey his views to his audience. If he were trying to reach girls, he probably would have pursued a different medium.

[Fenix]

by Bored at 3:00AM

Thanks for the info Wonderboi.

I was under the impression that plenty of girls still read comics back in the forties. Although they probably weren't reading superhero comics.


by davidS

Marstan was a bit weird

He lived in his house with his wife and kids and his girfriend and their kids. his secretary slash mistress always wore metal bracxellets which she never removed!

by Artemisboy

I don't think the first two one-hour episodes can be considered a season. Officially there were only three seasons. One year on ABC and two years on CBS.

- Peter


by WonderBoi

Technically, there were three. There was the Pilot which aired in November, then the show was brought in like a mid-season replacement in April. Two more episodes aired, Wonder Woman Meets The Baroness Paula Von Gunter and Fausta The Nazi Wonder Woman. So, yeah, whether that's consisdered a real season is up to individual judgement. Of course, after that there was a full season on ABC, then two on CBS. I was wrong when I said there were three on CBS.

[Fenix]

by tangentman

Didn't the CBS run also end w/two Wonder Woman specials, one about the "boy who knew Wonder Woman's secret id," involving aliens; and one about a disfigured man "haunting" a theme park?

by spoon_jenkins

You may want to use Wonder Woman' creator's full name (William Moulton Marston) in the FAQ, since calling him simply "Moulton Marston" makes it sound like Moulton is his first name. He wrote WW under the pen name Charles Moulton.

by Artemisboy

TangentMan, yeah, those were two-part episodes during the last season. The very last episode though showed that Diana was moving from the Washington D.C. branch of the IADC to the Los Angeles branch. And as a child character was introduced into that episode, the myth about "once a child is written into the script, the show is typically cancelled shortly there after" remained true.

- Peter

Here's a new question that seems to be on Wonder Woman fan's minds every so often:

Why do Wonder Woman writers feel a need to kill off massive amounts of Amazons?

George Perez did it when he had Amazons protect the deadly Doom's Doorway and again when the Amazons went into Man's World during the War of the Gods crossover. William Messner-Loebs killed off Amazons when their island was invaded by rogue Amazons and then sent off to a demonic realm. John Byrne FOR NO REASON WHAT-SO-EVER had Darkseid come in and kill off half of the population. Phil Jimenez killed Amazons with the second Amazon civil war. Now it seems that Greg Rucka has the same goal in his sights.

Just how many Amazons will there be left? 2? Maybe 3?

- Peter

[Fenix]

by Cardinal!

People always label the regular Amazon massacre as some underlying "mysogynist agenda," but I wonder how different that really is from the regular massacres that happen around the DCU.

In Gotham City: On top of the regular crime and killing sprees led by Joker and the rest of the Arkham clan, that city has had to deal with deadly/violent plagues, earthquakes, isolation and abandonment by the government, and God knows what else.

Any story featuring a big battle happening in the Superman books where Superman gets in a big fight with a robot in the middle of Metropolis doesn't ever seem to go into much detail as far as civilian casualties go, you know that city probably suffers quite a bit, too.

On top of these, what else is there? Since there's probably three dozen heroes living in New York, that city definitely gets a lot of grief. I remember one or two Australian cities being left completely destroyed back in the Invasion cross-over. Coast City got blew up a few years later. A few years after that, Kansas gets blown up. Keystone City had its foundations shaken, namely by Kobra during "Terminal Velocity."

It just seems a lot worse when Themyscira goes through the same stuff because its population happens to be entirely female, and because unlike the mainstream DCU, where cities like Metropolis and Gotham have a seemingly endless suppbyly of civilians to make for cannon fodder, the Amazons of PI also happen to be an "endangered species."

by tangentman

One question to also consider is this, "do new Superman or Batman writers begin their runs by visiting massacres and disasters on Metropolis or Gotham?" Does the new writer "make a mark" on those books by killing off major supporting characters? Sure, Metropolis suffered back in the 90s, but we still have Perry, Lois, Jimmy, Ma & Pa Kent. Despite Gotham suffering that earthquake, we still have the Commish, Barbara, Alfred, Tim, Dick, others.

Can't say the for Wonder Woman's supporting cast. Hundreds of Amazons killed in stories cited by Artemisboy. Hippolyta? Killed for shock value in a horrible DC crossover. Trevor Barnes? Killed by Simonson after Jiminez' run ended. Donna Troy killed off by a writer as a stunt for setting up new series. How would Superman fans feel if Ma Kent, Lana Lang, and Superboy were killed off in the space of 2 years, and left dead? Would Batman fans not feel cheated or abused by the writers if Alfred, Vicki Vale, and Robin were murdered as promotional stunts?

[Fenix]

by Artemisboy

Also, cities like Gotham and Metropolis are urban jungles in which villian after villian comes along. On Themyscira you have a society that has lived in peace (outside of guarding Doom's Doorway) for over three thousand years. It's been pretty much cut off from society, yet the massacres somehow always reach them none-the-less. And even though they are now social with outside peoples visiting the island, with FIRM groundings that no violent action can physically take place on Themyscira, new writers come along and try to kill off Amazons anyway or remove those safeguards. It's just a sad and ever typical story piece in the Wonder Woman mythos.

- Peter

by Cardinal!


The thing with Troia was definitely inexcusable, I won't argue that. While I don't mind character deaths, no matter how violent (which is why I'm not holding Hippolyta's death against anyone, considering it was vividly portrayed, well-written [IMO] and the ramifications are still existent), that was just horrible. Even Trevor Barnes' death was excellently written - and this isn't just because I didn't care for the character. In just those six issues, Simonson made you care more about the character than Jimenez had managed to do and gave him a "beautiful" farewell.

Troia's death, though, was as obvious a cheap sales stunt as there ever was one (along with Lilith's), considering the writer of Grad. Day had obviously not even gone to the trouble of reading any story involving any of the characters prior to him or else he at least would've known that Superboy, Wonder Girl, or Tempest could've easily beaten the tar out of that robot or that Lilith could've teleported away before the robot snapped her neck.

by tangentman

Hell, Lilith has precognitive powers! Why didn't those powers warn her of the menace posed by that damn Indigo or the Superman android? Lemme give a belated "Right On" to Starfire telling off Superman in TT! What a stupid gimmick.


by JKCarrier

quote:Originally posted by Patient Boy
Also, was there any given reason as to why Diana was suddenly able to fly in the 70s/80s/whenever?



She started "gliding on wind currents" sometime in the '60s, I think. After the CRISIS reboot, she had full flight -- no reason given, it was just another one of the powers given to her by the gods along with her strength, speed, beauty, and so forth.

I assume it was done to put her on a more equal footing with Superman. Or maybe Perez just didn't like the invisible plane.

by tangentman

quote:Originally posted by Patient Boy
Umm... Robin has already been murdered as part of a promotional stunt.

Also, was there any given reason as to why Diana was suddenly able to fly in the 70s/80s/whenever?



Yes, Jason Todd, the most unpopular Robin, by fans' demand. The only other death of importance was Batwoman, and that's possibly retconned thanks to Crisis. Murdering Donna Troy is comparable with killing off Dick Grayson, and killing Hippolyta equals knocking off Alfred or Commissioner Gordon. Diana's lost 2 pivotal supporting cast members, in less than 2 years! Now the mess with Paradise Island, and Rucka's "inspired" demolishing of it For all the praise about Rucka, in many respects, this is a bad time for a Wonder Woman fan.

by ouiyahtsiouiyah

Almost every character in the DCU has a problem with where they live all the time.

Bats had to deal with a deadly contagion, twice, an earthquake, No Mans Land, and then bein' a fugitive within his own city. I'm sure stuff consecutivley happens in Metropolis as well, (even tho I don't read Superman)

[Fenix]

Ok, That´s all I´ve got about WW´s FAQ. I hope you like them...I will try to post the GL FAQ´s and Fash later.

[Core]

Thanks again, Fenix.

Can we get a Sticky on these threads like on the old board?

[Cei-U!]

I have a quick correction.

The Emma Peel-style Wonder Woman of the late 60s was the work of Denny O'Neil and Mike Sekowsky under editor Jack Miller. They replaced Robert Kanigher, who'd been writing the strip since Dr. Marston's death and editing the book since '58. Kanigher took back over briefly after the bosses ordered Diana back into spandex but his retro approach failed to recapture the title's lost audience.

Cei-U!
I summon the detail!

[Fenix]

Thanks again, Fenix.

Can we get a Sticky on these threads like on the old board?
You´re welcome.

For a sticky you have to ask to Arune Singh (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/member.php?u=322) or Bored at 3:00AM (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/member.php?u=584).

I asked Bored to get sticky the GL´s FAQ and he got it, but he didn´t do the same with Flash or WW FAQ´s.
I don´t really know why...

[Craig M.D.]

How's about a list ("Who's Who" style) of Wonder Woman's villains? I know some of the names (Circe, Ares, Cheetah, Devastation, Dr. Psycho, Silver Swan) but I don't really know the history of any of these characters.

[artemisboy]

How's about a list ("Who's Who" style) of Wonder Woman's villains? I know some of the names (Circe, Ares, Cheetah, Devastation, Dr. Psycho, Silver Swan) but I don't really know the history of any of these characters.

Circe: An immortal Aegean witch. (Greek) She is the daughter of two Titans: Helios (a sun titan) and Perseis (the daughter of Okeanos). She was a follower of the Titan Hecate, who is the goddess of the moon and witchcraft. At one time she took on the soul of the now dead goddess and became much more powerful. She initially took to being an enemy of Diana as she beleived that should she (Circe) die, the soul of Hecate would transfer over to Diana. Many battles and annimosities later, their rivalry is much more conveluted. She fathered a child with the war god Ares named Lyta, who is now being looked after on Themyscira.

Ares: Greek god of war. He has merged with his Roman counterpart Mars and is now more powerful. He has seen that in modern times, the title of "god of war" could be more harmful than good as if he were to gain full reign under that title, he might not have any worshipers left as we are now in the nuclear age. Hence, he as recently taken to the title of "god of conflict".

Cheetah I: Archeologist Barbara Minerva became the were-cheetah goddess after an expedition into Africa. She supplicated herself to an African plant god and became his 'bride' of sorts in becoming the Cheetah. Still an archeologist, when Diana first came to Man's World, she coveted Wonder Woman's golden lasso. This started their first battle, and as with Circe, many conveluted battles later The Cheetah can either be a reluctant ally to Diana or a savage opponent. If she is presently alive or dead is not very clear. As the Cheetah II stole her title, Barbara dislikes Sebastian Bostelleros very much and will kill him at first sight.

Cheetah II: Sebastian Bostelleros, business tycoon. He stole the plant god from Barbara and made a deal with him so that the previously all female role of the Cheetah could now also include male inductees. He is also stole her position, Cheetah I is an enemy to Cheetah II.

Devestation: The older off-shoot to the Titan Gods, lead by Chronus, attempted to take over all religious parthenons. In doing so, they created an avatar warrior much like Diana. Her name is Deva. She has all of Wonder Woman's powers but with a darker twist. She can change her outwardly appearance to be a child or an adult.

Dr. Psycho: A telepathic psychotic.

Silver Swan: Originally a girl named Valerie with mutagenic vocal chords, the Silver Swan has become somewhat of a revolving door. Basically, it is a girl who has cybernetic wings and a high pitched voice. The present Silver Swan is Vanessa K., a close friend of Diana's. Circe and Cheetah II teamed together, along with the help of Dr. Psycho, to mentally alter Vanessa's perceptions of her relationship with Diana to make her unbalanced. Thus, they gave her a cybernetic throat attatchment and transformed her into the Silver Swan.

- Peter

[4PointOh]

Wonder Woman's body is a mystical creation made from the clay surrounding Themyscira. Through divine means, her disembodied soul was nurtured in and retrieved from the womb of the High Matriarch and sole progenitor of the Titans of Myth and the Olympian Gods, Gaea. Once the soul was placed into the body it immediately came to life and was blessed with metahuman abilities by six Olympian deities (WONDER WOMAN #1).

Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, and avatar of Gaea, divinely blessed Diana with an inborn strength whose source is Gaea herself. Like the source from which she draws it, Wonder Woman's strength is nearly limitless. She has been observed assisting in the movement of entire heavenly bodies, catching cavernous-sized asteroids, supporting the weight of bridges, hefting entire railroad trains, subway trains, ships and aircraft. (JLA #58, 75; JLA: A LEAGUE OF ONE; JLA/TITANS #1, 3; WONDER WOMAN #24,110, 144, 175).

It is said that Superman may be the only being stronger than she (ACTION COMICS #761; JLA #96; WONDER WOMAN #102,103).

While not invulnerable, her body is considerably denser than the average human being, providing her with the appropriate stamina and endurance necessary to perform such feats, as well as to survive unprotected in harsh and extreme environments like Hell, the Poles or outer space- although, a significant enough force covering a small enough surface area (such as bullets, missiles, lasers, etc) would be able to penetrate her skin (ARTEMIS: REQUIEM #1; JLA #4; UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED #1-3; WONDER WOMAN #124, 178, Secret Files #1).

As Gaea is a constantly renewing source, Diana, too, has a rapid healing ability. Through her divine link to the Earth, Diana has not only survived ground zero explosions, Zeus’s thunderbolts and punches from a hyper-powered Doomsday, but has recovered quickly and miraculously from those and similar injuries(GREEN LANTERN #73; JLA #96; JLA: OUR WORLDS AT WAR Special #1; TEEN TITANS #6; WONDER WOMAN # 7, 23, 110, 172, 194, Secret Files #3).

Aphrodite, the goddess of love and beauty, blessed Diana with great beauty and a loving heart, that she might be compassionate and fair in her quest for peace.

Pallas Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war, granted Diana great wisdom, intelligence and military prowess. It is from Athena’s gift that Diana exercises an incredible intellect that has allowed her to master over a dozen languages (including alien and animal languages), multiple complex crafts, sciences and philosophies, as well as over 3000 years of leadership, military strategy, and armed and unarmed combat. Diana is considered the greatest and most skilled fighter of her race (WONDER WOMAN #1, 5, 71, 170, 184, 195, 204).

Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals and the moon, graced Diana with the Eye of the Hunter and Unity with Beasts. The eye of the hunter ability gives Diana enhanced sight and hearing. While there is no conclusive evidence, it appears that Diana can see distances and hear sounds at least three times that of human beings. Unity with beasts allows her to not only communicate with all sorts of animal life, such as sharks, birds and dinosaurs, but her mere presence can bring even the most ferocious beasts to an absolute calm (WONDER WOMAN #9, 171, 184, 187, 188, 196).

Hestia, goddess of the hearth, granted Diana sisterhood with fire. This power makes Diana the physical embodiment of truth. It is almost impossible to lie to her. With this truth power, Diana can see through mirages, illusions and other forms of deception (such as shape shifting), and is immune to telepathic attacks (WONDER WOMAN #25, 26, 55, 183, 204).

Hermes, the messenger god of speed, granted Diana super-speed and the ability to fly. Through the simple act of concentration, Diana can mystically defy the laws of gravity and propel herself through the air to achieve flight. Diana most often travels at supersonic speeds (Mach 3), but has been clocked moving at “invisible” or hypersonic speed (Mach 7 or above) both in the air and on the ground. She has even outsped Hermes’s avatar, the roman god of speed Mercury. She is swift enough to deflect bullets, lasers and other projectiles with her impenetrable bracelets. While the omniscient force known as the Godwave is the progenitor of both the Olympian Gods and the Speed Force, it is doubtful that the Wonder Woman or the Olympian Gods draw their speed abilities from the Speed Force, but more likely, draw that ability from the Godwave itself (JLA #2, 33, WONDER WOMAN #51, 56, 109, 171, 196).

In extreme situations, through prayer and meditation, Diana can channel the endless power of the Godwave, making her, theoretically, the single most powerful being in creation. However, she can only perform this act for mere seconds, as holding on to the power any longer than that would drive her insane and threaten all of existence. And also through prayer and meditation, Diana has been known to morph herself into the Earth and travel within it to escape imprisonment, alter her appearance and personality and send her astral self to mystical planes (WONDER WOMAN #63, 120, 152, 177, 184, Special #1).

Abilities

Diana is an above Olympic-level athlete and acrobat who has been trained since infancy in the art of war. The “daughter” of more than 4000 warriors, favored of Athena and granddaughter of Ares, the god of war/conflict, Diana is a master of over 3000 years of armed and unarmed combat. She is a brilliant military strategist and her colleagues in the Justice League often look to her for advice on tactical strategy.

An unparalleled swordswoman and archer, she is nearly peerless with the battleaxe, lasso, quarterstaff, bo staff, dagger, spear, nunchuku, throwing star, sai, tonfa, kama, escrima stick, baton, boomerang and shield and she has mastered Iaido. Diana is an expert hand-to-hand combatant, having perfected innumerable forms unarmed combat including Shaolin, Wing Chun, Pa Kua, Hsing-i, and Tai Chi Kung Fu styles, Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu, Ninpo, Ninjutsu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Karate, Capoeira, Boxing, Wrestling, Kickboxing, and countless forms of combat lost to the modern world, but still practiced by the various tribes of Amazons. Through her interactions with her teammates and allies, Diana is also proficient in Apokiliptan, Asgardian, Atlantean, Daxamite, Kryptonian, Martian, Okaaran and Titanese forms of combat (ACTION COMICS #761; MISTER MIRACLE #6, WONDER WOMAN #0, 1, 4-6, 9-13, 24-26, 28-35, 54-63, 66-71, 90-100, 139-169, 171-187, 189-195, 200, Special #1).


Weapons/Paraphernalia*

Lariat of Truth: A lariat of tiny chain links, the Lariat of Truth (a.k.a. “Lasso of Truth,” “Magic Lasso” or “Lariat of Hestia”) is of limitless length and virtually indestructible. Neither god nor mortal can escape the lasso which, when being held by Diana, compels anyone bound by it to tell the truth. The lariat glows as if on fire and can apparently burn the flesh of those within its confines if those individuals are impure. Diana can apparently control the latter ability. Additionally, the lariat possesses anti-mystical abilities and can protect Diana and anyone within its scared circle from magical attacks.

Bracelets of the Aegis: Created from the hide of Amaltheia, the goat that wet-nursed Zeus, king of the Gods (whose hide eventually became Zeus’s and Athena’s shield), the indestructible Bracelets of the Aegis were forged from the fragments of Zeus’s shield. They allow Diana to deflect bullets, lasers, arrows, swords, energy blasts and other projectiles than would be able to penetrate her tough skin. When crossed, the bracelets emit an impenetrable, low-level force field around her.

Royal Tiara: Razor sharp, the tiara Diana wears can be thrown like a boomerang. The monster Scylla and god Deimos have had their heads severed by Diana’s use of the tiara as a throwing weapon.

Eagle Battle Armor: Diana’s ceremonial battle armor was forged specifically for her. Crafted by the Amazon artisan Pallas, this eagle-inspired armor allows for freedom of movement in close combat. The armor’s golden wings fold away when not in use, and enhance diving strikes when spread to their full span. The wings also provide additionally shielding from projectiles or blasts of energy.

Sword of Hephaestus: Diana’s sword, also forged by Hephaestus, is so sharp that it can cleave the electrons from an atom and even cut Superman!

Star Shield: Wonder Woman’s battle shield is molded from a remarkable ore once mined and smelted on Themyscira. This rare metal resists impacts and holds a keen edge. The shield demonstrated its considerable tensile strength when Diana used it to pierce the exo-armor of an Imperiex-Probe and to dissipate the devastating energies it would have used to destroy Earth.

Winged Sandals of Hermes: The sandals permit Diana to teleport from one place to the next and transverse dimensions. The sandals also grant anyone who wears them the ability to soar at tremendous speeds.

Gauntlets of Atlas: These bands increase, by a factor of ten, the strength and stamina of anyone who wears them.

Invisible Jet: Formerly a sentient being Diana called “Dome,” the Invisible Jet is now just a highly advanced vehicle Diana uses to travel with passengers and cargo. The Jet harnesses graviton particles- electrically neutral, gravity-defying quantum particles- for subsonic propulsion through air and space. If stranded in orbit, the Jet can reprocess Diana’s breath for up to two hours of breathable oxygen. Invisible to nearly all forms of detection, the Jet is capable of fashioning weapons out of its own substance. Although, doing so depletes the mass of its fuselage. It is not known whether or not the Jet has retained its ability to morph into other vehicles such as a motorcycle, submarine or chariot.

*(from WONDER WOMAN: Ultimate Guide to the Amazon Princess).

[Hatter]

A couple of questions...

Are Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl's Bracelets removable? I never see Diana without them...

Also, why was the previous Wonder Girl called both Donna Troy and Troia?

[Fenix]

I ´ve seen her without bracelets in a couple of issues. I think it was in Jimenez´s run around #189. But I don´t know for sure.

I guess they should be removable... You need a true WW expert to clear that up!!

[artemisboy]

A couple of questions...

Are Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl's Bracelets removable? I never see Diana without them...

Yeah, they're removable. The wearing of bracelets is just a tradition the Amazons have in rememberance of the enslavement they once were under when Heracles and his men took them prisoner thousands of years ago. When the Amazons first went into Man's World (around Wonder Woman #50) they all took them off as a sign to the world that they will no longer hold old grudges. As their handful of attempts of working with the outside world has each ended in hardship, it seems the Amazons (the Themyscirian ones anyway) have taken to wearing them again.

Also, why was the previous Wonder Girl called both Donna Troy and Troia?

Donna Troy is her real name and Troia was her second codename. She ditched the codename Wonder Girl once she regained her memories of living among the Titans of Myth. Kind of like Jean Grey ditching the codename Marvel Girl for Phoenix.

- Peter

[davids]

In sensational comics 1941 it was reveled that if wonder woman were to remove her bracellets she would lose control of her self. Not only would she become stronger but less in control of her own actions. she would go berzerk. I am not sure if this still goes for Wonder woman's curent incarnation. Side note Diana's daughter Eiko from project A-ko a 1986 anime movie wears black bracellets that cuts down on her powers and strenght and helps her control her emotionals. In one movie she tried to war a formal gown with ouyt her bracellets and in a fit of rage destroyed a space ship hotel! {And i don;t know why warner brothers didn;t sue them!]

[artemisboy]

The old "losing control without her bracelets" is old school and isn't in the current Post-Crisis mythos. Diana has taken them off a couple times and with no crazy outbursts.

- Peter

[Patient Boy]

In sensational comics 1941 it was reveled that if wonder woman were to remove her bracellets she would lose control of her self. Not only would she become stronger but less in control of her own actions. she would go berzerk.

This makes no sense (and yes I know it's just comics). Wasn't this back when WW still had a secret ID? How'd Diana Prince hide the fact that she was wearing big silver bracelets all the time that just happened to look like the ones Wonder Woman wore?

[Random Dude 22]

Why did Wonder Woman cut her hair pre-Rucka run?

Was it just because?

[artemisboy]

She was trying to disguise herself and thought a haircut might do it.

- Peter

[Random Dude 22]

Thanks,

Disguise herself for what?

[artemisboy]

An evil entity was stalking her by possessing living being's bodies and attacking her. While she was trying to find out who this being was, she had to make herself a disguise to throw off her persuer. Thus, she cut her hair.

- Peter

[Indigo Al]

Has the status and history of Baroness Paula von Gunther been established in the Post Crisis DCU?

[olympichero62]

Questions:

1.) Is wonder woman in love with batman?

2.) or is wonder woman in love with superman?

3.) Why does batman always try to fight her but always gets his a$$ whopped?

4.) Is she the best fighter in the DCU?

5.) Has anyone ever broken her lasso?

6.) Could a nuke take her out?

7.) In current post crisis continuity, what is her strongest feat?

[artemisboy]

Has the status and history of Baroness Paula von Gunther been established in the Post Crisis DCU?

Not really. John Byrne brought her back into continuity and had her stay on Themyscira among the Amazons. She has never been seen since.

Questions:
1.) Is wonder woman in love with batman?

There was some flirtation there, but I believe that possible relationship was settled in JLA in which both of them realized that it could never work out. I think that resolution is all whooie myself though. I quicky wrap-up ending due to The Powers That Be not wanting to rock the boat. My feeling is that sometimes you HAVE to rock the boat sometimes in order for anything to actually happen. Relationships come and go. If fans start complaining (which they weren't) then you just have them brake up. Simple as that.

2.) or is wonder woman in love with superman?

No. Diana was never in love with Superman. It simply isn't in Diana's character to pursue a man who is married to another woman. Diana told Lois as much when she offered Lois the chance to use the lasso on Diana. They did go out on a date before Clark and Lois got together though, but nothing really came out of it other than a strong friendship. During that HORRIBLE 1,000 year battle Supes and Diana fought there was some tension there, but I feel it was just BAD BAD writing by someone who obviously hadn't done their homework on actual continuity of the characters written.

3.) Why does batman always try to fight her but always gets his a$$ whopped?

Maybe because they are both master fighters but she has the advantage of being a meta-human on her side? Don't really know about that one.

4.) Is she the best fighter in the DCU?

You know, Diana is a master fighter as her people have 3,000 years of combat training passed on to her, but at the same time, I wouldn't say she is the "best" as other characters are more adapt to use their fighting skills than Diana is. Diana is more willing to talk her foes to death than resort to hand-to-hand combat as opposed to someone like, say, Shiva who uses her skills as an assassin in more everyday use. I would like to see the two go against each other, but I honestly don't know who would win.

5.) Has anyone ever broken her lasso?

See, here's the thing ... Diana's lasso is NEVER supposed to break. It is supposed to be indestructable. This has always held true in her title, as the only time it was shown to have broke (by Circe) Diana knew the battle wasn't real as she called the lasso breaking impossible and reality shifted back to actuality. This history was thrown out the window (yet again) by sloppy writing in the JLA comic. Not only that, but the writers there also had the lasso supposedly have some type of tie to world-wide truth. This is most definately NOT the case. The lasso is supposed to be a tool Diana uses to channel the truth power "already inside of her". In other words, the ability to sense the truth is in Diana, NOT the lasso. It's because of this and many other inconsistancies written that I tend to take Diana's depictions in the JLA comic with a grain of salt.

6.) Could a nuke take her out?

I believe she was nuked in her title during Eric Luke's run but it simply knocked her out.

7.) In current post crisis continuity, what is her strongest feat?

I believe she, with the help of Green Lantern, physically moved the moon. I forget where that happened though. I guess there are other events that could be pointed out but that's the first thing that came to mind.

- Peter

[Indigo Al]

Thanks for being our Wonder Woman Answer Man, artemisboy!

[Gremalkyn]

I believe she, with the help of Green Lantern, physically moved the moon. I forget where that happened though. I guess there are other events that could be pointed out but that's the first thing that came to mind.

If it is the same event, Wonder Woman, Superman, and Green Lantern all pulled the moon from orbit (then put it back) when Martian Manhunter convinced the White Martians to enter the Phantom Zone. Apparently, the moon grazed the Earth's atmosphere, allowing some air on the moon (they spoke during the fight) and the entry friction burned all of the Martians until the Whites surrendered before they would - literally - fry.

[Fenix]

Superman, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman pulled the earth during Obsidian age if I´m not mistaken.

[artemisboy]

Here's a list of the "known" Bana-Mighdallian Goddesses and a brief bio of their background:

Neith: Neith is generally regarded as the quintessential war-goddess and huntress deity of the Egyptians since the ancient predynastic period. She is also considered a goddess of impartiality. In her usual representations, she is portrayed as a fierce deity, a human female wearing the Red Crown, occasionally holding or using the bow and arrow, in others a harpoon. In fact, the hieroglyphs of her name are usually followed by a determinative containing the archery elements, with the "shield" symbol of the name being explained as either double bows (facing one another), intersected by two arrows (usually lashed to the bows), or by other imagery associated with her worship. Currently her physical appearance looks more like a female version of Clint Eastwood's character in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly", which seems to prove that the Bana-Mighdallian goddesses have followed the Olympian's example of taking a more physical representation of their current stations in modern day life than the more traditional looks they are known for. When Neith was first seen in the Wonder Woman comics she blessed Themyscira with "the nurturing spirit of motherhood and its ferocious protection".

Isis: The goddess of magic, the moon, fertility and motherhood. Unlike the other Egyptian goddesses, the goddess Isis spent time among her people, teaching women how to grow crops, make clothing, read, produce medicine and how to tame men. Traditionally Isis is seen as wearing a long, white, sleeveless gown and a head-dress of some type. She is currently depicted as wearing darker, more sophisticated /sexy business clothing complete with briefcase and an Ank (symbol of eternity) choker necklace. When Isis was first shown in the Wonder Woman comic she enchanted Themyscira with "magic and the magic possibility".

Bast: The goddess Bast is probably the most recognized of the Egyptian goddesses. She is known as the protector of women and, later, was made a war goddess. She is recognized as having a cat-like head and a humanoid body. As a protector of cats, Bast can also shape-shift into the form of a domestic black cat. Lesser known dominions Bast holds over are: home, art, music, dance, sex, protector of the underworld, the moon and dawn. Traditionally Bast was seen as wearing one hoop earring, a large necklace that covers her neck down to her chest area and a white skirt. Presently Bast has been seen wearing black leather clothing and spiked heeled boots, along with her traditional earring. Of the Bana-Mighdallian goddesses, Bast was the only one who did not make a blessing upon Themyscira. Her depiction though in the Vertigo comics showed that she was not as powerful as she once was as she did not have as many followers. This leads me to believe that her loyalty to the remaining Bana-Mighdallian Amazon followers is exceptionally passionate as she needs their faith in order to remain in power. Thus, I would see her as an executioner of sorts when needed.

Mammitu: Mammitu (or Mamitu) is an Akkadian goddess of the oath, later a goddess of fate and a judge in the underworld. In the Wonder Woman comics she was also referred to as a demon of irrevocable curses. She was shown to wear a flowing orange gown and an orange organic headpiece. Her current more 'every day' look has not been shown as of yet. When she blessed the island of Themyscira she bound all the previous goddesses' blessings to Themsycira with "an oath of commitment no god or mortal shall defy without swift retribution".

While these goddesses are the only Bana-Mighdallian goddesses shown in the comic book thus far, it can be assumed that there are far more dieties in their faith as is the case with the Themyscirian Amazon's worship of their main Olympian goddesses. For example, the goddess Bast had a daughter named Sakmet who had a face of a lion and was a fiery and destructive war goddess. As such, the Amazons would respect such a god but ultimately not worship the diety outright. Sakmet was seen briefly in battle just before Themyscira's transformation, as was the god Thoth. Another potential goddess in their pantheon could be the goddess Ishtar, a love goddess, as she was a widely known Arabic goddess.

- Peter

[We R. Venom]

She has a cousin in Teen Titans, whats up with her. And who is powergirl, is she related? Also Ive been told she's nevr lost a fight. Who has she fought, like seriously. no mind control or magic im talkin one on one.

[artemisboy]

She has a cousin in Teen Titans, whats up with her. And who is powergirl, is she related? Also Ive been told she's nevr lost a fight. Who has she fought, like seriously. no mind control or magic im talkin one on one.

The only official cousin Diana is supposed to have had was Hippolytus, the son of her aunt Antiope. He lived thousands of years ago though, so his survival (as he was not immortal) seems unlikely. I believe you are thinking of Cassandra Sandsmark (or Cassie) who is the current Wonder Girl. Cassie and Diana are not related but merely friends. It's more like a mentor kind of thing. And Power Girl is rumored to be related to the Superman family, not the Wonder family.

- Peter

[Wonder Bebs]

Okay, this questions been bugging me for a hot while: What exactly happened between the Themscyrian Amazons and the Amazons of Bana-Mighdal? They really didn't seem to get along very well until Our World's at war happened and Hippoltya died. Could you clear this up for me?

[artemisboy]

I believe that the combination of losing so many Amazons during the second Amazon civil war and the Our Worlds At War battles made the Amazons realize that there are not as many "sisters" left to carry on the race. Thus they most probably put their issues aside and tried to build up from the ruins of their ravaged people and tried to make it great again as a true united nation. Each tribe gained much respect for the other during the end of each war though, thus helping ease the annimosity. Hippolyta's denouncement of the royal throne in addition to her death defending both tribes during the OWAW incident helped the Bana-Mighdallian Amazons see the Themyscirian Amazons as worthy of respect. The Themyscirian Amazons also gained respect for the Banas as they equally put their lives at risk and have an honest leader in Artemis to help guide their people. Also, whereas the island of Themyscira was once governed by one set of gods, the Olympians, the goddesses worshiped by the Bana-Mighdallians stepped into the picture after the wars and have blessed the islands and it's people, thus giving both tribes equal footing in the grand scheme of things.

- Peter

[artemisboy]

Or do you mean their relationship before the wars? If that is the case, the annimosity arose from several areas. The first being that Diana went to their Egyptian city and not only tried to take their most prized possession from them (the second girdle of Gaea) but also helped destroy the city to rubble. Thus, the remaining survivors of the explosion were left without a home and many of their once great nation dead. In retaliation they allied themselves with the witch Circe during the the War Of The Gods crossover. During that time they held some Themyscirian Amazons prisoner and helped cause the death of others. They also managed to brainwash Hippolyta into becoming their "Shimtar" (or warrior representative) to attack Diana. This is something Hippolyta never forgave. When that arrangement failed, the Bana Amazons demanded payment from Circe in the gift of immortality and to be teleported to Themysciria to attack the Themyscirians in order to take the island for themselves as a new home to replace the one that Diana helped destroy. This caused the first Amazon civil war in which many Amazons on both sides died. This war was interupted by a seige of demons Circe sent to kill both tribes. It was due to this attack that both Amazon tribes set their issues aside to fight the demons. After the demons were destroyed it was agreed that the 'new' Amazons could live on the island but far away from the 'old' ones. And that is how it remained until the second Amazon civil war. Living together but with underlying tension. Kind of like having a roomate you didn't see eye to eye with.

- Peter

[Wonder Bebs]

Actually I needed a bit of clarity on both ends, which you gave. Thanks a million.^^ That's the one bit of Wonder Woman's history that I just didn't get.

[Fenix]

Ok some questions here... I´m not a frecuent reader of Wondy, but I´d like to know:

1) Who are the supporting cast lately? Because I know Hippolyta is dead, Trevor is dead, Troia is dead, in fact, there is someone still alive:D??

2) Which is the rol of Cassie? Where did she come from?

3) IMO "The Contest" and "Hiketeia" are examples of good writing and good art regarding WW comic books, Can someone recomend me any other mini or story arc that could be as good as those?

Thanks.

[artemisboy]

Ok some questions here... I´m not a frecuent reader of Wondy, but I´d like to know:

1) Who are the supporting cast lately? Because I know Hippolyta is dead, Trevor is dead, Troia is dead, in fact, there is someone still alive:D??

Thus far, Diana's supporting cast consists of: Julia and Vanessa K., her Embassy staff, Veronica Cale, the doctor who used to work with Veronica but now is Diana's friend, the Olympian and Bana-Mighdallian gods, and the Amazons of Themyscira. Circe and the Gorgons have been around for a while also.

2) Which is the role of Cassie? Where did she come from?

Cassie is pretty much a young girl who loves to be a superhero. She is friends with Diana and sees her kind of like an older sister. She is the daughter of Diana's former boss Hellena Sandsmark. Diana worked for her at her museum for a while during Byrne's run. Cassie went befor Zeus and asked him to bless her with Wonder Woman-esque powers and he did. Hellena made Diana promise that she wouldn't encourage Cassie's interest in becoming a superhero so Diana had Artemis train her in her powers as she didn't want Cassie to go into battle unknowing.

3) IMO "The Contest" and "Hiketeia" are examples of good writing and good art regarding WW comic books, Can someone recomend me any other mini or story arc that could be as good as those?

Try picking up George Perez's recently collected works from the first issues of his run. They're pretty engrossing. I believe there are two released in TPB now. Also, if you liked "The Contest" try reading it's follow-up TPB "The Challenge of Artemis".

- Peter

[Fenix]

Another question:

I know Diana died during Byrne´s run, could you tell me how did he kill her and how did she come back to life?

Thanks again.

[artemisboy]

Byrne actually killed Diana twice during his run. The first time Diana was killed was when the Amazons all began to turn to stone due to the fact that the Olympian gods removed themselves from the earthly plain, and thus the ties to their magic was severed from the Amazons. Diana eventually crumbled to dust. The Olympians brought her, and the rest of the Amazons, back to life. The second time he had Diana killed, it was by the hands of Neron. She was resurrected by the Olympian gods yet again and this time was transformed into the Goddess of Truth. (She later gave up that position and resumed being Wonder Woman again.)

- Peter

[Fenix]

I´ve read "Challenge of Artemis" and it was great, thanks Artemisboy :-)

[artemisboy]

I´ve read "Challenge of Artemis" and it was great, thanks Artemisboy :-)

Not a problem. I love those stories! They're actually what made me start collecting the comic. :)

- Peter

[Jeff O.]

BY Bored at 3:00AM

WHY DID SHE LOOK SO DIFFERENT DURING THE SIXTIES?

With sales in the toilet, DC decided to try something completely different with their flagship super-heroine. And by completely different, I mean completely the same as a more popular female icon at that time—Emma Peel of the hip British spy show, The Avengers (no relation to the Marvel super-team). As written by Robert Kanigher, Princess Diana suddenly lost her Amazon powers, quit the Justice League and became Diana Prince, a kung-fu fighting chick in mod mini-skirts and form-fitting jumpsuits.

This radical new direction only lasted a few years....




I have a quick correction.

The Emma Peel-style Wonder Woman of the late 60s was the work of Denny O'Neil and Mike Sekowsky under editor Jack Miller. They replaced Robert Kanigher, who'd been writing the strip since Dr. Marston's death and editing the book since '58. Kanigher took back over briefly after the bosses ordered Diana back into spandex but his retro approach failed to recapture the title's lost audience.


As you may all know by now, the latest Oddball Comics Column spotlights WONDER WOMAN No. 185 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/oddball/index.cgi?date=2004-08-20), from that "kung-fu fighting chick" period. There is also a poll about the comic here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=15848).

[Mia]

I'm really digging Wondy in the current JLU. Is she as cool in the book?

[GUTB]

There was some flirtation there, but I believe that possible relationship was settled in JLA in which both of them realized that it could never work out. I think that resolution is all whooie myself though. I quicky wrap-up ending due to The Powers That Be not wanting to rock the boat. My feeling is that sometimes you HAVE to rock the boat sometimes in order for anything to actually happen. Relationships come and go. If fans start complaining (which they weren't) then you just have them brake up. Simple as that.

I can't recall any flirtation of any kind between Batman and WW. I don't deny there may have been some really bad JLA issue in which that may have happened but I assaign that sort of thing to crap writing like when Arsenal slept with Huntress. The only place this pairing ever happens is the animated series -- and even then, it's pretty much one-way (Diana has a "thing" for both Bruce and Clark, leaning more towards Bruce with neither one of the two guys returning any of it). Needless to say I dislike this "triangle of one" which makes her look kind of pathetic.

No. Diana was never in love with Superman. It simply isn't in Diana's character to pursue a man who is married to another woman.

Sorry, but this is false wether you like it or not. Early in her 2nd series (starting in '87) there were a couple of refrences to Diana having at least a crush on Superman. Besides the clear refrences, there were many instances in which she clearly is very concerned about his opinion of her, etc. She has stated outright that she finds him attractive. All of this is present not only in team books and crossovers, but in her own series.

In addition, Superman also admitted to himself in a thought bubble that he "almost fell for her" in a crossover issue of WW.

Since then, various writers have always made refrences and allusions to this romance that never happened. I can cite several scenes in the last two years alone in regular DCU continunity in which the subject is broached and no one denies it.

How it's always been played is this: If there was no Lois, Superman would have probably gotten into a relationship with WW. Otherwise they are aware of an attraction but would never act on it.

[Stanlos]

Sorry, but this is false wether you like it or not. Early in her 2nd series (starting in '87) there were a couple of refrences to Diana having at least a crush on Superman. Besides the clear refrences, there were many instances in which she clearly is very concerned about his opinion of her, etc. She has stated outright that she finds him attractive. All of this is present not only in team books and crossovers, but in her own series.


Diana did first have a crush on Superman. But that was resolved after Action #600 and the follow-up in WW#17. Now they are merely good friends.


In addition, Superman also admitted to himself in a thought bubble that he "almost fell for her" in a crossover issue of WW.

Since then, various writers have always made refrences and allusions to this romance that never happened. I can cite several scenes in the last two years alone in regular DCU continunity in which the subject is broached and no one denies it.

How it's always been played is this: If there was no Lois, Superman would have probably gotten into a relationship with WW. Otherwise they are aware of an attraction but would never act on it.

Many tabloids in the DCU have stories about the two being an item. While it may have been the greatest couple that never was, the important part is that it never was. The two realized soon after their 'first date' that they were not right for each other and that they should be friends. Now Diana is a good friend of Lois and Clark's and has given Clark the nudge to go after Lois on several occasions.

[blue13]

I can't recall any flirtation of any kind between Batman and WW. I don't deny there may have been some really bad JLA issue in which that may have happened but I assaign that sort of thing to crap writing like when Arsenal slept with Huntress. The only place this pairing ever happens is the animated series -- and even then, it's pretty much one-way (Diana has a "thing" for both Bruce and Clark, leaning more towards Bruce with neither one of the two guys returning any of it). Needless to say I dislike this "triangle of one" which makes her look kind of pathetic.

wow, someone is biased. and short-sighted.

the flirtation between batman and ww occurred during kelly's JLA run. and no, it's not "crap writing" just because YOU don't like it.

in the animated series, diana does NOT have a thing for clark. DOES NOT.

i don't know what you're watching, honestly.


Sorry, but this is false wether you like it or not. Early in her 2nd series (starting in '87) there were a couple of refrences to Diana having at least a crush on Superman. Besides the clear refrences, there were many instances in which she clearly is very concerned about his opinion of her, etc. She has stated outright that she finds him attractive. All of this is present not only in team books and crossovers, but in her own series.

In addition, Superman also admitted to himself in a thought bubble that he "almost fell for her" in a crossover issue of WW.

Since then, various writers have always made refrences and allusions to this romance that never happened. I can cite several scenes in the last two years alone in regular DCU continunity in which the subject is broached and no one denies it.



first, there was an attraction when they first met -- YEARS ago. 1987 was over 17 years ago.

but there's definitely no attraction now. please cite the several scenes in the last two years. please.

greg rucka, who writes ww, has said that clark and diana are like siblings. that bruce and diana are even closer, because of the similarities that they share.

diana even offered to let lois use the lasso on her regarding her attraction to clark. you can't hide the truth from the lasso. in joe kelly's JLA run, diana laughed, almost hysterically, at the notion of her and clark.

matt wagner, in trinity, was intrigued by the idea of batman and ww.

in JLU, probably the most mainstream version, there's a focus on bruce and diana. NOT clark and diana. and why is that? because anything clark and diana is in the past, and it's boring, cliched writing.

outside of their powers and color schemes for their costumes? what do clark and diana share? nothing.

gee, they're the strongest people...let's put them together!!! PLEASE. use a little imagination.

all this is TRUE, whether YOU like it or not. i know you have your own opinion on this, but don't mix up past continuity that's been retconned to make things fit your view.


Since then, various writers have always made refrences and allusions to this romance that never happened. I can cite several scenes in the last two years alone in regular DCU continunity in which the subject is broached and no one denies it.

How it's always been played is this: If there was no Lois, Superman would have probably gotten into a relationship with WW. Otherwise they are aware of an attraction but would never act on it.

says who? says YOU. save it for the fanfics.

notice how i gave examples -- rucka, wagner, JLU -- whereas you're speaking from opinion. who are these "various writers"? cite examples.

[Stanlos]

diana even offered to let lois use the lasso on her regarding her attraction to clark. you can't hide the truth from the lasso. in joe kelly's JLA run, diana laughed, almost hysterically, at the notion of her and clark.

Ooooo!! Can you tell me the issue number! I didn't know about this one!

[Dr. Simian]

Personally, I liked Grant Morrison's idea that there was an unspoken romantic tension between Diana and Aurthur (Aquaman). Too bad that went nowhere.

[wwfan84]

diana even offered to let lois use the lasso on her regarding her attraction to clark. you can't hide the truth from the lasso. in joe kelly's JLA run, diana laughed, almost hysterically, at the notion of her and clark.

Ooooo!! Can you tell me the issue number! I didn't know about this one!

It's in WW #170.

[GUTB]

Sigh. I hate this subject.

Okay, time for some schooling. Amongst the relevant writers (ones who worked on WW, team books, and the various Superman books) you could say there is a pro and anti camps in the WW/Supes pairing. Rucka happens to be in the anti camp. Perez (the guy who rebooted WW post-Crisis) was in the pro camp. Lately, Geoff Johns, being one of the more influential writers at DC, has been tilting the balance clearly over to the pro side. Not to mention Austen has proven himself, in very short order, to be in the pro camp as well (who is reported to have wanted Diana in his recent sub-plot with the straining relationship with Lois but was told No and so used Lana instead).

I'll also admit that there are one or two writers which were WW/Bats, but these are (thankfully!) in the tiny minority. Why would anyone want to get in the way of Batman/Catwoman? That is possibly the most legendary romance in comic books. I also dislike the animated Justice League take on the relationship, which makes Diana look pathetic after Bruce clearly rejected her and Clark remains utterly uninterested.

However. I'm not against a WW/Bats relationship in JLU, as the characterizations are different enough to allow for it. But if they do it, they really ought to make Clark an antagonist in that relationship -- I believe all proper romances should have an antagonist.

[Mia]

Why would anyone want to get in the way of Batman/Catwoman? That is possibly the most legendary romance in comic books.

Because it's rediculous? How many times has he blown her off already? Catwoman is a fun character but she's way too low for Batman. Batman needs a woman with class. All she does is rub herself up against him. Why would a man like Batman want to be with a woman like that full time?
Batman and Catwoman are bed buddies that's it. They get together and screw each other once in awhile (Catwoman 32) that's it. That's not love that's lust.

[GUTB]

So it's your opinion that Hush should be disregarded?

[Mia]

So it's your opinion that Hush should be disregarded?


Not at all. Not in the least. The most satisfying momment during that story was at the end when, Batman saw her for what she truly was, and kicked her to the curb. Ah! What joy!

[blue13]

Why would anyone want to get in the way of Batman/Catwoman? That is possibly the most legendary romance in comic books.

Because it's rediculous? How many times has he blown her off already? Catwoman is a fun character but she's way too low for Batman. Batman needs a woman with class. All she does is rub herself up against him. Why would a man like Batman want to be with a woman like that full time?
Batman and Catwoman are bed buddies that's it. They get together and screw each other once in awhile (Catwoman 32) that's it. That's not love that's lust.

wow, judge much?

he doesn't "blow her off". and he didn't "kick her to the curb" at the end of hush.

it's just he has different priorities. and romance or a relationship would only distract him.

all she does is rub herself against him? she basicly sacrificed her life in hush to keep talia away from lady shiva.

one of the best things about brubaker's run was how batman and selina are almost soul-mates. they understand each other like no one else can -- two tortured, tragic characters.

you can ignore all this if you want, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

[blue13]

Sigh. I hate this subject.

Okay, time for some schooling. Amongst the relevant writers (ones who worked on WW, team books, and the various Superman books) you could say there is a pro and anti camps in the WW/Supes pairing. Rucka happens to be in the anti camp. Perez (the guy who rebooted WW post-Crisis) was in the pro camp. Lately, Geoff Johns, being one of the more influential writers at DC, has been tilting the balance clearly over to the pro side. Not to mention Austen has proven himself, in very short order, to be in the pro camp as well (who is reported to have wanted Diana in his recent sub-plot with the straining relationship with Lois but was told No and so used Lana instead).

I'll also admit that there are one or two writers which were WW/Bats, but these are (thankfully!) in the tiny minority. Why would anyone want to get in the way of Batman/Catwoman? That is possibly the most legendary romance in comic books. I also dislike the animated Justice League take on the relationship, which makes Diana look pathetic after Bruce clearly rejected her and Clark remains utterly uninterested.

However. I'm not against a WW/Bats relationship in JLU, as the characterizations are different enough to allow for it. But if they do it, they really ought to make Clark an antagonist in that relationship -- I believe all proper romances should have an antagonist.

first, geoff johns is pro clark-diana? no, he's not. i haven't heard ANYTHING even resembling this, GUTB. give me a link where you saw this.

second, austen is obsessed with soap opera. not a criticism, just pointing it out. and even austen acknowledged that diana had a "thing" with bruce recently.

how is ww/bats in the minority? more people watch JLU than read comics...and when they what JLU, what do they see?

and bruce didn't reject her. he just pointed out the cons of dating within the team. if you watched the episode, you'd know that he even sacrificed his dignity for her -- that took a lot. :D

great episode.

and again, i don't know what you're watching -- but it's not that clark isn't interested, DIANA isn't interested. seriously, she's shown ZERO interest in clark on JLU.

it's one thing to read too much into things, it's another to see things that aren't even there.

[artemisboy]

I'm not against a WW/Bats relationship in JLU, as the characterizations are different enough to allow for it. But if they do it, they really ought to make Clark an antagonist in that relationship -- I believe all proper romances should have an antagonist.

But in JLU Diana and Clark are not that close. They are merely teammates who respect each other. Just like how Clark respects Green Lantern. They don't even have the close comic book friendship on their side. If ANYone should be an antagonist to Diana's and Bruce's relationship it should be Catwoman. Just how long HAS it been since Catwoman been shown in Batman/Justice League? (Not counting the new Batman cartoon as that is out of JLU continuity.)

If you want to see a specific issue on Diana's and Bruce's romance together, I suggest JLA #90. I believe this is the same issue in which Diana laughed at the notion of her having a romantic relationship with Clark. Wonder Woman #170 also further supports the "nothing but a strong friendship" angle of Diana and Clark's relationship. After all, why would Clark wanna fool around with Diana when he LOVES Lois?

- Peter

[Evan Waters]

Is there any one villain who's really WW's chief nemesis? In the sense that Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has the Joker, GL has Sinestro (sometimes), etc.

[artemisboy]

Is there any one villain who's really WW's chief nemesis? In the sense that Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has the Joker, GL has Sinestro (sometimes), etc.

Not really. Rucka is trying to make Veronica Cale into Diana's Lex Luthor, but if you had to boil them down ... Diana's chief rival WAS Ares until he became more benevilant. Now it would have to be Circe. Devistation has a serious hate for Diana but she's not been seen in quite a while.

- Peter

[GUTB]

Yes, in fact, Johns is pro-Supes/WW. Let's view the evidence, shall we?

1. Most obvious one: the Conner/Cass relationship. How many issues went by before Johns had them leaping into each other's laps? And the fact that their future selves remained lovers in the current story arc (while calling themselves Wonder Woman and Superman). There's absolutely NO subtext there? Johns has NO leanings in regards to Supes/WW one way or the other? None at all? Right.

2. Johns constantly writes Supes and WW together in crossover issues of other titles (like Flash). Again, absolutely NO subtext there. Nope.

3. And the most blatant refrence that I recall occurs in JSA Secret Origins #1 in which Stargirl tried to engage WW in some gossip:

Stargirl: "He's so hot, though. Don't you think so, Wonder Woman?" [in refrence to Supes]
WW: "...he's a good man, Star." [looking away]
Stargirl: "People are always talking about you and him. Wonder Woman and Superman. Like you belong together."
Stargirl: "Well, Wonder Woman? Would you ever--?"
WW: "Become romantically involved with Kal? I'm the ambassador of peace for Themyscira. I don't have time for romance."
Powergirl: "Whoa. Like that's not dodging the question."

Nope. Absolutely NO subtext in that exchange. Completely innocent chit-chat. Yep. Because Johns handles so many major titles now these days, his view of the relationship is going to get an inordinate amount of exposure, which is why I said he's tilted the balance clearly to WW/Supes at DC.

Now, moving onto the JLU. As I said, the characterization are different enough to allow for a Bats/WW pairing (she doesn't tower above mortals in the animated series and Bats is a bit more laid-back). I'm just saying: if they do go for it, I wish they'd make Clark the antagonist -- like make him be a bastard and pull authority to get in their way. The reason why I want Clark for this is because there's no one else that can fill the role; the character has to frequently appear and have a part in stories, and have the credibility to challenge Bats and/or WW in a meanigful way. So it has to be a core member. Hawkgirl and Stewart are spoken for. MM isn't compatible with humans. That leaves Clark. Wellllll I guess you could have Flash take this role (but he'd actually have to appear in the damn series) and now that i think about it that would be a good choice to.

And Diana, excuse me, is close to Clark in the series. Even if you deny that there's any attraction, she was in tears and ready to execute Toyman on the spot when they thought he had killed Supes.

[blue13]

Yes, in fact, Johns is pro-Supes/WW. Let's view the evidence, shall we?

1. Most obvious one: the Conner/Cass relationship. How many issues went by before Johns had them leaping into each other's laps? And the fact that their future selves remained lovers in the current story arc (while calling themselves Wonder Woman and Superman). There's absolutely NO subtext there? Johns has NO leanings in regards to Supes/WW one way or the other? None at all? Right.


LOL. you make me laugh. they're completely different characters. you're trying to force them to fit the mold of what YOU think. donna troy -- who is VERY similar to ww, had a relationship with kyle rayner -- does that mean ww is attracted to green lantern too?

see my point?

let it go. you're reading too much into things.

2. Johns constantly writes Supes and WW together in crossover issues of other titles (like Flash). Again, absolutely NO subtext there. Nope.

once again, GUTB...i realize this is VERY hard for you, but they're teammates. of course they're gonna work together.

did you read those issues? NOTHING happened. NO subtext. try reading those issues. is ww gonna have a relationship with everyone that she works with? no.

3. And the most blatant refrence that I recall occurs in JSA Secret Origins #1 in which Stargirl tried to engage WW in some gossip:

Stargirl: "He's so hot, though. Don't you think so, Wonder Woman?" [in refrence to Supes]
WW: "...he's a good man, Star." [looking away]
Stargirl: "People are always talking about you and him. Wonder Woman and Superman. Like you belong together."
Stargirl: "Well, Wonder Woman? Would you ever--?"
WW: "Become romantically involved with Kal? I'm the ambassador of peace for Themyscira. I don't have time for romance."
Powergirl: "Whoa. Like that's not dodging the question."

it's secret ORIGINS. go back and reread it with a clear mind, and without looking for things that aren't there. the fact that you're bolding all these words says it all -- you're reading too much into things. all this is in the past, anyway. it's secret ORIGINS, for crying out loud.

Nope. Absolutely NO subtext in that exchange. Completely innocent chit-chat. Yep. Because Johns handles so many major titles now these days, his view of the relationship is going to get an inordinate amount of exposure, which is why I said he's tilted the balance clearly to WW/Supes at DC.

first, GUTB, the "balance" at DC is CLEARLY not ww/supes.

you said it yourself. austen wanted to pair up supes with ww...and he was TOLD NO. that speaks volumes.

second, how can you possibly say that the balance is pro ww/supes when the writer of ww -- greg rucka, is clearly anti ww/supes. he has more say than geoff johns.

considering he writes both ww and adventures of superman. geoff johns writes...what? titans, flash, and green lantern. not even close. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL. try to understand.

GEOFF JOHNS DOES NOT WRITE WW OR SUPERMAN OR JLA, ETC. he's not in favor of ww/supes...and he has no say.

try to be rational. cuz you're making no sense. sure, geoff johns is one of the most important writers at DC, but he's not writing ANY of the titles in question. so NO, the balance is not in favor of ww/supes.

keep dreaming. it's not happening. no matter how much YOU want it to.


And Diana, excuse me, is close to Clark in the series. Even if you deny that there's any attraction, she was in tears and ready to execute Toyman on the spot when they thought he had killed Supes.

of course she's close to clark in the series. they're friends. i never denied that.

but you're seeing things that aren't there. seriously.

there's zero flirtation. zero interest beyond friendship.

go watch "this little piggy", and just pretend that it was clark instead of bruce. ;)

[blue13]

the bottom line, GUTB, is that...


when austen wanted to pair up supes with ww, what did DC say?

that's right -- they said NO. :)

ww offered to let lois use the lasso on her -- regarding her attraction to clark.

you can't hide the truth from the lasso -- would ww make that offer if she were attracted to clark?

no.

on JLU, the most mainstream version, who is ww paired with? :)

i mean, it's all there, and you're choosing to ignore it.

let it go. ww/supes was a possibility a LONG time ago. honestly, let it go.

[HynerianChef]

Yes, in fact, Johns is pro-Supes/WW. Let's view the evidence, shall we?

1. Most obvious one: the Conner/Cass relationship. How many issues went by before Johns had them leaping into each other's laps? And the fact that their future selves remained lovers in the current story arc (while calling themselves Wonder Woman and Superman). There's absolutely NO subtext there? Johns has NO leanings in regards to Supes/WW one way or the other? None at all? Right.
I'm not debating your overall point, but if this is the most obvious evidence... well, not really. I'm fairly sure the basis for the Conner/Cass relationship came long before Geoff Johns took over as their regular writer. Cass alone has been infatuated with Superboy as far back as the early issues of Young Justice, as I recall, not to mention Wonder Woman's own title where there was an entire issue dedicated to it. The fact that a current couple remains together in the future is no big surprise really... honestly, it's something fairly common in time-travel / future stories actually, from Piotr/Kitty in Days Of Future Past to even Emma/Cyclops in X-Men: The End.

Johns might well be pro Supes/WW, but I don't think Conner/Cass really count as some attempt at subtext in this regard.

[GUTB]

I reproduced the dialouge found in JSA Secret Origins #1 exactly, inlcuding the bolded text. Do any of you read that and not think Johns is pro-WW/Supes?

[davids]

I believed it was in WW170 called trinity [not the mimi series] That Cronus from the Titans tried to kill Diana [precursors of the olympians!] by using the wonder dome to trap her in a fantasy world of her own creation. He did it by giving her just what she wanted, Clark! In her perfect world she finaly got what she wanted most and that was Clark. In her coma induced fantasy she and clark had a powerful romantic relationship. They fought side by side, loved and made love were even married.

When Batman and superman came to save her they to were tapped in her dream. It was perfect for her even if she and her friends were slowly dieing. only when she began to notice that no matter how happy her clark seemed to be, he had a look on his face that somthing was missing from their perfect world. It was at the dinner table when Clark and Diana was telling their friend about the baby that was on the way. Did the whole thing fall apart. First it was bruce telling her in a note that all this was wrong. That somthing was issing out of clarks life and Diana finaly woke up and was one pUed Amazon. I also happened to notice that when bruce left and Clark was flying off to be with Lois. There were tears in Diana's eyes! But it is equaly true Wonder woman would not become between husband and wife. and as for Clark, man can love two women at the same time, perhaps even want both of them. But most important of all remain faiyhfull to the one! That very short story I found and have posted here on these boads explain it
better than I can!

[GUTB]

That one was a two-parter. There were actually two different fantasies. The first one was when Diana was trapped by herself in a fantasy in which she lived a life she managed to achieve what she set out to do, change the world for the better. During this fantasy, Supes and Bats broke into the wonderdome. Just as she was on her death bed, after having doing everything she had set out to do, she suddenly wanted More and thus seemed to end the first fantasy. The second fantasy occured when the wonderdome trapped all three of them together. In this one, Diana met Clark Kent, quickly became lovers, double-teamed all sorts of adventures with him. After a while he introduced her to his pal, Bruce, who acted as their confidant and closest friend. They finally got married and shortly after Diana got pregnant, Bruce broaches the subject of things not being right. Everybody knows this to be true, and they end the second fantasy, which rapidly fades away from memory like a dream. And yes, Diana cries at the end, presumably, having recalled the feeling of being in love.

[Jessica Drew]

:eek:

When did Donna Troy die? :mad: In what comic? What issue?

[chemicalx]

:eek:

When did Donna Troy die? :mad: In what comic? What issue?

Teen Titans/Young Justice crossover issue #3 I think. trying to stop a suerman robot Donna was shot through the heart and died instantly.

At the end of the book there is a page of donna waking up on a distant world and going off into battle. the text read " Elsewhere, Donna Troy awakened in a desolate world, and heeded a cry into battle."

maybe there is hope for the future

[Karl J. Barnes]

Teen Titans/Young Justice crossover issue #3 I think. trying to stop a suerman robot Donna was shot through the heart and died instantly.

At the end of the book there is a page of donna waking up on a distant world and going off into battle. the text read " Elsewhere, Donna Troy awakened in a desolate world, and heeded a cry into battle."

maybe there is hope for the future

Maybe a mini-series or even an ongoing one, like Warlord(since she's in an alternative universe).

[chemicalx]

Maybe a mini-series or even an ongoing one, like Warlord(since she's in an alternative universe).

We can only hope... I miss donna she was always one of my favorite DC characters. She should be on Teen Titans not starfire :mad:

[GUTB]

Donna Troy's death was meanigful. Leave it be.

We have a new Wonder Girl and she's doing just fine. To be honest her character is better than Donna's.

[Matt Algren]

We can only hope... I miss donna she was always one of my favorite DC characters. She should be on Teen Titans not starfire :mad:
Donna returning seems to be the indication in Teen Titans. In fact, they just got back from a future (ten years) where there was evidence that Donna had returned. I'll be surprised if she's not back by this time next year. Also...
I have a feeling you're going to be happy with this month's Teen Titans issue. The promo says someone's leaving and last issue (in the future), Kory was told that her future was away from the Titans with Dick.

[chemicalx]

Donna Troy's death was meanigful. Leave it be.

We have a new Wonder Girl and she's doing just fine. To be honest her character is better than Donna's.

Donna got killed randomly by a robot superman how is that meaningful? I had some affect on Wonder girl and Diana for all of One issue very little development came out of it and the way the story ended left an opening for her return anyway.

I also have to disagree about Cassie being better than Donna but we both have our opinions

[Karl J. Barnes]

Donna returning seems to be the indication in Teen Titans. In fact, they just got back from a future (ten years) where there was evidence that Donna had returned. I'll be surprised if she's not back by this time next year. Also...
I have a feeling you're going to be happy with this month's Teen Titans issue. The promo says someone's leaving and last issue (in the future), Kory was told that her future was away from the Titans with Dick.

*BAD POST!BAD!*

[Karl J. Barnes]

Donna returning seems to be the indication in Teen Titans. In fact, they just got back from a future (ten years) where there was evidence that Donna had returned. I'll be surprised if she's not back by this time next year. Also...
I have a feeling you're going to be happy with this month's Teen Titans issue. The promo says someone's leaving and last issue (in the future), Kory was told that her future was away from the Titans with Dick.

Which is sad, since I was hoping that Dick and Barbra would make a go of things.

[Matt Algren]

Which is sad, since I was hoping that Dick and Barbra would make a go of things.
Me too. Hopefully this won't mean rekindling a romance. Especially with the Bat-trend toward old skool, Dick dating a 7-foot tall alien seems out of place.

[Mia]

I just bought the first Rucka trade. And my question is...how on earth can you people support this boring book? Also is this a comic book or a platform for the author to hawk his political views?

[Kevin Street]

Opinions differ. I quite like the way Rucka has been writing Wonder Woman. And what makes you think that those are the political views of the author? They're the beliefs expressed by the character, but that doesn't mean the author believes in them as well. Good characters have (virtual) lives of their own, and are more than simple mouthpieces for the author.

[Mia]

. And what makes you think that those are the political views of the author? They're the beliefs expressed by the character, but that doesn't mean the author believes in them as well. Good characters have (virtual) lives of their own, and are more than simple mouthpieces for the author.


I meant the tone of the book as a whole.

[muimi]

I meant the tone of the book as a whole.

Clarify? I've followed the Rucka run and love it, personally. To each their own tastes but what in particular are you referring to as the tone you do not like?

[artemisboy]

I'm guessing the poster is saying that WW is coming across as preachy. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) I have to agree on that score. Granted, Diana is in Man's World to spread the love of her people, but if you focus too much on that aspect of her mission, you tend to bore a lot of people.

- Peter

[Mia]

I'm guessing the poster is saying that WW is coming across as preachy. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) I have to agree on that score. Granted, Diana is in Man's World to spread the love of her people, but if you focus too much on that aspect of her mission, you tend to bore a lot of people.

- Peter

No, I don't mean Diana's preachiness. I mean Rucka's "straw man" set up of the "right wingers" who are attacking her. When there was clearly nothing to attack her for. It was clearly a pot shot at conservatives, trying to portray them as ranting nuts throughout the book. Very unsubtle if you ask me.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I love Wonder Woman, and I love the mythological aspects of her backstory, and I understand that greek mythology is vital in her character's development, but I am getting tired of what seems to be a constant, relentless use of mythological foes and or villains for her.
Now the Rags Morales arc will also have to do with Myth.

I wish Rucka got his hands on Dr.Cyber, I wish there was an arc in the book that was purely about a threat that had nothing to do with myths or monsters...
and with a name like Dr Cyber, I imagine all kinds of stories about techno-terrorism, international intrigue, media conglomerates hellbent on controlling the minds of the world and such...
Can we have a short moratorium on Gods and Monsters?

[artemisboy]

My main gripe with the comic is that with each writer comes a new group of "best friends", with little if any mention to all the other "best friends" Diana has had previously. To me Diana doesn't seem the type of person to casually dismiss people she once thought of as family. But each new writer never really keeps this in mind when they sign on. Instead they prefer to create their own "mark" on the comic by introducing new people for Diana to fawn over. If only she'd take a look behind her she'd notice a small village of people collecting dust in comic book limbo.

- Peter

[Crinos]

Question:

In the Golden age WW's weakness was "The Law of Aphrodite" which meant she would lose her powers if she was tied up by a man. (Basically it was an excuse to put WW in bondages poses and such.) Does she still have that weakness today?

Also, what is the full extent of Dr. Psycho's powers?

[Charge]

Slightly off the current topic - How strong is a regular amazon? And is hippolyta any stronger than any of the other amazons without the gauntlet of atlas....

[Stanlos]

Question:

In the Golden age WW's weakness was "The Law of Aphrodite" which meant she would lose her powers if she was tied up by a man. (Basically it was an excuse to put WW in bondages poses and such.) Does she still have that weakness today?

Also, what is the full extent of Dr. Psycho's powers?

No, the LOA is no more. WW's weaknesses can be found in the Perez Bana storyline from WW#27-WW#35.

Aside from the current business, a really really creepy Doctor Psycho story is in WW54-WW#55. Although he did have Circe's help to reach Hermes.

[El Castigador]

Or does she have invurnability if so to what degree?

[trickster]

Hi, newcomer to the forums and newly readdicted to comics. I see people here keep saying there is nothing going on with Superman and Wonder Woman Unless I missed it, seems to me nobody read Kingdom Come, or at least they haven't mentioned it, where they actually get married, although it is when they are kinda past their prime (Batman's hair has gone completely white, although Clark and Diana, seem to have aged slower than him.... benefits of being a metahuman I guess), and even more Diana is pregnant with Clark. I don't think that's a book to dismiss easily although it could be that it wasn't published with DC but with their mature comics publisher. It's amazing how well it seems to continue the hints from the final episodes of the JLU (which suggests that a war between metahumans and humanity will occur - see Question Authority) and from the Countdown to Infinite Crisis and OMAC Project. Although why KK would appear before IC and OMAC is beyond me.

Apologies for any spoilers or unclear phrases.

[artemisboy]

Slightly off the current topic - How strong is a regular amazon? And is hippolyta any stronger than any of the other amazons without the gauntlet of atlas....

It all depends on which Amazons you are speaking of. A standard Themyscirian Amazon can lift up to one ton depending on what their vocation in the island is. example: a trained warrior who's job is to protect the Queen is probably gonna be stronger than an Amazon librarian who spends most of her time going over scrolls. Still, even the Amazon librarians are Amazons and are probably no slouch when it comes to hand-to-hand combat.

The Bana-Mighdallian Amazons have had their lineage weakened by being progeny of regular humans over the centuries so their strength levels are much lower than a Themyscirian Amazon's. They would most likely be on the level of an Olympic level human. So, no super-strength but the peak a regular human being can be.

- Peter

[davids]

Wonder Woman needs them, her skin is tougher than a human. She has been in space with out her blood boiling away or crushed at the bottom of the ocean from the presure. She is not bullet proff because devistation shot her in the side and almost died. Perhaps she is resistant, can take a hit from a 22, 9mm, or a 38. But A powerful gun fireing a large caliber bullet , such as a magnum or a 45 calibur or a rifle or machine gun slug would do heavy damage, even kill her.


in sensational comics 1941 diana needed her bracellets to control herself. With out them she would go berzerk, grow stronger faster and meaner. Her chubby amazon friend was able to get her back under comntrol by using Diana's lasso, [made from the girdle of Gaie the earth goddess] to get her friend and princess's bracellets back on her.

In project A-ko an anime movie from 1986 Wonder Woman's daughter [father superman]wore black bracellets to help check her power. She still was super strong, fast, could leap tall buildings and always in trouble, funny trouble but trouble. In the second anime feature she destroyed a hotel by acident because she didn't wear her powr damping bracellets because they didn't go with her new gown.

in kingdom come Wonder Woman became pregnant with superman's child, guess it was two lonley people coming together. Never saw the marriage, but knowing the Boy scout, her would insist on Diana making him an honest man! They always had strong feelings for one another. But no matter if Clark loved Diana, Lois is the big guys soulmate, and he would never cheat on her. Beside as some one posted here, Wonder Woman is no home wreaker! it would go against her personal honor to ever do such a thing.

I always thought if anyone thought such a match would be a good one it would be Lois herself. At the rate Wonder woman and her Husband aged and the knoweolge that her love unlike batman needs a woman and a family in his life [it's the way he ws brought up by the kents!] Lois would have done somthing to make sure her soulmate would not spend the coming decases or centuries alone.

in the kingdom, clark and diana's son Jonathan was born and quickly kidnapped by gog! Who travled to the past with the boy. Followed by KC versions of Clark diana and Bruce, there they met their younger counter parts.

The end of the story shows them THE reality of hyper time were all versions are possible, including the possible future between Clark and Diana.

No story has ever been done were superman and Wonder Woman have discussed their possible future together, I think it would be an interesting one.

wit the big event coming in august between Diana, Kal and pete Ross aka Ruin we will have to wait and see.

Side note about bracellets, Mulsons secretary was also his mistress and she always wore bracellets on both wrists 24/7 They, Molson, his wife, their children, his mistress their children all lived in the same house!

Quess they were the first hippie comune?

[artemisboy]

Hi, newcomer to the forums and newly readdicted to comics. I see people here keep saying there is nothing going on with Superman and Wonder Woman Unless I missed it, seems to me nobody read Kingdom Come, or at least they haven't mentioned it, where they actually get married, ...

Kingdom Come was an Elseworlds tale and does not fall into the current DC Universe "reality". More like wishful thinking on the part of the writer.

- Peter

[hondobrode]

I love Wonder Woman, and I love the mythological aspects of her backstory, and I understand that greek mythology is vital in her character's development, but I am getting tired of what seems to be a constant, relentless use of mythological foes and or villains for her.
Now the Rags Morales arc will also have to do with Myth.

I wish Rucka got his hands on Dr.Cyber, I wish there was an arc in the book that was purely about a threat that had nothing to do with myths or monsters...
and with a name like Dr Cyber, I imagine all kinds of stories about techno-terrorism, international intrigue, media conglomerates hellbent on controlling the minds of the world and such...
Can we have a short moratorium on Gods and Monsters?

YES ! I completely agree with you. Could we see more of the mainstream DCU ? I understand and appreciate the fact that WW has a mythological basis and roots, and that's fine, but could we possibly move past it ? I'm SO tired of everything mythological. No wonder her sales don't move up more.

[Yoda]

I just picked up WW 1-8 a little while ago and I was wondering how far Perez's initial run went and if the whole thing is worth picking up.

[Blackbird24]

I'd like to start reading WW. What would be a good jumping on point? Any help is appreciated.

[artemisboy]

I just picked up WW 1-8 a little while ago and I was wondering how far Perez's initial run went and if the whole thing is worth picking up.

Perez wrote the comic up until issue 62. The first few runs of his issues were collected into trade paperbacks. Check those books out and if you like it, then go for collecting the entire run.

- Peter

[artemisboy]

I'd like to start reading WW. What would be a good jumping on point? Any help is appreciated.

Read the first two George Perez trade paperback books. After that try reading the two William Messner-Loebs tpb books. That will give you a good backstory to the comic. Then, after you read the newer Rucka tpb, the current issues won't seem as confusing. (Thankfully you can read the books in your local comicbook store so you won't have to buy them unless you really want to.)

- Peter

[DracoMalfoy]

Hi There! I'm a newbie. Nice to met you guys!

Here's a question I have ALWAYS wondered: Who is stronger? Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel?

Captain Marvel is said to be equal to Superman. However Captain Marvel has the Strength of Hercules. Diana on the other hand has the strength of Gaea GREATER than that of Hercules. I'm a little confused to say the least because everyone I talk to believe that Captain Marvel is FAR stronger.

[artemisboy]

Hi There! I'm a newbie. Nice to met you guys!

Here's a question I have ALWAYS wondered: Who is stronger? Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel?

Captain Marvel is said to be equal to Superman. However Captain Marvel has the Strength of Hercules. Diana on the other hand has the strength of Gaea GREATER than that of Hercules. I'm a little confused to say the least because everyone I talk to believe that Captain Marvel is FAR stronger.

You'll typically have a lot of people up in arms on that one, but OFFICIALLY Diana is defined (in her own comic book) as being stronger than Hercules/Herakles with the power of the earth (Gaea) as her power-base. In the heiarchy, Superman is the strongest with Diana as #2 after him.

- Peter

[Gargus]

Granted Ive only really started to read DC stuff about a year before infinite crisis but I was always under the impression wonder woman didnt fly, she just had her invisible jet.

How come in cartoons and recent comics I see wonder woman flying? Could she always do this and I didnt know or what?

[protonik]

When DC was revamping their characters after the previous Crisis George Perez was given Wonder Woman. One of the things that DC did during this time was eliminate some of the sillier elements of their characters so WW lost the jet and the easiest way to solve her transport problems was that she can fly... John Byrne kinda brought back the jet in his run, its an invisible, amorphous blob that can turn into whatever WW needs...

Jason

[CoreyB]

In that John Byrne run, could she still fly? So she used a jet even though she could fly?

[estee]

From what I've heard, I think it would be best if we just ignored John Byrne's run on WW.

[shyguy]

She could still fly in Byrne's run. As Wondy herself explained in an early issue of Greg Rucka's run, she uses the jet when she needs to carry cargo or passengers (at the end of Phil Jimenez's run, Diana, Donna, and Cassie use the jet to fly to Argentina to fight the Cheetahs).

Also, the jet isn't an amorphous blob, anymore. When Diana stopped a tidal wave early in Greg Rucka's run, the lifeform that constituted the jet "died," leaving the jet intact but without any shape-changing capabilities.

Although it may not be around anymore now that Paradise Island blinked out of existence.

[Ontir]

Hopefully, with the new run, she'll have the jet, and NOT be able to fly anymore. They increased her powers, but diluted the character greatly!

[Wannabe]

I never understood the jet thing. She's a very mythologically based hero, then she has a jet. It doesn't really work that well.

[shyguy]

I never understood the jet thing. She's a very mythologically based hero, then she has a jet. It doesn't really work that well.

She's not just a mythologically-based hero, though. One of the most annoying things about the Perez reboot is that he took away a lot of the non-mythological things that made Wondy so cool and unique in the first place. Foremost among these elements is the concept of the Amazons as very technologically advanced.

In the Golden Age, the invisible jet (which I love) isn't out of place at all with other things like Wonder Woman's mental radio, the sphere that allows the Amazons to see what's going on outside of Paradise Island (while I'm pretty sure that was a gift of Athena, it looked like a machine and not a crystal ball), and the Purple Healing Ray. I'd love to see a modern writer pick up on some of these somewhat forgotten aspects of Wondy lore.

Even in the silver age, I get a kick out of seeing Wondy yell, "Calling Robot Plane!"

[tangentman]

The Purple Ray actually came back WITH the John Byrne run. Rucka used the ray in the IC crossover when the Amazon blacksmith Io reworked the Purple Healing Ray into a Purple Death Ray.

[chemicalx]

personally i much perfer WW being able to fly. the plane just seems silly to me and at this point for me would be a reduction in the character. not that powers make the character but i mean if she can fly then let her fly.

[shyguy]

The Purple Ray has also been pretty much useless since it was reintroduced. Or at least in Rucka's run (did Luke or Jimenez use it at all? I can't remember). It couldn't heal Vanessa or Diana's eyes (although it did get rid of her headache). And Wondy did use it on Batman after he got creamed by Superman.

I realize it's a problematic plot device, but I wish it did something once in a while (at least that would have made the post-Crisis Amazons less useless).

[Captain Jim]

From what I've heard, I think it would be best if we just ignored John Byrne's run on WW.

Don't believe everything you hear.

[shyguy]

Don't believe everything you hear.

While generally a good rule, I heartily endorse ignoring Byrne's entire Wonder Woman run and making up stories in your head about how everything that changed during that time.

Unless you really like scratchy artwork and seeing the Demon and the New Gods shoehorned into stories, in which case knock yourself out.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I like me my flying Wonder Woman, a demigoddess who reigns in the skies like a swalow.

[Apathy Boy]

I never understood the jet thing. She's a very mythologically based hero, then she has a jet. It doesn't really work that well.Back in the days when she had a secret identity, Diana worked in the military. So from that perspective, the jet kind of fits.

I like a Wonder Woman who can't fly but has an invisible jet. That's how everyone remembers her.

[PatrickG]

Having Wonder Woman fly is like having flying Terminators, flying Buffy the Vampire Slayer or flying Batman.

IMO, we're stuck with Wonder Woman as a powerhouse and stuck with a WW who doesn't even have a secret identity. But we'd be better off with a WW who walks among humanity, not above it... and who operates on more of a highly skilled Batman or Captain America level.

She has bullet proof bracelets. She can move fast enough to deflect bullets with them. Giving her invulnerability makes the bracelets moot.

Making her a warrior who will potentially kill any enemy she faces makes the lasso moot.

Having her fly makes the plane moot.

I want a more street level, action hero Wonder Woman. And I'd really dig it if they restored her lasso's ability to change her clothes and create disguises.

[dancj]

She has bullet proof bracelets. She can move fast enough to deflect bullets with them. Giving her invulnerability makes the bracelets moot.

I agree with you on that point. I was really confused when I found out she was super-tough after I'd seen her using the bracelets.

All of the other changes are fine by me, but I'd downscale her strength and invulnerability, and possibly up her agility to compensate

[Gargus]

I dont know I liked the jet. From the WW I knew from along time ago vs the one I know now she is like a female version of superman. I liked it when she couldnt fly, didnt have incredibly strength and so on. She was more interesting when she wasnt so powerfull and I liked the semi greek style background she had.

It just feels like her flying is tacked on or something, like they cant be bothered to figure out different ways for her to face a being of greater strength so they just have her duke it out. Like her bracelettes used to be able to deflect bullets and she did that alot, now they just bounce off her and only time I see her using the bracelettes is on cover art.

Maybe its just me though as like I said I got into DC late in the game.

[seaflower]

I believe Wonder Woman should keep the jet in order to use it for cargo and passengers but I hate the idea of taking away her ability to fly, downsizing her strength and invulnerability. There are very few female characters that can believeably stand with the Big Boys in DC comic today. Making her weaker would take away her ability to be the tough as nail peace adovcate who never gives up.

If you want her to be more distinct from Superman, DC could play up the more magical side of her powers, talking to animals and how her bracelets can be used against her and possiblity returning her secret identity. Actually I do think they will return her secret identity esp now that her entire world is gone and she has no where else to go but live in man's world where there are some people who no longer trust her.

I understand that many comic book fans are older and were around during the golden/silver age of comics and like seeing the characters presented as they were But I think that some people need to lighten up on the whole "that is how everyone remembers her"

No not everyone thinks of her like that, new generation, new times.

This is the iron age......

[DDM]

Hermes gave Diana the gift of flight before she was reborn in Wonder Woman #1 (1987).

[Xero Kaiser]

That jet was retarded.

And if she's super-strong why does she need a jet to carry cargo and passengers?

[protonik]

From what I've heard, I think it would be best if we just ignored John Byrne's run on WW.

Byrne's run is under rated. The first 4 issues were weak but after that he kicked into high gear and a LOT of the stuff he set up became very key to not only Wonder Woman but also Titans and JSA like Wonder Girl and Hypolyta as Wonder Woman. Of all the runs SINCE Perez, I would say that as far as impact on the DCU, JB's is the most important.

Jason

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I believe Wonder Woman should keep the jet in order to use it for cargo and passengers but I hate the idea of taking away her ability to fly, downsizing her strength and invulnerability. There are very few female characters that can believeable stand with the Big Boys in DC comic today. Making her weaker would take away her ability to be the tough as nail peace adovcate who never gives up.

If you want her to be more distinct from Superman, DC could play up the more magical side of her powers, talking to animals and how her bracelets can be used against her and possiblity returning her secret identity. Actually I do think they will return her secret identity esp now that her entire world is gone and she has no where else to go but live in man's world where there are some people who no longer trust her.

I understand that many comic book fans are older and were around during the golden/silver age of comics and like seeing the characters presented as they were But I think that some people need to lighten up on the whole "that is how everyone remembers her"

No not everyone thinks of her like that, new generation, new times.

This is the iron age......

Quoted for agreement.

I´ve always known Diana as a flier (or wind glider if you prefer).
In fact something that bugged me immenselly was discovering that she couldn´t fly in the Linda Carter series (those jumps she used for locomotion looked dumb even for a 10 years old).


I dont mind the jet-buble morphing thing as it was reinvented and I could see it used as her new fortress of solitude, now that she´s homeless...

[Citizen V]

Personally..i dont really like the idea of Wonder Woman flying.I think it was Pre-Crisis that Wonder Woman had The Invisible Jet at her disposal.While watching JLU,she did seem out of place to me whenever she was flying with the heros like Martian Manhunter,Hawkgirl or Superman.

[CoreyB]

I think I like her being more powerful. I think that's why I liked Namorita of the New Warriors over at Marvel. She was tough enough (eventually) to slug it out with other male heavies. That's so refreshing.

I admit that I didn't know she could fly until relatively recently, but now I'm used to it and don't mind it. I kind of like it, actually. The invisible jet always looked goofy. "Look, I'm in an invisible jet! Yet, you can see me sitting in it as I'm soaring through the skies." What's so invisible about that? We can still see her. Worst. Stealth. Plane. Ever.

[seaflower]

I think I like her being more powerful. I think that's why I liked Namorita of the New Warriors over at Marvel. She was tough enough (eventually) to slug it out with other male heavies. That's so refreshing.

I admit that I didn't know she could fly until relatively recently, but now I'm used to it and don't mind it. I kind of like it, actually. The invisible jet always looked goofy. "Look, I'm in an invisible jet! Yet, you can see me sitting in it as I'm soaring through the skies." What's so invisible about that? We can still see her. Worst. Stealth. Plane. Ever.

Yes, I love the fact that she can stand on her own with the big boys.
I loved JLA: League of One.

[DDM]

Personally..i dont really like the idea of Wonder Woman flying.I think it was Pre-Crisis that Wonder Woman had The Invisible Jet at her disposal.While watching JLU,she did seem out of place to me whenever she was flying with the heros like Martian Manhunter,Hawkgirl or Superman.

The pre-Crisis Earth-2 Wonder Woman could not fly of her own power; this is where the Invisible Jet came from.

[shyguy]

And if she's super-strong why does she need a jet to carry cargo and passengers?

Well, she's super-strong; she doesn't have a million hands. Plus it's helpful for transporting people who can't fly as fast as the plane (Cassie) or for when her friends need to go somewhere without her (Trevor Barnes used the plane a lot in Walt Simonson's run).

I'm a big advocate of a de-powered Wondy, too. This "second only to Superman" nonsense just restricts the character and glosses over all of the things that make her unique. Wonder Woman should be able to go toe-to-toe with the most powerful threats in the universe even though she's not as powerful as Superman, just like Batman can give Superman a hard time when he uses his unique talents and abilities.

Given the state that Wondy is in now, a return to a secret ID seems almost inevitable. I wouldn't mind seeing her powers getting tinkered with as well (just blame it on the gods being gone). After all, even a depowered Wondy is really, really strong, really, really fast, and if you like, able to glide on air currents.

Plus, when she's not as uber-powerful as she is now it gives writers a chance to play up her unique tools - the lasso, the bracelets, the planet, the purple ray, etc..

[Ultraman Max]

My brother in law, who's largely a fan of superheroes in their other-media incarnations and not an avid (or frequent) comic book fan, absolutely refuses to accept the Justice League cartoons based largely on two premises. The first being that the guy with the hook and beard isn't Aquaman and the 2nd is that Wonder Woman doesn't fly as far as he's concerned. She didn't fly in the superfriends, she didn't fly in her old tv series thus he doesn't get why (or like that) she's flying now. Heh, his and my sister's reaction to Diana not having a secret identity anymore wasn't all that positive either along the lines of a "they've always got to screw with things" reply. So tinkering with an established product, so to speak, can effect it's popularity on some levels, so I don't think it's an unfounded fear at all.

Me, I actually like the notion of her being able to fly, due to it fitting with the mythology angle. I like the Invisible Jet too, just for it's sheer quirkyness.

[ednemo]

I like the way Wonder Woman is currently written. And I refused to read anything with WW back when she had the invisible jet (possibly the most ridiculous concept ever), or walking around using a secret identity. I prefer her as a UN Ambassador helping the world and acting as a positive female role model for girls.

[frankiedetroit]

Put me in the category who also favors Wonder Woman being able to fly on her own. Invisible Jet can be used, but only if she's invisible inside it. The Super Friends visual always struck me so odd. I like WW being as strong as she is and I'm not a fan of secret identities, especially if she has to pretend she's meek and weak. I liked them when I was reading Spider-Man in the '70s. Not so much as an adult.

[seaflower]

What is the problem with having a woman as a powerhouse?

Really?

There isn't anything wrong with her powers.
And if you want her to be more distinct, DC can do more stories about her magic based abilities.

I think more attention should be spent trying to give her more of a background base and maybe just maybe a love interest. I would love her to have an interesting support network that both Batman and Superman have. Plus I think her book stands out from the other two, since it has a slight political slant and socially progressive. I think stories that combind her abilities to handle superpower villian while trying to help to work with humans on a government level is very cool. Though....I am guessing her ability to work with world governments is going to end...sadly...

[Ontir]

Wonder Woman always was a powerhouse character. The problem was, that after Crisis, they tried to turn her into Superman, and it didn't work. While Perez was on the book, the sales were good, and they've gone up and down, depending on whom was writing and drawing, but with the increased mythological basis, she still didn't really work. One of the other things working against her, is that the costume is directly tied to World War II, and that's been excised from the Earth 2 origin.

The strength of the invisible jet (originally, invisible plane), is that is shows the development of the Amazons. They weren't just kicking back peeling grapes for 3,000 years, they were a vibrant, thriving, and progressive society. Removing that from the book weakens it from the foundation. Many people complain that the jet is silly, but I maintain that it's the un-updated graphic representation that is the problem, and not the basic concept. Especially now, as stealth technology is advancing, it makes more sense than ever that a race that's done nothing but explore the boundries of science for millenia, would be a bit further ahead.

Combining this aspect with her physical strength, agility, and endurance, puts her on equal footing with both Superman and Batman, and I believe, does far more to legitimise her place in DC's Trinity.

[PatrickG]

What is the problem with having a woman as a powerhouse?

Really?

There isn't anything wrong with her powers.
And if you want her to be more distinct, DC can do more stories about her magic based abilities.

I think more attention should be spent trying to give her more of a background base and maybe just maybe a love interest. I would love her to have an interesting support network that both Batman and Superman have. Plus I think her book stands out from the other two, since it has a slight political slant and socially progressive. I think stories that combind her abilities to handle superpower villian while trying to help to work with humans on a government level is very cool. Though....I am guessing her ability to work with world governments is going to end...sadly...


Nothing wrong with her being a powerhouse.

I'm all for Supergirl being more powerful than Superman.

But the appeal of WW, for me, is that she's this street level, hands-on, ambassador type.

Making her the powerhouse as opposed to a more Batman/Captain America-level character takes away what I find cool about her.

[shyguy]

What is the problem with having a woman as a powerhouse?

No problem with that at all. That's why we have Supergirl. And Powergirl. And Mary Marvel. And why we used to have Maxima. You can be a powerhouse without being as powerful as Superman (and again, that's why we have Supergirl), and Wonder Woman stories (about social issues and empowerment) work better if she's not that powerful.

And if you want her to be more distinct, DC can do more stories about her magic based abilities.

Why? Wonder Woman is supposed to be about socially progressive stories and themes. She's not Thor or Dr. Fate. Plus, Superman and Batman have magically based stories all the time, so I'm not sure how that would set her apart.

[CoreyB]

Wonder Woman always was a powerhouse character. The problem was, that after Crisis, they tried to turn her into Superman, and it didn't work. While Perez was on the book, the sales were good, and they've gone up and down, depending on whom was writing and drawing, but with the increased mythological basis, she still didn't really work. One of the other things working against her, is that the costume is directly tied to World War II, and that's been excised from the Earth 2 origin.

The strength of the invisible jet (originally, invisible plane), is that is shows the development of the Amazons. They weren't just kicking back peeling grapes for 3,000 years, they were a vibrant, thriving, and progressive society. Removing that from the book weakens it from the foundation. Many people complain that the jet is silly, but I maintain that it's the un-updated graphic representation that is the problem, and not the basic concept. Especially now, as stealth technology is advancing, it makes more sense than ever that a race that's done nothing but explore the boundries of science for millenia, would be a bit further ahead.

Combining this aspect with her physical strength, agility, and endurance, puts her on equal footing with both Superman and Batman, and I believe, does far more to legitimise her place in DC's Trinity.

As I understand it, Wonder Woman never tore up the sales charts, except maybe in the 50s.

[shyguy]

As I understand it, Wonder Woman never tore up the sales charts, except maybe in the 50s.

Wonder Woman was a huge seller in the 40's; she warranted her own title as well as appearing in Sensation Comics.

She's just been going downhill since then. Partially because it's hard for female heroes to find an audience at all, partly because she's such a bizarre character that nobody except her creator has been able to write her to her full potential, and partly because her stories have just sucked a lot of the time.

[trickster]

That jet was retarded.

And if she's super-strong why does she need a jet to carry cargo and passengers?

Yeah, she would have looked silly, like her sitting on an invisible can or something.

[Gargus]

I believe Wonder Woman should keep the jet in order to use it for cargo and passengers but I hate the idea of taking away her ability to fly, downsizing her strength and invulnerability. There are very few female characters that can believeably stand with the Big Boys in DC comic today. Making her weaker would take away her ability to be the tough as nail peace adovcate who never gives up.

If you want her to be more distinct from Superman, DC could play up the more magical side of her powers, talking to animals and how her bracelets can be used against her and possiblity returning her secret identity. Actually I do think they will return her secret identity esp now that her entire world is gone and she has no where else to go but live in man's world where there are some people who no longer trust her.

I understand that many comic book fans are older and were around during the golden/silver age of comics and like seeing the characters presented as they were But I think that some people need to lighten up on the whole "that is how everyone remembers her"

No not everyone thinks of her like that, new generation, new times.

This is the iron age......

Has nothing to do with remembering her the way she was, it has to do with there are more than enough slugfest type charcters. Personally I think it would be cooler if she could stand up against heavy hitters by being faster, smarter, more agile or more tactical. Id rather see her little more of a individual and not another clone, not flying or being super strong or standup up to a punch from superman would mean she would have to use other talents. I mean why use her other abilities to take out a guy when she can just knock em out?

I gather your a woman and want equality and all that from the sense of your post but this is a comic not a womans rights movement and no one says she shouldnt be able to stand up to darkseid blow for blow. But I think its a matter of most people (including me) want to see WONDER woman and not a grown up version of power girl or super girl. Depower her and make her more interesting, trading shots on the whole is boring when the charcter has so much more in their aresenal. No offense by the way intended.

Why out of all the DC universe charcters I always liked the ones most who different than your standard comic charcter like green lantern has super powers but he is just a man. Or the ultimate example, batman. Batman is a badass because he isnt super strong or can fly so he has to fallback on his brain and that makes him cool because one shot from shazam or superman would squash him to paste but he could beat them without using brute strength and thats also why I originally liked wonder woman.

[trickster]

For all those who say that her being powerful is bad: without powers she'd be more fit for fashion shows or adult magazines than superheroing, or she'd just be a mythological Huntress. Where's the point in that? Maybe not even that anymore, now that the gods are gone and Themyscira is gone too. I like that she can go to toe with Superman, like she did in "Paradise Lost" in the JLU cartoon, or in "Sacrifice".

[CoreyB]

I will admit that the bracelets are kind of silly if bullets can just bounce off her skin. And her bracelets are such an iconic part of her. So I can see bringing down the invulnerability for that.

[Syphre Zero]

Greg Rucka touched on a few of these points on the DC panel at WizardWorld Boston back at the beginning of October (glad I made it to at least one). If I recall correctly, he said one of the greatest challenges (and greatest attraction for him) to tackling Diana's writing duties was that he would be working with a character he felt had been systematically short-changed for most of her existence. Wonder Woman's autonomy as a character was limited by her very definition: she was almost as strong as Superman, almost as fast as Superman, almost as smart as Superman, etc. He used this platform to describe the need for strong female archetypes in the DCU. I, for one, agreed with him - I was inspired enough to add Wonder Woman to my pull list the very next week.

As a cornerstone of the Big Three, I think Wonder Woman is obligated to be the strongest female character on the field; Kara may be able to out bench-press her, but she still looks to Diana for inspiration and example. I think she's earned the heightened powers, they complement her as a whole.

[shyguy]

For all those who say that her being powerful is bad: without powers she'd be more fit for fashion shows or adult magazines than superheroing, or she'd just be a mythological Huntress. Where's the point in that?

No one's saying that she shouldn't have powers (although I wouldn't necessarily mind that), people are saying that she should be a more mid-level hero (like Spider-Man).

As a cornerstone of the Big Three, I think Wonder Woman is obligated to be the strongest female character on the field; Kara may be able to out bench-press her, but she still looks to Diana for inspiration and example. I think she's earned the heightened powers, they complement her as a whole.

Inspiration and example, fine; but I'm not sure how that translates to powers. Batman seems to do pretty well for himself despite being vastly less powerful than Superman. I never understand why some people think that power has to correspond to importance (I think Captain America would have a few words to say about that).

And on the contrary, I think the heightened powers take away her uniqueness and force her into a mold that the character was never supposed to inhabit. Furthermore, they impose upon her unecessary restrictions ("2nd most powerful").

[seaflower]

Yes I am a women (this is a reply to another post) and very well read in comics and their history.

My problem is that essentially I think we link heros identity with their powers a little too closely...

Personally as I have said before , I don't think there is anything wrong with her powers as is. Plus I think she does stand apart from the other hero due to the fact that her book tends to be a bit more political/socially progressive. I think that if you want to make her more unique, focus on her ideals instead of her powers. And how does it make sense for a person given power by the gods to be street- level?.The real problem with Wonder Woman is her lack of a solid identity who can't find her fit anywhere in the world, which I think is her greatest weakness and strength.

Granted, I do like the suggestion of her being smarter than she is now...she is suppose to have a beyond world class education....

I think her warrior side does make her different within the big 3, as seen from the recent event with Max Lord. As a warrior she killed to protect the world while Superman and Batman hide behind their superhero ethics. Plus unlike the other two , she will hurt her friends in order to protect them.

Since she is older than powergirl and supergirl, it would be more correct to say that they are a copy them off her.

One of the reasons why she wears the bracelets is for their symbolic value for the Amazons as a reminder of the time when they were once slaves in man's world.

Magic wise she is distinct from Superman and Batman: Her creation is more magic based than Superman and Batman.
I think the growth of magical realism in the fantasy genre has shown with some creativity, you can wrtie socially progressive stories with slight magical undertone, very slight...Plus she doesn't have their distain for magic.

One last point: Aren't most of the female centred books in DC street - level the exception being Super-girl? Well DC version of street level outside of Vertigo.
Batgirl
Catwoman
Birds of Prey
Do we really need one more street level female centred comic?

[mswood]

Have to add, I think the invisible jet, purple ray, mental radio was crap, pure unadulterated garbage.

As for her starting out in the 40's being less powerful, that is true. But so was Superman, who couldn't fly was stronger then a train but wasn't picking up mountains and certainly not pushing planets around.

By the time of the JLA versions of both characters. Wonder Women was far stronger, she would get into slugging matches with Superman and was one of the few who could. She glided on air (which was as dumb as the jet).

And when she was rebuted Perez didn't make her vastly powerful (though nearly was Superman during his reboot, that came years later). In boths first 2 years, the most I saw Superman move was a ocean linear while WW lifted a wooden frigate.

But over time (just like in both golden and silver ages) writers increased both's power levels.

To me I want her superstrong, I want her to be the female powerhouse who isn't a copy of another character Super Girl (female version of Superman), Power girl (Alternate form of supergirl), Mary Marvel (female version of Captain Marvel). In fact their isn't a real example of a female hero (of any real visability that is Super Strong. That isn't a female version of a more popular male character that I can think of.

Yeah there were minor characters like Maxima (a rather new character in comic terms) and no longer with us, if I recall.

And just because she is super strong doesn't mean she needs to be portrayed as a female superman. After all Thor isn't portrayed as Superman. And even in DC Captain Marvel or the Martian Manhunter (both exceedinly powerful beings) are portrayed quite differently then Superman.

[seaflower]

Have to add, I think the invisible jet, purple ray, mental radio was crap, pure unadulterated garbage.

As for her starting out in the 40's being less powerful, that is true. But so was Superman, who couldn't fly was stronger then a train but wasn't picking up mountains and certainly not pushing planets around.

By the time of the JLA versions of both characters. Wonder Women was far stronger, she would get into slugging matches with Superman and was one of the few who could. She glided on air (which was as dumb as the jet).

And when she was rebuted Perez didn't make her vastly powerful (though nearly was Superman during his reboot, that came years later). In boths first 2 years, the most I saw Superman move was a ocean linear while WW lifted a wooden frigate.

But over time (just like in both golden and silver ages) writers increased both's power levels.

To me I want her superstrong, I want her to be the female powerhouse who isn't a copy of another character Super Girl (female version of Superman), Power girl (Alternate form of supergirl), Mary Marvel (female version of Captain Marvel). In fact their isn't a real example of a female hero (of any real visability that is Super Strong. That isn't a female version of a more popular male character that I can think of.

Yeah there were minor characters like Maxima (a rather new character in comic terms) and no longer with us, if I recall.

And just because she is super strong doesn't mean she needs to be portrayed as a female superman. After all Thor isn't portrayed as Superman. And even in DC Captain Marvel or the Martian Manhunter (both exceedinly powerful beings) are portrayed quite differently then Superman.

Hmmmm you make an interesting point that I don't think has been mention before...

[Eliseu Gouveia]

People affraid that a superstrong WW will become too identical to Superman must stop to realise that about the only thing in common between them is the fact that they wear uniforms.

Personalities: farm boy VS greek demigoddess
Background: greek mythology VS alien refugee
Powers: sun battery VS gift from gods
and so on and so forth

Really, I´m as opposed to a female streetleveler as I can be, I already have Batgirl for that part.
And Black Canary.
And Huntress.
And...and...and...

It´s true that they upped her powers a lot since Perez´revamp, but the only thing in my opinion that should have been addressed since day one was her uniform. As a guy I´m naturally fond of some hefty doses of cheesecake but an amazonian princess fighting evil in a bathing suit?

That´s just a little bit too much.

[Captain Jim]

While generally a good rule, I heartily endorse ignoring Byrne's entire Wonder Woman run and making up stories in your head about how everything that changed during that time.

Unless you really like scratchy artwork and seeing the Demon and the New Gods shoehorned into stories, in which case knock yourself out.

I didn't care for the Demon stories but I thought some of the other stuff--like the WWII JSA stories--were fantastic.

[Captain Jim]

The pre-Crisis Earth-2 Wonder Woman could not fly of her own power

Neither could the pre-Crisis Earth-1 Wonder Woman.

[Captain Jim]

Wonder Woman always was a powerhouse character. The problem was, that after Crisis, they tried to turn her into Superman


Bingo. I agree completely.

[shyguy]

I think people need to realize that a depowered Wondy does not automatically equal street-level.

In fact, rather than becoming part of an overpopulated part of the DCU, a Diana with lessened powers would actually be filling what is something of void currently - top-tier mid-level heroes. Marvel has a lot of mid-level heroes, but they're something that DC usually lacks. Post-Crisis, the most prominent is Aquaman, but since his stories are in some way or another confined to the ocean, that means there's a lot of ground to be exploited with a surface-based mid-level hero, particularly one who has a progressive social agenda to work with.

That, by the way, is another reason I don't like Wondy as Mrs. Superman. The more powerful she is, the less likely her stories are to have anything to do with the real world and the issues she should be dealing with.

My problem is that essentially I think we link heros identity with their powers a little too closely...

I agree! That's why I don't think Wondy being an important character within the DCU should have anything to do with how powerful she is.

I didn't care for the Demon stories but I thought some of the other stuff--like the WWII JSA stories--were fantastic.

I don't know if I'd say "fantastic," but the JSA stories and Hippolyta-as-Wondy stories were by far my favorite of the Byrne run, too.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Wonder Woman always was a powerhouse character. The problem was, that after Crisis, they tried to turn her into Superman


I don´t agree, just by giving her flight doesn´t mean she´s suddenly a Superman clone.

Personality, powers, background.... nothing in there is similar.

Diana doesn´t even have a secret identity (which I kind like, since a demigoddess of truth shouldn´t hide under alias and white lies).

[seaflower]

While I do believe that huge power doesn't always equal importance...

In Wonder Women's case, I think her power add to her importance. It is just not the point of her importance.

Plus she has been regard for the last ten years as the most powerful woman on earth. It has become part of her identity.

The reason I mention street level, is because several people have mention depowering and making her more street level ....like the horrid t.v show...sigh...

I agree that DC could use more mid level heros but why the one woman of the Trinity? In order for Diana to be one of the big 3, I think she needs to be able to go toe to toe with both men. Superman/Alien, Wonder Woman/Divine Origins, Batman/Human. They each have distinct beliefs, training,behaviour, family structure, social economic background and even thought Superman and Wonder Woman have similar powers, there are powers each characters have that is distinct to themselves.

I think Wonder Woman does stand apart from Superman for several reasons, she has more confidence in herself and her mission than he does, when she went blind she fought to stay with the League, while he admitted that he would have quit. Most of the League loves her because she makes them feel loved and talks to them like she knows them. The one thing I like about her is that she lack Superman's easy dismissal for his actions and Batman's cool detachment. What makes her stand out is her personality,background and experiences while her power enhance her importance.

Why not enlarge the roles of other mid player women or create new ones. Why take away the only Top Playing Female that isn't blood related to Superman. Hell why not depower/kill Supergirl (sorry bias, was never a fan of bringing her back)

If you want a good mid level female character...

why not read Birds of Prey or Catwoman?

[tangentman]

I'm firmly in favor of a fully-powered, high-end Wonder Woman. While there were problems with the post-Crisis reboot, I still loved the upgrade to Wonder Woman's power and methods. The mythological angle and ambassador's duties set Wonder Woman apart from the scores of heroes who played the secret identity game. When Wonder Woman reappeared in 1987, she was unique in her insistence that people call her "Diana" instead of "Wonder Woman". Why move backwards by having Diana become yet another superhero?

I prefer the warrior and peace ambassador. Now, if there was a change that could be made, I would say strip the character of the political correctness that built onto her in the 80's and 90's. Wonder Woman killing Medusa and Max was in character for a product of an Amazon warrior culture.

I would also suggest playing up Diana's brilliance and charisma. Batman might have the official degrees and Superman might have the Super-Intellect, but Diana should have more insight and discipline than either man. I would love to see Diana chide Kal for not pushing against his limitations, or showing Batman the emotions behind a motive in a crime. People of the DCU should see Diana as appealing and engaging, almost to the point that Superman appears boring next to her. If they ever get into a relationship, the DCU should refer to Superman as "Mr. Wonder Woman", not the other way around. :D

I'm not threatened or put off by a powerful Wonder Woman. After all, she's the favored of the Greek Gods. They didn't welsh when creating their heroes. Wonder Woman did NOT begin as a "street-level, Batman/Captain America-type" character, not even in the 40's. DC already tried a powerless, "Kung Fu" action WW and that ultimately FLOPPED. If you want a Batman or Captain America style hero, read Batman or Captain America comics! Hell, read Catwoman, Batgirl/Batwoman, or BoP. Leave Wonder Woman to the heights of the DC hierachy. :)

[Ultraman Max]

The TV show (along with Superfriends) is where a good deal of Wonder Woman's modern pop culture awareness comes from still. If one were to look around the malls at stores like Hot Topic or Suncoast or anywhere else that carries any Wonder Woman merchandise, you'd find it's pretty much entirely composed of the seventies version of the character. Either the drawn comic/cartoon version (with the eagle not the 2 w's) or Lynda Carter.

Outside of the Cartoon Network only Justice League shows, there's been little to no push what so ever to supplant that version in the cultural consciousness. Unlike say Batman or Superman, who've had several different periods of mass popularity, though with mixed results on the latter (some of the Byrne reboot aspects are more accepted than others). Even Aquaman's had a bit of push with other media outlets, though they were largely scorned or outright rejected for featuring the hook handed version (like the skewering done on X-Play). So unless that push happens successfully there's always going to be a set of people who will look at the current version and say "Wonder Woman can't do that!".

Personally I think what the character has suffered most in the comics is that no one seems to really know what they should do with her. You have a pull between various creators all wanting to go in thier direction of choice with largely mixed results. Heavy mythology use seems to have a limited span of interest with alot of fans (just ask Thor), as do heavy handed message stories (see general reaction to Judd Winnick's work) so leaning too much one way or the other could be problematic. I think a mix of message, mythology, and sci-fi, similar to say Kirby's Thor or New Gods, could work pretty well with her.

I also don't see how the purple ray or invisible jet are any more or less silly than being a living clay statue from an unchanged island of ancient amazonian women.

[Ontir]

As I understand it, Wonder Woman never tore up the sales charts, except maybe in the 50s.

The problem is, that after World War II, they diluted the character. Many of the plots during the 50's, were all about mobsters trying to get her married, so she'd be too busy to fight crime. Definately not a high point.

With the arrival of the Justice League of America, she was moved more toward the original direction, but even that took awhile.

In the late 60's early 70's, they did an interesting re-vamp, in which she said goodbye to her costume, jet, and other impliments, and became a more "Emma Peele" type of character. Unfortunately, this didn't work out too well, after a short time.

She was returned to her costume and plane, along with all the mythology, which should have worked, but as is quite often the case with Wonder Woman, the art was incredibly uneven, going from quite good, to just horrid. In a visual medium, an ugly book doesn't sell!

While things like the Super-Friends and the New Original Wonder Woman helped out for awhile, when the shows were off the air, the interest in her generally waned, and the un-even ups and downs continued to plague her until, and then after George Perez worked on the book.

[tangentman]

What you didn't mention was that the "Emma Peele" phase also made Diana an insipid fashion victim who was either troubled by romances with shady men or overly dependent on the homilies of I Ching, her grotesquely stereotyped Chinese mentor/father-figure. Yes, he really WAS called "I Ching". :rolleyes: Diana went from independent superheroine to a novice who needed the supervision of a man to survive in the world. Hardly a liberating step for the original feminist superheroine.

[Ontir]

I glossed over it with "Unfortunately, this didn't work out too well, after a short time." The idea of I Ching, initially, was OK. Diana no longer had her powers/Amazonian skills to rely on, and needed to start anew. Maybe if I Ching had been a woman, it might've gone down better, but it started out interestingly. Within a few issues, it was just bizarre, and I found a few of the stories kind of disturbing. There was that killer-lesbians issue, which leaps first and foremost to mind! :eek:

[Ultraman Max]

The "New" Wonder Woman was also the recipiant of a huge public backlash, notably from Ms. Magazine who felt they were depowering a feminist icon. In the DC COMICS: Sixty Years of The World's Greatest Comics Denny O'Neil lists said backlash amoung the reasons the direction didn't take off.

[tangentman]

Not to mention the "Women's Lib" issue, wherein Diana tells Cathy (her sorta teen sidekick) that "she doesn't even like most women". Ugh. :rolleyes: I wanted to SLAP whoever wrote Diana in that era.

Oh yeah, Gloria Steinem HATED the Emma Peel version and demanded the return of the powers, costume, and magickal weapons.

[Ultraman Max]

I kinda liked some of the go-go outfits during that period though, in a "so bad it's good" sort of way, lol.

[tangentman]

The ONE story I enjoyed from the era was Diana's battle/team-up with Catwoman. Cool story, good "catfight", and an interesting appearance by Fafyrd and the Grey Mouser. I thought Giordano's art was well-done on the two-part story, too, especially the cover that showed Wonder Woman in a sword duel to the death with Catwoman suspended over a fiery pit!

[Zeta]

I'm all for Diana having the powers to go toe to toe with Superman.

As someone else said, the problem with the character is that nobody really has any idea what to do with her - so she keeps on bouncing around from one extreme to the other. She's a very popular icon, but as a character, and as the centerpiece of an actual story, people disagree far more on her than about any other comic character I can think of. She's essentially a memorable concept, but a blank slate. To be honest, I'm not sure what to do with her either. I only know that '70s Wonder Woman or kung-fu Wondy coming back wound be a mistake.

But anyways, I think taking her down to street-level would be a mistake. DC doesn't operate well with mid-level superheroes. In DC, to get attention you pretty much either have to be a demigod or a powerless shmuck who nevertheless triumphs with skills alone. Anything in between is generally forgotten by readers and writers.

[Ontir]

I just want to see Diana go back to basics. She can run 100 mph, is incredibly strong, has great reflexes, and stamina, still does the whole bullets and bracelets thing, and has the talking tiara, the maggic lasso, the invisible jet, the magic girdle, and the earings that create a bubble of warm air!

I'd also love to see the original fire-cracker version of Etta Candy back too! I can't believe what a frump she's become over the years.

[Zeta]

The jet really needs to go, regardless if she loses the power of flight. It's become one of the chief camp traits of the character - the one everyone makes fun of.

[The Joker]

The jet really needs to go, regardless if she loses the power of flight. It's become one of the chief camp traits of the character - the one everyone makes fun of.

I think thats really due to the way it was presented on the Lynda Carter television series. Which honestly really looked ridiculous (with a doll squating up in the air and all). I remember Lynda herself stated this as well on a documentary in one of the WW Season sets.

I personally like the old invisable jet, and it seems that Joss Whedon does too. Hopefully he can ease that camp image of the plane in the publics mind, and make it into what it should rightfully be.

Complete stealth.

[CoreyB]

Hopefully the Wonder Woman movie will recast the perception of the character in the general public's eye similar to the Superman and Batman movies.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Joss has already said movie WW will not fly, will wear something leathery like Xena and will discard the blue with white stars shorts.

[Slumber Hulk]

Those things fit the time they were printed when superheroes had a strange comical side. But I agree, the current WW is really better off without them.

[Tennoarashi]

Not to mention the "Women's Lib" issue, wherein Diana tells Cathy (her sorta teen sidekick) that "she doesn't even like most women". Ugh. :rolleyes: I wanted to SLAP whoever wrote Diana in that era.

Oh yeah, Gloria Steinem HATED the Emma Peel version and demanded the return of the powers, costume, and magickal weapons.The Sekowsky issues were amazing. Fun, fast paced heartfelt stories.

It was O'Neil's writing that killed it in relation to a purely creative and sales driven mindset.

Sekowsky wrote some of the best Silver-Age WW stories ever, in the form of Diana Prince. Plus, the all white outfits looked awesome.

[Nakir]

Greg Rucka touched on a few of these points on the DC panel at WizardWorld Boston back at the beginning of October (glad I made it to at least one). If I recall correctly, he said one of the greatest challenges (and greatest attraction for him) to tackling Diana's writing duties was that he would be working with a character he felt had been systematically short-changed for most of her existence. Wonder Woman's autonomy as a character was limited by her very definition: she was almost as strong as Superman, almost as fast as Superman, almost as smart as Superman, etc. He used this platform to describe the need for strong female archetypes in the DCU. I, for one, agreed with him - I was inspired enough to add Wonder Woman to my pull list the very next week.

As a cornerstone of the Big Three, I think Wonder Woman is obligated to be the strongest female character on the field; Kara may be able to out bench-press her, but she still looks to Diana for inspiration and example. I think she's earned the heightened powers, they complement her as a whole.


i agrre all the way how can see be one of the big three. big three means most powerful in DCU. so how can that be if she's just a over priced street thug killer.boo boo i for one won't read that. i happen to love the fact that she's as strong as superman.iand anyone who says else wise well them you didn't like kingdom come at all did you!? you couldn't if you still say take some of her powers down. to me she made the story arch.

[Nakir]

Yes I am a women (this is a reply to another post) and very well read in comics and their history.

My problem is that essentially I think we link heros identity with their powers a little too closely...

Personally as I have said before , I don't think there is anything wrong with her powers as is. Plus I think she does stand apart from the other hero due to the fact that her book tends to be a bit more political/socially progressive. I think that if you want to make her more unique, focus on her ideals instead of her powers. And how does it make sense for a person given power by the gods to be street- level?.The real problem with Wonder Woman is her lack of a solid identity who can't find her fit anywhere in the world, which I think is her greatest weakness and strength.

Granted, I do like the suggestion of her being smarter than she is now...she is suppose to have a beyond world class education....

I think her warrior side does make her different within the big 3, as seen from the recent event with Max Lord. As a warrior she killed to protect the world while Superman and Batman hide behind their superhero ethics. Plus unlike the other two , she will hurt her friends in order to protect them.

Since she is older than powergirl and supergirl, it would be more correct to say that they are a copy them off her.

One of the reasons why she wears the bracelets is for their symbolic value for the Amazons as a reminder of the time when they were once slaves in man's world.

Magic wise she is distinct from Superman and Batman: Her creation is more magic based than Superman and Batman.
I think the growth of magical realism in the fantasy genre has shown with some creativity, you can wrtie socially progressive stories with slight magical undertone, very slight...Plus she doesn't have their distain for magic.

One last point: Aren't most of the female centred books in DC street - level the exception being Super-girl? Well DC version of street level outside of Vertigo.
Batgirl
Catwoman
Birds of Prey
Do we really need one more street level female centred comic?


hear;hear; why should only the male characters be all powerful and the female just their to suport them or as eyecandy. i won't read a scaled down wonderwoman comics.was it weird seeing her fly at first well yeah. but was it weird seeing superman fly well yeah to that one to. (able to leap building with a single bound.) well why isn't evrone saying superman shouldn'y fly.wht? because he's a man that why. another thing superman when he fisrt came out wasn't impervious to damage. he could only stop small armsfire. so i say whats wrong with having a strong leading female character in comics. nothing just get use to it like we did with superman,hulk,thor,captain america,and even batman. all have been changed from thier orinally book to be made stronger in same way.with no bad fanfare;but man its so koll to see tehy are writing so and so stronger. well i'll climb off mt soapbox now. :D

[Ontir]

The jet really needs to go, regardless if she loses the power of flight. It's become one of the chief camp traits of the character - the one everyone makes fun of.

Again, it's the graphic representation of it, not the concept itself. Update the look, and it won't seem so ridiculous. For me, it's like taking Captain America's shield away, or Batman's Batarangs. In for a pence, in for a pound!

[Oggar]

Reasons the Modern Version of Wonder Woman is better
1- No Invisible Jet. Perhaps the most ill-concieved gadget in the history of comics (and that's saying alot) it should have come with built in ridicule protection. The myriad impracticality leaves anyone with half a brain appalled with the stupidity of it. How does she find? How does she read the instruments? Where would she keep it? How would she fuel it up? Why aren't people/animals constantly bumping into it? (It'd probably be surrounded by piles of dead birds)

2- No secret identity. Characters who don't wear masks shouldn't have them anyway. "Gee, that gorgeous 6' 2" woman I work with seems to disappear every time Wonder Woman shows up. But it couldn't possibly be her... I mean she'd never take off her glasses of wear her hair down." It's just a patently rediculous idea that they only let Superman get away with somehow.

She's the only iconic female character in comics. She should be able to go toe to toe with Superman. She's always been there strengthwise and with a couple off handed minor changes the woman sculpted from clay by the Greek gods has the gear and power ups explainded. The armor (bracelets and tiara) is magical and it makes her invulnrable. Not compltely disimilar to Thor in Norse mythology with his girdle and gauntlets. The flying... Hermes wears magic shoes Wonder Woman could too. I know that's not how they explain it but they should.

[Ontir]

How did Wonder Woman find her jet?

Well, she WAS telepathic, and the jet, orignially the plane, responded to her summons AND she was able to psychically sense it. It wasn't that difficult, and it was really cool. People didn't start knocking it, until they showed it in the TV show as a clear plastic plane that she sat in. That's when the "There's a beautiful brunette squatting at 20,000'..." began. Once again, update the graphic representation, and it'll work fine. After all, nobody gripes about cloaked Romulan ships.

I'm glad Whedon has said he doesn't intend Diana to fly in the new film. Show's he's got his head on straight!

[kane]

i agrre all the way how can see be one of the big three. big three means most powerful in DCU. so how can that be if she's just a over priced street thug killer.boo boo i for one won't read that. i happen to love the fact that she's as strong as superman.iand anyone who says else wise well them you didn't like kingdom come at all did you!? you couldn't if you still say take some of her powers down. to me she made the story arch.

Batman is one of the big three and he has no super powers (or is only a low level meta). But you see a Batman fan complaining about it?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The Batman and WW concepts don´t even come close to compare, one is a living creature of Myth and Magic, the other is the pinnacle of human acchievement who got where he is by sheer willpower, training and discipline.
Giving Batman superpowers would sabotage the entire concept behind Batman, which is "what an ordinary man can do when he commits to a cause".

And the fact that Joss decided not to make WW fly simply means that he watched one Linda Carter show too many.

Diana has been flying for the last 20 years and removing her flight ability and reducing her powers after such a long journey is just another way of saying "- Get back in your place, woman."

[Ontir]

Wonder Woman has, with a relatively brief exception of Perez' run, always been a character of science, as well as mythology. The Amazons were extremely advanced, although they maintained their heritage. Traditionally they've been more like Kirby's Asgard over at Marvel, than the time-lost, BC, iron/bronze age existence of the last 20 years.

Having a society of women, who've made great scientific strides over the time they've been in exile, as opposed to just sitting around, seems a much stronger, and more pro-feminist ideal. The aeroplane/jet is just a part of that legacy!

[Ultraman Max]

I remember in the run following Byrne's the plane had evolved into a roaming fortress/home called the Wonderdome which housed creatures from mythology and the like. I had thought that was a neat take on the concept at the time. Though the following creative team (Jimenez?) disposed of the dome in favor of the jet and the flying version of Paradise Island...which of course was tossed out by the creative team that followed them. Such is the curse of the character so it would seem.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I´ve always liked the Wonderdome.

I have nothing against a highly advanced amazon society, it actually makes much more sense than the moronic Paradise Island from the Linda Carter show where they´d seat eating grapes and combing their hair for centuries.

What I´m against is downgrading Diana to a female Captain America.

There are already many female streetlevelers in the DCU.

Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva, Barbara Gordon (she´ll eventually recover), the Huntress, Black Canary, etc etc.

Really POWERFUL women (in capital letters) who can stand on their own in the First League?

Males, we have bucketloads of them.
Superman.
Captain Marvel.
Black Adam.
Lobo.
Orion.
Captain Atom.
The list goes on and on.

First League females?

Powergirl.
Supergirl.

And Wonder Woman, the one character who has a distinct, independent concept, origin and storyline.

[Paul Kersey]

Really POWERFUL women (in capital letters) who can stand on their own in the First League?

Males, we have bucketloads of them.
Superman.
Captain Marvel.
Black Adam.
Lobo.
Orion.
Captain Atom.
The list goes on and on.

First League females?

Powergirl.
Supergirl.

And Wonder Woman, the one character who has a distinct, independent concept, origin and storyline.

Well when you put it like that I have to agree with you.

I was thinking that depowering her a little (not like batman but in the middle between deathstroke and superman)would make for better stories, but now I'm not so sure.

[Xero Kaiser]

Diana has been flying for the last 20 years and removing her flight ability and reducing her powers after such a long journey is just another way of saying "- Get back in your place, woman."

There is such a thing as reading too deep into something.....entirely too deep.

Do the conspiracy theories start flying anywhere else, whenever there's talk of a female character dying/changing? 0_o

[Zeta]

If they did need to give Diana a vehicle, I'd much prefer some mythical flying monster that actually relates to Greek myth. Pegasus are over-done, but if you're going to take away her flight and want something to put her on - a giant super griffin or something would be decent. At least relate it to her animal-communication skills more closely.

[seaflower]

hear;hear; why should only the male characters be all powerful and the female just their to suport them or as eyecandy. i won't read a scaled down wonderwoman comics.was it weird seeing her fly at first well yeah. but was it weird seeing superman fly well yeah to that one to. (able to leap building with a single bound.) well why isn't evrone saying superman shouldn'y fly.wht? because he's a man that why. another thing superman when he fisrt came out wasn't impervious to damage. he could only stop small armsfire. so i say whats wrong with having a strong leading female character in comics. nothing just get use to it like we did with superman,hulk,thor,captain america,and even batman. all have been changed from thier orinally book to be made stronger in same way.with no bad fanfare;but man its so koll to see tehy are writing so and so stronger. well i'll climb off mt soapbox now. :D

*Big Hug*

Thanks for the love

Smiles

[Nakir]

Batman is one of the big three and he has no super powers (or is only a low level meta). But you see a Batman fan complaining about it?


what!? low level meta!? where when did rhis happen!? batman if he wanted to and he wants to alot. take only any DCU character he wants to by himself. well i don;t know about you but i don't call that low level meta myself.how many DCU characters have tasted a fist on rye sandwich from batman!?LOW LEVEL META LOL!

[kane]

what!? low level meta!? where when did rhis happen!? batman if he wanted to and he wants to alot. take only any DCU character he wants to by himself. well i don;t know about you but i don't call that low level meta myself.how many DCU characters have tasted a fist on rye sandwich from batman!?LOW LEVEL META LOL!

sigh, i only said it, because some posters claim, that Batman has to be a metahuman, because no human can do all the things Batman can at once. Maybe they are right, but this is not the place to discuss it. I just wanted to prevent someone saying : " but Batman is a meta", therefore i used the word "or".

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There is such a thing as reading too deep into something.....entirely too deep.

Do the conspiracy theories start flying anywhere else, whenever there's talk of a female character dying/changing? 0_o

This isn´t your regular women in refrigerators issue, this is THE most recognizable female icon in comicbooks and one of the very few female superheroines who can (figurativelly speaking) sit at the table with the grownups and you want sent to the back to play with Batgirl, Black Canary, Lady Shiva and Huntress.

[Eyeswithoutaface]

Is there a reason why Wonder Woman couldn't just receive flight later? Why not explore this story wise for a bit? She's got to start somewhere. For example, she's certainly not able to fly when she won the tournament on Themyscira.

[tangentman]

Actually, numerous flashback stories of Diana's childhood/adolescence by Perez and Byrne clearly showed Diana possessing her flight power early in childhood. Even the Silver Age stories showed Diana as "Wonder Girl" gliding.

[tjarvis]

I think the reason most people are suggesting a reduction in Wonder Woman's powers is that it would make her an easier and more sympathetic character to work with.

Almost any comic writer I've ever read say that Superman is probably the hardest character to write. One of the reason's for this is that the character is so overpowered that it becomes hard to create credible threats in a shared universe, and if the character is rarely threatened, than the illusion of danger that brings about reader sympathy is lost.

Wonder Woman suffers from a similar problem in her powerset. She's at a detriment when compared to Superman though, because she only has an inconic look instead of an inconic personality. There's very little to keep a reader interested or sympathetic, which is one of the reasons her numbers have lagged for a long time.

Reducing her powers isn't a cure. And in fact, they don't even have to be reduced if the right writer comes along. It's just that a reduction in powers would help more writers get a better grip on how to handle her stories.

[tangentman]

I disagree with you; a reduction in powers only creates glaring inconsistencies with what has come before and what will follow with the next writer. Remember the mess that came with Moessner-Loebs? He reduced Wonder Woman's powers and also reduced her effectiveness as a fighter. He already played the "commoner" card by employing Diana at Taco Whiz and sending her up against mafiosos and killer robots. Do we really need to retread that ground?

If you want examples of writers who effectively wrote Diana despite her increased power level, look at Perez, Jimenez, and Rucka. Perez created character flaws that made Diana far more vulnerable than a low-level strength cap or Kryptonite; her innocence was often Diana's Achilles heel in her early dealings with the modern world. The betrayal and manipulation by other women (Myndi Mayer and Dr. Barbara Minerva) hurt Diana far more effectively than any enemy.

Jimenez showed that Diana was vulnerable through her relationships with family and friends. The devastation of the civil war on Paradise Island, followed by being asked by her sister Amazons to leave, dealt a major blow to Diana. Her frustrations with her mother's superheroics set up a long-running conflict that nearly destroyed their bond. Diana was made even more vulnerable in this run by her fears for Vanessa when her old friend was turned into the Silver Swan. Rucka has shown us that Diana's powers don't protect her from vicious media backlashes.

The problems with writing Wonder Woman don't come from her powers, they come from lazy writers who treat their responsibilities like a grunt job instead of an opportunity to expand the mythos of a rich character.

[seaflower]

On a side note:

I wonder if it is possible for Wonder Woman to get her own forum on CBR. I love talking about this character and would love a more steady forum in which fans of this character could get together and dish dirt and debate.

[tangentman]

Back in the day, CBR actually HAD a Wonder Woman forum. However, the administrators closed the board because of "low traffic". I had fun while it lasted. :(

[seaflower]

Back in the day, CBR actually HAD a Wonder Woman forum. However, the administrators closed the board because of "low traffic". I had fun while it lasted. :(

That is too bad...thanks for the info!

[Nakir]

sigh, i only said it, because some posters claim, that Batman has to be a metahuman, because no human can do all the things Batman can at once. Maybe they are right, but this is not the place to discuss it. I just wanted to prevent someone saying : " but Batman is a meta", therefore i used the word "or".


well he's not a meta human juat a well train and well prepared person. its beeen writen that once batman know about (something you are plaining makes it on to his radar)you its over.because he and lex luthor are alike in one way. they both are genius. and once they put their mind to something they don't stop. not unless you kill them. when batman get his back broke by bane. it was because he didn't know who he was dealing with. but once he did and had been healed it was over for bane. he beat him and jean paul vally fairly easy.

[AllisterH]

I disagree with you; a reduction in powers only creates glaring inconsistencies with what has come before and what will follow with the next writer. Remember the mess that came with Moessner-Loebs? He reduced Wonder Woman's powers and also reduced her effectiveness as a fighter. He already played the "commoner" card by employing Diana at Taco Whiz and sending her up against mafiosos and killer robots. Do we really need to retread that ground?

If you want examples of writers who effectively wrote Diana despite her increased power level, look at Perez, Jimenez, and Rucka. Perez created character flaws that made Diana far more vulnerable than a low-level strength cap or Kryptonite; her innocence was often Diana's Achilles heel in her early dealings with the modern world. The betrayal and manipulation by other women (Myndi Mayer and Dr. Barbara Minerva) hurt Diana far more effectively than any enemy.

Jimenez showed that Diana was vulnerable through her relationships with family and friends. The devastation of the civil war on Paradise Island, followed by being asked by her sister Amazons to leave, dealt a major blow to Diana. Her frustrations with her mother's superheroics set up a long-running conflict that nearly destroyed their bond. Diana was made even more vulnerable in this run by her fears for Vanessa when her old friend was turned into the Silver Swan. Rucka has shown us that Diana's powers don't protect her from vicious media backlashes.

The problems with writing Wonder Woman don't come from her powers, they come from lazy writers who treat their responsibilities like a grunt job instead of an opportunity to expand the mythos of a rich character.


Actually, I consider those 3 as prime examples of WHY wonder woman at that power level is not such a HOT idea.

Perez used the idea of WW's being naive to great effect, but what happens after a few years of being in Man's world. You no longer can use that against her as it makes her look stupid yet you still have the problem of writing convincing storylines where you feel WW is threatened.

With Rucka and Jimenez, you get the same problem. WW herself is too tough to write in a fight so you have to resort to the trick of attacking WW's family. That's just weak IMO as it doesn't show that WW is vulnerable. It just shows that the writers themselves are not capable of writing believeable villains to actually put Diana in danger.

Look, I'm not against powerful heroes but I wanted to see more issues where WW has to take it to the mat. Sure, she had Devastation but everyone else? Circe was dangerous as long as WW didn't see her coming but in a straight up fight, Diana cleans her clock and the Cheetah is nothing more than a warmup.

I want to read storylines where Diana is facing down her version of Thanos, The Destroyer, Kurse and the Celestials.

[shyguy]

He already played the "commoner" card by employing Diana at Taco Whiz and sending her up against mafiosos and killer robots. Do we really need to retread that ground?

Retread the ground of the best post-Crisis Wonder Woman runs and one of the best runs on the character ever? I'm pretty tempted, actually.

Also, I don't know how people are going from "she should be depowered slightly" to "Oh! So you want to make her Lady Shiva in star-spangled shorts!"

Big difference there.

[XPac]

I personally am all for WW being powered down.

DC doesn't need another Superman clone. It already has too many. It's fine for her to be superstrong and durable... but I'd ditch the superspeed. It's not like she (or any of the other non speed force DC speedblitzers) really use the speed anyways.

And though I don't mind her being able to fly... I like the Invisible jet. Silly or not, it's a part of the character's history as much as the bracelts and golden lasso (which are both arguably on the silly side too).

Heck, it was cool enough for the JLU cartoon (and that in many ways often has better characterization of the characters than the actual comics).

[Ontir]

In terms of really powerful DC women, the Legion's got several:

Laurel "Andromeda" Gand, Dawnstar, and Shikari, all of whom can travel post-light, through space, without a spacesuit.

I don't want to see Wonder Woman de-powered, but returned to her original, Amazing Amazon self. All the strength, speed, agility, stamina, telepathy, and enough of the mythological and scientific balance that made her who and what she was. That basic, original character was and remains the enduring concept. Without it, she'd not have survived all the mis-guided writers and bad art that have plagued her title for decades!

PS: I HATED the Wonder Dome!

[Tennoarashi]

The techonological aspect that was removed is sorely sorely missed by this one. Who also loved the Wonder Dome.

[shyguy]

My biggest problem with the Wonder Dome was its stupid name. If they had called it something else I'd be totally on-board with it. I liked Wondy having a hangout aside from Paradise Island.

[bfrank]

IIRC, it was her creator's intention for her to be a powerhouse like superman (remeber at the time he wasn't as powerful as he is to day)....therefor, to depower her would be a slap in the face...

[Ontir]

I think Wonder Woman has/had enough power, without adding flight to it. She was ALWAYS incredibly strong! She could ALWAYS bend steel bars, and lift huge boulders! I miss her being telepathic, but to a lesser extent, that goes for Superman too.

As for the Wonder Dome - ultimately, it's no more or less tupid than "batcave," the problem I had, was that it was this too cosmicly powerful "genie's lamp," that could turn into, or produce anything. It was just too much!

[seaflower]

I guess the one thing people on this thread can agree on...
Regardless if you love/hate her increased powers....

Wonder Woman is greatly loved!

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Depends on which Wonder Woman you´re talking about.

I don´t really care for the bondage fantasies of the original one and I cover my eyes whenever I see Linda Carter´s WW jumping to that silly-oh-my-god-it´s-hideous-sound.

For me, Perez´s take will always be the one.

[shyguy]

IIRC, it was her creator's intention for her to be a powerhouse like superman (remeber at the time he wasn't as powerful as he is to day)....therefor, to depower her would be a slap in the face...

It's not as simple as that, though. Marston never could have envisioned something like the current DCU, where all of these characters inhabit the same universe, that universe has consistent rules set up, and their interactions are so extensive that comparison among them becomes commonplace.

Remember, when Marson created Wonder Woman, superheros, for all intents and purposes, inhabitted their own universes and exhibited wildly varying powers from story-to-story because of the nature of those stories. Superman and Wonder Woman were always just as powerful as they needed to be for the story at hand; comparing them just didn't make much sense. Wonder Woman was free to exhibit her own unique talents and powers without being compared to Superman all the time; it didn't matter how powerful she was, what mattered was that she could do anything.

For that matter, look at the first Wonder Woman stories and the first Superman stories. They're completely different. Wonder Woman dealt with completely different themes than Superman did, which helps to explain her popularity. Perez' post-Crisis Wondy makes a nice read, but she's an extremely watered-down version of her original self. People complain about all of the great Superman stuff that Byrne jettisoned, but I think Wondy got an even more raw deal.

But let's face it - DC is never in a million years going to let anyone be as powerful as Superman, let alone more powerful (and before anyone brings up Supergirl, we all know that's not going to last). Wonder Woman is therefore always stuck being, at best, second-most-powerful (and usually she doesn't even get that).

So we end up defining her by what she isn't rather than by what she is. I say forget that. It actually sets a bad role for women in the DCU ("The best woman is never as strong, fast, or durable as the best man!") and makes people look at Wondy as just a defective Superman.

Rather, I'd like to see her unique traits emphasized. She has incredible tools - the magic lasso, the indestructable bracelets, the razor-sharp tiara, the invisible jet, the purple healing ray, the mental radio - and incredible powers - she can jump for miles, outrun the fastest cars, break through the strongest chains, talk to animals.

Let her be a mid-level hero (tossing cars around, outrunning cars, gliding on air currents maybe, stopping a hail of bullets flat, lassoing a hundred people at once). Comparisons to Superman wouldn't make any sense, so people will stop making them. And as the most high-profile hero DC has, she'll get her own little niche.

And Wonder Woman was actually a stronger character when she had lessened powers! The spunky and fun Golden Age Wondy (who delighted in the use of her powers) would teach this whiny puppet-of-her-immature-and-sadistic-gods Rucka-Wondy a thing or two about being a hero and a person. I'll take the Wondy who almost broke her hand giving Mongul a sock in the jaw and still fought him with everything she had over "*sob* no more mission!" Wondy any day.


As for the Wonder Dome - ultimately, it's no more or less tupid than "batcave," the problem I had, was that it was this too cosmicly powerful "genie's lamp," that could turn into, or produce anything. It was just too much!

True, that could have gotten really problematic really fast.

I think my problem with the name is that it sounds like a football stadium or something. I can't really think of a good name for a Wondy-base though... the Wonder Whereabouts?

[dancj]

I guess the one thing people on this thread can agree on...
Regardless if you love/hate her increased powers....

Wonder Woman is greatly loved!
I'm not sure I agree. She has trouble selling decent numbers and I alway get the impression that DC only plug her as much as they do because they want one of the big 3 to be a woman. In reality though there isn't a big 3 - just a big 2.

Dan

[Eliseu Gouveia]

IIRC, an agreement with the Molton family forces DC to put a WW title out every month.

Should they stop publishing her, they´ll lose their rights over the character.

[glennsim]

IIRC, an agreement with the Molton family forces DC to put a WW title out every month.

Should they stop publishing her, they´ll lose their rights over the character.

According to the "Comic Book Urban Legends" column at the Comics Should Be Good blog, that is no longer the case.

[shyguy]

I'm not sure I agree. She has trouble selling decent numbers and I alway get the impression that DC only plug her as much as they do because they want one of the big 3 to be a woman. In reality though there isn't a big 3 - just a big 2.

Dan

I agree, and I think this "Big 3" nonsense just hurts the character by placing her in direct relation and subordination to Superman and Batman.

Through most of her history, Wondy has been more at home with characters like Flash and Green Lantern (check out all those old Comics Cavalcade covers).

[bfrank]

But let's face it - DC is never in a million years going to let anyone be as powerful as Superman, let alone more powerful (and before anyone brings up Supergirl, we all know that's not going to last).

Tell that to Captain Marvel.....

Wonder Woman is therefore always stuck being, at best, second-most-powerful (and usually she doesn't even get that).

and making her 3, 4 or 50th is going to be better? I don't buy that logic....

So we end up defining her by what she isn't rather than by what she is. I say forget that. It actually sets a bad role for women in the DCU ("The best woman is never as strong, fast, or durable as the best man!") and makes people look at Wondy as just a defective Superman.

can of worms open: Isn't that life?


Rather, I'd like to see her unique traits emphasized. She has incredible tools - the magic lasso, the indestructable bracelets, the razor-sharp tiara, the invisible jet, the purple healing ray, the mental radio - and incredible powers - she can jump for miles, outrun the fastest cars, break through the strongest chains, talk to animals.

Besides the jump for miles stuff, I'm with you, she should fly, and she should use her skills, and she should be the most powerful woman in the DCU....

Let her be a mid-level hero (tossing cars around, outrunning cars, gliding on air currents maybe, stopping a hail of bullets flat, lassoing a hundred people at once). Comparisons to Superman wouldn't make any sense, so people will stop making them. And as the most high-profile hero DC has, she'll get her own little niche.

So she would be compared to hourman as opposed to superman? Depowering her would do one thing: OPen the 'fridge, and I know that's frowned upon around here....

[shyguy]

Tell that to Captain Marvel.....

Captain Marvel doesn't really interact with the rest of the DCU enough for it to be an issue, since he's not a member of the JLA and his assimilation into the DCU following Crisis hasn't really taken. And anyway, Captain Marvel isn't as powerful as Superman. Superman can do all kinds of stuff he can't.

and making her 3, 4 or 50th is going to be better? I don't buy that logic....

Taking her out of Superman's league completely discourages comparison by making it pointless and giving her her own niche rather than just competing wiht Superman. It also helps some of her villains (like the Cheetah and Giganta) make sense again (what kind of threat is Giganta to someone who can toss tanks into orbit?).

and she should be the most powerful woman in the DCU....

I especially don't see why that's necessary. Supergirl was the most powerful woman in the DCU for a long time and things seemed to work out okay. In fact, I think Supergirl works better as the most powerful woman in the DCU because she doesn't have to deal with all of the more down-to-earth themes (like empowerment and equality) that Wondy does.


So she would be compared to hourman as opposed to superman? Depowering her would do one thing: OPen the 'fridge, and I know that's frowned upon around here....

Making Wondy a mid-level hero again would autmatically make her the most high-profile hero in that range, which means that other heroes would be compared to her, just like we always compare street-level heroes to Batman and super-powerful heroes to Superman. This lets Wondy's strengths shine rather than casting her in the light of "kind of like Superman but not as good."

And I still don't understand the equating importance with power thing. Spider-Man is a lot more important to the Marvel Universe than the Silver Surfer or Thor.

[bfrank]

so you don't want her to be compaired to superman, but you do want her to be compared to mid-level hero's....you want her to be depowered so that she can be the best...am I getting that right? again, I don't buy that logic....

[glennsim]

so you don't want her to be compaired to superman, but you do want her to be compared to mid-level hero's....you want her to be depowered so that she can be the best...am I getting that right? again, I don't buy that logic....

I think it's safe to say that that character is never going to be as powerful as Superman, so there's no sense in keeping her even in the same ballpark. By reducing her powers, you put her in a different league (no pun intended) where she can, in fact, be top of her class.

So yes, by reducing her powers, you enable her to be the best.

And reducing her powers can't hurt her total value as a character, or else Batman would be the most worthless character around.

[shyguy]

Took the words right out of my mouth, glennsim!

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It´s not about being more powerful than Superman.
Everyone already knows it´ll never happen.

It´s about playing in the First League.
She´s one of the very few (and by few I´m looking at the number of fingers in my hand) women who can play in that league.

She may not be the strongest but she´s there contributing with her effort, not the biggest gun around but at least one of them.

[Ultraman Max]

I'm not sure I agree. She has trouble selling decent numbers and I alway get the impression that DC only plug her as much as they do because they want one of the big 3 to be a woman. In reality though there isn't a big 3 - just a big 2.

Dan


In terms of title sales that's correct, though in terms of recognizability and marketability she's bigger than say The Flash, or Green Lantern. Though Wonder Woman's promotion as the 3rd of DC's "Big Three" didn't really happen until the editoral change in the Seventies. The character who pretty much occupied that space prior was Robin the Boy Wonder (though he and Batman were counted as a single unseperatable franchise at the time).

[Ontir]

I could do with a little less bondage, but the original version had so much more to it than that, or the gutted/totally mythological version Potter and Perez brought in.

[Zeta]

Again, mid-level heroes don't exactly get good treatment by DC. Aquaman? Red Tornado? Blue Beetle? Booster Gold? Starting to get the picture?

[shyguy]

Again, mid-level heroes don't exactly get good treatment by DC. Aquaman? Red Tornado? Blue Beetle? Booster Gold? Starting to get the picture?

And you think Wonder Woman is treated well by DC? Bwa-ha-ha!

And even if mid-level heroes aren't currently treated well (and that seems to be changing with the new Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, not to mention Fire in Checkmate and Busiek's new Aquaman), then Wondy would be a fantastic place to start.

It´s not about being more powerful than Superman.
Everyone already knows it´ll never happen.

It´s about playing in the First League.
She´s one of the very few (and by few I´m looking at the number of fingers in my hand) women who can play in that league.

She may not be the strongest but she´s there contributing with her effort, not the biggest gun around but at least one of them.

I don't really see what we gain by Wondy being a face in the crowd when a bunch of heroes need to move the moon or something. I'd much rather have a fun and vibrant character in her own right than someone whose worth is predicated on what types of crowd scenes she winds up in during the latest mega-crossover.

[El Santo]

Hopefully, with the new run, she'll have the jet, and NOT be able to fly anymore. They increased her powers, but diluted the character greatly!

I couldn't disagree more. She was more interesting in Rucka's worst work (say, the last few issues, where he's tying up loose ends at breakneck speed since Didio yanked him off the book) than I've ever seen her in previous comics, especially the old "invisible jet, spends most of her time being tied up and losing her powers" days.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I don't really see what we gain by Wondy being a face in the crowd when a bunch of heroes need to move the moon or something. I'd much rather have a fun and vibrant character in her own right than someone whose worth is predicated on what types of crowd scenes she winds up in during the latest mega-crossover.

So she can´t be a fun and vibrant character if she´s in the First League?

She´s only fun and vibrant if she´s down in the back playing with Batgirl and Starfire?

Sorry, but I disagree.
She needs to be in the First League because she should be a force to be reckoned.

Put her in the junior league where anyone from Orion to Cyborg can beat her up and you´re doing the characer a disservice.

Taking your move the moon example, there´s only a few heroes who can effectivelly contribute.
Personally, I find it conforting that WW is among them.

[shyguy]

So she can´t be a fun and vibrant character if she´s in the First League?

She´s only fun and vibrant if she´s down in the back playing with Batgirl and Starfire?

Well, Batman seems to do pretty well playing "down in the back" with Batgirl. And Starfire's doing pretty well for herself given the popularity of the Teen Titans cartoon.

And while there have been good stories featuring an uber-powerful Wondy, I think decreased power levels facilitate the strengths of the character more (i.e. that she should be interacting with individiual people more than Superman or Supergirl do).

Put her in the junior league where anyone from Orion to Cyborg can beat her up and you´re doing the characer a disservice.

Well, see there's the problem! Who ever said anything about her getting beat up by Orion and Cyborg?

A Wondy of decreased power would still be able to take down any opponent; she'd just do it through a mix of cunning and clever utilization of her powers rather than hitting something really hard. Just like Batman is a force to be reckoned with among anyone in the DCU, so too would Wondy be able to take a comparitively little bit of power a long way and take down anyone through a combination of cunning and Amazon training.

Increased power levels give her less reason to utilize any kind of Amazon training, and since Rucka has written her to be a complete moron, she hasn't had a chance to showcase her strategy-making skills outside of, you know, blinding herself and beating up Superman.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Well, Batman seems to do pretty well playing "down in the back" with Batgirl. And Starfire's doing pretty well for herself given the popularity of the Teen Titans cartoon.

And while there have been good stories featuring an uber-powerful Wondy, I think decreased power levels facilitate the strengths of the character more (i.e. that she should be interacting with individiual people more than Superman or Supergirl do).



Totally different character concept.
Batman is just an ordinary man.
That´s where the whole strenght of the character lies, in the belief that anyone of us could be him (as far as believing that an ordinary man could master 50 phds and learn 300 different martial arts go....).
A completelly different ball game from Wonder Woman´s, a creature of myth and magic who dogfights with hipogryphs and wrestles down demigods.
Which is also a completelly different concept from Starfire, powerfull alien from Planet Love&Sex.
A stronger-than-thou Wonder Woman doesn´t mean she can´t interact with ordinary humans, the secret is finding a good writer who knows how to craft such situations.
It´s funny that for instances anime is leagues ahead in that area.
They manage to successfully pull whole setups like Ah! My Goddess! where creatures who could obliterate galaxies dwell among mere mortals.
There is drama, there is romance, there is interpersonal relations and the ocasional world-shattering threat.... and yet they do this without sacrifying their character´s abilities.
And they do it so masterfully that goddesses like Belldandy, Urd and Skuld have millions of fans (read worshippers) around the world.


Well, see there's the problem! Who ever said anything about her getting beat up by Orion and Cyborg?

A Wondy of decreased power would still be able to take down any opponent; she'd just do it through a mix of cunning and clever utilization of her powers rather than hitting something really hard. Just like Batman is a force to be reckoned with among anyone in the DCU, so too would Wondy be able to take a comparitively little bit of power a long way and take down anyone through a combination of cunning and Amazon training.

Increased power levels give her less reason to utilize any kind of Amazon training, and since Rucka has written her to be a complete moron, she hasn't had a chance to showcase her strategy-making skills outside of, you know, blinding herself and beating up Superman.

Then get a writer who treats her inteligently and makes her use her powers wisely.
Get her a decent rogues gallery, decent oponents to fight with and force her to be clever to make through the day.
Superman has Mongul and Darkseid and she has........................... Cheetah?

That´s why I absolutelly love Alan Moore´s Promethea and consider her what Wonder Woman should have been, a creature of myth and magic, beauty and brawn (well, in Sophie Bangs´ case, perhaps more magic than brawn :p ).
She should instill respect and awe when she enters the room, be it the UN security council or the Justice League watchtower.
Her own peers should acknowledge her presence and power.
After all, that´s why they call it Wonder Woman instead of Regular Girl A+ .

[bfrank]

I think it's safe to say that that character is never going to be as powerful as Superman, so there's no sense in keeping her even in the same ballpark. By reducing her powers, you put her in a different league (no pun intended) where she can, in fact, be top of her class.
again, this logic makes no sense....she can't be the best in the "big boy" department, so lets make her the best at the kiddie table, sounds, well, just stupid...

So yes, by reducing her powers, you enable her to be the best.

how? when she clearly won't be the best....save for at the kiddie table....

And reducing her powers can't hurt her total value as a character, or else Batman would be the most worthless character around.

which is why dc, gives us the uberbatgod.....

[bfrank]

I don't really see what we gain by Wondy being a face in the crowd when a bunch of heroes need to move the moon or something. I'd much rather have a fun and vibrant character in her own right than someone whose worth is predicated on what types of crowd scenes she winds up in during the latest mega-crossover.
what you want is a good writer, not a reduced wonder woman.....

[bfrank]

Well, Batman seems to do pretty well playing "down in the back" with Batgirl. And Starfire's doing pretty well for herself given the popularity of the Teen Titans cartoon.

And while there have been good stories featuring an uber-powerful Wondy, I think decreased power levels facilitate the strengths of the character more (i.e. that she should be interacting with individiual people more than Superman or Supergirl do).



Well, see there's the problem! Who ever said anything about her getting beat up by Orion and Cyborg?

A Wondy of decreased power would still be able to take down any opponent; she'd just do it through a mix of cunning and clever utilization of her powers rather than hitting something really hard. Just like Batman is a force to be reckoned with among anyone in the DCU, so too would Wondy be able to take a comparitively little bit of power a long way and take down anyone through a combination of cunning and Amazon training.

Increased power levels give her less reason to utilize any kind of Amazon training, and since Rucka has written her to be a complete moron, she hasn't had a chance to showcase her strategy-making skills outside of, you know, blinding herself and beating up Superman.

so you want her to be compared to batman as opposed to superman....what happens when these same arguements surface then? decrease her powers more....

again, it makes no sense to depower the woman......

[seaflower]

what you want is a good writer, not a reduced wonder woman.....

*Hugs*

Finally someone who sees the true problem with Wonder Woman.

[glennsim]

*Hugs*

Finally someone who sees the true problem with Wonder Woman.

Yes, but a good writer is the solution to just about every character's problems.

[glennsim]

so you want her to be compared to batman as opposed to superman....what happens when these same arguements surface then? decrease her powers more....

again, it makes no sense to depower the woman......

I always sorta thought of Wonder Woman as being somewhere between Superman and Batman. Put over-simply, Superman is powers without training, Batman is training without powers. Wonder Woman is a reasonable amount of powers and training.

[bfrank]

I always sorta thought of Wonder Woman as being somewhere between Superman and Batman. Put over-simply, Superman is powers without training, Batman is training without powers. Wonder Woman is a reasonable amount of powers and training.
as she should be...they've started top show her power levels, yet the only time we'e seen her skills were when she was blind....this can be done, with out putting her in the 'fridge.....

[bfrank]

Yes, but a good writer is the solution to just about every character's problems.
Isn't that a better solution than sending her to the kiddie table?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I always sorta thought of Wonder Woman as being somewhere between Superman and Batman. Put over-simply, Superman is powers without training, Batman is training without powers. Wonder Woman is a reasonable amount of powers and training.

Diana is not the halfway between them but the 3rd vertex of a triangle where Superman represents the ultimate power, a god trying to be a man.


Batman represents the pinnacle of human acchievement, a man trying to be a god.


And Wonder Woman represents the meeting between gods (who bestowed upon her clay form their hopes and powers) and women (who modeled her clay form and taught her the amazonian way).

[glennsim]

Isn't that a better solution than sending her to the kiddie table?

Sure. The problem is that there aren't enough good writers to go around, so wishing she would get a better writer doesn't actually accomplish anything.

The next best option is to modify the character or her surroundings, creating a more fertile environment for the storytelling, such that better stories could be generated by writers of average talent.

[glennsim]

as she should be...they've started top show her power levels, yet the only time we'e seen her skills were when she was blind....this can be done, with out putting her in the 'fridge.....

I guess I should rephrase, since you're agreeing with me :D

"Traditionally, before she became so powered-up, with strength and durability to rival Supermans, I always saw her as being..."

[bfrank]

I guess I should rephrase, since you're agreeing with me :D

"Traditionally, before she became so powered-up, with strength and durability to rival Supermans, I always saw her as being..."

even when she is "powered up", she should be as Eliseu Gouveia describes her...

[bfrank]

Sure. The problem is that there aren't enough good writers to go around, so wishing she would get a better writer doesn't actually accomplish anything.


and making her weaker does? again, this logic makes no sense

The next best option is to modify the character or her surroundings, creating a more fertile environment for the storytelling, such that better stories could be generated by writers of average talent.

that won't mean squat with out a decent writer....again, this logic makes no sense....

[glennsim]

Well, it's like this. If you told the average comic book writer to write a story about a teenager who's stuck in detention, there's not much he can do. Now tell the writer to write about a teenager who's stuck in detention, but can astral project from his body. Now you've given him something to work with. You've created a framework that is easier for the average writer to expand upon.

In my opinion, the average writer can't do anything with Wonder Woman because he can't come up with a viable threat to her. He wants to tell a story that isn't a Superman story with Wonder Woman in his place. He wants to get away from all of the mythological stuff that's been done to death. Giving him the ability to create more physical threats gives him more options.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying the story where she loses the powers is the goal. The goal is the stories that follow. The story where she loses the powers is just necessary to get there.

So the logic is, making her weaker creates more options for threats, which gives the writer more options, which can make up for his lack of imagination to begin with. The great writer could write the story about the kid in detention. But we can't plan on getting that writer.

EDIT: looking back at your post, part of the problem is that I think Wonder Woman has had plenty of "decent" writers. It's just that a "decent" writer isn't good enough to take this unweildy concept and make it really entertaining. To do that, you need a "great" writer. But we're not likely to get that. So we need to change the unweildy concept so that it can be more easily used by the next "decent" writer.

[glennsim]

Diana is not the halfway between them but the 3rd vertex of a triangle where Superman represents the ultimate power, a god trying to be a man.


Batman represents the pinnacle of human acchievement, a man trying to be a god.


And Wonder Woman represents the meeting between gods (who bestowed upon her clay form their hopes and powers) and women (who modeled her clay form and taught her the amazonian way).


Which is fine, except that she is currently so godlike that she remains a god trying to be a (wo)man, just like Superman.

She needs to be less Wonder, more Woman. At least, to fit my personal vision of how the character works best.

[shyguy]

That´s why I absolutelly love Alan Moore´s Promethea and consider her what Wonder Woman should have been, a creature of myth and magic, beauty and brawn (well, in Sophie Bangs´ case, perhaps more magic than brawn ).

Well, that's fantastic, but it sounds like you're trying to fit Wondy into a mold that she was never created to inhabit. Wonder Woman was created as a character that incorporated both magical and technological/modern world concepts. I don't have anything against Promethea, but she's not Wonder Woman.

Really, all of this mythological stuff is wasted on Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is a chance for writers to do high-concept political superheroics featuring a character with specific political goals in mind. It's fine if she fights the minotaur or whatever once in a while, but she's not Thor.


again, this logic makes no sense....she can't be the best in the "big boy" department, so lets make her the best at the kiddie table, sounds, well, just stupid...

How come we don't have umpteen million "who would win - Spider-Man or Thor?" threads? How come Spider-Man's power levels aren't dependent on Thor's? How come no one could make a serious argument that Thor is more important to the Marvel Universe than Thor is? Because they inhabit totally different spheres. That doesn't make one character worse than the other, it just acknowledges that they have different strengths and work better in certain kinds of stories.

Again, Wonder Woman's powers should really be irrelevant, since she should be able to do anything regardless of how high or low her power levels are.

what you want is a good writer, not a reduced wonder woman.....

I want both, actually. I'd settle for one or the other, and I think that the latter will lead to more writers being able to handle the character.


so you want her to be compared to batman as opposed to superman....what happens when these same arguements surface then? decrease her powers more....

again, it makes no sense to depower the woman......

Again, no. The point of making her the best in her class is that she'll be the pinnacle of her sphere. Comparisons against Batman or Superman will simply be pointless, because she'll have a niche within which she is the best (whereas now, she's second-fiddle to Superman at absolute best, and usually she doesn't even get that).

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Well, that's fantastic, but it sounds like you're trying to fit Wondy into a mold that she was never created to inhabit. Wonder Woman was created as a character that incorporated both magical and technological/modern world concepts. I don't have anything against Promethea, but she's not Wonder Woman.

I´m not trying to immerse Wonder Woman in a world of magic, just trying to show that magic and myth is part of her heritage.
Promethea oozes a sense of awe and wonder, the mere sight of her makes people stop on their tracks.
That´s how people should react in the presence of Wonder Woman, they should marvel at her, not just drool at the hot brunette in the swinsuit.



Really, all of this mythological stuff is wasted on Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is a chance for writers to do high-concept political superheroics featuring a character with specific political goals in mind. It's fine if she fights the minotaur or whatever once in a while, but she's not Thor.

Agreed, focusing too much in the mythology is a sure way to bore readers, the story should move to a sphere they can relate to.
It´s a matter of tone, magic is what sets Wonder Woman apart from other superheroes but too much magic and the connection to the readers is lost.

How come we don't have umpteen million "who would win - Spider-Man or Thor?" threads? How come Spider-Man's power levels aren't dependent on Thor's? How come no one could make a serious argument that Thor is more important to the Marvel Universe than Thor is? Because they inhabit totally different spheres. That doesn't make one character worse than the other, it just acknowledges that they have different strengths and work better in certain kinds of stories.

Instead we have milions of Spider-Man VS Wolverine threads.
Your comparison between Spider-man and Thor actually comes in handy.
Whenever Spider-man is in the presence of Thor, he knows that he´s in front of a God who could obliterate him effortlessly.
His sense of inferiority is blatant in every move he makes, every inner dialogue sentence he utters, from his defensive posture to his stuttering voice.
Is that what you want for Wonder Woman?
To be scaled down to a fragile Batgirl who, in the presence of any of the Big Boys, from Orion to Black Adam to Captain Marvel to Superman is constantly aware that this creature could obliterate her with his pinky toe?


Again, Wonder Woman's powers should really be irrelevant, since she should be able to do anything regardless of how high or low her power levels are.

No, she should have limits to her powers, otherwise we have the nonsense of pre-crisis superman juggling planets with his biceps.
But those limits shouldn´t be the same as Starfire´s, Cyborg or, god forbid, Huntress and Spoiler.


Again, no. The point of making her the best in her class is that she'll be the pinnacle of her sphere. Comparisons against Batman or Superman will simply be pointless, because she'll have a niche within which she is the best (whereas now, she's second-fiddle to Superman at absolute best, and usually she doesn't even get that).


The problem is that there is no isolated spheres, just a pyramid of powers with Superman and Orion at the top and Spoiler at the bottom.
That difference is blatant in every crossover, whenever heroes from different titles band together to thwart evil (something that happens in the DCU 3 times a week).

You downsizing her to Starfire or Batgirl levels and pairing her with Booster Gold will only works until next time she meets Lobo or Guy Gardner tries to grope her and she finds out she can´t mount much of a resistance or just trounce his face.

[bfrank]

Eliseu Gouveia, you are correct....

reducing her powers will do nopthing but change who she is compared to....why is being in 50th place better than 2nd?

again, what needs to happen is for the writer to come up with good stories....and reducing her powers is not going to help that....

[Freelyx]

Well not to butt in here, but Wonder Woman flying was the intent behind this thread originally so I'm headed back a bit.

I think she should lose the Invisible jet as that was corny even back in the 60's. I agree she should not fly however as well. The happy medium for me would be super leaps that can carry her miles at a time like the Hulk in Marvel only with a much hotter body.

Now in regards to lowing her power levels to make things easier for writers... huh? :confused:

Look regardless of a writers strength or weekness, they will have their good and bad days when working on stories. Granted WW has lost a lot of her base popularity that she held earlier on. But then one could argue that comics in general have lost popularity. Writers need a good cast and a strong plot. WW makes or breaks the book not by her power level but rather by how much we believe she is truely in trouble.

So how to fix WW? My take is do what Jeph Loeb & Jim Lee did for Batman in the Hush story. Leave the charater and his/her history alone, fix the villains. Make them more threatening, dangerous, give WW pause to think before she rushes into battle them. Whether these villains are mythological or science fiction future is irrelevant, what matters is she has to fight to save herself and we as readers have to believe she is threatened by whatever foe she comes against.

I like the blend of magic and tech for the amazons though. Hopefully they will keep both. Hopefully they will fix her rouges gallery and hopefully a writer will take her on that can give her back her glory and refresh her popularity.

The other thing that may help is if they ever get her movie made!!!

[Ontir]

If you're going to have Wonder Woman leaping miles, you might as well have her riding the air currents which Wonder Girl I did, to the point of being de facto flight.

I still say it's the exectution, not the concept. If, for example Wonder Woman were wing walking, which she always used to do, especially when lassoing someone or thing, she would be seen standing in mid-air, and would appear to be flying. Of course, she actually would be, but by means of her plane, as opposed to being innately able to fly.

When on the inside of the plane, it wouldn't be the see-through thing we've always seen, it would be a real, solid craft, with regular controls. It's only invisible on the outside. Again, as stealth tech increases in the real world, Diana's jet is more timely than ever before. I'd bring it back, as described above, and I'd ad V-ToL capabilities.

I'm also hoping that the two Wonder Women on that previewed IC cover are Earth 2 Diana, and her daughter Lyta! If so, that's what SHOULD have been done in the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths!

[glennsim]

Instead we have milions of Spider-Man VS Wolverine threads.
Your comparison between Spider-man and Thor actually comes in handy.
Whenever Spider-man is in the presence of Thor, he knows that he´s in front of a God who could obliterate him effortlessly.
His sense of inferiority is blatant in every move he makes, every inner dialogue sentence he utters, from his defensive posture to his stuttering voice.
Is that what you want for Wonder Woman?
To be scaled down to a fragile Batgirl who, in the presence of any of the Big Boys, from Orion to Black Adam to Captain Marvel to Superman is constantly aware that this creature could obliterate her with his pinky toe?


I don't know what comics you're reading, but whenever I've seen Spider-Man and Thor together, he might spend 5 minutes thinking about how cool Thor is, but then he moves on and handles things in his own way, utilizing his particular skills which, while maybe his strength isn't that of Thor and he can't fly like Thor, he still gets the job done Just As Well As Thor.

And I think saying things like "scaled down to a fragile Batgirl" is a mis-representation of my position at least. She should be superhumanly strong. She should be able to pick up a car and throw it. She just shouldn't be able to pick up a bridge and throw it.

And none of those characters could obliterate her - she's more than capable, through her training and skills, to defend herself. She just has to do it by means of dodging and martial arts, not standing still and letting them hit her.

[Zeta]

And I think saying things like "scaled down to a fragile Batgirl" is a mis-representation of my position at least. She should be superhumanly strong. She should be able to pick up a car and throw it. She just shouldn't be able to pick up a bridge and throw it.

So what? JLU Wondy in the comics?

[tangentman]

Since Wonder Woman has been shown as stronger than car-pressing/hurling since at least the late 40's, it's problematic to scale her down to a weaker power set than the last 60 years of Wonder Woman's portrayal. Her strength has at least been in the "Classic Thing" 70-80 ton range since the 1950's. I personally think that down-sizing Wonder Woman to "Spiderman" levels would insult the character, since she's spent a better part of her existence as a more powerful character. If any superheroine should lift bridges in the DCU, it should be Wonder Woman.