Does anyone else think that Batman works best when grounded in reality?

[Paul Dee]

As a character with no super powers I always think that he works best in a world where there are no super-powers, where people can't come back to life, where the villians are believable and could exist in our world. It's one of the reasons I can never get into JLA/Infinite Crisis etc. I prefer him as a detective, investigating cases and brawling in alleys. That's not to say that I dislike any comics which don't adhere to my idealised notion (there's just too many of them that don't for a start, it'd be ridiculous to dismiss and ignore them) but my heart always sinks slightly when a story goes from being a straightforward detective story to something more fanciful (Gotham County Line for example, which was a great story, but would have been better if it had carried on down the road it started at instead of veering off into Zombie territory [although obviously this was the point of that story]).

I think Batman Begins did a fantastic job in this respect and that's why I'd be so reluctant to see a Kent cameo in these movies; not only would it be too knowing ( a la "Holey rusted metal Batman!") but it would mean that Batman Begins takes place in a comic-book world.


Anyone have any thoughts or opinions?

[Agentum]

Well, i think he works in a supernatural setting too.
But yes i like when he is taking care of more realistic cases, i'm not much for the JLA Batman that fights aliens in outer space, it has to be very believebly to be good.
Just because the character have been so popular it hjas been so many bad storys with him involved, when instead they could have used another character.

[Hierocles]

I don't mind Batman as a pure detective... but given 1) the very heavy trauma that Bruce Wayne went through early in his life, 2) the fact that pretty much all of his villains come from an asylum, and 3) Gotham city itself, I feel that he can really shine in a supernatural-tinged setting.

That's one of the reasons why I love the various Moench/Jones/Beatty Batman projects as much as I do -- those brought forward the otherwordly creature aspect of Batman even more than his human side, and I had absolutely no problem with this... on the contrary. Sure, it can get out of hand when creators don't seem to know what to do with all this darkness, but when it's done right, it's my favorite version of Batman.

About Batman Begins: yes, it emphasized a "real world setting" more strongly than the other movies... but to me, it made Batman scarier as well (Scarecrow and his tricks did help). So I think it can satisfy those who love both "kinds" of Batman.

[Brack360]

I agree. While it can sometimes be fun to have Batman interact with other super-heroes in team books and epic events like Infinite Crisis, I don't like to see characters like Superman and Wonder Woman appear in the Batman books. I have always liked to pretend that the Batman books take place in their own world separate from the main DC Universe. This seemed to be the norm back in the 1990's when Denny O'Neil was Batman editor. Other super-heroes rarely guest-starred and Batman being a member of the JLA was rarely or never mentioned during that time. This all changed after O'Neil retired and Dan Didio became Editorial VP.

[Mister Intensity]

One thing I would like to see that hasn't been taken advantage of is seeing Batman functioning as a detective in a world full of super powers. There's such a disconnect between "Batman the Superhero" and "Batman the Urban Crime Fighter," yet the idea of being the "World's Greatest Detective" in a world where there are super powers and super science is something that writers rarely fully explore.

We have seen DNA evidence used to solve cases in the real world and police procedural television shows, movies, and books but what would that mean in a world inhabited by shapeshifters and mind controlers? That's something that's uniquely suited to superhero comic books, however, usually writers write either superhero or crime stories not a fusion of the two.

Mister Intensity

[Nate_Birch]

Not really...I prefer a mix of both.

Obviously going totally over the top wacky isn't good, but the best Batman stories are the big fun action stories and the fun sweeping adventure stories.

There's always going to be that sort of grittiness and realism grounding the character somewhat...Batman isn't going to be flying into space to fight aliens all the time like Superman, but honestly when the stories get too bogged down in Batman just being a detective, or a normal guy fighting street level crime the stories get kind of dreary to me.

Look at the stuff everyone likes...stuff like Dark Knight Returns. A good mix of grimness and realism, but with plenty of adventure, action and wackiness mixed in.

[Nick Kal]

Reality in comics is so blah... what is this focus on what's real? As long as the story is good...

[filthysize]

I don't care, as long as the character makes sense in his setting.

What gets me is when they try to play Batman as a street-level straight man in a scenario that is obviously extra normal. For instance, Steve Niles' Gotham Country Lines... in the first issue Bats doesn't believe in the afterlife, and tries to find a factual basis on life after death. Then later on in the story, he casually converse with his old pal Boston Brant. The guy knows for a fact that ghosts exist... I mean, come on, with all the stuff he'd seen? It's just Niles exaggerating his "cynical detective" persona, which works very well in stories of him chasing mob bosses, but rings untrue with stories that deal with Gods and Monsters and Aliens.

[JulianPerez]

Obviously going totally over the top wacky isn't good,

Says who? :D

As a character with no super powers I always think that he works best in a world where there are no super-powers, where people can't come back to life, where the villians are believable and could exist in our world. It's one of the reasons I can never get into JLA/Infinite Crisis etc. I prefer him as a detective, investigating cases and brawling in alleys. That's not to say that I dislike any comics which don't adhere to my idealised notion (there's just too many of them that don't for a start, it'd be ridiculous to dismiss and ignore them) but my heart always sinks slightly when a story goes from being a straightforward detective story to something more fanciful (Gotham County Line for example, which was a great story, but would have been better if it had carried on down the road it started at instead of veering off into Zombie territory [although obviously this was the point of that story]).

A very interesting point.

I am reminded of NEW TEEN TITANS #4, where Batman, Zatanna, and Green Lantern (gee, one of these things is not like the other here) swing into a Mystic Dimension to stop a group of wizards casting a spell. Now, Green Lantern made green darts with his ring, and Zatanna attempted to disrupt the "mystic harmonies of the ritual" or whatever the hell, but what was Batman's contribution to the fight?

"Note how they appear to be handling the mystic energy of the ritual without the slightest sign of strain." Okay, yeah, that was a detective-y observation back when Batman used to use his brain, but still, Batman must have been thinking exactly what I was thinking: "Why the hell am I here, doing this Luke Skywalker stuff? I mean, really?"

I wouldn't say that Batman is at his best when he is "grounded in reality." I would say though, that Batman is a character that is fundamentally pulp fiction - as opposed to other superheroes that are science fiction. This is why Englehart got the atmosphere of Batman so well: it is filled with assassins planting Black Mamba snakes, secret compartments inside of suitcases, and villains like Rupert Thorne and the Tobacconists Club, who one can very easily see Doc Savage or the Spider matching wits with.

So, to summarize: I can't imagine Batman in the real world. I can however, imagine him in James Bond's world.

[Hellcow]

I do tend to enjoy Batman more when you take out the super elements and all of the cardboard cut out villians.

For example, I really liked Long Halloween, but I think I would have enjoyed it even more if it was just Batman Vs Gansters.

[DarthAstuart]

i think a well-told story can be crafted using Batman in pretty much any situation--just make it REAL for the characters and remain consistent within the world. I just read Morrison's first arc on JLA Classified, and it was weird and crazy and trippy as hell for a Batman story. but DAMN if it wasn't cool--the "sci-fi closet" was genius. it also segmented batman's trippy, crazy, outlandish side into one specific area--when he opens the sci-fi closet, he can use these tools to help people and fight crime. when it's closed, he's still batman.

morrison's opening arc on JLA with the hyperclan is another one I'd cite as a great batman usage where things are pretty freaking sci-fi and crazy.

having said all that, i would love to see a story featuring a more grounded batman who realizes his inability to deal with the more outlandish and bizzare aspects of the DCU, and how that affects his work--does he just ring up superman? what if supes is unavailable? how does he detect and strategize with an enemy he can't get his logical brain around?

[Tom]

I disagree. While I don't want to see a lot magic and superpowers in Gotham, the fact is the concept of Batman itself is inherently unrealistic. It's a dirty little secret that no one wants to admit, but Batman has superpowers.

[Agent0]

I love seeing Batman up against metas and super powered beings myself. But I also love seeing him battle nut cases and gangsters too. So I guess I'd say I'm an all rounder. It really just depends on who the writer is.

Given that Batman is such a large part of the DCU its nearly impossible for Batman not to go up against these sort of threats.

[BYC]

Ideally in my book, I would like Batman in the Marvel Universe setting. People in Marvel are paranoid with superheroes, so Batman's urban legend will grow better. Also, the average heroes in Marvel are generally less powerful, so Batman can take them down with fewer ridiculous/foolproof plans like Tower of Babel.

Although as a fan of comics, I want to see Batman do some crazy stuff with the JLA once in a while, it's really tiresome to have Batman be an ubergod with the JLA, and then having Batman's fairly human power level rogues gallery take him down a peg or two.

[TheOnlyXTremeFan]

Some of my favorite Batman moments are when he's not necessarily grounded in reality, so I would have to say no.

It's just a matter of opinion but I thought stuff like him taking out the Hyperclan was awesome. I love rooting for the underdog, and Batman is the underdog against all these big major supervillains.

[Paul Dee]

I disagree. While I don't want to see a lot magic and superpowers in Gotham, the fact is the concept of Batman itself is inherently unrealistic. It's a dirty little secret that no one wants to admit, but Batman has superpowers.


Er..how so? The concept of Batman is realistic though, if written correctly. To write him properly and realistically he does come off as slightly unhinged but that's almost what I want to embrace I guess, the fact that it could happen. How does he have superpowers? He clearly doesn't.


I need to be more specific with what I meant in my first post; I'll do that later when I'm not so drunk.

[Tom]

Er..how so? The concept of Batman is realistic though, if written correctly.Because for almost 70 years he's been routinely doing things that are physically impossible for human beings to do. And how can it be realistic if nowhere, at any time in history, did anyone like Batman ever exist? If it can't be found in reality, it is therefore unrealistic.

[Brack360]

There are different degrees of "realistic." Obviously, the concept of Batman is itself improbable and unrealistic. However, there is a difference between simply being improbable and containing supernatural or fantasy elements that place the story in an out-of-this-world setting.

[lucifernomi]

And how can it be realistic if nowhere, at any time in history, did anyone like Batman ever exist? If it can't be found in reality, it is therefore unrealistic.


Reality is fluid, limited mostly by our perception of it. Just because you observe that something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't.

[lucifernomi]

. How does he have superpowers? He clearly doesn't.


Not in the DCU sense, but viewed objectively one could make a strong argument that his eidetic memory is a super power, and taken through strict exegesis, his physical feats are so vastly above what we know of biological limitations that he would only fundementally be considered human.

[lucifernomi]

My two cents:

I know people have mixed feelings about all things Supergirl related, including how the character was introduce, but some of my favorite Batmoments of late were tied up with her. Maybe Batman belongs in a more natural urban context, but then I wouldn't get to see him do things like man-up to Darkseid on Apokolips, and that would make me very, very sad. :-(

[Tom]

Reality is fluid, limited mostly by our perception of it. Just because you observe that something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't.
Well no, it really can't. There never has been nor will there ever be a man who dresses up as a rodent and swings from skyscraper to skyscraper on a little rope, hurling little bat-shaped boomerangs at bad guys and routinely taking out 20 at a time, an expert in practically every discipline of science with unlimited amounts of money and a level of tech expertise as great as all the great minds of science put together.

Don't get me wrong, I love the character, but he's pure fantasy from start to finish, just as much as Superman is

[The Batman]

one of the greatest things about Batman to me is the versatility of the character; he can work equally well in a "realistic" setting, a supernatural setting, or a sci-fi/superhero universe so long as the writer stays true to Batman's character and maintains a certain consistency to their universe. while i really enjoyed Chris Nolan's realistic take on Batman in Batman Begins, it bothered me that for the climax that realism goes out the window for an action set piece featuring a microwave emitter weapon.

[trickster]

Well no, it really can't. There never has been nor will there ever be a man who dresses up as a rodent and swings from skyscraper to skyscraper on a little rope, hurling little bat-shaped boomerangs at bad guys and routinely taking out 20 at a time, an expert in practically every discipline of science with unlimited amounts of money and a level of tech expertise as great as all the great minds of science put together.

Don't get me wrong, I love the character, but he's pure fantasy from start to finish, just as much as Superman is

First of all, money isn't a problem. Apparently his Batman Begins gear would cost about 3,5 million dollars. So for a guy who has even a fortune of "no more" than 100 million it's feasible.



There never has been nor will there ever be a man who dresses up as a rodent and swings from skyscraper to skyscraper on a little rope,

Of course there won't be. Regular people go to work, come back home and watch CNN and that's it. Not to mention that the most difficult exercise for them is typing, opening a door and the like.



physically impossible for human beings to do

You really need to revise your definition of impossible. Even a Navy Seal can do things that are impossible by a couch potato standard's. Not to mention what Shaolin monks are capable of doing: (balancing on a spear's tip without getting impaled or withstanding a hit on the head with a metal bar, for example).

[Tom]

First of all, money isn't a problem. Apparently his Batman Begins gear would cost about 3,5 million dollars. So for a guy who has even a fortune of "no more" than 100 million it's feasible. I'm not talking about the movie, I'm talking about the comic books where he has a veritable fleet of vehicles, boats and aircraft, a computer and laboratory that rivals the best in the world and after all this stuff gets destroyed on a semi-routine basis, he manages to replace all of it without ever alerting his own accountants to the billions of dollars he's spending on his hobby.

You really need to revise your definition of impossible. Even a Navy Seal can do things that are impossible by a couch potato standard's. Not to mention what Shaolin monks are capable of doing: (balancing on a spear's tip without getting impaled or withstanding a hit on the head with a metal bar, for example).And yet, none of them have ever been able to swing one-handed from building to building 100 stories above ground while avoiding gunfire from dozens of opponents while wearing a mask that obscures his vision and a 10 foot cape. And foregoing the physical stuff, there has never been a shaolin monk or a navy SEAL who could do those things while also becoming a world class detective and a master of several scientific disciplines.

No, I don't think I need to revise my definition of impossible at all.

[The Batman]

Erik Larsen's latest column seems to address alot of the concerns about an overly realistic portrayal of Batman. also it seems that for most people, at least in reference to comics, 'realistic' seems to mean something closer to 'realish' than to an accurate reproduction of the real world on the comic book page.

[Major Danger]

I like both. I enjoy Bats doing straight out detective work. I like when he comes up against his "normal" villains like Joker, Man-Bat or Mr. Freeze, but I also enjoy some of his wilder romps with Green Lantern, Superman and the Justice League. You gotta respect a guy without superpowers who just shows up in Darkseid's palace, like he would Jim Gordon's office, to confront him.

[lucifernomi]

I'm not talking about the movie, I'm talking about the comic books where he has a veritable fleet of vehicles, boats and aircraft, a computer and laboratory that rivals the best in the world and after all this stuff gets destroyed on a semi-routine basis, he manages to replace all of it without ever alerting his own accountants to the billions of dollars he's spending on his hobby.

Not to mention how much he drops on batarangs.

[lucifernomi]

Well no, it really can't. There never has been nor will there ever be a man who dresses up as a rodent and swings from skyscraper to skyscraper on a little rope, hurling little bat-shaped boomerangs at bad guys and routinely taking out 20 at a time, an expert in practically every discipline of science with unlimited amounts of money and a level of tech expertise as great as all the great minds of science put together.

Don't get me wrong, I love the character, but he's pure fantasy from start to finish, just as much as Superman is

Of course he's pure fantasy. Still you can't say something can't happen just because it hasn't. "No, it really can't," isn't an argument.

Lets think about hwat it would take to make the concept possible. An heir to a multi-billion dollar empire with top-tier genuis mind(with high-level photographic memory if not eidetic) and outstanding physical potential and training. We're talking best of three worlds, which is incredibly unlikely, but not impossible. Obviously Bruce Wayne take even that to extremes that are beyond both fianacing and human sensibility, but the concept is relatively sound.

[Ripcord]

I love Batman in his own little world with his supervillians. What makes his rogues gallery so great is that they don't have big super powers which makes them more believable. I always thought of Gotham as a place outside of the DCU where Batman is the only superhero.

[Tom]

Of course he's pure fantasy. Still you can't say something can't happen just because it hasn't. "No, it really can't," isn't an argument.

Lets think about hwat it would take to make the concept possible. An heir to a multi-billion dollar empire with top-tier genuis mind(with high-level photographic memory if not eidetic) and outstanding physical potential and training. We're talking best of three worlds, which is incredibly unlikely, but not impossible. Obviously Bruce Wayne take even that to extremes that are beyond both fianacing and human sensibility, but the concept is relatively sound.
I'm afraid I simply don't agree. In fact, I'm afraid the very idea of Batman being realistic in any way, shape or form strikes me as utterly ridiculous. It's fantasy and I'm fine with that.

[astroguy]

I'm afraid I simply don't agree. In fact, I'm afraid the very idea of Batman being realistic in any way, shape or form strikes me as utterly ridiculous. It's fantasy and I'm fine with that.

Look at batman year one thats almost ridiculously realistic and we dont see batman pulling off any amazing intellectuall or physical feats yet this is one of my favorite batman books and is frank miller at his best.

[Tom]

I seem to recall him kicking the door off a police car while handcuffed.

[Giganto]

I seem to recall him kicking the door off a police car while handcuffed.

Big deal. I did that twice yesterday.

[Karl J. Barnes]

I seem to recall him kicking the door off a police car while handcuffed.

Well corruption was at an all time during Batman First Year, so obviviously you'll get shoddy cars. It's one of the ways that Commissioner Loebs(?) paid for his doll collections.

[filthysize]

He didn't kick the door off handcuffed. He actually pulled the handcuff til its chain broke first.

But he did survive a building being f$&#ing napalmed.

[astroguy]

He didn't kick the door off handcuffed. He actually pulled the handcuff til its chain broke first.

But he did survive a building being f$&#ing napalmed.

He had just been shot and the cops had him in the car so he was probably given some sort of adrenalin rush allowing him to break the chains.

The building wasnt napalmed it was just a regular bomb and batman managed to dodge the worts of the blast.

[Tom]

He had just been shot and the cops had him in the car so he was probably given some sort of adrenalin rush allowing him to break the chains.

The building wasnt napalmed it was just a regular bomb and batman managed to dodge the worts of the blast.
Just like in the real world!

[astroguy]

No wait I remember there was a bomb shelter in the building that batman went into thats how he survived

[Colossus]

I have often scratched my head when reading posts about from my fellow Batman fans that speak of how realistic Batman is as a character. If Batman were a realistic character every issue would end with Alfred taping his broken ankles, and popping his arm back into socket for being foolish enough to try to swing around the city on a rope.

I mean Batman is a guy that dresses up as a bat and throws boomerangs at an evil clown.

Batman is 100% fantasy, not an episode of Law and Order.

[Agent0]

Look at batman year one thats almost ridiculously realistic and we dont see batman pulling off any amazing intellectuall or physical feats yet this is one of my favorite batman books and is frank miller at his best.

You do know in Year One alone we saw him:
- Kicking down a tree
- Knife hand chopping through bricks
- Breaking handcuffs
- Taking gun shot bullets without being dropped
- Punching a GCPD cop with protective armor on through a brick wall and giving him internal injuries
- Outsmarting the entire GCPD Swat Team singlehandley

This is realistic to you?

Batman's always been this way just not as formidable or experienced as he is now. By our real world standards this would be deemed as being on the superhuman level status in no way could a real person pull off all those feats and accomplish everything Bruce has to become the Dark Knight we know him as today.

[Tom]

I don't know about the other guys making the same argument as me - and let me just say, it's refreshing to see so many others agreeing because I have gotten dogpiled for making this argument in the past - but I'm not criticizing the character at all. I love that he's a fantasy character. I love that he's unrealistic. I love when the writer understands that.

[cactusmaac]

There are degrees of fantasy.

James Bond's world and Batman's world are highly improbable.

Something like Superman, LOTR or Star Wars is downright impossible.

Personally I like all kinds of Batman stories as long as they're done well. Though I think the character works best (as in Batman: Year One, Batman: Year 100, Batman:DKR) as someone with exceptional abilities operating against a plausible, real-worldish backdrop.

[Tom]

Batman:DKR)
Okay, I know the board read your colon and cap D as a winkie, but that's pretty funny. Too bad we don't have a winkie with bat ears.

[joe bloke]

a bloke dressing up as a bat and jumping off rooftops is never going to be realistic, no matter which way you play it. i think maybe batman would benefit from a lightening up a little. not the chatacter, the creators. stop trying to do ART and start concentrating on producing damn fine comic books. there's no denying that The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, and Arkham Asylum are great books ( well, maybe not Arkham Asylum ), but i think the damage caused to the character by these books, though not intended by the respective authors, is still being dealt with today. every writer that's taken a turn on the character since the publication of these books seems to think that he has to give us a grittier batman, a more tortured batman, a more tragic batman, a more violent batman, and i'm getting a little tired of it. frankly, it's turning a great idea into hard work. i kind of miss the days when he was a good guy in tights who used to beat up really cool bad guys. for what it's worth, i think the best version of the character produced in the last twenty-odd years was the one that appeared in the cartoons in the 'nineties.

[astroguy]

You do know in Year One alone we saw him:
- Kicking down a tree
- Knife hand chopping through bricks
- Breaking handcuffs
- Taking gun shot bullets without being dropped
- Punching a GCPD cop with protective armor on through a brick wall and giving him internal injuries
- Outsmarting the entire GCPD Swat Team singlehandley

This is realistic to you?

Batman's always been this way just not as formidable or experienced as he is now. By our real world standards this would be deemed as being on the superhuman level status in no way could a real person pull off all those feats and accomplish everything Bruce has to become the Dark Knight we know him as today.

You are right I guess what I was inda trying to say was that year one is realistic when compared to other batman stories as there is no ridiculous villans and no supernatural elements. The story is possible but unlikely and you would need perfect circumstances for it to work.