Wolverine #42 Vendetta Part 1 *spoilers*

[CMBMOOL]

Over the weekend I gotten this issue earlier than expected anyhow it gives us a look at some Civil War #1 parts from Wolverine Point of View, also show us briefly the other two conspirtors after Nitro. Also the ending sums us what is a funny moment to me at least.

Well what do you think ? :)

Sorry about the spoilers folks. :(

[Tony Starkz]

Who is the trio going after Nitro?

[CMBMOOL]

Who is the trio going after Nitro?


One was in Lavtaria, another was a couple in Port Washington, New York, and I think the third maybe the heroes supporting the SHR act. :)

Although you be the judge. ;)

[guy2]

Did you get She Hulk 8 too and if you did how is it?

[Young Avenger]

Can you summerize the issue please

[CMBMOOL]

Can you summerize the issue please


It shows how Wolverine learns of the Stamford incident and like I stated above it tells some part of Civil War #1 from Wolverine Point Of View, also clears up what he stated at the heroes meeting during that issue as he tell Luke Cage about what he meant. It seems like Wolverine is pissed for Nitro got away as he complained to Tony who tells him not to worry about it and let S.H.I.E.L.D handle it, but he still on his mind. He complains to Scott and Emma but they don't want anything to do with it as it will disrespect Mutant even further than before. We also get a brief appearance of two other people who are after Nitro: one from Lavataria and the other from Port Washington, New York. The third one, I'm betting is the SHR itself and it supporter Iron Man. :(

At the end of the issue we see Wolverine picking up Nitro's sense and he quote a funny about him being in the Avengers and is finally going to avenge someone. :D

That's about it.

Is that enough for you ? :)

[Haunt]

It shows how Wolverine learns of the Stamford incident and like I stated above it tells some part of Civil War #1 from Wolverine Point Of View, also clears up what he stated at the heroes meeting during that issue as he tell Luke Cage about what he meant. It seems like Wolverine is pissed for Nitro got away as he complained to Tony who tells him not to worry about it and let S.H.I.E.L.D handle it, but he still on his mind. He complains to Scott and Emma but they don't want anything to do with it as it will disrespect Mutant even further than before. We also get a brief appearance of two other people who are after Nitro: one from Lavataria and the other from Port Washington, New York. The third one, I'm betting is the SHR itself and it supporter Iron Man. :(

At the end of the issue we see Wolverine picking up Nitro's sense and he quote a funny about him being in the Avengers and is finally going to avenge someone. :D

That's about it.

Is that enough for you ? :)

why is there a Latverian going after Nitro? and are the people from Port Washington civilians?

[Tony Starkz]

Does it give any clues as to whom these mystery figures are?The dude at Latveria is Namor without a doubt.

[Young Avenger]

It shows how Wolverine learns of the Stamford incident and like I stated above it tells some part of Civil War #1 from Wolverine Point Of View, also clears up what he stated at the heroes meeting during that issue as he tell Luke Cage about what he meant. It seems like Wolverine is pissed for Nitro got away as he complained to Tony who tells him not to worry about it and let S.H.I.E.L.D handle it, but he still on his mind. He complains to Scott and Emma but they don't want anything to do with it as it will disrespect Mutant even further than before. We also get a brief appearance of two other people who are after Nitro: one from Lavataria and the other from Port Washington, New York. The third one, I'm betting is the SHR itself and it supporter Iron Man. :(

At the end of the issue we see Wolverine picking up Nitro's sense and he quote a funny about him being in the Avengers and is finally going to avenge someone. :D

That's about it.

Is that enough for you ? :)

Thanx for the summary.

It feels wrong that Wolverine is the only one who cares about bringing in Nitro. Are all the heroes to caught up with their own agenas and politics that they'll let the villain who killed over 900 people roam free? I don't get Cyclops and Emma's view. How is catching a known criminal damage the image of mutants more?

[ColdFury]

Thanx for the summary.

It feels wrong that Wolverine is the only one who cares about bringing in Nitro. Are all the heroes to caught up with their own agenas and politics that they'll let the villain who killed over 900 people roam free? I don't get Cyclops and Emma's view. How is catching a known criminal damage the image of mutants more?

In the court of public opinion that finds super heroes at fault for the murders committedy by a super villian, touching that mess is just bound to stir up more bees than honey at this point, I'd say.

[ddqfpluskick]

Well...

1. The Feds are probably hot on his trail
2. Emma is always taking the if it affects Mutants views. Keep in mind she wanted to kill Wanda cause if the world forund out a mutant killed the Avengers it who cause anti-mutant views to rise. Having rogue mutant posse would put mutants in the gov't sights more than just the O*N*E guardians.
3. Cyclops is a freaking Tool.
4. The other heroes are distracted and know bringing Nitro in will not change the publics stance.
5. Some are afraid of another disaster.

[Tancread]

Good issue, I liked the handling of Wolverine, I liked the art and enjoyed the mystery of playing who are those guys when they showed the other hunters. I haven't liked a Wolverine story in a loooooong time, but I liked this one.

[Chinchalinchin]

Hey, look, it actually acknowledged Wolverine is in, like, twenty books every month instead of trying to ignore the entire world outside his solo book.

Pretty cool. I liked it. Humberto Ramos' art was top-notch, as always.

As a Wolverine Book and a Civil War tie-in, I give it a thumbs up.

[Doom Hammer]

Good issue, I liked the handling of Wolverine, I liked the art and enjoyed the mystery of playing who are those guys when they showed the other hunters. I haven't liked a Wolverine story in a loooooong time, but I liked this one.

Well, the one is obviously Namor. The pointy nose, the ears that would be pointy if not for the panel cut-off, the fact that he's watching Namorita's film, and...uh...the fact that he's on the cover two issues from now.

[Haunt]

Well, the one is obviously Namor. The pointy nose, the ears that would be pointy if not for the panel cut-off, the fact that he's watching Namorita's film, and...uh...the fact that he's on the cover two issues from now.

since when does Namor have a pointy nose? and why would he be in Latveria?

[Doom Hammer]

since when does Namor have a pointy nose? and why would he be in Latveria?

I don't know why he's in Latveria, (I'm sure that's the mystery), but I'm sure that Ramos would draw Namor with a pointy nose. Elvish, and whatnot. Facially, he looks like Namor, or what I would expect Namor to look likw under Ramos' pencils.

Those weren't the only examples I gave...

[Haunt]

I don't know why he's in Latveria, (I'm sure that's the mystery), but I'm sure that Ramos would draw Namor with a pointy nose. Elvish, and whatnot. Facially, he looks like Namor, or what I would expect Namor to look likw under Ramos' pencils.

Those weren't the only examples I gave...

yeah, the other example you gave was that he would have pointy ears if you could actually see his ears. and him watching Namorita on television like everyone else on the planet doesn't mean much either. but i'll take your word for it that's this is Namor.

[Davidai]

Hey, look, it actually acknowledged Wolverine is in, like, twenty books every month instead of trying to ignore the entire world outside his solo book.

Pretty cool. I liked it. Humberto Ramos' art was top-notch, as always.

As a Wolverine Book and a Civil War tie-in, I give it a thumbs up.

^ I just picked this Issue up today, and I totally agree with him. ^

[Will.S]

I think Doom Hammer is right, the guy at the embassy could be Namor. If you notice the sign on the embassy is half covered and has weird symbols under it, perhaps it's an Atlantean Embassy Namor is visiting and is having dealings with Dr. Doom?

Anyway, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the isssue both by the writer and the artist. It was cool to see it in Logan's perspective from where he was during the Stamford incident up until he returns to ground zero. Humberto Ramos's art was really good as well, it looked suitably grittier than usual and worked with the story instead of hindering it. Count me in for the next few CW issues and the eventual fight between both Wolverine, Nitro and Namor.

[Ktulu]

Pretty cool. I liked it. Humberto Ramos' art was top-notch, as always.

.....eh? Did we read the same comic? (Actually I have yet to read it, I just flipped through it). But even then I found some things terrible about it:

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8238/wolverine420212yo.jpg

In the bottom pane, Emma is clearly in an abusive relationship with Scott. Her jaw is all popped off to the side and her neck appears to be broken. Wolverine looks like he just popped a couple of pills, as his pupils are dialted.

[WOMAN >=O]

Pretty cool. I liked it. Humberto Ramos' art was top-notch, as always.
Humberto Ramos's art was really good as well, it looked suitably grittier than usual and worked with the story instead of hindering it.
Yeah. Humberto Ramos's art was so good they fired him and hired a retard also named Humberto Ramos with a set of colored pencils to do the artwork. Look at the picture Ktulu posted. Emma Frost in the bottom frame reminds me of:
http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/carlpavanoreborn.jpg.

Wolverine's eyes are so big I'm afraid that looking into them will take me on a different path on Indiana Jones the Ride. And Wolverine in the bottom pane looks like he just ate a lemon. Or ten. And Wolverine's secret mutant power that no one talks about must be gigantism of the hands. His fist is bigger than Scott's head. He could never wear a watch.

[Ktulu]

Ok, looking further into it I had discovered some more hilarity!

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9092/wolverine420202bj.jpg Is it just me, or does he look like a giant black penis?

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4618/wolverine420197kf.jpg It's not even a consitent black penis....

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1104/wolverine420143qv.jpg Wolverine with a smashed nose....

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6250/wolverine420084xh.jpg I'm not even sure what the hell happened here, it's like he sat down, his head got HUGE, and he became Sonic The Wolverine.

Note: I do legally own the issue, I'm just using a scan for discussion (critizing) purposes.

[WOMAN >=O]

Ok, looking further into it I had discovered some more hilarity!

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9092/wolverine420202bj.jpg Is it just me, or does he look like a giant black penis?
Yes...yes, he does.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4618/wolverine420197kf.jpg It's not even a consitent black penis....
A black penis WITH MAN BOOBS

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1104/wolverine420143qv.jpg Wolverine with a smashed nose....
Have you ever seen a Chimpanzee make that face at a zoo? Because I sure have.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6250/wolverine420084xh.jpg I'm not even sure what the hell happened here, it's like he sat down, his head got HUGE, and he became Sonic The Wolverine.
And his neck disappeared! He clearly has a huge neck as seen here: http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9372/neck9lq.png

[Chinchalinchin]

I guess Humberto Ramos' art is more of an acquired taste.

Or maybe you guys are in the minority?

I opt for the latter.

I stand by my opinion that Ramos' art is incredible.

[Jkid099]

Very good issue. Art was iffy though, but I can live with it.

[mandog]

I dug the issue. The art was really iffy in parts but for the most part it was good.

[Ktulu]

I guess Humberto Ramos' art is more of an acquired taste.

Or maybe you guys are in the minority?

I opt for the latter.

I stand by my opinion that Ramos' art is incredible.

Since when was liking good art a minority? :( Seriously, this issue made me laugh more than Liefeld has.

[20yrslater]

Ramos has always drawn very exaggerated faces and expressions. Check out that vampire series he did (Crimson something or other), lots of jutting jaws and crooked necks! I for one like his style, and think it brings something to the narrative. I mean, if we're going to be picky on Emma's jaw or the length of Wolvie's neck, let's dicsuss how often Logan is drawn with 4' long claws, or a how often a women's clothes or features defy the laws of phsyics!

I think it's cool that everyone has their own opinions about artists and thier styles, but when you start nit-picking on one artist because he took artistic license with someone's neck, that's going a bit overborad, IMHO. And, please, Ramos is WAY better than Liefeld! :D :p

[Ktulu]

I do poke fun at when Wolverine has claws longer than his arm length, and uhhhh I have no problem with the uhhh female proportions when exaggerated..........

But with Ramos, every character had a different neck length in every panel. Anyways, I'm done critizing this issue. Hopefully Wolverine 43 has more comedy gold. :)


(Is that vampire series called simply "Crimson"?)

[20yrslater]

I do poke fun at when Wolverine has claws longer than his arm length, and uhhhh I have no problem with the uhhh female proportions when exaggerated..........

But with Ramos, every character had a different neck length in every panel. Anyways, I'm done critizing this issue. Hopefully Wolverine 43 has more comedy gold. :)


(Is that vampire series called simply "Crimson"?)

I think the series was called "Crimosn", but in the TPB's it's broken into Crimson: Loyalty & Loss, Crimson: Heaven & Earth, Crimson: Earth Angel, and Crimson: Redemption.

I read the TPBs, and thought it was a very cool sereis. Um, sorry for hijacking the thread...

[Haunt]

the art reminds me of the stuff that killed the last New Warriors series. :(

[Super Sonic]

I think it's an aquired taste, I loved it, all that misproportion thing......I like it, I love that over the top weird style, dunno why, it just appeals to me. xD

[Will.S]

Yeah. Humberto Ramos's art was so good they fired him and hired a retard also named Humberto Ramos with a set of colored pencils to do the artwork. Look at the picture Ktulu posted. Emma Frost in the bottom frame reminds me of:
http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/carlpavanoreborn.jpg.

Wolverine's eyes are so big I'm afraid that looking into them will take me on a different path on Indiana Jones the Ride. And Wolverine in the bottom pane looks like he just ate a lemon. Or ten. And Wolverine's secret mutant power that no one talks about must be gigantism of the hands. His fist is bigger than Scott's head. He could never wear a watch.
Eh look, that's just the way his style is and I've seen alot worse than what's in here. Normally I'm not a huge fan of his Marvel art (although it looked terrific in Revelations and in Crimson) but I honestly thought he put in a good effort since it doesn't look overly goofy in the facial expressions and he plays is straight despite the proportions.

Personally I despise Angel Medina's style in Sensational and find that to be far far worse an offender. Plus the inker in the issue tightens it up a bit (Cuervas I think the name is).

[StoneGold]

Yes...yes, he does.


A black penis WITH MAN BOOBS


Have you ever seen a Chimpanzee make that face at a zoo? Because I sure have.


And his neck disappeared! He clearly has a huge neck as seen here: http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9372/neck9lq.png
Yeah, and you can do the same stuff with Kirby's artwork.

http://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/media/15galactus.gif

Check it out, his arms are as long as his entire body. What a lousy artist he is.

[Ktulu]

That's the perspective of his arms being outstretched, while the Wolverine pic gives the impression that Wolverine's neck is in fact a foot long.

[StoneGold]

That's the perspective of his arms being outstretched, while the Wolverine pic gives the impression that Wolverine's neck is in fact a foot long.
So, you have the ability to percieve perception and non-literal artwork in one case, but not another?

[Ktulu]

When it looks halfway decent, yes. But it's not even the perspective in the Wolverine pic, it literally looks like his neck is a foot long.

[StoneGold]

When it looks halfway decent, yes. But it's not even the perspective in the Wolverine pic, it literally looks like his neck is a foot long.
You're just proving my point for me. When you like it, you can forgive it. When you don't, you can't. But there's nothing inherintly wrong in taking things out of proportion for dramatic intent.

[Haunt]

http://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/media/15galactus.gif

Check it out, his arms are as long as his entire body. What a lousy artist he is.


wow, that is a crappy drawing. :confused:

[StoneGold]

wow, that is a crappy drawing. :confused:
The truth is, it really isn't one of Kirby's better pieces.

[Ktulu]

You're right, it's not one of Kirby's best. I had to stare at it for awhile to notice any true flaws with it. Compared to long-neck Wolverine though, it still looks far more realistic (in my opinion).

I suppose I just don't have "the taste" for Ramos.

[StoneGold]

You're right, it's not one of Kirby's best. I had to stare at it for awhile to notice any true flaws with it. Compared to long-neck Wolverine though, it still looks far more realistic (in my opinion).

I suppose I just don't have "the taste" for Ramos.
And there's nothing wrong with that. The only thing I was taking issue with was your need to qualify your dislike of of the art as somehow objectively bad because it was stylistic.

Truth is, it's not exactly my cup of tea either. But not because he draws long necks.

[Ktulu]

I just found the long neck pic to be a hilarious example :/ (among the black penis, domestically abused Emma, no-nose Wolverine....) Ok I'll stop until I actually read the issue.

[Conn Seanery]

To be fair tho', you seem to be comparing finished work with a sketch. Finished work implies that it's gone through various stages to get to where the drawing is "perfect" (ready for sale). A sketch is a sketch, not much room for correction on that (I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that was something Kirby scribbled on the spot and gave away).

And that wasn't even the only long necked person we saw in that issue. The art is supposed to draw you into the story, not repulse you. Those long-arsed necks are damn well distracting to me, personally. I see no reason why someone can't use that to qualify their opinion of bad comicbook artwork (among other reasons, if one truly dislikes Ramos' work). Dramatic intent? Please.

[Ktulu]

I FINALLY read the issue. The story itself was well-written, and had some rather funny parts. Ties in really well with the whole Civil War event.

The artwork was... well, you know. While it is gritty, which I do like, the misproportions and inconsitancy completely detract from it. Some may sugarcoat it as "stylized" but I'm gonna call it terrible.

[Will.S]

To be fair tho', you seem to be comparing finished work with a sketch. Finished work implies that it's gone through various stages to get to where the drawing is "perfect" (ready for sale). A sketch is a sketch, not much room for correction on that (I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that was something Kirby scribbled on the spot and gave away).

And that wasn't even the only long necked person we saw in that issue. The art is supposed to draw you into the story, not repulse you. Those long-arsed necks are damn well distracting to me, personally. I see no reason why someone can't use that to qualify their opinion of bad comicbook artwork (among other reasons, if one truly dislikes Ramos' work). Dramatic intent? Please.
Well it could be worse.....like Greg Titus worse.

[Ktulu]

Well it could be worse.....like Greg Titus worse.

Now there's something I can agree with.

[Doom Hammer]

yeah, the other example you gave was that he would have pointy ears if you could actually see his ears.

Yoo could see his ears, just not the tops of them. The way they were curving, though, looked like they would end in a point. The tops of his ears are hidden in a perculiar manner.

and him watching Namorita on television like everyone else on the planet doesn't mean much either.

"The images are disturbing."

"I know. More than anyone, I know."

Now why would he say that? Because he has to watch his relative be incinerated, perhaps? Is that why it's particularly disturbing to him? I mean, Namorita is the only New Warrior that's on every screen he watches. So I'm just curious: did you read the issue and are completely unable to pick up on these things, or is this just what you do right here?

but i'll take your word for it that's this is Namor.

Yeah, 'cuz his being on the cover two issues from now is not suggestive of anything...yep, the idea that it's Namor is surely based completely on my individual perception, and my word alone...

[Haunt]

Yoo could see his ears, just not the tops of them. The way they were curving, though, looked like they would end in a point. The tops of his ears are hidden in a perculiar manner.



"The images are disturbing."

"I know. More than anyone, I know."

Now why would he say that? Because he has to watch his relative be incinerated, perhaps? Is that why it's particularly disturbing to him? I mean, Namorita is the only New Warrior that's on every screen he watches. So I'm just curious: did you read the issue and are completely unable to pick up on these things, or is this just what you do right here?



Yeah, 'cuz his being on the cover two issues from now is not suggestive of anything...yep, the idea that it's Namor is surely based completely on my individual perception, and my word alone...

"but i'll take your word for it that it's Namor."

[Will.S]

I guess the reason why it wouldn't seem so much like Namor is because he seems a bit too calm and collected in light of Namorita's death.

Like I expected him to do something akin to jumping straight out of the water and shouting "I WILL AVENGE THE DEATH OF MY ATLANTEAN COUSIN! IMPERIOUS REX!" but then again I don't think they get tv reception down there and by him visiting dry land on some diplomatic affair and catching wind of this, it definitely makes more sense. There also aren't many visual clues since they've kept the character's identity pretty vague especially by using all the shadows and panel angles as well as masking what nation/country the embassy is from.

[Mobey Wee]

the whole "my liege, the images are-" thing does narrow it down a bit

[Sam T.]

Yesterday I was showing my friend Wolverine #42 and he was disgusted by how bad the art was. I tend to agree with him, but I don't mind the writer.

[TheUltimateMike]

I liked the story and I thought the art was good, but I did stop and look at that panel with Cyclops and Emma and say " what the ?"

[Crimson]

I really enjoyed this story. I like Wolverine but he just doesn't work leading huge crossovers (Like House of M)... heres he's showing his side and now is going off to do what he wants and crack alot of heads along the way.

This works so much better, I'm sure I'll love the whole arc if it keeps up this way.

I liked the art too, I didn't like him on Spider-Man but Wolverine is perfect for him.

[lordlad]

i like the art,.....it's a different kind of style....that i will describe it as 'action cartoony'...kinda like those saturday morning cartoons.

[Sam T.]

Ugghh... can't wait until he is off this book...

[Linguini]

maybe he read this thread and resigned his post

[SpecialAgentPunk]

Ay, the artwork is convincing me to stay away from Wolverine right now. I'll just read your spoilers, thanks. Spider-man's title should be sufficient for the Civil War world.

[Mr.Musgrave]

You're just proving my point for me. When you like it, you can forgive it. When you don't, you can't. But there's nothing inherintly wrong in taking things out of proportion for dramatic intent.


How exactly is the straight on shot of Wolverine's extended neck meant to express dramatic intent? Is he looking up really hard or something?

Also, the reason Galactus's arms seem long is that they are foreshortened. For the non-artists in the group I give the definition:

fore·short·en Pronunciation (fôr-shôrtn, fr-)
tr.v. fore·short·ened, fore·short·en·ing, fore·short·ens
1. To shorten the lines of (an object) in a drawing or other representation so as to produce an illusion of projection or extension in space.
2. To reduce the length of; curtail or abridge.

There is no, I repeat, no foreshortening in a straight on head-shot (which is what the Wolverine pic is.) Ramos is using his style with these extendo-necks but artistically/mechanically and proportionatly they are completely off-base. He's not increasing drama, he's drawing in his style. There is a massive difference artistically.

[Porcelain]

It's foreshortening gone wrong.

I didn't think I'd like the art, but I did, it's representative rather than literal, kinetic and keeps the story moving with energy. Everyone has different tastes though.

Overall: It was so nice to read a Wolverine issue that actually acknowledged all the other parts of his life and sewed into them so tightly - not to mention the fact it took more than 5 minutes to read it. Loved the narrative voice (insert writer's name) gave him, gorgeous colouring too. All in all a pretty solid 4/5.

[Cowlander]

How exactly is the straight on shot of Wolverine's extended neck meant to express dramatic intent? Is he looking up really hard or something?

Also, the reason Galactus's arms seem long is that they are foreshortened. For the non-artists in the group I give the definition:

fore·short·en Pronunciation (fôr-shôrtn, fr-)
tr.v. fore·short·ened, fore·short·en·ing, fore·short·ens
1. To shorten the lines of (an object) in a drawing or other representation so as to produce an illusion of projection or extension in space.
2. To reduce the length of; curtail or abridge.

There is no, I repeat, no foreshortening in a straight on head-shot (which is what the Wolverine pic is.) Ramos is using his style with these extendo-necks but artistically/mechanically and proportionatly they are completely off-base. He's not increasing drama, he's drawing in his style. There is a massive difference artistically.
Sorry to be blunt in saying this, but youre wrong. The very definition youre posting is proving that.

Foreshortening is SHORTENING the object to demonstrate that its being viewed from a more "head on" 1-point perspective type angle. Showing that one part of the object is closer to the camera/viewer than the other end. When someone sticks their arm at the camera the arm becomes foreshortened. Gal's arms in that Kirby pic is just off anatomy pure and simple its a good drawing but its the same exageration of form and proportion that Ramos is using.

[Ravenheart]

I didn't pick this up when it originally came out but I picked it up the other day and I'm glad I did.I thought it was a pretty good start for the hunt for Nitro.Should be fun to see who gets their hands on him first.Logan or Namor?

[Alan2099]

The art style isn't for everyone, but there's no more or less wrong with it than any other artist out there. He's got his strenghts, his weaknesses, and a certains tyle that's uniquely him.

Personally I like it, but I can see how somepeople wouldn't. Still, I'm amused about how much of this topic is nothing but personal outcries about how horribley disproportionate the art is and so very little is actally being said about the story.

[Core]

I didn't think I'd like the art, but I did, it's representative rather than literal, kinetic and keeps the story moving with energy.

The kinetic feel of Ramos' art is what made me fall in love with his work when he was on the Spider-Man book with Paul Jenkins.

I'm picking up this title on the merits of the art alone.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Sorry to be blunt in saying this, but youre wrong. The very definition youre posting is proving that.

Foreshortening is SHORTENING the object to demonstrate that its being viewed from a more "head on" 1-point perspective type angle. Showing that one part of the object is closer to the camera/viewer than the other end. When someone sticks their arm at the camera the arm becomes foreshortened. Gal's arms in that Kirby pic is just off anatomy pure and simple its a good drawing but its the same exageration of form and proportion that Ramos is using.

No, I'm afraid you're entirely wrong. Entirely. And if you read the definition and understand it what you described is exactly what the definition was. And there is NO foreshortening in the Ramos picture because it's a straight-forward shot. Wolverine's head is NOT "sticking in the camera" therefor foreshortening isn't possible. It's a side view straight shot. There's no foreshortening involved at all. His neck is extended by style, not artistic technique.

But what do I know, it's not like I'm a professional illustrator or anything. Oh, wait....I am.:rolleyes:

[Cowlander]

Youre right there is no foreshortening in Ramos's pic. I wasnt talking about that.

What I was talking about was your saying that Kirbys drawing was OK because foreshortening caused the limbs to be drawn LONGER than normal for the proportions of his body. Which is the complete opposite of foreshortening and is more in line with someone using extreme perspective to give a "fish eyes" effect. Which you would normally shrink the limbs/objects as they receded in perspective, this isnt happening here. Are you sure about that definition or did they teach you something different in illo school than what I'm learning.

EDIT:

http://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/media/15galactus.gif

In the above pic Gal's arms are supposedly foreshortened right? We all see that right. He's SHORTENED the length between the different sections of the arms, along with an increase in size to show that the arms are coming at the viewer. The reason that its bad anatomy is because if you rotated his arms down to a normal side position on his body they would reach to about half way down his calf. Hence off anatomy and exagerated proportions, the exact same thing Ramos is doing.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Yes, I'm sure about the definition as I pulled it from one of my textbooks. And you're right that the anatomy is off on the Galactus pic but it's just another version of foreshortening. The hands are larger than the upper arm and shoulder giving it the illusion of his arms pointing towards the viewer. There's nothing like that in the Ramos pic. Wolverine's head is not pointing towards the viewer. The Wolvie pic is essentially a side-view mug shot. The extended neck is a stylistic choice where as Kirby was going for the illusion of Galactus reaching for the viewer. One is technique (Kirby) and one is simply style (Ramos.)

[Cowlander]

I think were arguing semantics here youre repeating what I'm saying but are somehow seeing a totally different side.

My argument and I think Stonecolds (correct me if I'm wrong) was that their both bad anatomy one is accepted as style and the other is lambasted for being evidence of the artists lack of skill and technique. Liek I said if you rotated his arms tothe side they would be about half way down his calf. We both know thats wrong, you cant say hes using foreshortening as an excuse because of the overall length of the arms. IF thats short then how long are they normally?

Basically if Ramos is guilty of being a "hack" and a terrible artist for this wierd neck things hes doing now then you should use that same criteria against all artists.

Their both affecting a style and distorting the normal proportions of the human body to something attractive to them. They should be critcized equally for doing so, as well as being equally praised for doing so. Double standards dont help anybody.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Liek I said if you rotated his arms tothe side they would be about half way down his calf.


*sigh*

No. No No No No No No No No . No. That's not how it works. Foreshortening. Foreshortening. Foreshortening. Foreshortening. Foreshortening.

His arms are drawn in a foreshortened manner. They are drawn so they appear to be reaching out towards the reader. Were they to be rotated so his arms were at his sides they would be drawn in normal proportions. Why? Because there is NO FORESHORTENING THEN. That's basic artistry. His arms aren't actually that long just because they APPEAR to be that long in the foreshortened picture. It's art theory 101.

In the Ramos pic there is no foreshortening. It's a straight shot. So Wolverine's neck is drawn at THAT ACTUAL LENGTH.

I don't know how to explain it any more simply than that. One is the technique of foreshortening (kirby) and one is style (ramos). They are not the same.

[Conn Seanery]

Can I take a stab at this? Thanks.

Putting the exact definition of foreshortening aside, I believe Cowlander is saying that, foreshortening or not, the arms on the Kirby picture suck. Therefore, if they suck, thus making the picture "bad", Kirby is just as "bad" an artist as Mr.Musgrave claims Ramos is, who is doing to necks (making them too long) what Kirby is to arms (bad foreshortening), and should be judged in the same light. Cowlander's saying that one can't shrug off Kirby's mistake as foreshortening, especially since it's not a particularly good example of it.

Even if i'm incorrect, can we agree that it's been argued enough at this point? The Kirby picture is most likely sketch, so i'm hardly surprised that there are flaws (not just poor foreshortening). Ramos' Wolverine work, published in a comic, had plenty of time for someone to step in and go "hey, those necks are looking a tad long...". Since neither is around to defend themselves, I suggest we let it drop. Some people liked the art, some didn't. C'est la vie.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Yeah, if you ignore all the facts and truth and artistic technique then yes they are the same.

I give up. You wanna walk around thinking that those two pictures are the same, go right ahead. But anyone with a lick of artistic knowledge is going to laugh you out of the room.

[Jake V]

Wow. People with "artistic knowledge" are really petty, I guess.

[Conn Seanery]

Enough. Let's keep the criticisms civil, please.