Will Superman ever learn to Speed Blitz?

[Captain Smith]

So Supes gets back his powers and speeds off to save Jimmy from a bullet. That's great.

Now, why doesn't the man learn to do the same thing to his opponents. None of the crew attacking him has significant speed IIRC. But he still stands there and takes it from them.

With speed back, a good Mach 3 bop on the noggin should take care of any normal speed villian.

Instead, we will still see the good ol' tactic of standing there with hands on hips and chest stuck out. Then the Silver Gumbo or whatever, unleashes his or her Cajun Cosmic Combat ray on him.

Sigh.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It is ridiculous, isn´t it?


Personally, one of the best Superman stories I ever read was written by Kurt Busiek in Astro City starring................ the Samaritan.

A reallistic Superman would hardly ever be seen, moving around the world like an invisible guardian, saving people before they even realise what happened.
Check out Samaritan´s daily life is from his inner monologue (he´s the narrator):


"The afternoon goes by."

"A jailbreak at Bird Island(less than a second to fly there)--"

"Helping the Maritime Museum raise the Sea Blase", sunk in 1665 off the Florida coas (three seconds)--"

Chack out what happens when he saves a stray cat in a tree and then returns to its owner in Cicero Street:

"I slow down (two seconds) to let the girl see me clearly and reassure her that it´s alright--

"-- and it almost costs a man in Boston his life."

Heck, even the JLA should be small potatoes for him, here´s what happens when alarm bells goes off at the Honor Guard (JLA) headquarters:

"And of course no Honor Huard meeting would be complete without an emergency."

SFX: GLANGLANGLAN

Cleopatra: -Ha! Enough of circuits and wiring-- we have a call to arms!"

This time it´s Astrobank´s City Center Branch (a luxurious 10 seconds, waiting for the others)-


The bank is being attacked by a supergang and to avoid alienating the other team members, he has to WAIT for them so they can all go together and do the "- JLA assemble!" pose for the comic.
That´s how it really goes down.
In real life, Superman must yawn, waiting for Batman, Aquaman, Green Arrow and all those snails to get to the battlefield:

"- Thirty seconds waiting for Bats to heat up the Batplane´s engines..... in that time I could have taken out the Injustice Gang, flown to Europe, help rebuilt Crimson Dynamo´s armor and be back with fresh croissants bought in Paris".

[Jmacq1]

He -has- learned how to speedblitz. Mongul II clearly taught him how to do it prior to his initial battle with the Imperiex drone.

He also disabled the Elite using almost nothing but speedtricks.

But it seems that Superman's speed, much like the Flash, is only utilized to it's full extent when it's "cool" for him to do so....

Which is exactly as it freaking should be. If he speedblitzed everyone he fought, there wouldn't be any Superman comics longer than two pages!

[JuggernautRM]

Another example of speed blitz would be in the Flash in Kingdom Come, just seeing a red streak aross the city and no one knowing what saved them.

[Fenix]

His powers fliped so much that not using his Speed is way "confusing" to his enemies. Besides that, you have to count the power of the "S", the icon. If he is just a blur, then, who is this guy?... Instead, he stands in front of all the bullets with his chest pumped out showing the big S. This guy can take you out in a sec, but he´s standing there, as a obvious demostration of power, not only for the poor soul he is fighting at that time, but for all the crocks watching. "Think about it once, twice and hundreds of times you little scum before attempting anything against my city...I`m here and that´s all you need to know" that is the kind of message he gives by just... standing.

Well that, and the fact that if he do all his stuff in a matter of sec, it would be boring as hell.;)

[Pike]

The Sentry mini-series had him using his speed to finish off all kinds of threats.

Superman should use his speed more but he doesn't. There are ways they could write around this but more often than not the writer just ignores it.

[Joker2503]

"Red Son" has Supes pretty much flying all over Russia constantly to save anyone and everyone.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"Red Son" has Supes pretty much flying all over Russia constantly to save anyone and everyone.


As he should be.

Think about it:

If you were a gangster, would you be more affraid of

a) the guy who stands there to show you how badass he is, taking the bullets in the chest in the hope that one of them isn´t kryptonite-laced
b) that "thing" that comes out of nowhere, is never seen and can foil your every plan without you knowing what happened?
I know what you´re gonna say next, "Oooh, Superman doesnt operate like that, Batman does. Where Bats is shadows and deceipt, Superman is light and should always be seen and in the open."
No.
You can see Superman if he performs something that requires time, like helping a damaged plane land (he does it at superspeed and half the passengers will be dead from extreme g-force des/aceleration.
You can see Superman when he goes to a fund raising.
Other than that, blur.
The ten seconds he wastes posing for Toyman to aim his new red light canon could be used to stop a tsunami in Indonesia.

Superman could be WAY cooler than Batman if he were written inteligently.
I don´t subscribe the argument that his comics woudl last 2 pages if he were to operate at the full extent of his capabilities, a man so fast he can be in Tokyo playing a chess game with an old friend or sightseeing castles in the Loire with Martha Kent would open far more interesting stories than what we´re given right now.

[Sean Whitmore]

Superman is not Samaritan, and shouldn't be written like him. He doesn't speed invisibly around the world because he wants to inspire people, he gets to know the victims he saves, and his shield acts as a symbol for something bigger than himself.

So if it takes Superman ten minutes to beat Metallo when it should take a quarter of a second, or if there's a crime being committed in Chicago while Superman is chatting it up with a Metropolis cop, it just has to be chalked up to the same suspension of disbelief that lets you believe his Clark Kent glasses fool anybody.


SEAN

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Samaritan is as great a symbol in his universe as Superman is in his - AND he doesn´t need to parade some symbol all over town for people to feel inspired, his presence is felt all around the everyday citizens, like an invisible guardian angel.

He hates posing for pictures because he´s too humble for that (something Superman should be able to sympathise, if he´s really a modest kansas farm boy at heart).
In fact, Samaritan used to refuse going to diners the town threw in his honor until he realised he had no choice but to attend because his absence hurt people who only wanted to thank him.

I´d wager that Samaritan is what Superman should be if written right.

[Mainline]

Bull. Samaritan resents his job. He's the guy who wishes he could fly. Superman is the man who flies. Superman is Samaritan matured, striking the delicate but important balance between personal mental health and duty.

As for the argument of efficacy, it's bogus. It's the same argument that says Batman should kill, learn magic, build an Ironman suit, quit the fight and fund a SCU (ala Metropolis), allow metahuman heroes into Gotham's city-limits as regulars to help clean it up, etc.

If Superman wants to increase is efficacy, why do it with his fists or speed-blitz? Sure, he could wear a hazard suit and anti-magic talismans. Learn Kung-Fu and channel mystic energies through his Kryptonian physique. Or scour the world constantly, senses wide open, never retreating to the Fortress of Solitude or the arms of his wife, nothing but a super-sonic boom creating blur. Forget all that. Research Kryptonian tech, cure cancer, end poverty, war, and hunger, send out the Superman robots to right the wrongs in the world, bring about world peace from behind a desk instead of with his fists.

All of that is the wrong view of the DCU and requires a perspective adjustment.

[lonewolf23k]

Thing is, while I think the Speed-Blitz should be a part of Superman's arsenal, it shouldn't be the only part of his arsenal. For common crooks, just him standing there with his chest pushed out as the bullets bounce off is enough. For supervillains, it really depends on who he's fighting.

I think the Series finale of JLU demonstrated Superman's dilemma quite nicely: He's always holding back, out of the fear of killing someone. The reason he doesn't always punch at full strength is because he doesn't want to kill anyone by accident. Same with his Heat Vision.

I think Superman's speed is the same thing: He doesn't use it all the time because by always rushing things, he might get careless and make mistakes.

[Mainline]

It is ridiculous, isn´t it?

Personally, one of the best Superman stories I ever read was written by Kurt Busiek in Astro City starring................ the Samaritan.It's hardly ridiculous considering the cost. You left out some critical quotes in your citation:

I feel heavy and old.
There's no time.
There's never any time.
...my heart sinks... reminding me, mocking me, with what I'm giving up.
But when could I spare the time? For friends. To relax. For a life?
...It's almost a relief when the alert signal goes off.

That is NOT Superman. Superman is who you want to be. Last time I checked, people did not want to "feel heavy and old", to be rushed, and so consumed by occupation that their talents are seen as a curse which forces them to sacrifice rather than gifts that bless.

Super-speed is a gift, but using it the way Samaritan does comes with a cost that could turn it into a curse.

[jadehorde]

He -has- learned how to speedblitz. Mongul II clearly taught him how to do it prior to his initial battle with the Imperiex drone.

He also disabled the Elite using almost nothing but speedtricks.

But it seems that Superman's speed, much like the Flash, is only utilized to it's full extent when it's "cool" for him to do so....

Which is exactly as it freaking should be. If he speedblitzed everyone he fought, there wouldn't be any Superman comics longer than two pages!


And it's no worse than the misuse of ANY superpower. How many times do planet movers get smacked by a car or something and actually get rattled?

Speed is just more obvious.

I mean that Samaritan thing...isn't realistic at all given the massive amount of damage he'd cause by moving around the world at that speed..especially in inhabited areas like cities.

And lifting a 17th century ship from the ocean bottom...I'm not sure what it's made of, but there is certainly no way someone could do it in 3 seconds...it'd collapse upon itself even if it were newly forged steel...let alone 4 hundred year old wood.

IE its comics man. If you're going to accept heavies lifting a building without it collapsing...lapses in super powers are as much a part of comic history as anything else.

[jadehorde]

The Sentry mini-series had him using his speed to finish off all kinds of threats.

Superman should use his speed more but he doesn't. There are ways they could write around this but more often than not the writer just ignores it.


Have Sentry around for 6 decades.

He's great. But considering how little time he's been around...I'd wait on him being consistent or using his powers effectively.

Anyone, given a chance, can be a bad-ass...try doing it through 3 generations under countless creative teams with different agendas.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Bull. Samaritan resents his job. He's the guy who wishes he could fly. Superman is the man who flies. Superman is Samaritan matured, striking the delicate but important balance between personal mental health and duty.

As for the argument of efficacy, it's bogus. It's the same argument that says Batman should kill, learn magic, build an Ironman suit, quit the fight and fund a SCU (ala Metropolis), allow metahuman heroes into Gotham's city-limits as regulars to help clean it up, etc.

If Superman wants to increase is efficacy, why do it with his fists or speed-blitz? Sure, he could wear a hazard suit and anti-magic talismans. Learn Kung-Fu and channel mystic energies through his Kryptonian physique. Or scour the world constantly, senses wide open, never retreating to the Fortress of Solitude or the arms of his wife, nothing but a super-sonic boom creating blur. Forget all that. Research Kryptonian tech, cure cancer, end poverty, war, and hunger, send out the Superman robots to right the wrongs in the world, bring about world peace from behind a desk instead of with his fists.

All of that is the wrong view of the DCU and requires a perspective adjustment.


Samaritan has a sense of duty.
He knows his powers are important and he uses it to the max to save as many people as he can.
That´s the difference between him and Superman,
Samaritan stands for a set of principles, even if it implies going to bed completelly exausted every day and falling asleep before hitting the sheets.
He doesn´t put his mission aside for fear of arriving late for dinner with Lois.

Your Superman wants to have fun saving people.
Samaritan understand the responsability his position implies.

There is nothing wrong with a hero who dreams of flying freely, without obligations.

If anything, it just shows their level of commitment.

Samaritan could have any woman in the world, fly freely as a bird and indulge in unimaginable pleasured.
Instead, he pushes himself to the limit to save as many peopople as he can day in, day out.

What´s Superman´s level of commitment?
His supersenses allow him to hear people getting beat up, stolen, raped and murdered across the globe.
And yet what does he do?
He indluges in meaningless chats with Jimmy, entertains Perry or flirts with Lois.

Some hero.

[Mainline]

Samaritan has a sense of duty.
He has a millstone around his neck. He feels "old and heavy". He's obsessively compulsively driven to do what he does to the detriment of what he does. That lack of a soul makes him a mechanical good for his life-span at best, meanwhile Superman inspires a culture and life-style to a galactic good spanning DC One Million and beyond.

Samaritan understand the responsability his position implies.Actually, it shows the immaturity of him as a hero and a person. I think Samaritan appeals to the juvenile because he's what the person without a life wishes they could be... having no familiarity with what life means and entails, they just want the power. Superman understands the preciousness of life and demonstrates that in every facet of his life/lives and occupations, whereas Samaritan preaches that hypocritical message- "I have no life that you may have one. Mine is worthless but yours is worth something." Superman knows what's good in life for himself and others and pursues it. Samaritan has only a creed and only experiences life by happy accident- again, something that appeals to the juvenile without a life, "I just do my thing and love will come to me."

The parable of the Samaritan was of a person from a marginalized people, cleaning up the mess of the "saints" couldn't be bothered with. A global janitor. Meanwhile, even Nietzsche's Superman is a message of elevation and DC's take one of universal inspiration and self-improvement. Both in the sentimental and classical definitions of hero, Superman comes out with superior results through his methods, recognizing the power of ideals over patchwork action.

But again, your off-kilter comparison shows a complete misunderstanding of the DCU.

[Agentum]

But to have him use all his powers smart would make him to powerful i guess, and very hard to write intresting stories.
And he could end all wars stop most crimes and so on if he worked really hard.
I don't know what the other heroes would do, probably quit:D

And that thing about hear evering and understand everything happening on the earth is so silly:D
i mean ok he has superhearing, but if i wrote him he should not hear anything over the horizont.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

He has a millstone around his neck. He feels "old and heavy". He's obsessively compulsively driven to do what he does to the detriment of what he does.


As he should be. If you have a device or the supersenses to hear injustices happening all around the world and the ability to do something about it, would you do something about it or would you let it happen?
Samaritan has given up on his life so he could make the difference.
Superman didn´t.
Being a hero requires sacrifice.
What has Superman sacrificed?
One can hear a woman being stoned to death in Afghanistan because she had the audacity to allow herself to be gang-raped and choses to idly entertain a conversation with Lois over what´s for dinner.
The other immediatelly jumps into action, counting the seconds it takes him to fly there.
Who´s the bettter hero?



That lack of a soul makes him a mechanical good for his life-span at best, meanwhile Superman inspires a culture and life-style to a galactic good spanning DC One Million and beyond.


No, see, this shows how little you understand the character. Samaritan doesn´t "lack a soul". Quite the oposite, he´s far more human than Superman can ever hope to be. I´d say he´s like Peter Parker (the ultimate human hero) in this aspect, just a guy trying to fight the good fight because he understands his responsabilities as a superhero. . He sacrifices himself everyday, fighting the good fight. He looks at all those photos of women he could have and can´t, all the pleasures he could immerse himself into but he choses not to.
He carries a hero´s burden.
What weight does Superman carry?


Actually, it shows the immaturity of him as a hero and a person. I think Samaritan appeals to the juvenile because he's what the person without a life wishes they could be... having no familiarity with what life means and entails, they just want the power. Superman understands the preciousness of life and demonstrates that in every facet of his life/lives and occupations,

So, anyone who likes Samaritan is a juvenile now?
Samaritan understands perfectly what Life "means and entails".
He just can´t afford to enjoy its pleasures because he has a sense of mission.
What does your Superman do when his supersenses detect racist mobs beating immigrants in Moscow or villages being pillaged in Darfur?
He dismisses it so he can chat some more with Jimmy about his new date.
Some hero.


whereas Samaritan preaches that hypocritical message- "I have no life that you may have one. Mine is worthless but yours is worth something." Superman knows what's good in life for himself and others and pursues it. Samaritan has only a creed and only experiences life by happy accident- again, something that appeals to the juvenile without a life, "I just do my thing and love will come to me."

Again with the "juvenile"?
Samaritan is a hero, self sacrifying.
He´s as inspiring as firemen or Medics Without Borders, altruistic people who sacrifice themselves for the good of others.
If you think that feeling inspired by such gestures means you´re a "juvenile", then your set of values is seriously askewed.


The parable of the Samaritan was of a person from a marginalized people, cleaning up the mess of the "saints" couldn't be bothered with. A global janitor. Meanwhile, even Nietzsche's Superman is a message of elevation and DC's take one of universal inspiration and self-improvement. Both in the sentimental and classical definitions of hero, Superman comes out with superior results through his methods, recognizing the power of ideals over patchwork action.

No, what DC is preaching is that posing for the cameras is more important than actually doing the deed. Superman´s like the millionaire/politician that donates ten bucks to a shelter and waits for the cameras to show the good deed he just did.
Samaritan si the guy that goes to bed exhausted every day from working hard at building those shelters.


But again, your off-kilter comparison shows a complete misunderstanding of the DCU.


But again, your failure to understand this shows your complete misunderstanding of what being a hero means.

[lead sharp]

What kind of inspiration is having no life to speak of for all your good deeds?

[Jmacq1]

What kind of inspiration is having no life to speak of for all your good deeds?

Whether Samaritan has a life or not is irrelevant to the conversation. The general public (in their respective universes) doesn't know that -Superman- "has a life" outside of heroing. The same goes for Samaritan. Doesn't stop either one of them from being inspiring.

But the Samaritan vs. Superman debate -is- silly, because it's two different universes with two different storytelling conventions. Blaming the character for being written the way he's been written for decades is just silly. People read Superman comics almost as much for Lois, Jimmy, Perry and Co as for Superman himself.

Samaritan gets away with being a "perfect" hero because he -doesn't- have to maintain multiple monthly series, guest appearances, etc... If he even had -one- ongoing monthly series, I can guarantee that he'd soon have his own "civilian" supporting cast and be doing the exact same things Superman is being "accused" of, because believe it or not, that's what most comic fans like to read about. If all he does is fly around and do good deeds, he quickly becomes boring and unrelatable to most folks. Besides, even Samaritan isn't capable of solving all the world's ills. Nor would Superman be if he maintained a "routine" in the same fashion. Why not? BECAUSE THEN THERE'D BE NO STORIES TO TELL.

But by the same token, there's no reason to call him "Juvenile", much less to call someone who's a fan of the character the same. I've considered "Astro City" one of the better comics of the last 10-15 years.

Anyway, isn't this thread about Superman and Speedblitzing?

[MythicBrawn]

The fact that Superman isn't shown using the bulk of his powers has been a major irritation for me. Using his speed alone would end many of his battles before they even started. He has too many powers and barely uses half of them in any given situation. I do like the Samaritan though. He is a better Superman than the actual Superman.

[Agentum]

But i think most people will be very angry if all fights lasted a couple of panels only.
I often think about this things realisticly too and it's of course a waste not to use Supermans powers more, but when i'm thinking about it i don't know what they should write, the guy i showing up in many diffrent books a month and not everyone of them can have threats on the level nececary for a Superman using all his powers.
So the storys will get boring after i while.

[Mainline]

Being a hero requires sacrifice.Actually, it doesn't. There are two definitions, the sentimental and the classical. In the classical definition, a hero needs only be celebrated, and in that respect Superman far exceeds Samaritan in any respect. In the sentimental, again, Superman trumps Samaritan by showing maturity.

In either case, you have persons with powers that demand paternalism. Let's not forget Samaritan has alien tech. Samaritan has a job. Samaritan sleeps. Samaritan eventually goes on dates. EVERY criticism you've leveled at Superman falls on Samaritan's head as well everytime he wallows in self-pity in his office, comes up with lame excuses to argue with his editor, doesn't use his technology to better the world, or indulges in sleep.

The difference, is that Superman has managed to extract meaning from those things and use it to further his message and ideal to everyone that knows him. Both these beings are ones with powers that exceed their reach... paternalism... thus Samaritan is the neurotic parent that does everything for the child even into adulthood, breast feeding, chewing their food for them, tying their shoelaces, wiping their chin, showing no faith in the child, never stopping to impart ideals or love, and slavishly expending himself such that the child would NEVER want the parent's lifestyle, and eventually grows to resent the parent while incapable of being independent of it.

By contrast, Superman is the parent who allows the world its bumps and scrapes because he knows he wasn't always there and will not always be in there in the future, he shows faith in humanity and stops to impart ideals to the world letting it know he sees their potential for strength. When you are saved by Superman you know it and you know it is because he loves you, an ideal which leads to independence and societal good greater than Samaritan's sterile and unseen do-gooding.

Who´s the bettter hero?Undoubtedly, Superman.

No, see, this shows how little you understand the character. Samaritan doesn´t "lack a soul".Samaritan SAYS THIS OF HIMSELF. So seems there's a reading comprehension problem going on with you.

Quite the oposite, he´s far more human than Superman can ever hope to be. I´d say he´s like Peter Parker (the ultimate human hero) in this aspect, just a guy trying to fight the good fight because he understands his responsabilities as a superhero.Wrong. Parker has a wife, life, and knows that balance- maybe not as well as Superman- but May and Ben Parker taught him fairly well in that respect. Samaritan, by contrast, misunderstands the entire point of superheroing.

He carries a hero´s burden.No, he carries an unnecessary self-inflicted burden. A person with that level of self-hatred will never be an inspiration.

Samaritan is a hero, self sacrifying.
He´s as inspiring as firemen or Medics Without Borders, altruistic people who sacrifice themselves for the good of others.Untrue, those who sacrifice, like Superman, do it out of joy which provides them the strength to do it. Ask those people who have given everything and they will answer, "I've sacrificed nothing." Only the immature, think going grudgingly against some great resistance is what makes the act great. Samaritan does it out of a neurotic duty, he LONGS to have that motivating joy and inspirational impact- which is why he stops for the girl & her cat- but has not the maturity to recognize it's value over mechanics.

Again, he's the parent that never lets the child grow, shows no faith, shields it from every harm and shelters it from the slightest bruise, yet fails to say the simplest "I love you." What a warped type of parent!

But again, your failure to understand this shows your complete misunderstanding of what being a hero means.If, to you, a hero is someone that babys you, yet never imparts anything of meaning or value, then clearly our definitions differ.

Superman recognizes keeping the dream of flight alive means more to the world than having their hand held in every crisis. And funny enough, Samaritan, the man who CAN fly, essentially wants to be Superman.

[JulianPerez]

Superman has on many occasions demonstrated tremendous resourcefulness with his powers. It's a part of who Superman IS, that he will do things like rub his hands together over the Daily Planet globe to transform it into a magnet, or use his X-Ray Vision to stimulate plant growth, or use his superspeed and strength to compact all the sand on a beach into glass in order to save it from a tidal wave. Time and again, Superman has been shown to know how to use his powers in clever ways; that's his characterization.

However, something like a crazy-style speed blitz would be out of character for Superman, because Superman believes in using the minimal amount of force possible to accomplish a task or defeat an opponent. There were several Cary Bates issues, for instance, where Superman knocked a foe out by Chinese "pressure point" tricks (a la Doc Savage or the Vulcan Neck Pinch).

Superman just PUNCHING someone is actually a failure of the imagination. Superman speed blitzing, doubly so.

[Mainline]

I find it interesting that the two speed-blitzing Superman-types, Sentry and Samaritan, both use advanced AI's to optimize their time and constant movement while parenting at living-breathing planet. In other words, they've divorced their own reason from their actions and have turned themselves into nothing but cogs in a LITERAL machine... a computer's algorithm. Any and every loss is blamed on the algorithm's optimizations. Imagine parents raising their children this way.

And the expected result comes from this, when faced with a REAL decision, both are agonized over what to do... Sentry, for example, contrasted against Captain America seems positively infantile as a personality despite his incredible power. Similarly with Samaritan with his fellow "league" members or even Hyperion before his awakening (in his case, his actions up til then were by the governmental machine instead of an AI).

Meanwhile, Superman steps back and reasons. His choices are his, the world's are the world's, and they accept mutual responsibility as he helps out. Dealing with real-world decisions every day is part of what makes him capable of making decisions, leading, guiding, mentoring, and being an inspiration. His body of experience relates to human choices and real moral questions, something he can pass on and impart to others- rather than a mathematical optimization or series of tatical manuevers.

[Captain Smith]

I understand the hands on the hips for PR. However, when you are going to get your ass kicked or someone else hurt because you are posing, that's what troubles me.

When Supes fights a normal speed type but who has powers that will hurt him then I don't think the rationalizations for the lack of use of speed make sense.

If Banshee is taking a deep breath to blast me and I know that her powers hurt - then it is time for the Mach 3 punch to the noggin.

About Supes never hurting anyone as he is a boy scout - that's another debate along with why the guy wouldn't nail WW. Just a wussy.

[tymac]

How many issues of a blue and red (old school purple) blur righting every wrong in the world could we take before it got really boring?

[Slortex]

I don't read much Superman, but does he think at hyper speeds? I'm pretty sure he doesn't, which explains why he's not speeding all over the place, rescuing millions of people in seconds. His brain needs time to think and process before he can act.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Actually, it doesn't.


Yes, it does.


There are two definitions, the sentimental and the classical. In the classical definition, a hero needs only be celebrated, and in that respect Superman far exceeds Samaritan in any respect.


Superman needs only to be "celebrated"?
A true hero doesn+´t NEED to be celebrated, s/he does it out of pure altruism, for the sake of his fellow (wo)man.
Superman may need to be celebrated, to stand there with people admiring him.
Samaritan doesn´t. He doesn´t do it for the fame and the glory, he does it for mankind.


In the sentimental, again, Superman trumps Samaritan by showing maturity.


Superman is more mature? Tell me you´re joking.
Samaritan pushes himself to the linit every day, around the weorkld to save as many as he can.
Superman can hear people screaming and dying all around the world and all he does is stand there at the office, chatting weith Jimmy.
Who´s more mature?


In either case, you have persons with powers that demand paternalism.


Why is that?


Let's not forget Samaritan has alien tech.


And Superman has an entire FORTRESS filled with Kryptonian artifacts.


Samaritan has a job.


Which he hardly ever attends.


Samaritan sleeps.

More like falls to his bed in semi-coma from exhaustion.


Samaritan eventually goes on dates.


More like hijacked by his super-peers into a date.


EVERY criticism you've leveled at Superman falls on Samaritan's head as well


NO, it doesn´t.


everytime he wallows in self-pity in his office, comes up with lame excuses to argue with his editor, doesn't use his technology to better the world, or indulges in sleep.


That is so petty!
He´s guilty of sleeping? The man goes out to bed after a hard days work and practically FAINTS from exhaustion in mid-air before even hitting the sheets and you´re blaming him for needng to sleep?


The difference, is that Superman has managed to extract meaning from those things and use it to further his message and ideal to everyone that knows him.


In what way?
What message is he transmiting when he´s shopping with Lois for new carpets while his senses are detecting people dying around the world?


Both these beings are ones with powers that exceed their reach... paternalism... thus Samaritan is the neurotic parent that does everything for the child even into adulthood, breast feeding, chewing their food for them, tying their shoelaces, wiping their chin, showing no faith in the child, never stopping to impart ideals or love, and slavishly expending himself such that the child would NEVER want the parent's lifestyle, and eventually grows to resent the parent while incapable of being independent of it.


So Superman hears someone drowning and he does nothing because saving that person would be "spoiling us"?
Define "irony".


By contrast, Superman is the parent who allows the world its bumps and scrapes because he knows he wasn't always there and will not always be in there in the future, he shows faith in humanity and stops to impart ideals to the world letting it know he sees their potential for strength. When you are saved by Superman you know it and you know it is because he loves you, an ideal which leads to independence and societal good greater than Samaritan's sterile and unseen do-gooding.


No, Superman is the parent who´s too busy endulging Lois to see why the children are screaming and sometimes will drop by just to see what the noise is all about.


Undoubtedly, Superman.


Wrong. Try again.


Samaritan SAYS THIS OF HIMSELF. So seems there's a reading comprehension problem going on with you.

LOL
So, Because he says he lacks a soul it literally means he lacks a soul?
You have comprehension problems.
By your logic, if Spider-Man says that he feels like he´s carrying the world on his shoulders, then it must literally mean that he´s able to carry planet earth on his shoulders.
Samaritan doesn´t lack a soul, he lacks a life.


Wrong. Parker has a wife, life, and knows that balance- maybe not as well as Superman- but May and Ben Parker taught him fairly well in that respect. Samaritan, by contrast, misunderstands the entire point of superheroing.


Wrong.
Parker only lacks Superman´s supersenses to detect trouble happening across the planet and the power to intervene.


No, he carries an unnecessary self-inflicted burden. A person with that level of self-hatred will never be an inspiration.

To you, maybe, since you clearly demonstrate that his altruistic sacrifice means nothing. I guess in your scale of values, bringing Lois coffee is far more important than saving a sinking ferry in the Philipines.


Untrue, those who sacrifice, like Superman,

What does Superman sacrifice?
Really.
Getting late to Bloomingdales and risking Lois going berserk?


do it out of joy which provides them the strength to do it.


A true hero doesn´t do it out of joy. He does it because he need to.
You think Spiderman LIKES fighting Venom? You think it was FUN for him to face Juggernaut all by himself?


Ask those people who have given everything and they will answer, "I've sacrificed nothing."

That is bull. Ghandi may SAY he sacrificed nothing, but you really think he was having FUN going up against british colonials? You think Madre Teresa of Calcuta LIKED to see starving children dying all around her?


Only the immature, think going grudgingly against some great resistance is what makes the act great.

Only the immature belittle those who sacrify themselves for the betterment of others.


Samaritan does it out of a neurotic duty, he LONGS to have that motivating joy and inspirational impact- which is why he stops for the girl & her cat- but has not the maturity to recognize it's value over mechanics.

So you have a problem with Samaritan slowing down from superspeed for 2 seconds to reassure the scared little girl that everything is alright and then blaming himself because those 2 seocnds almost cost a man his life across the globe?
And yet you are A-okay with Superman doing things at normal speed when he could be saving someone around the planet.
Your morals need a SERIOUS reality check.


Again, he's the parent that never lets the child grow, shows no faith, shields it from every harm and shelters it from the slightest bruise, yet fails to say the simplest "I love you." What a warped type of parent!

No, he´s the person who tries to be there for as many people as he can and doesn´t have the luxury of stopping to be glorified because it may cost someone accross the globe their lives.


If, to you, a hero is someone that babys you, yet never imparts anything of meaning or value, then clearly our definitions differ.

It may mean nothing to you because you clearly never needed a superhero to save your life but anyone who was ever rescued from death by someone would hardly say that his/her work was meaningless.



Superman recognizes keeping the dream of flight alive means more to the world than having their hand held in every crisis. And funny enough, Samaritan, the man who CAN fly, essentially wants to be Superman.


Samaritan, the man who can fly freely only wishes he had to luxury to fly freely.
Superman, the man who can fly merely recognises that flying to the other side of the world to rescue someone takes second place behind hearing some more about Jimmy+s new date.

[Agentum]

How many issues of a blue and red (old school purple) blur righting every wrong in the world could we take before it got really boring?
I have tried to wite that but they are not intrested in that thought right now:)
as i wote before i am very intrested in realistic ways of describing superheroes, but there is a limit to that and that is the story, i need a good story and i don't think a even more perfect and powerful Superman could intrest me in the long run and i'm probably not alone.

[phantom1592]

Superman HAS done things like that before. How many times has a gust of wind passed by and disarmed all the robbers. Or A red blur and the bad guy is wrapped in a lightpole or steel girder.

I beleive he doesn't do it often because he hates violence. He would RATHER stand there and take a few bullets and "hope" they surrender. Every time he touches someone is a chance he could hurt them. He wants to inspire humanity, not punish it.

He's also wants to avoid playing god. It's a dangerous line that he's seen others cross.

[Mainline]

Superman needs only to be "celebrated"?The classical defition, yes. Nice job with the reading comprehension there. Stalin is a hero to his people despite lacking admirable qualities to the rest of us. In the sentimental definition of hero, it's about attributes to be emulated, in which case Superman is the total package, whereas no one would want to be Samaritan.

Who´s more mature?Superman, because he makes real-world decision on his own rather than let a program run his life. Because he exudes an ideal which "teaches men to fish" long after he'll be gone rather than "giving fishes" for his limited lifespan. Because Superman knows the difference between doing what you should and doing what you could. Samaritan falls short in all these areas and, quite ironically for your argument, learns these things through his character arc as he becomes increasingly like Superman.


Which he hardly ever attends.Hardly relevant to your argument, otherwise he should have no job at all.

It seems the entire crux of your argument is a good should always be done at the expense of one's self. Truly, though, the people who do the most good in the world are charitable hedonists, those who do good and seek virtue because it is enjoyable to do so. Superman, persuing his purpose in this way provides that same example and motivation to everyone else. Samaritan, by contrast, leaves the world as he entered it, irrelevant.

You repeatedly say "If this was happening here, this should not happen here." That's foolish and immature. By that argument, since you know there's poverty in the world, you should own nothing having sold it all for their benefit. Similarly, Samaritan is condemned because he confines his activities to passive rescue rather than pro-activity... why not stop wars, jail warlords, and share alien tech, etc.? If technology is good enough to run his life, why not others? Samaritan limits his efficacy as well for no rational reason unless you understand paternalism. Clearly you don't.

Of course, there's the fatal flaw in your supposition that anything goes neglected by Clark. His world is saturated with heroes of every scale with, no-doubt, a four-color tint to it. You have only your paranoid delusions and misunderstanding of the DCU to paint pictures of tragedy occuring with in earshot. Show me a tale of a neglected woe and I'll show you one that explains exactly why he does it. Otherwise, you're talking out your ass. Samaritan doing the exact same thing only worse, playing god in determining who is worthy of rescue and who isn't in any given moment.

Both know they can only do so much in the world, however what Samaritan does is provide a bandaid whereas Superman provides a cure. If you take Samaritan's philosophy to its fullest, he exists purely to reduce suffering. That removes suffering's purpose, to remind us that things are not right in this world and we need to make it better. People in Samaritan's world don't know what he's doing so funding for crime fighting drops, people get reckless and stop wearing seat-belts, no investigations into inferior building materials are made, etc. And once Samaritan passes, humanity is worse off than when he first arrived. By contrast, almost everything Superman fights he does in a way that highlights the underlying problem so that humanity improves itself and follows his model. After he's gone, they continue the fight and lifestyle they saw modeled for them.

[SuperManny]

Yes, it does.


That becomes a matter of opinion then, because the definition of hero does not state that he needs to lose something of importance to him in order to be a hero. Firefighters are heroes to many people around the world.

If you want to be that picky, Superman at one point GAVE UP HIS LIFE for the cause.

I haven't read Astro City so I can't comment on Samaritan.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

That becomes a matter of opinion then, because the definition of hero does not state that he needs to lose something of importance to him in order to be a hero. Firefighters are heroes to many people around the world.

If you want to be that picky, Superman at one point GAVE UP HIS LIFE for the cause.

I haven't read Astro City so I can't comment on Samaritan.

We are not dfiscussing Loss in their lives, we are discussing how far each will go to save human lives.

Samaritan is ALWAYS on call, pushing himself to the linit to be everywhere in the world , right until the part where he falls to bed at night in sheer exhaustion.
Superman is a guy that puts on the costume once or twice a day to go stop a bank robbery or a falling plane.

Statistically, if you´re on a ferry ride in the Philipines and it start sinking, can you guess who´s more likely to come save your day?

[AllisterH]

To the people arguing that using "super-speed" means Superman is more violent, why?

Super-speed in fact, would mean less violence. Take for example the recent JLA classified storyline where the entire JLA takes on a guy's army to capture a dictator.

exactly why didn't superman simply speed-blitz, grab the guy and move out. Using the speed-blitz technique, Superman would in fact cause less violence, not more.

[BYC]

Remember these words from Jor-El from Super the Movie.

Jor-El: But you must still keep your secret identity.
Kal-El: Why?
Jor-El: The reasons are two. First, you cannot serve humanity 28 hours a day.
Kal-El: 24.
Jor-El: Or 24, as it is in Earth time. Your help would be called for endlessly, even for those tasks that human being can solve themselves. It is their habit to abuse their resources in such a way.

Superman sets an example. He's suppose to inspire people, and used only for emergencies, not as a cure-all. He needs to be visible to accomplish this.

[JulianPerez]

To the people arguing that using "super-speed" means Superman is more violent, why?

Super-speed in fact, would mean less violence. Take for example the recent JLA classified storyline where the entire JLA takes on a guy's army to capture a dictator.

exactly why didn't superman simply speed-blitz, grab the guy and move out. Using the speed-blitz technique, Superman would in fact cause less violence, not more.

I didn't say it was a question of Superman being violent or not, but rather that the a Dragonball Z-esque speed blitz, such an overt use of applying force to a problem has three problems with it: 1) it's overkill, and 2) Superman has always been characterized as being someone that uses the least amount of force to solve a problem., and 3) it is something of a failure of the imagination; Superman uses his powers in clever ways to provide solutions. If a writer has Superman just throw a punch at a bad guy, that doesn't make it a bad story...but you know, it is a strong piece of circumstantial evidence. :D

Remember these words from Jor-El from Super the Movie.

Jor-El: But you must still keep your secret identity.
Kal-El: Why?
Jor-El: The reasons are two. First, you cannot serve humanity 28 hours a day.
Kal-El: 24.
Jor-El: Or 24, as it is in Earth time. Your help would be called for endlessly, even for those tasks that human being can solve themselves. It is their habit to abuse their resources in such a way.

Superman sets an example. He's suppose to inspire people, and used only for emergencies, not as a cure-all. He needs to be visible to accomplish this.

While you do make an excellent point, I do not think that writers should set out to have Superman be an "inspiration" or "inspiring." Writers shouldn't have Superman try to behave that way - just have Superman be himself and his ability to inspire takes care of itself. Also, one of Superman's greatest weaknesses is that he is too humble to understand his effect on people - he has too much humility to see himself as an inspiration.

[AllisterH]

I didn't say it was a question of Superman being violent or not, but rather that the a Dragonball Z-esque speed blitz, such an overt use of applying force to a problem has three problems with it: 1) it's overkill, and 2) Superman has always been characterized as being someone that uses the least amount of force to solve a problem., and 3) it is something of a failure of the imagination; Superman uses his powers in clever ways to provide solutions. If a writer has Superman just throw a punch at a bad guy, that doesn't make it a bad story...but you know, it is a strong piece of circumstantial evidence. :D



You're not understanding me JulianPerez.

A speedbltiz does not mean a DBZ level speed blitz where the Z-senshi utilize their full speed and strength against an opponent.

Here the current situation. Superman fights livewire.

Without Speedblitz
She causes property damage and injures people as Superman maneouvres her into a situation where he can soak her. 24 pages of destruction later, Superman has won.

With Speedblitz
He simply speedblitzes behind her and *LIGHTLY* taps her on the neck. No muss, no fuss, problem solved. One panel tops.

[Fenix]

This resembles a lot the medical practice.
You have that kind of physicians that rarely stops to tell the patient anything or even try to stablish a connection with him, they are just there to fix you.
The sooner you get the treatment the better so they can move on to the next patient.
OTOH you have the kind of physicians that stablish a connection with you and treats every patient as the only one.
Which type would you choose? Obviously, the one that cures you, you would say, but it is a fact that physicians that stablish a connection with their patients got better results from them. Everytime. I`m not talking in a Patch Adams kind of way, but in a regular, human interaction way.

Basically, because that is what matters in the end, thats what really inspire people. To be there, not only us a blur, but as a human, who can also save them but also hold them, and let them cry in his shoulder.

[Mainline]

Superman sets an example. He's suppose to inspire people, and used only for emergencies, not as a cure-all. He needs to be visible to accomplish this.Bingo.

While you do make an excellent point, I do not think that writers should set out to have Superman be an "inspiration" or "inspiring." Writers shouldn't have Superman try to behave that way - just have Superman be himself and his ability to inspire takes care of itself. Also, one of Superman's greatest weaknesses is that he is too humble to understand his effect on people - he has too much humility to see himself as an inspiration.I agree it doesn't take a conscious effort on Superman's part, but it should on the writer's otherwise they'll end up with a Samaritan.

Basically, because that is what matters in the end, thats what really inspire people. To be there, not only us a blur, but as a human, who can also save them but also hold them, and let them cry in his shoulder.I like your example of medical practice, although I would temper it by saying there's also no proof anything goes neglected by Superman. His whole shtick is cutting out of meetings as Clark to avert disaster despite EGee's dreams of rape and abuse.

I'd liken it to being a teacher. Superman wants to enjoy his job AND make an impact. He teaches the whole classroom 8 hours a day, spends 2-3 hours with the kids that need extra help, then the rest of the time improving himself or the class whether by rest, training, experience, etc. to be more effective during his next day. After he leaves, the kids have learned something, their classroom is improved, and a curriculum and lesson plan remains for the next teacher and class to build on (and what he does improves other teachers with their classes).

Samaritan, on the other hand, is like the teacher who decides to work a 15 hour day and decides to split it evenly amongst 25 students. He'll take 5 minutes to take attendance and do the Pledge as a group, then zip from student to student teaching them each the exact same thing over and over in 5 minute intervals. Ultimately each student only gets around 30 minutes of teaching every day. Samaritan then moans about how he resents the kids for taking up all his time, wonders why they don't learn faster or better, thinks to himself how lucky they are to have him- how anyone in any other class would love to meet him, and plunks down to do it all again tomorrow. Test time comes and he decides it's not worth explaining so he takes the test for them all. When he leaves, the lesson "plan" is unusable and the students have learned nothing except that they'd never want to be a teacher like Samaritan.

[Agentum]

This is comic books!!
You can agree to disagree, you have diffrent opinions of what a true hero is, so what?

[Yoda]

Well, i know of one trainwreck that needs to be saved, if Samaritan or Superman aren't too busy.

This thread.

[SuperManny]

Don´t patronize me, otherwise I promise you, I will escalate.

No you won't. In fact, you and Mainline are now openly warned to cut the insults. I think both of you have made your points about the differences clear.

[Mainline]

This is comic books!!
You can agree to disagree, you have diffrent opinions of what a true hero is, so what?It goes directly to the heart of what the DCU is doing.

As long as we're using parables... if you have a log in your eye and a friend has a splinter, you remove the log before you pluck the splinter. Samaritan has no life but is trying to save them in the name of unselfishness. The end result will be loss compared to Superman's approach.

Alex Ross says (in reference to "Peace on Earth" how Superman learns to lead through example instead of hands on), "To me, Superman as a fictional character is just as important as if he existed in flesh and blood- either way he is inspirational, and that's what's relevant."

That maturity and inspiration crushes Samaritan's approach because it transcends the pages of the book. Samaritan has burn-out written across his forehead, where as Superman influences and models heroism with in his world and even in ours. These heroes have power, but they get their priorities straight after Crisis.

Just because you can build a spy satellite doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can play judge, jury, executioner doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can create a paradise for humanity doesn't mean you should.

The Trinity, after months of essentially being Samaritan, trying to up their efficacy while forgetting about the goals and ideals that drove them, they woke up and proceeded to take the log out of their eyes. Batman went on a journey to rebuild Batman WITH his disciples, that he could impact them, be an inspiration to them, and model heroism. When Batman returns from that, his virtues have returned- humor, teamwork, forgiveness (Bullock)- he is now more effective in a REAL sense, as opposed to protocols against enemies and spy satellites. Wonder Woman departs on the advice to recapture her HUMANITY, those things which give her a life, perspective, and so on. Again, to return more effective. For Superman, the same, he recaptures his identity, his focus, and his joy.

All three return to model something effective and reproducible and therefore fruitful far far beyond the mechanical, computer-driven algorithm Samaritan is a slave to and limited completely to himself and the pages of his own story.

[marshal99]

I'm sure if DC thinks a 3 page comic is going to make money , it sure will have superman speedblitzing every problem in sight. :D

[Agentum]

It goes directly to the heart of what the DCU is doing.

As long as we're using parables... if you have a log in your eye and a friend has a splinter, you remove the log before you pluck the splinter. Samaritan has no life but is trying to save them in the name of unselfishness. The end result will be loss compared to Superman's approach.

Alex Ross says (in reference to "Peace on Earth" how Superman learns to lead through example instead of hands on), "To me, Superman as a fictional character is just as important as if he existed in flesh and blood- either way he is inspirational, and that's what's relevant."



I can't understand that, i think it become a bit scary when fictional characters is as important to you as real people.
I like some comic characters a lot myself and gets angry sometimes when they do something i don't like with them, but i don't take it as serious as real life.I hate the new Green Arrow series, and i often trash it if i can, but i can always go back to my old GA books and read them again, it's not like the whole world goes under or something because the new writers sucks.
Superman is a hero of course, he is the most known superhero in the whole world, to me he is a bit to much but thats my opinion.

[Mainline]

I can't understand that, i think it become a bit scary when fictional characters is as important to you as real people.Not as important, but certainly remains important.

If you read Superman #800, Fabian Nicieza's recent Newsarama interview, or "It's A Bird", you'll see Superman having real-world impact on individuals- helping them learn to read, making them not feel so alien as foreigners in a new country, or realizing the value of hope over cynicism during adversity- these are tangible things a fictional character is doing in our world.

[Fenix]

I can't understand that, i think it become a bit scary when fictional characters is as important to you as real people.
I like some comic characters a lot myself and gets angry sometimes when they do something i don't like with them, but i don't take it as serious as real life.I hate the new Green Arrow series, and i often trash it if i can, but i can always go back to my old GA books and read them again, it's not like the whole world goes under or something because the new writers sucks.
Superman is a hero of course, he is the most known superhero in the whole world, to me he is a bit to much but thats my opinion.

ok, but I think what Mainline is trying to highlight here is the quality for Inspiration. A fictional character doesn`t exist, but the ideal, the concepts transcends the pages.
Mainline as I agreed (I guess) that being a Hero is more than the summon of his deeds, quality over quantity.

And It is on topic, because that is what we are talking about, not has the plain and obvious but the implications of such.

As Mainline hightlight before, but useful to be highlighted again:
Just because you can build a spy satellite doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can play judge, jury, executioner doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can create a paradise for humanity doesn't mean you should.
and I will add What Superman said to Green Lantern (Kyle-ION by that time GL#149 pg13 last 4 panels):

"Superman: Our job, our porpuse is to protect people in the grand scheme of things. We keep the world spinning on its axis, proverbially and literally. When the inimaginable occurs we step in and throttle the life out of it. We allow humanity to keep on living... But we don´t do the living for them.
People have to make their own way, Kyle. They have to do for themselves. We need police to enforce law, firefighters to douse the flames, doctors to heal the sick. Humanity helping humanity. And when you take all that out of their hands... they aren´t living. They`re being Kept".

And Finally, -I don`t remember exactly, because I couldn`t find the quote-, but it goes like this:
"Ion: So then what is the advantege of having such a power?
Superman: To Catch them if they fall".

I'm sure if DC thinks a 3 page comic is going to make money , it sure will have superman speedblitzing every problem in sight.

Tell me something, have you read some stories, generally big fight ones, where everything seems to be read in just a couple of seconds?
If you have, ask yourself if that is the felling you would like to have after reading a Superman comic book. If it not, then it isn`t important whether there is or not a market available now or in 300 years from now.

[JulianPerez]

You're not understanding me JulianPerez.

A speedbltiz does not mean a DBZ level speed blitz where the Z-senshi utilize their full speed and strength against an opponent.

Here the current situation. Superman fights livewire.

Without Speedblitz
She causes property damage and injures people as Superman maneouvres her into a situation where he can soak her. 24 pages of destruction later, Superman has won.

With Speedblitz
He simply speedblitzes behind her and *LIGHTLY* taps her on the neck. No muss, no fuss, problem solved. One panel tops.

Point taken. What presumably this thread is talking about is Superman throwing 10,000 punches a second or something to that effect, which is not something Superman would do. But something like what you're talking about? The fact Superman can do this sort of thing should be in the back of writers minds while they plan Superman stories.

Though the Legion of Super-Villains possessed only one or two powers each, unlike Live Wire, they had been shown to have this incredible ferocious cunning and ability to plan which transcended their one power each ability; in their first appearance, they lured Superman into a trap through illusions and threatened innocent people to make their escapes, and so forth. It's very difficult to imagine Live Wire doing the same, in order to be a credible threat to Superman, who if he's written intelligently, should do EXACTLY what you describe.

[Grazzt]

This resembles a lot the medical practice.
You have that kind of physicians that rarely stops to tell the patient anything or even try to stablish a connection with him, they are just there to fix you.
The sooner you get the treatment the better so they can move on to the next patient.
OTOH you have the kind of physicians that stablish a connection with you and treats every patient as the only one.
Which type would you choose? Obviously, the one that cures you, you would say, but it is a fact that physicians that stablish a connection with their patients got better results from them. Everytime. I`m not talking in a Patch Adams kind of way, but in a regular, human interaction way.

There's a slight difference here. Would you really like your doctor to make a connection with you if it was going to cause someone else to die? That's pretty much the problem with Superman not using his powers effectively. He could probably save lives if he didn't take his time like this.

Just because you can create a paradise for humanity doesn't mean you should.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I know that if I could create paradise without hurting anyone, I would.

If you read Superman #800, Fabian Nicieza's recent Newsarama interview, or "It's A Bird", you'll see Superman having real-world impact on individuals- helping them learn to read, making them not feel so alien as foreigners in a new country, or realizing the value of hope over cynicism during adversity- these are tangible things a fictional character is doing in our world.

So you consider making people feel better more important than saving their lives? Again, I really can't understand how you could think that.

The other explanation for all this (one that both sides have missed) is that Superman isn't needed as much as Samaritan is. With multiple super speedsters in the DC universe, there's no reason that they all don't just take shifts.

[Adrian Tullberg]

I wonder if there's going to be superspeed available in the Superman Returns game ...

[Agentum]

ok, but I think what Mainline is trying to highlight here is the quality for Inspiration. A fictional character doesn`t exist, but the ideal, the concepts transcends the pages.
Mainline as I agreed (I guess) that being a Hero is more than the summon of his deeds, quality over quantity.

And It is on topic, because that is what we are talking about, not has the plain and obvious but the implications of such.

As Mainline hightlight before, but useful to be highlighted again:
Just because you can build a spy satellite doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can play judge, jury, executioner doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can create a paradise for humanity doesn't mean you should.
and I will add What Superman said to Green Lantern (Kyle-ION by that time GL#149 pg13 last 4 panels):

"Superman: Our job, our porpuse is to protect people in the grand scheme of things. We keep the world spinning on its axis, proverbially and literally. When the inimaginable occurs we step in and throttle the life out of it. We allow humanity to keep on living... But we don´t do the living for them.
People have to make their own way, Kyle. They have to do for themselves. We need police to enforce law, firefighters to douse the flames, doctors to heal the sick. Humanity helping humanity. And when you take all that out of their hands... they aren´t living. They`re being Kept".

And Finally, -I don`t remember exactly, because I couldn`t find the quote-, but it goes like this:
"Ion: So then what is the advantege of having such a power?
Superman: To Catch them if they fall".



.
Well ok fair enogh, but it gets too deep for me, i can understand young children lerning stuff from Superman, i think there was i comic with Superman lerning kids how to avoid mines etc.

But as an "adult" i can't really learn anything from the character, i don't have comic characters as role models, a story can of course tell me something but that is the writer ans artist telling me something.

I wish i was a kid when i read things like this, but i'm not.:)

[Fenix]

Agentum
But as an "adult" i can't really learn anything from the character, i don't have comic characters as role models, a story can of course tell me something but that is the writer ans artist telling me something.

:) ok, but I guess we´ve already agreed that Superman doesn´t exist :)

Seriously, the importance of the character, the ideal behind it or the concept, is what creates the window for different artists to tell you something useful about it.
It´s like a movie, when is played right, maybe you walked out the cinema with a different perspective about X something.

[Fenix]

Grazzt
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I know that if I could create paradise without hurting anyone, I would.

There my fellow CBR friend, is the kit to the question.
That is the main concept that creates the opposite positions.
why? IMHO, of course because you can´t Create a paradise without hurting anyone. Always, someone will be hurt. "One man´s treasure is another man´s garbagge" paraphrasing the old said.

Anyway let me tell you another example:
Imagine someone is going to commit suicide.
One hero save him at speedblizt, and move to save another one.
Another hero save him, and talk a bit with him in order to help him desist of his intention. Encourage him to seek help, and to enjoy life.
You Could say that the second hero, waste time, and while the first one saved 3 lives for example, the second one only saved one.
Well, let me tell you something:
The first one apparently saved 3, but most probably, he saved NONE.
The second Saved 1 of 3, but probably, He saved THAT ONE for sure.

Why, you may ask? because you have to change the Man before changing the world. Changing the world without changing the man is like the world we live in. We take pills to stop the pain, but we do nothing to stop the cause of that pain. Patch the world at high speed if that makes you fell better but at the end, it will have the same problems again and again.
Change the man first and the world will change as result.

[Daniel Lewis]

I wonder if there's going to be superspeed available in the Superman Returns game ...

From the game informer I read, yes. Superman travels about 300mph in-game during flight. But if you press the "superspeed" button, Superman will go around 700mph. They decided you need superspeed in a Superman game, since the in-game environment is about 80 square miles.

[Mainline]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I know that if I could create paradise without hurting anyone, I would.Particularly in the areas of free-will and liberty and then ultimately maturity, there's no way for a being like Superman or Samaritan to create paradise.

If a "hero" suspends the consequences of free-will then there is no true free-will. The ultimate goal is the maturation of humanity such that they freely choose things that brings about paradise on their own.

So you consider making people feel better more important than saving their lives? Again, I really can't understand how you could think that.No. First off, you misread the quote, since those are REAL lives. Thus Superman's impact on REAL lives exceeds that of the billions of fictional lives he or Samaritan has saved infinitely times over. So put in that light, I'd rather have Superman impact one real-world life for the better than save all the fictional characters in the world (even though, he does that too).

But even in the context of the fictional world, it means that a symbol is more important- and ultimately effective- than a sacrifice in many cases. Countless people put their bodies/lives/liberty on the line to fight for civil rights, but by and large their names are lost to history. But someone doing, by contrast, a relatively trivial thing over a bus seat goes down in history as a source of inspiration to her contemporaries as well as those after her. People comparing one moment against one life have a small view of the responsibility on the shoulders of heroes who can literally reshape the world with their own hands. The key is to model something reproducible to your contemporaries and those who will follow after to the benefit of all.

[Mainline]

I wonder if there's going to be superspeed available in the Superman Returns game ...Aside from the super-flight already mentioned, Superman will have a "blitz" style attack you can see in the video on the top right:

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/774/774362/vids_1.html

[Adrian Tullberg]

Ta muchly.

[Rylon]

One can hear a woman being stoned to death in Afghanistan because she had the audacity to allow herself to be gang-raped and choses to idly entertain a conversation with Lois over what´s for dinner.Could you provide an example? I've never read a story where Superman heard an injustice thrugh superhearing and did nothing.

Indeed, the original reason he took a job at as a reporter is so that he could learn about disasters and crime as it was happening. Superman/Clark Kent is also about stopping organized crime. Lex Luthor and Intergang pose such a problem because they are organized.

[Grazzt]

Particularly in the areas of free-will and liberty and then ultimately maturity, there's no way for a being like Superman or Samaritan to create paradise.

If a "hero" suspends the consequences of free-will then there is no true free-will. The ultimate goal is the maturation of humanity such that they freely choose things that brings about paradise on their own.

I agree with you that there's no way that Superman or Samaritan can create a perfect paradise. However, if they were capable of such, I would expect them to do it.

No. First off, you misread the quote, since those are REAL lives. Thus Superman's impact on REAL lives exceeds that of the billions of fictional lives he or Samaritan has saved infinitely times over. So put in that light, I'd rather have Superman impact one real-world life for the better than save all the fictional characters in the world (even though, he does that too).

How has Superman ever impacted real lives? Methinks you overestimate his importance as an icon.

Also, think about the lives he's negatively impacted, through the creation of fanboys. :p

But even in the context of the fictional world, it means that a symbol is more important- and ultimately effective- than a sacrifice in many cases. Countless people put their bodies/lives/liberty on the line to fight for civil rights, but by and large their names are lost to history. But someone doing, by contrast, a relatively trivial thing over a bus seat goes down in history as a source of inspiration to her contemporaries as well as those after her. People comparing one moment against one life have a small view of the responsibility on the shoulders of heroes who can literally reshape the world with their own hands. The key is to model something reproducible to your contemporaries and those who will follow after to the benefit of all.

But that's the thing, the DC universe is already crawling with superheroes who could serve as far better models. I think Green Arrow or Batman are better models than Superman, for the simple reason that having no powers allows them to be more relateable to the average person in the DC Universe. As an example, a very wonderful scene in DKR has a baker rush out to defend a woman being mugged because Batman gave him the courage to do so.

The presence of Superman might do the opposite. People simply realise that they're weak and powerless in the face of something so grand. If it requires a Superman to stop, then there's really no hope for the common man. They can never hope to match Superman, so why bother?

[Apathy Boy]

Superman is a guy that puts on the costume once or twice a day to go stop a bank robbery or a falling plane.You don't read many Superman comics, do you? Superman isn't Batman, who only shows up at night. Superman is always on duty. How many times have we seen Clark Kent fabricate some lame reason to excuse himself from the office so he could fly off to the rescue?

There is a very simple reason Superman does not speedblitz. It is because he is in the practice of protecting life. And flying at supersonic speeds in heavily populated metropolitan areas is NOT a good idea.

[phantom1592]

There is a very simple reason Superman does not speedblitz. It is because he is in the practice of protecting life. And flying at supersonic speeds in heavily populated metropolitan areas is NOT a good idea.


Best Answer Yet :)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There is a very simple reason Superman does not speedblitz. It is because he is in the practice of protecting life. And flying at supersonic speeds in heavily populated metropolitan areas is NOT a good idea.


If that were the case, there would be no Keystone City.

<- Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics to comic books, somewhere in the world a catgirl dies

[Adrian Tullberg]

If that were the case, there would be no Keystone City.

<- Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics to comic books, somewhere in the world a catgirl dies

The Flashes seem to have -

(a) a personal force-field, or 'aura' that protects them from friction .
(b) a degree of self-molecular control that allows them to be intangible.

[phantom1592]

The Flashes seem to have -

(a) a personal force-field, or 'aura' that protects them from friction .
(b) a degree of self-molecular control that allows them to be intangible.

And for a long time Wally (and now Jay) can only max the speed of sound. The booms come less frequently now :D

[Apathy Boy]

If that were the case, there would be no Keystone City.

<- Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics to comic books, somewhere in the world a catgirl diesHonestly, I think it's silly to be clamouring for "realism" in superhero comics to begin with. But since you were arguing that it'd be more realistic for Superman to use his superspeed more, I thought I'd give a counterpoint that was grounded in realism. It seems disingenuous for you to then claim that certain standards of realism should apply to superheroes while others should not.

Anyway, Adrian is right. The Speed Force mitigates the damage speedsters do to themselves and the environment. That's why Zoom, who is not linked to the Speed Force, can create some really destructive sonic booms by snapping his fingers.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Honestly, I think it's silly to be clamouring for "realism" in superhero comics to begin with. But since you were arguing that it'd be more realistic for Superman to use his superspeed more, I thought I'd give a counterpoint that was grounded in realism. It seems disingenuous for you to then claim that certain standards of realism should apply to superheroes while others should not.

A man´s willingness to use his superspeed to address the tragedies that his supersenses can detect ocurring around the worlld 24/7 has more to do with character and personality traits than the lack of "realism".

[GUTB]

The essential disconnect the superhero genere has constantly been saddled with -- super-human powers can be abused for fullfilling the evil plans of villians, but never utilized for realizing the good plans of heroes. You can have someone trying to enslave the world, but you can't have someone else try and liberate it. You can have someone try to kill all life, but you can't have someone else try and eradicate death.

If I was Samaritan, would spend my whole life mostly saving people from a crappy civlization, or would my top priority be targeting the roots of crime, mental disease, poverty, and so on? Pretty obvious which way that discision would swing.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Regarding Superman´s impact on people´s lives as an icon, Batman said something really interesting in IC:
"- Last time you inspired someone was when you died."

[NotSuper]

Regarding Superman´s impact on people´s lives as an icon, Batman said something really interesting in IC:
"- Last time you inspired someone was when you died."
Personally, that didn't inspire me as I didn't care for the story. There are many Superman stories that are infinitely better than the whole "Death/Return" saga.

[IamtheRock3]

If that were the case, there would be no Keystone City.

<- Everytime someone tries to apply real world physics to comic books, somewhere in the world a catgirl dies


Same reason you dont Apply Real World LOGIC,To Comics

It no Reason Why the heroes dont use there resoruces to build better Jails so the villans wont escape
No reason Why Flash's city shouldnt be a Pardise
No reason why Gotha should be still crime riddent and bats wold keep superman out
Same for Bluedavin and metroplis
No reason why they should be chaos in the 3rd world country in marvel

See Samartin has a big difference between Superman. Same Reason RED SON superman can do the things he does

Doesnt have to tell 4 comics a month stories..and keep them going on a monthly basis..for probally for a lenght of time our kids going to be reading them

See they dont have to deal with the Contradiction I put in Bold. That why Red Son Superman solves his promblems pretty much permantly in years. And when he went to far Luthor moved in and what did you get a UTOPIA

Yes he should speedblitz more..it stupit when he getting his butt kicked by someone slower then him. But doenst have to do it 24/7

Superman Family life part of his charcter. wouldnt be Superman without it. He does it to connect with humans so he wont turn justice Lords on us. remeber Superman was orginaly base on bibical refrences. Becoming one with man a big part of his mythos

[IamtheRock3]

Regarding Superman´s impact on people´s lives as an icon, Batman said something really interesting in IC:
"- Last time you inspired someone was when you died."


Yes but according to your logic batman not a hero. He should have use his money to beefed up Arkham. How many people could of been saved if he did that. Heck 1 Dollar can save a starving kid in Africa. He should auction off that Giant Penny, Say Batman gave it to him..and donate the chariy to them. But he doesnt and thus people in Africa dies because of it

Give a Billion to them..he got a couple of it. Enough for a Batman Plane. Every time he shagging Talia, Catwoman, Vesper, or Sasha Botox..is time he could be using his mind to cure diseases and fund programs.

I mean he actully slept with some of these women. Batman an Athletic guy so he could of last..and the least half and hour. Time that could of been spent tracking down serial killers

Ollie have the nerve to spend time sleeping With Cannary and having a life. He should be out stopping crime. Heck how much those arrows cost any way...donate 90 percent of his funds.

99 percent of Super heroes arent heroes then

Heck why dont we drop our live savings to help people. Cant deny it wouldnt save lifes

Answer being a hero doesnt require suffering. Thats being a martyr

Edit

And another thing Batman actully tells heroes to stay OUT of HIS city..love the guy but how many lives he costing cause of that. Knigfall would be solved in seconds

Real reason. DC wanted to keep Gotham down to Earth to tell crime stories and So Batman would be the Gothams MAIN hero.

Using Real world logic is just as bad as using Real World Science

Even though they have brough up Scientific explanations IN COMICS on why Superman doesnt use his speed more..and it due to what other postes said..endagers lives

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I agree that if Superman were to go Samaritan (which he should, if he was written properly; I mean, how can he hear a child being raped by her parent in Boston or a village being burned in Sudan and stand there idly chatting to Jimmy?), his stories would make for a less interesting read.

It´s the writer´s JOB to come up with an explanation why Superman isn´t superspeeding around the globe constantly - because if the DC earth is anywwhere like our world, he should.

If the DCU earth truly is a reflection of ours (only with capes in it), where emergencies are going off ten times per second and Superman has the supersenses to detect them happening, LOGIC dictates that he would feel compelled to intervene - meaning spending 99% of his time speeding across the planet-
If there truly is a heroic heart beating in that chest, that is.

So, again, it´s up to the WRITER to explain why he doesn´t.

And it really doesnt´take much to do so: just limit his supersenses.

Say he can´t hear atoms scrape together.
Remove his soul vsion.
Limit his telescopic vision.
Say he can´t see through the earth´s crust, and thus can´t see what´s happening on the other side of the planet.

Limit his ability to detect emergencies to only a few hundred miles.

It´s not hard.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yes but according to your logic batman not a hero. He should have use his money to beefed up Arkham. How many people could of been saved if he did that. Heck 1 Dollar can save a starving kid in Africa. He should auction off that Giant Penny, Say Batman gave it to him..and donate the chariy to them. But he doesnt and thus people in Africa dies because of it

Give a Billion to them..he got a couple of it. Enough for a Batman Plane. Every time he shagging Talia, Catwoman, Vesper, or Sasha Botox..is time he could be using his mind to cure diseases and fund programs.

I mean he actully slept with some of these women. Batman an Athletic guy so he could of last..and the least half and hour. Time that could of been spent tracking down serial killers

Ollie have the nerve to spend time sleeping With Cannary and having a life. He should be out stopping crime. Heck how much those arrows cost any way...donate 90 percent of his funds.

99 percent of Super heroes arent heroes then

Heck why dont we drop our live savings to help people. Cant deny it wouldnt save lifes

Answer being a hero doesnt require suffering. Thats being a martyr

Edit

And another thing Batman actully tells heroes to stay OUT of HIS city..love the guy but how many lives he costing cause of that. Knigfall would be solved in seconds

Real reason. DC wanted to keep Gotham down to Earth to tell crime stories and So Batman would be the Gothams MAIN hero.

Using Real world logic is just as bad as using Real World Science

Even though they have brough up Scientific explanations IN COMICS on why Superman doesnt use his speed more..and it due to what other postes said..endagers lives

Well, Batman is a whole new can of worms I won´t even go into since this is a Superman forum and a Superman thread.

I´d love to discuss how a NORMAL guy who has sustained the number of injuries he has in all these years can even walk.

Or how a NORMAL guy can hold his own in HTH combat with the likes of Batgirl who can move faster than bullets.

Or how a NORMAL guy was able to acquire the equivalent of a PHD in pretty much any field of knowledge known to man from engineering to chemistry to forensics whereas a NORMAL person has to sweat and bleed trying to excel at only ONE of them.

Or how on top of that a NORMAL guy managed to be one of the top ten martial experts in the world on dozens (hundreds?) of martial arts disciplines.

I usually just LAUGH when someone says that Batman is the peak of human acchievement.
Please.
To be able to do what he does or did, Batman should be at least a meta!

But I´ll save all that for a Batman discussion on the Batman forums.

[IamtheRock3]

thing is occasinly they dod

Recent he said he has to slow down when he get near..not to create a sonic boom

And really it hard to give Explanation on why some stuff in DC arent better. no REAL explantion why heroes dont Help Gotham with making Batman look like a worlds biggers sociapath and Heroes looking like cowaring to him

no real explanation why they dont use there resources on jails.


DC is a reflection of the real world..but more of a Fantasy version wit Gian robots..hyper releaze

it not old school marvel. It arcetype fantasy, and mythology

Requirs suspension of disbleif when it comes to science AND logic

It much easeirs to handle these thing with Samaratin..because one writer. Not over 50 writers over 60 years..4 issues a month sometimes


Real world batman would have to be conflicted with killing the Joker..some cop would of shot him 50 times THINKING he had a gun (reloaded) and done it 50 more times

Someone would of done that by now. And the city would cheer. Or He would of be fried..First electric chair didnt work..after a few more murders..trust me they try again

But that doesnt happen because we WANT Batman to be conflicted

[Mainline]

I agree with you that there's no way that Superman or Samaritan can create a perfect paradise. However, if they were capable of such, I would expect them to do it.How? That's like saying if they could make a 4-sided triangle they should. Nonsense remains nonsense regardless of omnipotence.

How has Superman ever impacted real lives? Methinks you overestimate his importance as an icon.Reading comprehension, sigh. I cited several real world examples, you could go back and read them. Action #800 covers a couple in vignettes provided by the writers: providing bonding between a distant son and father, helping a girl to read, etc. Fabian mentions how Superman helped him feel less awkward in a new country with a different language and helped him learn English. It's already been cited how Superman comics help kids avoid minefields in war-torn countries. For Steven Seagle, examing why people want a Superman helped him get over his own personal crisis and cyncism in the semi-autobiographical "It's A Bird". As an icon Superman gave clout to Christopher Reeve's mission after his accident. And purely on an economic lives, there's no doubt Superman can change the lives of his writers.

By and large things not accomplished by anti-heroes or Samaritans in the REAL world.

**EDITED BY MOD**

By the same token, anti-heroes exhibit only the power of moral lattitude. But again it remains a mechanical means to a limited ends. Time and time again, we're shown their power is illusionary, working only in a society that decides it wants to be better. When everyone is exhibiting the moral lattitude of the anti-hero, no one has power, least of all the anti-hero in his dystopia. Real heroes, like Superman, show the only type of sustainable future.

[Mainline]

And really it hard to give Explanation on why some stuff in DC arent better. no REAL explantion why heroes dont Help Gotham with making Batman look like a worlds biggers sociapath and Heroes looking like cowaring to him
Exactly, arguing efficacy is stupid and totally misunderstands the DCU.
Why doesn't Superman wear a hazard suit or anti-magic totems?
Why doesn't Batman wear Ironman-type armor, learn sorcery, or fund a SCU?
Why doesn't Flash never stop running or use time-travel to win?
Why doesn't Wonder Woman use her stance on killing to clean up the DCU?

These types of questions are a failure on the part of the reader to understand DC Comics.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

And really it hard to give Explanation on why some stuff in DC arent better. no REAL explantion why heroes dont Help Gotham with making Batman look like a worlds biggers sociapath and Heroes looking like cowaring to him


no real explanation why they dont use there resources on jails.


DC is a reflection of the real world..but more of a Fantasy version wit Gian robots..hyper releaze

it not old school marvel. It arcetype fantasy, and mythology

Requirs suspension of disbleif when it comes to science AND logic

It much easeirs to handle these thing with Samaratin..because one writer. Not over 50 writers over 60 years..4 issues a month sometimes


Real world batman would have to be conflicted with killing the Joker..some cop would of shot him 50 times THINKING he had a gun (reloaded) and done it 50 more times

Someone would of done that by now. And the city would cheer. Or He would of be fried..First electric chair didnt work..after a few more murders..trust me they try again

But that doesnt happen because we WANT Batman to be conflicted





Batman´s writing is all over the place.
Personally I came to the point where I´m so fed up with what he´s allowed the Joker to pull that whenever the Joker kills a couple dozen more people I just blame it on Bats.
And his refusal to allow metas to operate in Gotham is just ridiculous, "No, Teen Titans, don´t come in here to help otherwise ýou´ll attract supervillains." Really? Because last time I´ve checked, half of his rogues galleries are metas!

But enough about Bats, there´s a whole forum reserved for him.

Our present Superman is only 20 years old (since CotIE), so no reason why the writers would have a problem keeping him coherent.

After Byrne´s reboot and well into a couple years later, he was still portrayed as a reasonably powerful creature. Not able to dramatically change the world of realpolitiks or make the world spin off-axis but still powerful enough to demand irespect in the meta community.
It was a more grounded character, IMHO.
Only lately, when they boosted his powers into planet-shattering levels, has he stopped to make sense.
We have a being that is so powerful now that there is no reason why he hasn´t impacted profoundly on the lives of everyone in the planet.


EGee

Supermanny has already told you to cut that out.

You want to refer to me, call me by my name.

"In the time he saves a cat, there are countless other more serious crimes occuring in his reality. In the time he begrudgingly accepts an award, people get brutally raped in his world. All making him a callous soul and mechanical cog who uses the algorithm of his computer-run life to excuse his actions."

Nope, his tech allows him to create a hierarchy of emergencies, so that he knows what to address first. If he is saving a cat and not rescuing another person from being raped or killed, that ´s because his tech is telling him that nobody is getting raped or killed at that very second.

[Mainline]

Nope, his tech allows him to create a hierarchy of emergencies, so that he knows what to address first. If he is saving a cat and not rescuing another person from being raped or killed, that ´s because his tech is telling him that nobody is getting raped or killed at that very second.EGee, that's wishful thinking. By your screaming hair-pulling ranting "logic" that's frankly not possible and rather ridiculous that the cat in the tree is the worst thing happening in the entire planet at that very moment. Nevermind the fact you ignored the press conferences and award ceremonies. Samaritan is just as guilty of neglect without anything to show for it.

If it is possible that seconds, minutes, entire ceremonies can be conducted without tragedy, then why is it not possible that Superman is not neglecting crime elsewhere? Only by faulty logic is Superman magically more condemned.

[SuperManny]

The Flashes seem to have -

(a) a personal force-field, or 'aura' that protects them from friction .
(b) a degree of self-molecular control that allows them to be intangible.

That doesn't prevent them from causing sonic shocks in the air......if you're applying real world physics of course.

;)

[SuperManny]

EGee, that's wishful thinking. By your screaming hair-pulling ranting "logic" that's frankly not possible and rather ridiculous that the cat in the tree is the worst thing happening in the entire planet at that very moment. Nevermind the fact you ignored the press conferences and award ceremonies. Samaritan is just as guilty of neglect without anything to show for it.
.......

Mainline, if you can't have a civil discussion about the topic (by cutting out the personal jabs) then you've given me no choice but to close it.

I think this thread has reached its discussion point anyway. :mad: