Why Couldn't E2 Superman solo Super Boy Prime?

[Ragnorok64]

I thought one of the reasons that Superboy Prime was so powerful was because he was at Pre-Crisis power level. But shouldn't Kal-L also have been at Pre Crisis power level? Why couldn't he have just single handedly pound some sence into SuperBoy Prime. Am I missing something:confused:

[Robotech Master]

I was under the impression that Pre-Crisis Superman was only at his God-Like level primarily in the Pre-Crisis Earth 1.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The Earth-2 Superman was meant to represent the original Superman who first appeared in 1938, who was a much less powerful character.

Originally, Superman could only leap tall buildings in a singe bound, not fly over them. His skin couldn't withstand high artillery. As he grew older, he grew more powerful and became a match for his Earth-1 counterpart, who was insanely powerful, but once he reached old age, he wasn't nearly the powerhouse that Earth-1's Superman was.

Post-Crisis, Byrne's Superman was somewhere in between the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Supermen in terms of power.

[MythicBrawn]

The power levels of all the Supermen fluctuate so much that DC doesn't have a definite level for each person. I would think that SBP would have mopped up the floor with Kal-L and Kal-El with his armor enhancements. Unfortunately, that was not the direction of the story. It was necessary for E2 Superman to die and current Superman to live. That is what happened and the only thing you can do is to accept it.

[Buried Alien]

During INFINITE CRISIS, I think Kal-L was likely more powerful than Kal-El. My reason is based on how the two Supermen fared against Doomsday in INFINITE CRISIS # 7. Kal-El, as usual, struggled against Doomsday (took a hit and went down in pain), but Kal-L just casually blocked Doomsday's punch with one hand, then bloodied Doomsday with a kneejab. Kal-El has never been able to hurt Doomsday so easily, or turn away Doomsday's blows so effortlessly.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Ragnorok64]

During INFINITE CRISIS, I think Kal-L was likely more powerful than Kal-El. My reason is based on how the two Supermen fared against Doomsday in INFINITE CRISIS # 7. Kal-El, as usual, struggled against Doomsday (took a hit and went down in pain), but Kal-L just casually blocked Doomsday's punch with one hand, then bloodied Doomsday with a kneejab. Kal-El has never been able to hurt Doomsday so easily, or turn away Doomsday's blows so effortlessly.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I picked up on that too, which is what really got me thinking. With Kal-L on thier side they should have been able to beat him into submition especially in the wide openness of space with the entire Green Lantern Core, Kal-El, Power Girl and all the others. And I will never understand how Superboy Prime was able to beat Kal-L to death.

The dip through the Red Star appearently didn't immediately sap them of thier powers. And both Super Boy Prime and E2 Superman are pretty much immune to this universe's Kryptonite, so they should have been able to slug it out for quite a while longer than Kal-El, who somehow managed to save the day.

Now I'm not a big DC buff and relatively new to collecting comics but even I was bummed to see E2 Supes go out like that. He never really showed the power that he had. I mean just look at what he does to the the Anti Moniter in the final battle in COIE after he knocks out pre crises E1 Superman with one blow no less. It's like they spent so much time building up Superboy Prime's power level but forgot that Kal-L should be at planet moving strength too.

[Guts/Batman]

What I have more of an issue with is: Why did Superboy overpower Superboy Prime when Superboy Prime had just pwned Black Adam and Power Girl. Two people who are much higher up on the power chain...

[Dustin Griffin]

Kal-El has never been able to hurt Doomsday so easily, or turn away Doomsday's blows so effortlessly.

Actually, Kal-El faired exactly the same against Doomsday when they met the first time.

http://www.dustygriffin.com/supesdoomsday.gif

[NotSuper]

During INFINITE CRISIS, I think Kal-L was likely more powerful than Kal-El. My reason is based on how the two Supermen fared against Doomsday in INFINITE CRISIS # 7. Kal-El, as usual, struggled against Doomsday (took a hit and went down in pain), but Kal-L just casually blocked Doomsday's punch with one hand, then bloodied Doomsday with a kneejab. Kal-El has never been able to hurt Doomsday so easily, or turn away Doomsday's blows so effortlessly.
I got the same impression myself. It also connects to the "dream" sequence the Earth-2 Superman had where he defeated Doomsday without dying. He clearly doesn't have an overhyped image about himself--he really would've survived against Doomsday.

If you look at the facts, I'd say the only advantages that Kal-El has against Kal-L are endurance and speed. In terms of strength, intelligence, experience, and fighting ability, Kal-L has him beat. And the fact that no Earth-2 kryptonite exists in the universe gives him even another advantage.

[Dustin Griffin]

What I have more of an issue with is: Why did Superboy overpower Superboy Prime when Superboy Prime had just pwned Black Adam and Power Girl. Two people who are much higher up on the power chain...

What gets me is the way our Superboy seems to have forgotten that he has faced Superboy before, twelve years ago!

http://www.dustygriffin.com/superboyz.gif

has this ever been addressed?

[Guts/Batman]

We've been asking that in Rumbles for quite some time now. All Infinite Crisis has done is redress of old storylines and recycling them...

Seeing how Infinite Crisis has been a Zero Hour redeux, I wonder if that was something that Johns just plain ignored like he did with the rest of Kon-El's, continuity when he started writing Teen Titans...

He probably didn't remember it because Hypertime doesn't exist anymore.

[Dustin Griffin]

We've been asking that in Rumbles for quite some time now. All Infinite Crisis has done is redress of old storylines and recycling them...

Seeing how Infinite Crisis has been a Zero Hour redeux, I wonder if that was something that Johns just plain ignored like he did with the rest of Kon-El's, continuity when he started writing Teen Titans...

He probably didn't remember it because Hypertime doesn't exist anymore.

you bring up a great point. I dont think Superboy was one of the heroes that was "outside time" when the timestream got rebooted in Zero Hour. He probably doesnt remember. The issue where the two Superboys fought twelve years ago was a Zero Hour crossover.

I re-read Zero Hour recently and the thing that struck me the most was that I couldnt beleive that DC put Dan Jurgens in charge of rebooting the universe. Not that he's that bad, its just that it was really indicative of 90's comics to have an artist writing the book. Which, in retrospect, can often be a mistake.

Not to pick on Dan Jurgens, but, I've also been rereading all of the Superman issues starting just before Doomsday and going up to Worlds at War and sometimes I have to just skip the Jurgens issues because he has Superman acting so out of character at times that Its hard to read.

[Buried Alien]

Actually, Kal-El faired exactly the same against Doomsday when they met the first time.

http://www.dustygriffin.com/supesdoomsday.gif

I had a feeling that panel would come up. :)

That was Doomsday's first-ever punch against a Kryptonian. Just a few panels later, Doomsday kicked Superman with enough force to send the Man of Steel hurtling across the landscape (and reflecting that he'd never been stricken so hard before). Remember: the nature of Doomsday's powers is that he grows stronger as he acclimates to some adverse condition, meaning that whatever force might be enough to give him pause during one encounter will not be effective during the next encounter. That means that during INFINITE CRISIS, Doomsday was much stronger than he had been at the time that he first encountered Kal-El and killed him in Metropolis (Doomsday had been through a great deal since that time, including several more battles against Superman).

Still, Kal-L diverted Doomsday's punch as if it were nothing, and Kal-L's counterattack was immediately able to injure Doomsday. Kal-El has never been able to injure Doomsday so casually (it took until the end of their first fight before Kal-El was able to find a way to hurt Doomsday, and it took Kal-El great effort to affect the monster in any significant way).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SuperManny]

you bring up a great point. I dont think Superboy was one of the heroes that was "outside time" when the timestream got rebooted in Zero Hour. He probably doesnt remember. The issue where the two Superboys fought twelve years ago was a Zero Hour crossover.


Mind you, they met again during Kesel's great "Hypertension" storyline in Superboy #61 or 62. I would of thought Conner's experience with Superboy-Prime was deja-vu all over again.

That was a cool fight between Superboy and Conner though, back then. Kesel made things fun to read allright.

*misses Kon-El*

[Buried Alien]

It's surprising how much of a fan favorite Kon-El/Conner has evolved into during the past few years. I remember that when the character was first introduced in the early 1990s, he wasn't that popular; many readers dismissed him as "annoying" at the time. Today, he seems to have become the most popular incarnation of Superboy - outstripping even the classic original Silver Age version.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

And I will never understand how Superboy Prime was able to beat Kal-L to death.

This one is actually pretty simple. Stripped of their Kryptonian super-stamina and invulnerability, Superboy Prime and Kal-L are basically a physically healthy 19-year old young man and a septuagenarian (at least) man. It's no stretch of the imagination to envision a healthy, fairly athletic 19-year old being able to beat a man in his 70s to death, especially if said 19-year old is in an insane, murderous rage.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Gnarl]

Especially considering that they are physically iterations of the same person.

Meaning that physically, the only difference between them is age. I can think of no case where a healthy 19-year old body isn't a better fighting vessel than the same body at 70.

I did speculate that neither Superboy Prime, nor Kal-L had precrisis power levels. However, The point of Superboy Prime was always that his powers were not powered by sunlight.

I speculated that when he entered the universe after crisis, he found himself able to process yellow sunlight in accordace with the rules of this universe. In addition to his already activated kryptonian powers.

So a unique effect of his physiology and the rules of the new universe made him a kryptonian squared. Easily mistaken for pre-crisis power levels, and explaining comments such as "you know what this yellow sun does for me."

Sadly, if that was the case, he should have retained one set of superpowers under Rao, and exterminated the supermen.

[Kara Zor El]

I think the reason why Superboy Prime easily beat Kal-L was quite simply because he is a character with no boundries. He is a character that was wiped out of comics for this reason. Basically with Superboy Prime you don't have to stick with continuity or explain things away with science etc, because he is a character who can do whatever a writer says he can do.
Superboy Prime is the big idea multiplied by imagination. If his comic stories had continued because COIE had not happened he'd have probably been the most contradictory character ever. Superboy Prime is not powered by Sunlight, he is powered by boundless imagination. That's what makes him so powerful. That was the fun of bringing him back, because he defies the logic of Earth 1 and 2. He even defies the logic of Earth Prime. You are just meant to enjoy him for what he is; wild imagination that is not held in check by continuity or reason.

[OverMaster]

I had a feeling that panel would come up. :)

That was Doomsday's first-ever punch against a Kryptonian. Just a few panels later, Doomsday kicked Superman with enough force to send the Man of Steel hurtling across the landscape (and reflecting that he'd never been stricken so hard before). Remember: the nature of Doomsday's powers is that he grows stronger as he acclimates to some adverse condition, meaning that whatever force might be enough to give him pause during one encounter will not be effective during the next encounter. That means that during INFINITE CRISIS, Doomsday was much stronger than he had been at the time that he first encountered Kal-El and killed him in Metropolis (Doomsday had been through a great deal since that time, including several more battles against Superman).

Still, Kal-L diverted Doomsday's punch as if it were nothing, and Kal-L's counterattack was immediately able to injure Doomsday. Kal-El has never been able to injure Doomsday so casually (it took until the end of their first fight before Kal-El was able to find a way to hurt Doomsday, and it took Kal-El great effort to affect the monster in any significant way).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You know, that's the thing that bothers me about Doomsday now. He's supposed to be far stronger, tougher, scarier each time, and yet each time we see him he's more of a joke and disposable threat than the last time we saw him. It's just not fair.

[aeastwic]

Inconsistencies like this happen when you are too plot-driven instead of character-driven.

Instead of letting the characters drive the plot, a little too much of IC has been deriving the plot and outcome and then fitting characters into that plot.

Kal-L and SBP's powers are way too flucuating here, as much as I like IC, they've shoe-horned a little to much.

[Buried Alien]

You know, that's the thing that bothers me about Doomsday now. He's supposed to be far stronger, tougher, scarier each time, and yet each time we see him he's more of a joke and disposable threat than the last time we saw him. It's just not fair.

That's the natural consequence of starting off as big as Doomsday (and Bane) did: his first act was to kill Superman. There's nowhere but down to go from there. After all, Doomsday can't kill Superman every time he meets him.

Even so, there are logical explanations for why, despite his increased abilities, Doomsday has not been as big a threat to Superman in subsequent encounters as he was during their first encounter. First, just as Doomsday has gotten more powerful since that first fight, so has Superman. Perhaps more importantly, Superman has gained experience in fighting Doomsday and now has a better idea of what works against Doomsday and what doesn't; hence, Superman won't put himself in a position wherein Doomsday can readily kill him.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ShaggyB]

I had a feeling that panel would come up. :)

That was Doomsday's first-ever punch against a Kryptonian. Just a few panels later, Doomsday kicked Superman with enough force to send the Man of Steel hurtling across the landscape (and reflecting that he'd never been stricken so hard before). Remember: the nature of Doomsday's powers is that he grows stronger as he acclimates to some adverse condition, meaning that whatever force might be enough to give him pause during one encounter will not be effective during the next encounter. That means that during INFINITE CRISIS, Doomsday was much stronger than he had been at the time that he first encountered Kal-El and killed him in Metropolis (Doomsday had been through a great deal since that time, including several more battles against Superman).

Still, Kal-L diverted Doomsday's punch as if it were nothing, and Kal-L's counterattack was immediately able to injure Doomsday. Kal-El has never been able to injure Doomsday so casually (it took until the end of their first fight before Kal-El was able to find a way to hurt Doomsday, and it took Kal-El great effort to affect the monster in any significant way).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

you know what that means Buried, the next time doomsday comes back only E2 supes can take him. He will have acclimated the defensive skin or strength needed to take a punch of that magnatude and no one except SBP can reproduce it in the current DCU. I wonder if they have thought of that yet

[ShaggyB]

Especially considering that they are physically iterations of the same person.

Meaning that physically, the only difference between them is age. I can think of no case where a healthy 19-year old body isn't a better fighting vessel than the same body at 70.

I did speculate that neither Superboy Prime, nor Kal-L had precrisis power levels. However, The point of Superboy Prime was always that his powers were not powered by sunlight.

I speculated that when he entered the universe after crisis, he found himself able to process yellow sunlight in accordace with the rules of this universe. In addition to his already activated kryptonian powers.

So a unique effect of his physiology and the rules of the new universe made him a kryptonian squared. Easily mistaken for pre-crisis power levels, and explaining comments such as "you know what this yellow sun does for me."

Sadly, if that was the case, he should have retained one set of superpowers under Rao, and exterminated the supermen.

I agree with this, i too was not under the impression that yellow sun light fueled his power. yet we have seen NEW EARTH red sun does strip him of it as it does all kryptonians apparently.

[Buried Alien]

you know what that means Buried, the next time doomsday comes back only E2 supes can take him. He will have acclimated the defensive skin or strength needed to take a punch of that magnatude and no one except SBP can reproduce it in the current DCU. I wonder if they have thought of that yet

If DC has plans to make a point of this (probably not), it could have far-reaching implications. Doomsday has already been able to shrug off such extreme forms of Post-COIE DCU power such as Superman's physical attacks, Darkseid's Omega Effect, energy beings such as the Radiant (who was specifically created to defeat Doomsday in the first place), and Oan and Qwardian power rings. Up until now, however, Doomsday has never had to cope with the power of a Pre-COIE Kryptonian. Now that he has, can he evolve to make himself invulnerable to it? If he does, what force in the DCU can possibly stop him?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

If he does, what force in the DCU can possibly stop him?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Busiek....

[Guts/Batman]

I did speculate that neither Superboy Prime, nor Kal-L had precrisis power levels.

Did you speculate this before or after Superboy Prime punched out of the Phantom Zone...?;) :D

[ShaggyB]

I dont know I still think the guy had a point when he said the bodies of Supes E2 and SBP were the same except depowered and 60-70 vs 19. In that case id say if the kid had skills hed probably be able to beat E2 to death as we saw.

Again though i though SBP's powers were not based on sunlight but that new earths sun just had the effect of enhancing his normal powers.

devils addvocate time though.....

If his powers are effected by yellow sunlight, then new earth which is a combo of all earths, would have all the suns combined thus giving him great power than just his prime one would. again this only works if you take into account that red sun works the same and so would kryptonite

[powerforward]

i just was never aware of the fact that the green lanterns powers decreased after the original crisis. It was well documented that superman post-crisis was much weaker (not capable of moving planets, etc...) but i did not know that crisis effected the lanterns as well.

i would have thought that a collection of green lanterns could hold their own against sb prime.

[Norrin Radd]

Speculation: If SPB "killed" Doomsday, Doomsday would return at Pre-Crisis power-levels.

[Dustin Griffin]

I had a feeling that panel would come up. :)

That was Doomsday's first-ever punch against a Kryptonian. Just a few panels later, Doomsday kicked Superman with enough force to send the Man of Steel hurtling across the landscape (and reflecting that he'd never been stricken so hard before).

Yea you're definitely right about that.

[Dustin Griffin]

Your all leaving something out though:

Doomsday does not necessarily get more powerful every time. I know thats his thing, but they clearly stated in the "Doomsday Rex" that Doomsday has lost a step since he now knows what it's like to feel pain. They implicated that he was able to kill Supes the first time because he had never felt pain and therefore never new fear before Supes "killed" him.

Thus it could possibly be surmised that Doomsday's attack on Kal-L was lessened because he was scared when he saw not one but two Supermen flying towards him.

In Doomsday Rex I believe he was made more physically powerful by the government, but he has in fact been neutered.

[Dustin Griffin]

That was Doomsday's first-ever punch against a Kryptonian. Just a few panels later, Doomsday kicked Superman with enough force to send the Man of Steel hurtling across the landscape (and reflecting that he'd never been stricken so hard before).

I also wanted to add that that was a pretty chilling moment. it kind of struck me when I re-read the Doomsday storyline.

[Crash-Man]

If he does, what force in the DCU can possibly stop him?




With prep time?

Guess who.

[Dustin Griffin]

With prep time?

Guess who.

haha!:D :D :D

[ShaggyB]

lol now thats too funny and definantly never gonna happen.

to the guy who said if sbp had killed him.... E2 supes broke his jaw off, id say if he does learn from it he will be at pre coie levels. wonder who can stop him then

[Paragon]

Speculation: If SPB "killed" Doomsday, Doomsday would return at Pre-Crisis power-levels.

I think you are right to a certain extent.
His evolutionary process is not that fast though.
In his origin he was killed many times by the same creatures (unless my memory fails me) until he ultimately out-evolved them.

He may eventually be at that level, but it would likely take quite few incarnations.
If the supermen actually killed him (I am not sure if they did) then he will be better able to deal with the attack in his next cycle, but not necessarily beyond it.
If SBP does him in then it will be harder for him to do the same the next time, but the jump would not be instantaneous.

[Paragon]

Your all leaving something out though:

Doomsday does not necessarily get more powerful every time. I know thats his thing, but they clearly stated in the "Doomsday Rex" that Doomsday has lost a step since he now knows what it's like to feel pain. They implicated that he was able to kill Supes the first time because he had never felt pain and therefore never new fear before Supes "killed" him.
.

Was his origin retconned?
It does not make sense to me that a creature can be killed, thousands of times, and never actually ever feel any pain.

[Dustin Griffin]

Was his origin retconned?
It does not make sense to me that a creature can be killed, thousands of times, and never actually ever feel any pain.

OMG you're right, I never thought about that. I think Loeb may have erred.

What came first Superman/Doomsday GN or Zero Hour?

[Green Goblin 4]

What gets me is the way our Superboy seems to have forgotten that he has faced Superboy before, twelve years ago!

http://www.dustygriffin.com/superboyz.gif

has this ever been addressed?

That was a completely different Superboy though, it was the Silver Age Superboy, not the Earth Prime Superboy, as they have different foster parents. Kon-El knows theres a plethora of Superboy's throughout hypertime or whatever, and knows the Superboy who becomes Superman, i.e. the one he met in Zero Hour, wouldn't do that, so it's not really an issue.

[OverMaster]

Was his origin retconned?
It does not make sense to me that a creature can be killed, thousands of times, and never actually ever feel any pain.

Maybe he just had so many millenia without feeling any pain he forgot how it felt, and rediscovering it was kind of a blow for him?

[Guts/Batman]

OMG you're right, I never thought about that. I think Loeb may have erred.

Loeb erred!!!

No way!!! *Is in shock*

[Dustin Griffin]

Loeb erred!!!

No way!!! *Is in shock*


I also thought Loeb erred in Batman/Superman "Public Enemies" when he had Batman telling Superman that he would look the other way if Supes wanted to kill Lex Luthor.

[Guts/Batman]

I also thought Loeb erred in Batman/Superman "Public Enemies" when he had Batman telling Superman that he would look the other way if Supes wanted to kill Lex Luthor.

I, too, find that...odd. If anyone knows Batman it is Loeb, though I...dislike Loeb's current writing style.

There was also a potential screw up when Batman from Batman Beyond showed up...

Also another thing I found curious was that Superman didn't comment on being stuff on the Source Wall. If only for a short time, that's a fairly major life development.