52: THE QUESTION and RENEE MONTOYA Discussion *Possible Spoilers*

[Lex]

This thread is for discussing and speculating on The Question and Renee Montoya, one of my main characters of 52. If you want to generally discuss a certain 52 issue, please try to keep it in that issue’s designated thread.

Also remember, if you want to post any information from an issue before it hits the stands on Wed., please use [spoil ] [/spoil ] tags.

The reason I combined Question and Renee together is because it looks like their stories are going to be entangled.

The Question’s History:

Vic Sage, an investigative reporter for Hub City, got tired of seeing corrupt individuals get off scott free. So he became The Question to investigate them in ways that he couldn't as a reporter. He trained in martial arts with expert master Richard Dragon. To disguise himself, he uses a special gas that seal a faceless mask to his face. The Question in known for uncovering conspiracies.

Renee Montoya’s History:

Renee was a Gotham City major crimes detective specifically appointed by Commissioner Jim Gordon. She spent years partnered to Det. Harvey Bullock and worked on several cases where she came into contact with Batman. During the Gotham City earthquake, she formed a strange friendship with Two-Face, one of Batman's rogues. Two-Face fell in love with her and, in an attempt to make her love him, he outed her as a lesbian to everyone she knew. Over time, Renee grew more and more angry, to the concern of those around her. It came to a head when her partner, Crispus Allen, was killed and she quit the force.

Covers:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/haggard/montoya1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/haggard/montoya2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/haggard/question1.jpg

[DonC]

It looks like that dude in the shadows is about to kick her.

[Yoda]

Is this going to be JLU style Question? It doesn't sound like we are getting the city shaman from the latest mini.

I hope they explain why Question picks Montoya, it seems a little odd that he would choose her to aid him in whatever he's doing. And I wonder if they are going to have run ins with Harvey Dent, considering that Batman apparently left him in charge of Gotham.

[DonC]

Me, personally, I'm hoping the Question acts like he did when he had his own series. That was the only time I was ever interested in him.

[Lex]

Is this going to be JLU style Question? It doesn't sound like we are getting the city shaman from the latest mini. I think Rucka has said that his biggest inspiriation for Question is the Denny O'Neil series. We don't know yet if they'll use any of the elements from the popular JLU version.

[stealthwise]

Any chance we could see Montoya removed from her ridiculous lesbian cop persona from Half a Life? Good god was that story horrible.

[DubipR]

Possible Stupid Theory here:

I don't think that's Vic Sage in 52. If you've been reading Batman and Detective OYL, its been mentioned several times that Harvey Dent was the protector of Gotham while Bruce and the boys went around the world. Like his Two Face persona, this is the persona he's using... a no face.

Also, I don't think Vic knows Renee at all. Harvey probably still has affections towards her, and wants her back. Hence the spotlight shining directly into her apartment.

End Possible Stupid Theory....

Eh....eh?

[stealthwise]

Possible Stupid Theory here:

I don't think that's Vic Sage in 52. If you've been reading Batman and Detective OYL, its been mentioned several times that Harvey Dent was the protector of Gotham while Bruce and the boys went around the world. Like his Two Face persona, this is the persona he's using... a no face.

Also, I don't think Vic knows Renee at all. Harvey probably still has affections towards her, and wants her back. Hence the spotlight shining directly into her apartment.

End Possible Stupid Theory....

Eh....eh?

Actually, that makes complete, perfect sense.

So you're probably wrong. :D

[DubipR]

Actually, that makes complete, perfect sense.

So you're probably wrong. :D

Yeah, figured I'm wrong. :P
Then I wouldn't be a DC writer then

[stealthwise]

Yeah, figured I'm wrong. :P
Then I wouldn't be a DC writer then

Hehe, well, I'd like to see what you suggested, but DC seems like taking the route that's least predictable, rather than doing things that make sense in terms of story. So take what I said as a compliment. :)

[DubipR]

Hehe, well, I'd like to see what you suggested, but DC seems like taking the route that's least predictable, rather than doing things that make sense in terms of story. So take what I said as a compliment. :)

Oh, I am. I figured all these years of grim and gritty DCU stories, a little lightheartedness in comics would be nice...then again, look who we have writing a majority of 52: Johns (likes to kill characters), Rucka (really likes to kill characters), Waid (eh.. maiming mostly), and Morrison (creates new characters from the other's deadpool).

Still, I'm in it for the long run.

[Corrina]

Any chance we could see Montoya removed from her ridiculous lesbian cop persona from Half a Life? Good god was that story horrible.

I'm reposting this from the 52 #1 thread....

As a big Montoya fan, I think Greg Rucka was one of the worst things to ever happen to the character. Wait, Rucka on Gotham Central, because I liked his work on Montoya in "No Man's Land" and in a few issues of his run on "Detective."

To me, in GC, Rucka took every positive character trait Montoya had and smashed it away with all the tragedy that was unnaturally visited on her. I still do not buy for one second her going medieval on the photographer following her in "Half a Life," not after the trauma she'd been through in NML and never broke. Plus, Montoya was never stupid before. Rucka wrote her actions in the Two-Face arc as utterly stupid.

And no, I don't object to her being a lesbian--though that was something Rucka made up out of whole cloth---the scenes with her family were affecting and the ones with Daria were sweet. But this out-of-control drunken Montoya is utterly and completely alien to any Montoya who's ever appeared before.

And yes, she was drunken and out of control BEFORE Cris Allen was killed. I'd pretty much like to throw out everything written by Rucka about Montoya in "Gotham Central."

That said, I hope he does something to bring her back from these depths in 52. But I have the feeling she's going to be dead when it's all over.

:sigh:

[DubipR]

My problem with Rucka writing Montoya during Gotham Central is was his Go To character for every arch. It wasn't fun to read his arcs because he used her as crutch for a shitty story.

As for "Half a Life" goes, I don't mind her being a lesbian as well. It was a bit forced, but the whole stink of that arc was people didn't buy it because the story sucked ass. Dent was written poorly; Rucka made Renee extremely stupid and unlikeable when she's a great character overall. Now she's a hopeless Mikey Rourke Barfly type drunk when she's resourceful enough to get another job; security....something.

I'm not saying Retcon punch it, but I'm going to block at least that arc from my head.

[Super Sonic]

Is that not the point of 52 though, to redeem her?



Or kill her?

[stealthwise]

Is that not the point of 52 though, to redeem her?



Or kill her?

It's probably both, but it seems like a waste to tell, when there was no reason to ruin her in the first place. Whenever you have a character who gets written very stupidly, you have to look back and ask, "What was the point of this whole arc? Why did they have to get dragged down in the first place? What do you we gain from it when it's all said and done, rather than a time-filler before restoration to the status quo?"

[Destro777]

Any chance we could see Montoya removed from her ridiculous lesbian cop persona from Half a Life? Good god was that story horrible.
I thought that story was pretty good. I actually think that particular arc won an Eisner if im not mistaken.

[stealthwise]

I thought that story was pretty good. I actually think that particular arc won an Eisner if im not mistaken.

Well, obviously my opinion isn't the same as that of others, but Corrina did (and always does) an excellent job of explaining the things that bothered me about that story the first time I read it. It did indeed win an Eisner, but so did a lot of other things that I, for one, feel shouldn't have.

[Corrina]

In my opinion, that story won and Eisner because it handled Montoya's coming out to her family quite well--the rest of that five issue arc was utterly predictable and had Montoya behaving as stupid & without any self-control.

I could care less if she's a lesbian but I do care that her character as previously established as an intelligent cop with enough toughness and coolness under fire to survive in NML's was thrown completely by the wayside.

And the drinking problem came totally out of left-field.

[ChthonicSpirit]

I don't know Montoya from anything except NML, so I can't really comment on her recent characterization. However, let me just say, regarding the first cover . . .

Wow. Boobage.

[Lex]

Possible Stupid Theory here:

I don't think that's Vic Sage in 52. If you've been reading Batman and Detective OYL, its been mentioned several times that Harvey Dent was the protector of Gotham while Bruce and the boys went around the world. Like his Two Face persona, this is the persona he's using... a no face.It's true that Batman left Gotham in the care of Harvey Dent. But why would that stop The Question from trying to protect the city in his own way? I doubt Batman told any of the other heroes that one of his rogues gallery would be watching over the city.

And, by the looks of it, Question is going to be too busy on this quest with Montoya to worry about Gotham.

But, aside from all that, you came up with a fun theory. That deserves some cool points.

[Babylon23]

Is this going to be JLU style Question? It doesn't sound like we are getting the city shaman from the latest mini.

As another poster stated, it looks like this will be the zen philosophy martial arts Question from the Denny O'Neill 80's series, which for me is the most interesting version of the character.

I hope they explain why Question picks Montoya, it seems a little odd that he would choose her to aid him in whatever he's doing.

I thin this comes back to something that happened early on in the Question's 80's series. He was basically killed in issue 1, but was revived by Lady Shiva. He was then trained by Richard Dragon. The whole expeerience gave him a new lease on life, a new perspective, and a direction .

Later, in the Rucka Huntress miniseries, The Question gave the same chance to Huntress, and he and Richard Dragon tried to train her.

I get the feeling he'll be doing the same thing with Montoya. She's at her lowest point, much like he was before the training.

[Babylon23]

I'm reposting this from the 52 #1 thread....

As a big Montoya fan, I think Greg Rucka was one of the worst things to ever happen to the character. Wait, Rucka on Gotham Central, because I liked his work on Montoya in "No Man's Land" and in a few issues of his run on "Detective."

To me, in GC, Rucka took every positive character trait Montoya had and smashed it away with all the tragedy that was unnaturally visited on her. I still do not buy for one second her going medieval on the photographer following her in "Half a Life," not after the trauma she'd been through in NML and never broke. Plus, Montoya was never stupid before. Rucka wrote her actions in the Two-Face arc as utterly stupid.

And no, I don't object to her being a lesbian--though that was something Rucka made up out of whole cloth---the scenes with her family were affecting and the ones with Daria were sweet. But this out-of-control drunken Montoya is utterly and completely alien to any Montoya who's ever appeared before.

And yes, she was drunken and out of control BEFORE Cris Allen was killed. I'd pretty much like to throw out everything written by Rucka about Montoya in "Gotham Central."

That said, I hope he does something to bring her back from these depths in 52. But I have the feeling she's going to be dead when it's all over.

:sigh:

Hi Corinna,

this was, I believe, a response to one of my posts in the main 52 #1 thread. I'll respond here since this is the Montoya thread.

I haven't read many stories involving Montoya outside of Gotham Central. Most of the Batman stories I saw her in featured her in very small cameo roles, usually as Bullocks partner, so I don't really know about the character traits you mention. I can't really compare the differences between her portrayal in the different stories, but I can explain what I liked about her character in Gothem Central.

In Gotham Central, I really became engrossed in her story. She seemed like a very "real" character, dealing with a lot of very personal and emotional adversity. As the series progressed, she definitely grew on me, to the point where she became my favourite character in the series.

I don't know what she went through in NML, but I do know that having your private life thrust into the spotlight can greatly affect your actions. As such, I didn't have a problem with how Montoya handled the problem in "Half a Life". Were the things she dealt with in NML of a similar personal nature?

[Corrina]

Well, in No Man's Land....

Montoya's family was under physical attack.

The city she grew up in crumbled around her.

She was kidnapped and abused by Two-Face.

Her best friend, Sarah Essen, was killed.

She was constantly under threat of death, with the attacks by the other gangs in No Man's Land.

She dealt with a lot of sorrow and grief. But she didn't turn into a drunk and, what's more, she didn't somehow lose a bunch of IQ points because her family was being attacked by a gang or maruaders. Apparently, only being a lesbian causes one to be stupid, over and above being shot at and kidnapped and fighting off a gang from killing one's parents and immediate family.

(Which really doesn't speak well for becoming a lesbian....)

Don't get me wrong on Rucka--he's responsible for a lot of the good stuff about Montoya. But after a while on GC, his heaping of tragedy on Montoya became absurd and over the top.

[fenixrisingxl]

So, from what I'm hearing, Montoya is the Andy Sipowicz of the GCPD? That sucks.
I guess her glory days on Batman TAS are long since over...

[sly_kat]

well now since it looks like Rucka is writing a "question" series after 52 is over, perhaps Montoya will be trained as the new "question" and get her own series... hence the gay figure getting her own series that weve been hearing all about.? if any of that theory is true... we could be saying goodbye to the Question...

[Super Sonic]

I don't want to seem sexist, but the Question can't be a woman, the suit thing just wouldn't work, and the suit is what he's all about. ^_^

Also I really don't want Vic to die, lol.

[Lex]

well now since it looks like Rucka is writing a "question" series after 52 is over, perhaps Montoya will be trained as the new "question" and get her own series... hence the gay figure getting her own series that weve been hearing all about.? if any of that theory is true... we could be saying goodbye to the Question...Are you talking about DC panel at last weekend's Bristol con?

They've said over and over and none of the main characters in 52 will be seeing anywhere else until the last issue of the series. That's so they don't spoil the ending. If a Question series is in the works, it won't be for another year. Other writers have talked about wanting to do spin-off books once 52 is over (I know Steel is a possibility... if he survives).

So I don't think that what was said in Bristol was an "in stone" confirmation of an upcoming Question series.

[Babylon23]

Well, in No Man's Land....

Montoya's family was under physical attack.

The city she grew up in crumbled around her.

She was kidnapped and abused by Two-Face.

Her best friend, Sarah Essen, was killed.

She was constantly under threat of death, with the attacks by the other gangs in No Man's Land.

She dealt with a lot of sorrow and grief. But she didn't turn into a drunk and, what's more, she didn't somehow lose a bunch of IQ points because her family was being attacked by a gang or maruaders. Apparently, only being a lesbian causes one to be stupid, over and above being shot at and kidnapped and fighting off a gang from killing one's parents and immediate family.

(Which really doesn't speak well for becoming a lesbian....)

Don't get me wrong on Rucka--he's responsible for a lot of the good stuff about Montoya. But after a while on GC, his heaping of tragedy on Montoya became absurd and over the top.

Thanks for the clarification. I think I can see where your coming from. From what you've explained here, it seems that Rucka has pushed Montoya away from her original depiction/personality in order to tell the story he wants in 52. I can see how annoying that can be. I've had quite a few of my favourite characters ruined in recent times.

If it helps, I think there's light at the end of the tunnel for Montoya. The Question likes to take people who are down and out and train them, as he did with the Huntress. I get the feeling we'll see that in 52 with Montoya. She's hit rock bottom, and the only way is up from here. I'd say 52 will be Montoya's tale of redemption, so you may see her back to her old self again in 51 weeks.

[Shellhead]

Possible Stupid Theory here:

I don't think that's Vic Sage in 52. If you've been reading Batman and Detective OYL, its been mentioned several times that Harvey Dent was the protector of Gotham while Bruce and the boys went around the world. Like his Two Face persona, this is the persona he's using... a no face.

Also, I don't think Vic knows Renee at all. Harvey probably still has affections towards her, and wants her back. Hence the spotlight shining directly into her apartment.

End Possible Stupid Theory....

Eh....eh?

I love your idea, but I also loved the O'Neill version of the Question. I think your idea would actually work better, because Vic Sage is famous enough that his presence in Gotham at the same time as the Question will be a problem. On the other hand, it would be neat to see Two-Face and the Question as rivals who are both trying to protect Gotham and don't trust each other.

[Young Avenger]

I read the Question and Renee bitss of this week's 52 and I liked what I seen so far. So far it seems that Babylon23 is right. The Question is hiring Renee to do some detective work to got her out of the mess she's in. And I wonder if Question sneak into her apartment after Renee and her lover were sleep or was he there the entire time and watch. :D

I have a question. When he Question learned to appear in a cloud of smoke?

[Paul Newell]

I read the Question and Renee bitss of this week's 52 and I liked what I seen so far. So far it seems that Babylon23 is right. The Question is hiring Renee to do some detective work to got her out of the mess she's in. And I wonder if Question sneak into her apartment after Renee and her lover were sleep or was he there the entire time and watch. :D

I have a question. When he Question learned to appear in a cloud of smoke?
The character always did that from the beginning.

[Jack]

Does the Question actually need Renee's help, or is he doing it to help her?

I hope she runs into Harvey some time soon.

[Babylon23]

I read the Question and Renee bitss of this week's 52 and I liked what I seen so far. So far it seems that Babylon23 is right. The Question is hiring Renee to do some detective work to got her out of the mess she's in.

Cool. I haven't read the issue yet, but it looks like Rucka is continuing his excellent work with the character.

I have a question. When he Question learned to appear in a cloud of smoke?

Technically, he doesn't actually appear in a cloud of smoke. He actually has a stash of gas in his belt. The gas serves 2 purposes. First, it acts as a bonding agent, sealing his faceless mask to his skin. Secondly, it acts as a smokescreen, enabling him to make cool entrances.

[Kistler]

Plus, I think it's fairly obvious that like many of us, the Question was a big fan of DARKWING DUCK and, like DW, understands the important of a cool smokey entrance.

"I am the Question that ... um ... asks in the night ... yeah ..."

[Damo]

Any chance we could see Montoya removed from her ridiculous lesbian cop persona from Half a Life?

Now how in the heck would they do that? "Oops, it was just a phase, I'm all better and straight now"? Yeah, that'll go over real well. >_<



She dealt with a lot of sorrow and grief. But she didn't turn into a drunk and, what's more, she didn't somehow lose a bunch of IQ points because her family was being attacked by a gang or maruaders. Apparently, only being a lesbian causes one to be stupid, over and above being shot at and kidnapped and fighting off a gang from killing one's parents and immediate family.

Aside from the fact that I think it's unfair that you're linking her being a lesbian to being stupid (and no, I don't think you're seriously saying that was what made her act less intelligently, but a comment like that needs to be addressed), is it really that much of a stretch to say that, yes, she was able to survive all that, but it began building up on her? There are some genuinely strong people out there that will start to crack after going through enough trauma. And poor Renee's had more than her fair share of trauma. Honestly, I think Rucka could have looked at the things that had happened to her and either said "she's indestrucatable, nothing I throw at her should make her lose it," or "that girl's nerves must be held together by spit and string and this point, there's no way she can take much more."

As for the Question's dramatic appearances... He's always appeared in a cloud of gas, but I believe the cloud was usually just a little more than man sized in the past. I think these larger clouds are a new thing.

[Apathy Boy]

It's probably both, but it seems like a waste to tell, when there was no reason to ruin her in the first place. Whenever you have a character who gets written very stupidly, you have to look back and ask, "What was the point of this whole arc? Why did they have to get dragged down in the first place? What do you we gain from it when it's all said and done, rather than a time-filler before restoration to the status quo?"You can't ruin a character who was never interesting to begin with. For the first five years of her comic book existence, Montoya never did anything more than play the straight man to more interesting characters like Bullock and Gordon and sometimes exclaim Mein Gott! or something to remind us she was from an ethnic minority. (Anyone remember the phase where Montoya did nothing but take dictation as Gordon's assistant?)

So I had no problem with Montoya being outed and thought "Half a Life" was a half-decent story. What I did have a problem with was Rucka shunting aside the dozens of cool characters in GOTHAM CENTRAL to focus on such a mind... numbingly... dull... character.

52's looking like it'll be no different.

[Captain Smith]

Is the ? bulletproof or does he wear a vest? Looked like he got shot twice.

Luckily, Renee forgot her failure to stop drills or didn't have time.

[Jack]

Is the ? bulletproof or does he wear a vest? Looked like he got shot twice.

Luckily, Renee forgot her failure to stop drills or didn't have time.
You can see the bullets go through his coat.

[Corrina]

Aside from the fact that I think it's unfair that you're linking her being a lesbian to being stupid (and no, I don't think you're seriously saying that was what made her act less intelligently, but a comment like that needs to be addressed), is it really that much of a stretch to say that, yes, she was able to survive all that, but it began building up on her? There are some genuinely strong people out there that will start to crack after going through enough trauma. And poor Renee's had more than her fair share of trauma.


As for the first, I meant that *Rucka* wrote Renee stupid and less intelligent in Half a Life, putting forth the lesson, at least to me, that being a lesbian so totally overwhelms one's psyche that they become stupid and idiotic.

So, if you're going to turn a character with a previously established preference for men (yes, she had at least one boyfriend in the past) to a lesbian, I feel like it should have been set up better, instead of simply being dropped out of thin air. I'm missing a step in her emotional development and that bothers me.

Second, I said stupid because the Renee Montoya in that story is stupid. No, not for worrying about what her parents will think. It's for 1. Beating up that photographer who was later murdered. C'mon, everyone could see that coming. 2. The whole set up with the extra gun--Renee even says in that story that she's being dumb about it, a sure sign that the author recognizes he's written a really stupid action, and 3. Failing to even trust her partner with the full story.

I could easily buy Renee being off-balance at being outed. What I could not buy is after keeping her wits about her under extreme life-threatening situations that she would act so stupidly. It wouldn't take too much to have rewritten "Half a Life" with the same essential elements of Renee being emotionally off-balance but with the character acting far more like the smart cop she's always been.

Plus, she doesn't even save herself at the end--Batman shows up and lectures her. Ugh. As for the drinking, I think if someone is going to descend into a drinking spiral, they'll probably have hints of that in their past. It's another element Rucka introduced without background.

(Btw, Renee isn't the only character Rucka wrote as stupid. In "Murderer/Fugitive" Batman is not only an asshole, he's an idiot. But that's off-topic....)

[Damo]

As for the first, I meant that *Rucka* wrote Renee stupid and less intelligent in Half a Life, putting forth the lesson, at least to me, that being a lesbian so totally overwhelms one's psyche that they become stupid and idiotic.

I understood that's what you're meant, but the way you phrased it I couldn't let it go unaddressed. I hope you understand why.

So, if you're going to turn a character with a previously established preference for men (yes, she had at least one boyfriend in the past) to a lesbian, I feel like it should have been set up better, instead of simply being dropped out of thin air. I'm missing a step in her emotional development and that bothers me.

Honestly that bugged me too. At the time I put it off as "he's hurrying through the story because he's worried his title might get cancelled (and despite good sales and press, GC was consistently brought up as a title that might get cancelled at the time). Looking back it bugs me more, but... honestly, with so many far worse mistakes being screamed from the mountaintops, I just don't have the energy to mind too much.

Second, I said stupid because the Renee Montoya in that story is stupid. No, not for worrying about what her parents will think. It's for 1. Beating up that photographer who was later murdered. C'mon, everyone could see that coming. 2. The whole set up with the extra gun--Renee even says in that story that she's being dumb about it, a sure sign that the author recognizes he's written a really stupid action, and 3. Failing to even trust her partner with the full story.


Of those things the gun was the hardest one for me to buy. But having had a cop friend years back (we're no longer in touch), I know even the most seemingly intelligent police officers can be scary careless with their guns. When things become the most familiar, that's when there's the most danger. But yes, that did bother me.

But I had no problem with beating up the photographer. Yes, we could see she was being set up. But we were kind of expecting that from the story, we knew things Renee didn't, and had expectations of a cop story that honestly don't apply too often to real life for cops. For me it was just that having that cackling ghoulish piece of slime causing her more humilation pain and heartbreak, then having him come out in the open and brag about the fact that he was still doing it, was just the last straw for Renee. I could buy that. So many of her problems had been big ambiguous faceless problems, nothing she could really get her hands on. And here was someone that not only could she vent all her anger and frustration upon, but who honestly had it coming (I forget what crime it was he'd managed to walk from. I think it was either rape or murder). It was well established by then that the character had been through hell and managed to hold up. I can definitely see why you didn't like the scene. But I don't think "she'd finally[i] just had [i]enough" is an unfair explanation, or that it was unreasonable given the character's history. Maybe not the nicest way to go with her past, but not unreasonable in light of it either.



I could easily buy Renee being off-balance at being outed. What I could not buy is after keeping her wits about her under extreme life-threatening situations that she would act so stupidly. It wouldn't take too much to have rewritten "Half a Life" with the same essential elements of Renee being emotionally off-balance but with the character acting far more like the smart cop she's always been.


Well... I think for a good while Rucka definitely showed Renee off balance, making mistakes that were't unreasonable for a character finally reaching her wit's end, keeping in mind that she didn't realize she was being set up. I really don't think that when she attacked the photographer that the character had half as much reason to suspect that she was being set up as the reader had. But I think she started coming together in the end. She told her partner everything - and I honestly had zero problems with her having kept things secret until then. Even without the added baggage of having had Bullock as her last partner, there are just some thing's it's hard to tell people, no matter how close you are. And while Crispus may have been a big teddybear underneath it all, he never struck me as the kind of person it's easy to open up to. More to the point, she also figured out who was behind it all. Things were far along by then, but it still felt like Renee was shaking off everything that was going on around her and switching to detective mode.


Plus, she doesn't even save herself at the end--Batman shows up and lectures her.
He sure was consistently in Batdick mode in that book, wasn't he? ^^()


Ugh. As for the drinking, I think if someone is going to descend into a drinking spiral, they'll probably have hints of that in their past. It's another element Rucka introduced without background.


This is another thing I half agree with. I'm the first to say we saw a lot more of Renee before GC than most people seem to think. But not that much. There were big parts of what she was like where we had nothing to go on. Her bar habits were just one of them. Again, I would have liked it to be something slowly eased in, but I always got the feeling the GC crew were preparing for a big enough drop in readership to get the book cancelled, and hurrying to tell the stories they wanted to tell. It's the exact opposite mistake I think Rucka made on WonderWoman (where I think he, not unreasonably, thought he could set up all sorts of stories to tell down the line, not quite knowing just how much IC would end up affecting the book).

[Corrina]

Added baggage of Bullock being her last partner?

I see where we're more in agreement than anything else. It sounds as if we both agree certain elements needed better clarification but that I'm less willing (or more stubborn <g>) in letting it go. It may be because I'm less willing to give Rucka the benefit of the doubt because I hated his M/F arc.

But about Bullock, yes, Harvey was a gruff pain-in-the-ass but he would have stepped in front of a bullet for Renee. He would anything at all for her and she knew that, too, and trusted with her life and, more importantly, her frienship. Their interaction in "Half a Life" didn't make much sense to me, because Harvey's reaction to Renee being a lesbian would have been surprise, a shrug, then a crass joke along the lines of "Can I watch?" and Renee would have punched him in the shoulder, they both would have shrugged and it would have been a non-issue. Their unlikely friendship was one of the best things about the Gotham cops, as written by Chuck Dixon and others.

But the assasination of Harvey's character is yet another topic. I'm just glad he's back and getting all the snarkiest lines.

[Damo]

Added baggage of Bullock being her last partner?

Hey, whoah. Don't get me wrong here. I love Harvey. Always have. And yeah, he defiitely has had some mud flung on him over the years. But wow, even talking about him way back when, or dealing with the animated series, or basically any take on the character I can think of... if I was a lesbian? I would have to put serious thought into whether or not to tell him, even if I was his partnet. He's a nice guy, but I'm having touble imagining him not being a constant P.I.T.A. over it. He could watch my back any time, but I wouldn't trust him to be careful with a big secret that he would probably want to make bad jokes about.

I see where we're more in agreement than anything else. It sounds as if we both agree certain elements needed better clarification but that I'm less willing (or more stubborn <g>) in letting it go. It may be because I'm less willing to give Rucka the benefit of the doubt because I hated his M/F arc.

That might do it all right. I just bailed on most of that thing because... well do I even need to say why? Loved how it was used to finally have Batgirl figure out his secret identity though.

[yeoman]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/haggard/montoya1.jpg



I can't be the only one that saw this and thought "Renee Montoya: Tomb Raider."

[Jamescush]

Any chance we could see Montoya removed from her ridiculous lesbian cop persona from Half a Life? Good god was that story horrible.
Maybe her sailor boyfriend who died in Contagion could come back as a ghost?:D

[Damo]

"you Stay Away From That! That's My Bloody Question Mark!"

[Lex]

I can't be the only one that saw this and thought "Renee Montoya: Tomb Raider."More like Warehouse Raider. :)

[shanejayell]

*bumps up*
:)

So.. what are your thoughts on Renee as a possible replacement for Vic as the Question?

[TheTen-EyedMan]

*bumps up*
:)

So.. what are your thoughts on Renee as a possible replacement for Vic as the Question?

I personally think it's possibly the worst editorial decision in DC comics history.

[shanejayell]

Assuming they go through with it. Could be a bait & switch.

[Santanico]

I personally think it's possibly the worst editorial decision in DC comics history.

Yeah, that's about where I am, too. Vic Sage is dying of friggin' cancer? Oh, bite me, DC.

[noface]

On the other hand, if they're going to kill him off, I'd rather him die of something real and human than exploding while carrying the Spear of Destiny into the heart of Space Moby Dick, or something equally cheezy.

Hey Santanico! You haven't dropped by www.vicsage.com lately!

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Yeah, that's about where I am, too. Vic Sage is dying of friggin' cancer? Oh, bite me, DC.

Bite me Dan Didio.

[Damo]

It bears noting that one of the things written on the blackboard o' clues is something like "DON'T BELIEVE THE QUESTION. IT LIES."

[Jmacq1]

It bears noting that one of the things written on the blackboard o' clues is something like "DON'T BELIEVE THE QUESTION. IT LIES."

We can only hope.

Seriously, if Vic Sage dies, I am done with DC. Completely and totally. I've been pushed to a bare minimum of titles already thanks to the festering pile of messes upon screw-ups that they've done (prior to, during, and after Infinite Crisis), and I only read "52" because I knew it was going to have a heaping helping of Vic Sage/The Question. But Didio (at this moment) seems bound and determined to kill off anyone that isn't the "big 7" or directly linked to them somehow (with maybe a few exceptions in the JSA).

Between all this and the giant mess that is "Civil War", it's beginning to look like I'm getting pushed out of the hobby. Kudos to those that enjoy the current storylines and where each universe is going though, and I hope you enjoy them for many years to come.

[BetterThanYou]

It bears noting that one of the things written on the blackboard o' clues is something like "DON'T BELIEVE THE QUESTION. IT LIES."

I am still wondering whether "it lies" was used instead of "he/she lies" in order to foreshadow reneee taking over wothout giving it away, or to make us think she will be when she really won't.

[shanejayell]

Huh. Hadn't considered the Hunter quote.. good point.

Another idea occurred to me... two people as the Question?

[sly_kat]

Huh. Hadn't considered the Hunter quote.. good point.

Another idea occurred to me... two people as the Question?


Which one lies then?;)

[Babylon23]

I love the Question. He's very close to my favourite DC character. I'd hate to see him die.

However, I think they're handling his situation very well at the moment. He's dying of cancer, he knows it, and he's training Montoya as his replacement. If he does die, I like the fact that he's choosing who his replacement will be, and making sure they're ready for the job. If Vic dies, and Montoya becomes the new Question, at least Vic will have had a hand in creating her.

This could also be an interesting twist in the Question mythos. The Question would become a legacy character, with each Question training their replacement (similar to the Phantom or V in V for Vendetta).

If this happens, I'm certainly not going to storm off in disgust, vowing never to read DC ever again. I like Montoya as a character, and she has a lot in common with Vic, especially Vic before he trained with Richard Dragon. I'd definitely read a Question series featuring Montoya in the main role.

Of course, Vic isn't dead yet. I think we're all jumping the gun a little on 52. It may be that Vic and Montoya end up sharing the identity, or that Montoya decides not to take up the role.

[titanfan]

It could be that Montoya ends up being his sidekick too.

[Kaos]

Question Woman

[BetterThanYou]

I heard someone somewhere propose Question and Answer.
I liked that one.

[shanejayell]

Maybe she becomes Ms Riddle?

....nah.

[Lex]

It bears noting that one of the things written on the blackboard o' clues is something like "DON'T BELIEVE THE QUESTION. IT LIES."
Interesting. Could he be faking in an attempt to push Renee to become whatever she's going to become by the end of 52? If she can't rely on him any more, she'll have to start relying on herself.

[Damo]

I doubt he's faking... just doesn't seem the kind of guy he is... but the line does seem to indicate that there's more going on than we think.

[Damo]

And as for Montoya as a sidekick...

I like her, but the only person that can ever be his sidekick is Marco.

Ah, Question and Marco. It took so many people so long to get that pun. Probably because they were too busy grinning as Marco prayed to St. Bruce, patron saint of martial artists.

[shanejayell]

*rolls eyes*
BAD pun!

[blackphoenix]

Know I'm WAY late on this, but that dude from Intergang called Vic and Montoya "The Questions." I bet Montoya takes over as the Question after Vic "dies."

[shanejayell]

"the Question lies"

:)

What if Renee disguises herself to look like the Question did originally? A bulky suit and a bit of padding and you have a "male" Question.

[Apathy Boy]

Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part, but...

The 52 crew is making it way too obvious that Montoya is going to replace Vic. So obvious, in fact, that I smell a swerve.

Therefore, I think Montoya is going to assume the identity of another superhero - but that identity will be Batwoman. "Kathy Kane" isn't exactly a lucky name to have, after all. And nothing inspires Gothamites to dress up like a bat like the death of a loved one. Plus, if Montoya's Batwoman, the character will remain highly marketable - er, I mean, lesbian.

[Babylon23]

Interesting. Could he be faking in an attempt to push Renee to become whatever she's going to become by the end of 52? If she can't rely on him any more, she'll have to start relying on herself.

Well, Vic does have incredible willpower and physical awareness. I suppose you could extrapolate on his training to suggest that maybe he could will himself to illness in order to aid Renee on her personal journey. It's a bit of a stretch, but then, this is a comic.

Actually, I wouldn't put a bit of deception past Vic. He isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world, despite his training and role as hero. In the O'Neill series, he always had a darker side to his personality.

Of course, DC keep saying that a major 52 character will die, so maybe that's Vic, and it's not a ruse at all.

[Shellhead]

Maybe she becomes Ms Riddle?

....nah.

What about Query?

I like Apathy Boy's theory. After this epic 52 adventure, Montoya seems capable of stepping up to a superhero role, although it's hard to picture her willingly wearing spandex and using Batgimmicks. And Ms. Kane seems awfully driven for a mere socialite, one who hasn't faced the kind of tragedies that shaped Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon or Tim Drake.

On the other hand, while I hate the idea of Vic Sage dying of cancer (and still think that he is faking it), if somebody had to replace him as the Question, I would now accept Montoya.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part, but...

The 52 crew is making it way too obvious that Montoya is going to replace Vic. So obvious, in fact, that I smell a swerve.

Therefore, I think Montoya is going to assume the identity of another superhero - but that identity will be Batwoman. "Kathy Kane" isn't exactly a lucky name to have, after all. And nothing inspires Gothamites to dress up like a bat like the death of a loved one. Plus, if Montoya's Batwoman, the character will remain highly marketable - er, I mean, lesbian.

I had her picked as Huntress but then found out Helena is still around.

Batgirl's a logical choice.

[mattx110]

maybe "the queston lies" is more of a sign on a gravestone type thing. it's just missing a "here".

that would support him dying.

[shanejayell]

maybe "the queston lies" is more of a sign on a gravestone type thing. it's just missing a "here".

that would support him dying.

I had NOT thought of that. But why was "Lies" underlined on Rip Hunter's chalkboard?

[Jack]

maybe "the queston lies" is more of a sign on a gravestone type thing. it's just missing a "here".

that would support him dying.
Except that's not the full line, it also says "Don't trust the Question", IIRC.

[ReccaSquirrel]

My wife pondered this one.

I don't remember the exact word of the prophecy but one of the Intergang critters stated the line "Get Batwoman's Heart". The picture in the book does show the heart of batwoman being pulled from her chest. But what if Batwoman's heart was Montoya?

[mattx110]

Except that's not the full line, it also says "Don't trust the Question", IIRC.

do you trust dead people? i don't... you never know when they're being impersonated by some demon or something!

[Shellhead]

I had NOT thought of that. But why was "Lies" underlined on Rip Hunter's chalkboard?

Rip simply can't stand liars, I guess.

[Jack]

My wife pondered this one.

I don't remember the exact word of the prophecy but one of the Intergang critters stated the line "Get Batwoman's Heart". The picture in the book does show the heart of batwoman being pulled from her chest. But what if Batwoman's heart was Montoya?
Hmm, that's interesting.

[drwho]

I'm all for Rene becoming the new Question. She just needs to start acting like him.

[Damo]

She's already sleeping with women, that's a start. =P