What would Superman think of the current immigration issue?

[Crash-Man]

Honest question.

We've been discussing the place of politics in comics on the Marvel forum a lot recently. Seems a lot of readers appreciate the presence of real-world political considerations in their superhero series, while others detest it.

The discourse popped into my mind yesterday while I was reading about the current immigration protests in the US. I've read and understood both sides of the issue, and keeping my opinions to myself, I figured that ole Supes would probably be a great metaphorical device to explore the issue.

After all, he's something of an illegal alien himself. He came to Earth seeking refuge, was harbored by residents of Earth who his his presence from the authorities, and then went on to provide a service that greatly benefitted his newfound home. He's welcomed other aliens to Earth and helped them settle in.

Conversely, countless threats have landed on Earth the way Superman did. Many have remained hidden, only to strike at opportune times,or to gradually destabilize systems on Earth. Some have been criminals, others a general burden on the planet.

So...would Superman see parallels between the border issue and his experiences with aliens (and as an alien) over the years?

And what do you think his opinion would be?

[Crash-Man]

This image of Hyperion (http://www.comicsvf.com/scans/vo/supremepower/1.jpg) comes to mind.

[Hellcow]

In most comics, most of the hero's, particularly Superman are presented and defenders of the status quo. So that being the case Superman would just be a TOOL for George Bush. The only time he would go against the status quo would be if George changed his name to Lex.

[Bat-Mite]

But considering Superman himself is an illegal immigrant, why would he do that?

[chriskenny]

He would say that American businesses should stop exploiting the desperation of the illegal immigrants. He would support the right of any person to come into this country for opportunity, but to do so legally so that they are not paid 1/5 of what a citizen would. I think he would have interest of the immigrant at heart, but would openly want them to do the right thing, for their sake.

[Crash-Man]

But wouldn't he have to lead by example and go public with his origin and identity?

[Yoda]

But wouldn't he have to lead by example and go public with his origin and identity?

The public knows his origin, at least the Krypton portions

[Daniel Lewis]

The public knows his origin, at least the Krypton portions

I agree. And that would give him legitimacy in the eyes of the public (well, more than he has, anyway).

[Matt]

Superman, above all, is a humanitarian - always looking out for the welfare of his fellow Earth dwellers whenever possible. Superman would definitely by on the side of the immigrants, though he would most likely limit his actions to writing thought provoking pieces in the Daily Planet.

[NotSuper]

In most comics, most of the hero's, particularly Superman are presented and defenders of the status quo. So that being the case Superman would just be a TOOL for George Bush. The only time he would go against the status quo would be if George changed his name to Lex.
Not really. He certainly doesn't defend the status quo in Birthright, which is his last canonical origin (things may have changed now). Waid spoke about this in the trade. And if you look back at the original Superman, he was definitely anti-status quo. He was something of a populist and a hero to the working class. Heck, most of his enemies were politicians and the rich.

[NotSuper]

Superman, above all, is a humanitarian - always looking out for the welfare of his fellow Earth dwellers whenever possible. Superman would definitely by on the side of the immigrants, though he would most likely limit his actions to writing thought provoking pieces in the Daily Planet.
Well said. And he certainly can do a lot of good for immigrants in his civillian identity. But I'd think he would inspire immigrants to greatness as Superman, too. He's a good role-model.

[Alex A Sanchez]

He would say that American businesses should stop exploiting the desperation of the illegal immigrants.

Its funny that this is the angle most people on both sides of the argument seem to miss. Supporters of immigrants usually are in favor of some action that will allow their exploitation to continue. Opponents rarely list the termination of exploitation as a reason- most cite school and hospital funding problems.

That being said, I think that Superman (mostly as Clark, as people have said before) would fight for a way for immigrants to legally earn a fair salary. He might spend his time as Superman fighting the political and millitary corruption in Mexico and other South American countries, giving the citizens of those countries less incentive to migrate to the U.S. in the first place. Most people don't want to leave their home- situations have to be pretty damn desperate for people to risk their lives to sneak over our borders.

While Busiek's current storyline is okay, I would much rather read one about Superman dealing with an issue like the immigration one at hand. Waid did this in Birthright, and it worked fantastically.

[Rylon]

Its funny that this is the angle most people on both sides of the argument seem to miss.You are, unfortunately, very right about this. On my campus, I've noticed some groups who have historically fought for labor workers rights essentially fighting for the continued exploitation of immigrants.

I would personally enjoy seeing Superman take a trip to South and Central America and give hope to people down there.

[Agentum]

I think he is going to be crazy and run around in superspeed and burn everybody.

[Be Stiff]

The orignal Superman - the one fresh in the 1930s - was a socially aware man of action. That one would have probably been extremely pro-immigrant and extremely anti-explotiation to the extent of stories showing him beating up crooked buisnessmen and burning down sweatshops.

I'd get a kick out of that, actually.

[Love Machine]

If Superman really existed, in this media savvy age he would be the most listened to person in the whole world, politicans would have little choice but to agree with the big S since his approval rating would also be 99%

So he should keep his opinions to himself to adviod upsetting the political process...

[NotSuper]

If Superman really existed, in this media savvy age he would be the most listened to person in the whole world, politicans would have little choice but to agree with the big S since his approval rating would also be 99%

So he should keep his opinions to himself to adviod upsetting the political process...
Makes sense to me. In fact, I remember Maggin stating in one of his novels that Superman never openly supported a candidate (even when he wanted to).

[Alex A Sanchez]

If Superman really existed, in this media savvy age he would be the most listened to person in the whole world, politicans would have little choice but to agree with the big S since his approval rating would also be 99%

So he should keep his opinions to himself to adviod upsetting the political process...

I'm not so sure about that. Will Smith is resented by many people because he is a moral "goody two shoes". I'm sure there are a lot of people who would resent Superman just because he is such a boyscout. For example, if Superman were to speak out against marijuana he would earn himself instant hate from every pot head in america.

[NotSuper]

For example, if Superman were to speak out against marijuana he would earn himself instant hate from every pot head in america.
I don't think Superman would even publicly speak out against that. He might as Clark Kent, but not as Superman.

[Adrian Tullberg]

I'd like to see a scene where a bunch of media pundits are testing Superman's demographics ...

[BoosterBronze]

I'd like to see a scene where a bunch of media pundits are testing Superman's demographics ...

Imagining that scene makes me sad.

If Superman was real, he would inspire no one. He would be attacked by both sides becasue he remains neurtal, and VH1 would have a daily clip show where third rate comedians make jokes about Superman saving people.

[Lorendiac]

I think Superman would agree in principle that every national government has the "right" to make its own laws limiting or totally preventing immigration by foreigners. And if they have the right to make such laws, then they have the right to enforce them -- using some degree of force to make it stick, if need be, in a particular case.

On the other hand, if the federal government suddenly asked him to personally start patrolling the Mexican border in the Southwestern states on a regular basis, arresting everybody he could find who was trying to cross the border by avoiding government checkpoints, and who didn't have proof of U.S. citizenship or a green card or something to show he belonged on this side of the border, then I expect Superman would suddenly say, "Cough cough -- I think I hear the Titans calling for help on an ultrasonic frequency. I'm urgently needed to help save the world again! We can pick this conversation up again some other time! Bye!" And then he'd be gone from whatever government office he was standing in, faster than a speeding bullet . . .

[NotSuper]

Imagining that scene makes me sad.

If Superman was real, he would inspire no one. He would be attacked by both sides becasue he remains neurtal, and VH1 would have a daily clip show where third rate comedians make jokes about Superman saving people.
And yet, he'd still continue to save people. That's just the kind of guy he is.

Getting back to the topic, is there a list of all the Superman Elseworld stories that've been written?

[Lorendiac]

And yet, he'd still continue to save people. That's just the kind of guy he is.

Getting back to the topic, is there a list of all the Superman Elseworld stories that've been written?

Try this one:

Elseworlds Checklist (http://www.eskimo.com/~tegan/aqua/else/)

[NotSuper]

Try this one:

Elseworlds Checklist (http://www.eskimo.com/~tegan/aqua/else/)
Thanks for the link.

[Ontir]

As the ultimate "illegal immigrant," I think he'd be helping them.

[Lorendiac]

As the ultimate "illegal immigrant," I think he'd be helping them.

I don't see it that way. After all, he has an extremely convincing excuse that most illegal immigrants don't have: His entire native nation (Planet Krypton) no longer exists, except as a bunch of space junk that glows in the dark with powerful green radiation that could kill him very quickly if he ever went back. If, say, the nation of Mexico ceased to exist -- except as a radioactive wasteland where anyone stuck inside its borders would die within minutes -- then I'm sure Superman would vigorously oppose any effort to round up Mexican "illegal immigrants" in the USA if the purpose of the exercise was to bounce them back over the border to Mexico and let them quickly die of radiation poisoning.

But in the present day, I doubt he would use violence to stop INS from rounding up illegal Mexican immigrants and deporting them back to Mexico. He wouldn't see that as a gross violation of their "human rights" (such as the right to keep breathing air that won't kill you within the next few minutes).

[Ontir]

We see things differently. I for one, think the notion of an "illegal" immigrant in America is preposterous. Very few of us citizens by birth, are descended from "legal" immigrants. I think the bulk of this current issue is racism/classism blown to excessive proportions, while comfortably ignoring all the factors, like the American businesses that have for decades, and continue today, to bring people in, either directly or by word of mouth, to do jobs that no American would do, or the horrible WTO policies which codify and exasserbate poverty in nations like Mexico.

[Rylon]

like the American businesses that have for decades, and continue today, to bring people in, either directly or by word of mouth, to do jobs that no American would do,While I agree with much of what you're saying, I have a nit to pick.

Many Americans are willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants do. Americans do those jobs in places where illegal immigrants aren't numerous. What the businesses are doing is hiring immigrants for wages that are illegal under existing labor law. People died for things like the 8-hour workday, the 5-day work week, and the right to collective bargaining. Hiring illegal immigrants allows business to blackmail their employees. If the employee complains, they risk deportation. In someways, the working conditions are so bad not because the job itself is bad, but because the employer doesn't have any incentive to make it better for employees who can't complain.

Ironically, opening-up our borders might actually slow-down immigration. Once the immigrant goes from illegal to legal immigrant, they can complain and take advantage of labor laws like everyone else. The incentive for hiring them in the first place disappears.

[Lorendiac]

We see things differently. I for one, think the notion of an "illegal" immigrant in America is preposterous. Very few of us citizens by birth, are descended from "legal" immigrants. I think the bulk of this current issue is racism/classism blown to excessive proportions, while comfortably ignoring all the factors, like the American businesses that have for decades, and continue today, to bring people in, either directly or by word of mouth, to do jobs that no American would do, or the horrible WTO policies which codify and exasserbate poverty in nations like Mexico.

I'm not absolutely sure what you mean when you say "very few of us citizens by birth are descended from 'legal' immigrants." You might, for instance, be referring to the fact that various North American Indian tribes were running around before the Europeans started colonizing and immigrating - but it's not perfectly clear. Some of my own ancestors immigrated to North America before there was a separate nation called the United States. Just English colonies on the East Coast; that sort of thing. Several more of my ancestors immigrated from various European countries to the USA, in accordance with U.S. immigration law as it existed at the time, throughout the 19th Century. So I'm not sure how you would count each of those groups.

I also have some Cherokee Indian blood in my veins. Not much, but I do have it. If all else fails, does that count as being descended from "legal" immigrants to North America? :)

Let me point something out: The original question was not "How does each of us feel about the immigration issue?" It only asked what Superman would think of it. Given that Superman usually does not feel the need to use his superpowers to "overturn" existing laws, I felt he would basically feel obligated to just sit back and let each national government around the world make such laws about immigration as that government saw fit, and that he would generally "respect" those laws even if he might disagree with the exact letter of the law, and/or how it was enforced, and/or how the current situation was exploited by other people, in particular cases.

How I personally feel about immigration policy is an entirely different subject - and, to be perfectly frank, I haven't really studied immigration policy in any great detail. For what it's worth, I don't lose any sleep over the remote possibility that illegal immigrants are going to break into my home and cut my throat any time soon.

[Ontir]

By "Legal," I mean people that came here, at a point when such a notion had been imagined, and were checked in and processed by some authority, set up so to do.

Whether coming from people who migrated, or sailed in. Many Americans are from a line whose arrival would today be technically referred to as "illegal."

Do all "illegal" immigrants do jobs that Americans won't do? No. There are those who have skills that allow them to do better than the lowest menial jobs that are still a major element of the work done by the majority. These intense back-braking jobs, done for very little money, are the jobs that Americans won't do, and that's not a solely American phenomenon. This exists all across the post-industrial world, and will likely continue for some time to come.

One of my friends says, "We just don't have anyplace to put these people. I say that's untrue. We still have states in which homesteading is an active policy, and many people with agricultural backgrounds who could be enticed to move to these places, and develop them properly and sustainably. We are moving toward the Hydrogen Economy, and there are a number of new means, by which hydrogen can be attained, through modern farming and extraction processes. They could be part of our withdrawl from the oil binging, which WILL become problematic in the not too distant future. Both China and India have rapidly expanding economies, and as they do, their people begin to use more and more oil. They also have vast populations, and the faster we ween ourselves from that fuel source, the less likely we are to be drawn into conflict over it.

Ultimately, America is not propelled by homogenization. We've always brought the most eager, the most driven, and most ingenious in as the fuel of our Kaos engine. That's what makes us vibrant, and will continue to do so, if prejudice and fear aren't allowed to overtake our essential identity.

[NotSuper]

I wonder if the Golden Age Superman ever tackled this problem? He'd have likely fought the guards that keep people from crossing the border.

[IamtheRock3]

He may actully go to thier country every now and then and try to help out


So they wouldnt have to come over here.

[Mulett]

He supports the American way. You can draw your own conclusions.

[Ontir]

I think the inscription on the Statue of Liberty would have a great deal to do with his definition of "the American Way."

[Hellcow]

I think the inscription on the Statue of Liberty would have a great deal to do with his definition of "the American Way."

Does the current "American Way" involve the Americans telling the French where they can stick their statue?

[Ontir]

I think we've had it long enough that it's OUR statue, certainly!

Besides, the current anti-French sentiment will pass. It's part of the love/hate symbiosis we share with them. We wouldn't exist without them, and they wouldn't exist without us, and we both resent each other for it, while deep down we're just filled with philadelphia!

[marshal99]

If Superman tackles the subject of immigration ? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/supes1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/supes2-1.jpg

[dancj]

I'd like to see a scene where a bunch of media pundits are testing Superman's demographics ...
In Nancy A Collins's run on Swamp thing someone nominates Swampy as a Mayoral candidate, and the media decide - based on a comment from Jim Gordon - that Batman backs Swamp Thing. That helped his ratings no-end

[Lorendiac]

It's been over a year since I participated in this thread. I'd pretty much forgotten about it. I had to go back and read my own posts (and all the others, natch) to refresh my memory of what it was all about. Interesting to see it reappearing after so long.

Just in case anybody cares: the opinions I expressed last year regarding how I would expect Superman to feel still make a lot of sense to me today! :)

[Samurai]

In most comics, most of the hero's, particularly Superman are presented and defenders of the status quo. So that being the case Superman would just be a TOOL for George Bush. The only time he would go against the status quo would be if George changed his name to Lex.

Considering Bush is for amnesty and against protecting our borders and arresting illegal aliens, it would fit in with his illegal alien status, if that's how you see him. However, I see him more as a refugee sent here to escape imminent death, and America has special considerations for refugees like that. (It's how my dad got here).

[botch]

Smallville dealt with this last season and I LOVED IT because typically Superman is a law abiding generally leaning to right wing politics, even if he is apolitical, but this episode just felt like superman would really act, he'd look at the issue more from a world view and existensial point of view rather than a logical/country political view. He cared about life first. And alot of it was naive because he wasn't thinking of 'what about every other immigrant', but it was such a superman reaction, the way he cared about the issue then and there and cared more about the moral aspect as if politics didn't exist.

[dancj]

Smallville dealt with this last season and I LOVED IT because typically Superman is a law abiding generally leaning to right wing politics,....
He is?

[botch]

no the way i mean it is that he isn't like someone who says "i am left wing, I am right wing", he is a guy raised with ideals that generally fall under right wing politics. Think of it the same way that Green Lantern/Green Arrow classics dealt with it. Green Lantern had these ideals that were generally right wing till Green Arrow put a different spin on it that made him think. It's the same with Supes, the Naivity.

[botch]

no the way i mean it is that he isn't like someone who says "i am left wing, I am right wing", he is a guy raised with ideals that generally fall under right wing politics. Think of it the same way that Green Lantern/Green Arrow classics dealt with it. Green Lantern had these ideals that were generally right wing till Green Arrow put a different spin on it that made him think. It's the same with Supes, the Naivity.

[botch]

no the way i mean it is that he isn't like someone who says "i am left wing, I am right wing", he is a guy raised with ideals that generally fall under right wing politics. Think of it the same way that Green Lantern/Green Arrow classics dealt with it. Green Lantern had these ideals that were generally right wing till Green Arrow put a different spin on it that made him think. It's the same with Supes, the Naivity.

[dancj]

So good he said it three times ;)

I'm not sure I agree though. Supes has always made a point of sticking up for the little man which is more of a left wing thing

[The Batman]

Seems to me that Superman would probably favour whatever solution aided to most people. He might also have some notion about America being able to use its vast resources more wisely to aid people all over the world. I mean, that's what he does isn't it?

[jhauge]

I would think Superman/Clark would also be concerned by the US worker who sees his wages go down because he/she has to compete with illegal construction crews who don't pay taxes and underbid by a wide margin.

Also, as Clark, he would write trying to persuade Mexico to enable economic reforms that would make it more desirable for the Mexican worker to stay in Mexico.

[jhauge]

Seems to me that Superman would probably favour whatever solution aided to most people. He might also have some notion about America being able to use its vast resources more wisely to aid people all over the world. I mean, that's what he does isn't it?

I would think he would want the thugs and dictators to start spending money on their people instead of buying weapons that are used to kill their people. I have always thought of Superman inspiring others to do good instead of relying on him.

[lovefist911]

Since he's an intergalictic wetback himself, I don't think he'd give a rat's ass about the subject.:D

Politics, religion and fags DO NOT BELONG IN COMICS.

[Magneto_X]

Not really. He certainly doesn't defend the status quo in Birthright, which is his last canonical origin (things may have changed now). Waid spoke about this in the trade. And if you look back at the original Superman, he was definitely anti-status quo. He was something of a populist and a hero to the working class. Heck, most of his enemies were politicians and the rich.

It's to bad that's not canon. One of the best Superman origin, IMO.

[The Batman]

I would think he would want the thugs and dictators to start spending money on their people instead of buying weapons that are used to kill their people. I have always thought of Superman inspiring others to do good instead of relying on him.


I would think Superman/Clark would also be concerned by the US worker who sees his wages go down because he/she has to compete with illegal construction crews who don't pay taxes and underbid by a wide margin.

Also, as Clark, he would write trying to persuade Mexico to enable economic reforms that would make it more desirable for the Mexican worker to stay in Mexico.

I think that either of these options would safely fall under the category of "solution that aids the largest number of people."

That being said, whatever his feelings on the subject this is probably the sort of thing that Superman would let people, at the big picture level at least, sort out for themselves. If he solved this problem for us, much like with something like war or world hunger, he'd probably have to cross a line that he doesn't want to cross and the human race would start to become, at best, subjects, and, at worst, children.

[PatrickG]

I don't see how anyone who's read Superman comics thinks of him as right wing...

He's in favor of scientific utopianism. He busts up slumlords and dictators. He's never done more for the military than Bob Hope has. He's explicitly not a Christian. He had premarital sex. He opposes the death penalty.

His parents are liberal populists.

I don't think of Superman as a leftwinger...

But if you were to classify the "big guns", Batman would be the rightwinger along with Hawkman... And Superman would be a leftwinger along with Green Arrow.

I really think some people just look at the pictures and think a white, smiling guy with a conservative haircut waving a flag must be a Republican.

[Fil-El]

Superman goes further than politics made by men, he's a force of good who has devoted his life for the common good of people not only in earth but everywhere in universe, i think he will always be the voice of the people, cause as we all know he's been raised with a strong moral , and if he had to adress this problem with a left/right wing point of view , he would put Clark to work ,writing for the people, looking for their benefits trying to come up with solutions where everybody can be livin' in harmony

[jhauge]

He busts up slumlords and dictators.

I am curious as to why you think this is "liberal" or "left-wing" issue. Most left-wingers appease dictators and don't do much to discourage them. Granted, they talk big about the human rights abuses and such, but don't actually do anything to solve the problem.