Ultimate X-men #70 - Review, Discussion & Spoilers [Archive]

Jack Flash

05-17-2006, 04:40 PM

The book starts off with Nightcrawler talking to comatose Ali. He's really being mopey about feeling alone, but then proceeds to say that peter is dead to him, and basically expose why he's so alone, he's a bigot.

This issue is split from there into two stories.

1st is Scott, the new guy (Codename Dockers?) Rogue, Storm, and Iceman

They jet off to help out Peter against the brotherhood. They arrive and Peter's getting his head handed to him by the Frost institutes team. The immediately think that the X-team are the brotherhood due to Mastermind. The X-men take down Emma's team with relative ease. Sunspot versus Iceman was cool to see. Havok thinking Icey was Toad was also funny.

The X-folk then tangle with the brotherhood. Madrox piles on Colossus. Cyke takes down toad (although there is a hint that he thinks Toad is a good guy deep inside.) Mastermind comments on how Storms greatest fear is so "odd". Codename Dockers actually manages to move Blob. and that's where this story leaves us with a cliff hanger.

The other story line in this issue is Nerami's and Jean's interaction. They take blood from her and ask her questions for testing on whether or not she's really Phoenix. Jean says if they determine that she is, then she'll "jump off a bridge". Nerami keeps pushing and states that Jean's visions of death and destruction aren't interpreted correctly, but it ends with Phoenix waking up inside Jean and stating she'll "Unmake this world, starting with YOU!" as she points at presumably Lillandra.

This ish was ok. I really have trouble with the Nightcrawler as a unapologetic bigot thing. I wish it wasn't one of my fave characters, but I think the storyline is really great. It's nice to see this issue in print. I like alot of the little touches in this book. The relationship that Cyke has with Toad for instance. But I am not really loving it as much as I did with Vaughn. overall I give this ish a 7.

Hi-Fi

05-17-2006, 04:42 PM

Sounds good.

Thanks for the summary, Jack!!

Does Rogue do anything at all in this??

Jack Flash

05-17-2006, 05:09 PM

she saves Colossus from Multiple Man and then takes down two Madrox dupes.

Beast

05-17-2006, 05:15 PM

The Lucky One

05-17-2006, 05:32 PM

she saves Colossus from Multiple Man and then takes down two Madrox dupes.

Although if Ultimate Madrox has the same powers as 616 Madrox, all Gambit's cards do is make him multiply... unfortunately the art doesn't really make it clear whether Rogue's actually hurting the dupes or just stalling them briefly.

-D

FieryBalrog

05-17-2006, 06:16 PM

Is the art any better?

Volk1

05-17-2006, 06:58 PM

I wish we would have seen what Mastermind was torturning Storm with. We see her looking shocked and horrified, and Mastermind comments that it was odd. I hope we get to see at some point. Hopefully it's a Zombie Beast blaming her for his death. That would be great. :D

I thought that was weird too. I was througholy looking at that panel to see what she was so scared about but there's nothing shown. It doesn't look like anything that has to do with claustrophobia.....

Is the art any better? I liked this art better than Raney's. I don't want Raney to come back!

Oliver's art is simple, clean. It works for me as their wasn't too much destruction or complicated sequences.

Beast

05-17-2006, 07:28 PM

I thought that was weird too. I was througholy looking at that panel to see what she was so scared about but there's nothing shown. It doesn't look like anything that has to do with claustrophobia.....
If it has to do with Beast, they could bring in the claustrophobia with it. After all, Mastermind said it was odd. Maybe Ororo's fear was her in Hank's coffin with him. Kinda morbid, but it would be a nice development for Ororo.

jeangreydp

05-18-2006, 07:58 AM

I know this is a surprise, but I really liked Jean in this issue. :)

Her reactions to Lilandra I thought were fitting. Also, the part where Elliot split the atom. Holy Moly. He's dangerous. Nothing moves the Blob! :eek:

And the end, well that was hot.

Oh and did anyone catch the part about St. Louis?? :cool:

WolverinesSon

05-18-2006, 08:02 AM

I really have trouble with the Nightcrawler as a unapologetic bigot thing. I wish it wasn't one of my fave characters, but I think the storyline is really great.

I think him saying that Peter is dead to him is a little harsh. However, if your best friend that you've known for a long time comes out the closet, how would you take it? I might not have been paying attention but, is Ultimate NightCrawler highly religious like his 616 counterpart? If so, then this might be his Ultimization making him extremely religious to the point where he believes all homosexuals should burn in hell. We'll see in the issues to come because these guys live together so eventually those two are gonna get into it.

Hi-Fi

05-18-2006, 08:06 AM

Oh and did anyone catch the part about St. Louis?? :cool:

I'm happy for you, Liz.;)

Beast

05-18-2006, 08:34 AM

I think him saying that Peter is dead to him is a little harsh. However, if your best friend that you've known for a long time comes out the closet, how would you take it? I might not have been paying attention but, is Ultimate NightCrawler highly religious like his 616 counterpart? If so, then this might be his Ultimization making him extremely religious to the point where he believes all homosexuals should burn in hell. We'll see in the issues to come because these guys live together so eventually those two are gonna get into it.
Considering he's a mutant, and was a trained killer, he should be more accepting of other people and things they can't change. Kurt needs a good knock upside the head with Ultimate Tire Iron, and get it thru his thick head that Colossus is the same person that he's been since he first knew him. Just that he loves guys, instead of girls. It doesn't change who he is, just who he likes to be with. Which is frankly none of Kurt's business either. What's Piotr supposed to do, flaunt his sexuality just to make Kurt happy. Kurt's really coming off as an asshole, and I hope that this doesn't last long. Because I'm beginning to seriously dislike his character.

Beast

05-18-2006, 08:36 AM

Also not too happy that Kirkman seems to have forgotten that Jean was fairly close to her parents even after the institution. Wasp even went to see her father in Ultimate War, trying to track down Jean. They even were at Parent's Day just after 'Return of the King'. So that's just a huge blunder.

Brian M.

05-18-2006, 09:12 AM

I would think if Nightcrawler is as asshole Colossus would like him?

Sorry, I had to.

Beast

05-18-2006, 09:27 AM

I would think if Nightcrawler is as asshole Colossus would like him?

Sorry, I had to.
Bad UTV, no biscuit!

Brian M.

05-18-2006, 09:49 AM

Bad UTV, no biscuit!

If you had told me Nightcrawler was a pussy I would have said Wolverine would probably be all over him...chasing tail...oooh the puns.

Red Lotus

05-18-2006, 05:03 PM

Doom Hammer

05-18-2006, 06:22 PM

This issue is meh, pure and simple. Kirkman's first blunder at Marvel Comics, in my eyes.

Vaughn's arc promised new and innovative developments at the end, and that's something we've yet to see. Magneto's followers are still being lameasses, attacking the Massachusetts Institute for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Seriously, what was the point of that? At least under Millar they were vaguely threatening in terrorist-y way, now they're jus bumbling super-villains with no purpose. Weaaak.

I figured it was the Magician's conjuring, in order to create a conflict he could be involved in, but that wasn't even implied in this issue.

Kurt's homophobia, though an interesting plot wrinkle, is getting a little bit ridiculous. I can see why he might be shocked and hurt because the secret was kept from him, but hateful? What?

The Rogue/Bobby thing still has me a bit disappointed, because I don't see this ending well for either of them.

Oh, and Phoenix again.

Having said that, I really do like The Magician, I like the story that's being built, and he is the saving grace of Kirkman's thus-far forgettable Ultimate X-Men run.

Sean Whitmore

05-18-2006, 07:19 PM

This issue is meh, pure and simple. Kirkman's first blunder at Marvel Comics, in my eyes.

First? You're far too forgiving, Doom. :)

I'm not thrilled with Kirkman's current Mary Sue character. So far all the girls think he's hot and he moved the Blob. Does he become a millionaire astronaut and win the Super Bowl next issue?

SEAN

malephoenix

05-18-2006, 10:20 PM

....but is, in this instance, being written by Robert K, I think the way Kirkman's handling this is going to be different from what we're expecting. (This is the same guy who introduced Freedom Ring as literally carrying a purse.) Before I touch on that, though, there's something else I noticed:

I think him saying that Peter is dead to him is a little harsh. However, if your best friend that you've known for a long time comes out the closet, how would you take it? I might not have been paying attention but, is Ultimate NightCrawler highly religious like his 616 counterpart? If so, then this might be his Ultimization making him extremely religious to the point where he believes all homosexuals should burn in hell. We'll see in the issues to come because these guys live together so eventually those two are gonna get into it.

"Extremely religious" =/= thinking that homosexuals "should burn in hell." (Wow. It's like open game on Christians all over this site. No offense to you, WolverinesSon, if you didn't mean it that harsh. [As always, I'm sorry for those of you who have clearly had bad experiences with Christians. Yes, a lot of us are hypocrites and yes, we're all sinners. But some of us actually Love Selflessly like our namesake.])

It makes no sense why people want comics to be "more realistic" and include homosexual characters, but not realistic to the point where a positive character doesn't like homosexuality. Pretty much in comics, if you're portrayed as not liking or having trouble with the concept of homosexuality, then you are a villain. Or a good guy who will "see the light." I haven't seen one "good guy" character in mainstream comics who is anti-homosexuality (whether or not anti-homosexuals) and stays that way. I personally happen to know several homosexuals who are pretty good people. But I know several people who aren't comofortable with homosexuality who are pretty good people, too. (I know that's not going to change in mainstream comics, but it's just frustrating.)

All that said, I'm pretty sure given Kirkman's other works that he isn't going to write this off as Kurt having issues with the homosexuality, per se. I think he's going to write it as, while Peter being gay does make Kurt uncomfortable, Nightcrawler's more hurt and upset because his friend kept something from him. Something big and important. To make a couple of quick analogies, it's like if your best friend all of the sudden reveals that they're a millionaire or that their a Klansmen or something big. Because either one of those things, people argue "it doesn't change who they are - they're still the same person." But it can really leave a hole inside you if your best bud hides something so basic from you, whether it be sexuality, wealth, or racism. Or any inversion of those or anything else.

kudlaty_true

05-19-2006, 04:24 AM

Nah, for me this arc still doesn't do a thing. It repells me. The faces, which are not in center of attention, gets drawn like schematics for a learning child.
1 Draw a circle - head
2 Draw two horizontal lines - eyes
3 And a verticall one - you got a nose.
4 colour his/her hair - You got every character except colossus. lol.
I don't know why it bugs me so much. I'm wierd... The colouring was also, like, crap. Sometimes out of lines, Geez... These drawings are made by guy, who gets paid to do it? I have a few friends which draw waaay better.
Uhm.. I'm sorry for the critics, but that's the way I am. Of course I don't drop the comic, but... well, I'm dissapointed in this.
The story was interesting on two last pages...

FieryBalrog

05-19-2006, 09:19 AM

....but is, in this instance, being written by Robert K, I think the way Kirkman's handling this is going to be different from what we're expecting. (This is the same guy who introduced Freedom Ring as literally carrying a purse.) Before I touch on that, though, there's something else I noticed:

"Extremely religious" =/= thinking that homosexuals "should burn in hell." (Wow. It's like open game on Christians all over this site. No offense to you, WolverinesSon, if you didn't mean it that harsh. [As always, I'm sorry for those of you who have clearly had bad experiences with Christians. Yes, a lot of us are hypocrites and yes, we're all sinners. But some of us actually Love Selflessly like our namesake.])

It makes no sense why people want comics to be "more realistic" and include homosexual characters, but not realistic to the point where a positive character doesn't like homosexuality. Pretty much in comics, if you're portrayed as not liking or having trouble with the concept of homosexuality, then you are a villain. Or a good guy who will "see the light." I haven't seen one "good guy" character in mainstream comics who is anti-homosexuality (whether or not anti-homosexuals) and stays that way. I personally happen to know several homosexuals who are pretty good people. But I know several people who aren't comofortable with homosexuality who are pretty good people, too. (I know that's not going to change in mainstream comics, but it's just frustrating.)

All that said, I'm pretty sure given Kirkman's other works that he isn't going to write this off as Kurt having issues with the homosexuality, per se. I think he's going to write it as, while Peter being gay does make Kurt uncomfortable, Nightcrawler's more hurt and upset because his friend kept something from him. Something big and important. To make a couple of quick analogies, it's like if your best friend all of the sudden reveals that they're a millionaire or that their a Klansmen or something big. Because either one of those things, people argue "it doesn't change who they are - they're still the same person." But it can really leave a hole inside you if your best bud hides something so basic from you, whether it be sexuality, wealth, or racism. Or any inversion of those or anything else.

Good post. One would think tolerance means exactly that... tolerating different viewpoints.

I liked this issue a lot better.

Hawk

05-19-2006, 02:32 PM

I'm not enjoying Kirkman's run at all. It's too...bland. I'm not liking the direction Rogue is going, or Jean, or Iceman, or Nightcrawler. It's like he took what Vaughn left off on and found the most boring way to "build" on it.

And this Magician character? LAME!!!

There's nothing to him. He looks like an Abercrombie tool, and he's ultra-powerful. But that's not what gets me. What gets me is that he just killed his parents, yet all he can talk about is how much he wants to be an X-Man.
It blows my mind. Is this character supposed to be that uncaring? I haven't read any of Kirkman's stuff up until this, but that's a serious flaw. Unless it's intentional. But then his inevitable betrayal won't be much of a shock. You know that if he feels nothing...NOTHING...over his parents death, he's a bad person, and thus will betray the X-Men.

And the last page "...STARTING WITH YOU." Also lame. It was like a bad movie. It just seemed so cliche.

At least the art is better. I couldn't stand Raney at all.
But I really really miss Vaughn. There's a guy who can write.

Xany Kaos

05-19-2006, 04:08 PM

Um... huh.

Well, first of all, Nightcrawler freaked me out. At first, I thought he was gonna say how he was really hurt that Pete kept the secret from him, but "He is dead to me"...? Yeah. And then he goes and complains that he's alone. I'm fairly sure Kurt's gonna get a kick in the tail, realize that he's got no right to complain about being alone if he isolates himself, that he's being waaay to harsh, etc.
Kurt, in Ultimate, hasn't exactly been established as religious. I think there was hinting at it, but never to a large extent.

This just occured to me, but...Kurt's been through the ringer. Is it possibly he was sexually abused by a man, either before or during his time with Weapon X, and that left him with this extreme viewpoint or something?

Oh, yeah, and seconding the thing that Christian =/= Homophobe. It really just doesn't.

That said, I think it's intresting at least, if a little unsettling, that a "good" character is so intolerant about this. When/if it clears up, I'd like to see him still friends with Peter, and finally accepting it and all, but still clearly uncomfortable with it--just not to the point where he makes an issue about it. Just because it would be different.

The Magician...needs to die. No, seriously. He had better be well disposed of by the end of this story arc. He's absolutely sickening. "I have a tragic past, Nick Fury himself came to pick me up and brought me personally to the X-mansion, despite being on bad terms with them, I totally knew about X-men before hand and think they're so cool. Cyclops personally showed me around, and I got to join the gang on a mission immediantly. I didn't have time to get a costume, so I magically made one, and all the girls think I'm hot (because obviously all women are attracted to the same kind of men...). Oh, and I moved the Blob, even though the rule about Nothing Moves the Blob is one of the more concrete rules of the Marvel universe. Yeah. I'm cool."

Seriously. This had all better be leading to him being evil and making him dead. And buried, and burned, and then dancing a jig on his grave. Gross.

And a word to the writers...if we're gonna have a hot redhead character...at least make him look like a red-head. There's more to it than hair (says a connoiseur).

Storm...definately want to know what was up with her vision.

Cyke takes down toad (although there is a hint that he thinks Toad is a good guy deep inside.)

That was so my favorite part of the issue. After this all settles, I'd like to see some Scott/Toad interaction. I mean on a friend level! Just...we were told they were friends, but never got to see much of that. And it would be cool if Toad, such a basic baddie, got kinda humanized a bit in the Ultiverse.

Elegance Liberty

05-19-2006, 04:25 PM

Malephoenix: Simply put it... THANK YOU.

I'd like to see him still friends with Peter, and finally accepting it and all, but still clearly uncomfortable with it--just not to the point where he makes an issue about it. Just because it would be different.

IMO, that's the way it should go. Besides, Kurt in ANY canon never struck me as a harsh, judgemental person. (Then again, I've only recently got 'deeper' into X-Men, so maybe I missed something)

malephoenix

05-19-2006, 05:32 PM

*wipes away a tear*

Thanks guys. *sniff* :o I promised myself I wasn't going to do this...

Xany Kaos

05-19-2006, 07:09 PM

what, drop your drawers an dance around?

Rokk

05-20-2006, 08:32 AM

You can check out my review here (http://comicbookrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/05/comic-book-review-ultimate-x-men-70.html).

I have been less than impressed with Kirkman's run on this title. I think the overall storyline has been generic and his dialogue boring. I don' think he has a good grasp of the characters nor have their personalities been well developed.

I also am not a big fan of the art. It doesn't make the comic book enjoyable to read.

This title needs an overhaul. It is definately the weakest comic out of the Ultimate Universe titles.

Xany Kaos

05-20-2006, 10:21 AM

The art was...eh... Isn't this a relatively new artist to superhero titles? Because I got the feeling of someone cutting their milkteeth on this. The faces and guestures were okay. The dramatic fight scenes less so. The weakest panel had to be the one where the brotherhood comes storming through. That should've been the second strongest, but... Same goes for the final splash page

But at the same time, he did well with the Jean/Lil conversation scene. That could've easily been incredibly redundant, but it went over fairly decently.

Did anyone else notice that even the Blob acknowledges how hot the Magician is?
What gets me is that he just killed his parents, yet all he can talk about is how much he wants to be an X-Man.
Yeah, a day ago or two ago, his powers were bran-freaking-new, and he killed his folks with lack of control. Now he can make a new uniform, split atoms, and save all the X-men while he's at it.
... they're setting something up with all this, right?

Maybe he's got something to do with the Phoenix. I mean, they're both red-heads, and both rather omnipotent. I say there as two scenarios. 1) He goes up against the Phoenix, all cock and swagger...and is killed in an eyeblink; just brushed aside. 2) He manages to magically subdue the Phoenix, and saves the Entire World, also ending the prejudice against mutants and feeding the starving folk in Indoneasia. At which point we march on Marvel with pitchforks held high...

Doom Hammer

05-20-2006, 11:23 AM

First? You're far too forgiving, Doom. :)

I'm not thrilled with Kirkman's current Mary Sue character. So far all the girls think he's hot and he moved the Blob. Does he become a millionaire astronaut and win the Super Bowl next issue?

SEAN

Well, when I say "first blunder", I'm referring to his Ultimate X-Men run in its entirety. It's been bad.

And I like the Magician because he's so obviously messed up. I mean, as another poster pointed out, he just killed his parents and now he's completely forgotten about it. He's just the type of lovable, swashbuckling hero that Kirkman loves to write, except that he's completely screwed up and probably evil.

Romus

05-20-2006, 05:39 PM

Does ultimate XM still sell as well as it used to?

Toboe

05-20-2006, 06:45 PM

Well, this is issue was a huge improvement from the last one, but it still lacks a lot of quality. At least Colossus' hair is not metallic anymore, although the art still sucks, except for the last page with Jean going all Phoenix.
Kirkman's writing on this arc just doesn't feel right. It suited "Date Night" to have individual stories for each character but this story needs to go on a direction, and it seems like it's split in three parts.
Nightcrawler hating Peter for what he is was a nice twist, so now we get to see real intolerance within the pages of this book and the fact that he's supposed to be a "good guy" makes it better. But as you guys said, he'll probably end up befriending Pete again but still annoyed by his preferences. The build up for his future relationship with Dazzler (see the cover of the new Annual) is going well. But how can he say he's now all alone, when it has been show that he's a good friend of Storm too, as well as Jean's? Just being dramatic I guess.
Now, we really need a good reason for the Brotherhood to show up and attack the Academy within next issue. The Brotherhood showing up at the dance reminds me a lot of the X-Men Evolution animated series, but the Ultimate Britherhood are mutant terrorists and not just a band of morons, so it makes no sense. More of the friendship of Cyclops and Toad needs to be seen. And this Magician guy...he's totally unnecesary, so Mary Sue and I wish Jean will burn him alive. Everything about him has been said here before so I won't bother to insult him even more.
I'm also longing to see which Storm's greatest fear was, but my guess is that it will be claustrophobia. However, since she doesn't have the African past, it may have been originated differently or it's just something else and that's what Kirkman wants us to believe by not showing what it is, so it "surprises" us by showing that it's a totally different thing.

Only the Phoenix story was worth getting the issue. The interaction with Jean and Lilandry was perfect, and how she porogresively loses control was great. And so it seems the Shi'Ar were the hell wrong about the Phoenix, and now they've unleashed it. But it seems Kirkman's not going for a Dark Phoenix saga right now, since the next storyline will be dedicated to his great Magician... hopefully Singer will work the Phoenix stuff. I also noticed about Jean's relationship with her parents. On Ultimate War and one of Millar's last issues they showed she was actually close to them and that her father cares about her, although she may be resentfull to them for sending her to the mental institution. Just hope next issue will be more Phoenix and less Magician.. nice to have a dream...

lament

05-20-2006, 07:40 PM

This issue was okay, but I feel kind of letdown that we barely got to see any of Peter and Jean-Paul's date before everything broke loose. Hopefully, we'll get to see them interact after this is over.

Kurt = bigot. Not liking his attitude, but I do kind of like that someone in the book is being a jerk. I hope he gets smacked down or comes to his senses soon, but for now, I like that he's an a$$.

Korinthian

05-21-2006, 03:14 AM

Okay, first of all, when did Colossus turn into a wuss?

Colossus: "they're... too many" I guess breaking free from 5-7 multiple men is harder than lifting a submarine, eh? Give me a break. He should have been able to walk away, with the pesky clones hanging off his back like they didn't matter.

I like the turn Nightcrawler's character is taking, if any one x-men shouldn't be mentally perfect, it's Nightcrawler. It would be more interesting if it turned out he was somewhat self-destructive and unconsciously isolated himself from everybody, that would make sense, in a way, since he looks the way he does.

I'm pretty sure given Kirkman's other works that he isn't going to write this off as Kurt having issues with the homosexuality, per se. I think he's going to write it as, while Peter being gay does make Kurt uncomfortable, Nightcrawler's more hurt and upset because his friend kept something from him.

This sounds like something straight out of a soap opera. I don't like it at all. It sounds like a pretty thin excuse and makes for a too easy solution ("I'm sorry I didn't tell you I was a homo!" "Oh, okay then, let's be friends again.") to a complicated, and interesting dilemma.

I have said earlier that I dislike magic, and this issue clearly explains why, as has been discussed earlier in this thread. I mean, the guy had no control whatsoever over his powers, then he takes a stroll through the x-mansion and is suddenly David Flerping Copperfield? Way to develop a character, Kirkman. Even if he did turn into a villain now, nobody would care since he is as interesting as Ultimate Vulture. I hope he explodes his genitals the next time he magically transforms his clothes.

Considering he's a mutant, and was a trained killer, he should be more accepting of other people and things they can't change.

Are you assuming Nightcrawler knows homosexuals can't be 'cured'? There is no law that states that 'freaks' are more understanding and caring than others, in fact, I could well imagine someone looking like Nightcrawler being prejudiced to the extreme, trying to blame the world for his misfortune or whatnot (it is not unheard of). And how does being a trained killer make you more sane, btw? My guess is that being forced to kill people could likely have the opposite effect.

And on the whole christian homophobia debate. I know that it is not an entirely baseless accusation, christian fundamentalists (read: extremists) are given a lot of room in media which paints all christians in the same color. I haven't seen any statistics, but my guess is that most christians are pretty much normal people after all. One thing that is interesting, though, is the fact that opinions based on religion are much harder to change, and the emotions involved with that opinion are often more heated.

Anyways, this issue deserves:

3 / 7

(I'm being generous again.)

Toboe

05-21-2006, 02:31 PM

I just watched a tv spot from the upcoming X-Men 3 movie, featuring Iceman and Pyro, and they show a scene with both of them fighting EXACTLY like Sunspot and Iceman on this issue. Coincidence that this is the issue that will be on stores when the movie comes out?

FieryBalrog

05-22-2006, 01:00 AM

Okay, first of all, when did Colossus turn into a wuss?

Colossus: "they're... too many" I guess breaking free from 5-7 multiple men is harder than lifting a submarine, eh? Give me a break. He should have been able to walk away, with the pesky clones hanging off his back like they didn't matter.

I like the turn Nightcrawler's character is taking, if any one x-men shouldn't be mentally perfect, it's Nightcrawler. It would be more interesting if it turned out he was somewhat self-destructive and unconsciously isolated himself from everybody, that would make sense, in a way, since he looks the way he does.

This sounds like something straight out of a soap opera. I don't like it at all. It sounds like a pretty thin excuse and makes for a too easy solution ("I'm sorry I didn't tell you I was a homo!" "Oh, okay then, let's be friends again.") to a complicated, and interesting dilemma.

I have said earlier that I dislike magic, and this issue clearly explains why, as has been discussed earlier in this thread. I mean, the guy had no control whatsoever over his powers, then he takes a stroll through the x-mansion and is suddenly David Flerping Copperfield? Way to develop a character, Kirkman. Even if he did turn into a villain now, nobody would care since he is as interesting as Ultimate Vulture. I hope he explodes his genitals the next time he magically transforms his clothes.

Are you assuming Nightcrawler knows homosexuals can't be 'cured'? There is no law that states that 'freaks' are more understanding and caring than others, in fact, I could well imagine someone looking like Nightcrawler being prejudiced to the extreme, trying to blame the world for his misfortune or whatnot (it is not unheard of). And how does being a trained killer make you more sane, btw? My guess is that being forced to kill people could likely have the opposite effect.

And on the whole christian homophobia debate. I know that it is not an entirely baseless accusation, christian fundamentalists (read: extremists) are given a lot of room in media which paints all christians in the same color. I haven't seen any statistics, but my guess is that most christians are pretty much normal people after all. One thing that is interesting, though, is the fact that opinions based on religion are much harder to change, and the emotions involved with that opinion are often more heated.

Anyways, this issue deserves:

3 / 7

(I'm being generous again.)

Religious fundamentalists in all countries are intolerant of homosexuality, including from personal experience Hinduism and Islam.

Crash-Man

05-22-2006, 08:29 AM

This issue is meh, pure and simple.

It is.

I don't want to lay the blame on Kirkman alone, because I think the terrible art has something to do with it. The art just looks...incomplete, and amateurish.

warspite1805

05-22-2006, 03:39 PM

So basically making Nightcrawler a homophobe seems to be carrying on an Ultimate Universe tradiition. Of taking a well known loved character and making them an arse in the namew of making the series more "gritty".
Lets see

Nightcrawler - Homophobe
Hulk - Murder\canabal
Wolverine - All round scumbag, lacking the honour cade that made the original cool
Hank Pym - wife beater
Captain America - A complete Dick
Black Widow - traitor
Quicksilver\Scarlet Witch - involved in an incestuous relationship
Tony Stark - A drunk

I probably forgotton a few

Korinthian

05-22-2006, 03:44 PM

I know, but the weird thing is that I care more about the characters now, not less.

Toboe

05-22-2006, 05:20 PM

I know, but the weird thing is that I care more about the characters now, not less.

Me too. I hated Nightcrawler being all religious and goody good. Now having him being an intolerant homophobe brings much more interesting possibilities for the character. Same goes for Captain Yankee. I like him better as a dick than just a patriotic guy who is benefic. That he figured out that when the enemy is down it's the best time to kick 'em just made me like him for the first time. And I don't get what the charm of Tony Stark would be if he wasn't drunk all the time. The Hulk seems more reasonable to me as an animalistic cannibal and murderer, same as Logan (although everyday they are more like the 616 versions anyway...). Hank Pym's marriage finally blows off some steam. And the Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch's incestuous relationship is one of the coolest twists on the Ultimate universe. I guess all of this makes the characters more human, and not just the perfect goody heros they used to be.

TJ Shoun

05-22-2006, 10:20 PM

Once upon a time the Ultimate Universe was created and written as a complete deviation from it's 616 parent.

Then along came Vaughan who tried to mirror the mainline Marvel U as best he could.

If Ultimate Logan is an unredeemable ass, so be it.

If Ultimate Peter is a flaming homosexual, so be it.

If Ultimate Kurt is a right-wing bigot, so be it.

If Ultimate Cap is a close-minded, old-fashioned jerk, so be it.

If Ultimate Black Widow is a traitrous bitch, so be it.

etc, etc.

The more variance we get from the regular Marvel U, the better. Otherwise, there's no point in publishing the Ultimate line to begin with.

I may not personally agree with all the characterizations of of the Ultimate characters, but it's not Marvel's responsibility to sell books that don't offend me.

Oliver's art is adequate but uninspiring. I'd love to see Raney back.

And yeah, I'd take Kirkman over Vaughan any day.

malephoenix

05-23-2006, 02:19 AM

what, drop your drawers an dance around?

What? Is it Tuesday again already?

Xany Kaos

05-23-2006, 06:28 AM

What? Is it Tuesday again already?

*shecks watch* Yep. C'mon, get crackin'.

The Fury

05-23-2006, 10:19 AM

I liked this issue, but my passion for the book is still in doubt.

Although the Toad/Scott scene was good considerign they used to chat on the phone and be friends.

Xany Kaos

05-23-2006, 01:07 PM

I'm really hoping that when it comes time to round up the villians, Toad and Scott have a "moment" of sorts (quick exchange of words or something), and Scott lets Toad escape behind the others' back. It would be an instresting little subplot waiting to pop up later when things calm back down.

I dunno, I always just thought their friendship was so intresting, Scott still being something of a boyscout, and yet we were never really shown much of it. But I think it stands to reason that if your friendship can survive one of you being a freaking terrorist who apparently enjoys his work and the other one flipping out and betraying you all (by which I mean Scott and the Brotherhood), and you're still cool enough to gab on the phone for hours...then that's some friendship, y'know?

Even if I weren't a Toad fangirl, I'd still want to see more, just for the sheer novelty.

Sean Whitmore

05-23-2006, 04:42 PM

I dunno, I always just thought their friendship was so intresting, Scott still being something of a boyscout, and yet we were never really shown much of it. But I think it stands to reason that if your friendship can survive one of you being a freaking terrorist who apparently enjoys his work and the other one flipping out and betraying you all (by which I mean Scott and the Brotherhood), and you're still cool enough to gab on the phone for hours...then that's some friendship, y'know?

I dunno, I never really got the vibe that they were "friends". Anyone can get into a long conversation about something they like with a classmate or co-worker, but it doesn't make you bosom buddies with them.

SEAN

Xany Kaos

05-23-2006, 04:58 PM

But from the sound of things, them being on the phone all the time was a coomon thing--at least two occassions shown, and Professor X not batting an eye about it.

Besides, it would be intresting.

malephoenix

05-23-2006, 05:14 PM

And on the whole christian homophobia debate. I know that it is not an entirely baseless accusation, christian fundamentalists (read: extremists) are given a lot of room in media which paints all christians in the same color. I haven't seen any statistics, but my guess is that most christians are pretty much normal people after all. One thing that is interesting, though, is the fact that opinions based on religion are much harder to change, and the emotions involved with that opinion are often more heated.

This was eloquent and intelligent. Thank you, Korinthian.

I want to mention that although a lot of people claim to be Christian and they say some very harsh (and very wrong) things, “homophobia” is too vague of a term to apply in this sense. Because the Bible represents homosexuality as wrong, but it also does the same for extra-marital relationships that are heterosexual. It’s just that a lot of people don’t know how to behave with that, and end up saying garbage like "God doesn't love homosexuals."

Are you assuming Nightcrawler knows homosexuals can't be 'cured'? There is no law that states that 'freaks' are more understanding and caring than others, in fact, I could well imagine someone looking like Nightcrawler being prejudiced to the extreme, trying to blame the world for his misfortune or whatnot (it is not unheard of). And how does being a trained killer make you more sane, btw? My guess is that being forced to kill people could likely have the opposite effect.

Some more good stuff in this paragraph, too. Good food for thought. Although, using the word “cured” may be leading.

Yeah, there are extremists who claim to be Christian who say some *really extreme* things. But the root of it all is supposed to be the life Christ led, and he never presented it as this person or that person “should” go to hell. On the contrary, as with the woman caught in adultery, he said that just as no one else could condemn her, neither did he. At the same time as he doesn’t condemn, her, though, he also says to “go and leave your life of sin.” Christ didn’t go around condemning (unfortunately the opposite of what a lot of “Christians” do today) but he did go around healing, forgiving *and* saying “don’t sin any more.”

That said, I’m not sure what to make of your first sentence in this paragraph, but I personally know dozens (and know of a couple hundred more) individuals who were in homosexual lifestyles, and now are either in heterosexual relationships or just not in any relationships at all, and they’re doing just fine. One of them is a local preacher who just simply says that he’s attracted to men, but because of the Biblical text, he just abstains from relationships, just as an alcoholic would abstain from getting drunk if he were enticed by alcohol. I wouldn’t call it “curing” anything. And some individuals might get mad at that entire concept, but those individuals have a different belief system than those that I am talking about who are no longer involved in homosexual lifestyles.

…man, what a touchy subject…

Korinthian

05-23-2006, 11:10 PM

I know a mormon who thinks (I don't know if this is a common mormon thing) that homosexuals can be cured through prayer. Cured as in becoming heterosexual.

The Foreigner

05-23-2006, 11:50 PM

I know a mormon who thinks (I don't know if this is a common mormon thing) that homosexuals can be cured through prayer. Cured as in becoming heterosexual.

I'm a Mormon; that's not a common belief, trust me. We don't marry our cousisns or more than one wife either.

malephoenix

05-23-2006, 11:58 PM

I know a mormon who thinks (I don't know if this is a common mormon thing) that homosexuals can be cured through prayer. Cured as in becoming heterosexual.

Wish they didn't use that term. (It doesn't even make sense to me; it sounds like it would be the same as your mormon friend saying that a drunk or a kleptomaniac could be "cured." I don't get it.)

But then again, it really doesn’t make sense to me either, that someone would be upset with a mormon, Christian, Muslim, or whatever for believing homosexuality is wrong. It doesn’t make any sense to me to say “Every belief system is great, but only if part of it is that you belief what I believe.” As FieryBalrog posted earlier:

Good post. One would think tolerance means exactly that... tolerating different viewpoints.

Unfortunately, I know just as many homosexuals who are vicious against Christians as I do Christians who are vicious against homosexuals… There’s a breakdown in there, somewhere.

We don't marry our cousisns or more than one wife either.

ROFL…

Wish that such a thing didn’t need to be said out loud, but I can appreciate you clearing that up. Still cracks me up, though.

Xany Kaos

05-24-2006, 02:30 AM

Korinthian

05-24-2006, 05:48 AM

We don't marry our cousisns or more than one wife either.

But you can't deny the holy underwear! Hah!

malephoenix

05-24-2006, 06:43 AM

Nothing like geek-stuff (ie: comics) to bring people of all faiths together to hash out reality from media.

I dunno, right now this thread reminds me of being at a convention--everyone loves everyone...d'aw...

on topic, has Ulti-Kurt ever been established as religious? Granted, that's the only reason I can think of that he would use such a high-falootin' word as "abomination" but if this is gonna be the first bit of evidence...I'm upset, not that he's a homphobic Christian, but that our first look into his faith is as a bigot who hides prejudice behind dogma.

I'd actually be equally upset if they introduce his faith this way, and then "develop" him to where he pulls a 180. Because, if his feelings now are based on faith, and they're immediately going to be changed, then his faith is obviously not very convicted.

Suiciety

05-24-2006, 06:54 AM

I've had enough of Kirkman and the idiot editors!

Since when does Colossus get owned by the Multiple Man and a bunch of snot nosed upstarts?!?

For the love of the deity we project...this is the same Colossus that took out Thor and Iron Man within seconds. This is the same Colossus that stopped a massive speeding train like it was nothing. This is the same Colossus that lifted and dragged a 100 + ton Russian sub from the bottom of the ocean. I mean, WTF, Kirkman, where is your head? And the editors...stop sniffin' glue and wake the fcuk up! Oh, waitaminute...I'm being too much of a Colossus homer...you guys are right...at least they got his hair color correct this time around (Oh, btw, Colossus' hair armors up like the rest of his body. In issue 69 Marvel colored it silver instead of black). Bah!

I guess all of the past Ult X-Men issues written by Millar mean nothing to the editors and upcoming writers?!

And oh, hey Kirkman, ya fool - since when does Petey have a thick Russian accent? He's lived in the States for years since he was a kid, ya dumb Kentucky hillbilly! Do some background before hopping onto a new comic.

BTW, The Walking Dead and Invincible rock! I'm not a Kirkman hater...just hate it when knuckleheads mess with my favorite Marvel character...and that's Colossus for the visually impaired!

Kirkman and Ult X-Men editors: get your $hit together or your gonna lose a customer (and I know I'm not the only fanboy out there that feels this way).

Chyort vahzmee!!!

Oh, and hi, I'm knew to this forum. :)

sgt pepper

05-24-2006, 08:40 AM

Didn't Mastermind say something like, "It took me long enough to figure out what her phobia was" (Sorry, don't have the issue in front of me). Isn't claustraphobia a fairly common phobia? Isn't that one of the first ones he would try, or is he a complete idiot? Also, isn't Storm standing up and looking fairly unconfined in the drawing?

So if Storm turns out to have her 616 phobia, this will prove a lame red herring.

Korinthian

05-24-2006, 08:51 AM

Scaring her is dumb. Just make her attack her team mates.

Sheesh.

Xany Kaos

05-24-2006, 09:04 AM

Scaring her's more fun.

I think Ulti-Storm's fear is something other than claustraphobia. Then again, with a writer/artist team like this...who can tell?

Since when does Colossus get owned by the Multiple Man and a bunch of snot nosed upstarts?!?

For the love of the deity we project...this is the same Colossus that took out Thor and Iron Man within seconds. This is the same Colossus that stopped a massive speeding train like it was nothing. This is the same Colossus that lifted and dragged a 100 + ton Russian sub from the bottom of the ocean. I mean, WTF, Kirkman, where is your head?

I'm reminded of Joss Whedon's comment about how fast Serenity travels--at the speed of plot.
Superhero strength isn't something pinned down. It's whatever's convinent for the plot. Granted, Colossus still shouldn't be flailing around going "There's too many of these scrawny little guys! Waaaaah!" But if Colossus-the-mutant-who-defeated-Thor-and-Iron-Man were fighting this battle, it would've been over last issue. While some may argue that's a good thing, it wouldn't've made for any advancement of the plot, such that there was.

...I think I've got a problem with minor-skirmish fight scenes that drag on for three issues...

Sean Whitmore

05-24-2006, 12:46 PM

Granted, Colossus still shouldn't be flailing around going "There's too many of these scrawny little guys! Waaaaah!" But if Colossus-the-mutant-who-defeated-Thor-and-Iron-Man were fighting this battle, it would've been over last issue.

What about the Colossus who got owned by Ultimate Falcon? ;)

SEAN

Xany Kaos

05-24-2006, 01:17 PM

Case in point. Power fluctuates with plot.

I love your sig-tag.

Korinthian

05-24-2006, 01:41 PM

And it shouldn't, because it's bad writing.

Xany Kaos

05-24-2006, 06:09 PM

Eh, power fluctuates with plot pretty much no matter who's writing it. Good writers keep it a little more consistant, but still...

Heck, you could just blame Millar for setting up an incredibly unbeatable Colossus.

...or you could blame Kirkman for failing to up the ante and have stronger villians.

Maybe it's the Magician altering reality! That's a good explanation, right guys? [/sarcasm]

Suiciety

05-25-2006, 07:33 AM

Toboe

05-25-2006, 05:32 PM

I see your point - but can't completely agree. You can't blame Millar. He created an aggro and angst driven Colossus. Which, if you think about it, is rather anti stereotypical for a gay character. But we all know Millar had similar "fun" with the Midnighter and Apollo. Other writers should respect his creation and honor it. All I've seen thus far (especially from Kirkman) is a major dis!

I agrre with you. Millar's Colossus was portrayed as a strong, masculine angst driven character, but just with the hints back then that he was gay, which seemed so anti stereotypical, as you said, and this is why I loved Ultimate Colossus, beacuse he wasn't a walking stereotype like most gay characaters are often depicted everywhere.
Now, Bendis only had him say just one word (Rogue!) for two arcs, so oviously he didn't much with the character (apparently he noticed that and thus gave him an important role on the crappy Deadpool arc on USM).
I actually liked Vaughan's Colossus. It felt a little different from Millar's, but remained Colossus, as we get to see on the Danger Room session with Wolverine (I guess his crush on him ended when he acknowledged Logan attempted to kill Cyclops, or not?), and a lot of him is shown on the Most Dangerous Game. Also, the scene on issue 50 with him having troubles with the strenght game was hillarious.
But then, after he "came out" to Nightcrawler, Kikman portrays him as a weak stereotypical gay character who gets beaten up by five skinny guys wehen he has beaten up Thor and Iron Man, stopped a railroad in movement and got a submarine back to the surface. Although, of course, all of this can be the mighty Magician altering reality [insert sarcasm here, again]. Or perhaps he's got a dragon tattoo, if things keep going as they are...