If you could make ONE Pre-crisis story canon again...

[Damo]

Just like the title says. If you could pick one Superman story (or one single "plot point", if you think it was important, but not itself a story) from the days before Crisis, and make it canon again, what would you pick? And if you can think of a way, how would you incorporate it into the New Earth?

[NotSuper]

Just like the title says. If you could pick one Superman story (or one single "plot point", if you think it was important, but not itself a story) from the days before Crisis, and make it canon again, what would you pick? And if you can think of a way, how would you incorporate it into the New Earth?
No contest. It'd be "For the Man Who Has Everything" for me. The only thing you'd really need to change is to have Superman meet Mongul earlier than he did.

[Ontir]

I think I have to go with the World's Finest's next generation sons. The evil son of Superman, and the virtuous son of Batman. Very interesting stuff, and it would be cool to see how they would fit into current continuity. Kid Superman flying back in time to alter some event, while his nemesis, Kid Batman tries desperately to thwart him.

You know, thinking about this makes me kind of wish that the aftermath of Infinite Crisis was that the multiverse had been restored, the Modern DCU being the Prime Universe, but Earth 2 existing again, with all the characters intact, the Marvel Family moved to Earth S, along with Bulleteer and Ibis, etc. the Wildstorm characters being placed into this larger continuity, along with Earth 97, the Tangent Universe, and all the other myriad possibilities out there to be explored in whatever way talented creators chose. Why not add an Earth 247 logo to the cover. As long as people know which continuity they're dealing with, and that unless it's stated that it's in the Prime Universe, it's not a part of that continuity, what would be wrong with that. It would also free up other Earth's characters to be freely re-interpreted in the Prime Universe, in new and exciting ways, just like they did in the fifties, when they created the Silver Age.

[Gernot]

Mine would be the entire story from Action Comics #500, including all of the events therein. ;)

[Kid Kyoto]

Great question, I'd go with some of the Golden Age stories where Superman was a New Deal, labor, help out the little guy hero. I have an old reprint I think of Superman 1.

In it Superman saves a man from a lynch mob, kidnapps a corrupt arms maker and forces him to fight in his own war, saves miners whose company skimped on safety gear and just fights the corrupt capitalist system.

I think a superman who did that would be must more interesting than one who punches out Mongol or fights Luthor.

[davros42]

Zod.

Restoring Zod (and I suppose as a side effect a coherent, consistant version of the Phantom Zone) would be the one pre-Crisis thing I'd want... Even more than making "For The Man Who Has Everything" explicitly canon again. (Like you said, there's very little in there that excludes it from canon, publication date more so than anything else)

[LordEd1976]

Any story that features the Kristen Wells Superwoman.

[Silvermane]

For me, it would have to be the destruction of Planet Lexor. I just read those stories and, believe it or not, they are very good. People say that Luthor lacked any depth pre-crisis, but the tragedy and pathos in these stories are quite surprising. There's even a subplot of Superman trying to deal with the guilt he feels because (he believes) his lifelong animosity with Luthor helped to destroy millions of lives. Add to that the parts where Superman actually is disappointed that Luthor is dead (or so he thought). Not to stir up a whole Byrne debate, but there is a lot to be said for a Superman/Lex Luthor relationship that has such a history. Anyway, my thoughts are all jumbled here, but if anyone else remembers this story, do you agree?

[NotSuper]

For me, it would have to be the destruction of Planet Lexor. I just read those stories and, believe it or not, they are very good. People say that Luthor lacked any depth pre-crisis, but the tragedy and pathos in these stories are quite surprising. There's even a subplot of Superman trying to deal with the guilt he feels because (he believes) his lifelong animosity with Luthor helped to destroy millions of lives. Add to that the parts where Superman actually is disappointed that Luthor is dead (or so he thought). Not to stir up a whole Byrne debate, but there is a lot to be said for a Superman/Lex Luthor relationship that has such a history. Anyway, my thoughts are all jumbled here, but if anyone else remembers this story, do you agree?
I definitely agree with what you're saying. The pre-Crisis Luthor was actually quite a complex character and the story that you mentioned is a good example of that.

[stealthwise]

Screw Infinite Crisis, I'd have the original Kal-L go out with style as in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"

[JulianPerez]

For me, it would be a toss-up between two stories: the Jerry Siegel "Return to Krypton," or, as strange as it sounds, that Roy Thomas "Fortress of Solitude" special where his molecular arrangers make for Supeman a chocolate milkshake.

The first story is excellent, not just because it delivered on the promise that other stories made about Krypton, which was supposed to be an incredible world. We heard just enough to arouse curiosity - it was peeping through the keyhole at the attic door. And here was a story that opened the closet door and took us inside! Plus, it had Wayne Boring art, so what's not to like?

The reason this story should be kept in continuity is because it brings two things into Super-History: 1) the Siegel Krypton, which had a gold volcano, crystal mountains, telepathic dinosaurs, computers that arrange marriages, fire-beasts... and 2) it brings into continuity Lyra Lerrol and Superman's doomed love affair with her. The reason this is important is not just because Siegel did an incredible job with their romance (I had to hose my comic collection off after reading phrases like "Their kisses burned hotter that made the core of the planet due to explode as frigid as ice." Yowza!) because Lyra Lerrol was important in ways that outshone her appearances; she permanently affected Superman's characterization; all his loves were different because arguably the greatest love of his live ended in tragedy.

The Roy Thomas Fortress story is another, not just because it showed us Superman's amazing Fortress, but also because Roy, with his peerless gift for research, finally gave us a cohesive history of the Fortress of Solitude (even with those obscure stories where he tried to start a base at the center of the earth but was pushed off by Lava Men).

And Superman has a molecular rearranger.

That he uses to make milkshakes.

MILKSHAKES!

I thought the Interstellar Zoo was every kid's dream of the ultimate pet collection, but THIS...

For me, it would have to be the destruction of Planet Lexor.

Hear-hear! If only Cary Bates had been allowed to give the reboot treatment to ALL of the Superman characters that he was given with Luthor, then we'd be somewhere.

I was against the destruction of Lexor (because Lexor was just plain neat), however, when I saw what Bates DID with it, I was convinced. Yes, we'll never see again things like Defender, the rainbow diamonds, a planet where everybody went bald in honor of Luthor or the color-changing lizards, but it DID have something equally interesting to replace the removal of this world: it altered Lex's characterization in a WRATH OF KHAN-esque way. And it gave us that swell Perez battlesuit.

(Strange how nearly all of my personal "Oh, if only..." stories somehow involve Cary Bates; there was Bates's proposed reboot that Jeanette Khan turned down and went with Byrne's instead, the SUPERMAN V script that had Brainiac and Kandor that never got made, and Cary Bates's MOONRAKER script that was shelved in favor of someone else's treatment).

I just read those stories and, believe it or not, they are very good.

What's so hard to believe about liking a Cary Bates story with George Perez designs and Swan art..

People say that Luthor lacked any depth pre-crisis,

Whoever these people are, they need to read MIRACLE MONDAY right away. Who are these people, and how could they say such a misinformed thing? Why, Lex has a personality and motivation to rival Namor or Magneto; he is a sympathetic misanthrope, someone consumed by bitterness. In a sense, every battle Superman has with Luthor is a tragedy that fills Superman with regret.

Lex Luthor was a complicated villain come the Bronze Age. In the aforementioned MIRACLE MONDAY, Lex actually SAVES Superman from C.W. Saturn.

Anyway, my thoughts are all jumbled here, but if anyone else remembers this story, do you agree?

You betcha! Anybody that gives props to Cary Bates...

[JulianPerez]

Any story that features the Kristen Wells Superwoman.

Hear-hear!

Superwoman was an incredible space opera character and concept. That opal amulet was one cool gadget, with its dimensional, warp and dematerialization powers giving her very unique abilities. The most interesting thing was that she knew the FUTURE; she had exact knowledge; they didn't wuss out with some "records from this era are sketchy at best" phrase that after 1980 or so became the Legion of Super-Heroes mantra.

And wasn't she cute, with the freckles and all that? Most types of artists draw these hubba-hubba pinup girls, "Charlie's Angels" types that James Bond would mess around with - and you don't see me complaining, that's for sure! (Especially Lois Lane by Nick Cardy or Iris West done by Don Heck.) But I do like they didn't go the Betty and Veronica route for Kristin Wells.

MIRACLE MONDAY was what Superman was about. space travel and mindblowing science fiction. There, Kristin was unique enough she can take her place with other great Superman supporting cast members, like Vartox, Valdemar, and Lena Thorul; she's a time-traveller, and doesn't step on anyone's toes.

Zod.

Restoring Zod (and I suppose as a side effect a coherent, consistant version of the Phantom Zone) would be the one pre-Crisis thing I'd want... Even more than making "For The Man Who Has Everything" explicitly canon again. (Like you said, there's very little in there that excludes it from canon, publication date more so than anything else)

While you are right, that a coherent Phantom Zone would be excellent, I don't agree with you about Zod - if you were picking Phantom Zone inmates for your basketball team, Zod wouldn't even be in the first string. Characters with more personality and history abound in the Zone and it should be THEY who are made use of: Faora, the Martial Artist that was THE deadliest of all inmates; Nam-Ek, whose Rondor horn could heal; the "Bonnie and Clyde" of Krypton, Quex-Ul...and so forth.

Zod's sole distinction was that he was able to create a Bizarro Duplicator Ray decades before Luthor eventually did. And even by the scientific standards and sheer villainy of the inmates, this pales before say, the guy that poisoned the Great Lake of Krypton and turned everything there into sea monsters.

[NotSuper]

Wasn't Superman's Kryptonian sweetheart named Lyla and not Lyra? I was always fond of her--it's a shame she didn't exist in current continuity. I always thought it was kind of funny that if Krypton never did explode she and Kal wouldn't have gotten together anyway (she was in her twenties before he was even born). The only way they could have a relationship is through time travel.

Going back to Lexor, I'm surprised no one has pointed out the parallels between Superman and Luthor after its destruction. Both men had their respective planets destroyed.

[JulianPerez]

Wasn't Superman's Kryptonian sweetheart named Lyla and not Lyra?

Heh heh, yeah. This isn't the first time I made this mistake (actually, I think it's more like the fifth - wonder what a neurologist would say about that?). There was a "Superman's Best Girlfriend?" thread on here as well...:D

[NotSuper]

Zod's sole distinction was that he was able to create a Bizarro Duplicator Ray decades before Luthor eventually did. And even by the scientific standards and sheer villainy of the inmates, this pales before say, the guy that poisoned the Great Lake of Krypton and turned everything there into sea monsters.
Professor Va-Kox, right? He was pretty cool, wasn't he?

[NotSuper]

Heh heh, yeah. This isn't the first time I made this mistake (actually, I think it's more like the fifth - wonder what a neurologist would say about that?). There was a "Superman's Best Girlfriend?" thread on here as well...:D
I think I may have corrected you then, too. ;)

Anyway, what drew me to Lyla was that she was Superman's perfect Kryptonian mate. He could fully relate to her on every level.

[JulianPerez]

Professor Va-Kox, right? He was pretty cool, wasn't he?

Yeah, that's the guy. He poisoned the Great Krypton Lake with a vial of "Life Force" formula, creating hydralike creatures. It's a shame he never got a "solo" Phantom Zone story; he was in the crowd scenes during the Big Break of the Zone (penned by Wolfman, I think) where Jer-Em was killed, and the earlier one in ACTION COMICS #284 (1962).

Professor Va-Kox once promosed that if he was ever released, he'd create all sorts of hideous monsters all over the earth's oceans. We never got to see that, but...wow, somebody should really deliver on the story that was promised there.

Hear that, Kurt Busiek? SOMEBODY! It could be, y'know, ANYBODY...

(Incidentally, the implication meant by Va-Kox's harsh sentencing (50 solar cycles - more or less 70 Earth Years...for water poisoning?) is that Krypton as a planet was big on conservation - not surprising, considering Krypton's nature as a benevolent utopia.)

[OverMaster]

You know, this story makes me to read more Pre-Crisis Superman. It was before my age, but I've been interested about it lately. The thing is there are so few collections of that old stuff...

For instance, is the Superman in the Seventies trade good to pick up?

[GUTB]

Such a no-brainer, really.

"Superman and his Incredible Fortress of Solitude" completely captures the character. You don't get writing like this any more. Most of you should have seen this already, but for those of you who haven't, READ THIS NOW:

http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/317.html

[JulianPerez]

You know, this story makes me to read more Pre-Crisis Superman. It was before my age, but I've been interested about it lately. The thing is there are so few collections of that old stuff...

For instance, is the Superman in the Seventies trade good to pick up?

You'd better believe it! It's got the first Len Wein-written appearance by the Galactic Golem, a battle with Chemo, and several stories by Cary Bates, Elliot Maggin, and Marty Pasko.

Speaking of 70s Superman scribe Marty Pasko, while watching bootlegs of old cartoons with a friend of mine a few nights ago, we noticed Marty's name came up in the credits of TWO shows in a ROW: he wrote an episode of BLACKSTAR (which not coincidentally, was the best episode of BLACKSTAR I ever saw) and I had to whip out the pause button to note he too, had been a writer for THUNDARR THE BARBARIAN, along with Mark Evanier and Steve Gerber (!).

So it became a Marty Party, quite by accident. Heh heh!

[bannermanonemillion]

I agree that we need a Phantom Zone clearly defined once and for all. And by extension, one of the criminals trapped there be Zod.

Two for the price of one.

And on the subject of Zod, let's explain why he's so down and dirty evil. Maybe he and Jor-El were friends a long time ago to mirror the Clark/Lex connection we see in Smallville (please no HoYay! jokes folks). In the opening of Superman I, Jor-El tells the Council that Zod was once trusted as if to say that once Jor-El himself trusted Zod and when he turned out to be scum, Jor-El felt betrayed as well. And once you get Zod out of the PZ and into our world, have it so that Z realizes there's no Krypton to go apespit on but Jor-El's only son is still alive and so a little piece of Krypton, and yes, I'm drawing heavily from Superman II.

We can easily Hama (AKA ignore) both the Zod in "For Tomorrow" as well as the Cosmonaut-cum-red-armored-tyrant Zod that both left bad tastes in our mouths and worse questions in our heads.

Give us a Zod with a tie to Krypton that doesn't require a year of backreading to understand and a real backstory that explains who he is.

[NotSuper]

You know, this story makes me to read more Pre-Crisis Superman. It was before my age, but I've been interested about it lately. The thing is there are so few collections of that old stuff...
The pre-Crisis Superman was before my time as well (I'm only 21) but I became a big fan of the era after reading the stuff. If you're interested in the pre-Crisis Superman you should check out this (http://theages.superman.ws/welcome.php) site.

[Damo]

It's strange. Looking back on those old Phantom Zone stories... I'm sorry, I know he had fans, but Jax-Ur as a villain never did anything for me. I looked at him and went "yeah, we've already got one of you, he's named Luthor, and he does it better."

Paradoxically I loved what he meant to Krypton. First he's experimenting with Jewel Mountains. Jewel Mountains are cool.

More importantly, he offers some great possible explanations for things in the mythos. Why is it that someone in this advanced society was able to build a rocket to Earth, but aside from that (and occassionally shooting prisoners into space before they found the Phantom Zone...) Krypton never seemed to develop its space program? Why could Jor-El build a ship to go to earth, but nobody on Krypton had gone and made colonies on far closer planets?

Well maybe it's because back when they let scientists build stuff to fire into space, some schmuck BLEW UP ONE OF THE MOONS! The inhabited one at that! Okay, he was using an untested explosive, and trying to hit a meteor (basically to show off), and missed. Still, I can see why they'd take it as a sign to stay away from rockets. And hey, losing a whole moon is going to make your planet more unstable. Maybe unstable enough to start a chain reaction? Hmmm...

So I'd go with the "Secret of Kryptonite Six". The whole "Gem Kryptonite" ruse... I'm one of those people that likes Kryptonite to just be green and deadly, so having a story where the new Kryptonite turns out to be a fake is fine by me. And it not only features Jax-Ur (you wouldn't necessarily need all his previous stories for this one to work with a little tweaking), but a bunch of other Phantom Zone criminals, opening the door to their appearances down the road.

And I gotta give it to old Ur, wannabe Luthor he may have been, but that Gem Kryptonite wasn't a bad plan.

[JulianPerez]

Such a no-brainer, really.

"Superman and his Incredible Fortress of Solitude" completely captures the character. You don't get writing like this any more. Most of you should have seen this already, but for those of you who haven't, READ THIS NOW:

http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/317.html

Yeah, this is the Roy Thomas-written story whre Superman drinks a milkshake I was talking about. That was truly hilarious beyond reason.

Another Superman story that ought to be canon again...

The ADULT Legion story, in ADVENTURE COMICS #354-355 (1967). This story has an absolutely mindblowing premise: SuperMAN, not SuperBOY, is contacted by the Legion, and he visits the Legionnaires' future, seeing the teenaged Legionnaires as adults, and discovering who got married, who died, who lost their powers, who has children, and so forth. Matter-Eater Lad, for instance, we learned would eventually become President of Bismoll, his home planet, Polar Boy, a Substitute Legionnaire, would eventually join the Legion of Super-Heroes proper, the Legion headquarters would eventually expand to cover nearly an entire city block instead of one rocket-shaped Superhero Clubhouse, Cosmic Boy and Night Girl would marry, and Brainiac would start smoking a very distinguished looking pipe.

The reason this story ought to be brought back into continuity is because it was great to know, in advance, what would happen to these characters. Why, it was almost like cheating!

[marshal99]

Actually in the post crisis storyline "time and time again" , an adult version of legion of super heroes also made an appearance to the time travelling superman . Good story which takes superman from merlin's time to World War II JSA and 31st century legion of superheroes.

[NotSuper]

Speaking of Jax-Ur, has anyone ever noticed that he looks exactly like Dan Didio? Same bald head, same handlebar mustache, same body type, ect. I mentioned this in a past thread, but I figure that the Superman board would know more about Jax-Ur.

Here's a visual comparison:

Jax-Ur (http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superwhoswho/JaxUr-Adv289.JPG)

Dan Didio (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0410/11/didio.jpg)

Coincidence?

[Ontir]

Where IS Cary Bates? What's he up to these days, and why isn't he doing anything (to my knowledge) with comics. He and Shooter were the go-to-guys @ DC, back in the day. Both should be forces to be reckoned with in the industry today, both are MIA.

[JulianPerez]

Speaking of Jax-Ur, has anyone ever noticed that he looks exactly like Dan Didio? Same bald head, same handlebar mustache, same body type, ect. I mentioned this in a past thread, but I figure that the Superman board would know more about Jax-Ur.

Here's a visual comparison:

Jax-Ur (http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superwhoswho/JaxUr-Adv289.JPG)

Dan Didio (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0410/11/didio.jpg)

Coincidence?

Oh...wow. That's pretty funny. Never before did I realize that Dan Didio has a Highway Cop moustache.

"You know how FAST you were going back there, Geoff Johns?"

Of course, there is some precidence for writers looking something like the characters they write.

Brian Bendis, I swear, looks exactly like a Curt Swan/Murphy Anderson drawing of Lex Luthor: bald, chubby, slightly sinister sneer...

Where IS Cary Bates? What's he up to these days, and why isn't he doing anything (to my knowledge) with comics. He and Shooter were the go-to-guys @ DC, back in the day. Both should be forces to be reckoned with in the industry today, both are MIA.

My question is this: why isn't Cary Bates ruling the universe right now? Because considering Bates's work just imagining him doing comics now is thinking too small. I mean, that guy wrote rejected scripts for two James Bond movies (including, I believe, MOONRAKER).

Cary Bates hasn't fallen off the edge of the universe. Cary Bates is right now working in animation, I believe...he was a writer on GARGOYLES, no surprise there, considering how great that show was, and is currently a writer on W.I.T.C.H. - which I haven't seen, but considering how great Cary Bates's other girl cartoon series was (you might have heard of it - JEM) it's probably not terrible.

[ShadowSonic]

Speaking of Jax-Ur, has anyone ever noticed that he looks exactly like Dan Didio? Same bald head, same handlebar mustache, same body type, ect. I mentioned this in a past thread, but I figure that the Superman board would know more about Jax-Ur.

Here's a visual comparison:

Jax-Ur (http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superwhoswho/JaxUr-Adv289.JPG)

Dan Didio (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0410/11/didio.jpg)

Coincidence?

Huh, makes me like the Animated Jax-Ur design from S:TAS even more.

[JulianPerez]

Huh, makes me like the Animated Jax-Ur design from S:TAS even more.

Yeah, but TAS Jax-Ur didn't have that big of a molestache.

[The Batman]

I think I have to go with the World's Finest's next generation sons. The evil son of Superman, and the virtuous son of Batman. Very interesting stuff, and it would be cool to see how they would fit into current continuity. Kid Superman flying back in time to alter some event, while his nemesis, Kid Batman tries desperately to thwart him.

You know, thinking about this makes me kind of wish that the aftermath of Infinite Crisis was that the multiverse had been restored, the Modern DCU being the Prime Universe, but Earth 2 existing again, with all the characters intact, the Marvel Family moved to Earth S, along with Bulleteer and Ibis, etc. the Wildstorm characters being placed into this larger continuity, along with Earth 97, the Tangent Universe, and all the other myriad possibilities out there to be explored in whatever way talented creators chose. Why not add an Earth 247 logo to the cover. As long as people know which continuity they're dealing with, and that unless it's stated that it's in the Prime Universe, it's not a part of that continuity, what would be wrong with that. It would also free up other Earth's characters to be freely re-interpreted in the Prime Universe, in new and exciting ways, just like they did in the fifties, when they created the Silver Age.

that's still all possible though, travelling to different and alternate dimensions can still be done in the comic book world while still enjoying the the expereince of one unified Earth. i mean the CSA universe still exists even without the multiverse after all. it's too bad that more writers don't try an alternate universe/parallel dimension story more often....

[dupersuper]

Despite all the other phantom zone criminals mentioned, after Supes 1& 2 and recent Smallville episodes, let's face it; Zod is THE phantom zone villian.
The only way you're likely to see the others in current comics again is as "disciples of Zod"...which could be cool.

[Damo]

The only way you're likely to see the others in current comics again is as "disciples of Zod"...which could be cool.

What are you basing that on? The Phantom Zone is a prison. Now maybe he's one of the toughest prisoners in there, but I have a hard time believing that worst criminals in all of Krypton would all fall in line and be anyone's discliples. No way in hell Faora would be his disciple. Maybe have a non-agression treaty with him, but that would be about it...

Man. Gargoyles. Cary Bates' stuff on that was good. But... so was everyone's. That was just an amazing show.

[JulianPerez]

What are you basing that on? The Phantom Zone is a prison. Now maybe he's one of the toughest prisoners in there,

I seriously doubt that. Considering Dru-Zod's appearances come in two flavors: 1) background appearances (making him at best, the Commander Riker of the Phantom Zone, a guy that says "Gosh, you're right!" to Kru-El or whoever's plan it was this time), and 2) one panel flashbacks showing his Bizarro Duplicator Ray in operation during his attempt to seize Ft. Rozz, whose point wasn't even to talk about General Dru-Zod, but to show how nasty the Phantom Zoners in general are.

Guys, Dru-Zod had a good movie where he was played by a great actor, but that has nothing to do with the comic book. At least, it shouldn't; I for one, applaud that the JLA writers did not put Hawkgirl in the JLA just because she was in the show; this shows surprising restraint. Doing something like that says, "these aren't characters with lives of their own, they are properties to place on beach towels that we can alter with whatever is hip or trendy or going on elsewhere."

but I have a hard time believing that worst criminals in all of Krypton would all fall in line and be anyone's discliples. No way in hell Faora would be his disciple.

Am I the only one who detects a whiff of mysoginy, where previously Faora was THE single most dangerous Phantom Zone inmate, a role usurped by not just a GUY, but a guy's guy from the ARMY for godsakes? The idea of making Faora, who with a touch paralyzed Superman, a lackey or goon for General No-Account...

Man. Gargoyles. Cary Bates' stuff on that was good. But... so was everyone's. That was just an amazing show.

You said it! I can't believe it ever got made, it was so smart, so original. Everyone throws terms like that around, but GARGOYLES was both of those things; in one episode, for instance, they actually EXPLAIN why it is that you can "see" a laser beam from their death ray guns, when it should be, like a bullet, too fast to see (and in the case of Star Wars, if you run fast enough, you can probably outrace their laser beams!). It's a little thing, but it's so typical of how well they thought it all through. What an amazing program.

[dupersuper]

I never said Zod was the nastiest in the old stories, just that he's been the big fish for almost 30 years now, and is easily the big (and best known) name presently.

[JulianPerez]

I never said Zod was the nastiest in the old stories, just that he's been the big fish for almost 30 years ago, and is easily the big (and best known) name presently.

You know what the Cult of Zod reminds me of?

Every time someone really not that much into comics notices my Captain America coffee mug or whatever and start talking to me about their comic book memories, one question that usually comes up is, "And the Wonder Twins? What comic were they in?"

I usually tell them that actually, those two were created by Hanna-Barbara or something to that effect. And people are surprised; they think these characters, that were created for a TV show, were a major part of superhero comics.

Granted, lots of great ideas have come from other media; for instance, the Batcave came from the 1940s Batman serial, and Alfred was brought back to life because the sixties television show used him. However, there are reasons why SOME things should be brought into the comics and other things should not be.

I am against bringing Zod, at least a version of Zod mirroring the character Terrence Stamp played, into comics for the same reason I am against bringing King Tut into Batman comics: these characters are so associated with the brilliant character actors that brought them to life (Stamp and Victor Buono respectively) that they would not have that kind of life without the actor that played them.

[NotSuper]

You said it! I can't believe it ever got made, it was so smart, so original. Everyone throws terms like that around, but GARGOYLES was both of those things; in one episode, for instance, they actually EXPLAIN why it is that you can "see" a laser beam from their death ray guns, when it should be, like a bullet, too fast to see (and in the case of Star Wars, if you run fast enough, you can probably outrace their laser beams!). It's a little thing, but it's so typical of how well they thought it all through. What an amazing program.
Agreed. Gargoyles was my favorite show of the nineties. It was so intelligent and ahead of its time that the current animated shows (with some exceptions) still haven't reached its level.

[NotSuper]

I like Zod but I was always a littled bothered by the fact that his first name ("Dru") wasn't used much. It's not a big complaint, though.

[Damo]

I seriously doubt that. Considering Dru-Zod's appearances come in two flavors: 1) background appearances (making him at best, the Commander Riker of the Phantom Zone, a guy that says "Gosh, you're right!" to Kru-El or whoever's plan it was this time), and 2) one panel flashbacks showing his Bizarro Duplicator Ray in operation during his attempt to seize Ft. Rozz, whose point wasn't even to talk about General Dru-Zod, but to show how nasty the Phantom Zoners in general are.


This is, of course, all true for the Silver Age books. However, taking the broader view of the Superman Mythos as a whole, there's no denying that his portrayal in Superman 2 is what's going to stick. And that's really fine with me, I had no great love for the character as he was, and what I saw in that movie was most impressive indeed. But even if you replace the traditional Silver Age Zod with the character we saw in theatres, I can't see the Phantom Zone criminals as a whole falling in line behind any one guy. And heck, some of those Silver Age characters were every bit as intimidating as movie Zod.

I don't mind movie Zod becoming the most important take on the character in the mythos. This is the post-Crisis, post-Infinite Crisis new earth after all, If we're going to say that the old stories are no longer in continuity then I say let the writers pick and choose the best of all available interpretations of old characters for new stories. Now I'm not saying they should try to match Stamp's take on Zod's manerisms and dialogue. That's a recipe for disaster. You need the genius of Terrance Stamp to pull off that exact take on the character. But if you want to use that movie's portrayal as a reason to make him a much more nasty character in this "New Earth"? Sure, why not. Impress me with what you add to the mythos. I have no problem with that. But I have serious problems with making all the other zoners weak to give him some stance of authority. They may not have had the same public exposure, but that doesn't make their past portrayals any less impressive.



You said it! I can't believe it ever got made, it was so smart, so original. Everyone throws terms like that around, but GARGOYLES was both of those things; in one episode, for instance, they actually EXPLAIN why it is that you can "see" a laser beam from their death ray guns, when it should be, like a bullet, too fast to see (and in the case of Star Wars, if you run fast enough, you can probably outrace their laser beams!). It's a little thing, but it's so typical of how well they thought it all through. What an amazing program.

Gads but I'd love to see Dr. Anton Sevarius team up with Luthor. *Sighs wistfully.* They set the bar so high for mad scientists...

What always amazes me is the sheer chutzpah of the people working on that show. From the word go they were trying to put in every myth and legend. They had a main character get shot and nearly die just a few episodes in - not by a villain, just another character carelessly playing with a gun. They made one of the main villains the genocidal "ex-wife" of one of the main characters. And they put in Macbeth. Like Shakespeare? No, like the real story, the one Shakespeare was forced not to tell.

I mean, blue blazes, when your main competition is Power Rangers, it took some real courage to go with something so clearly complex and risky. And the world is a much better place for their having tried it. ^_^

(I just wish Weismann wasn't so gosh darn serious all the time in those Director's Commentaries of his...)

[Kara Zor El]

I got access to old Superman stories from British Superman Anuals. Getting hold of actual american comics was difficult. They popped uo from time to time at jumble sales. I had an Superman annual back in the late seventies. The stories in it may have been origionally printed much earlier. But one always stood out for me. I can't remember the name but Superman was trying to stop some sort of metorite or missile in space. He suddenly finds himself in a room with Abraham Lincoln and other dead heroes from the past. Their is a higher force that tells Superman, that he has just died but not to worry that he has already been replaced by an android and in fact he is an android about three times over as the origional Supes died years before in an act of heroism. This higher being replaced the origional Supes with an android that believes it is Supes, and then in time had to replace that one and so on. Each new version has the origionals memories and thinks it is supes. All the powers are the same but underneath he is a robot. This time Supes found a way out but I was never sure if this was continuity or not. I was very puzzled but loved the story. So I'd like to bring it back to continuity.
Does anyone else remember this story and if so can you add to my faded memory of it?

[JulianPerez]

(I just wish Weismann wasn't so gosh darn serious all the time in those Director's Commentaries of his...)

Is that right? I always imagined the creator of Gargoyles as being this fun to be around, Hal Ashby-esque pothead.

Julie Schwartz refused to continue to edit Superman because he was being written by the up and coming hotshots and pretty boys in ways contrary to character. I can't remember if Cary Bates left WITH Schwartz or slightly before, but Superman's loss was (Jesus!) Gargoyles' gain.

Someone once called Cary Bates the Grant Morrison of the Bronze Age, but that would be underestimating him...Bates combined this incredible skill for plots: if you picked up a Bates story, there's no wasted space; EVERYTHING is important to the story, an incredible "tightness" to it.

[Damo]

Is that right? I always imagined the creator of Gargoyles as being this fun to be around, Hal Ashby-esque pothead.

I would have thought something like that too (especially after seeing the guy's M.I.B. episodes. Cool, but surreal). But in the DVDs for the second season (or at least the first part of the second season - if sales aren't good we'll never get the rest of the series, so for heavens sakes buy a copy!) he wasn't allowed do as many commentaries as he wanted, but he did manage to get a quick introduction to each episode. Unfortunately he played it way too seriously. If he'd gone for something earnest but not so serious, like the kind of thing Stan Lee does, it would have worked a lot better I think. But he was deathly serious to the point I almost felt embarassed at times...

Now that I think of it, I'd adore to see Weisman pen a few Superman tales. I know he did some Captain Atom years ago, although I've never read the actual books. Now I'm not knocking W.I.T.C.H., I've never watched it, but there's no way it could be as much fun as working with Supes.

[JulianPerez]

Now that I think of it, I'd adore to see Weisman pen a few Superman tales. I know he did some Captain Atom years ago, although I've never read the actual books.

You know who ELSE has written Captain Atom? In fact, the person who rebooted him? C-C-C-Cary Bates!

I wonder if that's how Wiseman (like Gaiman, that's a name far too funny to not mispronounce) recruited Cary Bates.

It's a shame there's not as much give and take between comics and animation anymore; time was, if you were a decent DC or Marvel guy, you could get work as a writer or story artist for other works. Didn't Marv Wolfman write "The Return of Optimus Prime?" I know for a fact that Steve Gerber and Roy Thomas were script consultants for TRANSFORMERS and GI JOE, which was great, because they had this sort of "Marvel snappy patter." Seen here:

SCARLET: I missed you.
DUKE: Yeah...by THAT much.

Great to see those guys bring the old Marvel spit and polish to those big robots and army guys!

And then we have Mark Evanier writing DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and Gerry Conway and Roy Thomas as the writers of that Bakshi movie, FIRE AND ICE? (I believe one of the primary animators on Bakshi's WIZARDS was Jim Starlin.) The screenwriting duo of Thomas and Conway also did CONAN THE DESTROYER, which explains why it was a lot of fun, and not insufferable and pretentious like the first one (yecch - way to misuse James Earl Jones there). Steve Englehart was a writer for DROIDS.

To get us off topic even more than we already are, if you want to see one show that is absolutly fantastic, check out the FIRST season of EWOKS, especially the episodes by Paul Dini. It isn't like you think; it was all stone age-esque, and involved Shamanism and characters named "Morag" and primitive life, with rituals and hunts and monsters and all that. Shortly after it "jumped the shark" and became about bears learning the meaning of sharing and caring or whatever the hell, but for a while there...

Now I'm not knocking W.I.T.C.H., I've never watched it, but there's no way it could be as much fun as working with Supes.

That's Cary Bates's latest writing project, they say.There is no damn way I'm getting up before noon on a Saturday, even for Cary Bates...can anyone that's watched it tell us what it's like?

[Pinnacle]

While I'm not real familiar with the Pre-Crisis stories with them being before my time, the one thing that I would like to see is a streamlined version of the Phantom Zone that is a source for substantial Superman villains, Zod and others. I of course grew up with the Stamp version of Zod but I always wondered what other criminals resided there and what kind of threats they could be. Plus I wish the Fortress played a bigger part in Superman's mythos than it does now. The destruction of the Fortress was my least favorite part of For Tommorrow and I can't believe they put the new one in the Amazon.

Finally, I am humbled by the amount of Pre-Crisis knowledge that you guys have and you have me wanting to check out Cary Bates's work.

[acagle7]

Like someone else said, I would make For The Man Who Has Everything cannon again.

[Damo]

Like someone else said, I would make For The Man Who Has Everything cannon again.

...which kinda confuses me, because the problem that story had was that it wasn't really set in either pre or post-crisis. Recent events in GL seem to have made it canon, but it was never canon pre-crisis to begin with, so it doesn't really count as a "pre-crisis" story to bring back.

[NotSuper]

...which kinda confuses me, because the problem that story had was that it wasn't really set in either pre or post-crisis. Recent events in GL seem to have made it canon, but it was never canon pre-crisis to begin with, so it doesn't really count as a "pre-crisis" story to bring back.
What do you base that on? The story was always in pre-Crisis continuity.

Or are you using "pre-Crisis" literally here? Because that term itself is misleading. Superman's Bronze Age character continued for some time after the Crisis itself. Technically people should use pre-reboot instead of pre-Crisis, but that's not going to happen. The popular usage of pre-Crisis refers to stories set before Byrne rebooted Superman.

[Damo]

You know who ELSE has written Captain Atom? In fact, the person who rebooted him? C-C-C-Cary Bates!

I wonder if that's how Wiseman (like Gaiman, that's a name far too funny to not mispronounce) recruited Cary Bates.

How serendipitous! Hm. And Weisman is the story editor for W.I.T.C.H. (which apparently gives him some say in what the series' overall "arcs" are). That's just... neat!


It's a shame there's not as much give and take between comics and animation anymore;

There's still a trickle (Gail Simone on JLU anyone?), but I know what you mean. I think at least partly that's because Marvel and DC are tapping writers from more "adult" media these days (I can't say I'm complaining, I adored Bablyon 5, and I think Kevin Smith's comics have been overall spiffy
if not very punctual). But there's definitely a widening gap between cartoons and American comics.

That said, Paul Dini working on Batman. I'm there.



To get us off topic even more than we already are, if you want to see one show that is absolutly fantastic, check out the FIRST season of EWOKS, especially the episodes by Paul Dini. It isn't like you think; it was all stone age-esque, and involved Shamanism and characters named "Morag" and primitive life, with rituals and hunts and monsters and all that. Shortly after it "jumped the shark" and became about bears learning the meaning of sharing and caring or whatever the hell, but for a while there...


I remember that! Nice subtle environmentalist tone early on, then the second season came around... And oy... and I remember being so pleased with the early show that I went out of my way to track down the 2 EWOKS movies it was meant to be spun off of, only to find that they were... not good.

As long as we're throwing out sci-fi animation recommendations, if you're feeling adventurous there's finally a non-butchered translation of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind in the U.S.. Absolutely amazing film, with some visuals that are still breathtaking 22 years later. "The Sea of Corruption", a literally lethal fungi forest covering most of the globe was nothing short of spectacular, and wouldn't at all be out of place on a harshly beautiful world like Krypton (Slightly back on topic!). And the title character... well, there's a damn good reason that never in the in 22 years that the movie's been out has that girl dropped off the "top ten favorite animated characters" Japanese magazines run every month. She's just an amazing character.

Speaking of amazing characters, and getting back on topic...


What, no love for Terra Man? I mean, he was never remotely my favorite character, but I'm surprised nobody's said they'd pick one of his stories to have back. Ever more than poor "Milton Fine", there's a character that was just shortchanged post-crisis. From outer space desperado to environmentalist terrorist? What the heck?

[JulianPerez]

How serendipitous! Hm. And Weisman is the story editor for W.I.T.C.H. (which apparently gives him some say in what the series' overall "arcs" are). That's just... neat!

Cary Bates's CAPTAIN ATOM reboot was one of the few truly effective reboots around, a credit to Bates's amazing ability. Usually, reboots are a case of some jumped up snot fixing things that weren't broke. Here, Bates gave Captain Atom a totally unique idea as a "fake" superhero whose history was artificial. He did it with such a sense of irony and humor - and it was Bates that gave the DC Universe Warren Eiling. My favorite was the issue with the "new" Doctor Spectro, who was a blackmailer using the identity of a Captain Atom villain the government created as a part of his "backstory." A blackmailer all too aware there never WAS a Doctor Spectro that fought "secret battles" with Captain Atom.

"What's wrong, Doctor Spectro? Aren't you going to 'taunt' me, the way you did through our many 'battles?' "

I laughed so hard. If only they had given SUPERMAN to Cary Bates to reboot after Crisis instead of Captain Atom...

Though he left FLASH around the right time. Baron, and later Messner-Loebs, were able to give Wally so much likeability and personality! Thanks to them, people stopped asking when Barry was going to be back.

...which kinda confuses me, because the problem that story had was that it wasn't really set in either pre or post-crisis. Recent events in GL seem to have made it canon, but it was never canon pre-crisis to begin with, so it doesn't really count as a "pre-crisis" story to bring back.

SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11, "Man Who Has Everything" is absolutely in pre-Reboot continuity for several reasons. The first is that it features the duplicate/replica Kandor seen in SUPERMAN SPECIAL #3 (1985) by E. Nelson Bridwell (it was the Kandor replaced by Superman with Wonder Woman's gift). This duplicate Kandor featured aliens that were naturally tiny from a yellow sun world that Superman rescued. The second is that Superman's birthday is stated to bbe on February 29th - which means that Superman only has a birthday once every four years! This detail is one only shared by the Earth-1, Silver/Bronze Age Superman.

While I loved this annual a lot, I'm not sure if it would be my choice for the ONE pre-Reboot Superman story to bring back into play.

I would however, make it the one JASON TODD story to bring back into play. Jason Todd was never better than he was here: insecure (especially around women), and had a lot more intelligence, chops and resourcefulness than people tended to give him credit for, a swell kid to know. I mean, he DID save the day in that story. If he had been continued to be played this way (as he was in the Wolfman Zandia arc in NEW TEEN TITANS, though there he was given admittedly less to do) Jason would have been a beloved character and would probably still be Robin to this day.

I remember that! Nice subtle environmentalist tone early on, then the second season came around... And oy... and I remember being so pleased with the early show that I went out of my way to track down the 2 EWOKS movies it was meant to be spun off of, only to find that they were... not good.

Yeah, that was Paul Dini.

This is going to sound like I'm damning with faint praise (and I actually did enjoy the Ewok movies a great deal) but...they were still better than EPISODE ONE. And at least the Ewok movies still felt like they were set in the Star Wars universe - after seeing CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK, it occurs to me what exactly was "off" about the prequels: they were set in Riddick's universe, not the Star Wars one!

As long as we're throwing out sci-fi animation recommendations, if you're feeling adventurous there's finally a non-butchered translation of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind in the U.S.. Absolutely amazing film, with some visuals that are still breathtaking 22 years later. "The Sea of Corruption", a literally lethal fungi forest covering most of the globe was nothing short of spectacular, and wouldn't at all be out of place on a harshly beautiful world like Krypton (Slightly back on topic!). And the title character... well, there's a damn good reason that never in the in 22 years that the movie's been out has that girl dropped off the "top ten favorite animated characters" Japanese magazines run every month. She's just an amazing character.

Oh, Damo, you disappoint me. NAUISICAA was a great movie, sure, but lichen on rocks on Mars have seen NAUSICAA.

What, no love for Terra Man? I mean, he was never remotely my favorite character, but I'm surprised nobody's said they'd pick one of his stories to have back.

I don't know if this is coincidence or design, but you're aware Cary Bates created Terra-Man, right?

Well, let me pick up the gauntlet here: my all time favorite has to be ACTION COMICS #468-470, which is (again) by Terra-Man's creator, Cary Bates, featuring Terra-Man challenging Superman to showdowns that he broadcasts across the world. The robot controlled lasso, the fact that Superman appeared to have been KILLED was one heck of a surprise, as was Superman's return from the grave the next issue, where he becomes an exact DOUBLE of Terra-Man, all the while alien posses are gunning for Superman thinking he's the guy he looks like...!

I also think it would be wonderful if the story in WORLD'S FINEST #261 by Denny O'Neil that features Terra-Man and the Penguin teaming up against Superman and Batman was back in canon. Terra-Man tended to be the "Superman" enemy in any given team ups a lot of the time; note for instance, the DC COMICS PRESENTS issue with Superman and the Blue Devil that featured him.

Actually, it's easier to identify the Terra-Man stories I would NOT want back. As much as I love Paul Kupperberg's NEW ADVENTURES OF SUPERGIRL (Matrix-Prime and the Gang are great exclusive additions to Supergirl's rogues gallery) he really fumbled the ball with SUPERMAN #377 (1982) which had Terra-Man team up with an alternate magical version of himself. Whenever a super-writer resorts to a magic-using villain, it's usually a sign of writer laziness and boredom: witness Denny O'Neil's creation of Pompeii wizard Moximus (never seen after his first appearance - there's a shock), and to be honest, all the magic-using hot chicks that popped up in the 1980s, Syrene, the Jennifer Kale-looking Yellow Peri, et. al. all sort of run together and I can't tell them apart.

Ever more than poor "Milton Fine", there's a character that was just shortchanged post-crisis. From outer space desperado to environmentalist terrorist? What the heck?

Yeah, Terra-Man by far suffered the worst of any character under the reboot. "Eco-Terrorism?" What, is Steve Ditko writing this now? Still, I think Superman should battle MORE enemies that represent straw men and irrational phobias of the extreme right. How about the Unionist: six men that unite to form one giant monster?

Though Supreme already beat Byrne and Kesel to the punch by battling Hillary Clinton!

[Damo]

Cary Bates's CAPTAIN ATOM reboot was one of the few truly effective reboots around, a credit to Bates's amazing ability.

You're preaching to the choir on the merits of that book, although I have to admit I wasn't aware who wrote it.

SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11, "Man Who Has Everything" is absolutely in pre-Reboot continuity for several reasons. The first is that it features the duplicate/replica Kandor seen in SUPERMAN SPECIAL #3 (1985) by E. Nelson Bridwell (it was the Kandor replaced by Superman with Wonder Woman's gift). This duplicate Kandor featured aliens that were naturally tiny from a yellow sun world that Superman rescued. The second is that Superman's birthday is stated to bbe on February 29th - which means that Superman only has a birthday once every four years! This detail is one only shared by the Earth-1, Silver/Bronze Age Superman.

I stand corrected! I'd always thought the story was in limbo, like "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow".


I would however, make it the one JASON TODD story to bring back into play. Jason Todd was never better than he was here: insecure (especially around women), and had a lot more intelligence, chops and resourcefulness than people tended to give him credit for, a swell kid to know. I mean, he DID save the day in that story. If he had been continued to be played this way (as he was in the Wolfman Zandia arc in NEW TEEN TITANS, though there he was given admittedly less to do) Jason would have been a beloved character and would probably still be Robin to this day.


You may be on to something there. I have to admit, I was one of the ones that wanted the kid gone. I would have preferred a less severe option, but it was all that DC was offering, and I thought (and still think) that having a violent, surly, and possibly murderous Boy Wonder was far more damaging to Batman than the loss of a replacement Robin. The character's return as a possibly psychopathic vigilante has left me particularly irked, since I had chosen what I thought was the lesser of two evils, and now both evils are front and center.



This is going to sound like I'm damning with faint praise (and I actually did enjoy the Ewok movies a great deal) but...they were still better than EPISODE ONE. And at least the Ewok movies still felt like they were set in the Star Wars universe - after seeing CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK, it occurs to me what exactly was "off" about the prequels: they were set in Riddick's universe, not the Star Wars one!

Oddly, I'm one of the few people that prefered Episode one to episode two. At least Phantom gave me one of the best lightsaber fights in all of Star Wars, Two just left me wishing Lucas would get a prescription for Ritalin.

I thought that the "prequels", and the Ewoks movies, were all missing one key ingredient from the original movies: a lovable rogue, making snarky remarks in between the Jedis' zen koans, and just basically voicing aloud how ridiculous things were.



Oh, Damo, you disappoint me. NAUISICAA was a great movie, sure, but lichen on rocks on Mars have seen NAUSICAA. To be fair, if they've seen a correctly and legally translated verison it would have been substantially later (or more difficult, if they got a translation other than Disney's recent DVD) than when they saw Ewoks... "Warriors of the Wind" was my first real glimpse of Japanese Animation (I think it's safe to say I was an immediate convert) but comparing it to the original Nausicaa it was butcherwork plain and simple. If the stories are true, there was actually an effort on the editors' part to change the movie enough to make Nausicaa's Uncle as much a main character as Nausicaa herself. Sadly a cursory look at the last few years of anime on TV shows that kind of "creative editing" is alive and flourishing. I can't help but wonder if Superman the movie would have held up so well in the face of that kind of creative cowardice.


For more recent recommendations (not directed by Miyazaki - you can always depend on him to make a superb movie) the El-Hazard OAVs from '95 are absolutely magnificent, and again feature marvelous locations that would be right at home on Krypton. But that's to be expected, they were influenced by Arabian Nights and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars tales. There's quite a bit of "fanservice" early on, but if you don't mind that then you'll find a true masterpiece of science fiction, as well as one of my all time favorite love stories. Waiting thousands of years to see your soul mate again... brings tears to my eyes every time.

More recent and easier to find are the three short Read or Die OAVs (packaged on one DVD). No Kryptonian connection at all, but they star Yomiko Readman, a half-British-half-Japanese agent of the British Library Special Forces, whose love for books is so great that paper loves her back and will do whatever she wants. Any bibliophile should feel a kinship with Yomiko. It also features evil clones of some of history's greatest figures, including Otto Lilienthal flying a steam-powered super glider!


Actually, it's easier to identify the Terra-Man stories I would NOT want back. As much as I love Paul Kupperberg's NEW ADVENTURES OF SUPERGIRL (Matrix-Prime and the Gang are great exclusive additions to Supergirl's rogues gallery) he really fumbled the ball with SUPERMAN #377 (1982) which had Terra-Man team up with an alternate magical version of himself.

Woo... Glad I missed that one. Yes, I'd definitely go with Man Who has Anything over those Terra Man tales. Although after recent Green Lantern events, I suspect it's been quietly nudged back in already.

Whenever a super-writer resorts to a magic-using villain, it's usually a sign of writer laziness and boredom: witness Denny O'Neil's creation of Pompeii wizard Moximus (never seen after his first appearance - there's a shock), and to be honest, all the magic-using hot chicks that popped up in the 1980s, Syrene, the Jennifer Kale-looking Yellow Peri, et. al. all sort of run together and I can't tell them apart.

Any thoughts on the Queen of Fables? I really enjoyed her first appearance JLA, and thought Gail Simone made excellent use of her, pitting Superman against the worst monsters of Kryptonian fairy tales. I thought that it was a very nice touch when she revealed she knew Clark Kent's identity - after all, she knew all legends, and Superman definitely qualified as a legend!



Yeah, Terra-Man by far suffered the worst of any character under the reboot. "Eco-Terrorism?" What, is Steve Ditko writing this now? Is the Kryptonite Man that was just introduced the first take on the character post crisis? As much as I groaned at his creatively bankrupt origin ("My mad science experiment has gone horribly wrong! I've been... changed! Well, guess it's supervillainy for me then. I sahll call myself the Green Go... Doctor Octo... The Kryptonite Man!"), I shudder to think of what might have happened if he'd fared similarly to Terra-Man.

[JulianPerez]

You may be on to something there. I have to admit, I was one of the ones that wanted the kid gone. I would have preferred a less severe option, but it was all that DC was offering, and I thought (and still think) that having a violent, surly, and possibly murderous Boy Wonder was far more damaging to Batman than the loss of a replacement Robin. The character's return as a possibly psychopathic vigilante has left me particularly irked, since I had chosen what I thought was the lesser of two evils, and now both evils are front and center.

The whole "jerk" Robin came later. If they kept the Jason Todd Robin behaving the way he did in this story (and the Wolfman NEW TITANS), as a smart if underappreciated resource that has much more to him than meets the eye, I doubt it would even have come to a vote.

Oddly, I'm one of the few people that prefered Episode one to episode two. At least Phantom gave me one of the best lightsaber fights in all of Star Wars, Two just left me wishing Lucas would get a prescription for Ritalin.

Hehehe. I can't believe they made someone as chilling as Christopher Lee so goddamn boring. Come EPISODE II, Dracula himself was made an evil literature professor.

As obnoxious as EPISODE II was (C-3P0's head on a robot? HILARITY!) it had one thing over EPISODE I: come EPISODE II the characters victories were intentional. As opposed to some kid "accidentally" flying off in a space jet and "accidentally" blowing up a battleship, and (for the love of GOD, people) Jar Jar destroying forty bad guys by tripping.

I thought that the "prequels", and the Ewoks movies, were all missing one key ingredient from the original movies: a lovable rogue, making snarky remarks in between the Jedis' zen koans, and just basically voicing aloud how ridiculous things were.

Agreed. It really says something that the most down to earth character in the prequels were a Queen of the Universe and an evil Backstreet Boy.

Any thoughts on the Queen of Fables? I really enjoyed her first appearance JLA, and thought Gail Simone made excellent use of her, pitting Superman against the worst monsters of Kryptonian fairy tales. I thought that it was a very nice touch when she revealed she knew Clark Kent's identity - after all, she knew all legends, and Superman definitely qualified as a legend!

That's the character Mark Waid created in his JLA run, right? The one that they put in the Tax Code at the end? I thought it was a pretty fun story, however, I thought the Queen herself had "one-shot villainess" written all over her; it surprises me like anything that she's being used again; she had the feeling of a character like Gerry Conway's Rex and the Animal Men, who would give one good story and that's about it, since the position of JLA magic using enemy is filled by Felix Faust.

I haven't read the Gail Simone Superman; she's a great writer and all (her VILLAINS UNITED was an extraordinary achievement, best book I bought that whole month) but I just have had zero interest in the character she's writing in her SUPERMAN. I don't know; if Gail Simone can write Superman with intelligence and old school panache the way Roger Stern did, I might check it out sometime.

[Joe no Sleep]

The Supermobile.

Believe that, true believer. Believe that.:D

[Ontir]

Superboy and the Pocket Universe. The Legion worked, Matrix/Supergirl worked. Superman worked. It all just worked, with the original continuity!

[mohammedali]

Superman vs Muhammad Ali

[Andy S.]

I forget which issue it was, but "The Super-duel in Space"- where Superman meets Brainiac for the first time. Here, Brainiac is a renegade alien scientist who flies around in a ship shrinking cities. I just never liked the Milton Fine Post-Crisis version of Brainiac, myself.

[Ontir]

Superman vs Muhammad Ali

What a great book! Neal Adams art was just luscious! I'd also like to see the Scrubb in regular continuity. I wonder if they were never seen again, because they were viewed as too Marvel for DC?

[SuperManny]

What a great book! Neal Adams art was just luscious! I'd also like to see the Scrubb in regular continuity. I wonder if they were never seen again, because they were viewed as too Marvel for DC?

Care to fill us Post-Crisis Superman fans who Scrubb was? :)

Sounds like a laundry hero....

[NotSuper]

Care to fill us Post-Crisis Superman fans who Scrubb was? :)

Sounds like a laundry hero....
I'm a pre-Crisis fan and I have no idea who Scrubb was. Seriously, I've never heard of the character.

[JulianPerez]

I'm a pre-Crisis fan and I have no idea who Scrubb was. Seriously, I've never heard of the character.

Hang your head in shame, NotSuper! :D

"The Scrubb" were the alien race seen in SUPERMAN VS. MUHAMMED ALI, a STAR WARS/BATTLESTAR GALACTICA esque race with giant battleships that threatened the earth unless the Champion of Earth steps forward to battle their champion, one of the few named Scrubb, Hun'Ya, who gets his clock cleaned by "The Greatest." Hun'Ya later defeats his own leader when after the battle, he attacks earth personally.

And that Neal Adams cover was something else. Was I the only one that spotted Mr. Kotter and the Jackson Five?

[Spider-Man]

I'd retcon the Death of Superman '92 and replace it with an updated version of the original Death of Superman. Clone Luthor engineers the death of Superman, but not before revealing who he really is. Superman dies, but his spirit is transferred via Kryptonian technology into a body in the Fortress cloned by means of that same Kryptonian tech.

Supergirl banishes Luthor to the PZ in a fit of rage. She takes Superman's place for a time, while other Supermen appear, a la "Reign of the Supermen." One is the Eradicator, who we later learn was responsible for setting up the clone in waiting for just such an event. By the end of the year or so long tale, the Fortess and the cloning tech it held is destroyed forever, ensuring that Superman cannot make infinite comebacks.

The other main difference is that Superman would actually go through deeper changes than just a new haircut. He'd have to deal with some missing memories and would have to also deal with being powerless for a time. All of these issues should have been dealt with in the Death of Superman 92.

Spidey

[Kara Zor El]

I'd retcon the Death of Superman '92 and replace it with an updated version of the original Death of Superman. Clone Luthor engineers the death of Superman, but not before revealing who he really is. Superman dies, but his spirit is transferred via Kryptonian technology into a body in the Fortress cloned by means of that same Kryptonian tech.

Supergirl banishes Luthor to the PZ in a fit of rage. She takes Superman's place for a time, while other Supermen appear, a la "Reign of the Supermen." One is the Eradicator, who we later learn was responsible for setting up the clone in waiting for just such an event. By the end of the year or so long tale, the Fortess and the cloning tech it held is destroyed forever, ensuring that Superman cannot make infinite comebacks.

The other main difference is that Superman would actually go through deeper changes than just a new haircut. He'd have to deal with some missing memories and would have to also deal with being powerless for a time. All of these issues should have been dealt with in the Death of Superman 92.

Spidey

Some really good improvements there. The spirit transfer into a clone works better than that whole gates of limbo with the demons thing. But what if the Spirit was transfered into a receptor. The Eradicator just needs to get Supes body back to the fortress and with a machine transfer it into the origional body, which won't decay in the meantime. But the body is stolen before the Eradicator can retrieve it. And the four imposter Supermen and Supergirl and others try and find it. Over time they do and we get Supes back in his origional body. But with almost total amnesia. He has to relearn everything. Makes lots of mistakes and stuff. Doesn't like Lois etc... after a long time he can get it all back once the writers had used up the whole amnesia angle.

[Ontir]

If the Superman robots had been around during the Doomsday story, it would've been interesting to see him rip one or two apart, sort of dead-ending various storylines, by having the people of Earth believe that Superman IS a robot. Then, afterward, another robot could appear, and people would be un-aware that the real Man of Steel died at all.

[Augusto]

Good thread. Buried over dozens of bad ones. You'll live again....

http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Invision-Board-France-234.gif

Another vote for "the man who has everything". Check JUstice League Animated versionhttp://www.smileyhut.com/thumb/thumbsupup.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)