Well, now we know what happens to Batgirl (Robin 150 spoilers)

[IamtheRock3]

Apparenly she found out she had a sister, Cain lied to her about. She killed her sister. Set up others villans in the batgirl suit to die , Went crazy, running the leauge of assains killing villans, kiling the orginal leader forget her name..wasnt shiva though nassa or something. And want Robin to kill with her

Said batman was just using them all as bait, want to embrace her murderous heridage..and want Robin to kill cain, been leading him to this point

[The Cool Thatguy]

...christ what lousy writing. How hard do we have to beg Gail to undo this crap?

[OverMaster]

... Christ, compared to this, Spoiler got it easy.

[muimi]

Geezus, what did they do to Cassandra?! :( Dammit.

[Jack Roberts]

They have to butcher her character so there are fewer "waves" when Barbara gets back in the suit. This is how these people think . . .

[DarthAstuart]

i don't really know these characters that well. a lot of this happened while I was away from comics.

but why does cassandra kill her own sister? what's the motivation they offer for that? sounds like that'd have to be some pretty freaking amazing writing to pull that off in a compelling and sense-making way.

[IamtheRock3]

i don't really know these characters that well. a lot of this happened while I was away from comics.

but why does cassandra kill her own sister? what's the motivation they offer for that? sounds like that'd have to be some pretty freaking amazing writing to pull that off in a compelling and sense-making way.


To be fair I skimmed

But what I got from it is

He felt despite the fact Cain made her a killer at least he was honest about 1 thing..He love her. That she was unique..speacil

finding she has a sister changes thats.

[IamtheRock3]

yup dcboard back me on it

That what happen

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000076206&tstart=0

[Nate Grey]

To be fair I skimmed

But what I got from it is

He felt despite the fact Cain made her a killer at least he was honest about 1 thing..He love her. That she was unique..speacil

finding she has a sister changes thats.

wouldn't that make her think Cain is even sicker than she already thought? Her new "daddy" was Batman, so given that it makes even less sense.

If Batman went around the world with his "children", his "sons" (Dick and Tim), for a year, why didn't he take his "daughter" too?

This doesn't make any sense...I need more info, so as soon as I get off work I'm fast-tailing it to the comic store.

[The Cool Thatguy]

wouldn't that make her think Cain is even sicker than she already thought? Her new "daddy" was Batman, so given that it makes even less sense.

If Batman went around the world with his "children", his "sons" (Dick and Tim), for a year, why didn't he take his "daughter" too?

This doesn't make any sense...I need more info, so as soon as I get off work I'm fast-tailing it to the comic store.

The sad part is Cass could make a legitmate case for abuse and neglect against Batman, but they choose to shoe horn in some crappy explanation then shove her into a refrigerator. Lovely.

[Jmacq1]

Yeah, that was a GAPING HUGE HOLE in the whole "Batman runs around the world with Tim and Dick" side-story. Apparently Oracle (Who's like a big sister to Cassandra) and Batman (Who became her surrogate father figure) just got SBP-punched into plot-induced amnesia where it came to Cassandra.

Or more accurately, they needed her "slot" vacant so they could introduce the "kewl new" Batwoman to the DCU without interference. Guess which title I -won't- be buying? Heck, I'm not buying -any- DC titles after this fiasco. I just can't justify spending the money on a company that feels it can be so cavalier about spitting in the eye of 25,000 or so fans (the consistent sales average for the old "Batgirl" title).

[DarkCrisis]

And thus another good character ruined.

[Choppa]

Strokes of Azrael when he put back on the AzBats suit in a pathetic attempt at resurging interest before he was cancelled.

[Jmacq1]

Except Batgirl was -already- cancelled, so there's no title left for this "shocking move" to bolster. This is basically being done just to shuffle off a character that Didio and some of his "golden boys" don't like. Cause y'know, she isn't Barbara Gordon, and that's -so- not "Silver Age" of her. So she must be destroyed.

[Corrina]

You know.....

Barbara Gordon: crippled. ("Let's cripple the bitch," said Len Wein. Yes, that's a true quote.)

Sarah Essen: dead.

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.

Spoiler: tortured and dead.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins: written as a murderer and now useless.

Cassandra Cain: turned evil with little to no motivation.

Renee Montoya: off the force and a drunk. (Though with a small chance for redemption in 52, if she's not killed.)

Are there any women of strong character left in the Bat-universe? Of course, the male characters haven't turned out that well (see Nightwing), but Bats himself is back, Gordon is back, Tim Drake is doing okay and Alfred is back.

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.

[IamtheRock3]

You know I am not going to refuse to read Dc comics

Nor will I not read batwoman if it Babra (Sense I like Barbra)

But I ALSO like batgirl..did they really HAVE to destroy the charcter. Really..was that neccesary

Why not just have Cassandra be Kussumi again

or heck..if it Barbra..she like a sister to Cassandra. They could be batwoman and batgirl or something. Would fit.

[Mia]

You know.....

Barbara Gordon: crippled. ("Let's cripple the bitch," said Len Wein. Yes, that's a true quote.)

Sarah Essen: dead.

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.

Spoiler: tortured and dead.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins: written as a murderer and now useless.

Cassandra Cain: turned evil with little to no motivation.

Renee Montoya: off the force and a drunk. (Though with a small chance for redemption in 52, if she's not killed.)

Are there any women of strong character left in the Bat-universe? Of course, the male characters haven't turned out that well (see Nightwing), but Bats himself is back, Gordon is back, Tim Drake is doing okay and Alfred is back.

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.


Oh please....and let's not forget Huntress having sex with a man who just treated her like a piece of crap.


It's a conspiracy! DC hates women! It's why I get my female (comic book) role models from Marvel.

[Corrina]

Well, true, but at least Huntress got a new and less stupid costume. :)

[Mia]

Ugh... Personally I think it looks stupid. If they want to make her look modest again they should have gone right back to the 'Contagion' costume. The one she wore before Lee changed it.

[Blight]

You know.....

Barbara Gordon: crippled. ("Let's cripple the bitch," said Len Wein. Yes, that's a true quote.)

Sarah Essen: dead.

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.

Spoiler: tortured and dead.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins: written as a murderer and now useless.

Cassandra Cain: turned evil with little to no motivation.

Renee Montoya: off the force and a drunk. (Though with a small chance for redemption in 52, if she's not killed.)

Are there any women of strong character left in the Bat-universe? Of course, the male characters haven't turned out that well (see Nightwing), but Bats himself is back, Gordon is back, Tim Drake is doing okay and Alfred is back.

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.


Indeed.. after reading this issue I canceled EVERY DC book I had in my pull list save for GL.

And let's not forget what DC did with Catwoman.. yeah other than BoP I'm really sensing a vast conspiracy Didio has against female Batman characters.

If I where Talia fans right now I be worried. Cause she's the only one left now who hasn't been touched by DC's wrath on inflicting female characters of Batman.

There are no words to describe how pissed I am at DC. Why the hell make a character who was in a steady book: cancel it, then make her a villain just a few months after the cancelation?

WHY!?

:mad:

[gloss]

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.
That's really well-put. I wish it wasn't true, but it *is*.

[devinost]

This blows. I hope they don't make (Kate) manhunter her new partner in evil

Also they made Spoilers death even less. If Cass cared for Spoiler she would want to keep Spoilers dreams alive and still be a crime fighter. This p*sses me off

[effang]

Yeah, that was a GAPING HUGE HOLE in the whole "Batman runs around the world with Tim and Dick" side-story. Apparently Oracle (Who's like a big sister to Cassandra) and Batman (Who became her surrogate father figure) just got SBP-punched into plot-induced amnesia where it came to Cassandra.

Or more accurately, they needed her "slot" vacant so they could introduce the "kewl new" Batwoman to the DCU without interference. Guess which title I -won't- be buying? Heck, I'm not buying -any- DC titles after this fiasco. I just can't justify spending the money on a company that feels it can be so cavalier about spitting in the eye of 25,000 or so fans (the consistent sales average for the old "Batgirl" title).

heard there is a petition out there to change this crap back. this angers me so. i would rather batman go insane for a few issues than this. what a waste of 70 comics.

anyways, somebody find that petition, or rewrite one, and let's shove it up DCU's pee gu

[Horror Business]

i haven't read the issue and i'm sure its bad but is that really a reason to get drop every dc book?

[jerrymcl89]

i haven't read the issue and i'm sure its bad but is that really a reason to get drop every dc book?

I don't think so. But it's a good reason to drop this one.

[Chocolove]

OMFG, you didn't state spoilers ! How dare you !! What made you think I have common sense ?!?!!!!?+++

Apparenly she found out she had a sister, Cain lied to her about. She killed her sister. Set up others villans in the batgirl suit to die , Went crazy, running the leauge of assains killing villans, kiling the orginal leader forget her name..wasnt shiva though nassa or something. And want Robin to kill with her

Said batman was just using them all as bait, want to embrace her murderous heridage..and want Robin to kill cain, been leading him to this point

Huh. I was actually digging Robin for a while. Not to say I am a huge fan of Batgirl, but I'm also not a fan of gratuitous character destruction especially when illogical. Last time I checked Cassie wasn't mentally unstable and I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose to resolve sibling rivalry with murder. I've noticed in general being someone's sibling isn't very pleasant in the DCU. But I'll at least finish this story before making a real decision, as I like Robin and the way that character is being handlded.

[IamtheRock3]

OMFG, you didn't state spoilers ! How dare you !! What made you think I have common sense ?!?!!!!?+++



Um what part of "NOW WE KNOW WHAT HAPPEN TO BATGIRL ...then put (this weeks robin) doesnt say Spoiler.It applies that it dicuss what happens to batgirl. It is also applies that this happen in This weeks Robin.Huh. I was actually digging Robin for a while. Not to say I am a huge fan of Batgirl, but I'm also not a fan of gratuitous character destruction especially when illogical. Last time I checked Cassie wasn't mentally unstable and I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose to resolve sibling rivalry with murder. I've noticed in general being someone's sibling isn't very pleasant in the DCU. But I'll at least finish this story before making a real decision, as I like Robin and the way that character is being handlded.


Well she just found out I guess. not a good explanation but neither was Leslie stuff.

[IamtheRock3]

opps didnt catch the common sense line..never mind

[Horror Business]

I don't think so. But it's a good reason to drop this one.

thats understandable.

[choptop]

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.
WTF Vesper Fairchild got raped................?

[ChthonicSpirit]

WTF Vesper Fairchild got raped................?

Its dark and realistic, right?

[Generic Eric]

Bummer, Major bummer. Why do good characters have to be torn down to make other characters interesting. (i.e. Robin)

[choptop]

Its dark and realistic, right?
who raped her and wen?

[jerrymcl89]

Bummer, Major bummer. Why do good characters have to be torn down to make other characters interesting. (i.e. Robin)

I fail to see how this makes Tim any more or less interesting. It just traps him in a story that sucks.

[Corrina]

WTF Vesper Fairchild got raped................?

It was offscreen. When David Cain beat and killed her, he also raped her.

(Rape was among the charges against Bruce Wayne for the crime.)

[shaxper]

Man this issue sucked.

I was already done with it when Tim got to the Ultra Violet laser cave. Not only is there NO WAY he could have pulled that off, but there's definitely no way he was able to pull it off on the return route while carrying David Caine. This was just ridiculous.

Then, there was no way the Tim I knew would have bought Cassandra' argument about Batman for even a second. Tim spent years carefully tracking Batman and getting into his head before he even made his first appearance. He knew damn well how Bruce felt about Dick and Jason and has said as much on many occasions. That dropped jaw look of surprised hurt doesn't fly with me, even if he got over it in the next moment and only pretended to be going along with Cassandra after.

I've never read Batgirl, but this version of Cassandra sucked ass, and I've only heard good things about her in the past, so I have to assume someone F'ed this up big time.

The art was lousy, particularly Batman's face in that flashback.

I'm so dropping this title...

[Sharpandpointies]

*seriously cannot think of anything else to say that hasn't been said by now*

[Generic Eric]

I fail to see how this makes Tim any more or less interesting. It just traps him in a story that sucks.

I don't think it really makes him less interesting. I just don't like how alot of Batman comics lately have to fuck over or kill supporting characters to make a story plot work:mad: .

[Nate Grey]

I'm not sure I want to read a DC where redemption is impossible. Pretty much all I can add to what's already been said.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm not sure I want to read a DC where redemption is impossible. Pretty much all I can add to what's already been said.

Oh, yeah. That too. What's the point if even the most dedicated can't transcend their origins?

Meh. I buy it not. As someone else said elsewhere (and possibly here), I'd rather she stayed dead and true to herself.

[BYC]

Maybe she got unstable from Superboy Prime's retcon punch.

That's how DC would explain it.

[Blight]

Just out of curiousity was that Cassie who was spying on Tim in part one? The reason I ask this because someone in another forum suggested that maybe Shiva bore twins. I know I know :rolleyes: but here me out.

The woman spying on Robin and Batman had short hair we've seen Cassie have in her previous series. The Cassandra who appeared here had hair longer.

Also this Cassandra doesn't even mention two things: Bludhaven going boom or Steph's death as reasons behind this. What if Shiva gave birth to twins? And Cain as stated kept both girls seperated. I dunno maybe it's reasoning that seems too much thinking into a situation that shouldn't be.

But still.. it's but the only hope I have no thinking that Cassie hasn't fully gone evil.

[Nick Kal]

Batgirl as a villain creates an interesting bunch of stories for the Robin title... and it was justified... it wans't like she's automatically a villain without cause... so I don't get the complaints.

[forthepeople]

Is it completly impossible that this isnt Cassie but her sister pretending to be Cassie?Maybe DC has justs fooled us all with this story arc.

[ChthonicSpirit]

*seriously cannot think of anything else to say that hasn't been said by now*

How about: "Cass really, really needs to get herself laid".

[fuaak]

Let's see... so:


* Cassandra is now a villain. Not an "anti-hero", but a villain of the cackling, top-hat-wearing, moustache-twirling variety.

* The motivation for this is as follows:
- Yet ANOTHER survivor of Cain's training, and this time one that was also Cain's biological child, was RETCONNED in.
- Cassandra takes such offense at the idea of Daddy Dearest loving somebody else that she kills this second child, kills Nyssa, takes over the LoA and starts a harebrained scheme to get Tim to join, and kill David for her while he joins (I'm not making this up. Oh, and all of this is treated as if it happened just last week or so).


* Plot hole: Apparently nobody at the previous LoA knew about this second kid, with the way they worshipped Cassandra as the legendary "One Who Is All". This includes Ra's Al Ghul (who, as you remember, ordered the whole thing) who didn't employ this other kid as his god-bodyguard, in the role he had planned for Cassandra. That's just as well, it seems, because Cassandra defeats Kid 2 in about five seconds - something that probably shouldn't happen to somebody who finished David Cain's training.

* Plot hole: Also, apparently David Cain didn't know about her either, given how he was obsessed with Cass to the point of monomania for the majority of his existance. David Cain's only motivation for doing anything, EVER, has been to win back his daughter. Why the hell would that be so if he had a convenient spare?

* Plot hole: Simply put, Cassandra's motive or plan doesn't make sense on any level, nor does her expectation that Tim would change sides after she goes through a few of Nyssa's talking points.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra has officially pulled a 180 turn on her character-defining "everybody can change" philosophy to the point of saying that nobody can change - with no logical or plausible motivation whatsoever.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra states that she hated David Cain's training and pushed on through only because she thought David loved her and only her. This is contrary to her series, which made it plenty clear that all of her torturous training was just an innocent game to her, and that she was perfectly happy until she learned what death really means.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra rambles insanely about how she and Tim "will be together". This serves to make her sound like a lovesick idiot, and makes one wonder where this behavior comes from, since she never showed she even particularly liked Tim.

* Plot hole: why the hell would Cassandra need or want Robin in her little outfit? She's got a million Mortal Kombat extras at her disposal. The only explanation I see is shoehorned-in romantic interest (see above).

* Plot hole: David Cain, the man who trained and fought evenly with Batman and defeated Deadshot with trivial ease, is easily subdued by Robin. What, is Tim supposed to have jumped from the least formidable street leveler in the DCU to Batman's physical equal now?


I'm not going to even touch little things like the Navajo. This whole arc makes sense only if we assume that 1) Cassandra is completely insane AND 2) this is an alternate reality where NONE of Batgirl's series ever happened, and basic plot points about her past are completely different.

[fuaak]

More:

David Cain had explicitly revealed to Batman that he only ever succeeded in training one kid, in a situation where he had no reason to lie. Also, Cassandra already KNEW that David Cain had attempted to train countless other children (albeit ones that died in training), and didn't seem the slightest bit jealous. So why would one more push her over the edge?

And are we supposed to understand that the only thing you need to survive Cain's training is to be related to David Cain? Why the hell did he go through the trouble of raping Shiva then?

Oh, and "Batman and Oracle changed you" is a fallacy. Cassandra changed herself long before she even knew of Batman or Oracle (though Tim may simply not understand that - he's misjudged Cassandra in that way before in his book).

[Jmacq1]

It was offscreen. When David Cain beat and killed her, he also raped her.

(Rape was among the charges against Bruce Wayne for the crime.)

Somebody double-check on this? Not that it's a huge deal, but that doesn't make any sense. Raping Vesper would have left DNA markers that Bruce could have easily used to clear his name. Unless he'd been with her prior to her getting killed, that would have given him a -huge- "out" and fingered the real killer.

Or it could be just sloppy writing on DC's part to not take this into account.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Batgirl as a villain creates an interesting bunch of stories for the Robin title... and it was justified... it wans't like she's automatically a villain without cause... so I don't get the complaints.

The complaints come from the fact the justification is weak, out of character and poorly thought out. There's no reason to savage Cass' character to give Robin another villain.

[Sharpandpointies]

How about: "Cass really, really needs to get herself laid".

*glumly* Even that couldn't save this situation.

[outlander78]

I think everyone who complains that comic books are too expensive needs to thank DC for greatly reducing the total cost (what you pay at the cach register) of collecting.

If we really are witnessing the slow death of this type of media, then DC is robbing us of remembering how they went out strong.

[fuaak]

I think everyone who complains that comic books are too expensive needs to thank DC for greatly reducing the total cost (what you pay at the cach register) of collecting.
Well that's something they've done really well. I've gone from five DC books to zero in three years.

[dekard49]

Wow, I havent read this title in a few years - sounds like it went well pear shaped :/

[Corrina]

The only way to resolve this would be for a conclusion that Cass is suffering from Lazarus Pit induced madness, that she's imagined half the murders she says she's committed, that Nyassa is still alive, sitting back and watching, and that Tim eventually cures her of the madness.

You could reset with Cassandra again having guilt at having a dark side and more determined to be a hero than ever.

[fuaak]

The only way to resolve this would be for a conclusion that Cass is suffering from Lazarus Pit induced madness, that she's imagined half the murders she says she's committed, that Nyassa is still alive, sitting back and watching, and that Tim eventually cures her of the madness.

You could reset with Cassandra again having guilt at having a dark side and more determined to be a hero than ever.
Wouldn't be enough, because this "Annalea" (whose existance David acknowledged) needs to be anti-retconned away. She breaks by her very existance Batgirl's entire damn origin story that we were just told in the last BG arc (as well as David Cain's entire character - hell, she makes David's behavior in this very same arc nonsensical. Why would he rot in Blackgate to appease his daughter, if he had another one?).

[Nick Soapdish]

Wow!

And I thought Spoiler got jobbed! (Well, she did, but nothing like this.)

But they can't use the Evil Twin cop-out to fix (part of) this? I can also buy the Lazarus Pit madness.

Sure, it doesn't fix why David Cain was rotting away in prison, but maybe he played favorites. (I'm assuming that when he acknowledged the sister, he also knew she was still alive.) And it doesn't fix Robin's random combat ability. Or how Lynx got better.

[DarkCrisis]

I'd say this ranks almost as high as the character assination/shoe-horning of Leslie Thompkins

[Jmacq1]

This is -worse- than Leslie, because Leslie didn't have a 73-issue solo-series that fully fleshed out her character.

But yes, it's not the fact that Cassandra is leading the League or even necessarily that she's killing people that's so abhorrent (after all, the last issue of her solo series seemed to start leaning her a bit in that direction). It's the -horrible- justification that's provided for it all, involving a completely unnecessary retcon and apparently some mind-boggling "daddy issues" that were never portrayed at -all- in her previous series. Not to say she didn't have "daddy issues" but it wasn't -anything- like this.

Cassandra -could- have been made into a -good-, fully realized, and even sympathetic antagonist for Robin and the Bat-Family. An "anti-hero" that shared the same goals but used distasteful methods to accomplish them (IE killing). (Just imagine a story that pits the Bat-Family against Cassandra in a race to save, say, The Joker from getting killed by her). And it would have been perfectly plausible given the last events that occurred in her solo title. She seemed to be coming to the realization that many comic-readers do: That -not- killing some people only leads to -more- people getting killed in the long run. That sometimes to save the many you have to kill the few.

Instead we get this out-of-left-field baloney about another daughter, and Cassandra becomes a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling, monologue-spewing villainess that doesn't remotely seem at all related to the character she was before.

Yes, it sucks that Cassandra is a villain at all, but at least it could have been handled in a manner that was -remotely- consistent with the characters' portrayal in the past. At least then it would have been worth reading to see where she goes from here. At this point I'm half convinced she'll be "dead" at the end of this story arc and never seen again so Didio and Co. can spotlight their new "Batwoman".

[matrix]

This is -worse- than Leslie, because Leslie didn't have a 73-issue solo-series that fully fleshed out her character.

But yes, it's not the fact that Cassandra is leading the League or even necessarily that she's killing people that's so abhorrent (after all, the last issue of her solo series seemed to start leaning her a bit in that direction). It's the -horrible- justification that's provided for it all, involving a completely unnecessary retcon and apparently some mind-boggling "daddy issues" that were never portrayed at -all- in her previous series. Not to say she didn't have "daddy issues" but it wasn't -anything- like this.

Cassandra -could- have been made into a -good-, fully realized, and even sympathetic antagonist for Robin and the Bat-Family. An "anti-hero" that shared the same goals but used distasteful methods to accomplish them (IE killing). (Just imagine a story that pits the Bat-Family against Cassandra in a race to save, say, The Joker from getting killed by her). And it would have been perfectly plausible given the last events that occurred in her solo title. She seemed to be coming to the realization that many comic-readers do: That -not- killing some people only leads to -more- people getting killed in the long run. That sometimes to save the many you have to kill the few.

Instead we get this out-of-left-field baloney about another daughter, and Cassandra becomes a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling, monologue-spewing villainess that doesn't remotely seem at all related to the character she was before. what they're doing to Cass is wrong on so many levels. i almost wish she was killed off, at least that a better way for her character to be remembered :mad:

[Blight]

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra rambles insanely about how she and Tim "will be together". This serves to make her sound like a lovesick idiot, and makes one wonder where this behavior comes from, since she never showed she even particularly liked Tim.


Well that's techincally not true, Cassie does have feelings for Tim. This was shown during the final Robin/Batgirl cross over when Tim was taking the bullet out of Cassie's shoulder. She just didn't know what to say to him when they were out of costume she was lost and admitted that under different circumstances if Steph hadn't died she might have pursued a relationship with him.

Also the writer of Batgirl made this rather easy to turn Cassie into a villain. And this is what pisses me off that it wasn't followed on. During the talk with Tim in #150 are the words Bludhaven or Steph ever mentioned?

On one hand, perhaps Cassie is attempting to protect Tim's identity cause not once does she call him Tim in front of her ninja buddies. It's always Robin. You could say that this is the reason why she doesn't utter Steph's name. She doesn't want any of her cornies to put two and two together.

However, given with Bludhaven going boom and all her friends perished in the explosion you think that would make a much more explainable turn then the one Cassie gives in #150.

I hope to God that this is an evil twin, however there's another reason why this doesn't make sense why Cain would train another. He tried multiple people before and what'd that get him? Mad Dog.

The only way I can possibly explain what's happened is that Cain tried at first with just a random female and Annalea. Yet, Cain see's flaws and not the results he wants. (after all CINO aka Cassandra in Name Only kills her rather easy maybe Cain realized how much a failure she was). Thus he thought maybe if he did it with a female on his level that the results where more to his liking. Thus enter Shiva.

[Damo]

Beechen flunks Batgirl 101.

I can understand that maybe he got orders from above to turn Cassandra into "JASON TODD II: THE RECKONING". Fine.

But even if he couldn't help that, he could help all the other things he got painfully wrong. Where to start?

1. Robin beating up and tying up an apparently sober David Cain.

What. The. Hell? Well I guess we've already seen Beechen have him tripping Lady Shiva, so I shouldn't be surprised. But maybe someone should tell Beechen that even Batman never beat the guy when he was sober. Even if he was drunk, this was Tim. Showing that he didn't even get injured while fighting Cain is absurd. This wasn't a litle mistake. This was a great big massive mistake with frickin' bells on.

2. Batgirl freaking out over finding out she has a sister? Um. Yeah. She kinda already knew Cain raised other kids. Bronze Tiger sat her down and told her about Cain raising a bunch of kids, who all went nuts and killed each other (the only survivor being Mad Dog Cain). Why is she surprised to know there were others? Why, for that matter, does she even give a damn? Bruce was her father figure now. Why does this turn her to killing? Beechen isn't just showing us he doesn't know Cass' history (and how hard could it be? It's not like she's been around for that long), he's screaming it at the top of his lungs.

3. Batgirl doesn't talk like that. Not just in terms of talking about killing and crap like that, but also in terms of that's just not her speech pattern. Yeah, sure, girl can change a lot in a year, but it's just one more thing.

There were other things that bugged me about this issue. Many many many other things. How Robin could tell that a bunch of ninjas were "the league of assassins" and not just, you know, ninjas. Why this whole elaborate scheme was needed when Batgirl could have just gotten Cain and Robin herself. How the Blackgate guards could not hear Tim's explosive (shaped charges, when they successfully redirect blast, which isn't always, are far from silent). Why Tim, supposedly a detective, didn't go "hey, wait a minute, how did the bad guys know this is a code only I can translate, when only Cass and Batman know that?" But you know what? I don't care any more. This is drek.

Short of having Dr. Ojo step out from the shadows and go "I brainwashed her, so this is more of a Bronze Tiger rip-off than a Jason Todd rip-off" I don't see how this wretched mess can be fixed.

Oh, and FYI. The title? "Hard Answers"? Yeah, the second I saw that I knew Beechen was going ahead with this nonsense, and that those blatant "Batgirl is a villain" clues weren't red herrings. Way to be subtle, jackass.

And the Didio you rode in on, Beechen.

[Jmacq1]

Beechen flunks Batgirl 101.

I can understand that maybe he got orders from above to turn Cassandra into "JASON TODD II: THE RECKONING". Fine.

But even if he couldn't help that, he could help all the other things he got painfully wrong. Where to start?

1. Robin beating up and tying up an apparently sober David Cain.

What. The. Hell? Well I guess we've already seen Beechen have him tripping Lady Shiva, so I shouldn't be surprised. But maybe someone should tell Beechen that even Batman never beat the guy when he was sober. Even if he was drunk, this was Tim. Showing that he didn't even get injured while fighting Cain is absurd. This wasn't a litle mistake. This was a great big massive mistake with frickin' bells on.

This is my new theory: They're trashing Cassandra and her supporting cast (since well, David's about the only member of it left) so they can bill Tim as "super badass Bat heir-apparent". I mean, he trips up Shiva and one-shots David "I go toe-to-toe with the goddamn Batman" Cain? At this point I'd almost have to wonder if Tim and Cassandra switched bodies somewhere along the way. Don't be surprised if Tim trumps her in a hand-to-hand contest next issue. :P Given how badly Beechen has butchered her character, I'm sure he'd have no trouble doing so to her fighting skills. Which incidentally, were always the -least- interesting part of the character for me, even if they provided great action sequences.

[Sharpandpointies]

This is my new theory: They're trashing Cassandra and her supporting cast (since well, David's about the only member of it left) so they can bill Tim as "super badass Bat heir-apparent". I mean, he trips up Shiva and one-shots David "I go toe-to-toe with the goddamn Batman" Cain? At this point I'd almost have to wonder if Tim and Cassandra switched bodies somewhere along the way. Don't be surprised if Tim trumps her in a hand-to-hand contest next issue. :P Given how badly Beechen has butchered her character, I'm sure he'd have no trouble doing so to her fighting skills. Which incidentally, were always the -least- interesting part of the character for me, even if they provided great action sequences.

You're right - that will be the next big thing.

Cass will be the villain to beat, to prove 'credentials'. That's all being 'the best' in the DCU means, if you're a villain. You become the means to prove a hero is bad-assed when they beat you.

[OverMaster]

You know.....

Barbara Gordon: crippled. ("Let's cripple the bitch," said Len Wein. Yes, that's a true quote.)

Sarah Essen: dead.

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.

Spoiler: tortured and dead.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins: written as a murderer and now useless.

Cassandra Cain: turned evil with little to no motivation.

Renee Montoya: off the force and a drunk. (Though with a small chance for redemption in 52, if she's not killed.)

Are there any women of strong character left in the Bat-universe? Of course, the male characters haven't turned out that well (see Nightwing), but Bats himself is back, Gordon is back, Tim Drake is doing okay and Alfred is back.

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.

And Poison Ivy was killed. OK, she got better, but she was another victim of Hush's jobber aura.

Oh, and two of the newly killed villains, Magpie and Orca, were females as well.

I'm kinda afraid for Harley now...

[matrix]

And Poison Ivy was killed. OK, she got better, but she was another victim of Hush's jobber aura.

Oh, and two of the newly killed villains, Magpie and Orca, were females as well.

I'm kinda afraid for Harley now... i actually liked Orca's character sadly. but i guess Dc saw her as a throw-away charcter.:(

[Blight]

And Poison Ivy was killed. OK, she got better, but she was another victim of Hush's jobber aura.

Oh, and two of the newly killed villains, Magpie and Orca, were females as well.

I'm kinda afraid for Harley now...

Harley is safe. Cause Paul Dini is there to protect her.

You know she'll be safe and ready to appear somewhere during his run. It's the one sure thing.

[lucifernomi]

Apparenly she found out she had a sister, Cain lied to her about. She killed her sister. Set up others villans in the batgirl suit to die , Went crazy, running the leauge of assains killing villans, kiling the orginal leader forget her name..wasnt shiva though nassa or something. And want Robin to kill with her

Said batman was just using them all as bait, want to embrace her murderous heridage..and want Robin to kill cain, been leading him to this point


Man... there was way too much information crammed into those last pages. So much to absorb immediately left me with kind of a "whaaa?" feeling.

[Blight]

Man... there was way too much information crammed into those last pages. So much to absorb immediately left me with kind of a "whaaa?" feeling.
Yeah I felt that too.. you think the writer for Robin would have at least kept all the info on the sister thing for the finale when Tim finally asks Cassie. But nope she just went on a Bond villain level rant. All that was missing was the cat and refering to Tim as Mr. Robin. :p

[lucifernomi]

Beechen flunks Batgirl 101.

Showing that he didn't even get injured while fighting Cain is absurd. This wasn't a litle mistake. This was a great big massive mistake with frickin' bells on.

Don't read too much into that. Robin jump kicked a very confused Cain and knocked him out. That's plausible. It doesn't matter who you are, a hard hit in the wrong part of you head at the wrong time CAN knock you out. In boxing it's called a flash punch, and there's nothing you can do to train yourself to prevent it. It was very lucky on Robin's part that Cain wasn't expecting a fight. Lets just leave it at that.

How Robin could tell that a bunch of ninjas were "the league of assassins" and not just, you know, ninjas.

Tim's an accomplished detective in his own right. It makes sense that he'd pick up on subtle things that gave them away. Furthermore, he was warned to expect LoA involvement. Finally, I'm sure he can spot League ninja out of a crowded room at a cosplay convention, because he'd know everything about them from Batman's database, which we know he studies religiously.

Your other questions have answers, but not good ones, and can be chalked up to really hammy writing.

[Blight]

Tim's an accomplished detective in his own right. It makes sense that he'd pick up on subtle things that gave them away. Furthermore, he was warned to expect LoA involvement. Finally, I'm sure he can spot League ninja out of a crowded room at a cosplay convention, because he'd know everything about them from Batman's database, which we know he studies religiously.


I just don't remember the League ever using ninjas before. Instead wasn't the cast of assasins more easier to pick out. Oh there's Shiva, Oynx, Bronze Tiger, and what's their face etc. There was usually names attached to the LoA not just ninjas.

[lucifernomi]

Yeah I felt that too.. you think the writer for Robin would have at least kept all the info on the sister thing for the finale when Tim finally asks Cassie. But nope she just went on a Bond villain level rant. All that was missing was the cat and refering to Tim as Mr. Robin. :p

Bond-villian, yes! That's exactly what I felt about it.

As for my thoughts on Cassie... eh. I was never attatched to her character. In fact, Aside from the residual love I have of her after beating Ravager while Deathstroke watched, I really wanted to see her do something else with her life. Super-villiany is a great career with incredible perks and oppportunities for upward mobility. I think it's beyond sweet that she's the head of the League, I just wish it wasn't done for such a lame reason, so poorly written, and hastily explained in the last few pages of a book that was mostly acrobatic-filler anyway.

Still it has a ton of potential for future stories, including the almost too-obvious Jason Todd recruitment, and it makes the League important again. It could work out...

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I was on board for the first couple issues, but they sure did waste a perfectly good character with this month's Robin.

But they can't use the Evil Twin cop-out to fix (part of) this?

I would. Let's say that the Cassandra we see in Robin 150 is actually Annalea.

How? Cassandra comes across her long-lost sister, and of course Annalea becomes insanely jealous of her sibling's success as Batgirl. Taken by surprise, Cassandra is disposed of by Annalea (mind wipe? locked in a dungeon? defending some third-world country?) who then decides to take over her sister's identity and benefit from the connections made by Batgirl. She takes advantage of her new role, and now comes to enlist Robin, not knowing that he would automatically be against anything connected to the League of Assassins.

That's the best way I can come up with for explaining Batgirl's mischaracterization. It also now leaves Cassandra waiting for a writer who gives a damn.

[Nate Grey]

I was on board for the first couple issues, but they sure did waste a perfectly good character with this month's Robin.



I would. Let's say that the Cassandra we see in Robin 150 is actually Annalea.

How? Cassandra comes across her long-lost sister, and of course Annalea becomes insanely jealous of her sibling's success as Batgirl. Taken by surprise, Cassandra is disposed of by Annalea (mind wipe? locked in a dungeon? defending some third-world country?) who then decides to take over her sister's identity and benefit from the connections made by Batgirl. She takes advantage of her new role, and now comes to enlist Robin, not knowing that he would automatically be against anything connected to the League of Assassins.

That's the best way I can come up with for explaining Batgirl's mischaracterization. It also now leaves Cassandra waiting for a writer who gives a damn.

I like it. Gives DC an out. If they decide to create a Batwoman series, this leaves Cass free and clear to be Batgirl.

Which, of course, means it won't happen.

[Damo]

Actually, the League hasn't been really ninja-friendly in the past. It's been made up of the best assassins in the world, people from a whole slimshaw of different backgrounds and styles. There wouldn't be anything to give the League away from any other bunch of top notch fighters from a bunch of different styles. And sure he can tell them from cosplayers. Does the League have the market cornered on "real" ninjas in the DCU? HA! No.

You might have something on the sucker-punching Cain. Repeat, might. I don't see a guy that trained and held his own against Batman being blindsided and knocked out by Tim, no matter how surprised he is. Even still, if it was meant to be that he only won by using surprise, it should have been said in the story. As it stands it looks like Tim's just that good. Which is schwarbage. Tim's great because he can find other ways to win against people like that, not because he's waaaaaa-niiiinja.

[Damo]

I'm amazed that in none of these threads nobody is suggesting what I think is the most obvious "way out". Brainwashing.

The League's most famous story was where they killed the pre-crisis Batwoman. They managed to get around Batman by pitting him against Bronze Tiger, a brainwashed hero and a Shiva-class martial artist. Their most famous story has them brainwashing a Shiva-class heroic martial artist, and nobody is suggesting they tried it again? Huh.

[Jmacq1]

I thought about it, since it would hearken back to the era which Didio and Co. seem so determined to recreate.

But I discarded it, because it'd make too much sense and DC has already used up all the credit they had with me. Every single time I've hoped beyond hope that things wouldn't turn out crappy or sucky....they have. I haven't seen anything yet to dissuade me of the notion.

[Guts/Batman]

I felt a mild to hard slap to the face as I read this issue at the comic store...

[AlistairCrane]

You know.....

Barbara Gordon: crippled. ("Let's cripple the bitch," said Len Wein. Yes, that's a true quote.)

Sarah Essen: dead.

Vesper Fairchild: beaten and raped to death.

Spoiler: tortured and dead.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins: written as a murderer and now useless.

Cassandra Cain: turned evil with little to no motivation.

Renee Montoya: off the force and a drunk. (Though with a small chance for redemption in 52, if she's not killed.)

Are there any women of strong character left in the Bat-universe? Of course, the male characters haven't turned out that well (see Nightwing), but Bats himself is back, Gordon is back, Tim Drake is doing okay and Alfred is back.

I'm not saying it's deliberate but the overall effect I'm getting as a reader is that having breasts is a really bad thing in the Bat-universe.


Catwoman is the strongest female character in the Batverse.

[Damo]

Which Catwoman? The one that was retconned into being a prostitute, then retconned into a woman that just pretended to be a prostitute, then later had her mind controlled?

Or the one that was a prostitute?

[fuaak]

I'm amazed that in none of these threads nobody is suggesting what I think is the most obvious "way out". Brainwashing.
They would have to brainwash David Cain too, because he acknowledged this Annalea, WHO CAN'T EXIST, PERIOD.

I repeat: Batgirl's origin story as we saw it in the last Batgirl arc can't happen as written if there's "another" Cass. David Cain has no reason to sit in his cell or obsess about his "one success". Ra's Al Ghul would have employed this "Annalea" as his bodyguard, like he planned to do with Cass.

[Indefatigable]

Wow. Just. Wow. Disgusting.

[Damo]

They would have to brainwash David Cain too, because he acknowledged this Annalea, WHO CAN'T EXIST, PERIOD.

Well, first off, I'm not 100% sure she can't exist. She could just be a failed early experiment, like the bunch of kids that gave us Mad Dog. So utterly lacking in skill that he didn't really give her a second thought until now. I didn't read the story as her being another Cass, I read it as there was another kid out there Cain tried to turn into the ultimate assassin. Considering the fact that she could talk and stank at fighting, I'm guessing he used very different methods than he did with Cass, got lackluster results, and chucked her to the curb. Honestly, with Cain, I could see him raising several kids at the same time, each with different techniques, throwing away the ones that weren't working out until only Cass was left for him to obsess over.

That said, if there's something being said that Cain would absolutely see as wrong, he could just be playing along with whoever arranged all this.

Like I said, it's not great, but it's better than what we're being shown.

[Corrina]

Catwoman is the strongest female character in the Batverse.

She was when Brubaker and several other writers wrote her.

This motherhood thing...uh....that's not Selina as currently in the DCU. It's a definite softening and declawing of the character, in my opinion. (Please, no yelling about her Earth-2 counterpart. That was so many years ago, it's not relevent. And no yelling that mothers can be bad-ass--I know that too, I am one. I'm talking about this particular story and the character as written for the vast majority of her current title.)

[Damo]

Hey, mommas can be bad ass scary. Some of the scariest characters I've ever read about in comics are mothers. Julia Diggers from Gold Digger? Manhunter? Erm... Scarlet Witch? Wait, no, she was just nuts at the time, and not scary either.

Hm... actually, while there are some very scary mothers out there in comics, there's not many.

I'd love to see Selina be all Lone Wolf (Lion?) and Cub, but I don't think it's going to happen. Poor declawed Selina.

[Ferrik]

How? Cassandra comes across her long-lost sister, and of course Annalea becomes insanely jealous of her sibling's success as Batgirl. Taken by surprise, Cassandra is disposed of by Annalea (mind wipe? locked in a dungeon? defending some third-world country?) who then decides to take over her sister's identity and benefit from the connections made by Batgirl. She takes advantage of her new role, and now comes to enlist Robin, not knowing that he would automatically be against anything connected to the League of Assassins.

That's the best way I can come up with for explaining Batgirl's mischaracterization. It also now leaves Cassandra waiting for a writer who gives a damn.

I'd like that idea better if they weren't already doing the identity stealing thing in Nightwing. It still beats what they're doing now. I have almost the entire Batgirl run and was sad when they killed it. But this is like crapping on your mother's grave! And since when has Cass been so articulate?

[Lord Darkwolf]

I felt a mild to hard slap to the face as I read this issue at the comic store...




Just a slap to the face ? For me it was an all out kick to the nuts !

[Teitr Styrr]

Yeah, I'm not at all happy right now, but....

This is comics. Almost nothing, I repeat NOTHING, is as it seems in the middle of an arc. I guess I will reserve judgement until the arc ends.

[Papervolcano]

The only reason I'm not writing nasty letters to DC now is that I truly don't believe that's Cass. Nothing about her is in character, and the next issue needs to start with the actual Cass swinging in and dealing with the evil clone (Timmy, you need to be more careful with your experiments! You can't keep cloning crazy versions of your Bat!siblings and letting them run loose!).

I can deal with her leading the League (and actually, that could be interesting. In the hands of a nuanced writer, the ideas behind her progression from Bat to that, how she deals with killing when she experiences the death viscerally, the thought processes behind who she sends her assassins out to kill). But I cannot, and will not accept Cass as a bad Bond Villain.

Okay, I get it - no boobs in the batcave. It is a manly place, full of manly men and girls most certainly are not allowed. But seriously, do you have to assassinate the characters?

[DoctorDoom]

Hey, mommas can be bad ass scary. Some of the scariest characters I've ever read about in comics are mothers. Julia Diggers from Gold Digger? Manhunter? Erm... Scarlet Witch? Wait, no, she was just nuts at the time, and not scary either.

Hm... actually, while there are some very scary mothers out there in comics, there's not many.

I'd love to see Selina be all Lone Wolf (Lion?) and Cub, but I don't think it's going to happen. Poor declawed Selina.
speaking f which have you seen the future Caatwoman cover a few ishes down the line? Its a riff on Lone Wolf and Cub. Good call

[heretic]

The only way to resolve this would be for a conclusion that Cass is suffering from Lazarus Pit induced madness, that she's imagined half the murders she says she's committed, that Nyassa is still alive, sitting back and watching, and that Tim eventually cures her of the madness.

You could reset with Cassandra again having guilt at having a dark side and more determined to be a hero than ever.
I am readng this.

My Impression? Someone Else is in the driver's seat of that chassis and either cracking up due to access to Cassandra's memories or intentionally leading Robin down a Very Bad Path.

Noone who has even read the series featuring the lass in question could write this and think it makes sense. Not with a clean concience save out of fear over some serious consequences hanging over his/her head in any case.

HTG

[fuaak]

I'm not even sure anymore what the hell this Annalea is supposed to be. If she's one of the failed Cassandra prototypes, she should be insane and most certainly shouldn't be able to speak, and Cass shouldn't care about her because there were dozens like her. If she's supposed to be a successful Cassandra prototype, things get real ugly - because she shouldn't be able to speak, she should be a hell of a lot better fighter, she should be serving Ra's Al Ghul (or Nyssa, I guess) as his personal bodyguard, and David Cain shouldn't have obsessed about Cass all his life because, hey, he's got another. So what is it?

[Damo]

Why wouldn't a failed prototype be able to speak? Mad Dog spoke, albiet like Gollum, and he was basically left to raise himself in the wild. I don't see why a prototype that wasn't ditched in the woods wouldn't be able to speak. If Cain had tried different methods out on some kid (not the whole "never let her hear speaking" thing he did with Cass), saw that those methods (whatever they were) weren't working, and ditched her to raise herself in some city there's no reason she wouldn't be able to speak.

*Shrugs.* Of the many many many many things wrong with this story, the revelation that Cain might have tried training another kid doesn't bug me whatsoever. Hell, the thought that Cain's left a trail of failed experiments before Cass makes perfect sense to me. Cass going all spoiled J.A.P. about it, on the other hand...

[Jmacq1]

My personal impression is that Annalea was an "accident"/unplanned pregnancy and got some cursory training from her father before he realized she'd never live up to his standards an kicked her to the curb. Maybe she was born before Cain caught onto his idea for the "perfect weapon". She looked like she was probably a few years older than Cassandra.

I know they never stated it, but I always had the impression that it was probably -Bruce- that kind of planted the "seed" of the idea within Cain. Or more like he had the method (learning combat before language) but didn't know it'd work until he saw the raw potential Bruce had.

Regardless, her existence being justification for Cassandra's apparent insanity is still lame.

[fuaak]

Maybe she was born before Cain caught onto his idea for the "perfect weapon". She looked like she was probably a few years older than Cassandra.
Logically, to have time for dozens of failed experiments, Cain should have gotten the idea decades before Cassandra was born. Or did you mean the language thing specifically?

[matrix]

Why wouldn't a failed prototype be able to speak? Mad Dog spoke, albiet like Gollum, and he was basically left to raise himself in the wild. I don't see why a prototype that wasn't ditched in the woods wouldn't be able to speak. If Cain had tried different methods out on some kid (not the whole "never let her hear speaking" thing he did with Cass), saw that those methods (whatever they were) weren't working, and ditched her to raise herself in some city there's no reason she wouldn't be able to speak.

*Shrugs.* Of the many many many many things wrong with this story, the revelation that Cain might have tried training another kid doesn't bug me whatsoever. Hell, the thought that Cain's left a trail of failed experiments before Cass makes perfect sense to me. Cass going all spoiled J.A.P. about it, on the other hand...
this story is screaming sterotypical "i can't think of anything to do with this character so i'm going to make her into an emo child. :rolleyes:

[fuaak]

The way I see it, the only explanation for "Annalea" being written at all is simply that neither Beechen nor his editor KNEW about the little fact that David Cain's dozens of failed experiments were already firmly established and known by Cass: that he really believed that "what if (GASP!) David trained ANOTHER kid?!!?!?!" was a new idea, and one that might drive Cass over the edge.

I keep saying this, but this arc is clearly written by somebody who doesn't know even the most basic things about Cassandra. I'd be surprised if Beechen had read a Batgirl issue in his life.

[Damo]

The way I see it, the only explanation for "Annalea" being written at all is simply that neither Beechen nor his editor KNEW about the little fact that David Cain's dozens of failed experiments were already firmly established and known by Cass: that he really believed that "what if (GASP!) David trained ANOTHER kid?!!?!?!" was a new idea, and one that might drive Cass over the edge.

Agreed. Or, here's an even more disgusting idea: They pulled a Max Lord.

Convention. Dan DiDio: After going through several possible characters who could be the "new leader for the offshoot of Checkmate", Maxwell Lord was suggested. Idea liked by people at meeting. Idea dropped due to continuity errors (him being a cyborg). Went back to idea: "We thought about that aspect of the story [where Maxwell was turned into a cyborg] some more," DiDio explained. "And then asked, 'Did anyone read it?' No. 'Did anyone like the idea?' No. So we moved ahead with Max as being a human, and having been a human, and not letting that small part of the past stand in the way of this story."

So it's entirely possible that Beechen (and the forces behind him) came up with the idea of Cass being driven nuts by Cain having trained someone else, went "oh wait, she already knows that" then a minute later went "eh, who cares, we can blame it on Superboy Prime and say that story didn't happen the way we published it".

And dollars to donuts says that they're going to use the Retcon Punch to tweak her skill levels down to the point that Robin can beat her.

[Blight]

Please DC is more up to date now.. it's because of the new Earth. :rolleyes:

[AllisterH]

Can anyone explain how Robin BEAT David Cain?

[d newton]

Let's see... so:

* Cassandra is now a villain. Not an "anti-hero", but a villain of the cackling, top-hat-wearing, moustache-twirling variety.

* The motivation for this is as follows:
- Yet ANOTHER survivor of Cain's training, and this time one that was also Cain's biological child, was RETCONNED in.
- Cassandra takes such offense at the idea of Daddy Dearest loving somebody else that she kills this second child, kills Nyssa, takes over the LoA and starts a harebrained scheme to get Tim to join, and kill David for her while he joins (I'm not making this up. Oh, and all of this is treated as if it happened just last week or so).

* Plot hole: Apparently nobody at the previous LoA knew about this second kid, with the way they worshipped Cassandra as the legendary "One Who Is All". This includes Ra's Al Ghul (who, as you remember, ordered the whole thing) who didn't employ this other kid as his god-bodyguard, in the role he had planned for Cassandra. That's just as well, it seems, because Cassandra defeats Kid 2 in about five seconds - something that probably shouldn't happen to somebody who finished David Cain's training.

* Plot hole: Also, apparently David Cain didn't know about her either, given how he was obsessed with Cass to the point of monomania for the majority of his existance. David Cain's only motivation for doing anything, EVER, has been to win back his daughter. Why the hell would that be so if he had a convenient spare?

* Plot hole: Simply put, Cassandra's motive or plan doesn't make sense on any level, nor does her expectation that Tim would change sides after she goes through a few of Nyssa's talking points.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra has officially pulled a 180 turn on her character-defining "everybody can change" philosophy to the point of saying that nobody can change - with no logical or plausible motivation whatsoever.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra states that she hated David Cain's training and pushed on through only because she thought David loved her and only her. This is contrary to her series, which made it plenty clear that all of her torturous training was just an innocent game to her, and that she was perfectly happy until she learned what death really means.

* Mischaracterization: Cassandra rambles insanely about how she and Tim "will be together". This serves to make her sound like a lovesick idiot, and makes one wonder where this behavior comes from, since she never showed she even particularly liked Tim.

* Plot hole: why the hell would Cassandra need or want Robin in her little outfit? She's got a million Mortal Kombat extras at her disposal. The only explanation I see is shoehorned-in romantic interest (see above).

* Plot hole: David Cain, the man who trained and fought evenly with Batman and defeated Deadshot with trivial ease, is easily subdued by Robin. What, is Tim supposed to have jumped from the least formidable street leveler in the DCU to Batman's physical equal now?

I'm not going to even touch little things like the Navajo. This whole arc makes sense only if we assume that 1) Cassandra is completely insane AND 2) this is an alternate reality where NONE of Batgirl's series ever happened, and basic plot points about her past are completely different.
I've seen this speech on other threads on this forum as well as Newsrama, Millerworld and various other boards.

[malephoenix]

Logically, to have time for dozens of failed experiments, Cain should have gotten the idea decades before Cassandra was born. Or did you mean the language thing specifically?

The first word of your post has no place in a discussion about the decisions made by comic book bigwigs. We will now return to our regularly scheduled reteconning and abusing of characters and established history. ...Please stop screaming.

[fuaak]

I've seen this speech on other threads on this forum as well as Newsrama, Millerworld and various other boards.
Could be because I copy-pasted it on every board I'm on.

I doubt the highlighted part though. I only posted it once on each.

[Sharpandpointies]

Could be because I copy-pasted it on every board I'm on.

I doubt the highlighted part though. I only posted it once on each.

I think he might mean the fact that it's on YABS as well. :)

Yeah, I saw it on DC comics forum. And you know what? It's good that you cut and pasted it around. It's a good, concise layout of what the heck happened, and what's wrong with it from the perspective of Cassandra Cain history.

Cassandra In Name Only, as someone put it. We're going to have to start calling her CINO.

[d newton]

Could be because I copy-pasted it on every board I'm on.
I doubt the highlighted part though. I only posted it once on each.
Most people like the change!

[fuaak]

Most people like the change!
What on earth do you base this claim on? I've seen twenty posts against it for every one in favor. Not counting my own.

[Damo]

Most people like the change!


*Glances at the poll on this forum. Takes a gander at the number of negative vs positive posts on various boards.* Ah. This must be some new fangled use of the word "most" that allows you to apply it to the minority. I see.

[Violently Apathetic]

I'm thinking this is one of those situations where 'most' translates to 'me and some guys I know...' Frankly I never really cared for Batgirl, but this is just silly.

[fuaak]

They don't even get a good villain out of this trade, because that evil twin clone in Robin is just another stock martial arts themed mad(wo)man with stock ramblings and a less-than-unique "join the dark side" pitch. She doesn't have Cassandra's ideas, goals, motives, means, anything. If we were not supposed to buy that she's Cassandra, would anybody care about this villain at all? I thought not.

They throw a character who pulled a solo series for seven years away just so they get another King Snake.

[Jmacq1]

Most people like the change!

Either another example of "Well...me and the other three guys I talk to at my comic shop like it!" being "most people", or more likely:

People generally have liked the portrayal of -Tim Drake- in the OYL storylines so far. Which isn't a bad thing, but liking the way Tim Drake is being portrayed and agreeing with the butchery of Cassandra Cain's character -can- be two very different things.

[Apathy Boy]

Well, this was disappointing. This story started off so promisingly, but the latest issue hit just about every wrong note.

Understand: much as I like Cassandra, I have no problem with turning her into a villain. The undefeatable foe/"but you were one of us!" makes for a great combination. But for the villain to be compelling, the change has to make some semblance of sense.

The character in this latest issue doesn't talk like Cassandra. She doesn't really look like Cassandra. Her motivations are way off. (Sibling rivalry? The hots for Robin? What?)

I understand what Beechen is doing in setting up the "children of screwed-up fathers on opposite sides of the law" dynamic between Robin and Cassandra. But this is the wrong way to go about it. And it was done much better with Jack Knight and the Mist.

[Corrina]

Jack Knight and the Mist. Damn, that was some excellent stuff.

:sighs dramatically at being reminded how good the Starman comic was:

[Blight]

I think he might mean the fact that it's on YABS as well. :)

Yeah, I saw it on DC comics forum. And you know what? It's good that you cut and pasted it around. It's a good, concise layout of what the heck happened, and what's wrong with it from the perspective of Cassandra Cain history.

Cassandra In Name Only, as someone put it. We're going to have to start calling her CINO.

YES I should get that copyrighted.. if this continues I'll make my money man! :D

Just like making sure Curtis Manning nick name is O.M.A.C. aka One Man Army Curtis. :p

Thing is though.. some like the change yes that's true. But most of the people I've read on the other boards namely aren't Cassie fans. I know only about five people who like Cassie and followed Batgirl who think this is alright since they think the fact is that there is a reason behind this.

Still, those who've hated this issue have been the Cassie Cain fans. In almost every forum I habit there's at least one thread talking about this issue. There are people who aren't happy about this issue.

Though I made a poll at Newsarama where people are showing they liked this issue. Still, there is plenty of people who've voted to show they hate the issue as well and those who hate the issue besides the Cassie Cain stuff.

[Damo]

Commercial break ends, the audience roars with applause, chanting "BEE-TLE! BEE-TLE! BEE-TLE!" Ted Kord, The Blue Beetle smiles from behind his desk, waiting for them to quiet down.

"Thank you," he grins when they do. "My next guest for tonight is a very special lady. The 3rd Batgirl in continuity, and the 4th one to hold that title, current head of League of Assasins, former heir apparent to Batman, former Justice League Elite member, and quite possibly the person with the most prestigious martial arts training in the entire DC Universe, let's give a warm welcome to Cassandra Cain!

The audience explodes with applause, drowning out the band, as Cassandra walks out from the curtain, wearing a Lady Shiva hand-me-down. She waves shyly and makes her way over to the couch.

Ted: Hello Cassandra.

Cass: Hello Ted.

Ted: Now I remember when you were just a fresh eyed mute, first appearing in comics. That must have been, like, four years ago?

Cass: July 1999, actually.

Ted: July 1999. Wow. Has it really been 7 years?

Cass: Just about, Ted, just about.

Ted: So Cassandra, how are you doing?

Cass: Doing good these days Ted, doing good.

Ted: You know, I'm surprised to hear you say that, with your title getting the axe.

Cass: Well, yeah. Yeah, that did take the wind out of my sails, I admit it. I thought we were doing pretty decent saleswise.

Ted: 25,258 that last issue.

Cass: Yeah, we were in a bit of a slump, but still selling more than Catwoman, Firestorm, Hawkman, Green Arrow... I mean, over the last few years I think we were about equal with Wonder Woman. That's not bad. But, you know, every time this industry closes a door it opens a window.

Ted: Just look at me.

Cass: Exactly! I mean, okay, not Batgirl any more, not the person gunning for Batman's job. But head of the League of Assassins? I'll take Ra's Al Ghul's job, sure.

Ted: You think you've got his job?

Cass: Well I guess I'm really only replacing that stock asian character from the 70s, Sensei. But still, the League of Assassins.

Ted: Not shabby at all. So, we asked you here to go over your latest appearance. Can we start? Okay. Now it's no secret some people are a little bit upser about this, so let's try to shed some light on it. Now, in this opening scene, you're explaining that you had Lynx and Nyssa killed, and took over the League of Assassins, because you found about Annalea gal. Then you kinda gloat about it to your father. And... yeah, here we go, this is the bit where you start raving about how you thought you were the only one he trained. Okay, now, a few months ago... didn't you find out that he had trained a whole bunch of kids?

Cass: Oh, is that what Bronze Tiger was talking to me about? I completely missed that. The whole time he was yammering away, I was just trying to figure out how the heck his continuity even works after that Chuck Dixon miniseries. I mean was he part of the Suicide Squad or what? But yeah, if I had been listening I would have totally gone, like, batcrap nuts.

Ted: Well, mystery solved then. Speaking of yammering though, is it just me or do you seem a lot more talkative these days?

Cass: It's been a busy year Ted. When I wasn't learning how to kill without throwing up all over myself, and how to not to give a damn about innocent bystanders, or human life, I've been taking night classes at the Taskmaster school of villainy. People think all he offers is how to fight, but that's just not so! Dr. Manchu has this great class on being an asian villain, Dr. Evil has this great class on explaining everything to the hero, and I've got to say Dr. Manga Khan's class on how to ramble megalomaniacally has changed my life. They also introduced me to Scientology.

Ted: Getting back to the story. Since when did you care more about being Cain's only daughter than following in Batman's footsteps.

Cass: Actually, there's a good story there. A friend of yours, Maxwell Lord -

Ted: Friend might be a bit strong a word there, Cass...

Cass: Well he brought me to a seminar on having your entire past rewritten. It did wonders for him, and so I figured, you know, why not? So to answer your question, how long have I cared more about Cain. From now on, since always.

Ted: And that rant about Batman? And the bit about nobody being able to redeem themselves?

Cass: Well Adam - that's my retconner, Adam Beechen - Adam thought it would work better if we just ignored my old book altogether. I mean, it got cancelled, right? Gotta start with a clean slate.

Ted: This is pretty clean.

Cass: Yeah, well, I was reluctant at one. But after by brainectomy-

Ted: Brainectomy?

Cass: Oh yeah, to be successful in comics these days you've gotta have one of those. Well, afterwards, things were so much clearer. And I'm sure that I'll be much happier losing to Tim than I ever was back in my own book.

Ted: Well it looks like we're out of time. It's been great to have you here.

Cass: Thanks Ted. Which way to the refrigerator? I've got to be in it by Robin 151.

[Blight]

LMAO Damo!

[wonk]

Excellent post!

[Sharpandpointies]

Beautiful. Had I the keys to the Internet, I'd give them to you.

[Tennoarashi]

Cass: Thanks Ted. Which way to the refrigerator? I've got to be in it by Robin 151.
A little part of me DIED IN LAUGHTER when I read that.

[Damo]

A little part of me DIED IN LAUGHTER when I read that.

I try. ^_^

[fuaak]

Damo, post that on the DC forums and do it NAAOOOW (in a new thread, so it doesn't get lost in the mix).

EDIT: Oh, somebody already did. Never mind.

[Nick Kal]

Haven't you guys realized by now that even if you read thousands of posts on various forums that dislike Judd Winnick on Batman or Cassandra Cain going evil... it's mostly internet fans? If Judd Winnick was as despised as some of you made him out to be then the sales on Batman would have tanked severely...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Haven't you guys realized by now that even if you read thousands of posts on various forums that dislike Judd Winnick on Batman or Cassandra Cain going evil... it's mostly internet fans? If Judd Winnick was as despised as some of you made him out to be then the sales on Batman would have tanked severely...

Do you realize that you've really contributed nothing to the discussion? That your suggestion of just shutting up and saying nothing is no more effective by any measure than us bemoaning Cass' mistreatment? In fact, your suggestion would only make this state of affairs worse.

[Damo]

Haven't you guys realized by now that even if you read thousands of posts on various forums that dislike Judd Winnick on Batman or Cassandra Cain going evil... it's mostly internet fans? If Judd Winnick was as despised as some of you made him out to be then the sales on Batman would have tanked severely...

While I would agree with you that there apparently the "internet feeling" regarding Winnick was not reflected in sales, I don't think that it's fair to lump the Cassandra situation in with it.

I suspect Robin sales will go up, not due to how fans react to the depiction of Cass, but how they react to the depiction of Robin. Personally I feel that Robin's had his head up his bum the last few issues, but even on the net I'm in the minority on that. I think that overall people seemed pleased with how Tim is being written.

So once this tale is over, I don't think you will see a sales dip, even if a lot of offline fans are severely P.O.ed about Cass. But I don't think it's fair to look at those sales and conclude that most people (offline or online) approve and like what's done with her.

If you're going to use sales to try and gauge people's reactions, I think it's fair to look at the sales of Batgirl. Now, it's sold fairly well. Not outstanding, but respectable and consistent. Taking that at face value, there are a lot of people out there that like the characterization and history of Cassandra as presented in that book. If her current characterization had been logically shown to come from the old characterization... well, I couldn't be sure one way or the other, but I wouldn't be surprised if people liked it.

However what we're seeing her isn't built on the base of what came before. The motivation we're seeing for the change is an entirely new invention. Moreover, it's a new invention that:
1.) contradicts the most recent storyline (which saw a slight sales increase).

2.) ignores most of the major themes the book featured from day one
A. Cass may have some love by Cain, but it is outweighed by her disgust for him.
B. Cass idolizes Batman to the point that she's the only one of his students to flat out want to be just like him one day
C. Cass can't stand to see people die and actually had a death wish because she had unknowingly killed someone once
D. Cass' whole life is built around redeeming herself for one crime she didn't even know she was committing at the time.
E. Cass has severe difficulty with language, can speak English only falteringly, and is profoundly dyslexic (to the point Oracle picks up abnormalities on a brain scan) wearing herself out in attempts to learn to read and write.

and 3.) Completely changes the character's personality and motivations in order to make the plot work.

I think it's quite unreasonable of you to assume (even if sales improve for "Robin" improve over the next few months) that the people whose money kept Batgirl's sales pretty darn respectable for the past few years are going to be happy with what this means for Cassandra Cain overall. Moreover, I don't think that if there's a sales spike with this story that it means approval. Unfortunately sales only reflect that people bought the book. They do not tell us whether people:

1. bought the books liking what happened to Cass, or
2. bought the books to see just how badly the story treats her, and whether there's any way to salvage her.

I know the case was the latter for myself and a few other posters. I would be surprised if there were not people offline that bought it for the same reason. Majority? Minority? That I can't tell you, and neither can the sales. The sales for Robin 151 won't tell you if people bought it going "Wow, I love what's happened to Batgirl!" or if they bought it going "Oh please please please please please don't let what I read in Robin 150 be true, I hated that issue!"

This is how I look at it:

People have apparently been voting approval of the character with their dollars for years now, fairly consistently.

The new take on the character does not just require accepting that the character has changed in the last year. It plainly requires ignoring the vast majority of what was presented before now, the stories (and character) that sold pretty darn solidly. This is not opinion. This is stated fact. People can (and have) shown specifically what is being contradicted.

With this as the case, I feel it is entirely reasonable to believe that people saying "most fans of the character like it, or don't mind" and "most people offline disagree with people online about this" are the ones that have to meet the burden of proof for their statements.

[wonk]

Haven't you guys realized by now that even if you read thousands of posts on various forums that dislike Judd Winnick on Batman or Cassandra Cain going evil... it's mostly internet fans? If Judd Winnick was as despised as some of you made him out to be then the sales on Batman would have tanked severely...

... besides whether or not this registers with DC editorial (and it's been acknowledged that they do keep tabs on consumer reaction) net-conscious readers do have the right to vent & complain among each other if nothing else. Why else participate on these forums? The only time I hear editors and professionals complain about the net is when they do something to raise readers ire and the backlash begins. They certainly benefit from the buzz when they produce something readers like.

[wonk]

Do you realize that you've really contributed nothing to the discussion? That your suggestion of just shutting up and saying nothing is no more effective by any measure than us bemoaning Cass' mistreatment? In fact, your suggestion would only make this state of affairs worse.
I have to agree ... it sounds far too much like comments made by officials in the current administration, who are dismayed when increasing numbers of people are unwilling to buy the picture they want to paint of the econmic stuation or the war abroad, and all too easily forget that Americans will continue to pay the price for their misdeeds long after they are out of office.

[Damo]

Hey, mommas can be bad ass scary. Some of the scariest characters I've ever read about in comics are mothers. Julia Diggers from Gold Digger? Manhunter? Erm... Scarlet Witch? Wait, no, she was just nuts at the time, and not scary either.

Hm... actually, while there are some very scary mothers out there in comics, there's not many.

*Snaps fingers.* I knew I had to be leaving at least one out!

Pantha! I always thought it was a great way for her to leave the Titans. This rude, distant, snarky gal somehow finds herself drafted into a frankly bizare family unit, "momma" to the toddler Baby Wildebeast, with her Russian beau Red Star in tow. I always thought they made a great trio, and I hope some day DC has the wisdom to see what fun could be had telling stories about that unconventional little famil...

hm?

Oh.

Nevermind.

Goddamn babykilling emo...

[Forsaken_One]

Do you realize that you've really contributed nothing to the discussion? That your suggestion of just shutting up and saying nothing is no more effective by any measure than us bemoaning Cass' mistreatment? In fact, your suggestion would only make this state of affairs worse.
Yeah, he should just wait for it to die off like it did with Spoiler. And Leslie. And every other time comic fans bitched and bitched as they kept on buying comics. :p

[Nick Kal]

Do you realize that you've really contributed nothing to the discussion? That your suggestion of just shutting up and saying nothing is no more effective by any measure than us bemoaning Cass' mistreatment? In fact, your suggestion would only make this state of affairs worse.

No... my suggestion was to come to a realization that the opinions voiced on the internet are not the majority opinion as several people seemed to think.... I do think that 9 pages of whining about Batgirl is dumb, though.

[Blight]

No... my suggestion was to come to a realization that the opinions voiced on the internet are not the majority opinion as several people seemed to think.... I do think that 9 pages of whining about Batgirl is dumb, though.


And my realization is this place has an ignore button. :D

Its not whining dude, its utter shock and dismay over the fact a favorite character was utterly trashed. Sure it may have one issue left but, with what been going on miracle revelation withstanding.. this arc started good but began to take a turn for the worse when the characterzation went south.

Wouldn't you state your case online and complain about the fact your character you enjoy reading was treated poorly?

[Nick Kal]

And my realization is this place has an ignore button. :D

Its not whining dude, its utter shock and dismay over the fact a favorite character was utterly trashed. Sure it may have one issue left but, with what been going on miracle revelation withstanding.. this arc started good but began to take a turn for the worse when the characterzation went south.

Wouldn't you state your case online and complain about the fact your character you enjoy reading was treated poorly?

No one explained how the characterization went south... at least not in a way that was clear to me. Also, as you've said. the story isn't done... but it seems eveyone on here rushes to conclusions about where a story is going, as well...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Between issue 25 and the last writer, too many BG writers IMO were willing to just tread water with the character. Befeore the rug was pulled out from under him, the last writer actually seemed to be going somewhere with Cass.

And how exactly is the change in Robin 150 any better?