From Kal-L's perspective...

[Buried Alien]

During INFINITE CRISIS, Kal-L both fought against and alongside his doppelganger, Kal-El. From Kal-L's perspective, was this Kal-El the same Kal-El that he fought alongside with during the Crisis On Infinite Earths (the one whose cousin Supergirl died at the hands of the Anti-Monitor), or did Kal-L believe that this Kal-El was a completely different individual from the Kal-El he had known prior to the first Crisis?

It's a shame that during INFINITE CRISIS, the two Supermen did not have more time to talk to each other.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NotSuper]

It's a shame that during INFINITE CRISIS, the two Supermen did not have more time to talk to each other.
That's one of the reasons the series needed to be longer.

[Reggie Swats]

Yes, there is NO ACCEPTABLE REASON why this series was not 12 issues long. We got shortchanged... I mean, we'd still be in the middle of the action right now if it was done in the traditional 12-issue Crisis format.

[Rylon]

Yes, there is NO ACCEPTABLE REASON why this series was not 12 issues long. We got shortchanged... I mean, we'd still be in the middle of the action right now if it was done in the traditional 12-issue Crisis format.One is a tradition?

[aeastwic]

Weren't the original ones 22 pages each and this one was 32 pages each?

22 x 12 = 264

32 x 7 = 224

Not much difference, and COIE wasn't exactly decompressed story-telling, they could have made that 20 issues. Now if IC 1 and 2 weren't so slow getting started....

Basically, for everything in there, this could have been almost 1000 pages. A lot of stuff happened in both.

[marshal99]

You forget that it also has 4 mini series going on at the same time - day of vengeance , OMAC project , villains united & Rahn-thanagar war tied into IC.

All of them should be retitled "gimme your money now".

RIP Multiverse
http://www.yourmomsbasement.com/images/20Q_1/20Q_10-12-05_05.jpg

[Shellhead]

You forget that it also has 4 mini series going on at the same time - day of vengeance , OMAC project , villains united & Rahn-thanagar war tied into IC.

All of them should be retitled "gimme your money now".

RIP Multiverse
http://www.yourmomsbasement.com/images/20Q_1/20Q_10-12-05_05.jpg

DC killed their Multiverse 20 years ago. This recent Infinite Crisis just dug the body up, molested it a bit, and then tossed it back in the coffin.

[Kara Zor El]

During INFINITE CRISIS, Kal-L both fought against and alongside his doppelganger, Kal-El. From Kal-L's perspective, was this Kal-El the same Kal-El that he fought alongside with during the Crisis On Infinite Earths (the one whose cousin Supergirl died at the hands of the Anti-Monitor), or did Kal-L believe that this Kal-El was a completely different individual from the Kal-El he had known prior to the first Crisis?

It's a shame that during INFINITE CRISIS, the two Supermen did not have more time to talk to each other.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It wasn't the same kal-El, they had different back stories. Simmilar though.

[lucasb]

Well, it IS the same Superman--and it isn't. Kind of a philosophical question, like the riddle of "Grandfather's Axe".

You've probably heard that one. Is the axe hanging on the wall out in the woodshed still the SAME axe that your grandfather bought from Sears fifty years ago? It's been used continuously since then, first by granddad, then by your father, and lately by you. So, you could say it's the same--but then, the handle's been replaced three times over the years, and the head twice. So is it still the same axe, or a different one? Or both at once?

Is it still the same Superman, even though his origin's been changed twice?

Depends on your point of view.

[Buried Alien]

During INFINITE CRISIS, Kal-L certainly treated Kal-El as a new acquaintance rather than an old friend, and while their fight caused each of the two Supermen to gain insight into the other's lives, Kal-El did not see any past experiences that the Pre-COIE Earth-One Silver Age Kal-El had shared with Kal-L.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[aeastwic]

I think the fact that Superman was revamped after Crisis, makes him a composite Superman and the E1 Superman from COIE is a part of DCU Superman, but "forgotten" or folded into him.

From Kal-El's perspective there was never a multi-verse Crisis, only a single universe Crisis, so there wasn't another Superman to be remembered....even though it DID happen, just got rebooted.

[shyguy]

No matter what DC's stance on the matter is, the reboot Superman clearly isn't Earth 1 Superman in any meaningful way (they're at least as different from each other as Earth 1 and Earth 2 Superman were), so I would imagine that Kal-L saw New Earth Superman as a totally different person, especially since he presumably saw his origins, his Krypton, etc.

[PatrickG]

Well, Post-Crisis Superman does have somewhere over a hundred identical or virtually identical Earth-1 adventures in spite of the reboot.

And then you run into a trickier question...

Is post-Crisis Batman the Earth-1 Batman?

Is post-Crisis Nightwing the Earth-1 Nightwing?

[Buried Alien]

Is post-Crisis Batman the Earth-1 Batman?

Is post-Crisis Nightwing the Earth-1 Nightwing?

I would say probably not, especially in the case of Dick Grayson (Robin/Nightwing). He had two very distinct transitions from Robin to Nightwing. Pre-COIE, it was very amicable for himself, for Batman, and for Jason Todd. Post-COIE, it was very bitter and conflicted.

Batman himself is trickier, and is primarily defined by his relationships with Dick Grayson and Jason Todd. The impression I get, however, is that while the Pre-COIE Earth-One Batman had a period of several years (when Dick was Robin) that he was fairly happy with his life, the Post-COIE Batman never had such a period. He was dark and brooding from Day One.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Evan Lanctot]

Batman didn't remember Kal-L either, so no, he is NOT the Earth-1 Batman.

[Kara Zor El]

Well, it IS the same Superman--and it isn't. Kind of a philosophical question, like the riddle of "Grandfather's Axe".

You've probably heard that one. Is the axe hanging on the wall out in the woodshed still the SAME axe that your grandfather bought from Sears fifty years ago? It's been used continuously since then, first by granddad, then by your father, and lately by you. So, you could say it's the same--but then, the handle's been replaced three times over the years, and the head twice. So is it still the same axe, or a different one? Or both at once?

Is it still the same Superman, even though his origin's been changed twice?

Depends on your point of view.

I'd say it's not the same axe. It's has bits of the same axe but is not the same, they are not same. The grain on the handle would have a totaly different pattern. also it'd be from a different tree. (probably) maybe different species of tree.
The charcater of the axe has changed too.
However it is more like a person who has lost limbs etc and had artificial replacements. Same person definately as in soul. But a different person physically if you could place them together.
But didn't the character of Superman change after COIE? The Clark Kent before, was a bungling idiot. That's how he presented himself. He had no cool factor but post CIOE Clark, wears designer suits and is cool.

[lucasb]

However it is more like a person who has lost limbs etc and had artificial replacements. Same person definately as in soul. But a different person physically if you could place them together.


Scientists say that, over a period of approximately seven years, every single atom in your body gets replaced by another.

So you are literally not the person you were seven years ago, and not the person you will be seven years from now.

But your soul remains constant. At least that's what I believe, and I believe that present-day Superman has the same soul as Pre-Crisis Earth-One Superman. He may have a different set of memories, and his origin has been retroactively changed somewhat, but I say that he is still, in his heart, where it counts, the same guy.

[PatrickG]

I used to argue that they were all the same, by and large. I do that in part to combat my own frustration with the differences and in part because I support creators who go for "unified" takes.

However, I think a better analogy is that each subsequent version has the previous versions somewhere "inside" them and occasionally the older versions "take the wheel" to remind us they're in the mix.

Most people who argue that the current Superman is not the Earth-1 model tend to argue that the Earth-1 model is the original.

While I acknowledge that the Earth-2 model isn't EXACTLY the Golden Age version, the Earth-1 model isn't either. The Earth-2 model is certainly a manifestation of those early stories.

But the Earth-1 model DID transition out of that early Superman. In a sense, he had that same guy inside him. He built off the original and had the original's spirit in him.

And in spite of the initially abrupt transition, I think the same is true of the current Superman's relationship with the Earth-1 model as Earth-1 tidbits have trickled back in.

In the end, I think it's like a bed with different sheets. Sometimes, a creator wets the bed and when that happens, the sheets get changed. Sometimes, the bed is pretty ugly. But that's the sheets. The bed, the box springs, the mattress... They wind up being the same even when people try to make it look like a new bed.

A blue electric blanket can disguise a bed made in 1938... But it's the same bed.

[The Joker]

I would think that Kal-L viewed the Post-Crisis Superman as being different than the Earth-1 Superman. In IC #2, Kal-L mentions to Power Girl that they watched the "new" earth grow, and watched the post-crisis versions appear and there was much hope. But then things started to make a turn for the worse. I'm sure Kal-L viewed the Post-Crisis Superman as being similar to the Earth-1 version, sure. But I have to believe he was well aware that the Post-Crisis Kal-El was most certainly not the Superman he knew before.