Why do you like DC more than Marvel?

[mandog]

Why do you like DC more than Marvel? Do tell.

[MarvelKnight]

I like both equally, I just buy more Marvel than DC.

[Matt]

DC style stories traditionally deal more with the fantastic, whilst Marvel deal more with angst. I prefer the former, it's as simple as that.

[Rylon]

This is a tale of two comics....

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

Once apon a time I bought excusively Marvel. Captian America, Secret Wars, Spider-Man, and more Captian America. I read a lot of Cap written by Mark Grunwald, the best editor Marvel has ever had. But this isn't about Cap, this is about the X-Men, specificly, X-Factor. I was never a big X-Men fan, you could never understand a given issue unless you had read the last 60; you couldn't understand the last 60 unless you had read 5 other title. But, right after some huge X-Men crossover, Peter David took over X-Factor. I picked-up his first issue and it was great. It had a lot of humor. I kept reading. It was a brand-new team and everyone's back-stories were explaind. And, in what makes Peter David on of my favorite writters, it had great moments of tenderness to.

Then, less than a year into the run, it was starting to get bogged down into yet another major crossover. What really made this bad was that, at least in thouse days, a crossover didn't have one major mini-series and sometimes a title would tie into it. No, back then X-Men #7 was Days of Past Tense Futured Next Week, Retconned Yesterday part one, Uncanny X-men #278 was Days of Past Tense Futured Next Week, Retconned Yesterday part three, and so on thrue the other titles. These crossovers could last 20+ parts.

Every book I bought spiraled down like that. Even Captian America. Half the time it seemed like the book I fell in love with didn't exist after 6 issues.

Enter the Death of Superman. I didn't get most of Doomsday bcause the cossovers was structed the same way the X-Men crossovers were. I didn't know what issues were part of the story, and I couldn't find them anyways. But I did get Superman #75, in the bag, with the poster and the armband. I wore the armband for two days. There I saw a Superman who wasn't at all like the sterotypes I was used to. Lois knew Superman was Clark Kent. They were engaged. Over in Batman, there was a new Robin who was my age and had to learn the ropes. I loved it.

So, Marvel fell away and was rplaced by DC.

[stealthwise]

None of Marvel's mainstream titles interest me, really. I might get Civil War, but I'm undecided, as I don't want the spinoffs.

I tend to buy the smaller titles from Marvel, such as Runaways, She-Hulk and Nextwave. Marvel's lack of non-superhero books kills my interest as well, as I've probably spent several thousand dollars in the past five years on just Vertigo books.

[Ontir]

I started off with DC. My first word (I've told this story before, but it's true...) was "Batman." I didn't even know that Marvel existed until I was like 4 and a half. By that time, I'd found the Legion of Super-Heroes and was already hooked on DC.

A few years later, when I could actually read, I was put off by Kirby's artwork (Cut me some slack, I was seven!), and found the stories to be grim - not that I knew what grim was at the time, but I understood the feeling. I didn't begin reading Marvel in any signifigant way, until the late 70's, when I found that the guy (Dave Cockrum) who's work looked so good on the Legion, was now doing X-Men. Of course, by the time I started buying the book, this new guy Byrne was on - but he was OK, too. I also started reading the Avengers at that time. A few years later, I discovered that Kirby had something to do with the characters from the Return of the New Gods, which I loved, and began seeking that stuff out. When he returned to comics with his Pacific Comics title, I discovered why he was "the King!"

I go back and forth with Marvel. They always put out something that I have to buy, but for the last several years, it's only been a book or two. I'm at a relative high on Marvel these days, with Amazing Spider-Man, Ultimates, Young Avengers, Fantastic Four, Astonishing X-Men and Anhilation (SP?). The problem I rountinely have with Marvel, is that it tends to be overly grim, and of late, they keep dicking around with their universe - even moreso than DC! Despite DC's upheavals and self-propelled anachronisms, they have (with the exception of Identity Crisis) maintained a pretty steady tone of their books from the 40's to present. I like that.

[BYC]

Both companies goes through cycles of good/bad. I think DC has had the good cycle for 3-4 years now. Infinite Crisis, although a cash cow, can really blow up in their faces. We've already heard how lots of members on these forums expressed "mehness" to IC. DC's downtrend could be starting soon.

Marvel killed the industry with the early to mid 90s crap. After the bankrupcy, they cleaned up their act, but that didn't last. I haven't seriously followed any Marvel titles for well over a decade now except for Ultimate X-Men and Ultimates. (right about when Onslaught ended and Zero Tolerance started, how ironic). It definitely seems like to me that DC has picked up a lot of Marvel's good traits during their good cycle.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There have been times where I've read as much or more Marvel than DC, but I'll always be primarily a DC fan. That universe just sings to my inner-fanboy more. There's just something unbeleivably primal & mythic about Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Captain Marvel, Dinah & Ollie and all the rest.

Which isn't to say that Marvel's characters don't also have some of those elements but their universe does feel younger, which it is, about twenty years younger. The DC characters feel more like legends to me. Their history has more lineage, a grander tapestry and far more diversity.

Despite all the many talents that have built Marvel, it is primarily the foundation built by Stan & Jack and that informs everything over there. Whereas DC is equal parts Seigel, Shuster, Finger, Kane, Fox, Kubert, Kirby, Shwartz, Broome, Kane...the list goes on. There's no primary foundation for this universe, so the universe has a variety of perspective and point of view that Marvel lacks at times.

This isn't to say Runaways, Young Avengers and Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine aren't absolutely fantastic books, but, in the end, the majority of the universe usually holds very little interest for me.

[Forsaken_One]

Short answer: I like DC more in the feel of the comics. It seems to be a more hopeful world than that of Marvel; at least the futures have a tendancy to be less bleak and it doesn't focus as much on the horridness of humanity and their actions towards minorities and/or one another.

Additional information: Mostly, however, I buy individual comics, like Vertigo titles or Image comics, that don't share worlds so much. The DC/Marvel comics I buy tend to be like Robin or Young Avengers; titles that might have the history of the world(s) in them but don't require outside reading to enjoy.

I do like the Ultimate lineup though. I liked it more when it wasn't as continuity heavy, back when it first started, but that's what happens when a comic keeps on being published I guess. Still, it's good to know that the whole history of that universe is available in trade paperback and isn't 40 years worth of complexity. It's good to know where Magneto stands, for example, rather than wondering if he's posing as a healer in the X-Mansion or brainwashed by Prof. X a while back or off on some orbiting asteroid or maybe an island populated with dinosaurs or he could be dead or he could be combined with other powerful beings to form one uber villian at the time or maybe the leader of the Earth or... well yeah.

[black_flash]

there mores violence in dc. and there are better story lines in dc.

[literally exaggerated]

DC does postmodern vastly better, literary better, and epic better. Marvel does realistic/deconstructed and soap opera better. I generally (though not exlusively, by any means. I'm addicted to Ultimates and Astonishing X-men) prefer the former.

[spaz]

I enjoy both companies and I think no one should discriminate one or the other. Both have good titles but I give the edge to Marvel for better characters. However I give the edge to DC when they like doing huge crossovers within the company. And for some reason I think DC has more memorable story arcs/title runs.

As I've gotten older I lean towards the writing. So if a certain writer is working on a title on a given moment I like to collect that comic. I think writing is what makes or breaks the book. Before I used to value art first, then the character, then the writer. But Spiderman/Superman is not worth collecting if the storylines/dialogue just plain bite!

Bottomline: Buy from both companies! Give each one a chance and be openminded. Some titles suck but some titles rock!

[DC_FanBoy]

I used to be a big Marvel guy when I was a kid and then I started to get into

[Zero Hunter]

For me it is jus that the DCU is much funner to read. Marvel under Quesada has been grounding everything to much in the real world to be fun. It seems like all the magic and wonder has gotten sucked out for more real world and down to earth stuff. Some books are great like this, but when almost all of your books are that way it just gets stale. At least to me.

I do read some Marvel books that I still really like, but nowhere near as many as I used to. Most of the time when it is a book I really like it is not one of the inner click writers who share Joe Q's vision of "Real Worldness", but instead the writers that still seem to have a broder sence of imgination. I will credit Joe Q for realizing somwhat that some still like reading about stuff that is still more on the fantaistic side. Take the Annihilation event and how Joe was smart enough to get writers who know how to do great Sci-Fi type stories, and let them run with it. To me that so far has been better than House of M and Civil War.

[Agentum]

The historical deep (i know people is tired of hering this), there is so much to know if you want.
But i like Marvel comics too but it much moe easy to overlock and don't have so many intresting golden age charactes.
I read from comics from both and from other publishers, but DC is more important for me, i care more for what happens in DCU and i read older comics just to know things about DCU, Marvel i just read for fun and don't care so much about the MU616 at all.

[Green Arrow Jr.]

When I was about six my dad would take me to a book store where I would get these big tabloid size comics about Superman, Batman,Captain Marvel,and JSA. When I was eight I discovered the Teen Titans & Superboy and the LSH I was hooked DC it wasn't until I watched the Spiderman cartoon that I was introduce to Marvel and I then it was Spidey, Cap, Teen Titans and the Legion until I was 17, when my History teacher called me and my friend X-men in a DC universe that got me to check out the Xmen. I will always like DC unless they kill off Nightwing,Arsenal,and of course Connor Hawke. DC has history on it's side they publish the first Superhero, Superman and that's one thing Marvel can never beat.

[Ripper]

I preffer Marvel to be honest because my two of my favourites are ther (Spider-Man, Daredevil), however, DC still has my all time favourite character, Batman and some other favourites such as Flash and Green Lantern. However, I hate Superman with a passion, so with that i have a thing where i prefer Marvel soley on the basis that they dont publish Superman.

[mandog]

I am a Marvel fan, and to be honest most of the reasons you prefer DC is why I dont like it as much. I also must disagree that Marvel is a darker universe. Marvel has its dark moments dont get me wrong. But, I think DC is in a much darker place right now. Who knows after the Civil War, but for now DC seems to have less light hearted books.

[K'Nort]

Less angst, basically.

Overall, rather than specific to current events, Marvel is more dark and 'realistic' and for some people that's perfect, but I'm looking more for escapism and entertainment.

Marvel also spends more time on the characters' personal lives and that doesn't interest me. I don't learn anything about actors or musicians or authors either.

[The Shadow]

I enjoy both companies and I think no one should discriminate one or the other. Both have good titles but I give the edge to Marvel for better characters. However I give the edge to DC when they like doing huge crossovers within the company.

Bottomline: Buy from both companies! Give each one a chance and be openminded. Some titles suck but some titles rock!
Nice post.

Sums me up as well.

As I said in the Marvel thread I get 20 Marvel's and 20 DC's pe month. I'm neither a Marvel Zombie or DC Drone.

[The Shadow]

for now DC seems to have less light hearted books.
I agree.

Marvel has gone and done books like She-Hulk, Thing, Great Lakes Avengers, Ms Marvel and so on while DC seems to be interested in the epic crossover at the expense of the titles... none of which are lighthearted.

[Suzanne]

For the record, I don't dislike Marvel. I'm somewhat intrigued with the Avengers; I liked Disassembled and the recent DVD, and I'm open to trying some older stuff prior to Wolverine and Spiderman's enlistment. Otherwise, Marvel just hasn't caught my eye in the past 3 years. This may sound silly, but Joe Queseda's arrogant, cocky, and piss-on-everyone's-heads attitude has been a turn-off. Still, never say never.

I became interested in DC because of Justice League, but it also appeals to me because the characters seem more mature, which, as someone pushing 30, is something I greatly appreciate. Also, I find the DCU's rich history fascinating.

[The Shadow]

I find the DCU's rich history fascinating.
But not Marvel's just as rich history?

Why's that?

[Agentum]

But not Marvel's just as rich history?

Why's that?
Easy, Marvel came along in the 60s, before that there is not so many intresting characters and mostly monster comics and so on, and for many years Marvel put out very few diffrent books when DC put out many.
This is so easy to understand to me.

[Ripcord]

Not to sound like broken record but the angst in Marvel books is what keeps me buying DC. I want to read about superheroes with a greater fantasy element. now to totally contridict myself I mostly buy Batman the guy with no real superpowers :D

[The Shadow]

Easy, Marvel came along in the 60s, before that there is not so many intresting characters and mostly monster comics and so on, and for many years Marvel put out very few diffrent books when DC put out many.
This is so easy to understand to me.
Marvel was originally called Timely Comics and came out in 1939. It became Atlas in the 50's and then Marvel in the 1960's... but it's been around almost as long as DC.

I will give you DC having more characters that are still around.

DC was originally called National Periodical Publications when it debuted in 1937 with Detective Comics. So they only have 2 years on Marvel.

[Sizzle]

I've read both Marvel and DC, quit for a while, and now only read DC with the exception of Astonishing X-Men. When Joss is done with it, so I will be.

DC got me into comics, my first issue as a older kid was Batman 457, and I'm still a big Tim Drake fan.

Marvel has trashed their universe and characters since the 90's, I would have a hard time telling if all the stories I read really happened or not. At least DC tries to recognize and erase their mistakes instead of just pretending so and so issued did not happen. The erase it with in continuity events.

I also appreciate the fantasy element of DC a bit more. If I wanted to read more realistic things, why would I buy comics in the first place?

As mentioned before, I too find Joe Q. rather immature and irritating now.

[Rokk]

I like both Marel and DC equally. They both satsify my different cravings. plus, I tend to follow writers. If a writer I like takes over a title I have never read before, then I'll give it a try. Basically, if a comic is good then I'll read it regardless of which company it is.

There are only three titles that I buy no matter what becuase I have complete runs on them. Those are Uncanny X-Men, Iron Man and Legion of Superheroes. Other than that, regardless of the company, I judge a comic book based on its own merits and not who the publisher is.

[Agentum]

Marvel was originally called Timely Comics and came out in 1939. It became Atlas in the 50's and then Marvel in the 1960's... but it's been around almost as long as DC.

I will give you DC having more characters that are still around.

DC was originally called National Periodical Publications when it debuted in 1937 with Detective Comics. So they only have 2 years on Marvel.
You are missing out that they did not keep their pre-Marvel characters alive for a long time and only published crime, love and monster books in the 50s.
They started all over in the early 60s, but had very few books for a decade, they took back Cap. America and Submariner from the golden age and reinvented Human torch but honestly they don't have much more golden age character that is intresting enough.

[soda]

when I first started reading comics, I read exclusively marvel. Savage sword of conan the barbarian taught me how to read, I used to really dig Wolverine and wolverine vs. ghost rider, and spiderman. I didn't pick up a DC comic for years, because DC in the eighties and nineties just wasn't interesting.

Then came the hiatus, where I stopped buying comics alltogether for the better part of a decade. The quality was horrible, and I had lost all faith in the industry, so it was easy to quit. I heard about Ultimate Spiderman, and was intruiged, but not enough to get back into comics. What brought me back was Jim Lee and Jeph Loeb on HUSH. That's a big part of the reason why I favor DC so heavily right now over Marvel: I got back into comics right at the time when DC was passing Marvel creatively.

For the record, I think this industry is best when both marvel and DC are strong, and pushing each other, and in turn, pushing the smaller publishers to really take their work to another level. I think that right now is such a time. I just think that while Marvel and DC are both strong right now, DC is so much stronger. I buy eight marvel books, every month, I buy Astonishing x-men, she-hulk, the thing, captain america, daredevil, x-men deadly genesis, young avengers and runaways. What you should find interesting about that list is that I follow writers. I hate Bendis, and I can't stand New Avengers, and I won't buy anything by him, I also tend to avoid the "big" marvel titles, the ones written by the JMS' and the millars of the world. I like Dan Slott, I think his work is excellent, and Ed Brubaker, gosh, I can't believe DC let him go. Also, I'll buy anything by Brian K. Vaughn.

The rest of my list is DC, vertigo and small press. Generally speaking, my DC purchasing is way larger than my Marvel, and on pull lists of customers throughout my local store, that's what we're noticing, marvel stuff is gradually dropping, and DC stuff is gradually getting picked up. I would say that there's no "reason" why this is so other than the obvious one: the quality in the DCU is simply better right now. That's not to say Marvel is in bad shape, very far from, they're doing well right now, just that what they're putting out isn't good enough to get the job done anymore. DC has taken it's game to the next level, Marvel needs to catch up. The good news is that I doubt DC can keep up this pace, if the history of the comic book industry teaches us anything, it's that this is a very cyclic business, with radical ups and huge downs. DC will be down again before long, and marvel will have it's chance to pass. So, DC fans, let's gather rosebuds while we may, this won't last.

[Hellpop]

I think the big difference between Marvel and DC's characters was illustrated in JLA/ Avengers: compared to DC's big guns, Marvel's don't really compare. Thor just doesn't have the stature of Superman, nor Iron Man of Green Lantern (well, he's better than Rayner); except for Cap, the Avengers don't have anyone that says "icon" to me. True, part of the problem is that Marvel's meal ticket characters, Spider- Man and the X- Men, are loners and outlaws.

But there are other reasons. I'm much more thrilled by Julie Schwartz' Silver Age books than I am Stan Lee's. Give me The Flash or Green Lantern any day! I still get a charge out of buying a new (to me) Infantino Flash. Sure, I'm out of step with history, but DC in those days was never "Brand Ecch", as far as I'm concerned.

That's why I enjoy the characters more. But the compainies? I currently buy one Marvel title a month, Squadron Supreme (ironically, given their history). I think that Marvel under Joe Quesada has deteriorated to the point that almost the entirty of their line is unreadible. Books like New Avenges not only leave me cold, they make me angry. I cannot imagine, as long as this current editorial direction persists, being more than an occasional Marvel reader.

[Ender]

I started with Marvel (Ghost Rider #3 and Guardians of the Galaxy #1 from a Kmart spinner). DC eventually drew me in with the Death of Superman *cringe* I know, but I loved that story. It redefined who he was as well as showed me how close that universe was. One thing lead to another like nothing I had seen from Marvel. Supes dies>Comes back, but Coast City dies>Hal goes nuts>ends the GLC, new Lantern (I know "Hal people" but for a lot of us twenty something readers Kyle is our GL)>Hal becomes Parallax kicks off Zero Hour...etc. Hell the JLA fights Doomsday first and it wasn't forced at all it was logical. That type of cohesion was never present in the Marvel U. The Marvel universe has always been, and though improving lately two universes. The X-men U and Superhero U and even (come to think of it) Spiderman U. No matter how dangerous the X-men opponent rarely did anyone else face it. Once in DC history and the sense of mythology appealed to me. Certainely Marvel has a a great history and mythology but rarely is it cherished by its editorial staff. All that being said I buy more DC but get my fair share of Marvel as well. And yes Joe Q does put me off to his company a lot. I feel that engendering the whole Marvel v DC thing hurts the industry as a whole.

[titanfan]

I think the big difference between Marvel and DC's characters was illustrated in JLA/ Avengers

Yup. I thought that it was great. I remember when I first got into comics--I was buying books from both titles. I remember Marvel books being so angsty and depressing. It seemed like the characters would go from angst-fest to angst-fest without much of a breather. DC just seemed brighter and more happy--it seemed like how a world would be if there were really superheroes in it.

I do think the universes have blurred a bit over the years. So now it's just personal preferences and which characters stand out to me.

[Kevinroc]

Yup. I thought that it was great. I remember when I first got into comics--I was buying books from both titles. I remember Marvel books being so angsty and depressing. It seemed like the characters would go from angst-fest to angst-fest without much of a breather. DC just seemed brighter and more happy--it seemed like how a world would be if there were really superheroes in it.

I do think the universes have blurred a bit over the years. So now it's just personal preferences and which characters stand out to me.

The lines have definitely blurred. And it seems like it is DC that is trying to make their universe more like Marvel's.

[Indefatigable]

DC has better characters. It's not that Marvel's suck, I just like DC's characters more.

[Nick Kal]

It's funny that DC keeps being suggested as taking the Marvel approach... I believe Joe Quesada said that himself... when it doesn't seem like Marvel originated this approach in any way or even live by it... and it's funny that DC has been that way for a while anyway...

[Apathy Boy]

When I first started reading comics in the mid-‘80s, I read Marvel and DC about evenly. I’ve become more and more of a DC guy ever since, though. There’s a few reasons for that:

1. DC has always struck me as having more variety. They’re more willing to explore genres other than superheroes. They have a greater range of characters, both in terms of personality and in terms of the type of stories that can be told with them.

A lot of people think Marvel heroes are more relatable because they’re all angsty. I find that kind of sad. I’m more likely to relate to characters who can experience a full range of emotion, including happiness.

Seriously, if you knew someone who was married to a superhot supermodel, was a Pulitzer-winning photojournalist and could break bricks between his buttcheeks, wouldn’t you want to just kick ‘im in the nuts everytime he complained about having crappy luck?

Admittedly, DC's been more angst-ridden lately, but we'll have to see if this is a blip or a trend.

2. Marvel lost a lot of ground in the ‘90s. I’d struggle to think of five Marvel comics that were even adequate that decade. DC, on the other hand, probably had its best decade ever. My two favourite ongoing series of all-time, THE SPECTRE and STARMAN. The heyday of Vertigo. HITMAN. Brilliant short-run series like CHASE, CHRONOS, VEXT and RESURRECTION MAN. A bunch of great mini-series, led off by THE GOLDEN AGE.

3. I really don’t like the X-Men, which pretty much eliminates a third of Marvel’s line. By contrast, I tend to like all of DC’s major franchises.

4. And yeah, Quesada gets on my nerves too. Marvel Knights did some decent stuff for a while, but Quesada’s bombast has become a bit much to take.

[Gozwald73]

I think that lame Superfriends cartoon got me hooked on DC when I was a kid. I don't dislike Marvel characters, just grew up on DC is all.

[shaxper]

DC has better characters. It's not that Marvel's suck, I just like DC's characters more.


I think DC largely has better premises, and that's because DC was there first. By the time Marvel kicked in in the 1960s (I don't consider their earlier attempts particularly impressive), so much of the Superhero genre and its archetypes had already been established. As a result, Marvel sold itself more on fantastic art and energetic writing than it did on the actual characters. I think Stan did his best to create new and remarkable premises for superheroes, but most of those proved difficult to keep interesting. Obviously, Spiderman was an amazing new premise for a character and Stan did it well, but many of Marvel's other original concepts got old pretty quickly (Hulk, Doctor Strange, Silver Surfer, X-Men, and even the Fantastic Four). I think that's why Marvel was quicker than DC was to really humanize their heroes and give them rich continuities and personalities. It was all they could do to keep these characters interesting and to compete with DC. I don't even think X-Men could have lasted long on its premise alone (just look at how the Silver Age issues did). In contrast, if Batman were still a simplistic, avenging vigilante of the night with no further complexities, people would still be interested in him. Heck, most people that know and appreciate Superman, Wonder Woman, and maybe even Green Lantern, Flash, and Hawkman loved them before any of them ever had decent characterization. DC flourished for thirty years before Hal Jordan and Bruce Wayne became full-fledged characters, forty years before Wonder Woman did, and some of us are still waiting on Superman.

However, this generation of comic book readers has been widely influenced by Marvel. Whether or not we read Marvel, we've come to expect real characters behind the masks in less than ideal circumstances, and often told in long, continuity-complex story arcs. DC, a company that began with two dimensional heroes and absolutely no continuity for the first twenty five to thirty years, has spent the last twenty trying to Marvelize. Some would argue they've even succeeded in doing it better, with better continuity and better characters. Of course, that's strictly a matter of opinion.

So yes, I do think DC has the better characters (though not necessarily the better characterizations).

[Leslie Lee III]

Better characters, more interesting history, and right now the writing on a whole is simply better.

[Killer Frost]

Someone once said the natural state of the Marvel universe is conflict, and the natural state of the DC universe is harmony. They don't always achieve that harmony but they reach for it. It's for that reason I haven't read a Marvel comic in a couple of years. There's enough conflict, angst and human melodrama in real life, I don't go looking for more of it in comicbooks. I just like the DC characters better too. I'm happier and more at home in the DCU.

[Lady Obie]

For a long time DC was my fave co because I liked their characters and universe a bit more than the Marvel-ous competition's.

But the years shrunk the gap between both companies (the fact I liked DC more also caused me to have higher expectations and criticisms of them) and the gap completely closed when DC offed my fave heroine Jade back in February.

And the death of Wallflower in New X-Men 25 cemented the tie between both companies.

Sure either or both of these young heroines might be resurrected someday (the nature of comic characters often includes the revolving door of death) but even if that happens and they get royally awesome treatment upon their returns, I may well find I like having both companies on an even keel so much I'll opt to leave them that way ;)

[EDmanwalking]

In a recent interview with Newsarama, or it may have been from a comic-con panel, a Marvel editor (I think? If anyone knows who this was...) argued that Marvel were stronger because they were more grounded in reality and that the issues we see in society today are reflected in the comics. He said it was not good for DC to ignore this.

However, I get enough of the real world every day, the state it's in. Comics are pretty much my escape, I don't want to sit down and read a comic book that reminds me depressingly of the world we're in now. That's one of the many reasons why I prefer DC, it's rightfully a fantasy universe.

[Lady Obie]

However, I get enough of the real world every day, the state it's in. Comics are pretty much my escape, I don't want to sit down and read a comic book that reminds me depressingly of the world we're in now. That's one of the many reasons why I prefer DC, it's rightfully a fantasy universe.

And that sums up what I want in comics, no matter what company they come from.

If I want things I can see in my local newspaper I'll buy a local paper, considering local papers cost 50 or 60 cents and have far better distribution than comics :)

But if I'm going to go out of my way to get comics (accent that because they're much harder to get and far more expensive than local newspapers) I want something I can't get in the papers.

I want that special kind of escapism and fun ;)

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

DC far and away created the Super Hero mold but Marvel perfected it.

Superman and Batman are iconic compared to Wolverine and Spiderman because look at the time difference. Superman and Batman came out some 40 years before Wolverine. ALso when comics were in thier hayday of sales back then. Compared to now, comics are a disaster for sales.

The problem I have with DC's Batman and Superman being icons is they never lose. They are to perfect. Bruce is a millionare playboy who sleps with whomever he wants, has no personality outside of Batman, always wins out in the end(even beating Superman), and never has and real emotion other than serious.

Superman is the perfect hero. ALways does right, always wins, no one is stronger, has a perfect life with a wife. NOthing ever goes really wrong for him. He is just boring to me.

NOw look at Wolverine. Wolverine is a man who walks the line between right and wrong. He makes bad choices, wrong choices in life and has to deal with them. He doesn't win every battle. He survives but he sure does lose a lot. Outside of the costume, his life is a disaster but at the same time a joy to him. He is always climbing this moutain but no matter how high he gets, he always falls back down. ALthough no matter how many times he falls down, he always gets back up. HIs life echoes what a real human life is like a lot more than Bruce Wayne's or Clark Kent's does. ALso outside of the costume is where he shines. He is a human first, a super hero second. He always strives to be good and do the wirte thing but just like humans givens in to his dark side and does the wrong thing. His costume is something he wears, not something that defines him as it does Superman and Batman. He is human, where as there human side is all but non existant.

Superman is Clark Kent
Batman is Bruce Wayne
but...
Logan is Wolverine
Peter Parker is Spiderman

[Bat-Mite]

I really like how most complaints about the DCU only make sense if you take a time machine and go back to the 1950s.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

I really like how most complaints about the DCU only make sense if you take a time machine and go back to the 1950s.


All my complaints are realitive today. The only coment I made about Batman and Superman in the 50's were that, that is why they are more iconic than SPiderman and Wolverine in Marvel. Cause compared to Spidey they were around 25 some years before and Wolverine some 45 years before.

[Suzanne]

But not Marvel's just as rich history?

Why's that?
Like I said before, Marvel hasn't caught my interest.

[The Shadow]

Like I said before, Marvel hasn't caught my interest.
What have you read from Marvel?

[El_Filibusterismo]

To give a Mafia movie analogy, I have always felt that Marvel was more akin to "Scarface", while DC resembles "The Godfather".

Both are classics in their own right, although they are judged in different capacities.

The Godfather (DC) has a long history, is almost epic in scope, and has a well written, thought provoking story. Additionally, The Godfather can also be called long, boring , and outdated.

Conversely, Scarface (Marvel) is entertaining to the majority of the population, has an in-your-face attitude, and one of the best characters in cinema. While popular, Scarface can also be called gimmicky, low-brow, and kind of cheesy.

Strange I know, but that is how I have always tried to explain the differences between the companies.

[Nick Kal]

To give a Mafia movie analogy, I have always felt that Marvel was more akin to "Scarface", while DC resembeles "The Godfather".

Both are classics in their own right, although they are judged in different capacities.

The Godfather has a long history, is almost epic in scope, and has a well written, thought provoking story. Additionally, The Godfather can also be called long, boring , and outdated.

Conversely, Scarface is entertaining to the majority of the population, has an in-your-face attitude, and one of the best characters in cinema. While popular, Scarface can also be called gimmicky, low-brow, and kind of cheesy.

Strange I know, but that is how I have always tried to explain the differences between the companies.

I totally agree with this.

[Mia]

Well I started off with Marvel. But then when the books started to go down (mid-late 90's). I stopped collecting all together.

When I started collecting again five years ago. I found most of the Marvel books way too adolescent for my tastes. So I stayed with DC (primarily the Bat books) which I found to be a bit more adult in tone.

However lately Marvel, thanks to B.M. Bendis has been drawing me back in. I really am enjoying the AXM. I love the way that their stories are couched in reality and I love the politics and the intrigue. I just read the first part of Marvel:Civil War today and I really enjoyed it. I also like the way that the characters are not completely black and white. But shades of grey. Even the villains.

Magneto might be a villain, however I can understand and sympathise with his motivations. On the other hand I just don't get Lex Luthor. The carpet chomping villain doesn't work for me and I find it too simplistic.

[Kevinroc]

To give a Mafia movie analogy, I have always felt that Marvel was more akin to "Scarface", while DC resembles "The Godfather".

Both are classics in their own right, although they are judged in different capacities.

The Godfather (DC) has a long history, is almost epic in scope, and has a well written, thought provoking story. Additionally, The Godfather can also be called long, boring , and outdated.

Conversely, Scarface (Marvel) is entertaining to the majority of the population, has an in-your-face attitude, and one of the best characters in cinema. While popular, Scarface can also be called gimmicky, low-brow, and kind of cheesy.

Strange I know, but that is how I have always tried to explain the differences between the companies.

Hhmm... Not bad. By and large. There are times when the lines blur and DC could be considered more Scarface and Marvel is more The Godfather but yeah... By and large, that's a pretty good assessment.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Well I started off with Marvel. But then when the books started to go down (mid-late 90's). I stopped collecting all together.

When I started collecting again five years ago. I found most of the Marvel books way too adolescent for my tastes. So I stayed with DC (primarily the Bat books) which I found to be a bit more adult in tone.

However lately Marvel, thanks to B.M. Bendis has been drawing me back in. I really am enjoying the AXM. I love the way that their stories are couched in reality and I love the politics and the intrigue. I just read the first part of Marvel:Civil War today and I really enjoyed it. I also like the way that the characters are not completely black and white. But shades of grey. Even the villains.

Magneto might be a villain, however I can understand and sympathise with his motivations. On the other hand I just don't get Lex Luthor. The carpet chomping villain doesn't work for me and I find it too simplistic.

I agree about the villians comment. Outside of Joker, every villian in DC seems one dimensional. While Marvel villians have to many layers in them.

Also I think in terms of adolesence writing, DC takes the cake compared to Marvel. DC goes for fantasy and wonder with no kiling, while Marvel goes grim and gritty with killing if the situation pertains. Just like the real world.

Although I love the fact that DC has 2nd and 3rd generation hero's who are one day supposed to take over their mentor's mantle. Although I doubt that will ever happen, but at least its possible. Where as with Marvel, right now, its no possible.

[Thnikkaman]

Also I think in terms of adolesence writing, DC takes the cake compared to Marvel. DC goes for fantasy and wonder with no kiling, while Marvel goes grim and gritty with killing if the situation pertains. Just like the real world.



Have you even read a DC book in the last, oh, I don't know, FIFTEEN YEARS?!

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Have you even read a DC book in the last, oh, I don't know, FIFTEEN YEARS?!


Yes and compare me 1, just 1 DC title as dark as the X-men series or Wolverine or even the Hulk.

Compare Wolverine to say Batman. Wolverine easily more realistic than Batman. I mean Batman, a human being can whoop on everyone in the DCU, even Superman. Not only that but Joker kills Gordon's wife, molests his daughter and cripples her, makes him look at all her nude pictures and all he does is shot him in the leg. What unrealistic crap. Your daughter molested, wife killed, not to mention thousands more dead and all you do is shot him in the leg. Then look at Batman. Joker kills thousands and wounds Grayson, kills Jason Todd with a crowbar to the face and all he does is lock him up. Not to mention Nightwing kills Joker but Batman goes out of his way to bring Joker back. Are you freaking kidding me. Not to mention, how many times can one man be found legally insane and get away with murder a thousand times over. I don't care how insane someone is, if he continued to break out of jail and kill thousands someone would either kill him or sentence him to death.

Now look at Wolverine. Magneto/Sabertooth and all his villians do horrible things but they never get arrested. That keeps some sense of it being realistic. They get beaten but rarley imprisoned.

Also in Marvel the gov. and people fear meta's where in DC they embrace them. Face facts, people fear what they don't understand. All meta's should be feared because people don't understand them or how powerful they are.

All DC books are very similar to the Batman analogy. See how Marvel is more relaistic?

[Bat-Mite]

Yes and compare me 1, just 1 DC title as dark as the X-men series or Wolverine or even the Hulk.

Personally, I think the whole "Dark = Better!" basis of judgment is extremely juvenile and wrong;I personally rate books based on craft, plotting and imagination. But since you are asking...

Hitman: A series starring a hitman for hire working in Gotham City. Since he has superpowers of his own, he specializes on killing people with superpowers.

Manhunter(The current series): Attorney, who gets tired of seeing super criminals walk out on technicalities, steals a bunch of confiscated supervillain weapons and hunts them down. I can't remember the last time a supervillains managed to get out alive of guest starring in that series.

Lab Rats: Secret government agency uses kids to test out dangerous stuff they just find around.

Suicide Squad: The comic book version of The Dirty Dozen. The US Government takes supervillians out of prisons and sends them off in Black Ops missions with the promise of reducing their sentences if they live.

Etrigan: Immortal Jason Blood is bonded with the crazy evil demon Etrigan for some reason I don't remember.

And I can go on and on with examples without even bringing Vertigo Book.

I am afraid Thanos/Wolverine that you do not have enough knowledge of the subject you are discussing.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Personally, I think the whole "Dark = Better!" basis of judgment is extremely juvenile and wrong;I personally rate books based on craft, plotting and imagination. But since you are asking...

Hitman: A series starring a hitman for hire working in Gotham City. Since he has superpowers of his own, he specializes on killing people with superpowers.

Manhunter(The current series): Attorney, who gets tired of seeing super criminals walk out on technicalities, steals a bunch of confiscated supervillain weapons and hunts them down. I can't remember the last time a supervillains managed to get out alive of guest starring in that series.

Lab Rats: Secret government agency uses kids to test out dangerous stuff they just find around.

Suicide Squad: The comic book version of The Dirty Dozen. The US Government takes supervillians out of prisons and sends them off in Black Ops missions with the promise of reducing their sentences if they live.

Etrigan: Immortal Jason Blood is bonded with the crazy evil demon Etrigan for some reason I don't remember.

And I can go on and on with examples without even bringing Vertigo Book.

I am afraid Thanos/Wolverine that you do not have enough knowledge of the subject you are discussing.


You are right about Manhunter, forgot about that one. Although the rest are not currently running except for Etrigan and to me, compared to Marvel, he is a lot less dark. I was comparing DC now to Marvel now, not DC in the past. Cause for a while DC was pretty dark. ALthough now, all I see is Manhunter which I heard was getting cancelled. Also Etrigen to me is not that more grounded than other DC titles.

I completly agree that darker is not always considered better. Although what someon said before was that DC was a lot more realistic and not as cartoony compared to Marvel. Which to me is not true. DC is a lot more unrealistic compared to Marvel. Manhunter is one of the few DC titles that is more realistic that is currently going on?

Any other current more realistic titles from DC compared to Marvel?

[Bat-Mite]

I was comparing DC now to Marvel now, not DC in the past.

No, you were not. When you compared Batman with Wolverine you used events from Batman: The Killing Joke, which was published in 1988.
Eighteen years ago is not NOW.

Have your cake, or eat it. You can't do both.

In either case, current "realistic" DC series would include:

Checkmate: DC's grim and gritty UN black ops unit keeping an eye on metahumans. And it promises to bring back the Suicide Squad.

Lucifer: It stars the devil. What else can I say?

Frankenstein: Undead killing machines fighting cannibal zombies.

Hellblazer: Chain smoking magician goes around London getting himself in trouble with hell and heaven.

Also, Grim and Gritty does not equal realistic in any sense of the word.

[van-zee]

Marvel is sci-fi, DC is Mythology. Marvel is a commentary on the world outside our windows, DC is a commentary on the world inside each of us.

Marvel is popcorn.
DC is steak.

[Mia]

DC is a commentary on the world inside each of us.


DC is steak.

Interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

[van-zee]

Interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

Marvel stories come from the same place that those monster movies of the 50's did. That cold cold war fear. There is nothing wrong with that, and Marvel has been known in the past to put out explorary material (although I think Quesada and Kevin-Smith-wannabe-Bendis need to move on before they run the company back into the ground).

As Joseph Cambell said, the purpose of a story is to teach us how to function within our society. I've learned a lot more from Superman, Batman, even Plastic Man, than I have from Ghost Rider or The Fantastic Four.

DC's characters work on the same framework as all the old mythology... they are stories of gods living amoung mortals. The more they see their humanity through the populace, the more we see our humanity in them.

When the four-year-old boy inside me (his name is Charlie) wants to see a lot of zip bam pow, Make Mine Marvel.

When I want not only to be entertained, but also transformed, bring me four pound, medium rare t-bone straight out the DC nation.

[titanfan]

Also in Marvel the gov. and people fear meta's where in DC they embrace them. Face facts, people fear what they don't understand. All meta's should be feared because people don't understand them or how powerful they are.

Yet, in the Marvel World, they are totally fine with the Avengers and all the non-mutant powered people running around.

I think the DCU version of metas are far more realistic. On one side, superheroes are a pop culture phenomenon. They are basically celebrities, are always in the tabloids, looked up to by the general public, etc. On the other side of things, there are people who don't trust them, shadowy government people who spy on them, keep track of them, etc.

The world I live in must just be so different from yours, because I think it would be way more like DC. Most of the mutants these days are attractive, articulate, and have saved the world. There is *no way* there would be random bigotry towards them just because they can shoot an energy blast.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

No, you were not. When you compared Batman with Wolverine you used events from Batman: The Killing Joke, which was published in 1988.
Eighteen years ago is not NOW.

Have your cake, or eat it. You can't do both.

In either case, current "realistic" DC series would include:

Checkmate: DC's grim and gritty UN black ops unit keeping an eye on metahumans. And it promises to bring back the Suicide Squad.

Lucifer: It stars the devil. What else can I say?

Frankenstein: Undead killing machines fighting cannibal zombies.

Hellblazer: Chain smoking magician goes around London getting himself in trouble with hell and heaven.

Also, Grim and Gritty does not equal realistic in any sense of the word.


Lucifer and Constantine don't count because they are Vertigo. That would be like me saying DC is very corny because of JLU and Teen Titans GO. Checkmate has not brought back the Sucide Squad yet. ALso how can anyone say Checkmate is dark and gritty yet. HOw many issues have been published?


I compared things from the Killing Joke and Batman the series because Batman is relavent today. The series continues today where as HItman is long gone(the series). Although here is some analogies to today:

1: Omac's were killing hero's left and right. So what do the hero's do, try to subdue them because people are inside. If your friends are getting killed left and right and these things are overpowering, when does leathal force come into plan? HOw unrealistic in the real world.

2. Batman can beat anyone. What a bunch of crap. How on earth can Batman beat a man who can do anything who's a Superman? This relates to everything from the past and what not. He beats Superman or holds him at bay. WHat a joke. A real Batman and Superman fight would go something like in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel(I think thats the title.)

3. Suberboy freezing GL's and smahing them into pieces in space. IN SPACE!!! Its not even possible in space.

4. Continues resets of Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman so they never get to old the fight crime.

5. How can some charecters age in DC and not other. Dick has aged froma young boy to an adult while Batman is still relative to the same age when he took Grayson in. Marvel at least ages their charecters(i.e: everyone from Spiderman to the FF to the X-men).

6. How can someone who killed Superman his first outing and is supposed to never be able to be beat again the same way, lose the same way again?

7. Continuity rectones all the time. First Batman's parents killer is not caught, then he is, then he's not and now again he was caught. Last I checked history does not change over the years in real life. Marvel may come up with some pretty crappy excuses for changing things(i.e: Wanda saying No More Mutants or Wanda making a fake Magento so that the real one does not die in UXM) but for the most part, don't do a lot of rectonss.


The list goes on and on. Marvel is more grounded to the real world, while DC is a world of more fantasy.

[Mia]

Marvel stories come from the same place that those monster movies of the 50's did. That cold cold war fear. There is nothing wrong with that, and Marvel has been known in the past to put out explorary material (although I think Quesada and Kevin-Smith-wannabe-Bendis need to move on before they run the company back into the ground).

As Joseph Cambell said, the purpose of a story is to teach us how to function within our society. I've learned a lot more from Superman, Batman, even Plastic Man, than I have from Ghost Rider or The Fantastic Four.

DC's characters work on the same framework as all the old mythology... they are stories of gods living amoung mortals. The more they see their humanity through the populace, the more we see our humanity in them.

When the four-year-old boy inside me (his name is Charlie) wants to see a lot of zip bam pow, Make Mine Marvel.

When I want not only to be entertained, but also transformed, bring me four pound, medium rare t-bone straight out the DC nation.

Interesting theory. But for me it's the exact opposite. With the exception of the Batman based characters (ie. Batman, Huntress, Nightwing and Catwoman). I find that I can not relate to most of the other DCU characters. They all seem to have a sunshine view of the world. They seem to exist in a ethereal or nebulous place. Where the only scary/bad thing that happens is when some alien/freak/monster etc. attacks them Also many of the characters are two dimensional. I also find many of the DC characters and stories to be superficial.

And I don't know what Marvel books you're refering to or when was the last time you read or picked up a Marvel book. But the ones I read are far more deep and profound than simply just 'zip bam pow'. The characters are layered and textured.

I used to prefer DC over Marvel. Because for a very long time the Marvel books had gone off the rails. They seemed to forget what made them great. The books were just filled with silly stunts, shock and awe, and political correctness. But that's all seemed to be dispensed with. So I am back at Marvel.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Yet, in the Marvel World, they are totally fine with the Avengers and all the non-mutant powered people running around.

I think the DCU version of metas are far more realistic. On one side, superheroes are a pop culture phenomenon. They are basically celebrities, are always in the tabloids, looked up to by the general public, etc. On the other side of things, there are people who don't trust them, shadowy government people who spy on them, keep track of them, etc.

The world I live in must just be so different from yours, because I think it would be way more like DC. Most of the mutants these days are attractive, articulate, and have saved the world. There is *no way* there would be random bigotry towards them just because they can shoot an energy blast.



Really, no bigotry for someone who is different or just random bigotrey? Have you not heard of RACISM or SEXISM? People fear what they either don't understand or what will one day be in charge of them. Some men fear women because they believe a woman has no place being in charge of this world. Some people fears blacks because they fear that if they ever got power this country would go down the drain. People fear mutants because one day mutants will inhabit the earth. One day mutants will be the dominate species. Before the whole Wanda stuff, there were over 1 million mutants world wide. That's a huge growing population which would soon be the majority. People don't want to be ruled over by some next chain in the evolutionary branch. That's why they fear mutants.

Also the Avengers are an exception because they worked for the government for so long. Now they no longer work for the government and see how the public see's them. Also the Avengers were having problems when mutants were getting big and they had the Scarlet Witch in the group.

Spiderman and Hulk are feared. Punishered(not a meta) feared. She Hulk has been feared because of being a HUlk and only now getting acceptence because of her work for the government(i.e: a lwayer).

To me the only true exceptions are the FF because they were the 1st hero's in Marvel. They were revered as exciting movie stars. The status has not changed, until now.

So the way I see it, unless the hero's work of the government in Marvel, the public does not trust them. They don't fear the government types because they believe the government will keep them in line. May not be a smart thing to think with powerful meta's, but they say ignorence is blind.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Marvel stories come from the same place that those monster movies of the 50's did. That cold cold war fear. There is nothing wrong with that, and Marvel has been known in the past to put out explorary material (although I think Quesada and Kevin-Smith-wannabe-Bendis need to move on before they run the company back into the ground).

As Joseph Cambell said, the purpose of a story is to teach us how to function within our society. I've learned a lot more from Superman, Batman, even Plastic Man, than I have from Ghost Rider or The Fantastic Four.

DC's characters work on the same framework as all the old mythology... they are stories of gods living amoung mortals. The more they see their humanity through the populace, the more we see our humanity in them.

When the four-year-old boy inside me (his name is Charlie) wants to see a lot of zip bam pow, Make Mine Marvel.

When I want not only to be entertained, but also transformed, bring me four pound, medium rare t-bone straight out the DC nation.


HOw have you learned more from Superman and such. Superman is a boyscout who never does anything wrong and NEVER LOSES!!! HOw can you relate to someone who never loses and for the most part is perfect. In the real world no one is perfect. Bad stuff happens to good people all the time.

Also DC's hero's(with notable exceptions) and all villians(except JOker and a few others) are 1 dimensional. Meaning they have their hero side but no human side outside of the costume. Batman has no real idenity outside of Batman, Clark Kent either. They are hero's first and humans 4th or 5th. Were as Marvel, Logan and Peter Parker are Wolverine and Spiderman. They are humans first and hero's second. They were always humans before becoming hero's. It seems DC does not agnolog this. How many stories of Superman and Batman have delt with just Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent and not Superman and Batman? NOw take a look at WOlverine. So many issues deal with Logan and not Wolverine. Sure he is a hero, but he is also a human with human issues. Batman and Superman are to perfect for me. NOthing ever tragic happens to them as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent other than parents dying which is only lightly touched upon. Logan has people die all the time in his life and it consistantly touches upon it. Markio, Silver Fox, the red head from Origin and so on. These people die and he is left to deal with it as a human.

DC is about wonder and fantasy. Marvel is about realistic stories that are more down to earth and we can relate to. DC is for the superhero in us all. Nothing wrong with either one. Still each has their own image. I prefer realistic stories as opposed to stories of fantasy and wonder.

Marvel= Law and Order: SVU

DC= Cartoon Network

[longshot7]

Make Mine DC, bcause Marvel is just too confusing these days. 15 X-books? Talk about overkill......... 3 core x-men books? That's too many. Marvel was way better when Uncanny was the only x-men book. Now you need a roadmap just to figure out who's on what team.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Make Mine DC, bcause Marvel is just too confusing these days. 15 X-books? Talk about overkill......... 3 core x-men books? That's too many. Marvel was way better when Uncanny was the only x-men book. Now you need a roadmap just to figure out who's on what team.


I completly agree. The X-men are a debacle now. Although and easy solution would be for all the books to have different casts that DO NOT overlap. Also each book has a different feel. It could work if all the team rosters never overlapped.

Although DC is just as confusing as Marvel. Batman and Superman are in how many books a month just like WOlverine and Spiderman. Also DC's history is a shamble. It's impossible to follow. NOt to mention every few years it changes again.

Both companies are a disaster right now compared to how they were in the past. Independents are where its at right now for me. Also Vertigo but to me that is an independent.

[Tom]

HOw have you learned more from Superman and such. Superman is a boyscout who never does anything wrong and NEVER LOSES!!! HOw can you relate to someone who never loses and for the most part is perfect. In the real world no one is perfect. Bad stuff happens to good people all the time.


Why do so many Marvel fans try and convince DC fans that their opinions are wrong?

Newsflash: NO SUPERHERO EVER REALLY LOSES. Except for the small handful that die, but then again, very few of them stay dead for long anyway. The whole genre of superheroes can be boiled down to one maxim: The good guys will always win.

Any argument about one company being more "realistic" than the other is ludicrous. Both companies center around universes full of super powered people and demi-gods. The superhero genre is unrealistic at its starting point.

What did I learn from Superman? That if you have the ability to help people, you should. For no other reason than because you can and because it's the right thing to do. That if you are gifted and have more advantages than the people around you, you should use those gifts and advantages to help the people around you.

[Bat-Mite]

Lucifer and Constantine don't count because they are Vertigo.

They are Vertigo books that take place in the DCU. Not all Vertigo books are completely self contained. Lucifer has met and passed through Kirby's Source Wall, he has met Etrigan and the Spectre (in their books, not his no less) .Constantine has smoked pot with Zatanna and Swamp Thing, annoyed Baron Winter, the Spectre, and hanged around the Monitor's satellite in the first Crisis. They are set in the DCU.

ALso how can anyone say Checkmate is dark and gritty yet. HOw many issues have been published?

One issue, where Checkmate fights crazy religious terrorists, one agent gets killed and then they have to face corruption in the UN. It's not Power Pack.

I compared things from the Killing Joke and Batman the series because Batman is relavent today. The series continues today where as HItman is long gone(the series).

Etrigan is still around, and you dismissed the prior series with him, because the current one wasn't as grim and gritty. Again trying to have your cake and eat it?

Tell me something here. Are you here just to state and defend your very narrow and badly informed opinions with bullshit, or are you actually willing to learn something? You keep asking for proof of grim and gritty DC series, and every series you have dismissed with some bullshit reason. It's too old and is no longer being published! It's too new and there aren't many issues of it yet! It's going to be canceled soon! And in the case of Frankenstein, you have completely ignored.

So, tell me; are you actually willing to learn something, or just blindly defend your Marvel Zombie dogma against all evidence that proves it wrong? Tell me so I know if I should bother with you any longer.

[Bat-Mite]

What did I learn from Superman? That if you have the ability to help people, you should. For no other reason than because you can and because it's the right thing to do. That if you are gifted and have more advantages than the people around you, you should use those gifts and advantages to help the people around you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/Bat-Mite/applause.gif

And if you can't relate to that... you suck, Joseph Stalin!

[Kevinroc]

Yet, in the Marvel World, they are totally fine with the Avengers and all the non-mutant powered people running around.

I think the DCU version of metas are far more realistic. On one side, superheroes are a pop culture phenomenon. They are basically celebrities, are always in the tabloids, looked up to by the general public, etc. On the other side of things, there are people who don't trust them, shadowy government people who spy on them, keep track of them, etc.

The world I live in must just be so different from yours, because I think it would be way more like DC. Most of the mutants these days are attractive, articulate, and have saved the world. There is *no way* there would be random bigotry towards them just because they can shoot an energy blast.

Considering how often the population turns against Marvel's heroes at basically the drop of a hat, that's not exactly true.

Like during Busiek's Avengers run when there were mass protests outside Avengers Mansion because of The Truine Understanding. Calls of The Avengers being racist since there were no black members at the time.

The most recent FF protest (before Civil War) was during Waid's run when the FF took over Latveria.

I think this just shows that you have an unfamiliarity with the Marvel Universe.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Why do so many Marvel fans try and convince DC fans that their opinions are wrong?

Newsflash: NO SUPERHERO EVER REALLY LOSES. Except for the small handful that die, but then again, very few of them stay dead for long anyway. The whole genre of superheroes can be boiled down to one maxim: The good guys will always win.

Any argument about one company being more "realistic" than the other is ludicrous. Both companies center around universes full of super powered people and demi-gods. The superhero genre is unrealistic at its starting point.

What did I learn from Superman? That if you have the ability to help people, you should. For no other reason than because you can and because it's the right thing to do. That if you are gifted and have more advantages than the people around you, you should use those gifts and advantages to help the people around you.


Superhero's lose all the time, just look at Wolverine and the X-men:

1. Magneto got controll of Genosha, something the X-men were trying to prevent.

2. Wolverine got the crapped kicked out of him in Agent of Shield but only survived because he popped his claws and the villian saw hisreflection and turned himself to stone. To me, the villian beat himself. He had Wolverine beaten but was stupid and lost because of himself.

3. The Mutant Massacre. A stalemate at best with the X-men the worse of. Realistically the worst day in X history.

4. Reavers beat Wolverine and crucify him. He gets away but did not win.

5. Sabertooth almost killed Wolverine and left him for dead in Wolverine #10.

6. No More Mutants. X-men lose over 99% of all mutants.

7. X-men lose to Imperial Guard in Dark Phoenix saga.
Phoenix dies.

8. X-men can still not divert Days of the Future past storyline and it seems never will.

9. Genosha is destoryed killing thousands of good mutants. No retaliation from the X-men.


The list goes on and on. Marvel charecters lose as many as they win, where as DC charecters(at least the big ones) never lose.


I am glad you learned that from Superman but to me, I can learn nothing from Superman other than being perfect, which is impossible. Also is that not the same thing as with great power comes great responability?

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

They are Vertigo books that take place in the DCU. Not all Vertigo books are completely self contained. Lucifer has met and passed through Kirby's Source Wall, he has met Etrigan and the Spectre (in their books, not his no less) .Constantine has smoked pot with Zatanna and Swamp Thing, annoyed Baron Winter, the Spectre, and hanged around the Monitor's satellite in the first Crisis. They are set in the DCU.



One issue, where Checkmate fights crazy religious terrorists, one agent gets killed and then they have to face corruption in the UN. It's not Power Pack.



Etrigan is still around, and you dismissed the prior series with him, because the current one wasn't as grim and gritty. Again trying to have your cake and eat it?

Tell me something here. Are you here just to state and defend your very narrow and badly informed opinions with bullshit, or are you actually willing to learn something? You keep asking for proof of grim and gritty DC series, and every series you have dismissed with some bullshit reason. It's too old and is no longer being published! It's too new and there aren't many issues of it yet! It's going to be canceled soon! And in the case of Frankenstein, you have completely ignored.

So, tell me; are you actually willing to learn something, or just blindly defend your Marvel Zombie dogma against all evidence that proves it wrong? Tell me so I know if I should bother with you any longer.


Here is why Lucifer and Constantine don't count. Cause they only overlap with DC when it comes to certin charecters. If he is prevelent in the DC up, why were no of them in IC? Why has he never, ever crossed paths with Superman, Batman or the JLA. Both have been around the workd and back and it would be unrealistic to say not one chance of him seeing or meeting and costumed main hero in DC. These vertigo titles want it both ways. In DCU but also not in to deep. To me they are Vertigo titles just like Fables and Y: The Last Man. If there were in the DCU always, with over 300 issues together, why never once have they crossed paths with the major DC icons?

Checkmate is out for 1 issue, 1 issue. How can you tell the tone of the book from one issue? It doesn't make sence. You are saying you know from reading 20 some pages, you know how the book will go forever. Maybe it will go that way, but to say you are basically sure of it after one issue is stupid.

I never mentioned Frankenstien because I have no knowledge of the series. So I have no basis to comment on it. Again then, you have proved me wrong twice. Once with Manhunter like I said before and now with Frankenstien. Although is Frankienstien actually completly set in the DCU or is it like Constantine and Lucifer?

Etrigen to me is not a dark, grim and gritty book. From what I have read of it, it is a heck more lot like Batman than it is like Constantine(a Vertigo book, not DC.)


Also you ask if I am not willing to learn, why not look in the mirror. I have given you examples of DC being to much fantasy and less down to earth and you don't accept that, now do you?

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/Bat-Mite/applause.gif

And if you can't relate to that... you suck, Joseph Stalin!


Yet look at the real world. HOw many people who have the power to help others don't? If people actually did this then America would have basically no poverty, no homelessness, no welfare, no hunger, no abuse and so on.

To bad in the real world, people have not learned this message!

[Bat-Mite]

HOw many people who have the power to help others don't?

What the hell that has to do with anything? So some people has the means to help, but don't. Humanity is not a hive-mind, or built with templates, so they don't all have to behave the same. There are people who do have the power and help, or people who don't have any power and help anyway.

What is that supposed to prove? What the heck are you even trying to prove here?

Besides, even if your argument made sense (which it doesn't), it could be applied to practically every Marvel superhero too. Captain America is out there trying to help for no good reason other than "cause he can". Spider-Man is out there helping people cause "With great power, comes great responsibility".

I am afraid you are not making much sense here.

[Bat-Mite]

And here is my last contribution to this thread.

Here is why Lucifer and Constantine don't count. Cause they only overlap with DC when it comes to certin charecters. If he is prevelent in the DC up, why were no of them in IC?

Again with the bullshit reasons. Just because Lucifer and Constantine don't meet the JLA all that often, doesn't mean the times they do meet them go away. You cannot wave your hand and make facts go away.

Checkmate is out for 1 issue, 1 issue. How can you tell the tone of the book from one issue?

Because we already know the tone of the first issue, and nobody thinks the tone will take a 180 degrees turn in the second issue. I really doubt Amanda and Sasha are going to throw pies to each other faces to solve their problems.

Also you ask if I am not willing to learn, why not look in the mirror. I have given you examples of DC being to much fantasy and less down to earth and you don't accept that, now do you?

When the hell have I said that the DCU is not fantasy? what you asked for is proof of DCU series that are grim and gritty, and I gave you several examples. I have never claimed that the DCU is "realistic" (ALSO: The Marvel Universe is not realistic either, for that matter) because in the end of the day, both universes are about guys in pajamas shooting lasers out of their eyes having adventures, and there is nothing "realistic" about that. To be honest, I have not read much of the posts you made not directed at me, but from what I saw, you are trying to prove that the DCU is less "realistic" by taking one example of something "unrealistic" from it (which is very easy to find, since it has never been realistic) and comparing it to something you believe is "realistic" in the Marvel Universe. For that matter I could take a scene from a grim and gritty DCU book and compare it to some silly scene from Power Pack.

Now, if you want to keep doing that, go ahead, but I don't want to participate anymore.

[shaxper]

Seriously guys, chill out. I love DC more than Marvel and all, but they're just comic books...

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

What the hell that has to do with anything? So some people has the means to help, but don't. Humanity is not a hive-mind, or built with templates, so they don't all have to behave the same. There are people who do have the power and help, or people who don't have any power and help anyway.

What is that supposed to prove? What the heck are you even trying to prove here?

Besides, even if your argument made sense (which it doesn't), it could be applied to practically every Marvel superhero too. Captain America is out there trying to help for no good reason other than "cause he can". Spider-Man is out there helping people cause "With great power, comes great responsibility".

I am afraid you are not making much sense here.


Dude chill out. The comment was not tied to anything about this thread. It was just an observation I have made about life.

Just like your comment about Joesph Stalin... no basis about the topic at hand.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

And here is my last contribution to this thread.



Again with the bullshit reasons. Just because Lucifer and Constantine don't meet the JLA all that often, doesn't mean the times they do meet them go away. You cannot wave your hand and make facts go away.



Because we already know the tone of the first issue, and nobody thinks the tone will take a 180 degrees turn in the second issue. I really doubt Amanda and Sasha are going to throw pies to each other faces to solve their problems.



When the hell have I said that the DCU is not fantasy? what you asked for is proof of DCU series that are grim and gritty, and I gave you several examples. I have never claimed that the DCU is "realistic" (ALSO: The Marvel Universe is not realistic either, for that matter) because in the end of the day, both universes are about guys in pajamas shooting lasers out of their eyes having adventures, and there is nothing "realistic" about that. To be honest, I have not read much of the posts you made not directed at me, but from what I saw, you are trying to prove that the DCU is less "realistic" by taking one example of something "unrealistic" from it (which is very easy to find, since it has never been realistic) and comparing it to something you believe is "realistic" in the Marvel Universe. For that matter I could take a scene from a grim and gritty DCU book and compare it to some silly scene from Power Pack.

Now, if you want to keep doing that, go ahead, but I don't want to participate anymore.


I am not saying have it both ways, DC is. Constantine never crosses over with anyone other than the mystics. He never takes notice to things like NO Man's Land, Idenity Crisis and so on. He only takes notcie when it benifits thier book. DC wants it both ways. They want him for a part of the time to reside in DCU but other in his own universe. Do you see how I won't take this as a DC book. Cause half the time it goes with DC continuity and the other half it goes by it own continuity. Can you not see that?

Bull crap, no one other than DC knows the direction of a book that has only been out one issue. What if after 4 issues, sales are crap, so DC does a total revamp and changes everything. It may become a dark and gritty book but 1 issue in means nothing. Hell just look at the X-men one issue in. NO fear or hate from the government or people. Although soon enough it changes and everyone hates mutants and fears them. Can you not see how basing everything off of 1, just 1 issues is not half retarted, but completly retarted?

Yes Marvel has books like the Power Pack but they are the exception. Marvel is more rooted in reality, while DC far and away is rooted in fantasy. That has been MY point from the start when someone said DC was more realistic than Marvel. If you are going to jump into a conversation mid way through, you should read what was said before hand. ALthough I have been guilty of the later myself.

My point to you is I do not consider DC books to be more grim and gritty(reality based) than Marvel books. Excluding the ones you mention that I did not take notice of like Manhunter, FRankenstien(never read). Checkmate is 1 issue in and to me, to new to base anything off of. Etrigen to me is a lot more like Batman than as gritty and realistic as Wolverine or some of the X-men stuff. Lastly, Constantine and Lucifer are under what company, DC or Vertigo? They are an adult line, just like Punisher Max. They are geared to adults and do not directly tie into the DCU(unless its one of the few times someone wants it to. Which is crap by the way. It can't be both). The only way they are affiliated with the DCU is because DC owns Vertigo. Just like Marvel owns Max but no way do I consider Punisher part of this discussion.

I have admitted when I have been wrong, why can't you?

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Seriously guys, chill out. I love DC more than Marvel and all, but they're just comic books...

Chill about what? This is a discussion about comics. It gets heated because both of us are very passinate about what we think. Nothing more. No heat, no animosity.

[10xPete]

I like DC just because they have more characters that I like. Most of the JLA and their younger counter parts are all just awesome. Marvel doesn't have as many characters that rock like that. I do love many Marvel characters just not as many as DC's.

[shaxper]

Chill about what? This is a discussion about comics. It gets heated because both of us are very passinate about what we think. Nothing more. No heat, no animosity.

Glad to hear

[Tom]

Superhero's lose all the time, just look at Wolverine and the X-men:

1. Magneto got controll of Genosha, something the X-men were trying to prevent.

2. Wolverine got the crapped kicked out of him in Agent of Shield but only survived because he popped his claws and the villian saw hisreflection and turned himself to stone. To me, the villian beat himself. He had Wolverine beaten but was stupid and lost because of himself.

3. The Mutant Massacre. A stalemate at best with the X-men the worse of. Realistically the worst day in X history.

4. Reavers beat Wolverine and crucify him. He gets away but did not win.

5. Sabertooth almost killed Wolverine and left him for dead in Wolverine #10.

6. No More Mutants. X-men lose over 99% of all mutants.

7. X-men lose to Imperial Guard in Dark Phoenix saga.
Phoenix dies.

8. X-men can still not divert Days of the Future past storyline and it seems never will.

9. Genosha is destoryed killing thousands of good mutants. No retaliation from the X-men.


The list goes on and on. Marvel charecters lose as many as they win, where as DC characters(at least the big ones) never lose.Nonsense. Both companies always have gigantic megastories with high death counts. At the end, all the major characters are still left standing and the threat is defeated or chased off to fight another day.
I am glad you learned that from Superman but to me, I can learn nothing from Superman other than being perfect, which is impossible.That's because you're not a fan. The character doesn't speak to you. There are tons of characters that don't speak to me but I can see they're great characters. Most of the major Marvel characters, for instance. It comes down to a matter of taste and trying to tell people they're taste is wrong is a fool's errand.
Also is that not the same thing as with great power comes great responability?
Yeah, and he predates the guy by 25 years. How 'bout that?

[Suzanne]

What have you read from Marvel?X-Men several years ago and the occasional Spidergirl when Pat Olliffe was drawing. I followed the Spiderman arc where Mary Jane was missing and later presumed dead, but I didn't buy those issues.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Nonsense. Both companies always have gigantic megastories with high death counts. At the end, all the major characters are still left standing and the threat is defeated or chased off to fight another day.
That's because you're not a fan. The character doesn't speak to you. There are tons of characters that don't speak to me but I can see they're great characters. Most of the major Marvel characters, for instance. It comes down to a matter of taste and trying to tell people they're taste is wrong is a fool's errand.

Yeah, and he predates the guy by 25 years. How 'bout that?


The funny thing is, besides HOuse of M I mentioned, those were not mega stories. They were just regular X-men stories. Meanign the norm for the book. Which shows for the norm, they lose just as much as they win. AT the end of the day, the X-men lose a battle and have to deal with the outcome, while the JLA and DC for the most part win out at the end of the day and celebrate.

Oh my gosh, I had no idea Superman came before Spiderman:rolleyes:

My point was obviously if Superman gets to you, so should Spiderman. ALthough to get Spiderman does not mean you get Superman.

Also I never ever said Superman isn't a great charecter, he's one of the best. GIve me a Superman movie, a Superman one shot and I am great. The problem comes when you have a monthly series and the hero is doing the same thing over and over and over again basically. Here's an example:

1. A villian starts destroying Metropolis.
2. Superman comes to the rescue.
3. Superman gets beat down at first.
4. Superman comes back and knocks the crap out of the villian.
5. Superman saves the day and the villian is defeated.

How many times can this be done and is still exciting. Once, twice, three or even ten times, but not month to month. There are no worries for the fans because Superman always wins out in the end. He is never in any real danger.

[CPT Space Bomb]

I don't like DC more than Marvel. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I like the gritty nature of Marvel better than DC's colorful and joyful world. (Batman is the most Marvel Like DC comic around, must be why I like it.)

[titanfan]

My point was obviously if Superman gets to you, so should Spiderman. ALthough to get Spiderman does not mean you get Superman.

Ok--I haven't read a Spiderman issue in over 5 years, although I know the big plot points of his book just from following comics.

To me, the characters are nothing like each other. Like you said, Spiderman is more the "human" take of things. There are so many times when I would want to shout to Peter Parker: "Fight back! Get a spine and stop being such a stupid whiner!" Ultimately, both heroes would get the resolve to beat their respective villains, but it Peter Parker seemed so angsty. (as Peter Parker, not as Spider Man)

Imho, the closest thing DC has to "Spider Man" would be the Chuck Dixon Nightwing.

[unkiedev]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but this sems like the appropriate place.

On the Review of 52 #2 it was listing "Key Players" and the first key player was Ralph Dibney. Only in DC is there a comic book staring somebody named Ralph Dibney (I know who the guy is, it's just funny).

MAKE MINE MARVEL!!

[Mia]

I don't like DC more than Marvel. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I like the gritty nature of Marvel better than DC's colorful and joyful world. (Batman is the most Marvel Like DC comic around, must be why I like it.)


Yep I agree. Sometimes I wish he wish he was one of their properties instead of DC's. You know I was reminded the other day of a filthy saying Joe Quesada made about DC's treatment of Batman (I'll rely on someone else to post it 'cause I'm too modest). And when I first heard it was disgusted. But now I really see that he does have a point.

[Tom]

My point was obviously if Superman gets to you, so should Spiderman.
This is such a self-evidently ridiculous statement that nothing else you post needs to be replied to. You cannot tell people what they "should" like. It's futile. Crazy people do that.

[Bat-Mite]

Personally, I have never understood the people who say Batman is a "Marvel character".

Why? Cause he is angsty? Sure he has angst, but not the same type of angst Spider-Man has, or Iron Man has.

Spider-Man has normal people angst. Spider-Man is angsty because his boss is a jerk, his wife gives him the cold shoulder, because his superhero life ruins his normal life, or because aunt May made too many pies... stuff like that. Peter Parker is, despite his powers, one of the guys. Batman's angst is different, he is angsty because he is possibly absolutely crazy. He is ansgty because the responsibility of saving everyone every night he has given himself. Batman doesn't have normal guy problems, he has archetypal Goth King of the Night Angst.

I assume when they say "Marvel character" they mean basically someone like Spider-Man, Iron-Man or Daredevil: people who are in their personality normal guys. Mind you, I find that personally silly, since not every "Marvel character" fits that description, and a lot of DC character are normal guys. Captain America and Reed Richards are not normal guys -for example-, no matter how you look at them.

No, Batman has that archetypal and mythological "greater than thou" aura around him that mostly characterizes the DC Big 7. He is DC through and true.

[Thnikkaman]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but this sems like the appropriate place.

On the Review of 52 #2 it was listing "Key Players" and the first key player was Ralph Dibney. Only in DC is there a comic book staring somebody named Ralph Dibney (I know who the guy is, it's just funny).

MAKE MINE MARVEL!!

Yeah, they need much more realistic names like "Willie Lumpkin".

[Mia]

Personally, I have never understood the people who say Batman is a "Marvel character".

Why? Cause he is angsty? Sure he has angst, but not the same type of angst Spider-Man has, or Iron Man has.

Spider-Man has normal people angst. Spider-Man is angsty because his boss is a jerk, his wife gives him the cold shoulder, because his superhero life ruins his normal life, or because aunt May made too many pies... stuff like that. Peter Parker is, despite his powers, one of the guys. Batman's angst is different, he is angsty because he is possibly absolutely crazy. He is ansgty because the responsibility of saving everyone every night he has given himself. Batman doesn't have normal guy problems, he has archetypal Goth King of the Night Angst.

I assume when they say "Marvel character" they mean basically someone like Spider-Man, Iron-Man or Daredevil: people who are in their personality normal guys. Mind you, I find that personally silly, since not every "Marvel character" fits that description, and a lot of DC character are normal guys. Captain America and Reed Richards are not normal guys -for example-, no matter how you look at them.

No, Batman has that archetypal and mythological "greater than thou" aura around him that mostly characterizes the DC Big 7. He is DC through and true.

No they say that Batman is a Marvel character because he's more 'couched and grounded in reality like many Marvel characters. He has many sides and layers. Which is missing from many DC characters. I see nothing mythological or 'greater than thou' about Batman at all.

[Bat-Mite]

'couched and grounded in reality like many Marvel characters.

Explain how someone bitten by a radioactive Spider is "grounded in reality." Also explain how the freaking Fantastic Four also fit that description, if you think they do.

He has many sides and layers.

Good characterization is not Marvel's monopoly.

[Mia]

I guess you don't understand what the term 'couched in reality' means then.

[Bat-Mite]

If you are incapable of stating what you mean when you say that Spider-Man is "grounded in reality", then neither do you I suppose.

[CPT Space Bomb]

Here is the basic breakdown.

Marvel: "House of Ideas" Gritty, dark, somewhat realistic at times, some "happy" characters, but not many, faced with problems that are generally feasable.

DC: "Comapany of Capes", overpowered, bright, extremely bad use of costume design and colors, cheerful, face problems that are not even close to feasable, have one worthy 'street leveler'(Batman), glorifies itself too much.

[Ultraman Max]

I like larger than life, weird, way-out, or pop-arty stuff intermixed with mythology or heroic fiction and the two companies tend to have periods where they offer more of that than the other. Going back to the mid-eighties or so DC seems to do such more consistantly than Marvel has in a while (save for Nextwave). DC also has a few more character concepts that I find more appealing and some of my favorite Marvel characters (like Thor) have pretty much dissappeared or have been relagated to the occassional guest spot, so that tends to skew things. However whatever loyalty I have to any given character doesn't prevent me from dropping a book when they go into a direction I don't like and picking up something from somebody else (be it Marvel, Image, Dark Horse or whoever).


I'm a little perplexed at some of what I've been reading in this thread though, wishing a character had a different coporate owner so you didn't have to buy another brand seems a bit on the extreme side, IMO.

[Suzanne]

DC:....bright, extremely bad use of costume design and colors, cheerful, face problems that are not even close to feasable, have one worthy 'street leveler'(Batman), glorifies itself too much.That's odd, 'cause after reading JLA/Avengers, "bad costume design and colors" were quite prevelant on the Marvel side :p

I don't understand this bull either where one approach is wrong and the other right. I think both perspectives are vaild. It's likely that these characters would be hated and feared if they actually existed. Along the same token they could be loved and adored given our country's hero and celebrity worship, especially after 9/11. It's really a matter of preference and opinion.

[J'onn J'onzz]

DC: "Comapany of Capes", overpowered, bright, extremely bad use of costume design and colors, cheerful, face problems that are not even close to feasable, have one worthy 'street leveler'(Batman), glorifies itself too much.

I wouldn't call Infinite Crisis bright or cheerful in any way.

[LibrarianThorne]

Sure, DC is bright and cheery if the only thing you've ever seen is the Superfriends.

Did everyone just, I dunno, forget the Death of Superman? Knightfall? Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis?

DC is not always bright and cheery. Sure, there's characters like those in the JLI/Superbuddies, but (much like Marvel) humor and lighthearted stories aren't the only stories being told.

Me, I like DC for two reasons.

1. The generations of superheroes. There's this tapestry and timeline of superheroes and the extraordinary in the DCU that the MU just can't compete with. Stories like the JSA saving the day in World War II and then retiring due to HUAC, only to come back later and guide the second generation of heroes. Batman and Robin. Superman and Superboy. Alan Scott and all of the other Earth Green Lanterns. There are generations of heroes in DC, successive stories of heroes taking up the mantle of their forebears in the never-ending battle for truth and justice. All the way through the Legion of Superheroes and the Justice Legion A.

2. DC stories are simply more epic than Marvel stories. Yes, Marvel has great cosmic stories in the Infinity Gauntlet and Secret Wars and tons of other universe spanning crossovers, but they just don't feel as big as DC's big crossovers like the two Crises, or Death of Superman/World Without a Superman/The Return of Superman. In Marvel, the fate of Earth or millions of people is on the line. In DC, the fate of the entire cosmos and every living thing is at stake, and no matter the challenge or the deterrent, heroes like Batman and Nightwing and Connor Hawke and Olliver Queen will step up. I mean, heck, look at Grant Morrison's run on JLA. They started out with the entire Earth in peril and went up from there, ending with Mageddon and fighting the end of time/space itself. To quote a certain EiC, DC is full of "big damn heroes" and I love them for it.

Also, to refute an earlier statement, DC has plenty of fleshed out villains besides the Joker, it's just that tons of people don't give those villains (or the heroes that fight them) a shot. Look at Lex Luthor, the prototype supervillain. Here's a billionaire industrialist who fights Superman not because of some outmoded desire for vengeance, no. Luthor fights Superman for in Superman does Luthor see the end of humanity's dreams. The end of humanity's achievements. And Luthor's pride will not let him be looked down on by some alien demigod.

That's a great angle for a villain, possibly the best in DC. Then you've got guys like Darkseid, a cosmic baddie who has the ability to, at whim, annihilate everyone who stands in his way, but doesn't because of his desire to conquer. He will rule all creation not because of his own tremendous might but through every living thing bending to his will. He will not exterminate what he could conquer. And then there's all of the other villains. Guys like Captain Cold, Professor Zoom, Fatality, Prometheus, etc.

Big damn bad guys to fight the big damn heroes.

[Mia]

If you are incapable of stating what you mean when you say that Spider-Man is "grounded in reality", then neither do you I suppose.


Oh I'm capable. However since, thus far, you've been unable to grasp the concept from what I and others have already explained from numorous posts. Expounding further would be a complete waste of time.

[Kevinroc]

Personally, I have never understood the people who say Batman is a "Marvel character".

Why? Cause he is angsty? Sure he has angst, but not the same type of angst Spider-Man has, or Iron Man has.

Spider-Man has normal people angst. Spider-Man is angsty because his boss is a jerk, his wife gives him the cold shoulder, because his superhero life ruins his normal life, or because aunt May made too many pies... stuff like that. Peter Parker is, despite his powers, one of the guys. Batman's angst is different, he is angsty because he is possibly absolutely crazy. He is ansgty because the responsibility of saving everyone every night he has given himself. Batman doesn't have normal guy problems, he has archetypal Goth King of the Night Angst.

I assume when they say "Marvel character" they mean basically someone like Spider-Man, Iron-Man or Daredevil: people who are in their personality normal guys. Mind you, I find that personally silly, since not every "Marvel character" fits that description, and a lot of DC character are normal guys. Captain America and Reed Richards are not normal guys -for example-, no matter how you look at them.

No, Batman has that archetypal and mythological "greater than thou" aura around him that mostly characterizes the DC Big 7. He is DC through and true.

Batman isn't just JLA "Big 7," Batman is arguably the most popular hero in the DCU. The only DC character comparable to Batman in terms of popularity is Superman.

But Batman is literally DC Comics. After all, they are "Detective Comics Comics" (although having "comics" in their name twice is a little on the redundent side).

If anything, most DC characters don't fit in the mold of Batman. The DCU was built around Superman but Batman is probably DC's most popular character.

But then, DC's stable of heroes are supposed to be more diverse.

It's kind of like how some people say that Captain America is too much like a "DC hero" despite the fact that he is one of Marvel's oldest characters. In many ways, much of Marvel was built around Captain America. That's why in the JLA/ Avengers crossover, it was Captain America and Superman that felt most strongly about what had happened because their respective universes were built around them.

Why can't companies have a more diverse stable of heroes? Not every character can fit into that Batman/ Superman/ Spider-Man mode.

DC has such diverse characters as Batman and Superman.

Marvel has such diverse characters as Spider-Man and The Hulk.

[Bat-Mite]

Oh I'm capable. However since, thus far, you've been unable to grasp the concept from what I and others have already explained from numerous posts. Expounding further would be a complete waste of time.


Nobody has explained it. And if it had been explained then a short copy and paste would suffice. Face it, you have no clue how both Batman and Spider-Man are "grounded in reality" or what that means, and you are not fooling anybody but yourself with the whole "Oh no, I will not waste my time explaining my dumb statements" posturing.

[Bat-Mite]

Why can't companies have a more diverse stable of heroes? Not every character can fit into that Batman/ Superman/ Spider-Man mode.

DC has such diverse characters as Batman and Superman.

Marvel has such diverse characters as Spider-Man and The Hulk.


Totally agreed.

But I was working under the assumption that when people say "Marvel character" they mean someone like Spider-Man, even though there are many characters in the Marvel Universe that are different in every way from him.

[Mia]

Nobody has explained it. And if it had been explained then a short copy and paste would suffice. Face it, you have no clue how both Batman and Spider-Man are "grounded in reality" or what that means, and you are not fooling anybody but yourself with the whole "Oh no, I will not waste my time explaining my dumb statements" posturing.


No I'm not fooling anyone here. Just you, since you and you alone here seem to be the only person who hasn't a clue what the term means. A simple perusal of the the above posts and people laying out why they like Marvel comics would give you a clear idea as to what the term couched or grounded in reality means. But you seem unable to do even that.

The momment I read your post saying:

Explain how someone bitten by a radioactive Spider is "grounded in reality."

I knew that you hadn't a clue as to what anyone here was talking about. And providing a thorough explanation would be a waste of time and an excercise in futility. You don't get it period.

[Bat-Mite]

No I'm not fooling anyone here.

Finally, a statement I agree with.

you alone here seem to be the only person who hasn't a clue what the term means.

I know what the term means, but I don't see how it applies to Spider-Man. That's what I am asking for. And since you seem incapable of putting that to words, you are as clueless about that as I am.

I knew that you hadn't a clue as to what anyone here was talking about.

Oh, I agree. I have no clue, that's why I am asking. If I had a clue I wouldn't need to ask, now would I? Frankly, I am convinced I am not the only one here clueless about that, but it is probably because Spider-Man is as grounded in reality as much as any other guy in pajamas bitten by radioactive arachnids can be, which is not much at all.

[Kevinroc]

Totally agreed.

But I was working under the assumption that when people say "Marvel character" they mean someone like Spider-Man, even though there are many characters in the Marvel Universe that are different in every way from him.

Spider-Man is Marvel's biggest character so it isn't strange that when someone says "Marvel character" Spider-Man is the first character that comes to mind.

But the Marvel Universe has tons of other characters not like Spider-Man. Hulk, Captain America, Silver Surfer, Thor, Wolverine. All characters who are not like Spider-Man.

Just like DC is more than just Batman and Superman. Characters that were either created specifically for DC (or National or whatever they were calling themselves in those days) such as Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkman or characters DC bought up from other companies like The Question or Captain Atom.

[Erebus]

It's kind of wrong to assume that DC is bright and cheery, while Marvel is dark and grim. Even in the beginning, it wasn't like that. Silver age Namor was a cheery guy who was always quoting the famous celebrities who were living. The early Superman comics had him killing villains left and right.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Ok--I haven't read a Spiderman issue in over 5 years, although I know the big plot points of his book just from following comics.

To me, the characters are nothing like each other. Like you said, Spiderman is more the "human" take of things. There are so many times when I would want to shout to Peter Parker: "Fight back! Get a spine and stop being such a stupid whiner!" Ultimately, both heroes would get the resolve to beat their respective villains, but it Peter Parker seemed so angsty. (as Peter Parker, not as Spider Man)

Imho, the closest thing DC has to "Spider Man" would be the Chuck Dixon Nightwing.


Yet in the real world, not everyone has a spine so called. In real life people get pushed around everyday by bullies. I bet you probobly have at least once in your life. Peter Parker is just like every kid who has been picked on in life. Everyone has been picked on and not fought back. Its HUMAN nature.

[Citizen V]

DC is just doing things better than Marvel,from its events to how their characters are portrayed.I also think that DC is a bit more honest with the comic fans.Marvel may promise hype,and not deliver.But i belive DC has lived up to its hopes and expetations.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

This is such a self-evidently ridiculous statement that nothing else you post needs to be replied to. You cannot tell people what they "should" like. It's futile. Crazy people do that.


Well since you took MY post out of context, gee I wonder how it wouldn't sound crazy. The point was that is someone who uinderstand Superman because of his philosophy "help other because you have the power to" should also be able to understand Spider-man and his philosophy "with great power comes great responsibility." Cause in that aspect they are the same. He stated he learned that from Superman and so it seems logical that he would learn the same thing from Spiderman. Where as all I learned from Superman is that he is perfect and he never loses.

If taken in context, it should not be that hard to follow.:rolleyes:

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Personally, I have never understood the people who say Batman is a "Marvel character".

Why? Cause he is angsty? Sure he has angst, but not the same type of angst Spider-Man has, or Iron Man has.

Spider-Man has normal people angst. Spider-Man is angsty because his boss is a jerk, his wife gives him the cold shoulder, because his superhero life ruins his normal life, or because aunt May made too many pies... stuff like that. Peter Parker is, despite his powers, one of the guys. Batman's angst is different, he is angsty because he is possibly absolutely crazy. He is ansgty because the responsibility of saving everyone every night he has given himself. Batman doesn't have normal guy problems, he has archetypal Goth King of the Night Angst.

I assume when they say "Marvel character" they mean basically someone like Spider-Man, Iron-Man or Daredevil: people who are in their personality normal guys. Mind you, I find that personally silly, since not every "Marvel character" fits that description, and a lot of DC character are normal guys. Captain America and Reed Richards are not normal guys -for example-, no matter how you look at them.

No, Batman has that archetypal and mythological "greater than thou" aura around him that mostly characterizes the DC Big 7. He is DC through and true.


Got to agree 100%, Batman is far from being a Marvel guy. I think the poster ment that because he was darker than say Superman/GL/Flash he is Marvel. ALthough his philosophy of no killing no matter what makes him not fit into the Marvel U. He would have to many problems with people like Logan, Hulk, Cable and what not. He would not stand for hero's who kill and it would be a train wreck.

Also his charecterization of just being Batman and not Bruce Wayne makes him a DCU boy through and through. Bruce is defined by being Batman, just like Clark being Superman, not the other way around. Logan is charecterized by being Logan. DC puts hero's first, humanity second. Marvel is reverse.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

I like larger than life, weird, way-out, or pop-arty stuff intermixed with mythology or heroic fiction and the two companies tend to have periods where they offer more of that than the other. Going back to the mid-eighties or so DC seems to do such more consistantly than Marvel has in a while (save for Nextwave). DC also has a few more character concepts that I find more appealing and some of my favorite Marvel characters (like Thor) have pretty much dissappeared or have been relagated to the occassional guest spot, so that tends to skew things. However whatever loyalty I have to any given character doesn't prevent me from dropping a book when they go into a direction I don't like and picking up something from somebody else (be it Marvel, Image, Dark Horse or whoever).


I'm a little perplexed at some of what I've been reading in this thread though, wishing a character had a different coporate owner so you didn't have to buy another brand seems a bit on the extreme side, IMO.


I like the way you think about not reading because something is by DC or Marvel but because it is good. ALthough personally right now, for me, the majority of both companies suck. Marvel and DC has some bright moments in Planet Hulk/ Day of Vengence/Teen Titans/ Wolverine stand alones/Silver Surfer/Nova. For me it is Punisher Max(don't consider MU), Vertigo(don't consider DCU) and Conan and Walking Dead. If MU could get as good as the 80's X-men and DC get into the second generation then comics from the big 2 would be great for me.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Sure, DC is bright and cheery if the only thing you've ever seen is the Superfriends.

Did everyone just, I dunno, forget the Death of Superman? Knightfall? Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis?

DC is not always bright and cheery. Sure, there's characters like those in the JLI/Superbuddies, but (much like Marvel) humor and lighthearted stories aren't the only stories being told.

Me, I like DC for two reasons.

1. The generations of superheroes. There's this tapestry and timeline of superheroes and the extraordinary in the DCU that the MU just can't compete with. Stories like the JSA saving the day in World War II and then retiring due to HUAC, only to come back later and guide the second generation of heroes. Batman and Robin. Superman and Superboy. Alan Scott and all of the other Earth Green Lanterns. There are generations of heroes in DC, successive stories of heroes taking up the mantle of their forebears in the never-ending battle for truth and justice. All the way through the Legion of Superheroes and the Justice Legion A.

2. DC stories are simply more epic than Marvel stories. Yes, Marvel has great cosmic stories in the Infinity Gauntlet and Secret Wars and tons of other universe spanning crossovers, but they just don't feel as big as DC's big crossovers like the two Crises, or Death of Superman/World Without a Superman/The Return of Superman. In Marvel, the fate of Earth or millions of people is on the line. In DC, the fate of the entire cosmos and every living thing is at stake, and no matter the challenge or the deterrent, heroes like Batman and Nightwing and Connor Hawke and Olliver Queen will step up. I mean, heck, look at Grant Morrison's run on JLA. They started out with the entire Earth in peril and went up from there, ending with Mageddon and fighting the end of time/space itself. To quote a certain EiC, DC is full of "big damn heroes" and I love them for it.

Also, to refute an earlier statement, DC has plenty of fleshed out villains besides the Joker, it's just that tons of people don't give those villains (or the heroes that fight them) a shot. Look at Lex Luthor, the prototype supervillain. Here's a billionaire industrialist who fights Superman not because of some outmoded desire for vengeance, no. Luthor fights Superman for in Superman does Luthor see the end of humanity's dreams. The end of humanity's achievements. And Luthor's pride will not let him be looked down on by some alien demigod.

That's a great angle for a villain, possibly the best in DC. Then you've got guys like Darkseid, a cosmic baddie who has the ability to, at whim, annihilate everyone who stands in his way, but doesn't because of his desire to conquer. He will rule all creation not because of his own tremendous might but through every living thing bending to his will. He will not exterminate what he could conquer. And then there's all of the other villains. Guys like Captain Cold, Professor Zoom, Fatality, Prometheus, etc.

Big damn bad guys to fight the big damn heroes.


1. Darksied is a pussy through and through. He used to be a badass but DC has jobbed him out as bad as Apocolypse. Darkseid has also become a one dimensional villian as of late. Plus even before he was never as fleshed out as the JOker.

2. Luther has been fleshed out more since when he first came around but still not like the JOker. To me Lex comes off to much like a guy who wants to run the world, which is basically true. Superman aside, he wants to rule and have power. Only when fighting Superman does his charecter flesh out more.

3. Joker is the most fleshed out DC charecter. A guy who has gone completly insane because of a wife's death, never being able to get a laugh as a comedian(which now all he does is laugh), having deformed looks thanks to something he did not want to do. Just like he said, one bad day can make anyone go crazy. Depending upon how bad the day is, it can cause someone to go insane. This guy has so many layers of crazy and not just crazy but insane its sometimes awe inspiring.

4. The generational hero's is why I am loving DC. Although its being wasted by never having the current guys who have been around forever step aside. To talk more about this see my other post about DC wasting 2nd and 3rd generation hero's.


When it comes down to it, DC has made almost all villians be one dimensional, where as Marvel villians have many layers to them. Can you honestly say DC has better villians when looking at the list? Seriously?

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Batman isn't just JLA "Big 7," Batman is arguably the most popular hero in the DCU. The only DC character comparable to Batman in terms of popularity is Superman.

But Batman is literally DC Comics. After all, they are "Detective Comics Comics" (although having "comics" in their name twice is a little on the redundent side).

If anything, most DC characters don't fit in the mold of Batman. The DCU was built around Superman but Batman is probably DC's most popular character.

But then, DC's stable of heroes are supposed to be more diverse.

It's kind of like how some people say that Captain America is too much like a "DC hero" despite the fact that he is one of Marvel's oldest characters. In many ways, much of Marvel was built around Captain America. That's why in the JLA/ Avengers crossover, it was Captain America and Superman that felt most strongly about what had happened because their respective universes were built around them.

Why can't companies have a more diverse stable of heroes? Not every character can fit into that Batman/ Superman/ Spider-Man mode.

DC has such diverse characters as Batman and Superman.

Marvel has such diverse characters as Spider-Man and The Hulk.


Batman may be more popular but DC is built around Superman. Superman is what DC is all about, not Batman. Superman, a hero who always does right, always wins, always stands up for himself and at the end of the day saves the world. That is what DC is about.

Marvel is not about Captin America and frankly it never was. To me if anything it was about Spiderman but not really having an idenity until the X came around. Now Marvel is about people who get picked on because they are different. People who have felt alone at one time or another. Who have felt different, an outsider. That is what Marvel is today. About being accepted somewhere even when the whole world thinks you are a freak.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Nobody has explained it. And if it had been explained then a short copy and paste would suffice. Face it, you have no clue how both Batman and Spider-Man are "grounded in reality" or what that means, and you are not fooling anybody but yourself with the whole "Oh no, I will not waste my time explaining my dumb statements" posturing.


If this is not the pot calling the kettle black. You basically said the same thing to me. If you are going to say something like this comment to someone, then how can you not accept it if someone else says it to you?:rolleyes:

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

DC is just doing things better than Marvel,from its events to how their characters are portrayed.I also think that DC is a bit more honest with the comic fans.Marvel may promise hype,and not deliver.But i belive DC has lived up to its hopes and expetations.

HOw on earth can you say IC and Idenitdy Crisis lived up to all the hype. So you believe IC to be the most imporant and best read since COIE some 20 years ago? Are you freaking serious?:confused:

Don't kid yourself, now a days DC and Marvel both blow with the crossovers. They both hype crossovers as the biggest thing ever and never deliver. HOw was IC the biggest thing in 20 some years? All it did was basically reset Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman back to how they were after the first crisis. NOt ground breaking by any means.

House of M was a disaster because other than Wolverine's memory, everythihng went back to the status quo. DC and Marvel have basically reset their universes back to how they were in the past.

Plus DC is very dihonest with their readers. First it was everything for over a year was leading to Idenity Crisis. Then it was wait... all that leads into IC which all you need to understand it is the 7 minis, which was a lie. THen wait.... IC was only a lead into 52. Wait.. all that was only a lead into OYL. DC has consistantly built things up as this being the end of the big build upi and yet when its time to end it, they say wait.... there is more. Marvel is not honest either. Just don't be a fool and believe the DC houllier than thou attitude.

[Paul Newell]

Guys, keep the pissing match out of the discussion please.

Face it, you're arguing that "My Multi-National Corporation can beat up your Multi-National Corporation!"
A discussion I hate intensely, so, if it continues, I'll happily close the thread.

[The Shadow]

Marvel may promise hype,and not deliver.But i belive DC has lived up to its hopes and expetations.
I don't think DC lived up to any of the hype with Identity Crisis... biggest cop-out ending in years.

Infinite Crisis didn't do much of anything except make Batman happy and bring a few, almost non-existant elements into the DCU (like the Tangent stuff).

Or it's promises that the 4 Countdown mini's would all be self-contained... One word "SACRFICE" and that promise os debunked.

[LibrarianThorne]

1. Darksied is a pussy through and through. He used to be a badass but DC has jobbed him out as bad as Apocolypse. Darkseid has also become a one dimensional villian as of late. Plus even before he was never as fleshed out as the JOker.

2. Luther has been fleshed out more since when he first came around but still not like the JOker. To me Lex comes off to much like a guy who wants to run the world, which is basically true. Superman aside, he wants to rule and have power. Only when fighting Superman does his charecter flesh out more.

3. Joker is the most fleshed out DC charecter. A guy who has gone completly insane because of a wife's death, never being able to get a laugh as a comedian(which now all he does is laugh), having deformed looks thanks to something he did not want to do. Just like he said, one bad day can make anyone go crazy. Depending upon how bad the day is, it can cause someone to go insane. This guy has so many layers of crazy and not just crazy but insane its sometimes awe inspiring.

4. The generational hero's is why I am loving DC. Although its being wasted by never having the current guys who have been around forever step aside. To talk more about this see my other post about DC wasting 2nd and 3rd generation hero's.


When it comes down to it, DC has made almost all villians be one dimensional, where as Marvel villians have many layers to them. Can you honestly say DC has better villians when looking at the list? Seriously?

Okay, you like the Killign Joke. I get that, I like it too. Liked it so nice I bought it twice, in fact.

But, outside of The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum, what depth has been given to the Joker? All the Joker is is a raving homicidal lunatic. All he's done for the last twenty years is kill. Admittedly in many different ways and to many different people, but there's not a lot of depth given to him besides that given in Arkham Asylum and Killing Joke. He murders people because he thinks it's funny/sees no value in their continued existence. Joker's a great bad guy, sure enough, but he's never been my cup of tea.

I enjoy characters with a little bit more character depth, myself. Guys like Lex Luthor and Darkseid and (to use a Marvel character) Doctor Doom. Guys who, on the surface of things, are about as one dimensional as you can get (evil businessman, evil conqueror, and evil dictator, respectively).

But if you go beyond the surface, there's more there. Doom is evil because he knows he can lead the world better than anyone else, and is only viewed as evil because the heroes oppose him. It's been shown at least two times that when Doom does rule the world, the Earth is better off for it. Doom is a bad guy because he knows he's right.

Lex Luthor, similarly, can be confused as having little depth. All anyone thinks he does is hate Superman. Read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, or stories from the President Lex storyline, or heck, even Man of Steel. Luthor's motivations against Superman are not driven out of a desire for power. They are driven by the fact that this alien from another world has conquered hsi city and his world, and people love this omnipotent creature and view him as a "hero". Superman has made the people view Luthor as a villain, and for that Lex Luthor hates him.

I've already gone on about Darkseid, but to get back to my point, there is depth if you're willing to look out for the stories. Heck, even low list villains like Captain Cold and Captain Boomerang have depth if you go out there and look for it.

[Kevinroc]

Batman may be more popular but DC is built around Superman. Superman is what DC is all about, not Batman. Superman, a hero who always does right, always wins, always stands up for himself and at the end of the day saves the world. That is what DC is about.

Marvel is not about Captin America and frankly it never was. To me if anything it was about Spiderman but not really having an idenity until the X came around. Now Marvel is about people who get picked on because they are different. People who have felt alone at one time or another. Who have felt different, an outsider. That is what Marvel is today. About being accepted somewhere even when the whole world thinks you are a freak.

Of course DC is built around Superman. But to dismiss Batman is just ingorent. Batman IS DC. To the point that the company is named after one of his comics. To the point that the general public might mention Batman before Superman when asked to name a comic book character.

But to say that Marvel is never about Captain America is clearly wrong. Captain America is a HUGE part of Civil War. A lot of that revolves around him. And he was Marvel's Golden Age champion. Even if he wasn't the first, a lot of Marvel was built around him. The character may not have been one of the original Avengers but The Avengers are known for Cap.

Of course, the "Marvel Age" as it were was built around The Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. But to dismiss Cap is to not understand Marvel.

[Bat-Mite]

If this is not the pot calling the kettle black.

Not really. Unlike Mia, I didn't say I was going to stop talking to you because you are a poo poo head incapable of understanding my magnificent and ancient lore concepts beyond the understanding of mere mortals... like Mia is doing. I simply stopped talking to you because you keep using faulty logic based on incomplete facts, double standards, and ignoring evidence that goes against what you are trying to prove to try to prove your points. I simply do not want to enter that type of conversation.

[Bat-Mite]

Of course DC is built around Superman.

I disagree with this. It is true that a big chunk of the DCU is built on Superman, but not the entire DCU. You may even say a big chunk of the more recognizable parts of the DCU are built in some way around Superman, but plenty of parts are not. Batman and all the Bat-satellite books are not; Sandman and all the Vertigo DCU is clearly not; Wonder Woman; and then we have the bazillion one time concepts that somehow managed to get into the DCU like Rex the Wonder Dog, the Challengers of the Unknown, Kirby's Fourth World, Detective Chimp, The Doom Patrol, Vext and who knows what else that has nothing to do with Superman or the concepts he represents.

[Kevinroc]

I disagree with this. It is true that a big chunk of the DCU is built on Superman, but not the entire DCU. You may even say a big chunk of the more recognizable parts of the DCU are built in some way around Superman, but plenty of parts are not. Batman and all the Bat-satellite books are not; Sandman and all the Vertigo DCU is clearly not; Wonder Woman; and then we have the bazillion one time concepts that somehow managed to get into the DCU like Rex the Wonder Dog, the Challengers of the Unknown, Kirby's Fourth World, Detective Chimp, The Doom Patrol, Vext and who knows what else that has nothing to do with Superman or the concepts he represents.

I was speaking on a much more broad level.

In the sense of how all comics basically come from Superman. But especially DC's. What with Batman only coming out because DC wanted another costumed hero following the success of Superman.

But also, you see it in JLA/ Avengers. Busiek used Superman and Captain America as the biggest characters because for the most part, they are the oldest characters that represent their respective continuities.

Of course, DC is more than just Superman (as you so clearly demonstrated with your list) and Marvel is more than Captain America.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Okay, you like the Killign Joke. I get that, I like it too. Liked it so nice I bought it twice, in fact.

But, outside of The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum, what depth has been given to the Joker? All the Joker is is a raving homicidal lunatic. All he's done for the last twenty years is kill. Admittedly in many different ways and to many different people, but there's not a lot of depth given to him besides that given in Arkham Asylum and Killing Joke. He murders people because he thinks it's funny/sees no value in their continued existence. Joker's a great bad guy, sure enough, but he's never been my cup of tea.

I enjoy characters with a little bit more character depth, myself. Guys like Lex Luthor and Darkseid and (to use a Marvel character) Doctor Doom. Guys who, on the surface of things, are about as one dimensional as you can get (evil businessman, evil conqueror, and evil dictator, respectively).

But if you go beyond the surface, there's more there. Doom is evil because he knows he can lead the world better than anyone else, and is only viewed as evil because the heroes oppose him. It's been shown at least two times that when Doom does rule the world, the Earth is better off for it. Doom is a bad guy because he knows he's right.

Lex Luthor, similarly, can be confused as having little depth. All anyone thinks he does is hate Superman. Read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, or stories from the President Lex storyline, or heck, even Man of Steel. Luthor's motivations against Superman are not driven out of a desire for power. They are driven by the fact that this alien from another world has conquered hsi city and his world, and people love this omnipotent creature and view him as a "hero". Superman has made the people view Luthor as a villain, and for that Lex Luthor hates him.

I've already gone on about Darkseid, but to get back to my point, there is depth if you're willing to look out for the stories. Heck, even low list villains like Captain Cold and Captain Boomerang have depth if you go out there and look for it.


I agree that Darkseid had depth but for some reason DC is intent on making him a one dimensional punching bag for Superman. Look at Darkseid from COIE and Darkseid now and tell me he is just as good or better. His part in Superman/Batman and Sacrifice was pathetic compared to the one of the past. Plus he has been reduced as of late to a typical villian out to rule. Although he was great and more in depth a time ago. That's my take but if you have proof where he has been handled better in the present show me because I would rather a badass Darkseid than a pansy Darkseid.

To me JOker outside of the Killing Joke and Arkham is still fleshed out. When he started he was obviously 1 dimensional. Although now for the most part he does what he does because of Batman. He kills, he steals, he plans so he can get the Bats attention. He and Batman are interlaced into the end. They are opposites of the same coin. Night to each others day. Like Cyclopse and Wolverine. To me he wants the big end of not just Batman but himself in some grand crasendo albiet all at the same time. He beat Robins face in, in hopes of getting Batman to go crazy. For they could have it off in some big send off with him ending the Bat. Batman fights crime because a little boy lost his parents. He wants to protect little boys from losing their parents. He wants to make right which is wrong. Where as Joker was put upon by society. He was put upon by society and it caused him top go crazy. One bad day. He wants everyone else to go crazy. He wants to make everyone else crazy like him. He wants society not to put upon someone else like they did to him. Also add to his relationship with Batman and to me out of all the villians in DC he has the most depth.


I will give you that maybe I am being unfair with Lex. I have not recently read a lot of his stories. I have read more of his older stuff. So he may very well be a more fleshed out villian then I gave credit for. If you could, list some of his better, newer stories I can pick up and see what you see about him. Thanks!

Doom has depth but no where near Magneto. Doom is evil, Magneto is misguided. Doom knows some of the stuff he does is evil, Magneto is misguided in what he does. Right goal, wrong method. Also Magneto's wrong actions are because of his past, Doom's is out of his arogance. Magneto over Doom any day for me.

There is a point of having a charecter(i.e: every villian) and being fleshed out. DC lower list guys and most upper guys are motivated to be evil because they are evil end of story. Marvel guys for the most part are evil because there actions make them evil, not their ideas. How much depth does a villian have to rob a bank or such, (i.e: more DC villians than Marvel villians.)

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Of course DC is built around Superman. But to dismiss Batman is just ingorent. Batman IS DC. To the point that the company is named after one of his comics. To the point that the general public might mention Batman before Superman when asked to name a comic book character.

But to say that Marvel is never about Captain America is clearly wrong. Captain America is a HUGE part of Civil War. A lot of that revolves around him. And he was Marvel's Golden Age champion. Even if he wasn't the first, a lot of Marvel was built around him. The character may not have been one of the original Avengers but The Avengers are known for Cap.

Of course, the "Marvel Age" as it were was built around The Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. But to dismiss Cap is to not understand Marvel.


Maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were saying Batman and Captin America were DC and Marvel's idenity. That I do not agree with. ALmost, not everyone in DC is based off of Superman. Superman came first and was the model everyone uses in DC to make a hero. Heck even in DCU, everyone strives to be like Superman.

Where as in Marvel Cap is not its idenity. THe X is. To me until the X became big, Marvel had no real idenity. Spiderman and FF were good but were not its idenity. NOt like everyone strives to be Superman in DC.

[Kevinroc]

Maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were saying Batman and Captin America were DC and Marvel's idenity. That I do not agree with. ALmost, not everyone in DC is based off of Superman. Superman came first and was the model everyone uses in DC to make a hero. Heck even in DCU, everyone strives to be like Superman.

Where as in Marvel Cap is not its idenity. THe X is. To me until the X became big, Marvel had no real idenity. Spiderman and FF were good but were not its idenity. NOt like everyone strives to be Superman in DC.

Batman doesn't strive to be Superman. The Spectre doesn't strive to be Superman.

And here's a hint, pretty much every costumed crime fighter model is trying to be Superman. Superman is the mold by which all other costumed characters are judged.

[Tom]

Well since you took MY post out of context, gee I wonder how it wouldn't sound crazy. The point was that is someone who uinderstand Superman because of his philosophy "help other because you have the power to" should also be able to understand Spider-man and his philosophy "with great power comes great responsibility." Cause in that aspect they are the same. He stated he learned that from Superman and so it seems logical that he would learn the same thing from Spiderman. Where as all I learned from Superman is that he is perfect and he never loses.

If taken in context, it should not be that hard to follow.:rolleyes:
I follow it just fine. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't understand Spider-man. After all, I'm not the one following people around and berating them for their tastes. What you don't seem to get is that people have different reactions to different things and all the rolling eye winkies and obnoxious comments in the world aren't going to change that. I get Spider-man just fine. He doesn't "speak" to me the way Superman does. You obviously have an opposite reaction. I'm fine with that too.

[Count Vertigo]

DC treats their characters better.

Their heroes and villains are much more iconic and make a better impression on readers.

Their heroes aren't whiny like Spider-man or the X-Men.

The only thing that would make DC better is if they owned Captain America. The BEST example of a hero Marvel has.

Also, DC didnt try that shit Manga crap like Marvel did.

[Erebus]

1. Darksied is a pussy through and through. He used to be a badass but DC has jobbed him out as bad as Apocolypse. Darkseid has also become a one dimensional villian as of late. Plus even before he was never as fleshed out as the JOker.
I'm guessing you havn't read the new Seven Soldiers series?

2. Luther has been fleshed out more since when he first came around but still not like the JOker. To me Lex comes off to much like a guy who wants to run the world, which is basically true. Superman aside, he wants to rule and have power. Only when fighting Superman does his charecter flesh out more.
He wants power, sure, but he wants to destroy Superman. If Clark had never become Superman, he probably would have been satisfied as just another rich guy. Plus, he has so much history and complexity. I recomend Lex Luthor: Man of Steel to get deeper into his psych.
3. Joker is the most fleshed out DC charecter. A guy who has gone completly insane because of a wife's death, never being able to get a laugh as a comedian(which now all he does is laugh), having deformed looks thanks to something he did not want to do. Just like he said, one bad day can make anyone go crazy. Depending upon how bad the day is, it can cause someone to go insane. This guy has so many layers of crazy and not just crazy but insane its sometimes awe inspiring.
Joker has multiple origins, and the one provided in the Killing Joke is no more reliable then the other 500 or so origins. And I actually dislike the current day Joker. The Batman Rogues gallery has so much varviety, yet DC seems to constantly use the Joker, making me a bit tired of him. On some days, he's a completely insane, and almost unearthly, sadistic pychopath of the highest order, and on others, he's a just another lunatic, only with a clown gimic.
When it comes down to it, DC has made almost all villians be one dimensional, where as Marvel villians have many layers to them. Can you honestly say DC has better villians when looking at the list? Seriously?
It's impossible for me to say that one side has more villains then the next. But saying that all of DC's villains are one-dimensional is flat-out wrong. Almost every one of DC's villains have deep layers of complexity. Doctor Freeze, Sinestro, Catman, Captain Cold, Jason Todd, Superboy Prime, Zoom, Black Adam, and this all from the top of my head.

[Kevinroc]

DC treats their characters better.

Their heroes and villains are much more iconic and make a better impression on readers.

Their heroes aren't whiny like Spider-man or the X-Men.

The only thing that would make DC better is if they owned Captain America. The BEST example of a hero Marvel has.

Also, DC didnt try that shit Manga crap like Marvel did.

DC has some spots on their record regarding how they treat their characters. After all, DC has done publicity stunts of their own regarding character deaths such as Superman and Jason Todd. After all, Superman's death was just a publicity stunt and DC had readers vote as to whether or not to kill of Jason.

Whiny heroes like Spider-Man? As opposed to who? Kyle Rayner? Superboy-Prime? Superboy (Connor Kent in Teen Titans)?

DC didn't try that "manga crap?" You mean as opposed to starting up an entire new imprint called CMX in which to sell translated manga?

(The only problem I really have with CMX is that Tenjho Tenge is REALLY edited.)

And DC has used stylized artists who clearly were inspired by manga artists.

[Nick Kal]

DC has some spots on their record regarding how they treat their characters. After all, DC has done publicity stunts of their own regarding character deaths such as Superman and Jason Todd. After all, Superman's death was just a publicity stunt and DC had readers vote as to whether or not to kill of Jason.

Whiny heroes like Spider-Man? As opposed to who? Kyle Rayner? Superboy-Prime? Superboy (Connor Kent in Teen Titans)?

DC didn't try that "manga crap?" You mean as opposed to starting up an entire new imprint called CMX in which to sell translated manga?

(The only problem I really have with CMX is that Tenjho Tenge is REALLY edited.)

And DC has used stylized artists who clearly were inspired by manga artists.

Superboy-Prime is a joke... seriously.

[Kevinroc]

Superboy-Prime is a joke... seriously.

Until Infinite Crisis, he was a hero.

And he whined A LOT before he went into full-on crazy villain mode.

[Nick Kal]

Until Infinite Crisis, he was a hero.

And he whined A LOT before he went into full-on crazy villain mode.

I mean... like he's an actual,, literal joke. You might recognize him here on the boards... as several posters.:)

[Kevinroc]

I mean... like he's an actual,, literal joke. You might recognize him here on the boards... as several posters.:)

Look out for the retcon punch!

(Can we request what we want retconned out of our pasts?)

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

I'm guessing you havn't read the new Seven Soldiers series?


He wants power, sure, but he wants to destroy Superman. If Clark had never become Superman, he probably would have been satisfied as just another rich guy. Plus, he has so much history and complexity. I recomend Lex Luthor: Man of Steel to get deeper into his psych.

Joker has multiple origins, and the one provided in the Killing Joke is no more reliable then the other 500 or so origins. And I actually dislike the current day Joker. The Batman Rogues gallery has so much varviety, yet DC seems to constantly use the Joker, making me a bit tired of him. On some days, he's a completely insane, and almost unearthly, sadistic pychopath of the highest order, and on others, he's a just another lunatic, only with a clown gimic.

It's impossible for me to say that one side has more villains then the next. But saying that all of DC's villains are one-dimensional is flat-out wrong. Almost every one of DC's villains have deep layers of complexity. Doctor Freeze, Sinestro, Catman, Captain Cold, Jason Todd, Superboy Prime, Zoom, Black Adam, and this all from the top of my head.


I never knew Darkseid was in 7 soliders. Is he really? I just thought the last stuff he has done was Superman/Batman and Sacrifice. Which was total crap for Darkseid.

Also I admit I might have been mistaken with Luther. I wil have to check it out and see for myself.

Jason Todd is a punisher wannabe and that's it. Also he is not so much a charecter as a plot device.

Black Atom to me is not a villian, he is more like the Hulk or Punisher. An anti hero.

Superboy Prime has depth and he is one of MY favorite charecters of all time. If anything he is kind of like Magneto. Good goals, bad ways of doing it.

Maybe I am just predisposed to the fact that DC villians have for the most part been about robbing banks, taking over the world and such. I just don't see that as anything special. It always seems a boring plot device. Villian runs amuk in city, hero comes in and saves the day.

When it comes to fleshed out villains, make mine MArvel with the likes of Thanos/Magneto/Xavier and such.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Batman doesn't strive to be Superman. The Spectre doesn't strive to be Superman.

And here's a hint, pretty much every costumed crime fighter model is trying to be Superman. Superman is the mold by which all other costumed characters are judged.


They strive to be the hero Superman is. They strive to inspire everyone across the world like Superman does. They strive to be the symbol Superman is.

How is Specter even a hero or villian. He is the hand of God. Yes God is good but Specter to me fights a special catagory in himself.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

DC treats their characters better.

Their heroes and villains are much more iconic and make a better impression on readers.

Their heroes aren't whiny like Spider-man or the X-Men.

The only thing that would make DC better is if they owned Captain America. The BEST example of a hero Marvel has.

Also, DC didnt try that shit Manga crap like Marvel did.


Death of Superman was a gimmack.

Hal Jordan made out to be a mass murderer and then come back and everything is fine.

Killing Jason Todd and then bringing him back for no reason. His death ment something, his life means nothing to Batman.

Killing Ollie and bringing him back.

The list goes on and on. Plus the X-Men are a symbol for kids who feel made fun of, left out, freaks, weird just because they are different. Mimicing the real world.

Marvel and DC both treat charecters like crap if it means higher sales. They are more about more then charecterizations and such.

[Rugal 3:16]

DC, although I love marvel the notion that "superheroes are relatable = better" IMO defeats the purpose of a superhero, and "too much continuity" = "less timeless" to me.

Marvel in the 60's did a superb job of making DC look embarrasingly obsolete, but Icons are icons and DC is more Iconic..

Plus it's kinda silly to be living in a world where heroes are somewhat revered but Mutants aren't.. that means if you don't raise your hand and yell "I'm a Mutant" you're safe. In DC The word "Meta" is a term closely related with superheroes.

BTW just because marvel si more "realistic" doesn't mean they're "realistic" in whatever sense.

All the busted romances, and sick aunts can't make a world realistic where you have a naked shiny man floating around in a surfboard, with his boss a giant purple dude with a trash can on his head and plans to *gasp* eat the earth.

I can go on and on on how Marvel is NOT realistic either but then again I'm not saying it's a bad thing..

what's a bad thing though is that they keep downplaying the super with the MAN instead of the vice versa, which means all conflicts relate to basic human emotions you can read of anywhere that's not comics, that makes their powers cosmetic, and gives a setting EASILY replaceable by modern pieces of non-super-underwear-storytelling.

They keep pushing this "relatable" thing like it's a bar being riased, but instead they tend to thinner themselves and ultimately box themselves in.

[Bat-Mite]

(The only problem I really have with CMX is that Tenjho Tenge is REALLY edited.)

Normally I would be pissed off at DC for that, but I found Tenjho Tenge in Spanish the other day without censoring or editing; and, even with softcore porn, it's still an unreadable crap. So it's not like we are losing anything there.

[Erebus]

Death of Superman was a gimmack.

Hal Jordan made out to be a mass murderer and then come back and everything is fine.

Killing Jason Todd and then bringing him back for no reason. His death ment something, his life means nothing to Batman.

Killing Ollie and bringing him back.

The list goes on and on. Plus the X-Men are a symbol for kids who feel made fun of, left out, freaks, weird just because they are different. Mimicing the real world.

Marvel and DC both treat charecters like crap if it means higher sales. They are more about more then charecterizations and such.
Well, you could probably say the same with Marvel.

Jean Grey dying and coming back, again and again.

The death of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four, only to be brought back again.

The continuation of the Age of Apocalypse Timeline.

Bucky coming back to life for no reason.

No matter which way you cut it, the primary goal is to sell as much stuff as possible. They just do it in different ways.

[Kara Zor El]

I prefer DC because for me it has the great American iconic characters. Superman, know one touches him over at Marvel. Sure, you can argue that Thor will beat him up. But Thor is a Viking God. Which I can't believe in. He weilds magic which I can't believe in. Superman is an alien, which I can believe in and is a superman, which I can believe in. Plus he has a logo which outcools alll the rest. Thor doesn't even have one.
So for me it's the actual characters and not the style of univeres or tone or whatever. Just simply the characters, their costumes and how they came to be.
I really enjoy Marvel too by the way.

[GUTB]

I don't think there is really any kind of fan competition over DC and Marvel. What I find is that DC fans and just DC fans for a variety of reasons, and Marvel fans are Marvel fans for a different set of reasons. It's apples and oranges. When a fan from one camp occassionally reads stuff from the other side, they feel more like just visiting a foriegn country as opposed to looking for alternatives to their current fare. The two sets of fans don't antagonize over their differences, sort of like the fanboys vs. fangirl dynamic.

[shaxper]

I don't think there is really any kind of fan competition over DC and Marvel. What I find is that DC fans and just DC fans for a variety of reasons, and Marvel fans are Marvel fans for a different set of reasons. It's apples and oranges. When a fan from one camp occassionally reads stuff from the other side, they feel more like just visiting a foriegn country as opposed to looking for alternatives to their current fare. The two sets of fans don't antagonize over their differences, sort of like the fanboys vs. fangirl dynamic.

I think the people who feel that way are largely just victims of brand loyalty. Marvel and DC have both worn many masks over the years. As the editors, owners, and even the times have changed, so have both publishers' treatments of their characters. What DC stood for in the 1940s bears no resemblance to what it was in the 1960s, nor the 1980s or 2000s. The same is true for Marvel. I'm a fan of both, but at different times. More than 50% of my back issue collection is Marvel, yet I don't buy a single current Marvel title. I'm a DC fan right now, but I won't, for a moment, try to convince you that DC was the better publisher in 1965. Forget it.

As far as I'm concerned, the only REAL reason to choose one company over the other, hands down, is that you prefer one's licensed characters over the other's. Marvel will never have Batman and DC will never have Spider-man, try as they may to rip each other's works off from time to time (coughcoughsentryissoobviouslysupermancoughcough).

[algertman]

Death of Superman was a gimmack.

Hal Jordan made out to be a mass murderer and then come back and everything is fine.

Killing Jason Todd and then bringing him back for no reason. His death ment something, his life means nothing to Batman.

Killing Ollie and bringing him back.

The list goes on and on. Plus the X-Men are a symbol for kids who feel made fun of, left out, freaks, weird just because they are different. Mimicing the real world.

Marvel and DC both treat charecters like crap if it means higher sales. They are more about more then charecterizations and such.

all big events are gimmicks

Bucky is the same as Todd, but we got lucky and both were good reads, Bucky's was the better of the 2 in my opinion

You say Ollie, I say Jean Grey

you are wrong about X-Men, they are about minorites, not just being picked on at school cause you are different. It's more civil rights than being in the "IN" group at school

But DC learned in the 90's if you are gonna change status quo you need to tell a good story. In my opinion MARVELs last big status quo changing books, Spider-Man: the Other, House of M and Avengers: Dis. were terrible books

[Bat-Mite]

you are wrong about X-Men, they are about minorites, not just being picked on at school cause you are different. It's more civil rights than being in the "IN" group at school

They can be both though: there was a X-Men story that was basically about being the IN group in school in Grant Morrison's run.

Personally, I have always considered the "Oh, people hate me cause I am special!" idea kinda lame and never my favorite part of the whole X-Men thing. Yeah, I know the whole "Don't hate me cause I am beautiful" is the point of the X-Men, but I just don't like when they keep pushing it forward.

[LibrarianThorne]

Great characterization for Lex Luthor:
Villains United
Superman: Man of Steel volume 1
Lex Luthor: Man of Steel

Great characterization for Darkseid:
The Legion of Superheroes: The Great Darkness Saga
Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle
JLA volume 3: Rock of Ages

As to Doom being not as good a bad guy as Magneto because Doom is evil whereas Magnus is misguided, I can't disagree more. Read Doom 2099. There's an issue of X-Men from the early-mid '80s (when Magneto was the leader of the X-Men) where he and Doom face off, and you get a sense, just the merest taste, of the depth of Doom's character. Brubaker's Books of Doom is also amazing.

Doctor Doom is, in my opinion, Marvel's best villain by far. Latveria (until the Waid retcon) was a heaven compared to other eastern european countries, a place of peace and order. Yes they served Doom but they served Doom because he is/was their greatest ruler. You need only compare Doom to his predecessor, Baron Zorba, to see how Doom isn't just evil. He flips out whenever it comes to Reed Richards (not without due cause, of course), but besides Reed, Doom really isn't that evil. He's evil because the heroes and readers percieve his style of rule, fascism, to be evil. We see him as evil because the Fantastic Four fight him. Doctor Doom is more than just a punching bag, though, and stands as far and away one of the most fearsome villains in comicdom. One of the best developments recently, I think, is that the heroes (and readers) fear and hate him because Doom is right. Doom can lead the world better than anyone else, but the audience and the heroes can't accept that. So, Doom will be forever thwarted by heroes who ironically seek to make the world a better place.

[shaxper]

Doctor Doom is, in my opinion, Marvel's best villain by far. Latveria (until the Waid retcon) was a heaven compared to other eastern european countries, a place of peace and order. Yes they served Doom but they served Doom because he is/was their greatest ruler. You need only compare Doom to his predecessor, Baron Zorba, to see how Doom isn't just evil. He flips out whenever it comes to Reed Richards (not without due cause, of course), but besides Reed, Doom really isn't that evil. He's evil because the heroes and readers percieve his style of rule, fascism, to be evil. We see him as evil because the Fantastic Four fight him. Doctor Doom is more than just a punching bag, though, and stands as far and away one of the most fearsome villains in comicdom. One of the best developments recently, I think, is that the heroes (and readers) fear and hate him because Doom is right. Doom can lead the world better than anyone else, but the audience and the heroes can't accept that. So, Doom will be forever thwarted by heroes who ironically seek to make the world a better place.

Doom, like virtually every comic book villain ever produced under either publisher, has been characterized inconsistantly. I've never been a reader of Fantastic Four, but I got to see a glimpse of this nobility within the villain when he kidnapped Storm from the X-Men. However, the only two other times I've encountered him (when he teamed up with Iron Man circa Iron Man #150, and when he first met Silver Surfer circa FF #55), he was absolutely and unnecessarily cruel to the servants that surrounded him.

Let's face it. When characters are not creator controlled and publishers are more interested in profit than consistancy, no character is going to remain thoroughly consistant throughout. It doesn't happen in DC and it doesn't happen in Marvel.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

Well, you could probably say the same with Marvel.

Jean Grey dying and coming back, again and again.

The death of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four, only to be brought back again.

The continuation of the Age of Apocalypse Timeline.

Bucky coming back to life for no reason.

No matter which way you cut it, the primary goal is to sell as much stuff as possible. They just do it in different ways.

Hence why in MY post I said MARVEL and DC treat charecters like crap. Both companies.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

I prefer DC because for me it has the great American iconic characters. Superman, know one touches him over at Marvel. Sure, you can argue that Thor will beat him up. But Thor is a Viking God. Which I can't believe in. He weilds magic which I can't believe in. Superman is an alien, which I can believe in and is a superman, which I can believe in. Plus he has a logo which outcools alll the rest. Thor doesn't even have one.
So for me it's the actual characters and not the style of univeres or tone or whatever. Just simply the characters, their costumes and how they came to be.
I really enjoy Marvel too by the way.

Yu can't believe in a Viking GOd but can believe in an alien who looks 100% human and has super powers?:rolleyes:

I guess you don't believe in Wonder Woman since she is similar to Thor.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

all big events are gimmicks

Bucky is the same as Todd, but we got lucky and both were good reads, Bucky's was the better of the 2 in my opinion

You say Ollie, I say Jean Grey

you are wrong about X-Men, they are about minorites, not just being picked on at school cause you are different. It's more civil rights than being in the "IN" group at school

But DC learned in the 90's if you are gonna change status quo you need to tell a good story. In my opinion MARVELs last big status quo changing books, Spider-Man: the Other, House of M and Avengers: Dis. were terrible books

Bucky, Ollie, Jason Todd were all disasters. So was Jean Grey the first time. Although after that her's make sense since a Phoenix will rise from its ashes.

Clarment/Stan Lee even said people connect with the X-men because at one time or another they have been an outcast, made fun of and what not because they were different. Yes, very similar to being a minority. Although the way you say it, white people don;t get X-men because we are not the minority in America.\

DC and Marvel don;t change the status quo. They always return to it. IC, House of M(excluding Wolverine), New Avengers, Magneto's death being an imposter, OYL. All DC and Marvel do is return to the status quo. They don't try anything new because they are afriad of losing their fanbase. Instead of trying something new and gaining a huge fanbase (like the X-men revamp). Plus what good stories that change the status quo in DC are you talking about?

[Erebus]

Plus what good stories that change the status quo in DC are you talking about?
They already tried changing the status quo, with Infinite Crisis (which was pretty much a disaster), and Gotham Central (which rocked, but those idiots canceled it), and a couple more.

[Ultraman Max]

Look out for the retcon punch!


I know that phrase has been the butt of alot of jokes lately, but when you think about it, it's just a super-robot show away from being cool.

"Reeetttt-conn-o Punnchh-u!!!"

"Con-tin-uuuittty Beeeam-u!!!"

[Kevinroc]

I know that phrase has been the butt of alot of jokes lately, but when you think about it, it's just a super-robot show away from being cool.

"Reeetttt-conn-o Punnchh-u!!!"

"Con-tin-uuuittty Beeeam-u!!!"

You know, if DC had played Infinite Crisis with a more tongue-in-cheek narrative, those really silly plot points in a "serious" story could have been fun.

[The Shadow]

I don't think there is really any kind of fan competition over DC and Marvel. What I find is that DC fans and just DC fans for a variety of reasons, and Marvel fans are Marvel fans for a different set of reasons. It's apples and oranges. When a fan from one camp occassionally reads stuff from the other side, they feel more like just visiting a foriegn country as opposed to looking for alternatives to their current fare. The two sets of fans don't antagonize over their differences, sort of like the fanboys vs. fangirl dynamic.
Nice post.

I was fortunate enough I guess to not be a Marvel Zombie or a DC Drone. The corner store I bought my comcis at when I was a kid had a limited suply... like 4 or 5 and it was a mix of Marvel and DC... so whwile most of my friends were either one or the other... I was exposed to both worlds and enjoy them both equally!!!

[Ultraman Max]

You know, if DC had played Infinite Crisis with a more tongue-in-cheek narrative, those really silly plot points in a "serious" story could have been fun.


Yeah they could've. It probably could've been alot of fun in an old Jimmy Olsen story too.

[benday-dot]

DC treats their characters better.

Hmmm... what about 30-40 years of superdickery. I mean how hasn't DC thoroughly humiliated everyone one of its iconic characters? What ridiculous thing hasn't Superman alone been transformed into over the years? Just skim through the covers of Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson. I suppose there is something to admire in this carefree attitude, and these stories were a lot of fun, but I think they pretty much put paid to the statement that DC doesn't play fast and loose with its heroes.

[Ironluke5]

DC is the one for me. Batman's always been my favourite. Big fan of Supes, GL, the Flash and the JLA. They are iconic and strive to show the best we can be.
I'm not saying Marvel is awful. Marvel has wonderful characters. I just prefer Bats to Spidey, the JLA to the Avengers.

[nightscream]

I'm am gonna have to go with DC. Mainly becasue of Superman. He has been my favorite superhero since I could remember. He represents an ideal which is something to strive for. I have always been a true and loyal superman fan throughout the years even during his 1997 era where he lost his powers and regained them as pure electricity. Many fans refuse to except his "blue suit" days, but I stuck with him.

[nightscream]

In addition to my previous post, DC charecters have very rich backgrounds filled with raw emotion and sometimes rage. Not saying Marvel's does not becasue I absolulty love Wolverine, but DC just does it for me.

[Gargus]

Being a comic book fan I dont prefer one to the other. Each have pluses and minuses. I like comic books for what each individual comic is, not who publishes them.

[The Shadow]

Being a comic book fan I dont prefer one to the other. Each have pluses and minuses. I like comic books for what each individual comic is, not who publishes them.
A perfect post.

[reta666]

I love Dc and i love marvel, but i read DC a lot more, why because it has characters that even if they did something wrong or bad we woudnt see them in a bad light. example hal jordan. And if i saw maybe iron man or strange being evil id hate them. Besides DC has a style where things are heroic more good and bad not so much gray areas that marvel has, a hero is a hero(well at least the main ones), things that when ur a kid u believe in. Marvel is good for showing social changes and controversy and real world activity, i just think that the world will remember DC a lot more than mavel because its what we want as the idealists(truth justice all that stuff) we truly are

[Luc Star]

You are reading a certain story arc in a comic book. And with each and every issue, you can see that the story is only going to get worse. Your favourite heroes have been put through the ringer - it seems that only a miracle will save them from a fate worse than death.

And then you see him. You’ve just turned the page and he’s standing right there - you don’t even know if he’s going to stick around or if he’s even going to help the heroes get out of the jam they have gotten themselves into… but simply his appearance in one panel is more than enough. It’s almost as though the comic book at that moment speaks to you… actually, its more like he’s speaking to you directly, and he’s saying: -

“Don’t worry, I’m here now… and everything is going to be alright.”

And you believe in him without hesitation.

I choose DC over Marvel simply because they have Superman. The one fictional hero in all of comics who can make you believe the good guys will always win in the end.

Best Regards

Star

[BigBoss]

I like marvel more cause they have just better heros and are heros are more like people. not just some cartoon chracter thats invincible.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Batgirl.

She´s a loveable, noble heroine in a dark world whose touching tale of Redemption teaches us every month that we are more than what our genes or our upbringing programmed us to become.

Oh, wait.............

[Paul Newell]

You know what?

No more of this ridiculous topic. They're both corporations that publish the same type of material....Only with different costumes...Using, for the most part, the same creators as each other and selling that material for a profit. No matter how much you wish to believe that there is some "philosophical difference" between the two, there's not and never will be.

In future, when someone brings up the topic in an effort to prove "my company can beat your company", it'll be automatically deleted.