Reactions to Robin 150?

[Damo]

This'll probably be incorporated into the other Robin 150 thread, but okay.

Reactions?

[Blight]

I'll be curious to see how many didn't like the results presented in this issue.

[Jack]

I did see it coming and I didn't like it. There's a lot of potential there, storywise, but it just isn't Cassandra. And I was never really that big a fan of her, but it still just sucks.

The direction it seems to be going is to make Cassandra into Tim's "Catwoman", his half-love interest half-nemesis, which could be really good. But was it necessary to kill Cassandra's character in the process?

Oh well.

[Blight]

Yeah but many fans did see this coming. Some have even compared this current tale in Robin to Ra's Al Ghul's first appearance. It's almost scene for scene almost just without Cassie calling Tim, "beloved or detective." I'm still waiting for:

"Do you expect me to talk Cassandra?"

"No Mr. Drake I expect you to die."


:p

[fuaak]

The worst mischaracterization since Leslie the Childkiller, enabled via the most damaging, heavy-handed retcon in recent memory? We've got a winner here, folks.

Fact: "Annalea" isn't logically possible. She invalidates Batgirl's entire origin story and David Cain's whole life by simply existing.

[Blight]

The worst mischaracterization since Leslie the Childkiller, enabled via the most damaging, heavy-handed retcon in recent memory? We've got a winner here, folks.

Fact: "Annalea" isn't logically possible. She invalidates Batgirl's entire origin story and David Cain's whole life by simply existing.


We could do facts all day on why this issue was so wrong. So want to do facts all day to boast our post counts? :p

[Lord Darkwolf]

..... I dont trust my mouth to talk right now .




When it takes several tries just to be able to finish reading the damn book without your blood pressure shooting up you KNOW something is wrong .

[Mia]

Does anyone know how long this story/arc will run. The previews don't tell me much.

[Young Avenger]

I hated it. It was bad enough that the art was god awful but the assassination of Cassie's character did it for me. She went insane and killed her sister for no reason at all.

[Lex]

I didn't see it coming and I didn't really have a problem with it.

[Forsaken_One]

I saw it coming but, honestly, don't care too much. It's a bummer that there won't be any cool stories with her as a hero from now on (probably) but hey, it's just a comic. I didn't like it, per se, but neither am I foaming at the mouth over the injustice of the (comic) world.

[Blight]

Does anyone know how long this story/arc will run. The previews don't tell me much.


Next issue is the conclusion of this arc.

[Damo]

I hated it. It was bad enough that the art was god awful

Really? godawful? Do you mind if I ask why you thought it was that bad?

I mean, I'm not in love with it myself, but I thought it was perfectly acceptable. Batman in the flashback looked bad (as did the attempt at young Tim), but comparing that bit to the earlier appearance of Batman, I think Williams was trying to emulate an earlier version of Batman. Or something. But I thought it had solid layouts that flowed well, a good grasp of perspective, each character looked unique (and, with the exception of Cain becoming kinda vampirish, and Cass' silly long hair, were pretty true to past looks) and I never had a problem understanding the emotions (as much as I may have disliked them), and I thought there were good depictions of props and background. The style didn't work for me at all (big noses everywhere...), but I thought it was all right to get the work done. Nothing to blatantly say he shouldn't be in comics, even if I didn't particularly like the style. A heck of a lot better than the guy on Nightwing that can't draw action, has a poor grasp of perspective, keeps forgetting which is Jason and which is Dick, and is about 50-50 with matching expressions to the written emotions.

[muimi]

Saw it coming a mile away, prayed that the Bat Office would give at try to explain themselves. The fact that Batgirl had been cancelled and that Cass was NO WHERE to be seen during IC didn't bode well. It could have been a potentially good story if they had done the proper groundwork, which they didn't.

[Dennis K]

Only started reading it with the the launch of OYL. Liked it so far.

[wonk]

From a discussion of Robin #150 on the Millarworld forums.

However muddled the last Batgirl story arc was, Cassandra’s realizations and decisions make her course of action since them semi-rational. I was looking forward to her becoming a strong, interesting, intelligent semi-sympathetic villain whose experiences led to a rational break with the Batman & Company. For Beechum to reduce her to yet another psycho, really shows a painful lack of imagination, and I do hope there is a backlash, and a strong one from the readers. I really wish Willingham had stayed on this book – he would have done a much better job picking up where Gabrych left off on Batgirl.

Fair point, … Lets say she concluded that being a hero and a killer are not mutually exclusive. She comes to believe that some evil really needs a more permanent solution. I could see that. You could also see potential conflict if she kept the Batgirl identity, but broke from Batman's methods.

I’m sorry to say that this smacks of the kind of move editors and writers make to increase sales by generating ill-concieved (or in this case, executed) controversy. I hate to do this, but I encourage Batgirl readers to write in and protest this characterization, and yes, drop the book, at least for a short while, to lend some force to their arguments.

If you were a Batgirl reader, and still like the character, please consider writing into DC and voicing a protest.

Thank you.

Wonk

[Blight]

I'll probably wait until the final issue of this arc. I know it's late to do such a thing but I want all the answers before I start writing a letter to DC :p

[fuaak]

The sad thing is, in the beginning (Rb #148) I was cautiously for this plot, because done right, "Cass takes over the LoA" could have been the best thing done with her, ever. She could have turned the LoA into a force of good, or infiltrated it for some even bigger goal, and it would prove that she's not the dumb kung fu chick she's often taken as. The only thing they had to do was ensure that it was the same character we're familiar with there with the same goals, having taken a logical next step in her life.

Instead, we get some kind of an evil twin from a Star Trek style mirror universe, with all the motivations and characteristics upside down. This isn't a Cassandra who has taken her mission to the next level, this is an anti-Cassandra who's undoing everything she believed in. And seriously, what is this "long lost sister" crap? It's not necessary and it doesn't fit in her or her dad's history, all it does is make her look like a spoiled brat with a princess complex.

[Jack]

Thinking about it, I've decided to keep hoping this isn't Cassandra, but rather her sister. If you think of it from that perspective, then the motivations would actually make sense. There are a couple of things that might hint at this - Cassandra never calls Robin "Tim", there's still the mystery of what was given to the snitch and there was what looked like a short-haired Cassandra in 148.. Sigh.

[d newton]

If you were a Batgirl reader, and still like the character, please consider writing into DC and voicing a protest.
I really don't get why Batgirl readers will want to protest - nearly all of the issues from 60 onwards were so boring!

[fuaak]

I really don't get why Batgirl readers will want to protest...
Because this isn't the same damn character. This retarded, boring, ranting, cackling, petty, childish, not even slightly heroic martial arts villain who poses as Cassandra doesn't resemble her in anything but looks.

"Cassandra takes over LoA" would be a good story. "Some completely standard two bit Talia ripoff who calls herself 'Cassandra' for some reason but doesn't act even remotely like Cassandra would in that situation takes over LoA" is a piss-poor story.

[wonk]

I received the following via email:

Won, I'd rather take this issue over most of Nightwing's run from 71 up plus 118 to 120.

I have no basis for judging that comment. I dropped Nightwing from the pull list soon after Dixon/Land left the title for Crossgen, though I continued to pick up issues now and then.

I still have to beg to differ. The script to Robin #150 has it's virtues (there is nothing wrong with the art) but by choosing to portray Cass as a psycho (in an effort to explain her "reaching out" to Tim) Beechum and the editors must have known they would anger Cassandra's fans, including myself). As I've said, I don't mind Cass crossing over the side of the demons - that's actually a very interesting twist. However given the way the Batgirl series ended, I saw it as a rational decision born of conviction, not psychosis. I really do not care for the loonier aspects of Beechum's portrayal of Cassandra, and i really hope it does not stick.

NOTE: D. Newton - I would have replied via email, but I got a message my attempts did not get through to you. My apologies.

[gloss]

Young Avenger: I hated it. It was bad enough that the art was god awful
Really? godawful? Do you mind if I ask why you thought it was that bad?
I mean, I'm not in love with it myself, but I thought it was perfectly acceptable.
I agree; the art was the saving grace for me in this issue. I *like* Williams' slightly-rounded style and the expressiveness of his characters' faces. And his action sequences - Tim flipping through the laser beams - work really well for me.

[Ovid]

I didn't see this coming and didn't like it. Anyway, I've reviewed it here (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?p=1216751). Any feedback would be welcome. I'm not overly familiar with Cass's background (just what I've picked up from summaries/bios etc.) so comments about whether my reservations are correct would be especially appreciated. Thanks! :)

[Young Avenger]

Really? godawful? Do you mind if I ask why you thought it was that bad?

I mean, I'm not in love with it myself, but I thought it was perfectly acceptable. Batman in the flashback looked bad (as did the attempt at young Tim), but comparing that bit to the earlier appearance of Batman, I think Williams was trying to emulate an earlier version of Batman. Or something. But I thought it had solid layouts that flowed well, a good grasp of perspective, each character looked unique (and, with the exception of Cain becoming kinda vampirish, and Cass' silly long hair, were pretty true to past looks) and I never had a problem understanding the emotions (as much as I may have disliked them), and I thought there were good depictions of props and background. The style didn't work for me at all (big noses everywhere...), but I thought it was all right to get the work done. Nothing to blatantly say he shouldn't be in comics, even if I didn't particularly like the style. A heck of a lot better than the guy on Nightwing that can't draw action, has a poor grasp of perspective, keeps forgetting which is Jason and which is Dick, and is about 50-50 with matching expressions to the written emotions.

I'm shallow when it comes to art. I didn't like how Williams gave Robin such a huge nose and how bad Batman looked. He makes Robin look like some old guy pretending to be a Teenager. Whatever happened to the guy who drew issue #148? I liked his art a lot more.

[d newton]

Because this isn't the same character. This retarded, boring, ranting, cackling, petty, childish, not even slightly heroic martial arts villain who poses as Cassandra doesn't resemble her in anything but looks.
How do you know this isn't the same character? Losing your best friend, having your home town destroyed, getting killed then brought back by a Lazarus pit would make anyone go nuts!

Won - I received your email, thanks.

[Jmacq1]

How do you know this isn't the same character? Losing your best friend, having your home town destroyed, getting killed then brought back by a Lazarus pit would make anyone go nuts!

Won - I received your email, thanks.

Why is it that no one remembers that Lazarus Pit insanity is only -temporary-?

Cassandra went through all that, and seemed perfectly sane at the end of her last issue.

Tim went through all of it except the getting killed/Lazarus Pit part, he's still competent and heroic. But then again Bruce remembered to take him on the little "52 Week World Tour" with Dick.

Any number of heroes have gone through similar tragedies and emerged relatively unscathed. But Cassandra can't? Baloney, I say.

[Damo]

How do you know this isn't the same character? Losing your best friend, having your home town destroyed, getting killed then brought back by a Lazarus pit would make anyone go nuts!



And were that the explanation given, instead of "I found out Cain trained someone else" then people might be a little less peeved.

[Blight]

How do you know this isn't the same character? Losing your best friend, having your home town destroyed, getting killed then brought back by a Lazarus pit would make anyone go nuts!


Well, because she would be stating her case much like that.. instead of.. CAIN DOESN'T LOVE ME! GRR.. I'll take over the LoA just to spite him! And it'll be me and Robbie poo forever and ever.

Though I can see why she would do this to Tim. Tim's all she has now other than Barbara. Though again, you think she make the Bludhaven point in her little speech to Tim instead of, Cain didn't love me.. he had another kid. Grr.. that ticks me off.

And as I do hope that this isn't the same Cassie that the part of knowing Navajo (again how come she didn't use it before and gee this would have been good news if BARBARA KNEW THIS WHEN TEACHING HER HOW TO READ! I'm sorry I couldn't resist that. :rolleyes: )

[d newton]

And were that the explanation given, instead of "I found out Cain trained someone else" then people might be a little less peeved.
3 issues into a new writer's run and all people can say is that one of their favourite characters has been ruined beyond repair.

[heretic]

This'll probably be incorporated into the other Robin 150 thread, but okay.

Reactions?
I was begging, begging, for this to be a Red Herring.

Given how mangled the characterisation and backsory was I still wonder if it is, but I'm not going to help with Dido's salary anymore.

HTG

[heretic]

Only started reading it with the the launch of OYL. Liked it so far.
Ever read Batgirl?

HTG

[Damo]

3 issues into a new writer's run and all people can say is that one of their favourite characters has been ruined beyond repair.

Funny how a thing like ruining favorite character overshadows things like "he writes Tim's lines pretty well".

I was almost going to say "he's got a good ear for dialogue," then I remember where he wrote Cass' lines and had to scratch that.

But I wouldn't say "beyond repair". A truly imaginitive writer on the book could repair that damage rather quickly (and without having to resort to contrivances like "evil twin" or "clayface").

[wonk]

Elsewhere a friend wrote:

I read the issue yesterday and, I have to say, I kinda liked it. Yeah, I think the turn of events was a bit odd considering a lot of Cass's development happened off-camera and in the last few issues of her series.

There's no question the new team has it's strengths. Beechum certainly plots well, as his scripts have room for generous, fun action scenes for the penciller to play with. Very Dixon like.

However,...I agree... that Cass was acting a lil too crazy. Personally, I think she should've been as cold & cool as her mother. And this development about her wanting Tim to be with her is out of left field. I mean, yeah....it kinda makes sense based on what she said but, if she means in a romantic sense, then it really doesn't make any sense.

It's the characterization that makes my eyes turn red. An over-reaction? Maybe. I did what i could to push people to write in as a response. I don't expect anyone to "back off" or anything like that. I hope they just bury the characterization once the arc is over if not the change in Cassandra's circumstances. In terms of Beechum's Robin, I miss the way Willingham wrote him. Beechum's Robin isn't as confident or as independent nor as wily.

Finally,...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/connorhawke/civilwarbanner.jpg

[wonk]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/connorhawke/civilwarbanner.jpg

[Rylon]

Funny how a thing like ruining favorite character overshadows things like "he writes Tim's lines pretty well".That's just funny. True, but funny.

I'm a Tim fan. If the situation was reversed, and Tim was turned into a crappy villain for no reason in someone else's title after his was canceled, I'd be overturning batmobiles in the street.

The current Batgirl was introduced just as I was leaving comics for a game called D&D. So I'm not particularly attached to the character. I was hoping, however, for a better plot than "former friend turns into bad guy." Isn't there enough of that?

[Lord Ichabod]

I read the last six or so issues of batgirl recently and have been reading robin just now and I don't really mind what's going on. I just think that cass' lines are on the weak side. "omg loser you're batman's tool wake up." it's tired. If robin falls for it I'm dropping the book, it's just that silly to me.

[Rylon]

Tim's got experiance dealing with crappy villians who try to turn him to the dark side(tm). It never goes well for the other peroson. ;)

[d newton]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/connorhawke/civilwarbanner.jpg
I'm laughing at this banner because it's wrong!

[Blight]

I'm laughing at this banner because it's wrong!


Yeah um why is Electra aka the Jen Garner version in there? :confused: Why not use the better comic version? :confused:

[Damo]

*Blinks at banner.* um... yeah. No. I mean, whatever rocks your boat, but I'd prefer not to see that thing too much. Liiiiitle too much random visuals with no content, probably does more harm than good if you want people to think you're serious and put real thought into what you're saying.

Also, waaaay too big. When your banner's bigger than your post? That's a bad thing.

[twilight]

I despise you DC.

[Blight]

*Blinks at banner.* um... yeah. No. I mean, whatever rocks your boat, but I'd prefer not to see that thing too much. Liiiiitle too much random visuals with no content, probably does more harm than good if you want people to think you're serious and put real thought into what you're saying.

Also, waaaay too big. When your banner's bigger than your post? That's a bad thing.

Yeah maybe more focus on Cassie. Like say her stating, "I don't kill." ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Cassie/idontkill0uy.jpg

[longshot7]

I read the last few issues of Batgirl, and while that in no way makes me an expert on Cassandra's character, I really liked what I saw and wanted to learn more about her. But at the time, she seemed like a smart, cool badass who was starting to get "on her path." That's why this heel turn seems so out of character. Sure, a lot can happen in a year (a year in which Batman took the two male members of his Batman family, but not her.) Even if she loses the cowl (which was plain awful by the way), I'd like to see more of this warrior figuring out her life and being "on the path." Now that seems impossible. It's too bad.

[Chris Hansbrough]

my problem isn;''t with cass being evil. that's dumb yes but it's more with the arc and the storytelling quality as a whole. I lse a lot of respect for all the characters involved with things like this. The main problem is that there really was no mystery. it was so brow beatingly obvious right from the get-go that there was no mystery. Robin wasn't the great boy detactive in this. I think he might be functionally retarded when it comes to answering 2+2.

Which is sad because I really did love this arc right up till the end of that last issue. I'll keep buying it out of faith that there has to be something more but I'm pretty sure this helped it find it's way right off my pull

[Nick Kal]

Yeah maybe more focus on Cassie. Like say her stating, "I don't kill." ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Cassie/idontkill0uy.jpg

Can't characters... develop? *Gasp*

I mean... I'm sure Charles Manson didn't know he would be a murderer when he was twelve.

[Jmacq1]

Can't characters... develop? *Gasp*

I mean... I'm sure Charles Manson didn't know he would be a murderer when he was twelve.

Except that this isn't "development". It's "regression". And if you'd been paying attention to the arguments, you'd know that.

[Forsaken_One]

Actually unknowingly killing someone, then regretting it, working to avoid it, then deciding that it wasn't that bad is still development, even if it's in a direction you don't like. The bigger issue, I think, is how sudden the shift is in real-time. One month she's still against killing, then she seems to throw Shiva into a spike, then Shiva's revealed as alive, then Cassandra's a pissy little JAP who gets her giggles from killing people who she's not even paid to kill.

I mean, if she'd started out with torturing people in her own book, maybe using extreme modes of pain to get information, then moved on to killing child rapists and whatnot, then killed a few supervillians and, eventually, killing those she was jealous of it'd be a different story. As is it went from innocent to not innocent but trying to atone to happy killer lady.

That said, I'm still waiting until the end of this arc before I judge. And even then the man writes a mean Tim Drake, which is the biggest priority for me. You know, this being the Robin title.

[Nick Kal]

Except that this isn't "development". It's "regression". And if you'd been paying attention to the arguments, you'd know that.

I see... because you say it's regression then it must be so... ;)

[Jmacq1]

I see... because you say it's regression then it must be so... ;)

No more so than it's development because -you- say it is.

It's "regression" because the character went from someone that killed, to someone with one of the strongest "anti-killing" ethics in the entire damn DCU, to a wanton killer. It's "regression" because it completely pisses on the entire "Batgirl" series that I spent a couple hundred of my hard-earned dollars on over the past few years. But I'm guessing you didn't actually read the series, since if you -had- you might have a clue as to why this portrayal is so completely, mind-numbingly stupid. As many have stated, it's a character that looks like Cassandra Cain and claims to be her, yet has absolutely nothing else in common with the character that several of us invested in as readers.

I may be hoping that the end of this arc has some pleasant surprises left in store, but quite frankly, DC has spent all of its' "credit" in the last few years. I have yet to find a recent instance where a title or story arc that I expected to end in a "whimper" instead of a "bang" failed to do so. So no, sorry, DC doesn't get any slack from me. I'm assuming the worst and sticking to it until they prove otherwise, because the "worst" is all too often what we get out of situations like this.

[Nick Kal]

No more so than it's development because -you- say it is.

It's "regression" because the character went from someone that killed, to someone with one of the strongest "anti-killing" ethics in the entire damn DCU, to a wanton killer. It's "regression" because it completely pisses on the entire "Batgirl" series that I spent a couple hundred of my hard-earned dollars on over the past few years. But I'm guessing you didn't actually read the series, since if you -had- you might have a clue as to why this portrayal is so completely, mind-numbingly stupid. As many have stated, it's a character that looks like Cassandra Cain and claims to be her, yet has absolutely nothing else in common with the character that several of us invested in as readers.

I may be hoping that the end of this arc has some pleasant surprises left in store, but quite frankly, DC has spent all of its' "credit" in the last few years. I have yet to find a recent instance where a title or story arc that I expected to end in a "whimper" instead of a "bang" failed to do so. So no, sorry, DC doesn't get any slack from me. I'm assuming the worst and sticking to it until they prove otherwise, because the "worst" is all too often what we get out of situations like this.

How does it piss on the Batgirl series? Did you read and enjoy the stories? How does this change what happened in them? And now Cassandra has further developed into the head of a secret society where she kills again... she's still been developed even if you want to label it regressing.

[Sharpandpointies]

How does it piss on the series?

Cass stood for something. She stood for the fact that anyone can be what they want to be, despite their origins.

The way she is now not only scribbles over the character as she was, to an extent that only massive head injury could possibly create this personality, but also flat out states 'Yeah, that bit about transcending your origins? Don't bother - isn't going to happen. Once a killer, always a killer.'

And they've completely dropped the ball on who she WAS as well as who she is now.

Cassandra Cain stood for something important, and that was only one of the things that made the character great. But it was a big thing. And now DC has proven they just don't care about that.

As a friend of mine put it, it's like finding out that after year has passed Peter Parker has become a wife-beating alcoholic who takes money to be Spiderman. AND has felt that way all along, despite all of the years of struggling and 'great power/responsibility' that he's gone on about.

This is not character 'growth'. This is character alteration, from the ground up (backstory has been altered as well, and past personality).

[Nick Kal]

How does it piss on the series?

Cass stood for something. She stood for the fact that anyone can be what they want to be, despite their origins.

The way she is now not only scribbles over the character as she was, to an extent that only massive head injury could possibly create this personality, but also flat out states 'Yeah, that bit about transcending your origins? Don't bother - isn't going to happen. Once a killer, always a killer.'

And they've completely dropped the ball on who she WAS as well as who she is now.

Cassandra Cain stood for something important, and that was only one of the things that made the character great. But it was a big thing. And now DC has proven they just don't care about that.

As a friend of mine put it, it's like finding out that after year has passed Peter Parker has become a wife-beating alcoholic who takes money to be Spiderman. AND has felt that way all along, despite all of the years of struggling and 'great power/responsibility' that he's gone on about.

This is not character 'growth'. This is character alteration, from the ground up (backstory has been altered as well, and past personality).

This Batgirl was never Spider-Man... don't kid yourself. Secondly, have you looked at a Spider-Man comic recently? Blegh!

[Damo]

How does it piss on the Batgirl series?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but did you read my last reply to your post in the "now we know what happens" thread? I know it was long, but I did touch on "how it pissed on the Batgirl series". In a nutshell:


What we're seeing here isn't built on the base of what came before.


I'm stopping my quote for just a minute to point out that this is what people mean when they say this isn't development. Development implies that you take what came before and use it as backstory and motivations for what comes next. I wouldn't call what's happened here regression either... I'm not sure what you call it when a writer starts telling a new story with a character while contradicting what we've seen before in terms of history, personality, motivations, and even speech patterns. About the only facts Beechen seems to know are that she was Batgirl, she knows martial arts, has a link to the League of Assassins, and David Cain trained her as a child to be an assassin. This isn't fannish exagerration, I've looked and looked at the stories, and those are the only things from her history I've seen any indication that he knows. The things that he's gotten wrong on the other hand...

And this isn't fannish "Oh, Batman would never do what Winnick is saying he did" wrong. This is a character so dyslexic you could pick it up on a brain scan, who only learned a language because a telepath put that knowledge in her brain, and was never very good at speaking it, suddenly knows how to speak 2 languages, including a dead and almost useless one, read and write them, and give long speaches. Oh, and by the way, she was able to do all that during the same time period that her book was set in. The book that made a major point of saying how dyslexic she was.

I haven't seen this brazen a contradiction since Mike Grell explained that yes, Green Arrow and Black Canary had been in the JLA, and yes, Green Arrow lived in that one post crisis world that existed after the multiverse was destroyed, but no, Black Canary didn't lose her powers, because she never had them, because she lived in a world where nobody has superpowers.

Back to what I said elsewhere.

The motivation we're seeing for the change is an entirely new invention. Moreover:
1.) It's a new invention that contradicts the most recent storyline (which saw a slight sales increase), by making the basis for her turning evil be that Cain trained another child. The fact that Cain had trained other children was central to the entire last arc.

2.) It's a new invention that ignores most of the major themes the book featured from day one, including
A. Cass may have some love by Cain, but it is outweighed by her disgust for him.
B. Cass idolizes Batman to the point that she's the only one of his students to flat out want to be just like him one day
C. Cass can't stand to see people die and actually had a death wish because she had unknowingly killed someone once
D. Cass' whole life is built around redeeming herself for one crime she didn't even know she was committing at the time.
E. Cass has severe difficulty with language, can speak English only falteringly, and is profoundly dyslexic (to the point Oracle picks up abnormalities on a brain scan) wearing herself out in attempts to learn to read and write.

and 3.) It's a new invention that completely changes the character's personality and motivations in order to make the plot work.


If it was just one or two things on that list being contradicted, that would be one thing. But I honestly think if you'd asked me before this issue to make up a list of the main themes in Batgirl, the list would be pretty much what you see there. And the vast majority of those things are now "Wrong" for no logical reason. Cassandra has gone from being the biggest Batman fangirl in the whole wide world, the only one of his proteges to say she wants to be just like him one day, to thinking he's a jerk that just uses the people around him... because she found out Cain trained another girl? HUH?!?!?!

Corrina also helpfully made a list of all the things that this latest tale contradicts in Batgirl. It's a long list.

Again, it's not that the character changed. I'd already gotten over that months ago, when it became painfully obvious that "Head of the League of Assassins" was to be her new fate. It's that this character change was done in a way which not only shows a painful lack of research into her past stories and depictions, but which actually seems to go out of its was to contradict those stories and depictions. How could that not be pissing on the book?

This Batgirl was never Spider-Man... don't kid yourself. Secondly, have you looked at a Spider-Man comic recently? Blegh!

The analogy is based on the characters' personalities and commitment to a belief. The differences in their popularities or histories don't enter into it. Nor does the current state of Spiderman books.

[Forsaken_One]

I'm not sure what you call it when a writer starts telling a new story with a character while contradicting what we've seen before in terms of history, personality, motivations, and even speech patterns.
"Bad editing" I'd say.

[dupersuper]

I've only read a couple issues of Batgirl, and none was from her final arc. I've also read her (off the top of my head) in a Joe Kelly Superboy, Kellys' Justice League Extreme, Batgirl Firsts telling Cassandras' and Barbaras' first respective encounters with the Joker, her Planet DC annual, a few Batbooks, and the WW story where Circe transforms all the male super heros into animals and pits Supes and WW against each other. Though I wasn't a big Batgirl2 fan, and haven't read the Robin books in question or, to my knowledge, anything by that writer, I did glean enough of a knowledge of (and fondness for) the charactor to not like what I've read here (admitidly second hand). It does sound like they've pissed on the previous stories of Cassandra.

[Texas Twister]

I don't know if anyone else remebers this but in one issue of Batgirl she ran around all night making sure NO ONE died. From anything. I think it was the anniversary of her killing someone. But that's how seriously she took not killing people and life in general. I think it a bad thing when something like this is forgotten by a writer.

[Sharpandpointies]

This Batgirl was never Spider-Man... don't kid yourself. Secondly, have you looked at a Spider-Man comic recently? Blegh!

You seem to have missed my point.

The point is that it is an alteration to the character of the same magnitude, and is in no way 'character devlopment'. It's character swapping - Cassandra Cain with...someone else who isn't Cassandra Cain, and bears no resemblance to her.

And...what Damo said. :)

[Nick Kal]

I'm just saying Batgirl was already a killer... then she decided not to be one anymore... and now she's decided to be one again....

[Damo]

I'm just saying Batgirl was already a killer...

Well then you're saying a whole boatload of nonsense.

Batgirl wasn't a killer. ONCE, when she was a child, Cain made her kill someone. But she had no idea what she was doing, she thought she was just playing a game, and once she realized what had happened she was so overwhelmed by guilt that spent her entire life trying to make up for it. She developed a deathwish because she couldn't stand the thought that she could end someone's life (even though she had no idea what she was going at the time). She never meant to kill another living being in her entire life, and she was traumatized by her entirely innocent role in someone's murder.

[Babylon23]

I'm really enjoying this title at the moment. Both the stroytelling and the artwork appeal to me. I didn't see the Batgirl thing coming at all.

However, I can't really comment on the changes to Batgirl, since I've never read a single issue of her title. I don't really know much about the character, other than some history that I found on the net. If this is a major hange of character, then I feel for the Batgirl fans. I've had a lot of my favourites ruined in the last few years, although most of those have been over at Marvel.

Just a few quick questions so I can get a better bearing on this argument:

1) Do we know what happened to Batgirl during the OYL break, or is this the first we've seen of her since her title folded?

2) If some OYL info was revealed, what was it?

3) Is it possible that Cassandra has been brainwashed in some way? The League has a history of doing that to potential assassins (the Bronze TIger comes to mind). Maybe she went after the League during OYL, and was captured and brainwashed. Of course, this would suggest a master manipulator hiding behind the scenes.

[Damo]

Just a few quick questions so I can get a better bearing on this argument:

Good questions, hard to answer.

1) Do we know what happened to Batgirl during the OYL break, or is this the first we've seen of her since her title folded?

Confusing answer. "Batgirl" ended with the destruction of Bludhaven and Cassandra giving up one being Batgirl. This happened one year ago.

Batman goes training for a year with Dick and Tim. Did he try to contact Cass? Did he know she was missing? Dunno.

Batman puts Harvey Dent aka Two Face in charge of Gotham. Over in Batman OYL Harvey asks why he was put in charge instead of Batgirl. Batman says he doesn't want to talk about her. Does the Batman OYL take place before or after Robin OYL? And it doesn't really answer the question - why put a guy with a history of turning into a mass murdering psychopath in charge of your city instead of... well, heck, even the wonder twins?

The first issue of 52 has people mentioning that Batgirl had been seen in 2 different cities simultaneously (people are guessing one of these lady bats is the new Batwoman).

Robin OYL seems to suggest that Cassandra only just recently went missing. So has she been gone ever since the final issue of Batgirl, when she quit being Batgirl? Or has she been in contact? And if she's been in contact, why does Tim think she's still Batgirl?


3) Is it possible that Cassandra has been brainwashed in some way? The League has a history of doing that to potential assassins (the Bronze TIger comes to mind). Maybe she went after the League during OYL, and was captured and brainwashed. Of course, this would suggest a master manipulator hiding behind the scenes.

My personal suspicion is that Mr. Beechen won't be going down that route. It's an explanation as to why this extreme shift may have taken place that would be consistent with Cassandra's character. But he's shown in other ways that he doesn't know the character at all. Specifically, Cassandra has extreme difficulty with spoken languages and is also profoundly dyslexic, to the point Oracle was able to pick up abnormalities in Cassandra's brain on a brain scan. She had trouble speaking English, and had, I'm guessing from what I saw, maybe attained kindergarten level reading and writing skills after a whole year of trying to learn. It was a pretty big plot point in the book. In Robin 159 Beechen made a plot point of the fact that Cassandra had learned Navajo code from Batman a fair bit before her title's cancellation. Navajo code requires you to be able to write in Navajo, speak navajo, speak English, and write in English. :rolleyes: So I guess what I'm saying is, guessing from the level of knowledge he's showing about Cass, I doubt he thinks he needs more explanation than what he's given already.

But as I've pointed out a few times myself, that doesn't mean that some other writer down the road can't use that idea. It would certainly be consistent with both Cass' history and the League's history.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Specifically, Cassandra has extreme difficulty with spoken languages and is also profoundly dyslexic, to the point Oracle was able to pick up abnormalities in Cassandra's brain on a brain scan.

Actually, it's my understanding that dyslexia can always be determined by a brain scan, so being able to pick it up using one isn't anything special.

[Nate Grey]

Can the Lazarus Pits heal even old injuries? I wonder if that's what happened (or what Beechum will use to explain away) to her dyslexia. I want to say the answer is "no", though: didn't Nyssa remain infertile despite multiple dips in the pits?

[Damo]

Actually, it's my understanding that dyslexia can always be determined by a brain scan, so being able to pick it up using one isn't anything special.

That's not really the case. Researchers have found microscopic differences, on autopsy, between the brains of many dyslexic individuals and normal individuals. It's only in the most severe cases that you're able to pick up differences with a normal brain scan.

Even then you only pick up those differences when the subject has been reading for a good amount of time while you monitor them. I don't believe we see Cass reading at all while her brain is being scanned by Oracle. My interpretation was that her brain developed really obviously different, to the point where you can even pick up differences in how different parts of it "light up" while she's just having a conversation with you, never mind how it looks when she's reading. I'm probably sticking to the science a little too strictly for a comic though. Still, I think it's only fair to interpret what Oracle says about Cass as meaning that Cass is completely unique in how bad her problem with language is.

Can the Lazarus Pits heal even old injuries? I wonder if that's what happened (or what Beechum will use to explain away) to her dyslexia. I want to say the answer is "no", though: didn't Nyssa remain infertile despite multiple dips in the pits?

It apparently depends on the injuries. As you stated, Nyssa remained infertile. Black Canary, however, regained both her fertility (she hasn't realized it yet, but it's confirmed) and her canary cry - both lost to old injuries. If I had to guess, the difference in the two women is that Nyssa lost her ovaries (either due to the fact that she really is too old to still be having children, or else they were completely removed, and thus not something the pit could heal), wheras that was not the case with Black Canary's injuries.

However, in my personal opinion? Batgirl's dyslexia wouldn't count. It wasn't so much injury so much as atrophy - like someone who hasn't been allowed to use their legs once from infancy to adulthood. Thanks to Cain's demented training, her brain developed differently, learning body language instead of spoken or written language. So she originally had as much trouble learning spoken and written language as you and I have learning body language. She was able to learn some very basic things ("no" "yes" "me") the same way you or I have learned to recognize smiles and frowns. It took a telepath rewiring her brain to teach her to speak and understand English, and even then she only spoke with extreme difficulty (very falteringly, short sentences with long pauses, frequently using the wrong words, etc.)

Even if you decided her dyslexia could be cured though, it still doesn't work to explain things. Beechen reveals that Cassandra had learned Navajo Code from Batman. That would mean she learned it during her time as Batgirl, in between issues of her own book, before being put in the pit, and before the "one year". Learning Navajo code requires you 1. Speak Navajo, 2 Speak English pretty well, 3. can read and write Navajo, and 4. can read and write in English.

In effect that one throw away bit of info retconned away a heck of a lot of stuff from her title, and showed Beechen hadn't done his research. Or had done some research, and just chose to ignore things that didn't work for his story, blaming the differences on the "New Earth" shift.

[kane]

I like the issue but i would like to see more of Tims private life. Hopefully this will change.

I do not have any problems with Batgirl. She tried to be a good girl and she failed. And its one year later, so her change came not out of sudden. She had plenty time to change.

[Blight]

Didio brought up Batgirl during Newsarama's talk on Batwoman:




NRAMA: Wrapping up – Batwoman coming back…Batgirl…not around anymore?

DIDIO: …I didn’t say that, did I? [laughs]

Don't tell me a new Batgirl is on the horizon..

[Nate Grey]

Didio brought up Batgirl during Newsarama's talk on Batwoman:




NRAMA: Wrapping up – Batwoman coming back…Batgirl…not around anymore?

DIDIO: …I didn’t say that, did I? [laughs]

Don't tell me a new Batgirl is on the horizon..

Well, not sure if spoilers are needed for speculation, but just in case...

If Kathy Kane is indeed Batwoman, stands to reason that Bette Kane will show up as Batgirl at some point. Perhaps that's why Didio wanted the role of Batgirl vacant?

[Babylon23]

Good questions, hard to answer.


Confusing answer. "Batgirl" ended with the destruction of Bludhaven and Cassandra giving up one being Batgirl. This happened one year ago.

Batman goes training for a year with Dick and Tim. Did he try to contact Cass? Did he know she was missing? Dunno.

Batman puts Harvey Dent aka Two Face in charge of Gotham. Over in Batman OYL Harvey asks why he was put in charge instead of Batgirl. Batman says he doesn't want to talk about her. Does the Batman OYL take place before or after Robin OYL? And it doesn't really answer the question - why put a guy with a history of turning into a mass murdering psychopath in charge of your city instead of... well, heck, even the wonder twins?

The first issue of 52 has people mentioning that Batgirl had been seen in 2 different cities simultaneously (people are guessing one of these lady bats is the new Batwoman).

Robin OYL seems to suggest that Cassandra only just recently went missing. So has she been gone ever since the final issue of Batgirl, when she quit being Batgirl? Or has she been in contact? And if she's been in contact, why does Tim think she's still Batgirl?



My personal suspicion is that Mr. Beechen won't be going down that route. It's an explanation as to why this extreme shift may have taken place that would be consistent with Cassandra's character. But he's shown in other ways that he doesn't know the character at all. Specifically, Cassandra has extreme difficulty with spoken languages and is also profoundly dyslexic, to the point Oracle was able to pick up abnormalities in Cassandra's brain on a brain scan. She had trouble speaking English, and had, I'm guessing from what I saw, maybe attained kindergarten level reading and writing skills after a whole year of trying to learn. It was a pretty big plot point in the book. In Robin 159 Beechen made a plot point of the fact that Cassandra had learned Navajo code from Batman a fair bit before her title's cancellation. Navajo code requires you to be able to write in Navajo, speak navajo, speak English, and write in English. :rolleyes: So I guess what I'm saying is, guessing from the level of knowledge he's showing about Cass, I doubt he thinks he needs more explanation than what he's given already.

But as I've pointed out a few times myself, that doesn't mean that some other writer down the road can't use that idea. It would certainly be consistent with both Cass' history and the League's history.

Thanks for the answers Damo. I can begin to see your problems with the storyline.

I didn't realise Cassandra was dyxlexic. It does cast doubt on the Navajo Code. However, there are levels of dyslexia. Has it been stated just how extreme Cassandra's case was?

[Damo]

Thanks for the answers Damo. I can begin to see your problems with the storyline.

I didn't realise Cassandra was dyxlexic. It does cast doubt on the Navajo Code. However, there are levels of dyslexia. Has it been stated just how extreme Cassandra's case was?

I pulled out issue 67 (pretty much the start of her last arc, so you'd think a new writer might pick it up...).

Cass is seated. There's a book open in front of her and she's trying to read it aloud and copy it down. There's sensors all over her head.

Cass: "T-TO-M. TOM... SEE--

Oracle is looking at her screen which has an image of a human brain on it. Different parts of it are lighting up.

Cass: --SEES SU-SUEY... SUE...

Meanwhile what she's writing isn't remotely right. I can't type it, because what she's putting on paper aren't correctly drawn letters. Close enough that you can tell what she's trying to do, but about the only thing that's definitely a letter is an "X" which shouldn't be there at all.

Oracle: The language centers of your brain are all over both hemispheres. Not centralized like with most people. When you try to read or write, your brain doesn't know how to keep it cohesive. But the good news is -- you can learn. It's just a matter of figuring out how. The traditional methods don't work, so--

End scene. This takes place in the plane flying her to her final mission. That mission ends with her deciding not to be Batgirl any more, and she goes off wandering.

Additionally, Cass was raised without ever hearing another human being speak, and she ended up learning body language as her lingua franca. Originally it was as hard for her to learn English as it would be for you or me to learn body language to the point you can look at someone and know everything that person is thinking and planning to do. It took a telepath reqiring her brain to teach her one language. So having her be able to speak navajo shows just as little concern for the character's history as sayins she was able to read and write in two languages while with Batman.

Essentially what I'm seeing is that Adam Beechen really thought it would be cool to have "young master detective Tim Drake" translate something in navajo code, and he either didn't know or didn't care what it would mean for Cassandra's continuity. This leaves me with no confidence concerning his treatment of Cass.

[Nick Kal]

Well then you're saying a whole boatload of nonsense.

Batgirl wasn't a killer. ONCE, when she was a child, Cain made her kill someone. But she had no idea what she was doing, she thought she was just playing a game, and once she realized what had happened she was so overwhelmed by guilt that spent her entire life trying to make up for it. She developed a deathwish because she couldn't stand the thought that she could end someone's life (even though she had no idea what she was going at the time). She never meant to kill another living being in her entire life, and she was traumatized by her entirely innocent role in someone's murder.

Innocent role?!? She didn't kill him... well she did, but someone else tricked her into it... so the guy who's dead should not be mad at her.

[Damo]

Innocent role?!? She didn't kill him... well she did, but someone else tricked her into it... so the guy who's dead should not be mad at her.

Yeah... she was the one who ripped the man's throat out, but her entire life up to that point had been making a game out of things like that. "Rip out the dummy's throat for Daddy! Good girl! Okay, today we're going to play a new game! It's called a hit." She had no idea what she was doing. Kinda like that old Adam West Batman episode where the commissioner is tricked into shooting at targets, not knowing Batman's tied up on the other side. Being the one that deals the death blow doesn't always make you a killer.

So, like I was saying, it's not that she was a killer, then decided not to be one, then decided to be one again. It's that she was abused as a child, spent most of her life traumatized by a horrible thing she was made to do, and is now being written as someone that suddenly enjoys the thing that had traumatized her for so long. That's... well I think that's pretty crummy.

[Nick Kal]

Yeah... she was the one who ripped the man's throat out, but her entire life up to that point had been making a game out of things like that. "Rip out the dummy's throat for Daddy! Good girl! Okay, today we're going to play a new game! It's called a hit." She had no idea what she was doing. Kinda like that old Adam West Batman episode where the commissioner is tricked into shooting at targets, not knowing Batman's tied up on the other side. Being the one that deals the death blow doesn't always make you a killer.

So, like I was saying, it's not that she was a killer, then decided not to be one, then decided to be one again. It's that she was abused as a child, spent most of her life traumatized by a horrible thing she was made to do, and is now being written as someone that suddenly enjoys the thing that had traumatized her for so long. That's... well I think that's pretty crummy.

Hey, it's understandable.. but like, is Harvey Dent innocent if Two-Face kills? I mean Two-Face is like anotehr person guiding Harvey...

And you know, the story is still not done... Cassandra could be undercover or something...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hey, it's understandable.. but like, is Harvey Dent innocent if Two-Face kills? I mean Two-Face is like anotehr person guiding Harvey...

And you know, the story is still not done... Cassandra could be undercover or something...

Murder requires intent. And yes, Harvey isn't considered, legally, guilty of a crime Two-Face commits because Harvey's insane and therefor, by defination cannot recognize the full implications of his crime.

And the story may not be done, but the issue blurb was advertised as 'The Final Fate of Batgirl!' We're hardly jumping to conclusions.

[Nick Kal]

Murder requires intent. And yes, Harvey isn't considered, legally, guilty of a crime Two-Face commits because Harvey's insane and therefor, by defination cannot recognize the full implications of his crime.

And the story may not be done, but the issue blurb was advertised as 'The Final Fate of Batgirl!' We're hardly jumping to conclusions.

What's legality got to do with anything, though? Just cause some murder is assigned as legal, should that justify that a person's life is gone? Cassandra Cain killed in the past... she regretted it and has spent most of her life trying to make up for it... but she still had it in her and she decided to do what she does best and has done before... kill.

[Damo]

What's legality got to do with anything, though? Just cause some murder is assigned as legal, should that justify that a person's life is gone? Cassandra Cain killed in the past... she regretted it and has spent most of her life trying to make up for it... but she still had it in her and she decided to do what she does best and has done before... kill.

But that's the crux of it. She didn't have it in her. With Dent you have an alternate personality that not only kills but enjoys killing. Cass was no more responsible than the Commissioner would have been, in that example I gave - the old story where he was asked to shoot at some targets, not knowing Batman was tied up behind one. Cass didn't know that this time she was being told to "do the throat thing" it would be so different from all the times she did it on manniquins. There was some part of Dent's mind that intended to kill. No part of Cass' mind had a clue what was going on.

Moreover, "what she does best"? What she's doing now is something she's never done before: act with intent to kill.

And you could be right, maybe it's a red herring and the 75% or so of us not liking this twist will all be eating crow. But my gut instinct says the guy that couldn't be bothered to pick up the last 5 issues of Batgirl (which covered the fact that, no, seriously, she can't read, and yes, she knows Cain trained other kids, and she was fine with it) isn't going to be doing Cass any favors.

[Jaye]

Please continue this thread without the personal insults.

The conversation is going along just fine as the main people are sticking to the subject.

And adding a smiley face, rolleyes face, or some other emotive non-sense does not negate the insult.
Anyone who can't talk about Batgirl or Robin, just don't post.

[Babylon23]

I pulled out issue 67 (pretty much the start of her last arc, so you'd think a new writer might pick it up...).

Cass is seated. There's a book open in front of her and she's trying to read it aloud and copy it down. There's sensors all over her head.

Cass: "T-TO-M. TOM... SEE--

Oracle is looking at her screen which has an image of a human brain on it. Different parts of it are lighting up.

Cass: --SEES SU-SUEY... SUE...

Meanwhile what she's writing isn't remotely right. I can't type it, because what she's putting on paper aren't correctly drawn letters. Close enough that you can tell what she's trying to do, but about the only thing that's definitely a letter is an "X" which shouldn't be there at all.

Oracle: The language centers of your brain are all over both hemispheres. Not centralized like with most people. When you try to read or write, your brain doesn't know how to keep it cohesive. But the good news is -- you can learn. It's just a matter of figuring out how. The traditional methods don't work, so--

End scene. This takes place in the plane flying her to her final mission. That mission ends with her deciding not to be Batgirl any more, and she goes off wandering.

Additionally, Cass was raised without ever hearing another human being speak, and she ended up learning body language as her lingua franca. Originally it was as hard for her to learn English as it would be for you or me to learn body language to the point you can look at someone and know everything that person is thinking and planning to do. It took a telepath reqiring her brain to teach her one language. So having her be able to speak navajo shows just as little concern for the character's history as sayins she was able to read and write in two languages while with Batman.

Essentially what I'm seeing is that Adam Beechen really thought it would be cool to have "young master detective Tim Drake" translate something in navajo code, and he either didn't know or didn't care what it would mean for Cassandra's continuity. This leaves me with no confidence concerning his treatment of Cass.

Once again, thanks for the info. It seems that Cassanadra has an extreme case of Dyslexia, which would completely negate the navajo code, unless the League has telepaths that could train her.

I think the best bet would be to wait for the next issue. Hopefully, there will be some explanation offered for all of this. If not, then your distain for this idea would be completely justified.

[Zip]

Was out of town on vacay and just picked this up. Fairly predictable, a definite departure from Cass's old character, but I didn't mind it so much. I've been looking forward to a possible link/romance between the two, so I'll take what I can get.

[Captain Jim]

I just got around to reading Robin 148-150 last night and I'm not a happy camper, on at least two grounds:

1) This seems an odd choice for a Robin OYL storyline. The emphasis is more on the Batgirl mystery than the character of Tim Drake.

2) I never was a big Cassie fan, but she had certainly earned a place in the bat-universe. That doesn't mean you can't do away with her, or kill her off, or begin making changes in her character...but I am getting so freaking tired of seeing DC characters (especially bat-characters) acting completely out of character overnight ...essentially like an entirely different person. Leslie, Nightwing, and now Batgirl. This is not Cassandra Cain... she has evidently been possessed by an evil spirit. :mad:

[Captain Jim]

I can't help but wonder something about Nick Kal...

a) he lives in New York
b) he claims insider knowledge about upcoming DC comics
c) he invaribly defends everything DC does

Hey Nick, any chance that your secret identity is Dan Didio? ;)

[Nick Kal]

I can't help but wonder something about Nick Kal...

a) he lives in New York
b) he claims insider knowledge about upcoming DC comics
c) he invaribly defends everything DC does

Hey Nick, any chance that your secret identity is Dan Didio? ;)


Haha. No. :D That Leslie Thompkins thing sucked ass.;)

[90'sCartoonMan]

I'm still digging the character of Robin and the use of his various skills throughout the series. Plus it looks like Tim's got a new supporting character with this girl who's going to be tutoring him (just how often has Tim switched schools, anyway?!)

Sadly, I hate what they're putting Cassie through. She didn't sound remotely like she did during the Batgirl series. I hope this isn't really her and that there's some logical explanation for what's going on. I didn't expect her to come back and be Batgirl again, but I was hoping she wouldn't be all evil.