When was the last time that Marvel did anything truly original?

[Norrin Radd]

I can't help but think that most of these recent Marvel storylines have been done before and done better. That's why if you see me in a comic book store, I'm usually diving straight to the "Essentials" shelf instead of the one with the new stuff.

I dunno...am I just a bitter, old fanboy, or do I actually have a point?

[twilight]

I think you're just a bitter old fan boy.

IMO of course.

[Jake V]

I can't help but think that most of these recent Marvel storylines have been done before and done better. That's why if you see me in a comic book store, I'm usually diving straight to the "Essentials" shelf instead of the one with the new stuff.

I dunno...am I just a bitter, old fanboy, or do I actually have a point?
Probably 1964 or 65. Whenever Stan and Jack stopped making new characters.

[Kevinroc]

Runaways?

Dan Slott's She-Hulk?

[Agentum]

No, She-hulk has been done better imho.

[Dr. Killtrocity]

Who cares? They still have good well written titles, so I really could care less about them being completely original. You have to focus on what really matters.

[lordlad]

Alias
Runaways
Sentry

And making Daredevil & Captain America as badass as they could ever been...

[Sanagi]

Hmmmmmmm....... Original is a tricky word... The introduction of Galactus and The Silver Surfer?

My less strict answer would be Sleepwalker.

[Nick MB]

The publication of Runaways #1.

[Ikaris]

Runaways and Alias are actually good examples... and very good comics!

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Recently is simple... Planet Hulk. Never been done before. The sotryline is one of the best ever.

Punisher MAX... the real way Punisher should be told.

Wolverine's real, true 100% Origin being revieled.

Runaways #1

Annihilation

Marvel the End series. Showing how all the MU charecters would eventually die, except Wolverine cause he never dies according to Marvel.

[Crash-Man]

I would say Alias and Runaways.

[We R. Venom]

Supreme Power!!.....No?...No?....Ok...

But seriously. Runaways as much as I try not to read it, I do.
Powers seems original to me.
Alias
The Sentry Mos Def.

[Agentum]

It's hard to be all new and do something that has never ever been done before.
And to invent new characters and get them to sell is not easy either, and the creators must give their ideas up for Marvel.

[Dr. Banner]

Recently is simple... Planet Hulk. Never been done before. The sotryline is one of the best ever.

Hulk on a planet where he's out of his league? Jarella's world and Crossroads.
Or, the movie Gladiator. With the Hulk.

(Yes, these are all superficial and the "originality" comes from the details, but, still. EVERYTHING'S been done before. Not that that bothers me at all.)

[DDM]

X-Men: Giant Size X-Men #1, Uncanny X-Men #94-278, Gambit's first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #266, Jubilee's first appearance in Uncanny X-Men #244, the slow shift of the X-Men from the school to the wild world from Uncanny X-Men #210-251 & rebirth of the X-Men from Uncanny X-Men #252-277. The creation of The New Mutants #1-100 (1982-1991), Excalibur (1987), & X-Factor (1986)

Avengers: Roger Stern's Avengers, Kurt Busiek's Avengers

Fantastic Four: John Byrne's Fantastic Four, Steve Englehart's Fantastic Four

Icredible Hulk: Peter David's stories

Squadron Supreme #1-12 (1986-1987)

Considering Marvel is placing many of these stories as Essentials &/or TPB format is telling. And Marvel currently does not have any original ideas of its own.

[agrich]

Milligan and Allred on X-Force and then X-Statix.

Millar and Hitch on Ultimates. (Actually maybe not, The Authority came first, but still. Considering they worked on that book, they're allowed.)

David and Sook's X-Factor is kind of different.

Alias, as mentioned.

and oh yeah

MARVEL ZOMBIES.

[lordlad]

How about the resurrection of Bucky that is actually GOOD.....

[Beast]

The problem is, just like with movies and novels, storytelling in general... pretty much all the stories have been done. There's only about a dozen or so main story archetypes. So yes, everything has been done before. It's just a matter of how the story is put together and who is involved. There's no such thing as originality in any written work anymore, just the illusion of originality.

[agrich]

Just because every archetype has been done before doesn't mean there's no original stories out there.

The idea of police working in a city of superheroes has been done many times, but it doesn't mean that "Top Ten" wasn't original, nor that "Powers" isn't.

[mandog]

The "everything has been done" arguement could be done for damn near every kind of entertainment. Movies, Music, Cmics, etc. Just look at my favorite genre of film(horror). Almost everything is a remake or a slight(and I mean very slight) twist on something thats already been done. But, I think its a great time to be a horror buff. And, its a great time to be a comic book nerd. All that matters is that whatever is remade or reworked is done well. Just look at Alexander Ajas The Hills Have Eyes. Its a remake of the Wes Cravens film and it was f**kin' great. so in my book who gives a shit if its been done. the better question is, Is it done right?

[Beast]

Exactly. Which you'll notice I commented on in my post. :)

[overcomebyfumes]

I thought Amazing Spider-man "Sins Past" was pretty orginal.

I know it sucked, but it sucked in a completely new way.

Pax.

[DouglasDanger]

Marvel Boy and Livewires were two books with lots of ideas.

[DDM]

Marvel Boy and Livewires were two books with lots of ideas.

Grant Morrison's Marvel Boy was to be expanded upon with 2 more 6 issue mini-series, but Bill Jemas wanted to fundamentally change Grant Morrison's concept. Therefore, Morrison refused to give up anymore ideas to Marvel. Considering he went to DC Comics when his Marvel contract was up should tell you something...

[Tony Starkz]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned Marvels yet.The story of a bystander in the Marvel Universe through the years and how these heroes and events have effected not only himself,but the general public was pretty new at the time.

Bendis' DD was truly special.The whole pulp/noir/super-hero style mixed with Maleev's art is something to brag about.

Planet Hulk was a very ballsy move.The story sounded flat at first,almost gimmicky.Boy was I wrong.

Ultimates would have to be up there as well.Sure the Avengers have been revamped before (Heroes Reborn) but never with this amount of relevance,realism and attention to character.

While the whole team of youngsters thing has been done before,Young Avengers presented it in a truly original way.These weren't sidekicks or partners,these were new characters who had actual ties to the Avengers.Yet another ballsy move considering these new characters did not appear anywhere else before and that the writer was somewhat of a newcomer to comics.

[Kevinroc]

Grant Morrison's Marvel Boy was to be expanded upon with 2 more 6 issue mini-series, but Bill Jemas wanted to fundamentally change Grant Morrison's concept. Therefore, Morrison refused to give up anymore ideas to Marvel. Considering he went to DC Comics when his Marvel contract was up should tell you something...

And Ed Brubaker ran off to Marvel.

Creators switch between companies all the time.

[Darkoth]

Last week probably.Granted,there's only one Jack Kirby in the realm of superheroes,but the quality of work seen in this new generation of artists is amazing.Maybe it's due to artists finally getting paid well enough to take the time to do great work.The writers ain't so bad either,but sometimes the current trend for constant realism gets me down.

[BeastieRunner]

I have to agree with everyone who has said Runaways, Ultimates, Annihilation, and Squardon Supreme.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Hulk on a planet where he's out of his league? Jarella's world and Crossroads.
Or, the movie Gladiator. With the Hulk.

(Yes, these are all superficial and the "originality" comes from the details, but, still. EVERYTHING'S been done before. Not that that bothers me at all.)


Oh come on. That's like saying because in the very first comic with hero's in there were hero's fighting bad guys so anytime a hero fights a bad guy is already been done. That is so broad its ridiculous. Also because in a book called the Bible good and evil fight. So then anytime a good vs evil fight goes on, its already been done.

Plus PLanet Hulk is not about Hulk being out of his league. When has he yet to be out of his league in the story? Hulk is depowered some but far from out of his league. Hulk is on a planet which he can reveal in. Also Hulk is only a slave because he chooses to be. If he wanted to he could break free, but he loves to smash to much. Plus he has a comradery with the slaves he fights with.

So when has this been done before, not being to general.

[agrich]

I'm really enjoying Planet Hulk, but I don't agree that it's terribly original.

The Hulk has certainly been exiled before - first to Counter-Earth, albeit briefly, in Hulk 157-158, and then to the Crossroads between dimensions, in Hulk 301-313, by Dr. Strange. There, too, he was frequently weaker than many of the aliens he came into contact with.

Planet Hulk is basically a mix of that concept with Russell Crowe's Gladiator (itself no doubt derived partially from other ideas, like Spartacus), or maybe an old Clint Eastwood film. Ultimate outsider starts out at rock bottom and gradually attracts some followers/loyalists, as he begins his climb to the top.

Not saying I'm not a big fan; I am.

EDIT: I hadn't even noticed Dr. Banner's post when I wrote mine. Guess I agree with him.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

How about the resurrection of Bucky that is actually GOOD.....

Bucky coming back was crap. He was dead so he should have stayed that way. End of story.

[DDM]

And Ed Brubaker ran off to Marvel.

Creators switch between companies all the time.

Comparing Grant Morrison to Ed Brubaker doesn't work. Grant Morrison fundamentally changed the X-Men for a short time before Marvel reverted them to type. Furthermore, Grant Morrison--along with Mark Waid & Geof Johns--are changing the DC Comics books with 52 & the One Year Later scenario. I think Grant Morrison got a better deal. Why? Brubaker will have the same oppressive editorial control that has started with Bob Harras in 1988. Nothing good will come of it in the long term due to editorial politics.

[Jake V]

Bucky coming back was crap. He was dead so he should have stayed that way. End of story.
Since you seem to be the expert, which comic did he die in? I always wanted to read that story.

[Wannabe]

Chuck Austen had alot of original ideas. Sure, they were all crap, but that's just the way it is.

Turn's out people don't really like original ideas that much.

[Kevinroc]

Comparing Grant Morrison to Ed Brubaker doesn't work. Grant Morrison fundamentally changed the X-Men for a short time before Marvel reverted them to type. Furthermore, Grant Morrison--along with Mark Waid & Geof Johns--are changing the DC Comics books with 52 & the One Year Later scenario. I think Grant Morrison got a better deal. Why? Brubaker will have the same oppressive editorial control that has started with Bob Harras in 1988. Nothing good will come of it in the long term due to editorial politics.

I know what Morrison is doing at DC (at least I know what has been announced). Batman, All-Star Superman, 52, Wildcats (part of the Wildstorm revamp).

I also know what Brubaker is doing at Marvel. Redefining Captain America and Daredevil. And based on Deadly Genesis, Brubaker will have more creative freedom than most X-writers. That's probably a good thing that he is friends with the EIC as well as folks like Bendis.

It's not as out there a comparison as you seem to think in terms of redefining the comic book universes. Just because Brubaker isn't writing Civil War doesn't mean he's doing nothing at Marvel. Just based off of Deadly Genesis, he killed Banshee and introduced the new Summers brother as well as a "lost generation" of X-Men (granted, some of them are dead).

[MarvelKnight]

Was Marville origional? I don't think I've read anything exactly like it before, it was pretty funny. The Call and The Call of Duty: Brotherhood were pretty nice.

[DDM]

Was Marville origional? I don't think I've read anything exactly like it before, it was pretty funny. The Call and The Call of Duty: Brotherhood were pretty nice.

Marville is a commercial about Marvel Comics. Bill Jemas' writing is similar if Wolfgang Puck wrote a comic book about his appliaces & recipes.

[Slap Nutz]

Just based off of Deadly Genesis, he killed Banshee and introduced the new Summers brother as well as a "lost generation" of X-Men (granted, some of them are dead).

And Marvel even let him use a generic dumb name like Kid Vulcan for the 3rd Summers brother. This means Brubaker is one of Marvel's big guns for sure.

[Den]

I thought Thunderbolts was pretty darn original, supervillains masquerading as heroes and discovering they liked being the good guys?

And, yeah, Runaways ranks up there.

[Doom]

Original ideas?

Well apart from the interesting spin on characters we've been seeing (Planet Hulk, Devil in Cell Block D, the New Warriors as a reality TV show) the more original ideas in the last year would probably be

Marvel Zombies (the worlds greatest heros...turned into zombies.)

Megamorphs (the worlds greatest heroes and the Hulk are given giant mechs.

Next WAVE (a hyper kinetic, somewhat tounge in cheek take on the Super Hero genre using established heroes.)

and the Sentry mini (okay it was a follow up to the last Sentry mini, but it's still a hell of a new concept.)

[Citizen V]

Marvel as a whole?

Secret Wars.

[Dr. Banner]

I'm really enjoying Planet Hulk, but I don't agree that it's terribly original.

The Hulk has certainly been exiled before - first to Counter-Earth, albeit briefly, in Hulk 157-158, and then to the Crossroads between dimensions, in Hulk 301-313, by Dr. Strange. There, too, he was frequently weaker than many of the aliens he came into contact with.

Planet Hulk is basically a mix of that concept with Russell Crowe's Gladiator (itself no doubt derived partially from other ideas, like Spartacus), or maybe an old Clint Eastwood film. Ultimate outsider starts out at rock bottom and gradually attracts some followers/loyalists, as he begins his climb to the top.

Not saying I'm not a big fan; I am.

EDIT: I hadn't even noticed Dr. Banner's post when I wrote mine. Guess I agree with him.

And I agree with you. Well said, my friend!

[agrich]

I thought Thunderbolts was pretty darn original, supervillains masquerading as heroes and discovering they liked being the good guys?


Good point. That was brilliant. Probably the only good thing to come out of the Heroes Reborn nonsense.

[The Shadow]

Morrison fundamentally changed the X-Men for a short time
How did he fundamentally change the X-Men?

[The Shadow]

I thought Thunderbolts was pretty darn original, supervillains masquerading as heroes and discovering they liked being the good guys?
I read Tbolts #1 when it first came out because a friend of mine kept harping at me to. I owned a store at the time and knew SOMETHING was up with them (but not what exactly) and we had 1 or 2 extra copies of #1 and 2... so I sat down and the ending of #1 blew me away!

I gotta agree with Tbolts!

[Clint Barton]

Thunderbolts was original, I'd agree.

I suppose I'd have to say what they did to Daimon Hellstorm was pretty original, given his time as a Defender and all that crap.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Since you seem to be the expert, which comic did he die in? I always wanted to read that story.


I never said I was an expert on Bucky. I just said his resurrection was crap and for that matter so is everyone BUT Jean Grey's(a Phoenix will rise from the ashes). If someone dies, they should stay dead. If not, death in comics is meaningless.

[DDM]

How did he fundamentally change the X-Men?


Cassandra Nova as Professor Xavier outed Xavier's secret & his school.
Mutants began to become the norm; whereas, the human population became the minority.
Emma Frost's psychic affair has long term consequences with Jean Grey (Phoenix) & Scott Summers (Cyclops); Frost remains Scott's current girlfriend to date as both are co-headmaters of Xavier's school.
Cassandra Nova sent the Shi'ar Empire into chaos.

[lordlad]

bucky never officially 'died' onscreen............his death is only in Cap's vague memory.

[Jake V]

Mutants began to become the norm; whereas, the human population became the minority.

I don't think it ever went this far. It was clear that humans eventually would become the minority, but mutant births never got to the point where they outnumbered human births. Hell, Morrison opened his run with wiping out half (or somewhere close to that) of the mutant population.

[Kevinroc]

Cassandra Nova as Professor Xavier outed Xavier's secret & his school.
Mutants began to become the norm; whereas, the human population became the minority.
Emma Frost's psychic affair has long term consequences with Jean Grey (Phoenix) & Scott Summers (Cyclops); Frost remains Scott's current girlfriend to date as both are co-headmaters of Xavier's school.
Cassandra Nova sent the Shi'ar Empire into chaos.


1: That was around the time that a lot of Marvel characters were "outed."

Such as Daredevil, Captain America and even Iron Man (at least for a time).

2: Mutants were shown as more of an actual minority and we saw quite a bit of the mutant subculture.

3: Scott's had other girlfriends before. Hell, he even had a wife before and left her for another woman (Jean, in this case).

4: The Shi'ar Empire has been in chaos before.

[Red State Cap]

bucky never officially 'died' onscreen............his death is only in Cap's vague memory.
Actually Bucky did die onscreen and stayed dead for 42 years.
As to the last original work I read from Marvel...hmm..."Kraven's Last Hunt," maybe.

RSC

[Strannik]

I can't help but think that most of these recent Marvel storylines have been done before and done better. That's why if you see me in a comic book store, I'm usually diving straight to the "Essentials" shelf instead of the one with the new stuff.

I dunno...am I just a bitter, old fanboy, or do I actually have a point?

You are a bitter old fanboy ;)

To give examples of some great, original concepts that came from Marvel recently:

Livewires
Runaways
Scorpion
Sentimel
Mastermind Excello and Great Video segments from the new Amazing Fantasy 25

[FrogMan]

NFL SuperPro

And about the Call of Duty miniseries (there were four I believe) are they any good? I've been thinking about ordering them form mycomicshop.

[Haunt]

they do it all the time. last time was Irredeemable Ant-Man for me; new twist in an old formula.

[ednemo]

Slovotsky's Law #1
What is originality? Undetected plagiarism.

Just about everything has been done. When someone comes up with a good idea it gets picked apart by people in the guise of their love for another creator.

Example:
Runaways is awesome! Kids fighting against their super-villain parents.

Post 1.
Runaways is just a repackaged Power Pack.

Post 2.
Vaughn is the best! Whedon sucks!

Post C.
Y is Vaughn's best work. And Whedon is gonna turn it into Buffy.

1, 2, and C are all examples of responses we have all seen...and added to out ignore lists.

[Reptisaurus!]

Squardon Supreme.

Current version?

Is a conceptual remake of a 20 year old Marvel series.

That version? Uses pretty much the same concept as Avengers annual # 2 which was published almost 20 years before THAT. It was also post-Moore and Gaiman's Miracleman, which dealt with many of the same concepts.

Great book, superbly executed, not even remotely original.

[Shellhead]

Current version?

Is a conceptual remake of a 20 year old Marvel series.

That version? Uses pretty much the same concept as Avengers annual # 2 which was published almost 20 years before THAT. It was also post-Moore and Gaiman's Miracleman, which dealt with many of the same concepts.

Great book, superbly executed, not even remotely original.

Very true, on all counts. Also, the Squadron Supreme themselves are blatantly based on DC's Justice League of America.

[Karl H]

Well if you hold to the theory that there are only 7 basic plots out there, then everything in literature is based upon one of those 7 themes...

[SalazarSleaze2]

I can't help but think that most of these recent Marvel storylines have been done before and done better. That's why if you see me in a comic book store, I'm usually diving straight to the "Essentials" shelf instead of the one with the new stuff.

I dunno...am I just a bitter, old fanboy, or do I actually have a point?


Bitter, old fanboy, imo.

No, She-hulk has been done better imho.

Agreed.
Much better.

[Verminous]

No, She-hulk has been done better imho.
Imho it hasn't:p

Who cares? They still have good well written titles, so I really could care less about them being completely original. You have to focus on what really matters.

I agree.;)

Who cares? They still have good well written titles, so I really could care less about them being completely original. You have to focus on what really matters.

Why would you try not to read Runaways it's fantastic. You can't be trying that hard, just don't buy it.
The Sentry will obviously be compared to Superman but I agree the execution of his introduction was very original.

Bucky coming back was crap. He was dead so he should have stayed that way. End of story.

Have you read the story? If you have and you didn't like it then I have to let you know that you are wrong, wrong, wrong.:D

Comparing Grant Morrison to Ed Brubaker doesn't work. Grant Morrison fundamentally changed the X-Men for a short time before Marvel reverted them to type. Furthermore, Grant Morrison--along with Mark Waid & Geof Johns--are changing the DC Comics books with 52 & the One Year Later scenario. I think Grant Morrison got a better deal. Why? Brubaker will have the same oppressive editorial control that has started with Bob Harras in 1988. Nothing good will come of it in the long term due to editorial politics.

From what I've read DC's editorial is much more strict than Marvel's, especially due to the structure of 52 and Countdown coming up. Grant Morrison doesn't get enough editorial control at DC. His recent Batman issue and the finale to Seven Soldiers being 2 examples that spring to mind recently. Brubaker certainly structures his stories better he always seems to know where he's taking his story. Grant Morrison is doing good work in 52 because he has othere writers around him to reign him in and because of the constraints of the story.
Oh and how can you fundamently change something for a short time:confused:

Actually Bucky did die onscreen and stayed dead for 42 years.
As to the last original work I read from Marvel...hmm..."Kraven's Last Hunt," maybe.

RSC

Nope the rocket was seen to blow up, Bucky wasn't.

[projectnrm]

Like it or not, House of M was pretty original.

Arbitrarily de-powering a good portion of your company's character base is a pretty inspired idea.

[Chiasm]

Like it or not, House of M was pretty original.

Arbitrarily de-powering a good portion of your company's character base is a pretty inspired idea.

Except it had already been done not so long ago when the High Evolutionary depowered all the mutants as chronicled across the X-books.

There was nothing original about House of M. Quicksilver being revealed as the bad guy - been there done that in the Avengers. Wanda being being nuttier than a squirrel - as chronicled in Avengers Disassembled look no further than many instances in the Avengers.

[Chiasm]

Marvel is scared to death to do anything original.

Right now they are hyping "Back in Black" as if its original and ignoring the contradiction in its title. Admittedly I'm excited because I always liked the black costume better but I'm not deluding myself into thinking there is anything original going on. Rather I'm completely realistic in that the only reason this is happening is that SpiderMan 3 comes out this spring and Spidey is going black in the movies so they want the comic to reflect this.

Cap being viewed as a bad guy. Look no further than Cap #333 when Cap was forced to step down and John Walker became the new Captain America.

Not saying DC is necessarily better. But mainstream comics have become utterly stale. The companies aren't about to mess with the cash cows that are the movies. Can't do a Morrison and utterly shake up things - must revert back to form quickly.

Marvel's idea of originality now is recyling an old idea in new wrapping paper (Back in Black or Cap as a bad guy) or reforming a bad guy into a good guy (and we've even been there and done that long ago when Sandman became a good guy as well as many of the Avengers).

Its all about keeping things more or less status quo now and keeping things recognizable to movie viewers (thus Spidey's black costume switch). After the debacle that was the original X-men movie and the X-comics which featured almost no characters from the movie Marvel isn't about to do anything groundbreaking that might mess with the movies.

[Reptisaurus!]

But, y'know, the original batch of Silver Age Marvel characters weren't all that original either.

The TONE of the books was original, completely different from anything that came before. And once you got a few years in and had Kirby firing on all cylinders, you got stuff like the Silver Surfer, which was a pretty damn unique concept.

But the first few Marvel characters? Not that conceptually unique, most of 'em.

Fantastic Four: A generic Marvel monster, a rip-off of a character from the forties, PLastic Man and ... well, I dunno if there'd been an invisible superhero before FF # 1. But three of the four were kinda chintzy.

Spider-man. ANOTHER radiation based origin, kinda like the Fantastic Four. And the idea of an insect themed superhero goes all the way back t' the Blue Beetle, who was the second superhero EVER to get his own book.

The fact that Spidey was a teenager and not a kid sidekick made him sort of unique, but there'd been a handful of teenage leads before, like the Star Spangled Kid and Robin.

The Hulk: Fairly generic monster, with the same origin as every. single. Movie monster of the time.

Thor: LOTS of elements either exactly the same or very, very close to Fawcett's Captain Marvel.

[lonesomefool]

If people bought new, original ideas and matierial in droves we would see more of it, as it is most people are perfectly happy picking up the latest issue of Superman or Fantastic Four and getting the same old same old, or old stories done in a new way. Not that I have a problem with that, as I am guilt of that as well.

[niall mc cann]

Like it or not, House of M was pretty original.

Arbitrarily de-powering a good portion of your company's character base is a pretty inspired idea.

Wow. Can't agree.

What elements of HoM do you consider original?

It's just that one of my biggest gripes about that story was that it was soooo hackneyed that it wasn't even worth laughing at.

Very, very cliched.

I'd say that there's plenty of value coming out of Marvel right now, for what it's worth. There's plenty of stories worth reading. i think this is kind of a strange complaint for this era of Marvel - i got into comics in the 90s, when homogeneity was the way to go... it's comparitively a very versatile output these days.

And for what it's worth, i totally agree with the poster that Marville was original (as much as i read of it), which goes to show... maybe sometimes a new take on an old concept is better than throwing out something totally new and half-baked.

[The Shadow]

Considering Marvel is placing many of these stories as Essentials &/or TPB format is telling.

Yes... it tells me they want to make money.

DC is doing the same thing.

[Shellhead]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned Marvels yet.The story of a bystander in the Marvel Universe through the years and how these heroes and events have effected not only himself,but the general public was pretty new at the time.

Ultimates would have to be up there as well.Sure the Avengers have been revamped before (Heroes Reborn) but never with this amount of relevance,realism and attention to character.


I agree with you about Marvels, that was a refreshing way to show us the Marvel Universe from a very different viewpoint.

As for Ultimates, that is the very opposite of originality. The basic concept is a drastic do-over of the Avengers, without even bothering to re-name the characters. The only significant difference is the the Ultimates are jerks instead of heroes.

[BoosterBronze]

As for Ultimates, that is the very opposite of originality. The basic concept is a drastic do-over of the Avengers, without even bothering to re-name the characters. The only significant difference is the the Ultimates are jerks instead of heroes.

I disagree.

I think the "Liberators" storyline was very original and different.
I think playing Thor as an ambiguous possible mental patient was original and brilliant.

[Keith_Martineau]

Wow, this is the most mastubatory thread I've seen in awhile.

"Marvels stuff is good, I like it!"
"Nuh-uh! It's bad and unoriginal and I'd rather read essentials!"
"Yer a bitter old fanboy! Look what these writers have done!"
"Marvel is stuck in a crappy editorially driven machine and it sucks!"
"You suck!"
"Yer mom!"

And so on and so forth.

Who cares? Nothing is original, it's all been done before, somewhere, better. But who cares?
If you like it, fantastic. Keep supporting it.
If you don't like it? ALSO fantastic. Don't buy it just to have the right to complain.

How's about someone start an original thread? I've seen all these arguments before, and done better ;)

[Shyft]

Marvel currently does not have any original ideas of its own.

except, as people have mentioned...

Runaways
Alias
Powers
The Sentry
Marvel Zombies
The End Series
The Illuminati
Planet Hulk
Annihilation
House of M/Decimation


I think they are doing just fine. Things dont have to be as mind-boglingly complicated as Infinity Crisis/One Year on/52 to be original.

[Shyft]

Wow. Can't agree.

What elements of HoM do you consider original?

It's just that one of my biggest gripes about that story was that it was soooo hackneyed that it wasn't even worth laughing at.

Very, very cliched.


What other company/universe/story line sees the universes character being given their perfect lives, then being faced with the option of trying to go back, and even if that can?then ends with a group who have been CENTRAL to a comic book universe basically ceasing to exist? Whether you thought the story-line was GOOD or not is another matter. It has some very original elements to it.

[Haunt]

What other company/universe/story line sees the universes character being given their perfect lives, then being faced with the option of trying to go back.

sounds like that X-Men Annual when the Gamemaster gave the mutants perfect lives and they fought against it. or that time Exodus eliminated racism from Genosha. or remember the one where Morgan LeFey used her sorcery to create a new reality for the Avengers and Cap and Hawkeye had to win people to their side?

[DDM]

The Sentry

The Sentry is Marvel's Superman. He is not the first since Squardon Supreme's Hyperion I, Squadron Sinister's Hyperion II (created by the Grandmaster), & the Shi'ar Imperial Guard's Gladiator (analog of the Legion of the Super-Heroes' Superboy) pre-date the Sentry.

Marvel Zombies

You obviously have not read any of Marvel's horror titles from the 70's such as Tomb of Dracula, Wereworlf By Night, & Marvel's adult horror magazines.

The End Series

The End stories are nothing more than What If...? stories. What If...? pre-dates The End by 30 years.

The Illuminati

Not original. The Illumanti is just making conspiracy stories applied to the Marvel Universe. Conspiracy nuts have been talking about conspiracies for decades. Applying conspiracies to Marvel is a bad move really as it makes the heroes less heroic.

Planet Hulk

The Hulk spent plenty of time off Earth in other dimensions 30 years ago. He met a green woman named Jarella. She died. He loved her.

House of M/Decimation

Another alternate reality tale using the Scarlet Witch as a deus ex machina to diminish the mutant franchise. The last time an alternate reality happened in the mainstream Marvel Universe was Age of Apocalypse. And the genesis for all of this is Uncanny X-Men #141-142 "Days of Future Past" using a dysopia. House of M turned the alternate reality into a mutant paradise. Wow, that's so original.

[Shyft]

The Sentry is Marvel's Superman. He is not the first since Squardon Supreme's Hyperion I, Squadron Sinister's Hyperion II (created by the Grandmaster), & the Shi'ar Imperial Guard's Gladiator (analog of the Legion of the Super-Heroes' Superboy) pre-date the Sentry.

who is also schizophrenic, has an evil alter-ego formed from his own mind, has light-controlling powers, and was a pathetic weakling until he stole some super-serum. yeah, hes EXACTLY like superman.



You obviously have not read any of Marvel's horror titles from the 70's such as Tomb of Dracula, Wereworlf By Night, & Marvel's adult horror magazines.

How does that make Marvel Zombies unoriginal? because they are the same genre? If you do things by genre, how can ANYTHING new ever be original? how can any high fantasy story be original when tolkein did it in the 40's and the vikings did in in ancient history? Show me another comic universe where well known heroes have become zombies, end up eating a giant cosmic entity, and go off into space and the new devourer of worlds, a cosmic balance mechanism.



The End stories are nothing more than What If...? stories. What If...? pre-dates The End by 30 years.

except What if?... show a myriad of different possibilites and conclusions to different story lines. THe End is a series dedicated to showing how well known heroes of the Marvel Universe meet their fate. never been done before.


Not original. The Illumanti is just making conspiracy stories applied to the Marvel Universe. Conspiracy nuts have been talking about conspiracies for decades. Applying conspiracies to Marvel is a bad move really as it makes the heroes less heroic.

i cant believe this one....There have been conspiracies before, so therefore a comic book about it ISNT ORIGINAL! Again, YES conspiracies existed before this book, but the idea of a group of comic book leaders joining together and having a secret hand in well known event has never been made into a book before. the second half of your comment is about your personal enjoyment of the book, which has zero to do with its originality.



The Hulk spent plenty of time off Earth in other dimensions 30 years ago. He met a green woman named Jarella. She died. He loved her.

Im not really familiar with the Hulk's history, so im willing to yield on this one.



Another alternate reality tale using the Scarlet Witch as a deus ex machina to diminish the mutant franchise. The last time an alternate reality happened in the mainstream Marvel Universe was Age of Apocalypse. And the genesis for all of this is Uncanny X-Men #141-142 "Days of Future Past" using a dysopia. House of M turned the alternate reality into a mutant paradise. Wow, that's so original.

Hang on, has the fake mutant paradise story line been used before? no. so is it original? yes. And i like how you neglect the bit about Decimation too. Has another story-line PERMANENTLY wiped out a massive chunk of its hero/villain population? because im not aware of it.

[niall mc cann]

Hang on, has the fake mutant paradise story line been used before? no. so is it original? yes.

That's just factually incorrect. Haunt gave you list (to which i'll add the time Glorian, The Shaper of Dreams gave the Gen X mutants their hearts desires and the Hulk's stints as ruler of the Microverse basically amount to Utopia-achieved stories, too, though they're not specifically about mutants).

And i like how you neglect the bit about Decimation too. Has another story-line PERMANENTLY wiped out a massive chunk of its hero/villain population? because im not aware of it

Nothing's permanent. And i don't notice any major impact from the "massive chunk". Anyone can quote a death toll figure. A new number doesn't count as "originality".

[Haunt]

Hang on, has the fake mutant paradise story line been used before? no. so is it original? yes. And i like how you neglect the bit about Decimation too. Has another story-line PERMANENTLY wiped out a massive chunk of its hero/villain population? because im not aware of it.

well yeah. the High Evolutionary wiped out all of the mutants a while back.

[Shyft]

i hadnt seen Haunt's response, so i apologise.

As to it being permanent, everyone at Marvel has so far said that they have no intention of re-powering the mutants. Obviously when Queseda leaves this could change, but for now its as permanent as anything in Comics ever is, which i think is a pretty bold step.

And as for numbers, obviously we dont know every single mutant who lost their powers. we do know bucket loads that did. It was also revealed in the recent X-Men annual that no more mutants were even being born...so it means that all the new heroes we see are going to have more interesting creation stories than " s/he is a mutant". Again, whether you like the story-line itself or not, i cant see how Marvel can be accused of un-originality.

[Haunt]

i hadnt seen Haunt's response, so i apologise.

As to it being permanent, everyone at Marvel has so far said that they have no intention of re-powering the mutants. Obviously when Queseda leaves this could change, but for now its as permanent as anything in Comics ever is,

*Blob laugh* can someone please point the kind gentleman to Son of M, X-Factor, Quesada's own comments about Jubilee, and that New Avengers arc where Magneto probably got his powers back? don't fall for the semantics-trick.

[niall mc cann]

i hadnt seen Haunt's response, so i apologise.

As to it being permanent, everyone at Marvel has so far said that they have no intention of re-powering the mutants. Obviously when Queseda leaves this could change, but for now its as permanent as anything in Comics ever is, which i think is a pretty bold step.

And as for numbers, obviously we dont know every single mutant who lost their powers. we do know bucket loads that did. It was also revealed in the recent X-Men annual that no more mutants were even being born...so it means that all the new heroes we see are going to have more interesting creation stories than " s/he is a mutant". Again, whether you like the story-line itself or not, i cant see how Marvel can be accused of un-originality.


Again, i'm not saying it's unoriginal because i don't like the story, i'm saying it's unoriginal because it's not the first time it happened. Mutants have been wiped out before.

Now, i don't like the story, but that's neither here nor there. I actually think marvel is putting out some great stuff these days. I'm loving She-Hulk, Astonishing X-men, The Punisher, Captain America. There's great work being done, and some of it is inspired. HoM, however, was not original. Whatever angle you look at ou it from, it's been done before. Even if you like the story (which is fine and your prerogative and i'm not telling you you shouldn't) you can't lay claim to it being original.

I don't think Astonishing X-Men is original, though i love it. Hell, the fact that it feels slightly claremont-esque is three quarters of the appeal for me!

[projectnrm]

Except it had already been done not so long ago when the High Evolutionary depowered all the mutants as chronicled across the X-books.

There was nothing original about House of M. Quicksilver being revealed as the bad guy - been there done that in the Avengers. Wanda being being nuttier than a squirrel - as chronicled in Avengers Disassembled look no further than many instances in the Avengers.

While the High Evolutionary thing was so brief that I completely forgot it, this 198 thing appears to have some legs. I don't see Marvel going away from that for the foreseeable future.

Also, Quicksilver wasn't the "bad guy" in House of M...no one was. It was a story about a really conflicted family working out their drama on the largest scale possible.

It was more original than I think you give Marvel credit for.

[Haunt]

While the High Evolutionary thing was so brief that I completely forgot it, this 198 thing appears to have some legs. I don't see Marvel going away from that for the foreseeable future.

Also, Quicksilver wasn't the "bad guy" in House of M...no one was. It was a story about a really conflicted family working out their drama on the largest scale possible.

sort of like Michael Korvac wasn't a "bad guy" either.

[Shyft]

*Blob laugh* can someone please point the kind gentleman to Son of M, X-Factor, Quesada's own comments about Jubilee, and that New Avengers arc where Magneto probably got his powers back? don't fall for the semantics-trick.

so thats 4 characters out of how many?

[Haunt]

so thats 4 characters out of how many?

just one character getting their powers back shoots your argument out of the water. and there will be more; trust me.

[projectnrm]

sort of like Michael Korvac wasn't a "bad guy" either.

I wouldn't lump Pietro in there with Mike Korvac.

That guy was a bastard.

[niall mc cann]

so thats 4 characters out of how many?

The numbers are irrelevant. If every time a someone feels like a mutant needs repowered then a mutant get repowered, how can you say the depowerment is significant?

Every depowered mutant is a repowerment waiting to happen. In fact, it's already started - one by one, they're getting repowered already. So it lasted, how long, exactly? A year and a half?

If the only difference between this one and the last one is timescale... does changing the dates really constitute originality?

[projectnrm]

The numbers are irrelevant. If every time a someone feels like a mutant needs repowered then a mutant get repowered, how can you say the depowerment is significant?

Every depowered mutant is a repowerment waiting to happen. In fact, it's already started - one by one, they're getting repowered already. So it lasted, how long, exactly? A year and a half?

If the only difference between this one and the last one is timescale... does changing the dates really constitute originality?

Well I think that the de-powering wasn't really meant the way you're interpreting it.

The purpose behind it was to make mutants rare and special again. That was something that wasn't really happening because there were so many of them running around.

True, the occasional mutant is going to be re-powered every now and then, but don't expect the population to be restored to pre-House of M levels for a long time.

[Haunt]

Well I think that the de-powering wasn't really meant the way you're interpreting it.

The purpose behind it was to make mutants rare and special again. That was something that wasn't really happening because there were so many of them running around.

True, the occasional mutant is going to be re-powered every now and then, but don't expect the population to be restored to pre-House of M levels for a long time.

they are rare but no longer special because the potential for mutancy is gone. that it was a naturally occurring stage of evolution is what made it special. now they are just Inhumans-lite.

[projectnrm]

they are rare but no longer special because the potential for mutancy is gone. that it was a naturally occurring stage of evolution is what made it special. now they are just Inhumans-lite.

Good point.

[Reptisaurus!]

I agree with you about Marvels, that was a refreshing way to show us the Marvel Universe from a very different viewpoint.

As for Ultimates, that is the very opposite of originality. The basic concept is a drastic do-over of the Avengers, without even bothering to re-name the characters. The only significant difference is the the Ultimates are jerks instead of heroes.

Well, Tom Clancy-ish (I think, never read any) military fiction with superheroes is new to Marvel, at least. Spy fiction, sure, and wartime vigilantes who operated under combat conditions, but I can't think of any Marvel lead characters who were formally military. DC had Captain Atom and (*snicker*) the super-Blackhawks, but I've never read either and can't compare. In fact, the idea of superheroes who are answerable too he government.... Hell, answerable too anyone is pretty novel. One of the basic tropes of the superhero power fantasy is "Nobody can tell me what to do!" The character's powers and names aren't original, but it's pretty darn different in setting/genre and tone from anything I've ever read.

[Euchre0]

When DareDevil's identity was revealed to the public, it wasn't very original, I'll admit. However, to not take it back and let it completely change the dynamic of the character seems pretty original.

[Jadeskies]

Give me a heaping spoonful of Deadpool any day. I espeacially liked the Luckman & Lake arc and the battle with Deadpool Vrs Thor where it is revealed that DeadPool (being an agent of Chaos) is the son of Loki, or is he? :D

[Alex Dragon]

Marvel does and tries to do "original" stuff all the time but it seems that fans don't want "original" they want the same old same old stuff they've seen before with slight variations. If a Marvel does anythig too new or different many fans tend to ignore it. I haven't read most of the posts in this thread but I'd bet most of the "original" titles/stuff people are naming aren't/weren't big sellers.

RUNAWAYS is a great example. It's a really well written and well drawn book that basically dosen't sell because the characters aren't wearing spandex and look the parts of typically drawn superheroes. YOUNG AVENGERS is a fairly simliar type of book but because the characters are based on existing heroes and wear costumes the book is a hit.