Other than Chuck Dixon, who would be a good writer for Nightwing?

[OverMaster]

I mean, there must be someone out there fitting for the role, apart from Dixon.

Gail Simone?

Karl Kesel?

Ed Brubaker?

John Francis Moore?

Kelley Puckett?

Anyone else?

[OverMaster]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say it: Thread inspired by Super Sonic. ;)

[Super Sonic]

Thank you. =P

Anyway, I'd love to see Gail take a whack at him, or even Geoff Johns.

Bru would be pretty awesome, but that's not likely for a while.

[Corrina]

I thought John Francis Moore did a great job on the underrated Batman Family miniseries. And of the people listed, maybe he's the mostly likely because of the work the others have.

[Damo]

Of course this thread presumes that we all think Chuck Dixon is a good writer...

<_<

Ahem. Give Ty Templeton the book, sit back, and read the best Nightwing you've seen in years.

[The Shadow]

Karl Kesel is a vastly underrated writer... he'd be great.

Dan Slott would bring a fun, quirky sense of humour with plenty of heroics.

Mark Waid is a phenominal writer. I loved his Captain America and think he would do well on Nightwing.

Andersen Gabrych was great on Batgirl and i think he writes a great solo hero

Gail Simone... but only if she stayed on BoP! :D

[Super Sonic]

Karl Kesel is a vastly underrated writer... he'd be great.

Dan Slott would bring a fun, quirky sense of humour with plenty of heroics.

Mark Waid is a phenominal writer. I loved his Captain America and think he would do well on Nightwing.

Andersen Gabrych was great on Batgirl and i think he writes a great solo hero

Gail Simone... but only if she stayed on BoP! :D


Dan Slott is a very good pic IMO, damn these exclusives. :D

[Kevinroc]

I mean, there must be someone out there fitting for the role, apart from Dixon.

Gail Simone?

Good choice. Hopefully she wouldn't have to leave another title.

Karl Kesel?

Vastly underrated writer.

Ed Brubaker?

Marvel exclusive. Not gonna happen. His Captain America and Daredevil runs are incredible, though. If that means anything.

John Francis Moore?

Not that famaliar with his work.

Kelley Puckett?

Not famaliar with Puckett's work.

Anyone else?

On the Marvel exclusive front, Bendis. But he's Marvel exclusive.

Kurt Busiek. He's at DC.

Grant Morrison. But that should go without saying.

I'll second the Mark Waid vote but he might be busy with 52, Legion and everything else on his plate.

Dwayne McDuffie. He's coming back to comics (he's writing Beyond for Marvel but he isn't under an exclusive contract).

[Mister Intensity]

Karl Kesel is a vastly underrated writer... he'd be great.

Dan Slott would bring a fun, quirky sense of humour with plenty of heroics.

Mark Waid is a phenominal writer. I loved his Captain America and think he would do well on Nightwing.

Andersen Gabrych was great on Batgirl and i think he writes a great solo hero

Gail Simone... but only if she stayed on BoP! :D

I like that list. I would buy a Nightwing title written by any of them (which is more than I would say for Chuck Dixon). Kesel's style for Daredevil would probably fit Nightwing more than Daredevil. A few more for the list, Marv Wolfman, Steve Englehart, Matt Wagner, and Fabian Nicezena.

Mister Intensity

[Mia]

Who would I like? Fabian Nicienza, excellent writter and someone who hasn't been shy about his respect of the character. Kelley Puckett is also great.

[DubipR]

Pretty much the writers of the old Gotham Adventures comics: Ty Templeton, Terry Beatty, Kelley Puckett, and J. Torres.

Anderson Gabrych would be a great choice. Not only did he write one of the better Detective runs (pre-War Crimes in which he's not responsible for...blame the eds for that mess), he made Batgirl readible.

Karl Kesel is another fine choice. Robert Kirkman would be spiffy as well.

[Super Sonic]

Pretty much the writers of the old Gotham Adventures comics: Ty Templeton, Terry Beatty, Kelley Puckett, and J. Torres.

Anderson Gabrych would be a great choice. Not only did he write one of the better Detective runs (pre-War Crimes in which he's not responsible for...blame the eds for that mess), he made Batgirl readible.

Karl Kesel is another fine choice. Robert Kirkman would be spiffy as well.


....no Grant Morrison? =P

[Agentum]

What have Chuck Dixon written that is really good?
He wrote Moon knight so badly that it was painful:)

[Dr. Killtrocity]

I mean, there must be someone out there fitting for the role, apart from Dixon.

Gail Simone?

Karl Kesel?

Ed Brubaker?

John Francis Moore?

Kelley Puckett?

Anyone else?

Don't plan on Brubaker taking any DC jobs for a while. Right now that would be like Geoff Johns writing Spider-Man.

[Rylon]

We've got some great sugestions here, but I'm suprised no one's mentioned Marv Wolfman. He'd do a great job.

[Mia]

Anderson Gabrych would be a great choice. Not only did he write one of the better Detective runs (pre-War Crimes in which he's not responsible for...blame the eds for that mess), he made Batgirl readible.




Dear God no! He's a boring writer and I hated his version of Batman. Nothing but an angry man--one of the authors behind the hated 'Batdick'. And I dropped Batgirl as soon as I heard he was taking over. No keep him away from Nightwing. Please

What have Chuck Dixon written that is really good?
He wrote Moon knight so badly that it was painful:)

Guess you don't know. Chuck Dixon is the reason why Nightwing has such a huge following. I would never have followed Nightwing under the pen of Marv Wolfman. I liked Chuck's Nightwing, I actually admired and could relate to the character.


We've got some great sugestions here, but I'm suprised no one's mentioned Marv Wolfman. He'd do a great job.

I wrote him years ago, and he responded that he would love to write Nightwing again. However I got the impression that he was on the outs with DC. I wasn't too crazy about his NW during Titans. That Dick Grayson was way too perfect for my tastes. Almost like reading Superman without powers.

[MicroZone]

Dan Slott is a very good pic IMO, damn these exclusives. :D

if Marvel keeps ignoring his talent and cancelling every title he works on, he'll be free soon enough.

[Young Avenger]

Marv Wolfman

[literally exaggerated]

Alan Moore would be fantastic, because he's fantastic on virtually everything.

[Gingold]

I'd love to see Marv Wolfman write Nightwing. He's the only writer who ever really made the character work. Dixon's Nightwing was Batman-lite.

[Mia]

I'd love to see Marv Wolfman write Nightwing. He's the only writer who ever really made the character work. Dixon's Nightwing was Batman-lite.


Actually Dixon's NW was more of a confident Spider-man than anything else.

[Rylon]

Almost like reading Superman without powers.Given that I enjoyed Marv's run on AOS, you can see why that might appeal to me...

...But I love Dixon's writting. I've read alot of his Robin stuff, from the first mini-series to way into ongoing. Dixon is the only reason I picked-up a batbook in the 90's.

[soda]

I wrote him years ago, and he responded that he would love to write Nightwing again. However I got the impression that he was on the outs with DC. I wasn't too crazy about his NW during Titans. That Dick Grayson was way too perfect for my tastes. Almost like reading Superman without powers.

I always thought that Wolfman's run on the teen titans in the 80s was the definitive Nightwing. I'll agree that Nightwing was "close to perfect" in those books, but frankly, that's how I like him :) Not to belabor the point, but you look over at Marvel, and Captain America has always been "close to perfect", there are two sides to every Marvel U conflict: there's Captain America's side, and there's the wrong side, and that's the way it's been for 65 years. One of the ways in which the DCU is actually more morally complicated than the marvel U is that the DCU doesn't have a "moral anchor", Superman is close, but IC showed us why he isn't Captain America.

Nightwing is the best candidate to be that guy. Remember IC #5? Right after Nightwing made the speech in Titans Tower that nobody heard? Superboy shows up, and looks at Dick and basically asks "okay, now what do we do?" Nightwing never flinches, it may be the end of the world, but damn it, he's going to get his gear, he's going to get his troops together, he's going to go to the center of the storm, and if he dies, he's going to kick someone in the face first. If you ask me, that's exactly how Captain America reacts, that's what a super-hero is.

You want to know what comic book heroism is, to me? Comic book heroism is Batman in the series finale of JLU. It's knowing you have no chance in hell of actually doing anything to help the situation, knowing you're probably dead, but going in anyway. Darkseid is a God, you're just a dude with a mask and a few cool toys, but as Superman said "as long as that man can draw a breath, he won't stop trying." Yeah, compared to Darkseid, Batman is an insect, but even Darkseid had to admit that he was "impressed" with his sheer determination. That's Dick Grayson, in Infinite Crisis, compared to Alexander Luthor, and Superboy Prime, and all the cosmic problems going on, Dick Grayson is just a dude with a mask and a few cool toys, doesn't matter, won't stop him from trying. That's what even Alexander Luthor had to admit he admired in IC #3, that's why Kal-L and Alexander Luthor considered Dick Grayson to be a saint in a world of sinners.

That's the way Nightwing should be written, that's what I want every future Nightwing writer to always keep in mind. This crap that we're getting right now from Jones is so far off the mark, it's not even funny. I think most of the people that have been brought up would be good upgrades compared to what we have right now, I'd love to see Wolfmann or Simone take a crack, I'd love to get Dan slotts on this title, bring him over the DC, and give him Nightwing, and give him a few other cool titles, the man is a gifted writer. I'd love to see the guy I quote in my sig get a shot. The current stream of bad writing on Nightwing is a travesty. DC comics are as good now as they have ever been, but Nightwing is as far in the crapper now as he has ever been. It's a testament to the enduring popularity of the character that runs by Grayson and Jones, two abysmally bad writers, haven't yet caused this book's cancellation. Most other characters? The book would have been axed already.

[Mister Intensity]

We've got some great sugestions here, but I'm suprised no one's mentioned Marv Wolfman. He'd do a great job.

I said Marv Wolfman. :D

Mister Intensity

[Captain Jim]

What have Chuck Dixon written that is really good?


At DC? Nightwing, Robin, Detective, Birds of Prey.

[Sizzle]

Dixon had a great run of Robin and Nightwing. I thought his characteriztion of Nightwing before the series was less then flattering to the character though.

[Mia]

I always thought that Wolfman's run on the teen titans in the 80s was the definitive Nightwing. I'll agree that Nightwing was "close to perfect" in those books, but frankly, that's how I like him :) Not to belabor the point, but you look over at Marvel, and Captain America has always been "close to perfect", there are two sides to every Marvel U conflict: there's Captain America's side, and there's the wrong side, and that's the way it's been for 65 years. One of the ways in which the DCU is actually more morally complicated than the marvel U is that the DCU doesn't have a "moral anchor", Superman is close, but IC showed us why he isn't Captain America. .

Yes, I know I've had several debates with fans of Nightwing from his Titans days. :) . And I just don't find that character interesting. Like reading an amped up version of 'Richie Cunningham' or 'Wally Cleaver.' Just way too perfect for my tastes. And I hate perfect characters. The notion like that has all those abilties, without being a meta, is silly. And just to add I don't like Batman in the JLA either, I just ignore that characterisation.


I liked the way that Dixon wrote Nightwing, he was a tremendous athelete and a skilled fighter. Intelligent without being 'Mr. Smarty pants'. He had a good heart, and was willing to give you a chance. However if you took advantage of that he wouldn't hesitate to bury boot up your a__. He was confident without being a jerk. Masculine without the machismo He believed in doing the right thing not out of self-righteousness or out of guilt. Because it's the right thing to do. It's when I hear people calling Nightwing, Batman-lite. That I laugh. Nightwing is the anti-thesis of Batman. Nightwings motives are pure. Whereas Batman's are shadded with grey.

[Mia]

...But I love Dixon's writting. I've read alot of his Robin stuff, from the first mini-series to way into ongoing. Dixon is the only reason I picked-up a batbook in the 90's.


Dixon's Nightwing is the reason I started reading DC comics. In fact he defined Catwoman, Robin, Nightwing and Huntress for me. When I think of what makes those characters who they are. It's always been primarily Chuck's writing them. I really learned to love and respect them all under his pen.

[colossus34]

Dixon's Nightwing is the reason I started reading DC comics. In fact he defined Catwoman, Robin, Nightwing and Huntress for me. When I think of what makes those characters who they are. It's always been primarily Chuck's writing them. I really learned to love and respect them all under his pen.

I am one of those who disagrees with you. Chuck's Nightwing was mediocre at best, he seemed to never accomplish much and Dixon was the one who turned Nightwing into Bat-light in everyone's eyes. While I personally agree that it was more SpideyDark than anything else I think its becuase Devin and Jones are sooo terribly bad that people appreciate Dixon's mediocirty more now.

On th other hand, in Titan's Wolfman's Nightwing was a trully unique and interesting character. Someone who was fearless, suave, confident, but not afraid to show his emotions for those he cared for(starfire). It often cost him deerly but he was never one to giveup. He was also a swashbuckling adventurer, brilliant detective and peerless fighter to boot. No "Knocked in the back of the head" Chuck Dixon writing and no angsty Devin "I need Batman's approval" moments.

Wolfman's Nightwing was DC's preimer leader, moral center and a man who was as far from Batman's shadow as he can get. I think Fabien is someone who actually understands what makes Grayson unique, he'd be able to pull off an incredible run on Nightwing. Maybe turn Nightwing into a Ethan Hunt like character or more akin to his Titan days while still being a solo book.

[Agentum]

At DC? Nightwing, Robin, Detective, Birds of Prey.
Nothing special then, no classics or high points? maybe hes just one of those more average writers i guess.
I have read som early Nightwing and it was ok, but i read some recently that was just absolutly trash but that was not by Dixon.

And i think the question about Wolfman or Dixon is when you started read comics, if you started in middle 90s or whenever Nightwing got his own book it must seem like ages since Wolfman "created" him in New Teen Titans, to me Wolfmans NTT is a classic and this Nightwing is not, not that i say that it is bad comics, but it's nothing special to me.

[Babylon23]

I'd love to see Marv Wolfman writing Nightwing again. After his excellent work on the IC special, he's shown that he's still a great writer. Also, his Nightwing characterisation is the one that appeals to me the most. Check out the recent issue of Teen Titans that Wolfman co-wrote. It's clear that he still knows how to handle Nightwing.

[The Xenos]

Funny how we still got debates over Dixon. I loved his Nightwing. It was an amazing comic for me. What it a masterpiece? I don't know, I think it was a plain damn good action comic. Dixon did what he set out to do. Dixon and McDaniel were just an amazing combination. It wasn't Morrison or Moore or anything too high art, but it was a damn good book.

I don't get the Bat-man lite comments. I never saw it that way. To me the whole book was about Dick stepping away from the shadow of the Bat in his own book and city.

I don't quite get Spider-man dark, save for his quipiness with villians. As I've said before, if anything is Spider-man dark, it's Bruce Jones's run now. Let's see, swinging around NYC with line shooters from his arms, dating a redhead in the New York fashion industry, fighting a doppleganger of himself. How is any of that Nightwing? Also a major part of the story is Nightwing being confused with a murderer. Why?!

As I've posted a number of times before, I also find funny that even the Boston Phoenix gave a thumbs down to Jones's One Year Later:

http://www.thephoenix.com/article_ektid10054.aspx

Nightwing - There are two Nightwings running around, one a murderous imposter. Insultingly stupid, violent, and, if you haven’t been following the “Red Hood” story line in Batman, confounding.

A big part of the problem is that comics writers have become morbidly fearful of exposition. The bare minimum a reader has a right to expect is that a “starting point” will explain who the characters are, but a lot of the OYL stories fail that test miserably. Someone picking up Nightwing for the first time with the OYL issue (#118, for instance) should be able to know that the character used to be Batman’s sidekick, Robin, and that when last we saw him he’d just gotten engaged to Barbara Gordon, the former Batgirl. To understand the plot, it’s also crucial to know that Jason Todd, another Robin who died in the line of duty, has come back to life to seek bloody revenge (in an interminable story line in Batman).

None of that is so much as mentioned in Bruce Jones’s dull, grisly script, although Jason has gotten a tough-guy accent (“sometin’ ” for “something”), seemingly out of nowhere.

As for writers other than Dixon, I'd love to see Simone take over. Birds of Prey has always been a sister book to Nightwing to me, so it makes sense. Sadly over the years they now seem like two different speices alien to each other.

Kirkman would be awesome. Or Brian K Vaughn. Though that's mainly because they're two favorite writers. Dunno if they'd be suited to Nightwing. Though certainly Kirkman knows how to right decent superheros not mired in grit and angst (even if there is grit and angst in the story). I'd also say the same of Dan Slott. I know I had to start pulling his Thing thanks to reccomendations others who have.

[Cayman]

Perhaps Marc Andreyko.

Cay

[Steel Spider]

Gail Simone on the book would rock (but only if she continued working on BoP).

[Jaye]

At DC? Nightwing, Robin, Detective, Birds of Prey.

Thank you for leaving Green Arrow off.

*little hearts*

[Nick MB]

Dixon's Nightwing is one of the two DC titles I've ever followed. Although I did drop it when he was overpowered by bad art.
I'd quite like to see someone like Brubaker or Bendis take a crack at him. Annoyingly, Marvel have most of the good 'street level' writers locked into exclusives. Dan Slott, although a good writer, doesn't quite strike me as right for Nightwing. Simone could work, and I'd be vaguely interested to see a Rucka Nightwing.

[Mia]

I am one of those who disagrees with you. Chuck's Nightwing was mediocre at best, he seemed to never accomplish much
..


I've heard this complaint countless times. Mostly coming from people who seem to need their stories wrapped up neatly in every single arc. That's not and never was Dixon's style. He's from the 'old school' type of storytelling. Where threads are left open to be addressed later. Even Gail Simone uses it. As does Fabian Nicienza. I like it because it makes me think and actually encourages me to come back each month for more.




and Dixon was the one who turned Nightwing into Bat-light in everyone's eyes. While I personally agree that it was more SpideyDark than anything else I think its becuase Devin and Jones are sooo terribly bad that people appreciate Dixon's mediocirty more now..

I don't think so. If that were the case then sales would not have dropped so fast when Devin Grayson came on board.


I also know of people who who hated Chucks run on the book. And still hate Chuck's run on the book, even if they hate Jones and Devin Grayson run even more. Was Dixon's run on NW a masterpiece of English Literature? Of course not. But at least he gave me a character I could admire and relate to.



On th other hand, in Titan's Wolfman's Nightwing was a trully unique and interesting character. Someone who was fearless, suave, confident, ...

Pardon the sacriligiousness. But Wolfman practically wrote Nightwing as the second comming of Jesus. The character was so perfect it wasn't funny. He had him rescuing his team and his girlfriend from Aliens. Give me a break!Wolfman's Nightwing was Superman without powers. Dixon's Nightwing was Spider-man with more confidence and a bit of an edge. Someone I can actually relate to.



but not afraid to show his emotions for those he cared for(starfire). It often cost him deerly but he was never one to giveup. He was also a swashbuckling adventurer, brilliant detective and peerless fighter to boot. No "Knocked in the back of the head" Chuck Dixon writing and no angsty Devin "I need Batman's approval" moments...



One of the reasons I have a problem with Wolfman's interpretation of Nightwing is the emotional outbursts he had Dick exhibiting. Yes Dixon's NW lost his temper. But he didn't have him throwing hissy fits like a bitchy woman suffering from PMS the way that Wolfman did. Very unflattering.





Wolfman's Nightwing was DC's preimer leader, moral center and a man who was as far from Batman's shadow as he can get. I think Fabien is someone who actually understands what makes Grayson unique, he'd be able to pull off an incredible run on Nightwing. Maybe turn Nightwing into a Ethan Hunt like character or more akin to his Titan days while still being a solo book.

So was Dixon's. In fact unless Batman showed up I actually forgot that Nightwing was connected to the Batverse. As for the Hunt reference. Dixon's Nightwing was essentially a Tom Cruise character. Ethan Hunt, Maverick, Anderton, Jerry MaGuire all rolled into one.

[Mia]

Nothing special then, no classics or high points? maybe hes just one of those more average writers i guess.
.

Well I guess it all comes down to what you call 'classic' or 'highpoints'.

[Agentum]

Well New Teen Titans V1 is a classic, most writers have high points, like Kindom Come for Waid and so on.

What is Dixons really good work?

I'm not saying he has not done any good work, i just don't know of it.:)

[Mia]

Well New Teen Titans V1 is a classic, most writers have high points, like Kindom Come for Waid and so on.

What is Dixons really good work?

I'm not saying he has not done any good work, i just don't know of it.:)


Like I said above. It all depends on what your own interpretation of a classic is.

Many people would say that his run on Nightwing was a classic others wouldn't.

As the old saying goes. One man's meat is another man's poison.

[fenixrisingxl]

Anyone think Dan Jurgens could do a good job? I wouldn't mind seeing his take, maybe in a three-issue arc or separate mini, if necessary.
I haven't seen Dan get much love on these boards, but I actually enjoyed the whole 'Death of Superman' through 'Return of Superman' arc.

[titanfan]

Dixon's Nightwing is the reason I started reading DC comics. In fact he defined Catwoman, Robin, Nightwing and Huntress for me. When I think of what makes those characters who they are. It's always been primarily Chuck's writing them. I really learned to love and respect them all under his pen.

To a lot of people, Dixon's Nightwing is the definitive Nightwing. Which is fine, Dixon is a good writer and introduced him to a legion of new fans. But to a lot of us who followed Nightwing before Dixon came aboard--his interpretation of the character was as wrong as this Nightwing OYL must be to everyone. I will concede that his Nightwing run was still the best though. Grayson (to me) had a more accurate interpretation of the Nightwing character--but her stories didn't seem to pack that "oomph".

Marv Wolfman is definitely the one who I would most like to see take over Nightwing. I agree that Dan Jurgens or Karl Kesel would do a great job. I think Geoff Johns could deliver a great Nightwing book if he wanted to.

[Super Sonic]

Well according to LITG today that Geoff Johns is interested in writing Nightwing, and I hope he does, not only could it be good, but it could get great sales and really make Nightwing one of the big boys.

[Nick Kal]

Geoff Johns on Nightwing would be a dream come true.

[Super Sonic]

Geoff Johns on Nightwing would be a dream come true.

Well, hopefully it'll happen now. I mean he can basically be on whatever title he wants, right?

[soda]

Johns on Nightwing would totally rock. I dropped Nightwing after the second OYL book absolutely disgusted me, but if DC announced that Johns was taking over Nightwing, that would instantly move that title onto second place on my "most anticipated titles list" (sorry, guys, but Paul Dini Batman is still the unquestioned #1), and Nightwing would be back on my pull list in a heartbeat. Dan Didio said in a recent interview that Booster Gold and Nightwing were the two big DC characters to keep an eye on in the coming year, maybe this is what he meant by that?

So, thus far, it would appear that most of us pretty much agree that the recent runs on Nightwing have been crap. We might argue about the Dixon and Wolfman runs, but IMHO, both of those guys did a better job with Nightwing than what's coming out right now.

[EDmanwalking]

Johns on Nightwing would totally rock. When I heard him say that he was interested in the book at the DC panel, my eyes widened. I met him at the Bristol convention numerous times, and at the bar on Saturday night whilst drinking I said to him "Hey, Geoff...Geoff Johns on Nightwing, let's see it happen" and he said "Nah man, they'd never give it to me". I think they want Geoff probably to stick to the bigger titles, but if he ever got a run on Nightwing that would totally be the book I'd look forward to every month. Bruce Jones has let me down a little, I was getting a bit too psyched for OYL Nightwing.

[Captain Jim]

Personally, I don't see the need to choose between Wolfman and Dixon relative to their contribution to the character; I liked them both.

Wolfman was without a doubt the one who popularized the character to the point that he could carry his own book. I remember reading at the time that Nightwing was consistently winning the polls for "best DC character who doesn't have his own book." Wolfman certainly gets the credit for bringing him to that point. But Dixon is the one who gave him a setting and supporting cast of his own and made him work as his own person. These "Batman-lite" comments are ludicrous. As Mia stated, Dixon's Nightwing was nothing like Batman. I can't believe that people making these comments ever actually read the books. Nightwing became an excellent selling book under Dixon's tenure, so much so that it was one of the very few DC titles that was regularly being released in tpb edition several years back.

I've never claimed that Dixon produces classics. His Nightwing stories were certainly not of Watchmen caliber. Personally, I've always appreciated his writing because it's good, solid entertainment, consistently month after month. Btw, take a look at his tenure on Robin, Nightwing and BOP. It's one thing for so-called "super-stars" to come in with a lot of hoopla, produce a hot-selling arc or two and then move on to the next title. But it takes a real craftsman who can consistently produce quality material on the same title year after year.

Having said that, I think one of my favorite NW tales was the "Search for Oracle" storyline that went back and forth in NW & BOP for about 6-issues. Outstanding story.

I don't really think the Wolfman/ Dixon preference (which I don't have anyway, appreciating both) has anything to do when you started reading the character. In my case that was the 1950's.

[Agentum]

I think it has a lot to do with when you stated reading comics, if you started in the 90s or inthe 80s, but in the 50s you can of course see this in a more non nostalgic way, but i guess you may have 50-60s comics that you think is the best, that i never can understand the value of.

I don't even kno of this Dixon more than that he wrote MK badly.

[Mia]

Personally, I've always appreciated his writing because it's good, solid entertainment, consistently month after month. Btw, take a look at his tenure on Robin, Nightwing and BOP. It's one thing for so-called "super-stars" to come in with a lot of hoopla, produce a hot-selling arc or two and then move on to the next title. But it takes a real craftsman who can consistently produce quality material on the same title year after year.

Having said that, I think one of my favorite NW tales was the "Search for Oracle" storyline that went back and forth in NW & BOP for about 6-issues. Outstanding story.



Beautifully put!

I never thought of it that way before. But you're right. It does take some talent to sustain a book as long as Dixon has. One thing I love about Dixon is that he's a comic book writer. He has never pretended to be anything else. His books don't pretend to be high brow literature or have pretentions to intellectuallism. They are just solid entertainment...which by the way can be enjoyed again and again.

[Damo]

Ever run into anyone that hated Dixon's run and liked Devin's? Yeah, Devin's fell flat on its face, but it was trying to be something great. Dixon aimed at meh and got meh. A good while back I was a fan of his, then, looking over his work, I realized that a lot of his "good" stuff was essentially just keeping the status quo, or slightly altering it, moving a character to a new location or whatnot. Had any characters he himself had created done anything for me? No, not a one. And of his bad works, what did I think of them? Well some of them were pretty durn stinky. He's a solid enough writer month to month, with rare drops in quality (but boy, when they drop...), but I don't think he's ever achieved a moment of true greatness.

So I decided his next work would be the "deciding vote" for me, and he put out the reprehensible "Richard Dragon".

I'd rather given an older, wiser, more experienced Devin Grayson another crack on the book a few years from now than see Dixon on it again.

[Mia]

I totally disagree. She ruined and twisted the character of Nightwing from who he was in order to fit the story she wanted to tell.

What Devin Grayson did was essentially fan fic.

[Damo]

What Devin Grayson did was essentially fan fic.

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's a real pet peeve with me. How was it fan fic? She's a fan, she wrote fiction, yeah. But she was paid, by DC Comics, to write the book. It's canon material, part of his history, and it's clearly going to have an effect on the character for quite some time to come. I can't see how this could be considered fan fic. I may disagree with Dixon's take on Richard Dragon... may consider it to be utter trash that threw out a character that had been extablished about 30 years in favor of a Jean Claude Van Damme clone. But I would never consider it fan fiction. Where are people getting this "fan fic" insult from? Different people writing the books you like are going to have different takes on the character. That's life. And if you want to call something bad writing, okay. I may disagree with you, but okay. But when people start saying Devin wrote "fan fiction", my blood starts to boil. Even schwarbage like the last few Nightwing issues shouldn't be called fan fic. Utterly attrocious writing that nobody should ever have gotten paid for, sure, but not fan fic.

(And as long as I'm ranting on Devin's run, Tarantula was neither a Mary Sue nobody that remembers what that term actually means any more?] nor a self-insert.)

[DLH1970]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that's a real pet peeve with me. How was it fan fic? She's a fan, she wrote fiction, yeah. But she was paid, by DC Comics, to write the book. It's canon material, part of his history, and it's clearly going to have an effect on the character for quite some time to come. I can't see how this could be considered fan fic. I may disagree with Dixon's take on Richard Dragon... may consider it to be utter trash that threw out a character that had been extablished about 30 years in favor of a Jean Claude Van Damme clone. But I would never consider it fan fiction. Where are people getting this "fan fic" insult from? Different people writing the books you like are going to have different takes on the character. That's life. And if you want to call something bad writing, okay. I may disagree with you, but okay. But when people start saying Devin wrote "fan fiction", my blood starts to boil. Even schwarbage like the last few Nightwing issues shouldn't be called fan fic. Utterly attrocious writing that nobody should ever have gotten paid for, sure, but not fan fic.

The worst thing about all this is that Bruce Jones has not been an improvement.

(And as long as I'm ranting on Devin's run, Tarantula was neither a Mary Sue nobody that remembers what that term actually means any more?] nor a self-insert.)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion but Devin's run seemed very fan fiction like to me as well. Tarantula was a Mary Sue because she basically took over the book. Nightwing was written out of charactor to fit a storyline that Devin wanted to tell. Never mind the fact that most of the events would never have occured the way she wanted it to occur. Mostly, I find it fan fiction like because it was so poorly written. Plot, pacing, dialogue and characterization all sucked IMO.

The worst part about this whole thing is that Bruce Jones has not been an imrovement.:(

[Sharcque]

Yeah --- I always thought Devin was the worst thing to happen to Nightwing. That is, until Bruce Jones took over.

Dammit!!!! Why can no one write this character other than Chuck Dixon!!!???!!!??? And why is DC wasting him on Team Zero?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Sharcque]

And as long as I'm ranting on Devin's run, Tarantula was neither a Mary Sue nobody that remembers what that term actually means any more?] nor a self-insert.

The Mary-Sue thing, maybe not. But a self-insert? Yeah -- I think it was. She became the focus of the book, and took out the big bad after, like, 8 years of Nightwing attempting to do so. Then she banged/raped Nightwing.

[Agentum]

But will the book really survive in the long run with those writers that have been recently?
How well does it sell?

[Mia]

Tarantula was a Mary Sue because she basically took over the book. Nightwing was written out of charactor to fit a storyline that Devin wanted to tell. Never mind the fact that most of the events would never have occured the way she wanted it to occur. Mostly, I find it fan fiction like because it was so poorly written. Plot, pacing, dialogue and characterization all sucked IMO.

The worst part about this whole thing is that Bruce Jones has not been an imrovement.:(

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Damo]

Tarantula was a Mary Sue because she basically took over the book.

And that's not the defintion of a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue doesn't just refer to a character that "basically takes over", it refers to a very specific type of character that "basically takes over". It's named after a 15 year old Leutenant in a Star Trek fanfic, which kinda implies the first bit of criteria a character needs to meet to be a Mary Sue - there needs to be something intrinsically great about the character that's frankly ludicrous. Like being Dumbledore's shapeshifting daughter who has a scar to match Harry Potter's, or Bruce Wayne's never-before mentioned vampire daughter, or the long lost Skywalker triplet that's a greater Jedi than anyone else. Honestly, while people may argue that Tarantula stole too much facetime from Dick, there was nothing about the character's background or abilities that were any more unlikely than any other new character in the Bat-books. But even then, the character is intended to be liked. The character is presented as being basically flawless (except for flaws meant to make the character more likable, or give the character something to angst over, like anorexia or claustraphobia). You're meant to like the character, and it's the over the top things meant to make Mary likable that make her so annoying. Tarantula was not intended to be liked, she was meant to be one of the things horribly wrong with Dick's life - appealing at first maybe, but ultimately just plain bad news.



The worst part about this whole thing is that Bruce Jones has not been an imrovement.:(

So why isn't Jones' work "fanfiction"? Don't the plot, characterization, and dialogue suck in the book at the moment?

[DLH1970]

So why isn't Jones' work "fanfiction"? Don't the plot, characterization, and dialogue suck in the book at the moment?

Devin's work seemed more like fanficfion because as time went by the quality was very amatuerish. The storyline dragged on and on with no clear end in sight. It's hard to explain, but it just felt like fanfiction. Who knows, after a few more issues, Bruce Jones' run may be called fanfiction. Or maybe he just has a better beta. ;)

Tarantula may not be a Mary Sue in the classic sense, but she did have many Mary Sue qualities. At least enough for many people to see a resemblence.

[Damo]

Tarantula may not be a Mary Sue in the classic sense, but she did have many Mary Sue qualities. At least enough for many people to see a resemblence.


Okay, you're going to have to spell them out to me then. What are these "Mary Sue qualities" the character had?

I mean, Batgirl? I love Cassandra Cain, but she was clearly a Mary Sue originally. Young teenage girl comes out of nowhere with crazy martial arts skills, a disability that made her "cute", and gets handed a Bat-costume in record time. That's a Mary Sue. Luckily there was a pretty nifty explanation for how she got to be that way, but she was still a Sue.

Tarantula? Tell me where the qualities are. Not that "she took over the book", because that's not what a Mary Sue is. She didn't have insane abilities, or a background that insulted people's intelligence. And the author did not want you to walk away in love with her. You could argue that she's still a Mary without one of those qualities, but without either? You're just plum using the term wrong.

[DLH1970]

Okay, you're going to have to spell them out to me then. What are these "Mary Sue qualities" the character had?

I mean, Batgirl? I love Cassandra Cain, but she was clearly a Mary Sue originally. Young teenage girl comes out of nowhere with crazy martial arts skills, a disability that made her "cute", and gets handed a Bat-costume in record time. That's a Mary Sue. Luckily there was a pretty nifty explanation for how she got to be that way, but she was still a Sue.

Tarantula? Tell me where the qualities are. Not that "she took over the book", because that's not what a Mary Sue is. She didn't have insane abilities, or a background that insulted people's intelligence. And the author did not want you to walk away in love with her. You could argue that she's still a Mary without one of those qualities, but without either? You're just plum using the term wrong.

Ok, her abilities increased dramatically in the short time that she was introduced, she DID become the focal point in the book to the point she was basically leading around the main character, she became a main player for Batman during "War Games" (never mind she tried to kill Barbara), Nightwing was always worrying about trying to save her from herself, and she was the one to finally kill Blockbuster after eight years of him being Nightwing's number one enemy. She became more important then the main charactor.
These are "Mary Sue" like qualities. If you don't agree, that's fine. But this is why many of us feel that she was a "Mary Sue".

[Damo]

These are "Mary Sue" like qualities.

No. They're not. What you're describing is a new important character that you don't like. That's not a Mary Sue. Do a google search of "Mary Sue". Read the wiki article, look at the "litmus tests" (nobody ever did a Batman one, unfortunately, ), pull up Merlin Missy's article from 1996 (the first online essay on the term), or a few of the essays on the homepage of the "Mary Appreciation Society". It's all right there. It's not just about stealing pages away from the main character, it never was. It that's all there was to it, Dick Grayson would be a Sue himself (Robin took quite a bit of ink away from Batman when he was first introduced). It's the qualities Tarantula lacks that make the difference. She's the character with the background that just doesn't feel right, like the girl from New York that's hanging with the cast of Lord of the Rings, or the never before seen daughter of Hellboy. And more importantly, Mary is a character the author desperately wants you to love, and has the cast liking too. Is that the case with Tarantula? No. Are there people that use the term wrong? Sure. Quite a few. But the people that maintain the websites, that write the essays, that make up the litmus tests, and that coined the term have a definition for it. And that doesn't match Tarantula.

[OverMaster]

I totally disagree. She ruined and twisted the character of Nightwing from who he was in order to fit the story she wanted to tell.

What Devin Grayson did was essentially fan fic.

Now, now. Not all fan fics do actually ruin and twist the characters they are using. 'Bad fan fic' would be a more proper term.

[OverMaster]

Ever run into anyone that hated Dixon's run and liked Devin's? Yeah, Devin's fell flat on its face, but it was trying to be something great. Dixon aimed at meh and got meh. A good while back I was a fan of his, then, looking over his work, I realized that a lot of his "good" stuff was essentially just keeping the status quo, or slightly altering it, moving a character to a new location or whatnot. Had any characters he himself had created done anything for me? No, not a one. And of his bad works, what did I think of them? Well some of them were pretty durn stinky. He's a solid enough writer month to month, with rare drops in quality (but boy, when they drop...), but I don't think he's ever achieved a moment of true greatness.

So I decided his next work would be the "deciding vote" for me, and he put out the reprehensible "Richard Dragon".

I'd rather given an older, wiser, more experienced Devin Grayson another crack on the book a few years from now than see Dixon on it again.

Re: Dixon only 'keeping the status quo'.

When Dixon was writing Detective Comics and Robin, he started around the Knightfall era. A time of very big changes to the status quo, and he was a decisive force on it. After that, the DC staff wanted, and quite soundly, to keep things more calmed down and accesible for a while, after so many changes. That was IMHO a quite good time for the Batbooks. Mind you, I always prefered Alan Grant's and Doug Moench's stuff at that period (although apparently is kinda blasphemous to say you liked Moench's and Kelley Jones' run). But Dixon always pulled out a very decent work at that time. Dixon's stuff, IMO, went down only when he started Joker: Last Laugh, and then the abysmal Richard Dragon.

Grayson, OTOH, started strong in the comics biz. Her Catwoman run was great. Her No Man's Land material was even better. Her Gotham Knights run was quite good. But she went down in quality far sooner than Dixon, almost as soon as she started her Nightwing run. Since then, I have disliked her output more than Dixon's. Even her Black Widow got nothing but a 'meh' from me.

My point is, not only Dixon made actual shakeups to the Bat-status quo, and much better handled than the recent Batjerk stuff, but also, when he kept the status quo (not a really bad thing, and sadly too infrequent in today's too convolouted comics), it was because the whole Bat-office was doing it! If anything, blame Denny O'Neil, not Dixon, on it.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't have Dixon even in his Best 15 Comics writers list. But he is still, overall, as good as Grayson at her writing prime.

[OverMaster]

BTW, Dixon co-created Bane, remade the Penguin to a respectable character at last, created the not-so-great-but-still-worthy-a-better-fate Spoiler, and the not shabby at all Connor Hawke. He also did a good job at bringing Lock-Up to mainstream continuity.

His character additions to DC lore made more to me than Grayson's, although I can't forgive him ruining the KGBeast into a loser chump.

[Chudy]

Ekhm....

.... Maybe Geoff Johns? I thought that he said at bristol convent, that he would like to write nightwing story.

[Mia]

No. They're not.

Uh yes they are.


DHL1970 is very right in his (or her) definition.


Ok, her abilities increased dramatically in the short time that she was introduced, she DID become the focal point in the book to the point she was basically leading around the main character, she became a main player for Batman during "War Games" (never mind she tried to kill Barbara), Nightwing was always worrying about trying to save her from herself, and she was the one to finally kill Blockbuster after eight years of him being Nightwing's number one enemy. She became more important then the main charactor.
These are "Mary Sue" like qualities. If you don't agree, that's fine. But this is why many of us feel that she was a "Mary Sue".

Here's what I found from google searching.

a story with an original female character who's perfect, does it all, saves the day, and is usually martyred;


An original and overly perfect character created by the writer and often acting as their alter-egos. They often end up bedding other characters or acting as matchmakers for the intended ship.


The term "Mary Sue" was coined to describe original character in fanfic who are TOO perfect. These are usually heroines (hence the term 'Mary Sue'), who step in without warning or true back-story (or a very implausible or overly-used one), sweep one or more established protagonists off their feet (usually making them act completely out of character), and then proceed to save the day in truly remarkable and dramatic ways that leave the established characters gaping in admiration and amazement.

[Damo]

a story with an original female character who's perfect, does it all, saves the day, and is usually martyred;

1. She was far from perfect. She was a bad thing in Dick's life. The readers knew it, and so did Devin. Devin listed Tarantula as one of the things gone wrong in Dick's life.
2. Did Tarantula save the day? I don't think so. Yes, she killed Blockbuster, but neither the readers nor the author saw this is saving the day. It was trading one bad thing for another. When a Mary Sue saves the day the main characters celebrate, they don't act like their entire world has been destroyed and their life has lost all meaning and control.
3. Was she martyred? Ehh... Okay, I could see that one being argued. I don't think she meets the classic defintion of martyr, or even most of the modern ones. She was not set up to be a character that sacrifices herself for the greater good, she was set up as a character that did some bad things (some good may have come out of them, but they were bad things), and someone that it would be hard for Dick to eventually have to turn over to the police. But I guess if killing Blockbuster and then going to jail for it is sufficient to be a martyr, maybe.


An original and overly perfect character created by the writer and often acting as their alter-egos.

Again, she's not, and wasn't meant to be, perfect. Not by a long shot.


They often end up bedding other characters or acting as matchmakers for the intended ship.

She raped Nightwing. When it says "bedding characters" it means the two characters fall passionately in love and they have sex. Rape isn't bedding someone, not in the sense that the person you're quoting intended. Raping = Nonconsexual sex. The relationship Tarantula and Nightwing had was a very bad one (and it was meant to be), and he eventually realized that and put an end to it.


[The term "Mary Sue" was coined to describe original character in fanfic who are TOO perfect.

Which Tarantula was not. Note the emphasis. TOO perfect. Tarantula wasn't perfect, and she sure as heck wasn't the level of TOO perfect you need to be in order to be a Mary.


These are usually heroines (hence the term 'Mary Sue'), who step in without warning or true back-story (or a very implausible or overly-used one),


Did she have a back story? Yes. Was it very implausable or overly-used? No. Maybe there are a few "former FBI agents and sisters of the D.A." that tutn to vigilantism out there, but I wouldn't wall it overly-used, and not very implausible. She had better acrobatics skills than you'd really expect from the FBI, but it's not like she was being presented as a better acrobat than Dick. That quote is talking about Batman's vampire daughter and Dumbledore's lightningbolt-scar bearing animagus daughter (I wish I'd made those characters up...), or the character that everyone in the fanfic knows, that the author never provides a back story for.


sweep one or more established protagonists off their feet (usually making them act completely out of character), and then proceed to save the day in truly remarkable and dramatic ways that leave the established characters gaping in admiration and amazement.

Did Dick or anyone else show admiration and amazement? No, Dick showed horror and utter depression. Then he put her in jail.

I'm sorry if I'm harping on about this, but it's something that really does bug me a lot. I was working on Gargoyles fandom stuff with Merlyn Missy way back when she first wrote the essay that put Mary on the map with online fanfic writers. I was on the mailing list where she first put the litmus test. I've regularly visited some of the Mary Sue sites that have sprung up over the years, and read quite a few M.S. stories. And I am sorry to keep ranting on like this, but if people keep using the term to mean any new prominant female character they don't like, whether she's canon or not, whether she comes from an absurb background or not, whether she's got ludicrous skills or not, whether you and the character are meant to love her or not, and whether a main character wants to sleep with her or if she rapes that character, then it's going to lose it's meaning. And that'd be a damn shame, because, dengit, I do love having a term that sums up that girl at Hogwarts that rides a unicorn to class, kills Voldemort, turns out to be half-angel, and get Harry Potter to fall deeply in love with her.

(Okay, I made up the angel part in that last one. The rest was real though.)

[colossus34]

I'm sorry if I'm harping on about this, but it's something that really does bug me a lot. I was working on Gargoyles fandom stuff with Merlyn Missy way back when she first wrote the essay that put Mary on the map with online fanfic writers. I was on the mailing list where she first put the litmus test. I've regularly visited some of the Mary Sue sites that have sprung up over the years, and read quite a few M.S. stories. And I am sorry to keep ranting on like this, but if people keep using the term to mean any new prominant female character they don't like, whether she's canon or not, whether she comes from an absurb background or not, whether she's got ludicrous skills or not, whether you and the character are meant to love her or not, and whether a main character wants to sleep with her or if she rapes that character, then it's going to lose it's meaning. And that'd be a damn shame, because, dengit, I do love having a term that sums up that girl at Hogwarts that rides a unicorn to class, kills Voldemort, turns out to be half-angel, and get Harry Potter to fall deeply in love with her.

(Okay, I made up the angel part in that last one. The rest was real though.)

Your points are all valid but you can't look over the clear fact about how the Tarantula character was suddenly plopped into the NW series, thrust into Dick Grayson's life, began to psychologically turn Dick into an angst bitch with Oedipal issues and psychically "rape" and dominant the main character of his own book. Then proceed to rescue the main character from his own "incompetence" by doing what he couldn't--ie kill the NW's main arch nemesis in a away that basically castrates him from doing anything. After a quick fixup and her being arrested she basically disappears from the series. Sounds like either femme fattale or Mary Sue to me....:rolleyes:

[DLH1970]

Damo, your original question was why people call Devin's work "bad fanfiction" and why people think Tarantula was a Mary Sue. I gave you the reasons people believe this, you may not agree, that's ok. Tarantula resembles a Mary Sue close enough that alot of people consider her one. That's just the way it is. Maybe the classic defintion doesn't apply perfectly but we are not dealing with absolutes here.

[Damo]

Your points are all valid but you can't look over the clear fact about how the Tarantula character was suddenly plopped into the NW series, thrust into Dick Grayson's life, began to psychologically turn Dick into an angst bitch with Oedipal issues and psychically "rape" and dominant the main character of his own book.

Sure. I'm definitely not overlooking that. But there are new characters plopping up in established stories all the time, and it's not exactly unusual for an author to introduce a new character as a means of putting the main character(s) into new situations the author wants to explore. Tarantula showed up out of nowhere, ended up becoming a main character in the book, and was used to make the stories darker. Dick Grayson (as Robin) showed up out of nowhere, ended up becoming a main character in Batman's books, and was used to make the stories lighter. I'm oversimplifying, I know, but it's not easy to find a character that quite matches Tarantula in Nightwing. Faith from Buffy (in her first season) is the closest I can think of, off the top of my head.

then proceed to rescue the main character from his own "incompetence" by doing what he couldn't--ie kill the NW's main arch nemesis in a away that basically castrates him from doing anything.

The thing is though, that was set up to be a bad thing. She wasn't saving the day, she might have even been making things worse from Nightwing's perspective. He lost everything, even the chance to fix things, even the ability to walk away without blood on his concience. I'm not saying it was a good way to bring the Blockbuster story to an end, and I can definitely understand why people would hate her for her part in it. But that doesn't make her a Mary Sue.


After a quick fixup and her being arrested she basically disappears from the series. Sounds like either femme fattale or Mary Sue to me....:rolleyes:

Femme fatale definitely, but she simply doesn't meet the criteria for being a M.S.. She's a character you didn't like that ended up playing a prominant role in the book, and robbed the main character of the chance to take care of some of his own problems. But Dick didn't celebrate when she did this, didn't rejoice that she'd "saved the day". He was horrified, sank into a deep depression, and was ultimately forced to take her down. And he showed that the way she "handled" his problems was unacceptable.

Please, please, please, I'm begging you. Do a google search, look up some of the "classic" Mary Sue stories and read them. Browse the Mary Sue Livejournal, look at stuff like http://startrek-sues.livejournal.com/ . See how painfully eye-wateringly teeth-rottingly perfect Mary is. See just how mind-meltingly stupid her origins are. See the way everyone stands around going "I wish Mary were here, she'd fix things". Please stop watering down the term by applying it to any old character that you don't like, even if that character is more prominant and takes a bigger role than she should, even if you know a other people that do it. It's a great term for a character type that even now shows up all the time, and seeing it lose its meaning is breaking my heart.

[Mia]

think of, off the top of my head.




Please, please, please, I'm begging you. Do a google search, look up some of the "classic" Mary Sue stories and read them. Browse the Mary Sue Livejournal, look at stuff like http://startrek-sues.livejournal.com/ . See how painfully eye-wateringly teeth-rottingly perfect Mary is. See just how mind-meltingly stupid her origins are. See the way everyone stands around going "I wish Mary were here, she'd fix things". Please stop watering down the term by applying it to any old character that you don't like, even if that character is more prominant and takes a bigger role than she should, even if you know a other people that do it. It's a great term for a character type that even now shows up all the time, and seeing it lose its meaning is breaking my heart.


I did a google search as to the definition of Mary Sue, those examples are what I found, I did not make them up. And it was referenced from several sites not just one. But even if the language is different. However there is a basic commonality to the defintion and term 'Mary Sue' in which Tarantula closely fits. Whether you want to accept it or not is your business.
But the fact remains is that Devin Grayson did an awful job writing Nightwing. So bad that it's my understanding that DC plans on ret-conning out the first portion of her stories. Which they should.

[OverMaster]

To be honest, there are many defenders of the theory there are Evil Mary Sues, as well as good intentioned ones. Those may be creeps of the highest scale, but are highly perfect at what they do at the point of making others look unfairly bad in comparison.

People has often talked about Jim Starlin's Thanos and the Red Hood as villainous Mary Sues, so there are grounds for No-Good Mary Sues.

[Damo]

I did a google search as to the definition of Mary Sue, those examples are what I found, I did not make them up.

I know that. I never said you did.

But as I pointed out, the examples you cited didn't apply to Tarantula. Pretty much every reference you gave made a point of talking about the character needing to be painfully perfect, which Tarantula never was. "overly perfect character". " coined to describe original character in fanfic who are TOO perfect." "leave the established characters gaping in admiration and amazement." Those are all from the sources you cited.

Mary is so incredibly good at things that the story ends up being all about Mary saving the day, which makes everyone happy and in awe at how good Mary is, and that's just not remotely there with...

*Sighs.*

I don't have the energy to argue any more... I'm too depressed about Cassandra, and no matter how many times I ask people to look at where it says Mary has to be painfully perfect and wonderful, nobody seems to listen. I'm just wasting everyone's time even trying.

[Corrina]

Damo, your original question was why people call Devin's work "bad fanfiction" and why people think Tarantula was a Mary Sue. I gave you the reasons people believe this, you may not agree, that's ok. Tarantula resembles a Mary Sue close enough that alot of people consider her one. That's just the way it is. Maybe the classic defintion doesn't apply perfectly but we are not dealing with absolutes here.

I think the other element that contributes to people believing Tarantula was a Mary Sue is that Devin was known to have written erotic fanfiction for Nightwing prior to becoming a professional comic writer. I'm not saying it's valid, I'm just pointing out that it's a contributing factor.

[Puffy Fugu]

I think the other element that contributes to people believing Tarantula was a Mary Sue is that Devin was known to have written erotic fanfiction for Nightwing prior to becoming a professional comic writer. I'm not saying it's valid, I'm just pointing out that it's a contributing factor.

Erotic fanfiction? Suddenly it all makes sense. That rooftop rape scene always did strike me as rather fanific-ish. >_>

I actually didn't see a problem with the concept of Dick having a breakdown. He was really exasusting himself phisically and mentaly. To me, it seemed like a logical thing to happen. The problem is that it was written VERY badly. Everything was terribly sloppy.

...and while we're on the topic of Grayson on NW, I hate how she destroyed everything Dixon worked so hard to create over the years- his home, his supporting characters, his cop life.

And completely off NW:
Ra's Ahl Ghul: Year One is the worst piece of crap I've ever read.

[The Xenos]

Well, pretty much every superhero comics in a franchise if fanfic. The problem with Devin's is that it was bad fanfic. Yet at the same time, I miss this 'fanfic' aspect of Devin's Nightwing. Yeah, she was a damn geek. She loved the character like any author should. This current Nightwing book just seems bland and uninterested in the character.

So yeah, I think Devin didn't do well with her run on the book. Yet I think she was picking things back up when they just jummped ahead with this crappy new direction and new author and plot. I think she was a good author for the book, but just had a bad plot surrounded by bad cicumstances that didn't pan out. I was quite happy to give her a second chance. DC wasn't. Instead, we get this crap. So yeah, I would much rather have Devin back on this book as much as I complained about her run.

[Hellstone]

I mean, there must be someone out there fitting for the role, apart from Dixon.

Compared to Dixon, anyone would be better. I simply can't stand 90% of his works.

But my first choice would be Geoff Johns. He would do well focusing on one character, and a non-powered on at that, for a change.

Second choices: Gail Simone or Kurt Busiek.


/ola

[Hellstone]

Ever run into anyone that hated Dixon's run and liked Devin's?

That would be me.

Well, actually, I didn't love Devin's work. But it was way better than Dixon's.


/ola

[Puffy Fugu]

What did you like about it (Devin's run)? I'm curious to hear the other side.