So why did they get rid of Cassandra Cain? (possible spoilers)

[Smokeyjay]

I thought she was popular because she seemed to have quite a few fans on this board.

And her series ran for quite a bit. 75 I believe? So her series selling must have been at least adequate.

I thought her costume was cool and so was her backstory of a raised killer. So was her ability to predict the movements of her foes. And I liked how she was the only one in the Bat family who actually wanted to BE the next Batman, rather than try to escape from Batmans shadow.

Its not like DC didn't want a Batgirl anymore. IC 7 showed the new Batgirl and her costume. The thing is that I'm not liking the new Batgirls costume-it looks sort of ridiculous. It doesn't seem like girls in the Bat family last for too long, and I expect her to be replaced by another down the road.

So is Cassandra Cain gone forever?

[Brack360]

Cassandra Cain's "final fate" will be revealed in Robin #150, out later this month, and it looks like she has become a villain/ anti-hero and the new leader of the League of Assassins.

The Batgirl series was cancelled for creative reasons, not low sales, likely because Cassandra does not fit into the mold of the "New Silver Age" that Dan Didio is pushing. Every DC legacy character introduced in the 1990's is being written out and replaced. The new character is Batwoman and is supposedly getting her own series later this year. I personally think her costume looks ridiculous.

[Argonaut]

Well he beat me to it, but he is right. It seems that they are turning her into a villain.

[Blight]

I'm also a fan of Cassie and was deeply hurt by DC's move of canceling her title and am buying the current Robin arc hoping beyond hope DC didn't turn her into a villain cause if they did.. :evilangry

[KenK]

It certainly pisses me off that DC's giving her the shaft. I was really hoping they'd keep her around as Batgirl. Between this and them killing Spoiler, they're definitely not showing their female characters enough respect.

[Damo]

Cassie-Fan. Pissed over shaft. Hoped keep as Batgirl. Hoped not villain. Want Didio to catch something if he's behind this.

[Captain Jim]

Cassandra Cain's "final fate" will be revealed in Robin #150, out later this month, and it looks like she has become a villain/ anti-hero and the new leader of the League of Assassins.

Could be; we'll have to wait to see.

The Batgirl series was cancelled for creative reasons, not low sales, likely because Cassandra does not fit into the mold of the "New Silver Age" that Dan Didio is pushing. Every DC legacy character introduced in the 1990's is being written out and replaced.

Personally, I think it was "both/and" not "either/or". I suspect creative reasons played a part in the decision, but probably wouldn't have been a strong enough reason if her sales were still setting the world on fire.

The new character is Batwoman and is supposedly getting her own series later this year.

Again, you might be right. But we don't *know* that was Batwoman in that one panel of IC #7. Plus DC has yet to confirm either a new Batwoman character or title.

[Effect]

Does anyone have an image of what this new Batwoman looks like?

[UniqueFrequency]

The Batgirl series was cancelled for creative reasons, not low sales, likely because Cassandra does not fit into the mold of the "New Silver Age" that Dan Didio is pushing. Every DC legacy character introduced in the 1990's is being written out and replaced. The new character is Batwoman and is supposedly getting her own series later this year. I personally think her costume looks ridiculous.

man that does suck. i picked up the first 12 issues of Batgirl and it was decent. Just that I didn't have the extra cash to continue. I thought she was a pretty interesting character coming out of NML!

[TheOnlyXTremeFan]

I thought her main book suffered after the original creative team left. But she was a really interesting character, and I loved how it was like Batman had a surrogate daughter figure, for once.

And there was the dueling father relationship between Bats and David Cain. That wasn't a story detail that could be had with the Robins.

I'm disappointed that DC has gone down this route, but I'm hoping there will be at least some interesting stories to come out of this.

Why do I get the feeling that Ra's Al Ghul is coming back in Robin? Nyssa dies, I read in interviews that Robin's supposed to be a book with major happenings. Am I the only one who thinks this is possible?

[Jmacq1]

Could be; we'll have to wait to see.

God I hope not. Let's just toss out 75 issues of character development at the drop of a hat, huh?

Personally, I think it was "both/and" not "either/or". I suspect creative reasons played a part in the decision, but probably wouldn't have been a strong enough reason if her sales were still setting the world on fire.

Yeah, and since they couldn't logically saddle her with a child or some other gimmick (as they did with Catwoman, a title that regularly sold -less- than Batgirl yet was not cancelled), they just decided to either sideline her or utterly destroy her character.

Again, you might be right. But we don't *know* that was Batwoman in that one panel of IC #7. Plus DC has yet to confirm either a new Batwoman character or title.

OK, technically there wasn't a big neon sign flashing "Batwoman" over her, but uh...who the hell else would she be? There -is- a Batwoman character, she's been confirmed in the solicits for "52" and shown in some background material in other titles (Newspaper headlines asking "Who is Batwoman?"). They've more than "confirmed" the character. They have -not- however, confirmed that she'll have an ongoing title. And even if she does, it won't be till after "52" is over since she's one of the characters in that title, and as noted in other places, most of the "primaries" in "52" are untouchable until that series is over, so they can keep us guessing as to which ones will survive and which won't.

I suspect they're waiting to see what reaction she gets in "52", and then will decide whether or not she gets an ongoing. But I expect if they do that DC's hype machine will kick into overdrive and cram the new Batwoman down our throats until we're supposedly convinced she's the best thing since sliced bread.

[Brack360]

Could be; we'll have to wait to see.
That's why I said "looks like." And we know that her fate will be revealed one way or the other in Robin #150 because it says so in the solicitations.



Personally, I think it was "both/and" not "either/or". I suspect creative reasons played a part in the decision, but probably wouldn't have been a strong enough reason if her sales were still setting the world on fire.
While it's true that her sales were not all that great, Batgirl was consistently outselling some more prominent DC titles, including Catwoman and Aquaman, and was certainly outselling fringe titles like Firestorm and Manhunter, all of which are still around OYL. If creative reasons were not a prominent factor, I doubt that the book would have been cancelled. At the very least, DC would have just "shaken it up" with a new direction, possibly a new creative team, or even a new sub-title, like how Aquaman became Aquaman: Sword of Atlantis and Legion of Super-Heroes became Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes.



Again, you might be right. But we don't *know* that was Batwoman in that one panel of IC #7. Plus DC has yet to confirm either a new Batwoman character or title.
Again, that's why I included the word "supposedly," not "definitely" or just "is." ;)

[phantom1592]

I never liked her. I tried to read her but couldn't get into it.

1) She was better fighter than Batman. That was an immediate turn off. It seems the only way to push a new character is to make them MORE POWERFUL! power doen't make a crappy character good. You need more than that.

2) She didn't speak. I know she learned later, but I have to say the early issues were NOT fun, and I think I finished a whole issue in less than 3 minutes.

3) missed opportunities. This is one thing I REALLY think they dropped the ball on. This could have been a Really great BatMAN comic. or they should have had her in the BatMAN books more. They could have played a lot more on the relationship between the two. Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Batman has raised them all in one way or another. He's BEEN the father figure before. What he HASN'T done was raise a DAUGHTER. This was completly new territory for him, and what does he do. he gives her a cave of her own, and has her talk to oracle all the time.

What a waste :(


Personally I like my characters flawed and humanish, and the whole Perfect fighter, could never be beat, blah blah blah, wasn't my cup of tea.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I never liked her. I tried to read her but couldn't get into it.

1) She was better fighter than Batman. That was an immediate turn off. It seems the only way to push a new character is to make them MORE POWERFUL! power doen't make a crappy character good. You need more than that.

2) She didn't speak. I know she learned later, but I have to say the early issues were NOT fun, and I think I finished a whole issue in less than 3 minutes.

3) missed opportunities. This is one thing I REALLY think they dropped the ball on. This could have been a Really great BatMAN comic. or they should have had her in the BatMAN books more. They could have played a lot more on the relationship between the two. Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Batman has raised them all in one way or another. He's BEEN the father figure before. What he HASN'T done was raise a DAUGHTER. This was completly new territory for him, and what does he do. he gives her a cave of her own, and has her talk to oracle all the time.

What a waste :(


Personally I like my characters flawed and humanish, and the whole Perfect fighter, could never be beat, blah blah blah, wasn't my cup of tea.

1) Cass wasn't introduced as the world's greatest fighter. She worked her way up to it from her introduction. It wasn't until issue 25 that she could legitmately claim to be the best

2) I thought her non verbal nature was a nice 'Noir-ish' hook

3) Yes, Cass was pushed to the way side and barely interacted with the Bat family outside Bruce and Oracle. But that's not the character's fault.

And finally, I always found Cass to be very human. Her combat ability contrasted nice with her utter lack of social skills. She might be able to survive a battle with the Brotherhood of Evil, but can't read a menu list to order breakfast

[colossus34]

She felt like an Azrael Clone/Rip-off to me from the beginining. Her only legitamate claim to fame was she was just another Ninja/uber fighter added to the already zillion uber Ninja/fighters prowling in the Batclan and greater DC universe (Lady Shiva anyone?) except she was GASP...better!:rolleyes:

I wouldn't have minded if they just gave her clear meta powers and made her superhuman but the whole "moves at 4X the speed of peak human" made absolutely no sense and really made her come off as a major fan-wanker character...especially on the forums. Main reason I never came to like her.

[Smokeyjay]

I didn't really see a strong connection with her and the Batfamily though.

During IC, its like Batman completely forgot he had a Batgirl. It seems like Nightwing, Robin, and Oracle are the only true members of the Batfamily. In IC, apparently Batman stopped being a dick and started caring more about his extended family, but it seems like Cassandra Cain got lost somewhere.

Does Bruce even know what happened to Cassandra? I didn't really follow the Batgirl series.

She wasnt necessarily the better fighter than Batman. With weapons, utility belt, etc. Batman would win. She was still pretty inexperienced and would rush into battle without scouting. Thats why Robin and her made a good comb. because Robin had the brains and she had the physical ability. A lot of people are physically better than Batman.

I don't mind if DC got rid of her to cut down on the Bat family, which I think is getting too big anyways. But I'm not liking this new Batgirl-I thought Cassandra was fine and had potential.

[Generic Eric]

1) She was better fighter than Batman. That was an immediate turn off. It seems the only way to push a new character is to make them MORE POWERFUL! power doen't make a crappy character good. You need more than that.

I've read all 63 issues of Batgirl going backwards. I really enjoyed the storylines where they tried to devolope her character. Reading the first 25 issues where she was training to be the 'best' fighter in the DCU was excruciatingly boring. The romance with Superboy, her move to Bludhaven, battle with Batman, battle with Ravager and her search for her origins in the final storyline. Those stories were golden. Most other stories she was in were less than interesting.

[Guts/Batman]

God I hope not. Let's just toss out 75 issues of character development at the drop of a hat, huh?

Why wouldn't they?

They did the same thing with Catwoman. One of the two original villains...

[Damo]

I didn't really see a strong connection with her and the Batfamily though.

During IC, its like Batman completely forgot he had a Batgirl. It seems like Nightwing, Robin, and Oracle are the only true members of the Batfamily. In IC, apparently Batman stopped being a dick and started caring more about his extended family, but it seems like Cassandra Cain got lost somewhere.

Does Bruce even know what happened to Cassandra? I didn't really follow the Batgirl series.

She wasnt necessarily the better fighter than Batman. With weapons, utility belt, etc. Batman would win. She was still pretty inexperienced and would rush into battle without scouting. Thats why Robin and her made a good comb. because Robin had the brains and she had the physical ability. A lot of people are physically better than Batman.

I don't mind if DC got rid of her to cut down on the Bat family, which I think is getting too big anyways. But I'm not liking this new Batgirl-I thought Cassandra was fine and had potential.

Wow, didn't even think of that. But yeah, nobody in the Bat-family even mentioning Cass is... well, it's sad is what it is.

[Captain Jim]

I never liked her. I tried to read her but couldn't get into it.

1) She was better fighter than Batman. That was an immediate turn off.

I agree.

2) She didn't speak. I know she learned later, but I have to say the early issues were NOT fun, and I think I finished a whole issue in less than 3 minutes.

Again, I agree completely. But paradoxically, once they gave her the ability to speak, she seemed to lose much of what made her unique.

[ForEverAncien]

The lack of support and the lack of imagination...should be added to the mentions of why, the Batgirl book could not continue. I would say something else...but this will suffice.

[Damo]

Sadly I think a big part of it was the truly abysmal villains she faced. Okay, yes, Shiva. But aside from The Lady Wu-San, most of Cass' villains were just plain abysmal. It truly says something that the cops in Gotham Central fought more A-List Bat-foes than Cass did. She never fought the Joker. Never even met him. That's unbelievable. That's atrocious. That's disgraceful.

[Matt]

Cassandra did encounter the Joker, just not in her own title.

[comicfreak]

I thought, that the title grealty went better when Andersen Gabrych took over as writer. The stories went better and he made Cassy interesting again. And could someone please tell me what A-List Bat-foes Robin has fought since, lets say, Bill Willingham has taken over? I'm currently trying to recall any name, but the only villian I remember was that guy with this talking pin in his breast.

[effang]

1) Cass wasn't introduced as the world's greatest fighter. She worked her way up to it from her introduction. It wasn't until issue 25 that she could legitmately claim to be the best

2) I thought her non verbal nature was a nice 'Noir-ish' hook

3) Yes, Cass was pushed to the way side and barely interacted with the Bat family outside Bruce and Oracle. But that's not the character's fault.

And finally, I always found Cass to be very human. Her combat ability contrasted nice with her utter lack of social skills. She might be able to survive a battle with the Brotherhood of Evil, but can't read a menu list to order breakfast

she was the whole region slews of people picked up the batman books again...

not human?! she's the most human of all. she's the only one that interacted with normal people. she's the one most "foreign" to any concepts not combat related.

this created, or had the potential, to create a lot of interesting stories.

i loved her

[Generic Eric]

she was the whole region slews of people picked up the batman books again...

not human?! she's the most human of all. she's the only one that interacted with normal people. she's the one most "foreign" to any concepts not combat related.

this created, or had the potential, to create a lot of interesting stories.

i loved her

Maybe DC wanted a Batgirl that would be appealing to a young female audience instead of a horny male audience. I liked Cassandra Cain's look at the end of her series besides the freaky bondage girl look she sported for the majority of her run. It makes me wonder if alot of her apeal was that she was a hot teenage chick in skin tight leather.

[Forsaken_One]

Sadly I think a big part of it was the truly abysmal villains she faced. Okay, yes, Shiva. But aside from The Lady Wu-San, most of Cass' villains were just plain abysmal.Yeah, but what kind of villians has Robin faced over in his own comic? Sure there's the occasional Batman redux that happens, but other than that? An assortment of forgetable mobsters, Deathstroke ripoffs, a kid general. He had King Snake once but he was killed in Gotham Central as almost an aside.

In fact I can't think of any spin-off series of a big hero that has villians as memorable as the primary hero's villians. Can you think of any Supergirl (any version) villians who were as memorable as Lex Luthor? Even the Anti-Monitor isn't that well known, and he wasn't really Supergirl's villian. Nightwing hasn't exactly had a surplus of interesting villians in his own title. Hell, Birds of Prey mostly focus on other people's villians as well. And so on.

[Gingold]

She wasn't very interesting and she had an ugly costume. I agree that the no-speaking thing didn't help much either. For a lot of fans, Batgirl = Barbara Gordon, so she had that going against her too. Maybe she'll make an interesting villain.

[The_DUKE_inc]

She wasn't very interesting and she had an ugly costume. I agree that the no-speaking thing didn't help much either. For a lot of fans, Batgirl = Barbara Gordon, so she had that going against her too. Maybe she'll make an interesting villain.

Let's face it Batgirl was redundant form the start! Between Karate Kid, Batman, Black Canary, Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), Lady Shiva (Jade Canary), Nightwing, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Constantine Drakon etc etc etc.....and Azrael(the character she's most like) did we really need another cookie cutter martial arts/crimefighter?!

Hopefully, this "new" Batwomen is different all together and makes herself unique from the Batfamily. Regrading Cassandra, I think she'll make a MUCH better villian for Robin.

[LoneWolf21]

But why do a complete character 180 to make her a villian?

[The_DUKE_inc]

But why do a complete character 180 to make her a villian?

She was still a very young character when she was introduced..maybe 16? Was Lex Luther evil at 16?No, but he eventually became evil. It's not that hard to believe a girl trained to kill/murder/assasinate now decides to use her abilities to twisted ends.

IDK maybe they had this planned for her character fromt the start?

[LoneWolf21]

She was still a very young character when she was introduced..maybe 16? Was Lex Luther evil at 16?No, but he eventually became evil. It's not that hard to believe a girl trained to kill/murder/assasinate now decides to use her abilities to twisted ends.

IDK maybe they had this planned for her character fromt the start?

Her entire series has been her fighting that aspect of herself to become a better hero. Why suddenly just drop that?

[The_DUKE_inc]

Her entire series has been her fighting that aspect of herself to become a better hero. Why suddenly just drop that?

Then it makes sense I guess...she didnt' lose the battle just decided she could win by still killing but only when neccassry or against those she precieves as evil or against the League os Assasians. Makes her more complicated as a villian than just being another Kung-Fu crime-fighter clone...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Her entire series has been her fighting that aspect of herself to become a better hero. Why suddenly just drop that?

Agreed. It doesn't matter how many other karate characters there were out there, Cass had a nice, heroic niche going for her.

Hers was a constant struggle against nature and nurture, one of triumphing over horrible abuse daily. One of facing constant struggles dealing with every day life we take for granted and still coming out on top. It used to be Batman was described as 'caring too much'. But for the last few years, did anyone really believe that? For Cass' entire career, I believed she did.

Turning her into a villain is poor writing. It makes a complete and total failure of a strong female character for little reason whatsoever, considering we already have a rogue member of the Bat clan in Jason Todd. With Selina a stay at home mom, Leslie a murderer and Spoiler dead, I think enough is enough. The Bat office needs a change if they keep this policy up of destroying female characters.

What's more, Cass' origin is far more dynamic than almost anyone else's in the Bat family, except for Batman himself. Raised a killer, she struggles to redeem herself for a single murder.

That's a damn fine origin there with plenty of potential and tragedy. Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, they all depend upon Batman to define their character. And while Cass works perfectly in the Bat verse, her origin doesn't rely upon him. It simply works best in the noir-ish Batverse.

Are there other karate characters out there? Of course. There are a million Batman clones, after all. But none of them as the compelling and tragic origin that Cass does. Not Shiva, not Richard Dragon, not Bronze Tiger, no one.

To be honest, if you can't see how the character is different from the herd and is indeed her own character, you're just not looking hard enough.

[Captain Jim]

I thought, that the title grealty went better when Andersen Gabrych took over as writer.

I'd have to agree with that. His tenure instigated a change of direction for the book that was clearly cut off mid-stream. Too bad about that.

[IamtheRock3]

Well To Answer the Question

The way I see it, no matter if people feel she a bad charcter or not..

1) She had a fanbase

2) Her comic was not setting the world on fire but making money, more then a lot comics DC has still around

Ok we got that

Here the second parts

3) DC takes a new Direction

4) A new Batwoman in that direction(who oddly enough has red hair), so is scaling down the batman to the orginal, and essentials. Gordon, Bullock, Robin back in town

5) DC been trying to make the comic universe and TV,movie propeties meld a bit more (hench Cholie may be introduce, Superboy and lex in smallvill etc)


To me I dont see how creative change could NOT play a role in all this.

granted is Batgirl sales were better she may be still on but it would have to be a LOT better I think. I really would have to be burning the charts

[Damo]

Yeah, but what kind of villians has Robin faced over in his own comic? Sure there's the occasional Batman redux that happens, but other than that? An assortment of forgetable mobsters, Deathstroke ripoffs, a kid general. He had King Snake once but he was killed in Gotham Central as almost an aside.

True, but this is fairly late in the game for Robin. His book got started by nothing short of Joker AND Shiva paying him a guest visit. There were a few other big names, early in his run. Didn't he face Scarecrow in the first year or so? Dim recollection here.

In her own book, in 75 issues, Cass got Shiva (granted, very cool), a so-so appearance from Ivy, and quite possibly the worst Mr. Freeze story ever penned. Oh, and the Brotherhood of Evil, but as much as I love that French monkey, they aren't half the draw of a Bat-foe. By issue 50 of her first book, Catwoman had faced nearly every Bat-villain available. Even keeping in mind that "new villains" made up for a new book are generally fairly lackluster, Batgirl's foes seemed perplexingly unsuited for her. Here's a character touted as one of the best martial artists in the DCU, and she didn't end up the enemy of any M.A.s of note except for Shiva, Shrike, and quite possibly the worst incarnation of the League of Assassins ever assembled (when two of your world class martial artists are named Kitty and Wham Wham... I mean, yow).

Oh, and lest I forget, according to Birthright, when Lex was 16 he may not have been out and out evil, but he was definitely well on his way. Clark managed to to be an incredibly good influence in his life for a while, but it didn't take.

[nathanmcmaster]

I think it's only for reasons that lex is bad inside he's realy a nice guy i think.

[The Punished]

So again we must ask, anybody got an image of this new Batchick?

[Smokeyjay]

So again we must ask, anybody got an image of this new Batchick?


Its in one of the threads on the Batman board. The one with IC#7 and new Batgirl. Its also in the comic IC#7.

I think the new costume is terrible. And the new Batgirl looks pretty old. But that could be the drawer.

But if there going with a new Batgirl, they should make her into a teenager so she could at least interact with Supergirl. I thought the character interaction in Batman the cartoon between SG and BG was pretty good.

I liked Cassandras costume, and I don't see why people think the costumes intention was for horny fan boys. The costume did not scream sexy to me at all. You couldn't see her face and her mask was just creepy. If you want horny, look at Supergirl. At least Batgirl doesn't fly around in a mini-skirt.

[Joker2503]

She was still a very young character when she was introduced..maybe 16? Was Lex Luther evil at 16?No, but he eventually became evil. It's not that hard to believe a girl trained to kill/murder/assasinate now decides to use her abilities to twisted ends.

IDK maybe they had this planned for her character fromt the start?

This is TOTALLY out of left field, but now that Rose has joined the Titans, maybe Deathstroke needs a new Ravager...

I have nothing at all that makes me think that, and it may not even be remotely plausible, but it seems like a pretty sweet idea to me. Kind of Slade saying, "You turned a member of my family, not I'm going to turn a member of yours"

[Damo]

I have nothing at all that makes me think that, and it may not even be remotely plausible, but it seems like a pretty sweet idea to me. Kind of Slade saying, "You turned a member of my family, not I'm going to turn a member of yours"

To which Batman would reply: "Yeah, sure, go ahead. My second surrogate son has turned against me, as has my surrogate daughter. Who do you wanna turn? Tim? Dick? Whatever, they're all going to turn on me anyway.

I'm the worst father figure ever."

[Smokeyjay]

Maybe Cassandra can join up with previously dead Robin and become anti-heros. Kind of like the anti-Bat family.

I think it would be kind of neat if they did join up with Slade and have Slade be like the anti-version of Batman, but that would run totatally counter to Cassandras character.

[protege]

Its in one of the threads on the Batman board. The one with IC#7 and new Batgirl. Its also in the comic IC#7.

I think the new costume is terrible. And the new Batgirl looks pretty old. But that could be the drawer.

But if there going with a new Batgirl, they should make her into a teenager so she could at least interact with Supergirl. I thought the character interaction in Batman the cartoon between SG and BG was pretty good.

I liked Cassandras costume, and I don't see why people think the costumes intention was for horny fan boys. The costume did not scream sexy to me at all. You couldn't see her face and her mask was just creepy. If you want horny, look at Supergirl. At least Batgirl doesn't fly around in a mini-skirt.
Which is why she's called BatWOMAN.

[Smokeyjay]

Which is why she's called BatWOMAN.


weird, I always thought of her as Batgirl. I guess I still see her as from the Batman cartoon show as well as young Barbara Gordon.

[Blight]

True, but this is fairly late in the game for Robin. His book got started by nothing short of Joker AND Shiva paying him a guest visit. There were a few other big names, early in his run. Didn't he face Scarecrow in the first year or so? Dim recollection here.

In her own book, in 75 issues, Cass got Shiva (granted, very cool), a so-so appearance from Ivy, and quite possibly the worst Mr. Freeze story ever penned. Oh, and the Brotherhood of Evil, but as much as I love that French monkey, they aren't half the draw of a Bat-foe. By issue 50 of her first book, Catwoman had faced nearly every Bat-villain available. Even keeping in mind that "new villains" made up for a new book are generally fairly lackluster, Batgirl's foes seemed perplexingly unsuited for her. Here's a character touted as one of the best martial artists in the DCU, and she didn't end up the enemy of any M.A.s of note except for Shiva, Shrike, and quite possibly the worst incarnation of the League of Assassins ever assembled (when two of your world class martial artists are named Kitty and Wham Wham... I mean, yow).

Oh, and lest I forget, according to Birthright, when Lex was 16 he may not have been out and out evil, but he was definitely well on his way. Clark managed to to be an incredibly good influence in his life for a while, but it didn't take.


You forgot Penguin, Deathstroke, Ravager, Oynx, Bronze Tiger, an O.M.A.C., Superboy, Connor, Alexander Luthor, Caculator, Talia, Poison Ivy, and of course David Cain himself. Still most of those where later appearances or cameos.

My hope is that Cassie adopts the Spoiler costume in honor of Steph. That would perfectly square be with me and probably a lot of her fans.

Slade would NEVER except Cassie after 1. What she did to Rose 2. Embrassing him with underestimating her. Besides she's almost near his level of fighting anyway why need an apprentice when she doesn't have much to learn?


Though there are two reasons why I don't think Cassie is behind the current arc:

1.) By Leading a League of Assassins she's exactly filling the role of her father, mother, and what Ra's Al Ghul always wanted her to be. Wasn't the whole point of the last issue of her series to escape the shadows of these people and the Bat?

2.) As stated above it be a horrible use of Cassie just to become a killer, a anti-Batfamily member ala Jason Todd. Cause well we have Jason Todd being the anti-Bat family. Why bring it about again?

3.) The way someone was killed in the first part of this arc in Robin. Cassie is many things but to kill this person via boom boom is not her style. Nor is it to make someone suffer. If she kills it's in one move and quick ala what she did in the second to last issue.

4.) Why was she stalking Tim in the first part then? Wouldn't she want to confront him instead of setting up this huge game? Again games aren't Cassie's style she's an up front person.

5.) What's the point of busting David Cain out? To kill him? She could had done it numerous times in the past and currently in this arc. But deep down inside we've seen that she still loves her father even after the crap he put her through.

[Damo]

You forgot Penguin, Deathstroke, Ravager, Oynx, Bronze Tiger, an O.M.A.C., Superboy, Connor, Alexander Luthor, Caculator, Talia, Poison Ivy, and of course David Cain himself. Still most of those where later appearances or cameos.

I forgot Deathstroke and Ravager, yes. My bad. But like you said, the vast majority of the people on that list were very late in the run, and mostly a few panels of appearance. It's not the same as going up against The Joker while getting training from Shiva, in the very first few issues of your book.

Cain was made up specifically for Cass. He only becomes a big villain if you've decided you like Batgirl and her baggage, otherwise he's like "The Order of Dumas" was for Azrael.

And OMACs are as common as flies, hardly a big villain to draw people to the book.



1.) By Leading a League of Assassins she's exactly filling the role of her father, mother, and what Ra's Al Ghul always wanted her to be. Wasn't the whole point of the last issue of her series to escape the shadows of these people and the Bat?

Yes, it was. Which is why people are so torqued at the possibility that it's being tossed in favor of giving Robin his very own "Jason Todd". You're right that it's a horrible idea. That's not proof that it won't be done. Every OYL issue of Nightwing has been a horrible idea, and they've gotten published.

Everything you said is a very logical point. Unfortunately I don't think logical points work in dealing with a writer that thought Tim should go into a police station dressed as Robin, when the police are under orders to shoot Robin, considering the fact that he apparently could have walked into the station in a police uniform and fooled everyone. Or a writer that thought Cass should know Navajo. Logic clearly has nothing to do with this arc.

[Jmacq1]

I forgot Deathstroke and Ravager, yes. My bad. But like you said, the vast majority of the people on that list were very late in the run, and mostly a few panels of appearance. It's not the same as going up against The Joker while getting training from Shiva, in the very first few issues of your book.

Cain was made up specifically for Cass. He only becomes a big villain if you've decided you like Batgirl and her baggage, otherwise he's like "The Order of Dumas" was for Azrael.

I beg to differ: The Order of Dumas never got to be the main villain of a huge Batman story arc/crossover ("Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive"). Cain was initially set up as a major player and a potential "high profile" villain for both Batman -and- Cassandra, back in the days before DC decided to let the Bat-family completely forget that they had a Batgirl running around, too (and decided to just let Cain languish in prison).

I always had a feeling that some of Batgirl's writers had a full "arc" in mind for Cain, but they never really got around to portraying it. I also fear that his potential pending appearance in Robin may well be his last. Which would suck, because I really thought he was a cool character that had a lot of potential if someone took the time to develop him.

[Damo]

I beg to differ: The Order of Dumas never got to be the main villain of a huge Batman story arc/crossover ("Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive"). Cain was initially set up as a major player and a potential "high profile" villain for both Batman -and- Cassandra,

Actually, I disagree. You're looking at two rather different periods in DC's publishing history. For its time I believe that the Order of Dumas and Azrael's relationship to them were given a similar amount of publicity that Cain got with the introduction of Cass. Yes, the "Bruce Wayne: ..." stories were big and all over the place, but they happened in a period where if it wasn't big and all over the place it didn't matter. After Contagion and No Man's Land and Infection and aaaaaall the other big overblown crossovers, DC had gotten into the habit of stretching a story that should have taken 6 or so issues into massive multiparters taking multiple volumes to collect. Either way, Cain was so linked to Cass (like Dumas was to Azrael) that you weren't exactly going to get any new readers in Batgirl by featuring him in it.

[matrix]

Actually, I disagree. You're looking at two rather different periods in DC's publishing history. For its time I believe that the Order of Dumas and Azrael's relationship to them were given a similar amount of publicity that Cain got with the introduction of Cass. Yes, the "Bruce Wayne: ..." stories were big and all over the place, but they happened in a period where if it wasn't big and all over the place it didn't matter. After Contagion and No Man's Land and Infection and aaaaaall the other big overblown crossovers, DC had gotten into the habit of stretching a story that should have taken 6 or so issues into massive multiparters taking multiple volumes to collect. Either way, Cain was so linked to Cass (like Dumas was to Azrael) that you weren't exactly going to get any new readers in Batgirl by featuring him in it. http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/27120336/ how I feel on the cass situation. :( edit: this was not draw by me either.

[Damo]

10 YEARS IN THE FUTURE

Hal: "Hang on a minute... why, this isn't Parallax in the Main Battery! It's a dummy spray painted yellow! Sound the alarm, who knows what damage that Yellow Fear Monster's been doing, or how long he's been out!"

[Blight]

The thing I don't get.. and again this falls back onto actually thinking this through. Why not also go after Shiva if Cassie is behind this all? I mean why not just go for all family members? Why Cain in particular? Just because he made you?

Still the clues are just too obvious and reminding me and other's of the first appearance of Ra's Al Ghul. And again the more I think about this can't be Cassie behind it, some more reasons:

1.) The way someone is killed in the second part of this Robin arc. It's way too vicious which isn't Cassie's style again. If she's going to make a person suffer she'll stop the person's heart or something.

2.) Also noticing the movements of the killer, they looked almost like a male.

The only thing that's making me think this isn't Cassie is the fact it could be Mad Dog whose trying to bring out his sis in bringing Robin out, the last person she actually cares (whose in the public eye since no body knows about Babs) alive.

I'm just really hoping that Cassie isn't going to be evil if she appears in the next issue. If she is, I am so writing an angry letter to DC on their disrespect of the female side of the Bat Family.

By the by Matrix that's an awesome picture of Cassie.

[Damo]

It couldn't be Mad Dog Cain. Whoever the speaker is, they're not talking like a bad Gollum ripoff.

[Nate Grey]

It couldn't be Mad Dog Cain. Whoever the speaker is, they're not talking like a bad Gollum ripoff.

That is a good point, though I never thought it was Mad Dog, as Mad Dog is about as big as Bane and the attacker is very slender, like Anarky or Cass. I hope the speech pattern is a clue its NOT Cass, though I guess its possible to learn proper syntax in a year's time.

[Blight]

That is a good point, though I never thought it was Mad Dog, as Mad Dog is about as big as Bane and the attacker is very slender, like Anarky or Cass. I hope the speech pattern is a clue its NOT Cass, though I guess its possible to learn proper syntax in a year's time.

It took Cassie how long to speak and it takes a year for her to develop proper syntax. Eh, hopeful wishes I guess it be Mad Dog. Was there any other students of David Cain then these five:

Bruce Wayne
Mad Dog
Lady Shiva
Cassandra Cain
Woman who appeared in Part Two of the Robin arc

[Damo]

Well, Deadshot, but I bet you a million dollars it's not him.

[estee]

Perhaps Batgirl suffers from the same affliction Kyle Rayner has. He was supposed to be the next Green Latern, but it just didn't jibe with the fans.

Cassie was supposed to be the next generation in the Bat-family. A darker member, living in a deeper grey area than the others. But again it just didn't jibe on the scale DC was looking for. So she couldn't move in and take over the space that Tim or Dick held.

So now DC goes back to the basics, with Hal and (maybe) Babs returning to their old positions in the hero world. And both Kyle and Cassie are moved to the sidelines.

This is all conjecture on my part, as I never followed the character too closely.

[Blight]

In actuality you can only compare so much with Kyle and Cassie with just the fact they're replacements. Kyle came in just right after a controversal story that axed Hal, Cassie never had that.

How long was it since the Killing Joke to the Huntress becoming Batgirl II then Cassie becoming III? Ten years? Maybe less?

Though like Kyle the moment the rumblings came that Batgirl II id would be revealed soon, Cassie debuts not soon afterward before the big reveal to adopt being Batgirl III. So very little introduction before becoming the actual character they do share.

Though if this was true in Cassie's case then Babs would be replacing her, but that isn't the case as Babs is still very much Oracle in BoP, just that there isn't any Batgirl in the world at the moment.

We still have very little clue who Batwoman is, other than it's not Cassie and probably not Babs. Though another feature Kyle and Cassie that seperates them somewhat too is the fact certain writers from DC just don't like her.

*coughes Jeph Loeb and his lack of Cassie love with no mention of her in Hush or Babs version appearing in S/B*

[Choppa]

Someone did say this on the first page but I want to back it up. I love Batgirl, though she is basically identical to Azrael, another character which I really like.

[Nate Grey]

Okay, Batgirl getting cancelled was a creative decision. How much was it outselling Catwoman and Aquaman by? I mean it WAS outselling them, just wondering by how much.

[JulianPerez]

I never knew or read about this new Batgirl that doesn't talk (in fact, that she existed at all wasn't brought to my attention until a little while ago) however, the way she sounds, perhaps she may make a scary villain for the same reason Superboy-Prime makes a frightening villain: their power level and skill is so godlike that it's very easy to have them arouse fear, because they are in fact a credible threat.

One complaint I'm seeing a lot of is that Batgirl is the BESTEST Martial Artist in the whole wide world, which rankles a lot of people because of the Mary Sueism. However, the very thing that bothers people because she is a heroine, her very disadvantage, can become an ADVANTAGE as a superfoe: she makes the other characters the underdog.

[Blight]

I never knew or read about this new Batgirl that doesn't talk (in fact, that she existed at all wasn't brought to my attention until a little while ago) however, the way she sounds, perhaps she may make a scary villain for the same reason Superboy-Prime makes a frightening villain: their power level and skill is so godlike that it's very easy to have them arouse fear, because they are in fact a credible threat.

One complaint I'm seeing a lot of is that Batgirl is the BESTEST Martial Artist in the whole wide world, which rankles a lot of people because of the Mary Sueism. However, the very thing that bothers people because she is a heroine, her very disadvantage, can become an ADVANTAGE as a superfoe: she makes the other characters the underdog.


Cassie could be the best Martial Artist in the DCU, but she isn't the best. This point is made when she fights Deathstroke in her book #63 and 64. The entire fight Cassie is able to hold her own against Slade, and she knows Slade isn't taking her seriously which steps up fight two her vs. Ravager.

More when fighting Ravager, Cassie knows she hasn't a chance in hell against both Slade and Rose thus finds a way to avoid fighting Slade.

The same goes to her match early on against Shiva in #25. Cassie thinks there's no hope and writes good-byes to both Oracle and Batman. Those are just two examples of Cassie not being the best fighter alive. And there have been other fights in Cassie's books where she isn't the underdog. Course there are examples of Cassie showing how good a fighter she truly is. But I rather make the case Cassie's foes aren't always the underdogs in their fights with her.

And Cassie still has weaknesses that can be exploited. The fact she isn't the greatest detective and is more hit first ask questions later have been a great weakness she's had.

[Nate Grey]

And Cassie still has weaknesses that can be exploited. The fact she isn't the greatest detective and is more hit first ask questions later have been a great weakness she's had.

Bingo. Yet this is overlooked by everyone stuck on this "She's better than Batman so she's boring" kick. She's better than Batman in martial arts, but he's better than HER in everything else. Very rarely does Batman beat foes by brawn alone. He's an ultimate tactician and strategist, something Batgirl isn't. If it was a sudden fight between the two Bats would lose...if it was a planned fight, or if HE got the drop on her, SHE'D lose cause he does this stuff in his sleep.

Her LEARNING to be a a detective is something they could have had her do over the course of the year she was gone instead of this 360 as a Robin villain. Or maybe they want her to be Robin's very own Talia in a way, I don't know.

And do all of these arguments work only if you ignore she outsold two books that remained after the OYL jump? We know she got cancelled for creative reasons, but that still doesn't erase that fact. So by how much did she outsell them? Minor or alot?

[IamtheRock3]

I know she was in the top 100

Never fail under

in the 70's on her worst day. So think she outsold them by a bit. It was deffintly a good saler...just not a GREAT one.

[GozertheGozarian]

This (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=77471&highlight=batgirl+orcs) is why I don't like Cassandra Cain.

[Nate Grey]

I know she was in the top 100

Never fail under

in the 70's on her worst day. So think she outsold them by a bit.

Thanks. I guess that's as good an answer as I'm gonna get.

It was deffintly a good saler...just not a GREAT one.

Yet still greater than the ones who got spared. If anything that would have told Didio she has fans that would have loved to see her "silver-aged" somehow with the rest of the DCU.

I get she didn't sell that great...I also get Catwoman and Aquaman sold WORSE in comparison.

[Blight]

And do all of these arguments work only if you ignore she outsold two books that remained after the OYL jump? We know she got cancelled for creative reasons, but that still doesn't erase that fact. So by how much did she outsell them? Minor or alot?

Here's what I found thus far so far she was doing better then most of the core Batman books, Robin, and Nightwing. Her run was really steady:

(63) BATGIRL
03/ 2003: Batgirl #38 -- 30,686
04/ 2003: Batgirl #39 -- 30,090 (- 1.9%)
05/ 2003: Batgirl #40 -- 30,172 (+ 0.3%)
06/ 2003: Batgirl #41 -- 29,694 (- 1.6%)
07/ 2003: Batgirl #42 -- 29,144 (- 1.9%)
08/ 2003: Batgirl #43 -- 27,998 (- 3.9%)
09/ 2003: Batgirl #44 -- 27,796 (- 0.7%)
10/ 2003: Batgirl #45 -- 28,029 (+ 0.8%)
11/ 2003: Batgirl #46 -- 27,167 (- 3.1%)
12/ 2003: Batgirl #47 -- 26,485 (- 2.5%)
01/ 2004: Batgirl #48 -- 25,718 (- 2.9%)
02/ 2004: Batgirl #49 -- 25,258 (- 1.8%)
03/ 2004: Batgirl #50 -- 29,897 (+18.4%)
04/ 2004: Batgirl #51 -- 25,793 (-13.7%)
05/ 2004: Batgirl #52 -- 26,418 (+ 2.4%)
06/ 2004: Batgirl #53 -- 30,371 (+15.0%)
07/ 2004: Batgirl #54 -- 25,905 (-14.7%)
08/ 2004: Batgirl #55 -- 39,469 (+52.4%) -- [43,494]
09/ 2004: Batgirl #56 -- 39,493 (+ 0.1%) -- [42,088]
10/ 2004: Batgirl #57 -- 39,631 (+ 0.4%) -- [41,136]
11/ 2004: Batgirl #58 -- 31,056 (-21.6%) -- [32,932]
12/ 2004: Batgirl #59 -- 31,028 (- 0.1%)

Comparing too..


(84) CATWOMAN
12/ 2003: Catwoman #26 -- 24,601 (- 6.6%)
01/ 2004: Catwoman #27 -- 25,023 (+ 1.7%) -- [26,175]
02/ 2004: Catwoman #28 -- 23,955 (- 4.3%)
03/ 2004: Catwoman #29 -- 23,811 (- 0.6%)
04/ 2004: Catwoman #30 -- 24,286 (+ 2.0%)
05/ 2004: Catwoman #31 -- 24,250 (- 0.2%)
06/ 2004: Catwoman #32 -- 24,040 (- 0.9%)
07/ 2004: Catwoman #33 -- 24,007 (- 0.1%)
08/ 2004: Catwoman #34 -- 37,033 (+54.3%) -- [42,098]
09/ 2004: Catwoman #35 -- 37,784 (+ 2.0%) -- [41,239]
10/ 2004: Catwoman #36 -- 37,554 (- 0.6%) -- [40,226]
11/ 2004: Catwoman #37 -- 26,107 (-30.5%)
12/ 2004: Catwoman #38 -- 25,108 (- 3.8%)
6 / 12 months: +0.3% / +2.1%

65) GREEN ARROW
12/ 2003: Green Arrow #33 -- 36,934 (-3.8%)
01/ 2004: Green Arrow #34 -- 35,986 (-2.6%)
02/ 2004: Green Arrow #35 -- 35,507 (-1.3%)
03/ 2004: Green Arrow #36 -- 34,707 (-2.3%)
04/ 2004: Green Arrow #37 -- 34,124 (-1.7%)
05/ 2004: Green Arrow #38 -- 34,037 (-0.3%)
06/ 2004: Green Arrow #39 -- 33,324 (-2.1%)
07/ 2004: Green Arrow #40 -- 32,635 (-2.1%)
08/ 2004: Green Arrow #41 -- 32,269 (-1.1%)
09/ 2004: Green Arrow #42 -- 31,714 (-1.7%)
10/ 2004: Green Arrow #43 -- 32,133 (+1.3%)
11/ 2004: Green Arrow #44 -- 32,159 (+0.1%)
12/ 2004: Green Arrow #45 -- 30,997 (-3.6%)
6 / 12 months: -7.0% / -16.1%

(69) BIRDS OF PREY
12/ 2003: Birds of Prey #62 -- 30,529 (-0.8%)
01/ 2004: Birds of Prey #63 -- 29,725 (-2.6%)
02/ 2004: Birds of Prey #64 -- 29,731 (+0.0%)
03/ 2004: Birds of Prey #65 -- 30,505 (+2.6%)
04/ 2004: Birds of Prey #66 -- 31,525 (+3.3%)
05/ 2004: Birds of Prey #67 -- 31,846 (+1.0%)
06/ 2004: Birds of Prey #68 -- 32,034 (+0.6%)
07/ 2004: Birds of Prey #69 -- 31,904 (-0.4%)
07/ 2004: Birds of Prey #70 -- 31,683 (-0.7%)
08/ 2004: Birds of Prey #71 -- 32,298 (+1.9%)
08/ 2004: Birds of Prey #72 -- 31,835 (-1.4%)
09/ 2004: Birds of Prey #73 -- 32,070 (+0.7%)
09/ 2004: Birds of Prey #74 -- 31,835 (-0.7%)
10/ 2004: Birds of Prey #75 -- 32,091 (+0.8%)
11/ 2004: Birds of Prey #76 -- 31,126 (-3.0%)
12/ 2004: Birds of Prey #77 -- 30,303 (-2.6%)
6 / 12 months: -5.4% / -0.7%

(86) WONDER WOMAN
12/ 2003: Wonder Woman #199 -- 29,224 (+ 0.9%)
01/ 2004: Wonder Woman #200 -- 38,007 (+30.1%) -- [43,800]
02/ 2004: Wonder Woman #201 -- 29,210 (-23.2%)
03/ 2004: Wonder Woman #202 -- 28,646 (- 1.9%)
04/ 2004: Wonder Woman #203 -- 30,418 (+ 6.2%)
05/ 2004: Wonder Woman #204 -- 30,377 (- 0.1%)
06/ 2004: Wonder Woman #205 -- 29,233 (- 3.8%)
07/ 2004: Wonder Woman #206 -- 28,038 (- 4.1%)
08/ 2004: Wonder Woman #207 -- 27,187 (- 3.0%)
09/ 2004: Wonder Woman #208 -- 26,628 (- 2.1%)
10/ 2004: Wonder Woman #209 -- 25,964 (- 2.5%)
11/ 2004: Wonder Woman #210 -- 25,699 (- 1.0%)
12/ 2004: Wonder Woman #211 -- 24,828 (- 3.4%)

(110) FIRESTORM
05/ 2004: Firestorm #1 -- 46,292 -- [47,963]
06/ 2004: Firestorm #2 -- 35,398 (-23.5%)
07/ 2004: Firestorm #3 -- 31,000 (-12.4%)
08/ 2004: Firestorm #4 -- 28,402 (- 8.4%)
09/ 2004: Firestorm #5 -- 26,429 (- 7.0%)
10/ 2004: Firestorm #6 -- 28,034 (+ 6.1%) -- [29,743]
11/ 2004: Firestorm #7 -- 22,109 (-21.1%)
12/ 2004: Firestorm #8 -- 21,077 (- 4.7%)
6 months: -40.5%

I'll post the later issues figures once I find them

[Blight]

Now.. the last issue of Batgirl.

(78) BATGIRL
02/2004: Batgirl #49 -- 25,258
------------------------------
02/2005: Batgirl #61 -- 28,796 (- 1.5%)
03/2005: Batgirl #62 -- 28,750 (- 0.2%)
04/2005: Batgirl #63 -- 28,123 (- 2.2%)
05/2005: Batgirl #64 -- 28,049 (- 0.3%)
06/2005: Batgirl #65 -- 26,796 (- 4.5%)
07/2005: Batgirl #66 -- 26,959 (+ 0.6%)
08/2005: Batgirl #67 -- 28,159 (+ 4.5%)
09/2005: Batgirl #68 -- 27,199 (- 3.4%)
10/2005: Batgirl #69 -- 26,870 (- 1.2%)
11/2005: Batgirl #70 -- 27,002 (+ 0.5%)
12/2005: Batgirl #71 -- 26,378 (- 2.3%)
01/2006: Batgirl #72 -- 26,480 (+ 0.4%)
02/2006: Batgirl #73 -- 26,546 (+ 0.3%)
----------------
6 months: -5.7%
1 year : -7.8%
2 years : +5.1%


And it did better than these STILL Ongoing titles:

02/2006: Catwoman #52 -- 21,954 (- 3.2%)
02/2006: Firestorm #22 -- 21,104 (- 6.2%)
02/2006: Manhunter #19 -- 12,970 (- 1.8%)
02/2006: Hawkman #49 -- 25,031 (+ 3.2%)


I guess if you include that the later changed to Hawkgirl.

[Jmacq1]

Heh, so basically she was even selling equal to or better than DC's "flagship" super-heroine, to boot.

Of course, we already know why DC can't cancel Wonder Woman for any great length of time.

Basically, about 27,000 fans just got the shaft from Didio.

[Nate Grey]

Now.. the last issue of Batgirl.

(78) BATGIRL
02/2004: Batgirl #49 -- 25,258
------------------------------
02/2005: Batgirl #61 -- 28,796 (- 1.5%)
03/2005: Batgirl #62 -- 28,750 (- 0.2%)
04/2005: Batgirl #63 -- 28,123 (- 2.2%)
05/2005: Batgirl #64 -- 28,049 (- 0.3%)
06/2005: Batgirl #65 -- 26,796 (- 4.5%)
07/2005: Batgirl #66 -- 26,959 (+ 0.6%)
08/2005: Batgirl #67 -- 28,159 (+ 4.5%)
09/2005: Batgirl #68 -- 27,199 (- 3.4%)
10/2005: Batgirl #69 -- 26,870 (- 1.2%)
11/2005: Batgirl #70 -- 27,002 (+ 0.5%)
12/2005: Batgirl #71 -- 26,378 (- 2.3%)
01/2006: Batgirl #72 -- 26,480 (+ 0.4%)
02/2006: Batgirl #73 -- 26,546 (+ 0.3%)
----------------
6 months: -5.7%
1 year : -7.8%
2 years : +5.1%


And it did better than these STILL Ongoing titles:

02/2006: Catwoman #52 -- 21,954 (- 3.2%)
02/2006: Firestorm #22 -- 21,104 (- 6.2%)
02/2006: Manhunter #19 -- 12,970 (- 1.8%)
02/2006: Hawkman #49 -- 25,031 (+ 3.2%)


I guess if you include that the later changed to Hawkgirl.

Good gravy. Nothing but the FINEST crack for Didio, it seems.

[IamtheRock3]

This (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=77471&highlight=batgirl+orcs) is why I don't like Cassandra Cain.

in fairness who COULDNT least take a 100 orcs

A few 100 more aint no big deal..there 1 step above hand ninja

[IamtheRock3]

Thanks. I guess that's as good an answer as I'm gonna get.



Yet still greater than the ones who got spared. If anything that would have told Didio she has fans that would have loved to see her "silver-aged" somehow with the rest of the DCU.

I get she didn't sell that great...I also get Catwoman and Aquaman sold WORSE in comparison.


Hey think it sucks as well

beleave it was a creative thing. Just saying it might of been saved if it sold more

But concede it would have to sale A LOT!!! I mean top 20

Because manhunter and them probally didnt interfear with the creative route they were going

Guessing batgirl did by the way she was treated in other books during her exitence.

[Blight]

Hey think it sucks as well

beleave it was a creative thing. Just saying it might of been saved if it sold more

But concede it would have to sale A LOT!!! I mean top 20

Because manhunter and them probally didnt interfear with the creative route they were going

Guessing batgirl did by the way she was treated in other books during her exitence.

The only books Cassie appeared in post No Man's Land I think were:

Robin
Green Arrow
Harley Quinn (maybe I could be wrong)
Teen Titans (well Rose posed as her)
Superboy

That's about it I think. Someone can correct me.

Also please, didn't Gimli and Legolas Orc kills go up to 500 or more? :p Darn Orcs where worse than Storm Troopers. Least you could beat those guys with just rocks. With Orcs you could kill them with a mere glance.

However I just want to say that during the last issue Wonder Woman WAS selling more than Batgirl. As was Birds of Prey and Green Arrow. So a year later those books did improve.

Though Batgirl did have a loyal fanbase that much can be certain from the information I gathered on the sales. Though you have to admit it also genuis on DC's part.

No doubt those 29,000 are buying the current issues of Robin hoping to see their favorite character. Also I want to mention a common trend I'm seeing in comic book stores around where I live.

Batgirl back issues under the last writer, Andersen Gabrych, are very much a rarity. To find particular issues of his run I'm finding difficult.

[Nate Grey]

The only books Cassie appeared in post No Man's Land I think were:

Robin
Green Arrow
Harley Quinn (maybe I could be wrong)
Teen Titans (well Rose posed as her)
Superboy

I don't remember the Teen Titans one, but I remember her appearing in Young Justice. It was like a "Team B" of sorts with CM3 and Flamebird, among others.

Yeah, she appeared in Harley Quinn. Don't remember the story details, though. Well, except that Harley somehow knew her real name.

Though Batgirl did have a loyal fanbase that much can be certain from the information I gathered on the sales. Though you have to admit it also genuis on DC's part.

No doubt those 29,000 are buying the current issues of Robin hoping to see their favorite character. Also I want to mention a common trend I'm seeing in comic book stores around where I live.

Good point. Which is why I hope its a case of "Ha! Had ya going! She's not really going to be villain!" It could be that or a case of bait and switch: they make her a villain, but hope since they got us to look at the comic to see her, we'll see how good ROBIN is and keep buying. The could work, or it could backfire. Who knows.

[Forsaken_One]

She was also in Young Justice before it was killed. Oh, and she was a major member of Justice League Elite as I remember, that was kinda a major role. And, as I recall, she was in Birds of Prey once or twice.

[Blight]

In all truth I used to buy Robin but left when the writer didn't deal with the issues of Steph Brown and his father's death as much to focus on the assasin of the month.
I've returned to Robin only because I was interested in the art and the fact Cassie plays a part in it. I'll probably be on the title since the writer IS answering these questions I wanted to see answered in Robin's book.

The Rose posing as her came during that whole Dr. Light arc on Teen Titans.

[Nate Grey]

In all truth I used to buy Robin but left when the writer didn't deal with the issues of Steph Brown and his father's death as much to focus on the assasin of the month.
I've returned to Robin only because I was interested in the art and the fact Cassie plays a part in it. I'll probably be on the title since the writer IS answering these questions I wanted to see answered in Robin's book.

Put me down for art + Cass, but mostly Cass. Shiva's guest appearance helped, too. I liked the way their "fight" was drawn.

The Rose posing as her came during that whole Dr. Light arc on Teen Titans.

Wow. Not sure how I missed that.

[Blight]

Put me down for art + Cass, but mostly Cass. Shiva's guest appearance helped, too. I liked the way their "fight" was drawn.



Wow. Not sure how I missed that.

Yeah and the other hold overs from the final arc in Cassie's book surprised me too.

[wonk]

I received the following via email:

Won, I'd rather take this issue over most of Nightwing's run from 71 up plus 118 to 120.

I have no basis for judging that comment. I dropped Nightwing from the pull list soon after Dixon/Land left the title for Crossgen, though I continued to pick up issues now and then.

I still have to beg to differ. The script to Robin #150 has it's virtues (there is nothing wrong with the art) but by choosing to portray Cass as a psycho (in an effort to explain her "reaching out" to Tim) Beechum and the editors must have known they would anger Cassandra's fans, including myself). As I've said, I don't mind Cass crossing over the side of the demons - that's actually a very interesting twist. However given the way the Batgirl series ended, I saw it as a rational decision born of conviction, not psychosis. I really do not care for the loonier aspects of Beechum's portrayal of Cassandra, and i really hope it does not stick.

NOTE: D. Newton - I would have replied via email, but I got a message my attempts did not get through to you. My apologies.

[Damo]

I never knew or read about this new Batgirl that doesn't talk (in fact, that she existed at all wasn't brought to my attention until a little while ago) however, the way she sounds, perhaps she may make a scary villain for the same reason Superboy-Prime makes a frightening villain: their power level and skill is so godlike that it's very easy to have them arouse fear, because they are in fact a credible threat.

This is all true, but people are rankled because there's a clear departure from known personality and history. It would be as if Superman found out there was another Kryptonian out there, and went off in a sulk, refusing to do anything, explaining that the only reason he'd ever been a superhero was because he thought he was the only Kryptonian.

Aside from the fact that "being the only one" was never part of his motivation, you'd be wondering how, for the love of Kandor, he could forget all the other Kryptonians he'd met over the years. Here we've got a character that had always been as strictly against killing as Superman himself, turning into a killer. She rejects the teachings of Batman, the surrogate father she clearly loved and wanted to be, because she finds out her biological father - a man that she has found repulsive since her childhood - had another "daughter". That's it. That's the entire explanation for her turning evil. Which makes no sense, since she had found out about other "siblings" in the past, and didn't seem bothered at all.

It's true that Batgirl's skills would make her an excellent villain. The trouble is that the way it was done shows no respect for the character's history. It flat out contradicts that history in nearly every way possible. Superman's powers would make him the most dangerous villain in the history of DC, but if someone tried to make him a bad guy with an explanation that both contradicted and insulted his history, it would be utterly unacceptable. That's what's happened here.

[heretic]

One complaint I'm seeing a lot of is that Batgirl is the BESTEST Martial Artist in the whole wide world, which rankles a lot of people because of the Mary Sueism. However, the very thing that bothers people because she is a heroine, her very disadvantage, can become an ADVANTAGE as a superfoe: she makes the other characters the underdog.
Problem is, making her a villian poopnent without junking all prior characterisation is pretty hard (not to mention redundant, didn't we have Shiva already?).

More to the point I disagree about how much of a negative her MadKungFuSkilz were as a heroine. Most heroes start out as persons with a concience/drive and fight to gain abilities that would help them Make A Difference (the Spoiler is a case in point).

Cassandra starts out a nightmare killing machine from heck... and wend forth on a journey to become human.

HTG

[wonk]

Elsewhere a friend wrote:

I read the issue yesterday and, I have to say, I kinda liked it. Yeah, I think the turn of events was a bit odd considering a lot of Cass's development happened off-camera and in the last few issues of her series.

There's no question the new team has it's strengths. Beechum certainly plots well, as his scripts have room for generous, fun action scenes for the penciller to play with. Very Dixon like.

However,...I agree... that Cass was acting a lil too crazy. Personally, I think she should've been as cold & cool as her mother. And this development about her wanting Tim to be with her is out of left field. I mean, yeah....it kinda makes sense based on what she said but, if she means in a romantic sense, then it really doesn't make any sense.

It's the characterization that makes my eyes turn red. An over-reaction? Maybe. I did what i could to push people to write in as a response. I don't expect anyone to "back off" or anything like that. I hope they just bury the characterization once the arc is over if not the change in Cassandra's circumstances. In terms of Beechum's Robin, I miss the way Willingham wrote him. Beechum's Robin isn't as confident or as independent nor as wily.

[d newton]

Some examples of why I thought most of the last 13 issues of Batgirl were boring:
- The villains. Who calls a bad guy "Mad Dog?" nowdays.
- Issue 73 had questions that haven't been answered (how did Shiva survive being killed?) / (what happened to Batgirl during the one year gap?).

[The Xenos]

Yeah, those last issues of Batgirl were confusing and terrible. I skipped through most of one issue because it was a seeminly pointless and boring fight scene. I mainly wanted to see if DC would unfortunately kill Cassandra. Now... I rather wish they did! It's like they did and now turned her into some sort of walking cliche zombie.

Waaah, my daddy didn't love me so I'll kill the leage of assasin's head (who just killed her father Ra's not that long ago when they introduced the character) and take it all over. That's not a out of left field, that's a surprise coming from a whole different ballpark.

I finally read the issue and it was painful. The Robin bits were neat, but I kept thinking there was no wait it could be Cassandra. Again, they just flushed a major female Bat character down the toilet. It's not a WiR, that would be Cass's late friend Spoiler. This is more 'Leslie Thompkins Syndrome' as was said over on the Gail Simone board.

I guess they needed Cassandra out of the picture and turned evil so they have room for Montoya (or someone) to play the new character of Batwoman. Holy crap, that's lame.

[Blight]

Some examples of why I thought most of the last 13 issues of Batgirl were boring:
- The villains. Who calls a bad guy "Mad Dog?" nowdays.
- Issue 73 had questions that haven't been answered (how did Shiva survive being killed?) / (what happened to Batgirl during the one year gap?).


A: Because amongst the subjects Cain teached early on, he became nuts and had to be put out of his misery hence Mad Dog. The dude was a menace that had to be put down. Except he wasn't. We call him Mad Dog because that's what the Bronze Tiger called him. There was no name given to him other than that by Ra's and Cain.

A: She was dangling over a Laz Pit! And the panels after Cassie tossed Shiva into the pit focused alot on the hook. Add that with the "Sorry Mom" line from Cassie plus the focus on the hook ripping the skin and costume of Shiva.. put two and two together = Shiva's shoulder ripped and Shiva fell into the pit fully healed.

And that's not the books fault.. the book ended with Cassie walking the path of possibly a hero or anti-hero. That's DC's lack of answering these questions in Robin which they HAVEN'T. After all how in just a year Cassie could:

Q: Read?
Q: Take over the League of Assassins?
Q: Develop long speech patterns?
Q: Plan things so perfectly? (If there was many things a schemer Cassie was not)
Q: How she'd find out about her sister?
Q: Why was the revelation of the sister the last straw?

See how many questions the actual issue of Robin #150 brought up more than the actual final issue of Batgirl?

[Damo]

A: Because amongst the subjects Cain teached early on, he became nuts and had to be put out of his misery hence Mad Dog. The dude was a menace that had to be put down. Except he wasn't. We call him Mad Dog because that's what the Bronze Tiger called him. There was no name given to him other than that by Ra's and Cain.

I'm sorry. I really must insist that from now on everyone call him "The Mad Dog" or "Mad Dog Cain".

It's not much an improvement over just "Mad Dog", but... he needs every little bit he can get.


Q: Read?

Actually I think we're meant to think she could read and write all along. Do you know how you send messages in Navajo (At least messages that start with the word "ant")? You Figure out what the navajo word means in English. Wol-ah-chee. Ant. You take the first letter of that english word. "A". Then you do the same thing for the next letter in the message. One by one you get the letters that way, until you get something like this:
A-N-Y-O-N-E-B-U-Y-T-H-I-S-C-R-A-P

So my interepretation is that when Tim says that Batman taught them navajo, he means that Batman taught them how to send messages like that in navajo.

For a character that's meant to be profoundly dyslexic, that's... wow.